Under the agreement the owners and players made in March, Major League Baseball has the ability to implement as long or short of a regular season as it wants. There are some notable conditions, though, including: The league must pay players full prorated salaries, it must act in good faith to play as many games as possible, and commissioner Rob Manfred would need approval from 23 of the game’s 30 owners. It’s in question whether he would receive that amount of support, Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich of The Athletic report (subscription link).
“There are definitely more than eight owners who don’t want to play,” one player agent told Rosenthal and Drellich.
It may be a moot point. Manfred is not required to force the start of a season, and according to Rosenthal and Drellich, it doesn’t appear his office will do so over fears of a potential billion-dollar grievance from the union. In a letter to the union Monday, deputy commissioner Dan Halem left the players with three choices: 1. Waive your right to file a grievance in regards to the March agreement; 2. Go to arbitration; 3. Keep negotiating.
A quick arbitration case may not be desirable to the union or even possible because of the money at stake and the number of witnesses who would be involved, per Rosenthal and Drellich. That means the only chance for a season may be for the owners and players to finally put their vast differences aside and hammer out a deal that works for both sides. It’s difficult to imagine that happening with the way talks have gone so far. Both sides have accused the other of acting in bad faith during their negotiations, which took yet another negative turn Monday when Manfred did a 180 from last week and expressed doubt in regards to a potential 2020 season.
Manfred’s comments led to a heated response from union chief Tony Clark, who said, “Players are disgusted that after Rob Manfred unequivocally told Players and fans that there would “100%” be a 2020 season, he has decided to go back on his word and is now threatening to cancel the entire season.”
Many of those players, including Nationals ace and influential union member Max Scherzer, joined Clark in voicing their disgust Monday.
Thankfully we have golf. Even with Zander and Morikowa choking at the end, that was a pretty good 1st tournament back.
I was rooting for Xander…that was painful to watch. Berger deserved it, tho. He made the shots.
No disrespect but I find the consolation of golf akin to being told after an amputation – “Oh at least you’ve got the other leg.”
Well said!
Everyone else missed clutch putts on 18. Berger made his to get into the playoff.
I was rooting for anyone not named Bryson.
For me being on the golf course rivals the mood of being at the cemetery. They are full of beautiful manicured grass.
In times of Covid 19 there’s generally more action in a cemetery. Thus far I’m yet to see one miss the hole though, so it’s a little more predictable.
(My apologies if it’s too early for such a joke – I’ve lost a 98 year old WW2 veteran relative to Covid 19 and he shared (inspired my humour) stay safe & hope for meaningful baseball)
Take it to Gold Trade Rumors guys.
The players keep saying “tell us when and where”
like they will accept whatever is offered then they turn everything down at the same time.
Which is it?
I’m not saying they “should” take whatever’s offered….but stop saying “tell us when and where” then.
I agree with this
What’s wrong with the players getting on the field ASAP and then letting the grievance process handle the differences? Seems like a reasonable course of action to me.
What field? If the owners aren’t scheduling a season players on a field doesn’t really do anything.
The starting 9 can have a nice socially distant picnic in their playing positions. Shifts will have to be banned. They can have a competition to see who can bake the best cake.
At this rate this might be the only competition we see this year, so I suggest we enjoy it and they bring their best cake game with them…. And all the NL fans enjoy no DH! Win – win….
What people don’t realize is that the owners are using this opportunity to cleanse away their mistakes. Their commitments to pay certain players a bunch of money for bad contract’s, it’s similar to a fire sale. Lowering the team payroll.
I’m not sure you understand that the when and where is for the start of the season. They’re done fighting and want to go back and play on the earlier agreement where they’ll get paid for every game they play. Which isn’t ideal because some of the lower paid players will even have to give back some of the salary they were advanced earlier in the season with how little games are played. This is coming from Evan Marshall (a relief pitcher of the white sox) in one of the most recent SoxMachine podcasts. They wanted to negotiate and all talks have been a non starter for both sides. I honestly love all the players getting fired up on Twitter. This has been a disaster for MLB ownership and the league.
There is a negotiated framework from March if the union and owners could not work out a compensation deal… Full prorated salaries for 48-54 games. There are still health issues to be resolved but those can be addressed during ST-2. So the players are accurate, Have the owners tell the players where they want them to meet for ST and when… Simple as that… It’s what the MLB agreed to in March before that idiot Manfred screwed this up..
Health issues can’t be addressed. If a player get this, they can easily be shut down for a month. If a team gets this, prior to the playoffs, then playoffs will be played by Joe Shlabotnic and company.
What incentive do the owner have? The risk vs reward is rather small.
Manfred has acknowledged that players don’t have to concede to additional cuts, claimed unilateral authority over the schedule, which he stated would include 48-50 games, and has also stated “baseball will 100% be played”.
The owners proposals have all fallen within a few percentiles of the total dollar amount required to pay full pro rata salaries for 50 games.
I don’t understand why the owners and Manfred can make these statements and offers without players assuming the negotiations reached an impasse, with the only possible outcome being for Manfred to do what he said he would.
Mrpadre, I don’t think you understand. The players have accepted pro-rated salaries; and want to prepare for games. They have agreed to what was offered, the owners now want to pay less.
This doesn’t seem like it should be hard to understand.
Sure if you ignore the fact that the agreement clearly says they would renegotiate if fans weren’t in the stands. Without that part they wouldn’t have needed any sort of agreement in March because it says in the CBA that players will only get paid for the games they play in the case of a suspended season due to an emergency.
Ender, I’m not sure that the fact you say is clear, is actually clear. I think that is the major point of contention, no?
I read that a MLB lawyer admitted that the players do not have to accept less than pro-rated salaries.
There is a reason the owners want the MLBPA to waive their rights regarding a grievance. .
Where in the agreement does it “clearly” state that?
The Players want what was offered, and what was offered is the owners could amend the agreement if the game was not played in front of fans.
