In my personal opinion, the Cubs are in a similar situation the Kansas City Royals were a few years ago with all their core pieces on expiring contracts. The division is really anyone’s game, aside for the Pirates, but idk if the Cubs have the prospect pieces to be real buyers at the deadline, even if they are in it.
i dont know how you can categorically say Kirilloff is ready after one game last year. I get the idea that they wouldn’t have played him if he wasn’t expected to be able to produce off the bat, but them giving him one start doesnt mean he’s ready for the everyday job.
Yeah, the whole service time manipulation excuse isn’t really an excuse here. There’s a legitmate reason they should put him at AAA for a bit. This isn’t Vladimir Guerrero Jr. who already played a month’s worth of games at Triple-A in 2018 and absolutley dominated. Kirilloff has 4 plate appearances above Double-A. Like I said in a previous thread, he should start the year out at Triple-A for at least all of April. If he’s hitting well, then call him up. If he isn’t, then let him go for another few weeks. Jake Cave, Luis Arraez, Brent Rooker and Jorge Polanco can handle LF duties for a month or so. If they really wanted to, they could go out and sign a veteran stop gap like Josh Reddick for that month.
I would think St. Louis would maybe add a SP but the bullpen is set…cardinals will have one of the best bullpens in The league with what they have and the depth they have
Mark, just wanted to take a moment to appreciate your facilitation skills. You always bring a sense of humor and humility to the chat and you make a sincere effort to engage. I think all of the MLBTR staff do this but you stand out with these Q & A sessions. Thanks for making them so much fun!
Yeah, I remember them both. Aurelio Rodriquez was originally with the Senators, and he and Eddie Brinkman, who couldn’t hit a lick but could pick it as good as anyone ever, formed one of the best left side defenses in baseball. The ignorant Senators owner/GM Bob Short traded them to the Tigers for an over-the-hill Denny McClain.
How do you have Ortiz definitely getting in when he was outed for Roids in the Mitchell Report? Guys like Mattingly who have done it the right way, a great two-way player in his day and a solid manager are far more deserving
Right. Ortiz admitted taking steroids. Putting him in would be incredibly hypocritical, but this is the baseball hall of fame that we’re talking about so that’s not shocking. Their standards aren’t really so much about drugs or cheating as much as “we don’t really like this guy” vs “we love him”
Phantomofpd Ortiz never admitted to taking Steroids. He was named in the Mitchell report but that is all. He was never named in any of the Balco, “Bonds” or the Miami Clinic “Arod” or forced to testify and admit in Congress ie Mark McGwire and others. I’m not saying that Ortiz didn’t take steroids for sure but it is something we will never know.
I wonder if Victor Martinez might get a HOF shot? He was one of the best hitting catchers before he became a great DH. I think he falls short, but I think some in the Hall don’t belong either.
Top 2B’s of all time… Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, Gehringer…. then maybe…. Morgan… Sandberg… Roberto Alomar was one of my favorites… Carew… another favorite… uhhhhh Whitaker? Molitor? That’s 10… I’m sure I’m missing someone….
Just checked… Molitor played more 3B than 2B. I didn’t realize that. I always thought of the double play combo of Molitor and Yount. He only played 400 games at 2B. That’s like 3 seasons.
Altuve? Really? Nellie Fox, Jeff Kent, lou Whitaker, etc. definitely agree with your top four. Anyone remember that fellow with the Dodgers? Oh yeah, Jackie Robinson!
31.9 bWAR/26.8 fWAR, 117 wRC+, 118 OPS+. He did reach just over 2000 hits, had 246 home runs and .295/.360/.455 line. He definitley falls in that Hall Of Very Good catergory.
And I think you underestimate Joe Morgan – once he broke out in Cincy, he radically increased his teams winning performance. I thought he was the most impactful MLB player in the 1970’s. Did anything to get on base, then everything he could to score – intimidated opposing pitchers. Hit with power and in the clutch. An above average defensive 2B.
Morgan drove that team. The Big Red Machine jarred when they acquired Joe. Ask any Reds fan that watched. And when Pete got Joe to come to Philly at the end of their careers, the Phillies won a WS. Pete couldn’t get them over the top.
There are statistics and there is wining. There are winning players that impact games far more then statistics show. Always have been, Always will be. Guys like Joe Morgan, Derek Jeter, and others make a difference on the field.
