Over a year ago, Mariners president of baseball operations Jerry Dipoto publicly declared that the club would not be supplanting J.P. Crawford at shortstop. That was despite a huge class of free agent shortstops that existed at that time, including Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Marcus Semien and Javier Baez.
Coming into this offseason, Dipoto stuck to his guns but said that his “great preference” would be to land a shortstop to play second base. This year features another strong class of free agent shortstops, with Correa on the market again, this time alongside Trea Turner, Xander Bogaerts and Dansby Swanson. However, they may be getting priced out of the bidding, as Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic writes that the expected prices of those shortstops are making it likelier that the M’s pursue a left-handed hitting second baseman to platoon with Dylan Moore.
The Mariners already had such a player in 2022, acquiring Adam Frazier from the Padres going into the year. He only had one year of club control remaining at the time and is now a free agent. The Mariners could always bring him back, but his bat took a step back this year. After hitting .305/.368/.411 in 2021 for a wRC+ of 113, he hit just .238/.301/.311 for a wRC+ of 81. Given that dip in production, the club might look for other options.
The other free agent options aren’t terribly exciting. Robinson Cano missed all of 2021 due to a PED suspension, had a worse season than Frazier and is now 40 years old. Switch-hitters Cesar Hernandez and Jonathan Villar also both had worse years than Frazier in 2022. Perhaps the best fit would be Jace Peterson, who has hit .238/.337/.373 over the past three seasons for a wRC+ of 98. His defensive grades are strong overall though that’s mostly due to excellent work at third base, with his numbers more middling elsewhere.
Given Dipoto’s penchant for the trade market has earned him the nickname “Trader Jerry,” perhaps that is the most likely route the club would take to address the keystone. Rosenthal speculates Kolten Wong as a fit, which is a match that has already been reported in recent weeks. However, Rosenthal also suggests they could target cheaper and more controllable players, since Wong will make $10MM in 2023 and then become a free agent.
Rosenthal suggests the Rays would make for a good trading partner, since they have Jonathan Aranda, Taylor Walls, Vidal Brujan and Brandon Lowe in their cluttered infield mix. All four of those players would come with risk in different ways. Lowe dealt with various injuries in 2022 and only got into 65 games on the season, with diminished production when he was on the field. After hitting .247/.340/.523 for a wRC+ of 137 last year, he slipped to .221/.308/.383 this year, still above average but a much lower 104 wRC+. He’ll make $5.25MM next year and then $8.75MM in 2024, with two club options after that at $10.5MM and $11.5MM. The Rays are usually not afraid to make deals of their experienced players but trading Lowe now would be selling low, no pun intended.
As for Walls, Aranda and Brujan, all three carry the risk of not being established major leaguers. Walls has the most experience of the bunch, with 196 MLB games under his belt. However, he’s seemed overmatched in that time so far, hitting just .182/.281/.288 with defensive metrics split on how to view his work in the field. Brujan has 62 MLB games on his track record but his batting line is even worse, coming in at .150/.207/.231. Aranda’s played just 32 games so far and hit .192/.276/.321. All three players have stronger numbers in the minors but haven’t been able to bring them up to the bigs just yet.
If the Mariners don’t find anything to their liking in those mentioned names, they could perhaps turn their attentions to other speculative trade targets such as Cavan Biggio, Nolan Gorman, Tony Kemp or Nick Madrigal.
We can give you Biggio for another high leverage RP and top 15 prospect from your ORG
Biggio has no stick and isn’t spectacular in the field not sure why you want to burden Seattle with your mistakes. Besides, the M’s already let you sign a broken Free Agent in Yusei Kikuchi last offseason thinking “Drinky Pete” could fix him isn’t that enough?
I do believe this is a joke post bud
What about Gleyber Torres? He isn’t left handed but he can fill a hole at 2B.
Starting to think the Mariners aren’t trading for Gleyber Torres. Silly I guess Emerson Hancock isn’t worth giving up? So enjoy looking up at the Astros all year. Smh
Enjoy looking up at the Blue Jays all year 🙂
@tstats- yeah really hope you’re kidding around. Toronto obviously is a joke. Maybe Mattingly can turn the team around in the 2nd half. We’ll see.
Hahahahaha!! BURN!! LMAO!
Good one tstats
Gleyber isn’t getting the M’s above the Astros anyway so why would they trade Hancock for someone like him? Rather look up at Houston for one more season than make a short-sighted move like that. I prefer a couple other options to Torres anyway, personally.