The players don’t want to agree with what was offered. They want to take away the rights of the owners.
Agreed MrPadre!
‘tell us when and where… and give us the money’ That’s what is should say.
If only we could be given a glimpse of MLB teams books, making it possible to predict yearly profits as well as the losses from this shutdown, it would be much easier for the players to negotiate and for us to pick a side. I’m not siding with those crying poor while all signs point in the opposite direction
We do have a glimpse of their books.
The Braves lost money. Depreciation expense is a real thing. And they did that with a couple very favorable contracts and no millstones around their necks.
When Disney owned the Angels, they lost so much money they couldn’t justify the losses to their share holders and sold the team losing in the 100 million dollar range. And the Angels won the World Series.
That’s a glimpse, not close to a full picture, but it’s a glimpse.
They’re saying “when and where” essentially because they know the negotiations are going nowhere so they’re leaving it up to Manfred to say how many games, when and where so they’ll get their full prorated salary for however many games he decides. It’s not rocket science.
They’re saying when and where to put pressure on Manfred and the owners to accept the original agreement of prorated pay.
@mrpadre19
This comment so much…..
The reason the players union said this is the sooner it happens, the sooner they file a grievance.
I don’t see why we can’t just open stadiums up if we’re gonna let people mass protest in the streets burning buildings and stopping traffic.
Stop the facade
We gave the idea of social distancing the finger long ago.
Open up and let the people make the choice whether they want to isolate or not.
It’s the most logical thing to do at this stage.
Rob Clownfred needs to go. His short-term focus is as long as his tiny penis.
How do you know this?
I have insider knowledge.
And you know this how?
That’s a interesting obsession you have…
Hubcap, remember the Don Ho song Tiny Bubbles? I saw shorty’s (curious why he goes by shorty btw) post and that song came to mind.
Keep what you and Rob do in the bedroom off the board.
They only compare their “focus”
You and Rob should keep your sexual encounters to yourself..
It’s now June 16. There’s not gonna be much of a season to have if they don’t figure out something very very soon. Early hopes said opening day “between mid June and July 4”. Bunch of greedy idiots
They stated extended training would require 21 days before a season would start. So even if they signed an agreement today, the season wouldn’t start until July 8th. That leaves 84 days until the end of September. Judging by the animosity between the two sides, it’s fairly safe to say this season is over.
Wrong math. Spring training is going to be 1 month minimum. By the time they get on the field to play the first spring training game it’ll be a week from today and as soon as three days from today. players are scrambled all over the country and need to assemble and that takes time and because of travel and preparation July 16!!
Wrong math? The math is not wrong. 21 days from today is July 8th. I’m simply telling you what baseball said, and they said 21 days to prepare to start the season. Now, what you think and what they said are two different things. And if these players aren’t prepared to be somewhere in 1 day, then something is wrong.
Yap – was a huge fan of MLB. Went to 8 spring training games.
Now well NACAR, golf, and basketball are back. Football is starting in August, who cares about baseball.
P.S paid my subscription to MLB TV and no games and no refund.
Who has that money?
I called and they issued a refund in March.
I am calling this week
Seriously. I want my money back, too.
Not watching any sport if players are kneeling during the national anthem.
What’s your stance if they’re making out during the national anthem? Or do you have to wait for some nutjob on YouTube to tell you your opinion on that one first?
How about we just don’t ruin baseball with political posturing. They can kneel on the field after the game until everyone leaves the stadium for all I care.
Quite obvious they’ll let Max know when to report once they reach the timeframe where about 50 regular season games will be played. This whole situation is silly.
I don’t know how a persistent demand to have the shortest season possible, followed by the longest post season ever (where owners make most of the revenues) could be perceived as good faith bargaining. That’s aside from the merits of each side’s economic proposals. It’s clear that is a core vulnerability of the Owners in trying to gain the benefits of the rest of the agreement, and a primary reason why they fear a grievance. And, if it’s true that more than 8 owners simply don’t want to open at all, this isn’t going to be solved. In that case, the Owners would probably claim that no service time accrued, and perhaps they’ve also calculated that they would rather have the economic advantage of that, rather than play. Difficult for fans to stomach this, but this is business, hard-ball or not.
Well instead of saying “no more discussions” the players could actually come up with something besides “mohr games mohr proration”. Owners proposed (effectively) “play 70, get paid for 50… then get paid for another 8-9 based off of playoffs”… players should respond “how about paid for another 15 based on playoffs”… or something of that ilk, not just “tell us when and where so we can file a grievance and keep this going”. Players aren’t giving up a dime either
The longer this goes on, the less season there is to play, so time works in the owners favor as long as they can maintain the extra-long playoffs. I don’t think the players quite grasped that at the time…they relied on the “good faith” part without doing the math. Whatever the players do propose is obviously less than what they thought they bargained for in March. It’s likely that any solution is going to have them take considerably less. This will make bargaining the next CBA that much harder.
I think had the owners been willing to engage in a negotiation, the players may have moved off fully pro-rated salaries.
it’s akin to negotiating to buy a house, It’s listed for 300k, you get an offer for 120k. Why respond to that?
But if you get an offer for 260k, you’ll likely make a counter-offer.
The owners have overplayed their hand, but they don’t realize it yet.
Fool me once, shame on you (’94). Fool me twice (2020), shame on me.
In the final analysis, it’s all about what WE do with OUR money that matters. I’ll still have an interest but they will get very few, if any, of my dollars before the 2022 season now.
I’m going to golf more. Hopefully, after that, I will be too tired to even bother watching much more than highlights.
For those who remember further back, I vaguely remember it happening when I was little, circa 1981.
Prorated salaries on an 81 game season. Make it happen! TV revenues will be through the roof.
TV deals are already set for all the teams that don’t own their own stations, like the Yankees owning the YES Network.
Agree with @ Joe says – TV deals are done and dusted. Advert revenues, however?
“Done and dusted”
Love it!
