Going into the 2021 season, catcher Gabriel Moreno was ranked as the #8 prospect in the Blue Jays’ system by Baseball America. He finished 2019 playing A-ball, but due to the pandemic wiping out the entire minor leagues in 2020, he had yet to play at the higher levels of the minor leagues.
But in the first few months of the 2021 campaign, Moreno’s stock shot straight upwards. He started the season at Double-A and hit eight home runs in 32 games, slashing .373/.441/.651. His strikeout and walk rates were both better than average, coming in at 15.2% and 9.7%, respectively. Unfortunately, a broken thumb derailed him for a few months. He returned in September and played a couple of Complex League games, followed by three Triple-A games. In order to make up for lost time, he went to the Arizona Fall League and got into 22 games there, slashing .329/.410/.494, with an equal number of walks and strikeouts, 13 of each.
Baseball America now considers him the #1 prospect in the Blue Jays’ system, as well as #8 in all of baseball. Their scouting report highlights his eye for the strike zone, his developing power, his 41% caught stealing rate, with improved blocking and receiving. They predict Moreno, who turns 22 on Valentine’s Day, will be a future all-star who should make his MLB debut in 2022. That means the Blue Jays have a positional crunch on their hands, as Moreno is one of four catchers on the 40-man roster, with the other three all finishing the year with the big league club.
Danny Jansen, 26, made a couple of trips to the IL due to hamstring injuries but still got into 70 games in 2021. He hit 11 home runs and slashed .223/.299/.473 for a wRC+ of 105. When combined with positive marks for his defense, he was worth 1.4 wins above replacement in those 70 games, according to FanGraphs.
Alejandro Kirk, 23, also spent significant time on the IL and only got into 60 games on the year. He hit .242/.328/.436, with incredible strikeout and walk rates of 11.6% and 10.1%, respectively. His wRC+ of 106 is just a hair ahead of Jansen, but his work on the other side of the ball wasn’t graded as favorably, meaning his fWAR was only 0.7 on the year.
With Jansen and Kirk on the opening day roster in 2021, that meant there was no room for Reese McGuire. McGuire, 26, was designated for assignment, as he is out of options. He stayed with the Jays after clearing waivers and was selected back to the roster in May after Kirk went on the IL. Due to both Kirk and Jansen missing time, McGuire eventually got into 78 games, the most of the trio. He hit .253/.310./343 for a wRC+ of 78. Due to solid defensive marks, he was worth 1.3 fWAR on the year.
All of this means that the Blue Jays have decisions to make, as they are approaching a situation where they have four MLB-caliber backstops, with most clubs usually only rostering two. The team has had Moreno dabble at third base, as he played one game there at Double-A, which suggests they have at least considered the possibility of carrying three out of this group. That would still leave them with a surplus at some point, though, as none of this foursome is nearing free agency anytime soon. Danny Jansen is the closest to qualifying for the open market, but he still has three years of club control remaining.
It’s possible that the club may just want to hold onto all four, at least for the short-term. Last year, they went into spring with Jansen, Kirk and McGuire and just DFA’d McGuire once Opening Day rolled around and all three were healthy. Maybe they will just take the same approach, with Moreno getting more reps in Triple-A until either an injury creates an opening for him or he plays so well that they call him up and try to make the three-catcher scenario work.
However, there’s also the catching market to consider. This year’s crop of free agents was fairly limited and many of the stronger options have already been removed, as Yan Gomes, Manny Pina, Sandy Leon, Pedro Severino, Andrew Knapp and Roberto Perez all have new teams for 2022. For catching-needy teams, the best options available are now older veterans such as Robinson Chirinos and Kurt Suzuki.
Even the trade market has been picked over, as Jacob Stallings and Tucker Barnhart have already been shipped this offseason. Willson Contreras has been rumored to be available, especially with the Cubs signing Gomes. But Contreras is turning 30 in a few months and is entering his final year of club control, making him a different type of trade chip than the Jays’ backstops. The Athletics have reportedly considered shopping Sean Murphy. However, their highest priority in the post-lockout period will be moving their players that are closer to free agency than Murphy, who still has four years of team control remaining. Carson Kelly makes some sense as a trade candidate, but that doesn’t seem to be in the Diamondbacks’ plans. Due to that shortage of available options, it’s possible that some team might make the Blue Jays an offer strong enough that they consider subtracting from their depth.
