12:42pm: Verlander himself sounds as though he’s expecting to open the season on the injured list (Twitter link via Rome): “I would say it would probably take a miracle for me to be back by Opening Day.”
12:07pm: The Astros have shut right-hander Justin Verlander down for the time being due to a “mild lat strain,” general manager James Click tells reporters (Twitter link via Chandler Rome of the Houston Chronicle). There’s no timetable for when Verlander will resume throwing yet, and the organization is uncertain as to whether Verlander will be ready for Opening Day.
There were far worse potential outcomes as Houston fans braced for the worst when Verlander exited yesterday’s start and went in for an MRI. Indeed, Click indicated that, “By and large, the news we got today was on the positive side.” While any injury to a starter of Verlander’s caliber is problematic, the lack of any tearing or structural damage in his arm surely came as a sigh of relief. That said, it’s still a discouraging development for a team with mounting questions on the pitching staff. If Verlander proves unable to take the ball come Opening Day, one would imagine that fellow veteran Zack Greinke would get the nod in the season opener. But beyond Greinke, the Astros are looking at Tommy John returnee Lance McCullers Jr. and the relatively inexperienced Jose Urquidy in the third and fourth slots in the rotation.
Presently, Austin Pruitt and Josh James are the presumptive front-runners for the fifth spot in the rotation, but both could be start games early in the season in the event of an IL stint for Verlander. Alternatively, the ’Stros could look to use an opener early in the year. Click, it should be noted, was hired out away from the Rays earlier this winter — the organization that pioneered the opener tactic at the Major League level.
One in-house alternative, right-hander Rogelio Armenteros, has already been shut down due to elbow discomfort. Brad Peacock has yet to throw in a game this spring, as he’s been slowed by neck pain. He’s been slated for bullpen duties anyhow. Other options could include right-hander Cy Sneed or lefties Framber Valdez and Cionel Perez. However you want to judge the race for the final few spots, an Astros rotation that until very recently was a legitimate powerhouse now has more questions than answers. And at this point, it’s not as if Houston can simply go out into the free-agent market and plug a starter into their staff. Jason Vargas, Clay Buchholz and Andrew Cashner are among the unsigned names of note, but Opening Day is a mere 15 days away; none from that bunch would be ready in time.
Perhaps Click and his staff will explore other avenues, but no one should expect a proven big league starter to be on the move at this point of Spring Training. And with the Astros about $23MM over the luxury tax threshold as it is, they don’t seem likely to take on any sort of meaningful salary. Waiver claims and deals for veterans who opt out of minor league pacts elsewhere could help to replenish the depth, though, and it wouldn’t be a surprise to see the club make any moves along those lines.
thorshair
More like he’s scared to pitch in the road now
cards04
Doesn’t apply but ok
One Bite Hotdog
NL games, yes
samthebravesfan
Oh those scary fans making noise and waving their little signs. Boooooo! Boooooooo!
madmanTX
Uh huh. Let’s see how scary it is in Yankee stadium with drunk fans throwing batteries at his head.
hiflew
How is that different than any other year?
8
LOL Batteries, Maybe the Trashtros should all wear those protective helmet hats.
Rudy Zolteck
Are you really going to pride yourself on people acting like animals? Like… why is this part of your argument? You’re not making the other side look better than the Astros man
lsujedi
Madmantx won’t find out till late September
MasterShake
Mets fans and John rocker come to mind
Halo11Fan
What’s taking pride?
I hope people are very loud. I hope the Astros get booed and ripped from the first pitch to the last.
No profanity, no objects, but plenty of verbal abuse.
The fans are the ONLY people holding these cheaters accountable. The louder, the better.
Whodoirootfor
Nah that is philly
sdsny
Astros might want those batteries for their buzzers.
Rudy Zolteck
Taking pride in people who throw batteries, like he said…?
brian214
Your mom must’ve fooled around with a Philly fan for you to be fixated on them.
Bart Harley Jarvis
jus,
Don’t be a nudnik.
Boogaloo
Apparently you haven’t been to Yankee Stadium since the 80’s. You can’t drop a hot dog wrapper there without security all over you.
oldoak33
Thorshair
He doesn’t work on a chain gang, ya nincompoop.
davidk1979
So stupid why don’t you think?
DockEllisDee
every time I pitched in the road everyone would yell “CAR!!” if there was one coming
Rallyshirt
There’s a bunch of gnats swarming around that trash can. Oh, a lat injury. I thought you said gnat, and how about that trash can over there?