Premier League tomorrow, Come on you Toffees!
Manfred needs to be fired and I’ve seen #FireManfred on Twitter. It’s a losing legal hand when you tell the other side you won’t proceed unless they drop the option of filing a lawful and negotiated right to file a grievance… Manfred’s comments on Monday are grounds for the MLBPA to file a grievance.. It’s unbelievable the box canyon the MLB’s negotiating team has ridden into. Fire the whole negotiation team and replace them with people who will strike a deal… Or pay the players a billion dollars..
Manfred is just the owners mouthpiece. Firing Manfred does no good until the owners realize how much they are hurting themselves.
Manfred is just an employee of the owners, essentially. A new commissioner would do little good in this specific situation.
Who cares what people on Twitter say? They’re always on some kind of witch hunt trying to ruin someone.
I don’t understand what the end game for the owners is. If they don’t play this season, it’s not like next season is a guarantee either (the virus won’t just disappear).
And, of course, the CBA expires after the 2021 season, so any season after that is in doubt.
Don’t the owners realize all they are doing is making their franchises less valuable? It’s as if the owners don’t care if they lose as long as everyone else loses too.
Someone with some common sense needs to have a discussion with these people. They are not any more sane than the folks running the anarchy zone in Seattle.
There may be other consequences as well. Someone in Congress is sure to bring up Anti-Trust. A lot of MiLB teams are being cut, and the Reps in Congress of those towns might be more willing to punish the owners. The players did the right PR and negotiation thing by saying when and where.
Bham, the players are saying one thing and doing another. They’ve killed all PR with their hypocrisy.
no the owners want the players to actually take a pay hit since they are going to lose money
They would need to open their books to prove they are losing money.
technically no. Owners may only be forced to open their books if they take the negotiating position at the bargaining table that they cannot “afford” to pay. A subtle, but important distinction from publicly saying that they are losing money.
Who is going to lose money? The owners?
I read an analysis that at most, each team would lose about $10 million. This, when franchises are worth a billion +.
The owners are in the process of destroying their own product, and they don’t even seem to notice or care.
Baseball in some form will continue to exist. But anyone out their wanting to start a new league of expand an existing Independent League has to hope the MLB owners continue to be stupid.
I really laugh at comments like yours. The franchises aren’t worth billions until they go to sell them.And if someone is willing to pay that price
Interesting comments from Max, MLB has been offering the “how” but it’s been rejected before it gets to the “when” and “where”
I don’t understand the player’s disgust. If they want to just be told when and where, why didn’t they just accept the first, second, third, or fourth proposals? They could have been halfway through Spring Training by now.
Owners, players, they all look terrible in this.
The MLBPA accepted the first proposal and signed an agreement. It’s the owners who don’t want to accept it.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Because the agreement said in two places that they would renegotiate if there couldn’t be fans. How hard is that to understand? Tony Clark didn’t understand what he was signing, told the rest of the players it was a done deal and now he is digging in so he doesn’t look like a fool.
Doesn’t change the fact that the owners should give in for the good of the game. This is really hurting the league badly and it has much longer repercussions for the owners than for the players.
None of this is actually about this year though. The last offer by the owners was only 280m away from what the players want for 72 games. This is about digging in for next year’s CBA discussions. Both sides are trying to win two battles here and it just makes neither side want to bend at all.
They are negotiating the unknown. 2021 isn’t a guarantee for fans to attend either. They had a n agreement to negotiate a deal if fans could not attend in 2020 and the union reneged? Why would their behavior be different for 2021. No way owners move ahead without addressing that too.
If we could somehow sticky Smokin Joe Charboneau’s question and endermlb’s answer it could save a lot of redundant comments…
Because, “Smokin Joe”, that’s not what happened. The original agreement included the assumption that fans would be in the stands, and that the season would be “business as usual.”
Remember, in mid March, there was no idea Covid would be around by now, let alone that restrictions would be in place through the summer.
It included “renegotiation” clauses if the situation were to change. It changed.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Greedy idiots reject every offer from the owners and then whine that Manfred now thinks there may be no ball at all. Typical union tactic. Disgusting.
71 game season. 85% of the prorated salary. Expanded playoffs with players receiving 40% of the postseason income from television rights. If fans are allowed in the stands at any point, players receive 50% of the gate (regular season and postseason) into an escrow fund starting at the date fans are allowed up until the full prorated salaries are met to make players whole. Owners then receive all funds after that point.
Let’s play ball.
“The tough thing about playing chicken is not blinking first”( Scott Glenn). This is one big game of chicken, and the owners and players greed and unwillingness to compromise could end up ruining the game:
Don’t waste your money on MLB anymore folks… the fans are the ones getting F***ed the most…
#boycottMLB
#boycottbaseball
This is a really good example of why unions do more harm than good. The MLB players union is a selfish bunch of greedy A-Holes who don’t care about baseball or the players. All they really care about is their dues going up each year so they can get their slice if the pie without putting any skin in the game. Players risk their health and owners risk their fortunes but the union just sits back and complains so that they can continue to collect dues and appear relevant.
If I were an owner I would recommend one last chance for the players to agree to a deal and if they don’t just start the season with minor leaguers. If the stars never come back to the game, it would take 4-5 years of minor leaguers playing before guys like Trout and Scherzer would be forgotten. The league would be populated with young players who make reasonable salaries and who are more affordable and entertaining to watch.
The way of the world, show up for work or get replaced.
They can’t start the season with the minor leaguers. The minute they open up the camps, the regular players will show up. If they don’t let the players in, that would be considered a lock out. If that were so, players would get their full salaries. As far as playing minor leaguers what good would that do if there are no fans in the stands? National television contracts are based on major league games being televised. ESPN, FOX , and Turner aren’t carrying minor league games, at least not under the existing contract. Ditto for the local regional networks. NBC Sports Philadelphia isn’t going to spend money carrying games of Phillies minor leaguers. Without TV, there would be no reason to play without fans.