@myaccount2- I love Gleyber he’s one of my favorite players. I would hate to lose him. Logan Gilbert isn’t available. So if I’m the Yankees I got to get Emerson Hancock or George Kirby back for Torres. If not then no deal. I feel the Mariners are improving and are getting closer to beating Houston. I pray everyday. Lol.
Then no deal. It’s an easy pass.
Baseball Trade Values assign surplus values of $92.5 million for George Kirby, $6.6 million for Emerson Hancock and $4.6 million for Gleyber Torres.
M’s are good, but it gonna be more that 1 more year they are looking up at Houston. That is a well oiled machine that know how to win.
No deal, those two are foundational.
George Kirby for Gleybar that’s a joke right.
If I’m the Mariners I’m not sold on Hancock but I would certainty want a more then Gleyber for him.
I don’t think the Yankees have enough to trade to for Kirby. Kirby pitched like what he is a TOR arm in the making with 5 years control left. If the Yankees wanted Kirby and the Mariners wanted a shortstop maybe Volpe and Dominguez maybe it would take a ton to pry Kirby away.
To be precise: Seattle righthander George Kirby, who was called up in May, has six years of team control,.
Yup my bad he’s a very valuable player it’s going to take a hell of a lot more then Gleyber to get him that’s my point.
@Chester Copperpot- Ok, and like I said enjoy looking up at the Astros all year then. Gleyber definitely would help the M’s for sure. He did hit over 25 homeruns last season you know? Smh. What did Hancock do for you last season? Exactly nothing.
Bruin1012- Ok, so how does Schmidt, Gleyber, Florial, and Hicksy sound for Hancock or Kirby?
All Rise I’m not sure how the Mariners look at Hancock but they are two totally different trades.
I doubt the Mariners want any part of Florial and they definitely aren’t taking Hicks but the Yankees would have a chance wrestling Hancock away depending on if the needs met up.
Kirby is a whole different animal altogether as someone pointed out he has 6 year of control left his control is pinpoint he has tremendous stuff and makeup he’s a future potential ace. It would take Volpe plus Dominguez to even start a conversation that’s if the Mariners are as high in Volpe as the Yankees are. In short I see no way the Yankees can trade for Kirby since they have already said they aren’t trading Volpe and it would take Volpe plus Dominguez to even have a shot at Kirby if the M’s were to move their future ace which they won’t.
George Kirby is the BEST pitcher on our staff. Yes, better than Luis Castillo. Better than Gilbert. And better than Brash. He isn’t going anywhere. He was a rookie last season. This year will be his breakout. You’re looney if you think he is being traded for a lowly 2B. More like Volpe and change for Kirby straight across.
Ace-Kirby
P-Castillo
P-Gilbert
P-Ray
P-Flexen/Gonzales/Brash/Hancock/Dollard/Miller
I like Torres and would love to have him. Hancock’s ceiling (6th overall pick) and club control are too valuable to a team like the Mariners, who don’t spend with the likes of the Yankees, to make it happen though.
Now if you want Marco Gonzalez or Chris Flexen, we can start talking.
I agree Ben10 they aren’t trading Kirby all I was doing was pointing out the value that Kirby has and it’s huge. I was just pointing out a trade for Hancock is totally different then a trade for Kirby. Since Allrise is a Yankee fan I was just pointing out the kind of value it would take if the Mariners were to move Kirby which they are not. Yankee fans will see it would take Volpe and Dominguez but in all reality it would take those two plus quite a bit more.
In short I was just pointing out how untouchable Kirby really is and how different Hancock and Kirby are value wise. I’m not sure many east coast fans really understand how good this guy is.
Perfectly said. You hit the nail on the head.
Could not agree more. Kirby next to Julio and Raleigh are the three most untouchable players on this team.
With all that said I would definitely entertain Torres for Hancock. I heard Matt Brash has a cannon of an arm. Would the Mariners ever trade him?
I’d be more inclined to trade Brash for Torres, than Hancock for Torres personally.
And if Cashman’s reply is Hancock or no deal, I’m sure Dipoto is saying “no deal.” Gleyber isn’t a must have, IMO. And it sounds like we would like to add a LHH.
The point is we’re looking up at the Astros next season whether Gleyber is on the roster or not.
It would take quite a bit to pry Brash out of Seattle. I can see them doing so, but it would have to be for a marquee player better than Torres. I don’t think Seattle is looking to offload Hancock either. Seattle has had far too much success in developing young pitching to trade away a talent such as Emerson before ever reaching his ceiling.