ScottCFA
“Mild lat strains” frequently turn out not to be so mild. Months can be easily lost. Hope for the best, but prepare for a longer IL stint.
yogineely
Yeah I remember syndergaards mild lay strain from a couple years ago
jleve618
And he knew his body so well too!
Chief Two Hands
Quite frankly everything that is negative for the Astros seems like karma at work. I don’t believe in karma, but I don’t have any sympathy for the Astros in general. Verlander is one, in particular, who has admitted he knew about it but was not man enough to speak up until he had to. Weak.
dynamite drop in monty
Ratting out your mates doesn’t come easy to all of us, kid.
papasmurf25
Whatever happened to honesty is the best policy ?
Prospectnvstr
Papasmurf: Like you haven’t kept your mouth shut when either you, a relative, a co-worker, a friend have done something EITHER wrong, illegal, against the rules or policy?
oldoak33
So you not only tell the truth 100% of the time, but you also offer your opinion 100% of the time when you know wrong has been done, even if that means confronting your superiors and large groups of peers?
hiflew
It got replaced by snitches get stitches.
Boogaloo
That’s true, but not everyone runs their mouth about everyone else’s problems either like Verlander did. That’s why people are going after him and not other guys who kept their mouths shut. Most people don’t expect you to eat out your teammates, just like guys in the steroids era who did nothing don’t get heat for not saying anything. But when you need to comment on every guy on other teams who gets arrested or breaks the rules while you’re team is pulling off the biggest cheating scandal maybe eve, better expect people to attack you.
HubcapDiamondStarHalo
Is there a LOT of “eating out of teammates” going on?
dirtbagfreitas
Hahahahaha I’m dead.
Halo11Fan
So telling the truth is ratting out your mates.
What kind of crummy moral universe to you live?
oldoak33
We found the guy that volunteers money every time he exceeds a speed limit, doesn’t stop three seconds at a stop sign and always uses his turn signal. He never did an illicit drug, never drank underage, and pays 100% of the taxes he owes. He’s reported family and friends when witnessing infractions, as well as teammates or classmates who have cheated or broken laws.
He also pays it forward at Starbucks 75% of the time. He’s your unicorn, Halo11!!!!
McGurk
Your team is filled with trash cheaters congrats
hiflew
It’s called the real world. In the real world, nobody behaves perfectly. Even the people complaining about the Astros.
Halo11Fan
So let him volunteer money unconditionally. How about his world series and playoff shares.
The Astros stole money. I’m suppose to fell better about them because they give some of it away?
hiflew
So if Fiers is such a good guy, why did he wait until after he left the team and joined a division rival before he said anything? He had plenty of time in the past two years to say something, but didn’t.
And BTW, has he given his money back yet?
Zoar
he told because when he went to pitch in Houston the started doing it against him and he said hell no I was a teammate and kept you secret and now you disrespect me. good for him
brian214
It’s called being a team leader and heading up a players only meeting. He didn’t have to go to mgt or the media.
oldoak33
Chief Two Hands, everything bad for the Astros is karma. Everything good cheated for. Arbiter of clubhouse morality and situations he wasn’t present for. Spends his days looking for weakness and fault in others.
And again, doesn’t believe in karma, but wants you to know that it sure seems like karma.
Chief Two Hands
@oloak33..you posted one of the most ridiculous responses I have read. Complete nonsense. Also, seems you completely missed the point.
oldoak33
No, I read you loud and clear, and responded in kind.
Chief Two Hands
Nah, just stupidity.
oldoak33
Says the guy that wrote
“ Quite frankly everything that is negative for the Astros seems like karma at work. I don’t believe in karma, but I don’t have any sympathy for the Astros in general.”
Did you think of that by yourself?
jonnyzuck
it’s funny, he was so critical of players that cheated with PEDs but when his guys were cheating his lips were tight as a clam
oldoak33
That’s 100% valid criticism.
stevewpants
I know you guys don’t care and this is the pop culture version that mixes up karma and fate, but none of this is how karma works. It’s a much different proposition than “one day something bad happens so the next time something bad happens its related.” That’s not what it means at all. – Our destiny was shaped long before the body came into being.