You misunderstood me. They cease to become minor leaguers the minute they put on a major league uniform. Thus the games televised would be major league games. Current major leaguers will be at home crying about their millions because the union won’t let them play.
This isn’t basketball or football where the stars are irreplaceable. Nobody is going to miss the old crusty players. Fans want to see young players have fun playing the game and will have no problem embracing the next generation of talent. Nobody will miss Trout or Bellinger or Snell. Those guys will be coaching high school baseball wondering why they let an idiot like Tony Clark control their future.
But the players would show up. If the players are willing to come to work, management can’t turn them away. If they do it would be considered a lockout, not a strike. Therefore replacement players can’t be used since the teams have locked out the players. Even if considered a strike, where would you get the players? No team is going to bring up their top prospects and risk tarnishing them as “scabs” forever. The fringe players that would be disposable have already been released. As far as the networks, I am sure they have provisions exempting them from carrying scab games. And why would ESPN wish to carry these games? Assuming the NBA agrees to the Orlando plan, they will be busy enough carrying the NBA playoffs. They wouldn’t and probably wouldn’t be contractually obligated to carry minor league players dressed up as major leaguers games. It is a total non starter
“Unions do more harm than good”
You must be a Right-to-Work kinda guy. These player associations have precious little in common with unions. Individual contracts, players making more than managers, some players making more than 70X the pay of other players, are but a few pieces of evidence that they are not your grandfather’s union.
Unions is why we didn’t have PED testing and why so many baseball records are now worthless.
I’m from Detroit. Unions killed are auto industry. My wife has a Masters in Education, and the teachers unions have killed public education.
My brother in law was black-balled because he did a little extra work, he was pulled into the office and was told he was too-union. He was in his 40s.
He had to move out of Indiana, away from his family, to California and live with his parents until he could establish himself somewhere else.
Is that you Bill James ??
At least we still have cocaine.
Thank God for that!
As much as I love baseball, life goes on. I’ve found so many ways to spend my time on other things which I thought I couldn’t be possible with baseball. Hopefully, baseball is able to save face and a season happens but they have to realize fans aren’t idiots and will move on.
That’s what sports leagues really need to worry about: a new normal is quickly setting in. People are finding new ways to spend their free time, rediscovering simple things like spending time with their family at home, and the longer it goes on, the less interest their will be in returning to some of those old luxuries.
Time to throw in the towel on 2020. I love baseball; it’s the only sport I follow. But I’m more likely to lose interest long term if they do play now. I really have no interest at this point in a half-season with disgruntled players compiling stats that no one will ultimately take seriously, competing for penants which no one will ultimately take seriously, whether playoffs occur or not.
Prediction, no baseball in 2020and owners and up negotiating a new CBS this winter addressing the financial !landscape created by Covid19. It will include salary caps and an agreement for revenue participation by the players while part of those $ bring allocated for minor league players. After missing an entire season of pay, players will soften their positions.
The 8 owners: Rays, Pirates, Indians, Royals, Tigers, Marlins, Mets, A’s. Those are the known scumbags that should be forced to sell the team to someone who cares. Who else do y’all speculate doesn’t want to play?
Orioles, Mariners, Rockies ( especially the Birds).
Also teams like the Angels that have injuries.
The players are the scum bags.
The players expect the owners to have a season this year where not only do they not make any money, they lose money they made in previous years.
What if the owners told the players “You have to play for free this year and pay back everything you made last year and maybe the year before.”
This is exactly what the players, and financially illiterate fans such as yourself, are expecting the owners to be willing to do.
What’s your source? The word “speculate” in your question has me confused whether this is fact or assumption.
Remove the rays. Low payroll and a contender.
Add the giants. High payroll, aged players on a non contender, bad contracts it’s nice to lose a year of.
Don’t focus JUST on low revenue teams, although they do make up much of the likely 8.
Also think about teams that would love to see a year of bad contracts wiped away when the service time clicks but don’t have to pay a dime to do it.
great point alt-
Sf is biggest beneificiary this year, Hou for other reasons
Of course there is not one word from either side about the fans. it’s all about them and their pocketbooks.
Except for the part where Max Scherzer, a union representative, is clearly quoted above as saying, “This isn’t fair to the fans.” But, you know, don’t let the facts get in the way of your pre-determined decisions and blame.
I sincerely doubt Scherzer meant it though. Just a throw in for PR purposes
OK, does it matter? I was just pointing out that the original commenter was completely wrong and the counter-evidence was a short scroll away. For the record, I’m of the opinion that every public statement from both sides is a throw in for PR purposes.
My hope is in Jeff Passan. Lord help us all.
I hope you are joking
What is sad, is sports ( baseball included) is no longer a distraction from the bad events of 2020. Yesterday I put on Michael Kay and they were talking about the Coach of Oklahoma State’s tee shirt and Black Lives Matter. I had a 10 hour day at work, and I needed to unwind and relax ( from work and hearing about politics). I immediately turned the TV off and put on Led Zeppelin to listen to instead.
In Through The Out Door
Anything by Zeppelin except Coda is great
I choose that one because of Breaking The Rules or Doing Something Wrong. It was to be taken in Pun.
The Baseball World & The Whole U.S.A. For That Matter, Has Gone Crazy/Breaking The Rules/Doing Things Backwards.
I’m a Floyd Fan Myself as you should be able to tell by my Username & Profile Picture. Animals is my favorite Album, Dog’s is my favorite song off that Album & my favorite Floyd song is Echoes, the Album cut of course.
I like your idea, put on some music & float away for a while & clear our minds a bit.
Paul Revere and the Raiders dude
I bet you love Bron Yr Aur Stomp then ! (correct spelling/was mispelled on album)
As a dog and Zep lover myself I just recently learned it was about Plants blue eyed Merle collie…. adorable
Bron Yr Aur might be the best 2 mins of of pure instrumental ever created imo
Coda was bad but did give us “Bonzos Montreux”
I’m old…pull out the old Simon and Garfunkel, myself…..