Regardless of how it plays out, it seems to be an enviable position for the Blue Jays brass. FanGraphs’ depth charts currently rank the team second at the backstop position, trailing only the Dodgers, ahead of the J.T. Realmuto-led Phillies and the Yasmani Grandal-led White Sox. And that’s even without any contribution from Gabriel Moreno, who should be one of most interesting prospects to watch this year.
The Yankees like offensive Catchers. Perhaps Moreno can take over when Gary Sánchez leaves for DH pastures.
The job of a Catcher is to handle a pitching staff, call a game, and block balls in the dirt. Hitting is secondary. To do those things well usually takes years of experience at the ML level.
Nice to see they’re working Moreno out at 3B. If he hits that well it would be a better position for him. Won’t get worn down there and have his hitting suffer. Perhaps Shapiro learned from converting Victor Martinez to Catcher. Had he played his career at 3B he’s be in the HOF – a tremendous hitter.
Catching take a tremendous toll on a player throughout the season. Physically the man gets exhausted squatting up-and-down as well as being beat up by foul balls. Mentally he not only has to call every pitch and monitor the defense knowing each opposition batter and base runner, he has to handle the 30-plus Pitchers ML teams go through on their rosters each year.
It’s why there are so few quality Catchers in MLB, and why many teams prefer that 2 primary Catchers to share the position…..with a few more guys stashed away in AAA that can be called up immediately when one of the ML Catchers get injured.
Yeah, it hasn’t worked out for Sanchez & the Yanks. Looks more & more like it might not ever come together too, sadly enough. In ’16 & ’17 I thought Gary might be the Next Great Yankee Catcher.
Isn’t working out that way.
But: Yanks did pretty well with a bat first C named Jorge Posada. Might be before your time though. Jorge could hit! But with the glove & arm he was ok at best.
Baseball is hardly ever a “one size fits all” solution. There are all kinds of readily available templates for success in the history of the game. Stick around. You may pick something up.
Last: why are you posting about the Yanks on a Jay’s thread? & the first post? That you yourself are also responding to (lol?)? Little insulting towards @Dusty & the Blue Jay’s guys, uh?
Some fans always have the Yankees trapped in their heads. I enjoy it because I know the Yankees are causing them great pain as baseball fans!
More seriously, Ducky, the Yankees were one of the early adopters and leaders in pitch framing, which is why they valued the likes of Molina, Martin and McCann, and basically all of the catchers they brought to the majors, including Cervelli, Murphy, Romine and Higashioka, were trained as strong pitch framers. The one exception was Sanchez, and even he rated solidly upon his arrival, but his framing regressed when they altered other parts of his catching.
Despite the racist categorization by fans that Gary is lazy (that term is almost always used by the media and fans when referring to Latin American and Black players) he is known as a very hard worker. I do think the Yankees are to blame in how they handled him once he arrived in the majors, both offensively and defensively. I wouldn’t be surprised if his hitting picked up significantly again in 2022 under Lawson’s approach, but he ultimately is likely a change-of-scenery candidate. Who the Yankees have catching in 2023 does remain a legitimate question.
If the the “lazy” label is inaccurate, it’s certainly not “racist”. Bigoted perhaps, but even then, you would need a lot of additional information to verify that, At any rate, I wouldn’t want you on my jury if I was wrongly accused.
I think his belly has more to do with being called lazy than his race but I’m sure it doesn’t help.
Yeah, that’s all part of the fun of being a Yankee fan, ain’t it, @Rob. It’s not my flavor of fandumb. I do like the sox less than everyone else. Significantly less. Cowboys too. But some of these guys watch us damn near every game. To root against us or whatever. That strikes me as pretty extreme. To each their own, uh?
Gary was actually a pretty good framer.
However, there is a well known inverse relationship between blocking & framing. Only truly elite defensive catchers excell at both. Gary’s case was a pretty extreme one though. In his first full season, he allowed 19 PB’s. (In Johny Bench’s first year he allowed 22. Probably the only comparison between the two.)