Patches O’Houlihan
Wrong, winners make their own destiny.
stevewpants
Philistine
Chief Two Hands
I make my own potato leek soup. I use an immersion blender. Pretty good stuff.
pinkerton
I guess he hurt his lat bumping into the trash can
TickingTurtle
Brilliant and original.
dugdog83
That’s no way to talk about his wife!
oldoak33
Your significant other must be a real smoke show.
pinkerton
Joke’s on you! I don’t have a significant other.
oldoak33
Comment was directed at dugdog. I hope you find the person of your dreams soon.
Prospectnvstr
Pinkerton: That explains the HOLIER THAN THOU attitude that you display. Wonder what skeletons reside in your past or even in your present.
pinkerton
Wow. This got deep.
Halo11Fan
Skeletons? I bet it’s less than grand theft. If perfection is the criteria for judging, our society would collapse.
pinkerton
@Halo11Fan, thanks for being a voice of reason. Skeletons? The only people holier than thou are those who judge others. I’m talking to you, @Prospectnvstr.
We all have skeletons, we’ve all sinned, we’ve all committed crimes. We all go to the bathroom the same, put our socks on the same. No one’s better.
Except the Astros. Everyone’s better than them.
Prospectnvstr
Making a “joke” out of someone’s injury is truly not funny at all. Yes, the Astros cheated. Yes, they should be booed by those who choose to voice their views by that measure. Seriously, how many MILLIONS of trashcan “jokes” do people have to say before they realize it’s not humorous AND how mundane they really are?
thatdudetg
Karma.
Dorothy_Mantooth
Verlander is super human and will heal 2x faster than most pitchers with this injury. Expect to see him by mid-April at the latest, on his way to yet another Cy Young worthy season.
dirkg
As a baseball fan, I’m hoping he has a fast recovery. The realist in me says he’s a 37 year old pitcher who can ill afford a lat injury. Syndergaard, Kershaw, and Sonny Gray are 3 recent pitchers who have battled lat injuries with moderate success. Here’s to hoping JV has better returns….
Halo11Fan
He had a lat strain half a dozen years ago. He went on to lead the AL in runs scored and a four and a half ERA.
I’d like history to repeat.
Sealbeach Comber
Yep, an arm injury to a 36 y.o. pitcher is nothing to worry about. And, sure, Cole is gone and Verlander is hurt, but you still have 37 y.o. Grienke.
tigerdoc616
He had something like this while with the Tigers in 2015. He missed about 2 months then. Hopefully he misses a lot less time this go around.
twentyforty
Lat strain. 90% of all upper body injuries in pitchers are elbow or shoulder related no matter what nonsense comes from a club to the media.
oldoak33
Hey there, genius
The proximal attachment of the lat is in the shoulder, and plays a role in both acceleration and deceleration during overhead throwing.
Rudy Zolteck
Gotta love the armchair physicians doubting diagnoses as conspiracy theories
The Human Toilet
Something trashcan.
Nailed it!
ryanw-2
Even without the cheating scandal, sooner or later the Astros were going to take a step back. And my feeling has always been that it’s going to start with Verlander showing his age. Someone else will take over the division soon, whether it be the Angels, A’s, or possibly the Rangers with their rotation makeover. I think it’ll be a very different division this year.
Paulie0514
Sad trombone
mro940
He’s 37 years old. It’s not karma, it’s called age catching up with him.
10 years ago there used to be pretty legit baseball talk in the comments section. MLBTR might want to consider just removing them all together…
YankeesBleacherCreature
Definitely difficult to sort through with most comments being complete nonsense. There are many better outlet options for some to release their internal angers. MLBTR is not one of the them.
McGurk
This is a perfect venue to remind everyone that the Asterisk are cheats and until they show true remorse, it shouldn’t stop. If journalist and mlb won’t hold their feet to the fire, then it’s up to the fans to do so. Vacate the title, bring down the flag.
prov356
McGurk – I’m fairly certain the Astros are not reading the comments on MLBTR. The only people suffering from the constant nonsensical reminders are those of us who want to move on and enjoy the upcoming season and comment about the actual content of the article written.
McGurk
Oh, so we should just move on right? Good one Asterisk fan. The only relevant Asterisk topics is that they cheated and their lack of remorse or in the rare case that they decide to do the right thing and vacate their fake title and bring down their flag.
oldoak33
McGurk
What’re your hobbies?
prov356
McGurk – I’m an Angels fan and look forward to a competitive AL West where we have a chance of making the postseason. Again, glad to know you’ve lived a spotless life and are the right person to stand in judgement.