Is that a euphemism?
While I think it could be said that the owners and players have great need for being more reasonable, Rob Manfred is a disgrace. Going back on his word from 5 days ago. The players said “tell us where and when”, and Manfred went back on his WORD. Terrible. He’s in the pockets of the owners, just like the government is with corporate America. In a situation like this, he is supposed to look out for the best interests of the sport, and the fans, and arbitrate this nonsense. I have hopes the players might just say “fine, we won’t file a grievance if you set a season of at least 50 games”, and that it still might happen. But Manfred has revealed his true colors… he is all but owned and controlled by the owners, an extension of them basically. He is a total disgrace, and deserves to be called out on that. Harshly. Until he does what he said he would do all of 5 days ago.
Things have changed in five days. Several players have already gotten this virus.
That’s a month of missed time. There are no playoffs if teams gets this.
If you could guarantee playoffs, there likely would be a season. You can’t, and the players want to get paid as if the playoffs are guaranteed.
@Halo At some point, some level of the virus going around has to become acceptable to people. Are we going to cancel everything and stop living our lives for the next several years, or however long they tell us to? I have read enough that a working vaccine is not likely to be that effective, even if one became available in the next 18 months, which is doubtful.
That’s way too much time to stop living, with a huge percentage of people unemployed, for a virus with that high of a survival rate outside of the sick and elderly. My mom is in a nursing home where workers have gotten COVID, and none of the residents have. Because precautions like masks work. Precautions around the sick and elderly are appropriate, and can save the lives of those at high risk, without locking down life and everything that makes life worth living for a ridiculous amount of time for people who are healthy enough to enjoy their lives. There are more important things than longevity, and COVID death totals are not the only thing that matters. People die every day. Longevity means very little without happiness and quality of life. This is the greatest robbery of life in human history. I hope we find our courage, dignity, and common sense at some point before we realize how costly it is to hide from this virus for as long as the plan might be for all of us to be forced to. Suicide from depression will take more lives than COVID eventually if higher perspectives don’t start to consider how destructive this mindset is to our way of life and collective health and well being. Sickness and death are a part of life. Hiding from sickness and fear of death destroy life and turn people into cowards without any joy or freedom. This isn’t the plague.
Suicides are already up 40%
He never gave his word!! He made a blanket statement – his opinion. Now he is saying he was wrong. Or he changed his mind. But he never promised anything!
Just cancel the season and say see you next year..
I blame the owners more than the players.
Seems like the owners want to renogitate the earlier deal.
Just pay the players pro rata for the games they play. If they play 81 games, they get 50% of their salary.
But the players don’t look good either.
Average Americans, watching 40 million umemployed, think both sides are greedy
They are right.
A pox on both of them.
If they can’t get it together and play during a national emergency (like WW II) to hell with both of them.
I love baseball, but hate this end of it and they will lose me for good.
Three strikes (this would be the third) and you are OUT.
It the players who want to take away the rights of the owners.
It was agreed that the players could revisit the deal if fans were not allowed to attend games.
That is not a minor caveat. Since fans are not allowed, it means the virus is still active, and if the virus is still active the playoffs are in jeopardy. Multiple players have tested positive, and one positive player in the clubhouse could translate into dozens.
Why do so many people completely ignore that.
HaloFan is correct. Many on this board are overlooking this fact.
“The Office of the Commissioner and Players Association will discuss in good faith the economic feasibility of playing games in the absence of spectators.”
That doesn’t equate to “renegotiate this deal and/or our salaries”. Its very much “we can either play or we can’t”. The players offered avenues to increase revenue, in an effort to make it more “economically feasible”. The owners didn’t accept them. It may seem they are stuck on the players taking a pay cut. That’s not really an accurate representation. They are stuck on what percentage of overall salary they are willing to pay, regardless of actual games played. That number seems to be just below a third.
“Economic feasibility” has been discussed by both sides. No agreement to alter the March 26th agreement was reached.
The 3/26 agreement also says: “the possibility of playing a reasonable number of regular season games beyond the initially scheduled end of the regular season” The owners are firm they will not have regular season games past 9/27. Is it fair to say they discussed the possibility? I think so. Owners don’t think its possible. The players do. Another point they could make no agreement on, so the status quo remains.
The players are now telling ownership to put forth a schedule, as agreed to, “using best efforts to play as many games as possible, while taking into account player safety and health, rescheduling needs, competitive considerations, stadium availability, and the economic feasibility of various alternatives.”
Ownership now needs to either put forth a schedule that is as long as possible, or provide evidence why the above conditions can not be met and therefore no season can be played.
The reason the players state ‘tell us when and WHERE’ is because, included in the language for what is required to start the season (for example “no travel restrictions between the United States and Canada”) is language that states that Manfred will consider “appropriate substitute neutral sites where economically feasible.” Neutral sites come up in the agreement again when discussing the possibility of not being able to play in front of fans at the home stadiums of all 30 teams. The 3/26 agreement gives Manfred the power to have the season played at locations other than home cities. He could unilaterally state the entire season is to be played on high school fields in Texas.
The owners are now stuck either issuing a schedule and location plan, or canceling the season. They want that playoff money, and want as short a season as possible. So they need to manufacture some cause to delay another ten days or so. Which is what I expect they’ll do before ordering the players to return to work at the end of the month.
The players will grieve that the season could have been longer, but honestly I think any arbiter will say “Covid19 created such an unusual set of circumstances that it is amazing any season was played at all” and side with ownership. For the players to win, it won’t be about violating the verbiage of the agreement so much as proving the owners did not act in good faith. The owners play their cards right the next week and a half as they stall the start of the season, they’ll win that argument. The players win on full salaries, the owners will get their shortened season and revenue.