But. You nailed it.
Too damn much tinkering since. Should have left him be. He originally shut the running game down. He framed pretty well. He probably would have improved his blocking some simply via experience. Gold Glover? Nah. Slightly above average D? Yeah for sure.
Ah.
The R word.
Gets tossed around a lot. Too much really. It’s a very powerful word. I think we are all becoming a little desensitized to it. & it is far too easy to levy these type of allegations.
Example.
There’s a poster on the board with a Vincent Price avatar. He has called me “the biggest racist on the board” multiple times. (Honestly, no idea why.) After college, I enlisted. I wound up physically fighting ethnic cleansing. Two tours. Now I may not rock a BLM shirt. But: I will stand on my record as showing I will fight racism. & I will fight it like a Marine: hard as hell.
When Gary was a teenager, he wasn’t taking his game prep seriously enough. It was a stretch of a few games. He was disciplined & it never happened again. But; a narrative was born. I blame the NYC media. .
I am not smart enough to know exactly what it is. There is a race component to it. But I – personally – balk at using the R word. At least as a general explanation.
Ya jays aren’t gonna trade him to the Yankees unless it’s an absolute kings ransom in return that I seriously doubt they could afford
Contending teams don’t trade for other team’s prospects, so the Yankee trade predictions are never coming to fruition.
The Blue Jays are either going to hold onto Moreno or they will trade him to a rebuilding team willing to give up decent player to solve a need. My guess is the former.
Yankees? Unlikely
Rght; the Yanks can just call up Moreno after they release Sanchez, but they might want to check with the Jays FO first.
It looks like “beat it” Reese McGuire has no trade value…..
C-Mart is still a great balk player and Moreno ain’t going anywhere! I
V-Mart I meant, V-Mart!
Well, Kirk is better.
Not defensively.
Kirk should DH only
He’s not as bad defensively as he looks but somehow slower than he looks.
that’s because he’s 5’2 (j/k) and weighs 265 lol
The answer to the question this article asks is, “Nobody” There is nobody currently blocking Moreno from being the starting catcher for the Toronto Blue Jays.
Right. He looks like a relative lock to both hit much better and play comparable if not superior defense. If he plays this year like he played last year he will probably be their primary catcher by the all star break.
So… move Kirk in a deal to help at 2b/3b and run with Jansen and the kid.
I think it’s smarter to hold onto Kirk until June or July when Moreno is ready to be called up, then trade him if he’s playing well or option him if he’s not.
If you trade Kirk now, you could find out in April that Jansen and McGuire are hitting like they did in 2020 and Moreno is unready or hurt… and then you’ve got zero catchers.
And maybe in June somebody’s front line catcher will be hurt and they’ll be ready to overpay for Kirk. At any rate, selling him now is selling low after his mediocre work last year.
But anyway, it’s clear that Jansen is the one who profiles best as a backup catcher to keep because of his defense and lack of trade value.
Over at BTV, Jansen has higher trade value than Kirk.
Right now Jansen could fetch more from a contender, Kirk could fetch more from a rebuilding team, but neither would fetch a lot. But I believe in Kirk’s bat so I think his trade value will go up once he proves it.
Agree 100% – A June/early July trade to fill a glaring hole. Will be interesting to see how Jansen starts , McGuire has hot streaks and as you said Kirk had a down year . ( The Injuries didn’t help ) Unless a team makes a very significant offer for either Jansen or Kirk .
I’ll say start the season with 3, and trade 1 away!
Moreno, Jansen and one of Kirk/McGuire has to go for pitching. e.g. Cleveland or Miami could use one of them!
Starts in AAA no matter how good his spring hitting goes. He’s Insurance in the minors. But I’m sure the Jays deal one of the other three as part of a big package for an impact player.
The Giants could stand to add to their catching group, nab one of these catchers, probably kirk and perhaps take on an unwanted contract from the Jays at the same time (perhaps grichuk).
Unless there’s another high prospect going to SF, then Kirk would not be worth taking on a bad contract for.