I’d be interested to know how you will react when something happens that actually affects your life. Let it go and enjoy the season. It’s been discussed to death.
McGurk
Not defending a trash franchise . Is that your hobby?
Rudy Zolteck
“There are many better outlet options for some to release their internal angers. MLBTR is not one of the them.”
[next guy immediately starts using MLBTR as an outlet to release internal anger]
it really just writes itself at this point.
McGurk
When you see a post about my life in mlbtr, feel free to comment about it. Until then, feel free to read the comments section or not. You guys act as if the fans are the ones that cheated. Your mad at the situation, blame the players, they are the ones who cheated and they are the ones who want it to just blow over
Rudy Zolteck
[releases more anger when called out for using MLBTR to express anger]
prov356
oldoak33 – my guess is poor McGurk spends a lot of time in his safe space in his mom’s basement petting his comfort hamster while gently sobbing over those mean cheating Astros.
oldoak33
McGurk
I’m not an Astros fan, but I will admit that seeing you coming unglued over something you can’t control and have nothing to do with is fascinating.
McGurk
Lol unglued, you don’t have a clue. Just doing my duty as a fan.
McGurk
Prob – Drawing from your own experiences I see. You seem awfully vested in this for being an Angeles fan.
prov356
McGurk – Vested? Read my comments again so you understand what I am saying. Most people have moved on and I suggest you do the same. It’s old news that has been discussed to death. Time for the 2020 season. Enjoy baseball in the present and stop wringing your hands over the past. You’ll be happier.
dirkg
Unfortunately the comments issue is not isolated to MLBTR; it’s the entire internet. There are people who wake up every day wanting to throw a brick at the rising sun. The internet provides them a forum to throw bricks at people instead.
…
I just ignore trolls and seek out intelligent baseball fans (MLBTR is the only app I comment on).
hiflew
The problem is that 10-15 years ago, the internet was still fairly new and being used by people that didn’t grow up with it. I’m not trying to sound like an old man yelling at a cloud here, but the current generation has never known life without a constant tether to the rest of the world. Having 24/7 access to the rest of the world is taken for granted by the people born in the 21st century, because they don’t know a life without it.
And before anyone say it, no I am not a boomer.
scurvyrickets
I comment and read all over MLBTR, and have no issues except with the trashtros. The people that comment on Cubs articles are great and about baseball…except the few Sox trolls. Maybe, just maybe it’s that people are pissed the trashtros cheated. That’s not gonna die down anytime soon. So if you’re a trashtros fan, than i suggest you get your big boy pants and deal with it.
Rudy Zolteck
I mean, you can’t really tell fans to put their big boy pants on and then sound really hurt and call the team elementary school-level names in the same comment lol
Finlander
Has Forrest Whitley shown progress this spring? He’s had his bumps, but he seems to belong on the potential SP candidate list. An internship under Verlander and Grienke might be more valuable for his refinement than whatever else he learns in the minors.
Chief Two Hands
I am very surprised that Greinke has not spoken out about the cheating. I definitely respect his intelligence and therefore his opinion. His silence so far is as much of an indictment as anything. If there was any innocent at all he would be speaking.
Rudy Zolteck
Why? He keeps to himself these days. He was only on the team for two months of the regular season + October in 2019. Unless you subscribe to the buzzer theory lol
hyraxwithaflamethrower
Another day, another injury to a SP. Is it just me, or does it seem like there are more pitching injuries than usual this year?
McGurk
Couldn’t happen to a trashier franchise or a morally corrupt player.
TellItGoodbye
Karma baby.
Mazinger31
It feels like there’s been a lot of injuries this spring. Like more than normal. Maybe it’s just more pronounced because there have been a lot of bigger names that have gone down with injuries.
Halo11Fan
It’s like this every year.
Sealbeach Comber
Cole is gone. Verlander is hurt. Grienke has a ton of miles on his aging arm. And the offense doesn’t figure to be quite as potent w/o coach trashcan on the team. Astros looking vulnerable in 2020.
oldoak33
Hi Sealbeach
The one year where we know the Astros used an illicit sign stealing operation was 2017. That year over 60% of the players with over 300 PAs had better offensive output on the road (when measured by OPS and AVG). Team runs scored per game, HR per game also higher on the road.
I hope you take actual evidence into consideration, or maybe come up with data that supports your argument.