To be honest, I don’t think the Yankees would very much care for the return of what Seattle is willing to offer, which is why a deal hasn’t been made yet.
The Mariners have notified teams of what their trade pieces are(Flexen, Gonzales, Kelenic, Winker). Dipoto values team control and at good value. Right now, he doesn’t have to do anything, and we’re still making the playoffs in 2023. So I think their waiting for the market to come to them. I’m hearing that they are not “close” on anything at the moment.
Not a chance. Brash is way more valuable than Torres.
I’m sure Seattle is doing their due diligence on Torres. They got Adam Frazier for peanuts from SD in a cost saving move to help the payroll. Might be looking at going back to that well this offseason, with the Yankees trying to get Judge under contract. I’m not sure how New York feels about exceeding the the cap threshold and the tax penalty for it, but the Mariners are definitely aware of it.
You’re probably right about those three being untouchable, but I’m not so sure Kirby should be.
To be clear, I think highly of him, and the notion of him being swapped for Torres is about as lopsided of a trade that could be imagined.
But With Seattle’s current abundance of starting pitchers and guys like Hancock, Dollard and Brash really close, and considering Seattle’s ability to develop pitching…
I think they should at least listen to an offer. It would have to be a high-ceiling player with similar control, like Wander Franco, or Corbin Carroll (both of whom are likely off-limits), but it shouldn’t be a foregone conclusion.
Brash has to be much more valuable, and if you didn’t see the xlips, he has a new pitch: a cutter, and it’s looking good.
I could see him back in the rotation again real quick.
Why? Brash is a hard-throwing reliever now. Zero mlb success as a starter and posted a 0.1 WAR in his rookie year. Torres posted a 4.1 WAR. I’m not looking to give Brash away, but he can most certainly be had.
Personally, after watching Brash’s 50 IP this year, I would trade him straight up for Torres in a heartbeat.
Dipoto noted at the end of season press conference that they would stretch him out for starter duties and reassess according to team needs.
Great as a reliever. Could be better as a starter. I kniw at least one scout suggested he could be better than Kirby. That got my attention.
Yes I heard that as well. I happened to believe Mike Salk, who said immediately after Dipoto got off the air, that he’s most likely saying that to sell him as a starter to other teams this offseason.
This is Dipoto from that same interview: “To this point, Matt is going to pitch his 25-year-old season. I think he was awesome last year once we shifted him to the bullpen. Based on our present personnel, I think it’s highly likely that he starts the season again in the bullpen,” Dipoto said. ” … There’s really no harm in stretching out, being prepared to stretch out in spring training. It’s a lot easier to back up than it is to stretch out in terms of innings development. And at least at the start of the spring, we’ll see where that takes us. I can’t say it’s a natural competition. Right now, we have six starters who who are going to vie for time and we have a handful of other young pitchers who are going to have a chance to make an impression.”
None of that sounds like they’re actually considering him to start.
He’s going to be reserve starter. All it takes is one injury.
But the bigger point is that he’s probably more valuable than he’s getting credit for, where as a trade chip, or as a versatile reserve arm.
I really felt Winker & Kelenic were being talked up in the press conference.
Hit the nail on the head. And I love that he’s developing a cutter. If Brash can figure out how to use that sinker, then his other breaking will be downright lethal.
Cutters and changeups were the arguably the two most effective pitches against the Astros. That may or may not have anything to do with this, but it still makes me feel good.
I don’t think we should bank on Dollard, Miller, Hancock, etc. None of them are in the same stratosphere potential-wise as Kirby and when you have a future Cy Young winner, you should take all those years of control.
Hancock had 3 plus pitches (FB, SL, CH) with a quickly-improving curve at the time he was drafted. He got slowed by injuries, but he still very much has front-line potential.
Kirby’s FB and command are what makes him great. He won’t be an ace unless he’s able to do better with at least one breaking pitch. Solid 2 or 3 right now.
But again, look at how successful they’ve been with developing starting pitchers. Nobody really knew any of these guys at the time they were drafted (Hancock, ironically, being the exception).
Who do they have that looks promising and is almost MLB-ready on the fielding/catching side? They hit on Julio and Cal, but there’s a whole lot of questions after those two, and two glaring holes that have yet to be filled.
I don’t actually think they’ll trade Kirby, I just think there is a deal out there that might makes sense, and we probably will see at least one unexpected move this offseason.
You are correct, Hancock is to big an ask for Gleyber.