This was always going to be the result, its a darn shame it had to get so ugly. The owners took their best shot at breaking up the union. The union held firm. Its a pyrrhic victory though. Without a revised agreement in place, the owners can force all players to report. Any who don’t would surrender salary. The whole “high risk players getting paid to stay home” was part of these recent discussions that have gone no where. Sure there are still health and safety discussions to be had, but the league can just say “we’re quarantining and regularly testing the league, won’t be any more dangerous than going to the grocery store. Report or go on the restricted list”.
And thats my speil.
This greed narrative has to stop. Baseball is a $10B a year industry. You even began with “pay pro rata.” Many agree that that’s the most fair way, yet call the players greedy when the owners consistently want to pay less. The owners are taking risk of unknown profit, meanwhile the players are putting their health at risk. The level of distrust towards the owners is reaching a peak with the new CBA ahead. Seems that owners hide how profitable a team is. The bottom line is, if revenue is on the rise, the players should get a share. To me, I think the true greed remains with the owners. If the owners truly cared about their fans more than their profits and took more pride in putting out the most competitive product, baseball would thrive even more. The narrative that players are greedy —when they are simply asking for a coinciding share of increased revenue —should take a chill pill. That’s just my opinion.
I worked for a company that generated a billion+ dollars a year in revenue and were constantly in and out of bankruptcy.
How much revenue a company makes is not relevant.
If McDonalds really cared about their customers, they’d give away free hamburgers and french fries.
Well our Presidents biography seems to tell me that bankruptcy isn’t relevant either lol. Its a tool to get out of paying debt. Maybe your company was using Trumps playbook.
Uncontrollable debt drives bankruptcy. After figuring out who is owed money from the bankruptcy estate (Liabilities/debts) the next most relevant issue is the assets (revenue is in this category) of the estate. Further, baseball is not showing signs of needing to file for bankruptcy, so your comparison is off. Additionally, your assumptions are based on the company you worked for. They are founded on how you think it works, not based on any knowledge or truth. Lastly, your McDonalds reductio ad absurdam missed the mark as well because I never said make anything free. My point was the owners are sacrificing quality for even better margins and ask the players to share risk without sharing in profit. If I had said, “tickets should be free” then you’d be correct.
Who cares anymore? Just refund my season ticket money.
I love baseball as much as anyone but the best thing to do may be to skip this season for health reasons and start negotiating the next contract in good faith. I’m old and may not make it to next year but I always remind myself that I love baseball because its just a game. Other considerations may be more important.
Greed is going to destroy baseball, the seasons ahead will be fans the size of Oakland’s crowds! Texas will the the first to file for bankruptcy because of their 1.1 billion dollar ballpark, lol! This all really sucks!
Heck, by this time of the year, the Rangers are generally already out of realistic playoff contention, that I start thinking about the upcoming hunting season. I’d sooner just let them cancel this season instead of all this bickering back and forth. Nothing good comes from all the snide remarks coming from players and owners.
I wonder if there’s any consideration here that a 162 game season is way way way too long and a 50 game season will actually be more palatable for fans.
He didn’t go back on his word. He simply admitted he may have been wrong. Made a mistake. Was incorrect. Duh. Lol
Negotiations are messy and, for the benefit of everyone involved, should never be played out in public. What we are witnessing here commonly plays out behind closed doors and the public is spared the ugliness.
Nonetheless, in my humble opinion, we will have a negotiated settlement and will play baseball in 2020.
Angels & NL West.
For the first time I don’t think so.
The big problem is if a clubhouse gets this, that team is out. If that team is a playoff team, than that playoff round becomes a joke.
There is the very real possibility the playoffs will not be played or they will become a joke. If that possibility exists, why would the owners roll the dice?
I miss the sights, smells, tastes, and sounds of baseball, The banging of garbage cans, the smell of the $12.00 hot dog, the taste of the $14.00 beer, the $20.00 parking, the sight of multi millionaire players snubbing the fans that make their wealth possible. Ahh, Major League Baseball! The whole lot of them are running the risk that a whole lot of fans are going to realize they’re being abused. We put up with the inflated concessions, tickets, and parking because we love the game. But it’s becoming unlovable and many of us are going to say, “OK, enough abuse. I don’t love you anymore.” I’m looking forward to going down to the city park and watching softball games or going to see the high schoolers play. Have a $3.00 hot dog and a $2.00 Pepsi. Sit in the sunshine and enjoy the game I love.
This is on the owners now. Period.
Why is it on the owners.
Can you guarantee a playoff tournament will be untainted? Can you guarantee one or more teams won’t have covid run rampant in the clubhouse?
The owners will lose money hand over first during the regular season. Without guaranteed playoffs, why take that risk?
“Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong…”–“For What It’s Worth” by Buffalo Springfield, written by Stephen Stills
I hate to write this, and in fact, I wrote this under another post about one week or so ago, but there will be no 2020 season or 2021 season or 2022 season.
The virus is going nowhere and the owners and players clearly cannot even seem to agree on what day it is. This year is toast. If the virus doesn’t delay the 2021 season, the owners will lock out the players, and with the divide between the sides so deep, the 2022 season looks to be sacrificed as well.
When MLB returns, so many fans will be so upset, bitter and frustrated, advance ticket sales, merchandise sales, and even local TV contracts will all greatly suffer. This will likely force two tiers of teams as it is in soccer in the UK, Upper and Lower Divisions. The teams will be slotted not by record, or by perceived ability to compete, but by which markets still have strong fan support. I fear some of the current teams might not even make it this far. Off the top of my head:
The Upper Division: Astros, Blue Jays, Braves, Cardinals, Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, Nationals, Phillies, Rangers, Red Sox and Yankees
The Lower Division: Angels, Brewers, Indians, Mariners, Mets, Padres, Reds, Rockies, Royals, Tigers, Twins and White Sox
I don’t hate any of these teams, but the A’s, Diamondbacks, Marlins, Orioles, Pirates and Rays might be left out; the D-Backs and White Sox might switch predictaments but Reinsdorf’s love of baseball would have him fighting tooth and nail for his team’s survival and he would probably prevail.