Sealbeach Comber
So, you think Altuve just held onto his shirt (instead of celebrating a series winning walk-off HR) because he has a third nipple or something? You probably thought the courts got it right in the O.J. case too.
Buzz! Buzz!
Endersgame
You are not even going to consider the option that Altuve is just not comfortable being unclothed in front of other people? Some people genuinely are not comfortable with that, not everyone shares the same values.
To be clear, I am not in any way saying that Altuve for sure is innocent. All I am saying is that there is a very real possibility that, winning hit or not, Altuve was not comfortable with his teammates pulling his shirt, because of a little something called modesty. But you aren’t willing to even consider that?
Sealbeach Comber
There are plenty of pictures of him online with his shirt wide open (I guess he’s not that modest, eh?). But, in your mind, this was just situational modesty, right?
Come on. Look at the video again. It’s all over youtube. He was more worried about his shirt than celebrating a walk-off series winning HR. Then, instead of celebrating right away with his teamates, he goes into the clubhouse and changes first.
Maybe the MLB never found the buzzer. Maybe no Asterisk player admitted it. But, he was buzzing.
Buzz! Buzz!
Rudy Zolteck
This is what happens when you hit a home run off the Yankees. You get accused of needing James Bond tech to be good at sports.
oldoak33
Sealbeach
Why don’t you look at the evidence that actually exists instead of referencing an idea that came from a random twitter account? Acoustic and witness evidence from 2017 supports the claim that Altuve didn’t participate in the scheme. Couple that with his home and road splits from 2017. He was a better hitter on the road.
I find it hard to believe that someone that won an MVP in the face of his teammates cheating, and did the right thing by not participating, would then divert to a full on wearable tech sign stealing scheme, one that would’ve had to involve a secret camera and a secret room with a monitor.
For me the greatest tragedies to come out of this are
1) the Astros produced more overall offense on the road in 2017. They didn’t even need the scheme.
2) so many great stories from that year have been negatively affected, including the Astros helping to heal the city after Harvey.
3) José Altuve becoming the modern day shoeless Joe Jackson. He was innocent, I’m convinced of it.
dirkg
Old oak, your subjective tone of using facts lends me to believe you’re a reasonable person.
…
The report showed the Astros admitted to cheating in both 2017 and 2018 and stated there was evidence of cheating on the road as well as home. Banging on a trash can was just one method they used for receiving signs (whistling, bullpen hand gestures, etc. were all brought up). While the home trash can setup had an additional camera and a guy on a laptop viewing that camera, the Astros replay team had real time video access home and away. This replay video was at the crux of Manfreds initial statement where he slapped the Sox and the Yanks on the wrist.
…
And then, being a reasonable person, ask yourself if they had tremendous success (and got away with it) in 2017 and 2018, why would they suddenly stop in 2019? Google “Robinson Chirinos buzzer” and see for yourself.
Rudy Zolteck
What’s the source that enumerates the other methods? They were already cleared of whistling, I thought. And that would imply they weren’t electronically stealing signs anyway at that point because this would have been included in the scope of the investigation.
Also, how would a band-aid thing at the end of his bat be noticeable to Chirinos (felt in his hands) during a World Series game but also be subtle enough (as in, quiet enough) to not alert the umpire or catcher? Why didn’t they stop play when it fell off? Why would he go out there with it on the end of his bat where they could see it? These are all questions that need to be answered if that theory is supposed to be credible.
oldoak33
DirkG
“ The players also continued their rule-breaking in 2018, after Beltrán had retired and Cora had left to become manager of the Red Sox. While The Athletic and MLB’s investigation found no evidence of the Astros using the trash-can banging system in ’18, Manfred’s report said, “the team’ replay review room staff continued, at least for part of the 2018 season, to decode signs using the live center field camera feed, and to transmit the signs to the dugout through in-person communication.”
The cheating in 2018 had to do with decoding of signs with “Codebreaker” and relaying signs to the dugout to pass to a runner on second. It wasn’t a live feed-live sign operation.
Also, video rooms on the road are generally inside the clubhouse, which are dozens of yards away from the dugout. The home video rooms are often conveniently set up in close proximity to the dugout. In the 2017 Astros case, a makeshift laptop and monitor setup existed under the dugout that acted as a portable video room. Dugouts like the Red Sox have had a video room directly next to the dugout for years. In Houston 2017, players would use the monitor on the wall/table with live feed to read signs.