Not trading for Gleyber Torres will have zero bearing on whether the Mariners are looking up or down at anyone. Plus the article states they are looking for a LH hitting 2B, which has been reported since the Wong rumors started at the beginning of the offseason
Torres is right handed when we really need a couple left handed bats. Why would we give Hancock for him I bet Jerry would hang up the phone before he fell out of his chair laughing. Kirby the same. Hancock he would ask what do you have for left handed OFers?
I honestly think we should sign Frazier to a contract with a lot of incentives. Then have a couple option years. No need to trade for something we can get and know. I know it isn’t someone shiny and new but he looked better at the end of the year not counting the playoffs. Sometimes a known commodity is better than something new. That is unless we can get someone LH and considerably better.
They don’t have to have two LHHs. If they keep Winker, they have 3 as-is with Cal being a switch-hitter.
But my god, they can’t bring Frazier back.
I would rather have Frazier back playing decent D then Winker doing whatever you call that in LF. Maybe straight across Winker for Volpe. Just kidding I would take a 5 gallon jug of chewed gum for Winker. So yes we need 2 more LH hitters. IMHO
They just need stars. Idealy, at least one would be a LHH, but the skills & tools are more important, in my opinion.
My belief heading into the offseason was that the team is so close, they probably won’t want to shake up the roster much. I wasn’t anticipating many trades.
Now….I’m not so sure. If they fail to get an elite SS or outfielder via free agency, maybe they’ll look to tighten up the rotation & bullpen. For what it’s worth, moving Winker, Flexen, and Gonzales would save them 23m in 2023 alone.
Typical Yankees fan comment. Yes let’s give up our top pitching prospect for a player who has fallen out of the limelight of his current team…. Who are you rooting for when judge leaves?
@taesamlee- Ok and I like I just stated above what did Kirby or Hancock do for the Mariners last season? Exactly nothing. Gleyber hit 26 homeruns last season. Gotcha!
In a partial season George Kirby posted 3.0 fWAR and an ERA of 3.39 in 25 starts while Gleyber Torres posted 2.7 fWAR.
Kirby has six years of team control and Torres only two years of team control. That helps explain why Baseball Trade Values gives Kirby 20 times the trade value ($92.5 million) of Torres ($4.6 million).
What did Kirby do? Lets see….you mean other than have a dominant debut of 6 shutout no walk innings vs TBR in early May? Or set the all-time MLB record for the most consecutive K’s thrown to begin a game? Or Win AL Rookie of the Month w 4-0 record a 2.15 ERA (3 BBs out of 120 batters faced) and 34 K/0’s in 5 starts in Aug? Or Finish the year with a 3.39 ERA? Other than Clinching the WC series by getting the Save in Toronto? Or pitch 7 shutout innings in a must win ALDS game 3 vs the HOU Astros? …yea thats NOT EXACTLY NOTHING!
The M’s Rookie Catcher hit 27 HRs (with a broken thumb!) in 119 games last season!
Yikes, AllRise made the mistake of pretending that George Kirby did nothing for the Mariners last year, and doesn’t even have the courage to own up to his mistake. AllRise has a valid point about Emerson Hancock, he hasn’t actually done anything at the Major league level yet, but George Kirby absolutely did.
Doubt it would take a high leverage RP to land Biggio. And in fairness, Swanson wasn’t very good in high leverage situations last season. Not saying he can’t be that for you, but fangraphs has him giving up a .281 BAA in high leverage situations last season and it kinda felt like more. He’s best suited to the 6th and 7th innings.
Could they bring back Frazier at a lesser salary? I think Frazier might bounce back a little. Maybe one year at $2 million?
I’d take Frazier for my 2b-challenged wsox. I’take anybody at this point.
Absolutely not
We get it, they want Kolten Wong.
It wouldn’t be Wong to want Kolten
Why the wong face?
Wong day?
Wong #
Torres can bat LH…….. I heard.
Haha, let’s coach him up!
Is it just me, or is counting on a rebound season from Adam Frazier more appealing than any of the options listed, beside the big 4 SS? Maybe I am crazy but I don’t particularly like the thought of what it would take to make some of those trades happen. I also am not particularly excited about any of the free agent options, obviously ignoring the big 4 SS.
I’m on the same page with you. Frazier was clutch in the WC vs Toronto and he has a track record of above average offense.
Not appealing. Not enough upgrade possibilities. Frazier doesn’t help M’s catch Astro- PERIOD.