Each of the two team markets are in danger except New York and Los Angeles. Despite the Wilpons, enough New Yorkers love the Mets. Even without Trout, the Angels can still draw at least two million fans any season, no matter what..
Look, I don’t want this to happen, but both sides seem to be headed for it. Stadium issues pale in comparison to not having enough paying customers. If MLB leaves for three seasons–and I really think this all is very possible–it’s going to be ugly upon return. When you consider just how many people will be angry and turned off to the sport forever, or for at least a significant time, this horrible scenario is what possibly awaits the players and owners.
These guys don’t feed and care for the goose which lays the golden eggs, they cook the bird instead!
Besides, the owners seem to really want to dump the leagues because most of them are shortsighted and seemingly brainless. Even if peace breaks out, if they put both of the two markets teams in the same division with the universal DH, one of the teams is going to take a hit. Hint: it won’t be the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Giants or Nationals. How much damage the “other team” suffers is the only question.
If you don’t live in one of the two-team markets, or if you are an AL fan, you might not understand. Just as there is a political divide in America, I truly believe there is a DH divide as well. You might laugh, but if you are a fan of “the other team,” you really shouldn’t.
As for the A’s, Diamondbacks, Marlins, Orioles, Pirates and Rays, they will either have to work like hell to prove that they still have sufficient market support, or else they can move or fold. Again, I truly have nothing against any of these franchises, so please don’t reply that I “hate” any of them.
Honestly, I would like to see a 32-team MLB, but the owners and players are going backwards. The moderates on both sides need to find common ground and forge an agreement before they wreck it all.
(Like) In your Mad Max scenario, billionaires might become mere 100-millionaires and $20 million contracts might only be $5 million. How will they all survive? Think about their children!!! They might even have to go to public school!
Alanofla, get off the ledge my friend.
The virus may impact next season, but really don’t expect an illegal lockout (or strike) before the CBA expires in December 2021.
We need to stop thinking that having a 2020 season would be a good thing to be wished/hoped for. Instead, we need to wish/hope that Manfred does the right thing and cancels the season. The only possible caveat would be if the season was 70+ games in length; but that option doesn’t seem even remotely possible at this point.
Baseball would be fine with 50 games and an expanded playoffs. In 1981, the Dodgers made the playoffs and won the World Series based on 57 game first half.
However, it’s the playoffs that’s a problem If a team or two has to be shut down because of the virus, the season becomes a farce.
It’s not the 50 games that will make the season a joke.
There are roughly 20 million American citizens without jobs because of covid yet these players act like they’re the only ones really suffering. These players are acting like entitled children. I have loved baseball for 43 years but now hope it never comes back. We’re fine without it.
I used to be harder on the players than the owners, but this just screams that the owners have not been negotiating in good faith. And…this is still a show…
Why? The agreement was signed with the caveat there would be fans in the stands and the virus would have been dealt with.
Neither is the case. You need to acknowledge that, then you can say it’s the owners fault.
Let’s keep things in perspective. TheThe March agreement apparently allowed for terms to be renegotiated if fans were not allowed in the stands. In other words, BOTH sides would negotiate new terms. Not that one side could dictate terms and tell the other “take it or leave it”. The Commissioner has the power to set the number of amount of games this season “as possible “. When the union rejected the last owners proposal that gave him the mechanism to invoke that clause. That he has failed to do so indicates that he is worried that the union will file a grievance claiming management did not negotiate in good faith. If the owners honestly felt they were negotiating in good faith, they would have nothing to worry about. They would be able to provide to an independent arbitrator documentation that they negotiated a fair proposal. The fact that they are hesitant to start up again absent an agreement indicates that may not be the case. In the end, an arbitrator would read the fine print of the March agreement and determine if the players have a case. The fact that Manfred won’t set a time and date for baseball to resume indicates the players may have a case
Manfred invoking the ability to set the schedule seems to require club support that he doesn’t have.
It’s a net calculus – is clearing the books a year for $0 and paying fixed costs without income cheaper than paying prorated salaries without gate revenues and depressed sponsor money, decreased regular season tv revenues, risk of paying grievance damages proposed at $1b or more, and risk of zero postseason revenue costing another billion?
Without playoffs and assuming only 50% regular season TV revenue in 81 games mlb takes in 37% of normal gross revenue minus sponsor losses and any other misc losses to merchandise and the like. On a 48 game season if you lose 75% regular season tv revenue you drop to 29% regular season revenue. If you guess 25% of sponsor revenue goes away you’re down to 26% regular revenue.
For teams to pay players 1.2B, then lose another 1.1B in grievance, without a postseason, on less than 2.5B in revenue…
Why bother? The 200M gap probably doesn’t cover costs of coaches, facilities, utilities, covid protocol, umpire salaries, travel, etc, etc, etc.
Thats all worst case scenario, but, it’s not outside realm of possibility.
Who cares anymore?
.
You must because you posted. If you really didn’t care why would you even bother coming here?
So best case scenario is about August 1? At least 8 owners don’t think playing this season is a wise decision. Just forget it and begin planning for 2021.
There is much that would need to be handled just in regard to player contracts alone.
So you’re telling me there’s a chance!!!!!
I have absolutely ZERO Sympathy for these Multi-millionaire demogog Players/MLBPA nor the Billionaire Franchise Owners! Better to break the Union completely and start over! Neither of these Airheaded groups know anything about real civilian American Life…they do not live in “our” world! Goodbye & good riddance as you should be ashamed of your egotists!!
I personally do not lend any credibility to any professional athlete nor any Celebrity persons on any matters of Civilianism! They are not a part of Civilian Life by choice & by Ego! They should be dismissed out of hand entirely! I will do that!
Honestly, I think the focus needs to shift to January 2, 2021.