Samuel- when Rose led the Phillies to the World Championship in 1980, Morgan was playing in Houston or San Francisco I think. Morgan played one year in Philly 1983 as an old man part timer. Rose drove the Big Red Machine and the Phillies.
Samuel- Pete played every day. Joe took days off. In 1980 they met in playoffs and Pete hit .400 and led his Phillies to victory over Joe and The Astros. Joe hit .122 that series. In 1983 Pete carried Joe into the World Series against Baltimore but lost. Pete hit .321 and Joe hit .260 Again Joe was a fine ball player no doubt but Pete Rose drove the Reds and the Phillies.
PeteWard8 – It’s difficult to compare players accurately who played several decades apart because the game – from the players (integration, physical conditioning), to the equipment, to the field conditions – has changed so much over the decades. However, that’s what we’re trying to do, so…
It’s possible Joe Morgan is “only” third-best, behind Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins.
Also, not that I’ll ignore Morgan’s 50 postseason games, but I’ll give much more weight to his 2649 regular season games.
And I’m not sure what Pete Rose has to do with ranking the greatest 2B of all time, but the Big Red Machine also had Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, and several other tremendous players.
Robinson played his rookie year as a first baseman then played 5 straight seasons at second base. he spent his last 5 years playing mostly third base and outfield, A little more than half his career he played second base but you can also say he played almost half his career at other positions besides second base.
PeteWard8 – Something Robinson and Rose had in common was their versatility. Their ability to handle multiple positions thorughout their careers allowed their teams to put the best starting eight possible on the field.
gbs42- Good stuff thanks for getting back to me.. Rose won Gold Gloves at 4 different positions.
And Rose had close to the same games played at second base as Robinson. Maybe Rose could be considered as one of the top second basemen of all time. I mean if Robinson is in the picture, maybe Rose should be too.
That’s what Rose has to do with ranking the greatest 2b of all time.
Finally Pete was the leader of that team hands down.
One of my favorite players of the 60’s. With Luis Aparicio at the top of the Sox lineup. The ideal #2 hitter. Used a large bat with an oversized handle. Swung easy to make contact – usually near the top of the league with the least amount of K’s. Just tried to meet the ball squarely and hit it where they ain’t.
These players today that use the skinny bats at managements urging, swing with all their might, and strike out an inordinate amount of time. Ridiculous. Ruin their careers. Some would do well to get a thick bat, and just concentrate on meeting he ball and putting it in play……….especially guys with speed that can help a team on the bases and on defense. Two OF’s the Royals had a few years ago – Billy Hamilton and Brett Phillip’s. If those guys had cut down on their swings, hit even .250 and gotten more walks, they would be prospering and so would the Royals.
So many little guys swing from the heels as the yuppie GM’s want “bat speed”. Slow it down. Watch the ball to the bat. Make solid contact as Nellie did.
No way Vmart deserves more than 1% of the vote on his ballot. He wasn’t a catcher long enough and getting in on your DH work is about as hard as it gets.
Besides the fact that I don’t think Harold Baines had a Hall of Fame career, his induction now leads to statements like “if Baines is in the HOF, then Player X should be in.” His election lowered the standard, but it shouldn’t. It was a mistake.
Could cubs be in on odorizzi?
Could cubs be buyers at trade deadline?
In my personal opinion, the Cubs are in a similar situation the Kansas City Royals were a few years ago with all their core pieces on expiring contracts. The division is really anyone’s game, aside for the Pirates, but idk if the Cubs have the prospect pieces to be real buyers at the deadline, even if they are in it.
i dont know how you can categorically say Kirilloff is ready after one game last year. I get the idea that they wouldn’t have played him if he wasn’t expected to be able to produce off the bat, but them giving him one start doesnt mean he’s ready for the everyday job.
Yeah, the whole service time manipulation excuse isn’t really an excuse here. There’s a legitmate reason they should put him at AAA for a bit. This isn’t Vladimir Guerrero Jr. who already played a month’s worth of games at Triple-A in 2018 and absolutley dominated. Kirilloff has 4 plate appearances above Double-A. Like I said in a previous thread, he should start the year out at Triple-A for at least all of April. If he’s hitting well, then call him up. If he isn’t, then let him go for another few weeks. Jake Cave, Luis Arraez, Brent Rooker and Jorge Polanco can handle LF duties for a month or so. If they really wanted to, they could go out and sign a veteran stop gap like Josh Reddick for that month.