Fair, but outside of the big 4 SS, what other options are more appealing? Brandon Lowe with his injuries and bad year? Plus whatever it will take to make a trade with the Rays? Robinson Cano? Cesar Hernandez?
I am not arguing that Adam Frazier is the most appealing option, just that outside of the big 4 SS, there are not a lot of super appealing options. Everyone seems to be counting on a bounceback year from Jesse Winker, isn’t it also possible Adam Frazier has a bounceback year?
I’d rather us go with Wong and the upside of a fully healthy season from him. I think he can get back to being a very strong defender and slightly above average hitter.
Alot of trade options.
Edman, Torres, Polonco, Ozzie
Agreed. I think only one of those guys moves but I also believe each team would listen intently on all 4 of those players.
Endersgame;
About the “Big 4 SS’s”……
How did the publicized, ridiculously paid FA SS’s from last year impact their teams winning in 2022? Did one of them lead their team to the playoffs?
Since none of those have been listed as possibilities so far, what if the other team is asking for George Kirby + Cal Raleigh + Jarred Kelenic +??? The teams need to be willing to trade the guys you mentioned, what if none of them are?
Those 3 are non-starters.
Samuel;
That is a valid point. After how this year went, though, aren’t the Mariners close enough to take the chance and see if Trea Turner (as an example) is enough with the other pieces to push them past the Astros? To get them another round into the playoffs?
Completely hypothetical, obviously, but didn’t this last year go well enough to see if trading for Teoscar Hernandez, adding Trea Turner, and adding Andrew Benintendi is enough to push the Mariners past the Astros?
Only Winker from that group is movable.?
Endersgame;
That’s fine.
Just realize that you’re talking about giving a 30 year-old a 7-10 year contract for big bucks because you want to win in 2023.
As I recall, Swanson helped the Braves get to the nlds. And Turner did the same with the Dodgers.
Samuel;
Absolutely agree with the point. Trea Turner is 29 right now, but as he gets older, he will lose some of the speed, which is a big part of the appeal for him. I just… I don’t know that I see any better options for upgrading the middle of the infield than paying for one of the big 4 SS. Some of the trades being floated surely look good, but what will it take to trade for them? The Mariners already paid a LOT for Luis Castillo, how much more can they afford to part with in other trades?
Ah yes, it’s all one highly paid player’s fault the team didn’t win enough.
Jarred Kelenic’s Beer Can;
Ah yes, you think one highly paid player is going to lead your team to the World Series.
If you squint just right Rougned Odor looks okay
Andres Gimenez is the center piece of a major deal being worked on by the Guardians.
Power hitting C Cal Raleigh is the target for the Guardians.
Other names being discuss include Zach Plesac and or Aaron Civale being flipped . On the M’s side, George Kirby and Jesse Winker coming to the Guards.
I’ll take things that aren’t happening for $1000
@dythomp1995 – Haha. That’s funny. More like $1,000,000 daily double!
Raleigh mentioned in trade talks. That’s funny.
Can you say Jason Varitek
Cal Raleigh and George Kirby as about as untouchable as they come. Baseball Trade Values assigns Raleigh and Kirby a combined surplus trade value of $136 million.
Baseball trade values, the whole surplus value construct is junk science and not to be taken seriously.
Alternative trade value calculations are welcome.
You’re right it is junk science. Kirby and Raleigh have way more than $136M surplus value.
Except Shane Bieber and Gimenez are now being discussed in the deal for Raleigh , Winker and Kirby
No they aren’t. You literally went from Plesac and Civale to Bieber to try to sell this nonsensical “rumor” after everyone has pointed out that Raleigh and Kirby are not going anywhere
You had an interesting fan fiction trade going there until you included Jesse Winker and his $8.25 million dollar salary going back to Cleveland in the deal…
Well considering they paid their catchers like $6 Million last year, Winker is not much of a stretch
$4 million went to Austin Hedges to start at the position. Winker as LH hitting Outfielder (which Cleveland has 5 on the 40 man roster) who doesn’t supplant either Kwan or Gonzalez in the starting lineup, would be a very expensive 4th OF on a very cost conscious team. So Winker is more of a stretch than you realize
Don’t think the M’s would give up Cal but #1 prospect Harry Ford is catcher. He’s at least 2/3 years away from the bigs though. That would be tough for the Seattle to trade, so far he’s looked like the real deal. Gimenez would be a perfect fit with the M’s.
Really curious to see if Ford stays at C or if they move him to one of the other positions he’s familiar with to take advantage of his athleticism. I wouldn’t mind seeing him spell Cal for 20-30 games a season in the future while mostly starring at 2B. I think he’s going to be the real deal.