Free agency, player contract options, grievance deadlines, expansion or contraction, autoumpires, rules changes (play and covid related), safety precautions, common sense scheduling changes, longer spring training season, enhanced/new in-game marketing or (wait for it…)
USA Winter Ball!
– I’d look forward to seeing televised winter ball games from warm climates minor league parks or even college complexes from January to February 15, featuring prospects from all levels, foreign players who are auditioning, college players, amateurs, rehabbing vets, open tryouts, etc.
The time is now to get ready for January. It really is only 6 months away and will be here before we know it!
Inspired by commenter jim stern above and some previous ramblings I’ve had, why not play from XX (whenever they are ready) so even September and through to January for example for a fuller season and play out in neutral sites for day-games in Arizona for example, or in covered temperature-controlled environments, they get a shorter off-season break, but thats the way it goes. If it makes anyone happy to do this, push back 2021 spring training a month and adjust accordingly.
Players would never agree to not having an off-season.
From a previous article, these conditions were baked into the agreement signed in March:
1. There are no governmental restrictions on spectators attending games.
2. There are no relevant travel restrictions in the United States and Canada.
3. That after consultation with recognized medical experts and the union that there are no unreasonable risks to players, staff and spectators to stage games in the 30 home parks.
#1 – Fail / #2 – Fail / #3 – Partial Fail
I don’t understand why people don’t believe the owners will lose money without fans in the stands. We’re not talking about a few million per team, the overall league will lose billions without fans in attendance. The players need to realize this is a once in a lifetime, unanticipated epidemic that will do significant financial harm to their industry. Could the owners afford to cover the losses? I’m sure most could, but they didn’t get into this business to lose tens of millions of dollars in cash flow (actual financial statement losses would be in the $100’s of millions per team). If owners are ‘forced’ to pay full pro-rated salaries this season then you can certainly bet they are going to make up for that over the next 2-3 seasons. CBT threshold will be lowered, free agent spending will shrivel up, draft will be truncated again and all of the players who are due for new contracts will feel the brunt of it. It seems to me that the most vociferous players are those who have already signed their long term, big money deals (Snell, Scherzer, etc), but they are doing a disservice to the players who haven’t reached that status yet. Sacrifices need to be made on both sides. Even if the players agreed to 70% pro-rated salaries, the owners still lose money. I don’t know why the players can’t give a little and propose something like 80%-85% pro-rated salaries. At least that would show some willingness to share in their team’s losses. The fact that over 8 owners want to just cancel the season tells us all we need to know: they’ll lose less money that way. So I’d say the owners are already giving a lot by agreeing to play (and pay) with big losses staring them in the face but the players refuse to budge an inch. Either pay now or pay later; sounds like they are going to find out the hard way how serious the financial impact truly is.
Tony Clark says the union is ready to adhere to Manfred’s edict to set the schedule. All Manfred has to do is set the number of games and when and where to report. Why hasn’t he? Probably because the owners haven’t negotiated in good faith and the union would win a grievance before an independent arbitrator. It goes without saying that teams are going to lose money without fans, but how bad will the losses be? Until they share their financial information to an independent source, do the players have to go by their word? Manfred should open up the camps,set the schedule and if the union sues, let an arbitrator decide
What part of the March agreement says the owners must open up their books?
If the owners are claiming dire financial distress, they need to show how much. Are we to take the owners word for it? Try that with the IRS or the Security’s and Exchange Commission. They don’t need to show the union, but an independent arbitrator. Don’t forget the owners have engaged in some shady labor practices in the past. Manipulating service time ( Kris Bryant), tanking ( Cubs, Astros , Orioles). During the 1980’s the owners were found guilty of collusion in holding down players salaries three years in a row. I don’t take “ sides” in these disputes. However unfair labor practices are unfair labor practices, whether the “labor “ is making 40 thousand or 40 million
He hasn’t because of the union’s loud mouth lawyer who said as soon as he sets it, they are filing a $1B grievance which would bring the season to a halt before it begins anyways. So what’s the point of even starting if that is the union’s plan?
Note: I don’t like Manfred but I can understand where he and the owners are coming from here.
Not true. The union can file a grievance and still play. It could take several years for an arbitrator to rule on the facts of the grievance. The grievance process was put in place as part of the CBA. It was agreed upon by both sides. If owners feel the players have not negotiated in good faith, they can file a grievance against the union. But if Manfred sets a time, the players will show up
Missing out on otherwise expected or projectable profits is not the same as losing money. Also, the players, by being forced to play fewer games and get a pro rated salary is already sharing in the loss. The owners know they are not getting money from ticket sales and are using that as leverage to continue to avoid sharing in the cable profits. No season=both sides lose, but the players and fans lose the most. A season= the owners lose leverage in the next cba to continue to NOT share tv revenue. The owners are sacrificing this season to save leverage in the long game. This is on the owners more than the players.
The players are asking for their full salaries for every game played. What have they sacrificed? It’s written in their contracts that if there is a national emergency, they don’t get paid for games missed due to that. So the players haven’t given the owners anything or really lost anything from a contractual standpoint due to the pandemic. Meanwhile, if a season does start, the owners would lose between 40-50% of the expected revenues from the remaining games, while the players would get 100% of their salaries. Sounds very one sided to me.
Using the concepts of a force majeure clause covers why the players were not entitled to pay during COVID. That has no bearing on what pay they are entitled to going forward. Why shouldn’t they be paid exactly what their contracts say for the games that are played? Can you explain why the owners lose money from playing? My position is that the players should be payed 100% minus whatever percentage the initial $170M payout was. Meaning if they play 81 games the players get 100% of exactly half that value minus $170M. Say that’s $2B owed then take out $170M = $1.83B. $1.83B/$2B= 91.5%.
I love how the players take the stance that they are completely blameless in this. But Max is right on one thing… the fans sure don’t deserve this.
Don’t play, ever again. I am tired of all the people in the world thinking every little thing has to be exactly like they want. I can do without it. I will watch little league.