I would think St. Louis would maybe add a SP but the bullpen is set…cardinals will have one of the best bullpens in The league with what they have and the depth they have
Still plenty of guys on the market. Depending on what Odorizzi wants maybe a deal with him could come together.
Mark, just wanted to take a moment to appreciate your facilitation skills. You always bring a sense of humor and humility to the chat and you make a sincere effort to engage. I think all of the MLBTR staff do this but you stand out with these Q & A sessions. Thanks for making them so much fun!
Yes!
Come on Mark no mention of Ryne Sandberg? I say he is just behind Morgan and so probably 5 or 6 all-time if not better. Geez!
At least 2 Aurelio’s that I know of (both former Tigers among other teams) – the original ARod, Aurelio Rodriguez & Aurelio Lopez
bseventeen:
Yeah, I remember them both. Aurelio Rodriquez was originally with the Senators, and he and Eddie Brinkman, who couldn’t hit a lick but could pick it as good as anyone ever, formed one of the best left side defenses in baseball. The ignorant Senators owner/GM Bob Short traded them to the Tigers for an over-the-hill Denny McClain.
Having made the critical comment about your omission of Ryno, I want to say I agree with MWeller – you do a fantastic job!
How do you have Ortiz definitely getting in when he was outed for Roids in the Mitchell Report? Guys like Mattingly who have done it the right way, a great two-way player in his day and a solid manager are far more deserving
Lol.
Right. Ortiz admitted taking steroids. Putting him in would be incredibly hypocritical, but this is the baseball hall of fame that we’re talking about so that’s not shocking. Their standards aren’t really so much about drugs or cheating as much as “we don’t really like this guy” vs “we love him”
Phantomofpd Ortiz never admitted to taking Steroids. He was named in the Mitchell report but that is all. He was never named in any of the Balco, “Bonds” or the Miami Clinic “Arod” or forced to testify and admit in Congress ie Mark McGwire and others. I’m not saying that Ortiz didn’t take steroids for sure but it is something we will never know.
Ortiz is a Hall of Famer you like it or not.
I wonder if Victor Martinez might get a HOF shot? He was one of the best hitting catchers before he became a great DH. I think he falls short, but I think some in the Hall don’t belong either.
Top 2B’s of all time… Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, Gehringer…. then maybe…. Morgan… Sandberg… Roberto Alomar was one of my favorites… Carew… another favorite… uhhhhh Whitaker? Molitor? That’s 10… I’m sure I’m missing someone….
Just checked… Molitor played more 3B than 2B. I didn’t realize that. I always thought of the double play combo of Molitor and Yount. He only played 400 games at 2B. That’s like 3 seasons.
Ok, that leaves me with just the 9… maybe Altuve?
Altuve? Really? Nellie Fox, Jeff Kent, lou Whitaker, etc. definitely agree with your top four. Anyone remember that fellow with the Dodgers? Oh yeah, Jackie Robinson!
Sorry, did not read the rest of the comments before posting. Good to see Nellie was mentioned. Outstanding player. Should have mentioned Pete Rose.
31.9 bWAR/26.8 fWAR, 117 wRC+, 118 OPS+. He did reach just over 2000 hits, had 246 home runs and .295/.360/.455 line. He definitley falls in that Hall Of Very Good catergory.
Good, but you missed Jackie Robinson.
And I think you underestimate Joe Morgan – once he broke out in Cincy, he radically increased his teams winning performance. I thought he was the most impactful MLB player in the 1970’s. Did anything to get on base, then everything he could to score – intimidated opposing pitchers. Hit with power and in the clutch. An above average defensive 2B.
Yeah Joe was the best. Just ask him. He would tell you he was.
Morgan is likely one of the two best 2B ever, maybe the best. And I don’t really care what he thought of himself, PeteWard8.
gbs42- who is your top 3? And Morgan hit .188 in 50 postseason games. Morgan was fine player no doubt but Pete Rose drove that team.
Morgan drove that team. The Big Red Machine jarred when they acquired Joe. Ask any Reds fan that watched. And when Pete got Joe to come to Philly at the end of their careers, the Phillies won a WS. Pete couldn’t get them over the top.
There are statistics and there is wining. There are winning players that impact games far more then statistics show. Always have been, Always will be. Guys like Joe Morgan, Derek Jeter, and others make a difference on the field.
Samuel- when Rose led the Phillies to the World Championship in 1980, Morgan was playing in Houston or San Francisco I think. Morgan played one year in Philly 1983 as an old man part timer. Rose drove the Big Red Machine and the Phillies.