Cal Raleigh is one of the main core pieces for Seattle going forward. They don’t have a suitable full time replacement. Tom Murphy will see time back there and get some at bats, but he’s not an everyday catcher as he’s been injured every year since we acquired him.
I think that Cavan Biggio is the best possibility out there would love the Brewers to grab him and make them their third baseman.
You do not want Biggio as your 3B. He was quite bad there with Toronto.
Jim jays to be fair to Cavin he did have a bad finger injury and didn’t have a whole lot of prep time before being placed at 3rd. Give him a whole spring training to get into the grove of it and I bet he’s a lot better at the position
He doesn’t really have the arm or quickness for the position, though. I have no doubt he could be better than he was, but it would shock me if he could ever actually be good there.
Nick Madrigal bats righthanded. So he wouldn’t really fit with the rest of this post.
He should try from the left. Couldn’t have LESS pop from that side…
I was just about to post the same thing. That’s kind of a bad error…
The winter meetings next week are going to be exciting for us fans.
I truly expect something big by the Mariners.
Andres Gimenez for Cal Raleigh, Jesse Winker and George Kirby is on the table
The Mariners need to keep Cal “Clutch” Raleigh.
You’re taking the bait Fred hahaha….its such a slow MLBTR day that these readers comments on completely fictitious trades are actually generating responses!
You and I both know that 1) SEA is NOT trading Cal Raleigh or George Kirby and 2) CLE is not trading Andres Gimenez.
You’re right, ayrbhoy.
Well, don’t be surprised if something big happens especially in Cleveland
As much as I would like Andres Gimenez, I really hope that the Mariners would not include George Kirby in that trade. I personally hope to see George Kirby as a main part of the starting rotation for a while still.
Bieber would now be going to Seattle
You “really hope that the Mariners would not include George Kirby in that trade.” – em, what trade!?
There is no trade rumor involving Kirby.
There are 3 people on that Ms roster that are ‘untouchable’ the obvious- 1) ALROY Julio, 2) our SP1 Ace Luis Castillo and 3) the young lad from Rye NY….George Kirby. He is not leaving SEA anytime soon.
He’s A Rookie SP with 6 years team control, he has elite command of the K-Zone with 5 pitches. His Fb is 98 mph, his ‘makeup’ is off the charts and he is absolutely fearless. He is Ace material. Hyperbole? Consider this…..
Who did the Mariners turn to to get the Save which clinched game 2 of the WC Playoff Series? The 24 y old Rookie.
Then In a must win game 3 of the ALDS he took the ball and shut down the WS winning HOU Astros over 7 inn. How were the 24 yr olds nerves in the biggest game of his life!? Well….he gave up a total of 6 singles but more importantly- he issued Zero BBs.
Trust me George Kirby is going nowhere.
I am not saying that he is going anywhere. I was just responding to the hypothetical trade, there is no way I would want George Kirby even mentioned in that trade.
You are absolutely right, George Kirby should not be going anywhere anytime soon.
Trading Cal Raleigh would be like trading Jason Varitek all over again
There is no way this is happening. Whatever your smoking its good stuff. Giminez for Raleigh straight across is probably about right. And I still doubt Seattle would do that. Kirby is a better player than Gimenez, Why in the world would Seattle hand over both?
That would be far too much to give up for Gimenez even if we weren’t just talking your MLB the Show hypotheticals
Throw in Jose Rarmiez and Bieber and you got a deal! That’s about how realistic that is…
Trade for Arraez
Hey, I know a left handed second baseman! His name is jp Crawford. He is not good enough to have a guaranteed spot at a premium position. If he is as great of a clubhouse guy as they say he is, I’m sure he’d have no problem moving to the other side of the bag if it would help the team win. Then we can sign Correa.
Giants will give Mariners Tommy LaStella including a major buy-down of his contract.
You beat me to it Pete. I was going to suggest LaStella for a bag of batting practice balls.
You both beat me to it.
tad2b13 — Don’t push Seattle asking for too much. Maybe a broken bat to properly commemorate the transaction.
why do teams limit themselves by focusing on a lefty only, or righty only hitters?
Because the guys who are already penciled in are predominately lefty or righty. Teams need to balance out the handedness as they fill the holes.
there’s no meed to balance a lineup if everyone can hit
Most hitters don’t hit same side pitchers as well as opposite side. Guys that hit both left and right-handed pitchers aren’t common. Kolten Wong has an OPS 101 points higher against RHPs over his career. Last season it was 404 points, though it is a small sample (96 PAs), against the righties. But his platoon splits explain the reason for that small sample.