I can’t imagine a setup that would be concealable from home security staff (when Astros were on the road), bat boys (that work for the home side but are in visiting dugouts), in dugout police officers, and grounds crews. I think this theory is absurd. It would be virtually impossible, and certainly so in 2019 where there were no live feeds allowed under the dugout or in either clubhouse. 2018 saw the advent of increased monitoring and access to live feeds as well.
I understand why there would be skepticism, but I think Beltran and Cora were the driving forces, and once they left players didn’t feel the pressure to involve themselves in these schemes. That of course is my opinion based on stated evidence provided by players granted immunity and also the batted ball evidence that exists from 2017 when we know for a fact that the scheme was used.
Regarding the Chirinos sticker, it was confirmed immediately after the incident by the Astros authenticator (Mike Acosta), that he had placed the authentication sticker on Chirinos bat days prior after a HR. Then, we would be forced to believe if conspiracy theories are true, that a player would put a buzzer on the end of his bat, a location easily visible and susceptible to removal or destruction by impact.
This theory also demands players using buzzers in the open when concealable locations exist everywhere for a “buzzer” to be placed. Under a wrist band, under shirt, pants, socks, or best would be under compression shorts or jocks.
A'sfaninLondonUK
Hello oldoak…
Then why do it? I’m just as sure as you are that your research is correct.
A brilliant ballclub (in 2017) utterly sullies it’s crowning glory by cheating according to your analysis UNNECESSARILY!
Your argument is as baseless as the one you are attacking. But none of the Astros apologists are capable of comprehending this.
its_happening
Because other teams are doing it? Are we still in-denial over other team’s cheating?
Halo11Fan
WereAllJustGuestsHere
So are you saying because you don’t catch everyone, you don’t punish anyone.
Taking this to an extreme,
There is at least a 80 percent chance you’ll get away with shoplifting. Since we don’t punish all shoplifters, why punish any?
Any time there is wrong doing, some people will get away with it. So don’t punish people who get caught?
It’s not a very thought out response.
its_happening
Halo – no. How you came up with that is nonsense. The point is people, like you, have overblown this entire situation. Yes the Astros took it too far. They have been punished. What more do you want?
You of all people shouldn’t be one to judge; a player on YOUR team took something too far and it cost him his life. Is that what you hope for regarding the Astros? Where do you draw the line?
But cheating, illegal activity and breaking rules will continue in this game. The next method of gaming the system has started. But your overreaction toward the Astros is appalling and so are your takes on the Angels crapping pitching staff.
When you have a real thought please let us know as we’re still waiting.
oldoak33
Hi A’s fan
I encourage you to use the Fangraphs page of Marwin Gonzalez. Use the splits tool, and filter for 2017. You’ll find that Marwin, who was the worst offender based on acoustic evidence from 2017, suffered the most from the scheme. Then ask yourself why a hitter would use something that wasn’t benefitting him. The answer is more nuanced than you’d think, because Gonzalez clearly was not benefitting from it.
You can then extrapolate from there using educated guesses, and take the time to do the same filtration process for the data of hitters with a large enough sample size. I would say over 250-300 PAs per player would suffice.
The answers may surprise you. While it won’t answer all your questions, you should leave this exercise with a perplexing conclusion. Why did they do this? Why would a team risk everything for a net 0 result? For me I believe it was peer pressure/leadership influence, and a belief that it was helping to win games.
McGurk
Did you happen to read the “Friction less Banging Scheme” article on fangraphs as well?
Pretty much asserts that the such a scheme gives players a bunch of small advantages that they leverage through out the game, We all know that in short series even getting a single extra run can make a significant difference.
Incidently it never answered a question that I have had since the saga started. We all know that there are two pieces of data that are sent via catcher signals. 1) Type of pitch 2) Location. Every article or analysis has been on what a player can do while knowing that a certain pitch is coming, but not much has been done with knowing the location or knowing both of those data points.
oldoak33
McGurk
There’s no denying that there are benefits to knowing which pitch is coming, and that’s why you see an improvement in whiff and K rates at home in 2017. But if you believe for one second that a single player on that team was willing to risk punishment and shame to see their whiff rate go down while their AVG, SLG, and OPS remained neutral, you’re out of your mind.
I know people love to harp on the team cheating aspect of this, but no one on that team was risking their reputation so they could be a good teammate and sacrifice for the betterment of the team. Ball players, like 98% of professionals on this planet, are selfish and wanting the best for themselves. And I don’t mean that in an apathetic or evil way.