Pretty sure he’s worth it
.242, on the IL for a good part of the year, and not ranked very high defensively, and a average arm at best…….albeti a small sample size but still……”pretty sure he’s worth it”?
What do you know that isn’t in the article?
I’ve actually watched him play he’s a good ball player and already a fan favourite. Guys not a .242 hitter he’s much better than that. I’m not saying he’s fully worth a grade A prospect and salary of Grich but to say he’s not worth it based of this article alone is asinine
Kirk is easily worth more than enough to take grichuk don’t kid yourself
Service time… that will be the the question… if the Players get a change in service time where instead of time served, you get full season/ partial season credits… example… if you spend 1 day you get credit for 1`/2 a year.. if you spend 1/2 year + 1 day you get a full year… when this question is answered then you’ll have a more firm basis for speculation… until then bet that service time will be the thing that holds back young stars..
Sounds like someone the Blue Jays keep unless Moreno anchors a trade to the Reds for Luis Castillo.
I think Moreno lands someone bigger than Castillo. I think he is going to be top 10-15 overall on the upcoming baseball america and MLB.com lists. You only move him in a deal someone like Jose Ramirez even if you have to give up more to get him
Castillo provides stellar consistent SP work. that isnt an easy thing to find. 1-1 it’s the Reds that hang up there. Realistically the headliner is less exciting but there is more quantity going to CIN there.
1-1 isn’t far off. The Jays might need to include a mid level pitching prospect like a Kloffenstein or Van Eyk but Moreno has a ton of surplus value .
Castillo is a top 20 pitcher in baseball. It will (or should) take a Moreno, Jasson, Abrams type to get him. But maybe both sides would say no.
FA after the season though vs full control of what I imagine will be a top 10-15 prospect in baseball to start season. Think Castillo is worth a big return but I’d be unsure of trading a premium near ready prospect for a pitcher that will cost a lot of money to retain, jays already have 3 pitchers making TOR Like money In 2023.
Castillo has two years of control remaining. Moreno could certainly lead a trade for Castillo, but more than one prospect will need to be included.
Rob is correct, two years of control remaining. And is was on that basis that I thought Moreno for Castillo sounded about right.
The Blue Jays might also be interested in Nick Senzel as a potential 2B if the Reds don’t see him as their CF. The Reds will likely keep India at 2B, though he can also play 3B. I think Senzel is talented but he is injury prone and rumor has it he also has mild vertigo.
The Reds do have Stephenson, but I think they would still be very interested in Moreno.
@MannyBeingMVP
The Jays don’t need a #2 SP, they need a #5. Besides, the Reds have Stephenson for a catcher.
The Reds would surely ask for a top 10-15 prospect like Moreno, and maybe even land one, for Castillo. But Moreno is as untouchable as they come in the Jays system. They are sky high on the kid. He isn’t going anywhere.
Kirk, Groshans, + 2 lower level prospects might be more the Jays’ speed. Not sure if that gets it done for the Reds though.
@cito’s… I don’t know about untouchable. I mean, they did trade away SWR and Austin Martin for Berrios.
Yeah SWR and Martin weren’t untouchable. 😉
It’s not really a surprise to look at him at 3rd, since it’s an org hole and he was signed as a SS and converted to C.
Yep, I can’t think of a good reason he shouldn’t be the Jays 3B.
I can. In a year or 2 they’ll have Groshans at 3rd. Moreno can stay behind the plate. Bichette at short, Orelvis Martinez at 2nd and Vlad at 1st. Thats my future preference anyhow. Keep the potential future star catcher where he belongs. Its a more important position to fill then 3rd base imho
With the payroll they have projecting forward , Vlad looks to be a lock for an extension. Martinez could very well be Bichette’s replacement in 3 years.
If Moreno’s bat plays at the majors, which I think it will, having at C means he gets into 110-120 games. Having him at 3B means 150 games. That’s about 130 more PA’s for that bat to do damage. There is also no cost of acquisition in either player capital in trade (i.e Chapman) or through FA. His path to the Majors is faster as a 3B than C. It’s also not without prescidence that MiLB catchers are moved off that position to extend their careers because of the physical toll of catching. Harper, Donaldson, Delgado, and Biggio the elder were former C’s moved from behind the plate.