“there’s no meed (sic) to balance a lineup if everyone can hit)
Yeah, how hard can it be to sign a lineup of all-stars?
Its not which side they hit from. Its which side pitcher they are unable to hit. If the player hits both lefties and righties well, they play full time. But if they are weak against one, they become a platoon player. Sometimes its easier, and more affordable, to find the other half of a platoon than a full time player. “Hittin'” Harold Castro would be a good fit. Primary is 2B, but he can play everywhere. He won’t hit many HRs, but is a good PH.
Harold Castro’s OPS against LHPs is .561. That’s 148 points lower than what he hits against RHPs.
Edman is a switch hitter. 90+runs last year. Gold glove. 6.4 war
Bump Julio to 2nd spot
Ya, Correa, turner sound good. Cano 2.o anyone? Before you say “their not like Cano”. people were thinking the same thing about Cano.until they are Cano 2.0. Decliningand albatross contract at the back end. Dollars to donuts they trade for a 2B.
Cards won’t move Edman. He is one of the most underrated players in the sport. Great defense, can play SS and 2B, and is an excellent baerrunner and contact hitter. When you put that all together, he is a very valuable player.
It would have to take something super significant to get tommy edman.
I can’t tell if you’re being serious, or if you’re delusional…Are you sending Julio Rodriguez back in the return? That’s a realistic as you getting Tommy Edman from St. Louis for whatever lackluster package of prospects you think it’d take. I’m 90% certain you couldn’t get Edman for your top 5 prospects. If you had a 20 something year old Yadier Molina and a 20 something year old Adam Wainwright we could talk. But you don’t. And Hancock is broken. Flaherty or Reyes 2.0. Only one of your top 5 crack the top 100. And that’s at 68 last I checked. I’d look somewhere else for your 2nd baseman.
Hate to see him go, but you may have Tommy La Stella.
Add how much we grieve for this separation, but we just want to do something nice for our Seattle buddies.
Still think Ketel Marte would be nice. The DBacks are looking at Xander now though.
They have one. His name is JP Crawford and he in no way deserves to have his name carved in stone at the shortstop position.
Should read, “Mariners intent on remaining average.”
dshires4;
You appear to have caught Red Sox-Yankee Fan disease.
After the Mainers commit to $250-300m for a SS, do you throw another $300-350 at another player next off-season when the Mariners come up short again in 2023?…and how about the season after if that doesn’t work out?
Yup. You’re right. Back-to-Back 90 win seasons is average. Borderline mediocre. They don’t know what the hell they’re doing!
Next stop for the Rougned Odor show?
Will not miss Rougned here in Baltimore, but boy was he entertaining as hell to watch.
July 5th, my son and I at OPACY. Bottom of 9th, Os down 9-8 against the Rangers. RO goes deep. The “STROLL” he took around the bases including his stare down/chirping in to the Ranger’s 3rd base dugout was hysterically epic.
Rougned can hit. Don’t believe me. Ask Jose Bautista.
Ask the Mets about McNeill – Give them back what they sent for Diaz.
I’m sure the M’s would love to acquire McNeil for Kelenic
It’s too bad they’re getting priced out of being able to grab one of the big 3 shortstops. Getting one of them could elevate them from being a very good team to an elite one. I thought Bogaerts would be a perfect fit for them.
We’re not though. The payroll is totally fine. Trading Marco and/or Flexen opens up even more of that. This is the absolute correct time to spend if we were going to do so. Dipoto’s aversion to opening the checkbook is baffling right now.
Nicky Lopez for Flexen?????
kcmark;
I don’t believe it!?!?!?!?
A realistic proposal…and a good one!
Nicky Lopez? The one with 5 career HR. And OPS of 630?
Tis the season
And a great glove.
Chris Flexen is a tad underrated.
Compare the stats over the past two seasons for righthanders Jameson Taillon, Taijuan Walker and Flexen:
JT 321.2 IP, 4.08 ERA, 100 ERA+, 4.2 fWAR, 3.5 bWAR
TW 316.2 IP, 3.98 ERA, 99 ERA+, 3.9 fWAR, 3.1 bWAR
CF 317.2 IP, 3.66 ERA, 108 ERA+, 3.7 fWAR, 4.7 bWAR
The Seattle Mariners reportedly are shopping Flexen, who is two years younger than Walker and two-and-a-half years younger than Taillon. Flexen lost some luster in August when Luis Castillo bumped Flexen from the Seattle rotation.