Samuel- Pete played every day. Joe took days off. In 1980 they met in playoffs and Pete hit .400 and led his Phillies to victory over Joe and The Astros. Joe hit .122 that series. In 1983 Pete carried Joe into the World Series against Baltimore but lost. Pete hit .321 and Joe hit .260 Again Joe was a fine ball player no doubt but Pete Rose drove the Reds and the Phillies.
PeteWard8 – It’s difficult to compare players accurately who played several decades apart because the game – from the players (integration, physical conditioning), to the equipment, to the field conditions – has changed so much over the decades. However, that’s what we’re trying to do, so…
It’s possible Joe Morgan is “only” third-best, behind Rogers Hornsby and Eddie Collins.
Also, not that I’ll ignore Morgan’s 50 postseason games, but I’ll give much more weight to his 2649 regular season games.
And I’m not sure what Pete Rose has to do with ranking the greatest 2B of all time, but the Big Red Machine also had Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, and several other tremendous players.
Top ten, definitely. Not top two for Morgan.
I always thought of robinson as a 1b. He played more games at second, so he is in the top 10. Altuve to the bench.
If robinson had a longer career he could easily be top 5.
Robinson played his rookie year as a first baseman then played 5 straight seasons at second base. he spent his last 5 years playing mostly third base and outfield, A little more than half his career he played second base but you can also say he played almost half his career at other positions besides second base.
BobGibsonFan – “If robinson had a longer career he could easily be top 5.”
I think we can all agree Jackie Robinson – and many others from his time – would have been quite happy to have had longer MLB careers.
Also, I love the handle. Bob Gibson was tremendous!
PeteWard8 – Something Robinson and Rose had in common was their versatility. Their ability to handle multiple positions thorughout their careers allowed their teams to put the best starting eight possible on the field.
gbs42- Good stuff thanks for getting back to me.. Rose won Gold Gloves at 4 different positions.
And Rose had close to the same games played at second base as Robinson. Maybe Rose could be considered as one of the top second basemen of all time. I mean if Robinson is in the picture, maybe Rose should be too.
That’s what Rose has to do with ranking the greatest 2b of all time.
Finally Pete was the leader of that team hands down.
Nellie Fox? Over 2600 hits
One of my favorite players of the 60’s. With Luis Aparicio at the top of the Sox lineup. The ideal #2 hitter. Used a large bat with an oversized handle. Swung easy to make contact – usually near the top of the league with the least amount of K’s. Just tried to meet the ball squarely and hit it where they ain’t.
These players today that use the skinny bats at managements urging, swing with all their might, and strike out an inordinate amount of time. Ridiculous. Ruin their careers. Some would do well to get a thick bat, and just concentrate on meeting he ball and putting it in play……….especially guys with speed that can help a team on the bases and on defense. Two OF’s the Royals had a few years ago – Billy Hamilton and Brett Phillip’s. If those guys had cut down on their swings, hit even .250 and gotten more walks, they would be prospering and so would the Royals.
So many little guys swing from the heels as the yuppie GM’s want “bat speed”. Slow it down. Watch the ball to the bat. Make solid contact as Nellie did.
Fox had that golf ball size chaw too. Fox could run up foul ball after foul ball. Put on quite a display at times
No way Vmart deserves more than 1% of the vote on his ballot. He wasn’t a catcher long enough and getting in on your DH work is about as hard as it gets.
I agree, he doesnt belong. But if Baines and ortiz make it, I think Vmart deserves some votes. He was a catcher for 10 years.
Besides the fact that I don’t think Harold Baines had a Hall of Fame career, his induction now leads to statements like “if Baines is in the HOF, then Player X should be in.” His election lowered the standard, but it shouldn’t. It was a mistake.
How does everyone seem to over look Bobby Grich when it comes to second baseman. Should be in the HOF.
Grich was a great 2b…
Mark, loved the Cam Jensen reference. I’m a grandfather now but used to by those books for my daughters when they were young.
I had no idea who cam Jensen was. I had to google it. I raised 3 boys. No books allowed in my house.
2B Biggio and Cano (until PEDs came up) are on the cusp of top 10.
Hornsby, Morgan are 1 and 2 for mw.
It’s hard to compare guys from the early 1900’s to today’s players… could it be similar to an average major league player in a minor league camp?
Doubt todays player could handle baseball back then let alone life.