Sealbeach Comber
oldoak33
Bang! Buzz! Bang!
oldoak33
A’sFan
I forgot to mention this. Maybe you don’t like what the data suggests, but that makes your assertions baseless, not a flaw in data.
Sealbeach Comber
I wonder how much the shady Asterisks are spending to have trolls come here and put their damage control spin on things.
Rudy Zolteck
People who disagree with you on the internet =/= trolls grandpa
Sealbeach Comber
Ok, here’s one now. How much do you get paid?
Rudy Zolteck
Ausmus burner? I mean, I didn’t say anything wrong. I said that people who disagree with you weren’t sent to mess with you personally or cause a reaction from you. They just think you are wrong and explaining why.
Sealbeach Comber
When you’ve got nothing to say….just go with gibberish, eh?
Rudy Zolteck
What confused you about what I said?
Sealbeach Comber
How much do the shady Asterisks pay you to put their damage control spin on every post?
Rudy Zolteck
Lol this is such a cope, “guy disagreed with me online so he must be paid PR” like ok man, feel free to return to the conversation. I wasn’t even doing damage control, I just thought it was stupid that people are like durrrr karma because they’re mad about something unrelated to Verlander’s injury. What is so hard to get about that?
Tigernut2000
And everyone said the Tigers got screwed. Lol
toooldtocare
Obviously Astros cheated to gain an advantage against other teams. As a season ticket holder of another AL West team, I certainly hope all the boo birds do not disrupt the games when the Astros come to town to the point that other fans can’t enjoy the game. I believe true baseball fans will not, however if they do and are seated close to me, expect to be called out. And one other point, true baseball fans would not levy death threats against any player for any reason.
Sealbeach Comber
I agree with you about threats. That crosses a line.
However, I think it’s every fan’s DUTY to let the Garbage Pail Kids know that cheating their way to a ring marks them forever as tainted cheaters. I hope more pitchers wait and just let the fans boo the heck out of them (especially Altuve) all season long…and maybe longer.
I’m guessing Altuve and Bregman won’t be seeing quite so big endorsement checks for, well…..forever. And that’s how karma works.
Rudy Zolteck
So fans have a *duty* to boo them? Lol you might need a new hobby man. It’s becoming clearer the more you go on.
Sealbeach Comber
It’s becoming clearer that you are a damage control troll for the Asterisks.
Rudy Zolteck
Lol since you don’t understand the meaning of trolling and think that everyone who doesn’t share your opinion just exists to make you react, then yeah it’s getting fun to keep explaining why you’re getting disagreed with in the first place.
McGurk
“Manfred takes issue with the notion that anyone in the Astros organization avoided punishment. Says faces of Astros players show “they have been hurt by this” and will be faced with questions of what happened in 17 and 18 for the “rest of their lives.”
From Yahoo article, apperantly it is up to the fans to boo and heckle the players.
Rudy Zolteck
Ok you have the right to boo them and we (everybody else) have the right to say you’re acting really hurt by it and using the internet to vent your anger. It’s a fair exchange.
McGurk
I think you are in the minority but it’s okay. Just as long as you know where it’s coming from. We have been over this before but Asterisk fan conveniently forget.
oldoak33
Hi Sealbeach
Is MLBTR the place where paid trolls would spend their time arguing with people like you? I don’t mean to be offensive, or downplay your influence in the real world. Just doesn’t seem like the right platform to spend time.
prov356
I think SealBeach and McGurk are the same person. They say the same stuff and misspell similar words.
Sealbeach Comber
Buzz! Buzz!
toooldtocare
I don’t have a problem with just booing them, but when the language turns uncivilized around women and children, that’s where they will have a problem with me
Frisco500
Their garbage can played through all sorts of injuries.
Sealbeach Comber
MVGC
mack22 2
Karma for the Astros, feel bad for Verlander tho
Frisco500
Why? He was probably on roads or something. Cole too. Not sure why everyone assumes it was only their hitters cheating.
Rudy Zolteck
I’m on roads every day just like him when I go to work and my FB velocity sucks
Iknowmorebaseball
What’s really going on here is that Verlander is stressed out. He is not able to come out and pitch because he knows that the fans do not like Astro players because they are worthless cheaters and he is embarrassed that they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Simply the man is suffering from shame and facing humility right now.
prov356
Or maybe he has a lat strain.
yes
Nelson laugh, Cheaters..