Its already been stated by many that Martinez likely moves off short to 2nd or 3rd and if Morenos bat is producing they will fit him as a DH or other positional fill in for days off etc. Id prefer him at catcher and i think Jays management feels the same
try and get something for Jansen and then get a stopgap to keep the backup C seat warm for Moreno.
Can you do a who/what is blocking Kingery and Haseley?
Kingery’s skill set blocks Kingery.
Lmao
Jansen /Mcguire are backups or guys you are always looking to replace with someone better.. Kirk has potential to be starter . the pitchers like the game he calls. Moreno they has chance to be special. Think they move one of first three . keep other two till moreno is ready..
At 5’8″, 265 lbs, Kirk doesn’t have the body type to withstand playing as a starting catcher.
At 5’8″, 265 lbs, Kirk doesn’t have the body type to withstand a basic office job.
Nice! lol
i legit laughed out loud
I don’t think everyone realizes that Moreno is pretty much untouchable. It doesn’t make sense to trade him either. One of Kirk/Jansen will be moved for sure but I think the jays will hold on to them until they receive the right offer. McGuire is easily replaceable at this point.
Keep them all until Opening Day. Cut McGuire, split Jansen and Kirk in Toronto, and let Moreno play AAA full-time for 3 months.
Can’t dump Kirk without seeing what his bat really is. Can’t dump Jansen until we find a for-sure starter because he’s the most well-rounded of the MLB guys. Can’t trade Moreno, period.
McGuire is the odd man out, sorry.
100% this
Why does having more than one trade chip represent a however?
Is it the same reason spaceships on starwars need runways?
Ideally it’s McGuire and a 3 months of a serviceable free agent starting the season for the Jays, with Mareno coming into the fold asap (earlier if service time is adjusted with cba)
Danny Jansen being part of a package to Oakland for a starter and Alejandro Kirk being part oft a package to Cleveland for Toronto’s next third baseman Mr. Ramirez
Cleveland needs corner OF’s and catching. Kirk and Hernandez and Gurriel wouldn’t come close to Ramirez’s value. Gurriel and Moreno might do it though. In other words, Ramirez ain’t happening for the Jays.
Cleveland puts a heavy premium on having defensive minded catchers so I doubt Kirk is someone they would target. That would be especially true if they decided to trade Ramirez since they should be able to get pretty much what they want. That would hypothetically mean someone more like Moreno included in a package, not Kirk.
BTW I notice many folks, myself included, often just identify the team as Cleveland. Guardians, that crypto fascist Orwellian moniker, will take some getting used to.
For the life of me, I can’t see the Jays and Guardians lining up on anything significant. Jay’s need a #5, either a FA on a one year or a trade on an expiring contract. Both are loaded up the wazoo with MI’s too. Maybe the Jay’s look to Zimmer as a 4th OF? But nothing they can’t get through FA.
Gabe Morenos awesome but too small to be a catcher, 5/10 180, I saw him play at 3rd, it would be better for him
I’m at a lose about these new negotiations between the players and owners. I’m not siding with either group but I think both sides have forgot its about the game.
First the owners have invested billions of dollars in buying and running the clubs. They didn’t earn that money invested through the club. that being said they are also their own worst enemy, for years they have paid outrageous salaries and long term contracts and that has never worked out well just look at the Dodgers as a prime example.
The player are just as bad being signed to 10 yr contracts at an age when they know full well most of them wont be near the player they were when they signed. and just how much is enough.. Betts signs for 10 yrs for 300 million, they are saying Othani will draw close to 500 million. Look to Detroit with Caberrea his deal ends in 2024 a great ball player in his time but now he’s not even close.
They need to look at the young men coming up given them more.
Limit the length of contracts
Set a pay scale they have divided players into A,B,C level for free agency compenation so do that across the board so A types have a limit they can reach per year of the contract. B the same thing and so on.
Shovel more money into the minors
Don’t add more teams to postseason, thats just greedy and it will be like the NHL where you get into the playoffs just for showing up.