Many will point to Flexen’s drop in fWAR from 3.0 in 2021 to 0.7 in 2022. However, Walker has never posted an fWAR above 2.5 and Taillon has not exceeded 2.3 fWAR since 2018.
Columnist Tim Britton at The Athletic projects Taillon and Walker with contracts in the four-year, $56 million range.
Flexen is guaranteed a 2023 salary of $8 million in what MLB Trade Rumors reports is his final year of team control (despite Flexen currently sitting on two years and 107 days of MLB service).
Seattle already has a great glove in Dylan Moore at 2B. They need someone who can hit!
Another option bring in a lefty 1b and move France to 2nd Base!! If you can find better value there
France won’t hold up, and can’t really handle, at second base.
Absolute joke. We are in the bottom half of the league in payroll. Houston is adding even more firepower and we are shopping in the bargain bin with a true chance to compete. It sucks loving this franchise and having Dipoto handcuff us with his weird fascination with Crawford.
Not only that, but his neurotic fascination with trading. Just spend money. It might be a tough pill to swallow, but this is our absolute correct window of contention to do it.
He’s not handcuffing anyone.
It makes zero sense to come out and say they’re moving JP off of SS before they even know who the alternative would be, and I don’t think the possibility of asking a star to move, or share a position, would be a deal-breaker.
Seattle’s money is just as good as any other team’s money and most SSs move to 2B or 3B eventually, anyway.
And nothing he said was definitive.
I said this exact thing 2 weeks ago. I couldn’t agree more.
I think your confusing Bargain Bin shopping with fans comments;
instead of dipoto going out and acquiring the likes of Castillo and Hernandez
Don’t blame Dipoto. He’s not the one writing the checks… or not writing them.
I’m not buying it.
Of course they’re going to ask about every possible available middle infielder, but Hollander and Dipoto know they need stars, and they’ve been clear that they have financial flexibility to get the right player(s).
Jerry specially talked about having patience as well, which is the opposite of how he/they approach targeted players on the trade front, Their willingness to wait things out suggests they will be players for free agents, though the winter meetings might might cut some of the waiting short.
Whether or not they land one of the big free agents remains to be seen, but Seattle isn’t going to cite specific names, or suggest that they’ll outbid anybody to get who they want. They’ll keep quiet until a deal is reached, whether it’s a FA or a trade acquisition.
What Ken Rosenthal is suggesting is probably of a hunch, given other teams’ interest in the big four SSs, Seattle’s past reluctance to sign stars to enormous contracts., and the numerous phone calls he is known to have made with a number of teams (Rays, Yankees, Brewers, ‘Jays, etc.).
I absolutely wouldn’t rule them out on anyone. right now. They could use a LHH, but that could very well be an outfielder.
You forget, Stevil… what was made clear was the financial flexibility “IF it makes sense”. That’s ownership’s PR foundation when Seattle doesn’t make the big move needed. “We tried… but it just didn’t make sense for what they were asking and what we needed.”
The fact they put that little asterisk there should concern you.
I didn’t forget anything.
It should go without saying that the deal has to make sense. They’re not going to pay 40m AAV, for example, to land Trea Turner or Brandon Nimmo.
I’ll add a little more….
Seattle handed out extensions for Julio and Luis that can max out at nearly 600m. Those came after they signed Ray to a 5/115 deal.
They are already showing a willingness to spend and payroll is still bottom-half of the league. Does it make sense to come this far only to draw a line and say “Well, that’s as far as we can go!”.
We know they made a competitive offer to Trevor Story last season, before he ultimately chose Boston. The middle-infield need is arguably more glaring this offseason. It’s highly unlikely their Plan A or B is a mediocre-at-best trade option, or an unproven prospect. If that were the case, they might as well give the job to Moore.
Do they still have Robbie Cano’s number?
An impactful second baseman that will help them catch the Astros-PERIOD
A lot of those names mention the article aren’t going to cut it
Jason Kipnis says he’s bored, and to give him a call.
Other LH 2B trade options:
Ryan McMahon (COL)
Luis Garcia (WAS)
Josh Rojas (ARI)
Eduardo Escobar (NYM)
Ji-Hwan Bae (PIT)
On the minor league side, there are some very interesting dudes in the upper minors including:
Wenceel Perez (DET)
Angel Martinez (CLE) Rule 5 exposed
Brayan Rocchio (CLE)
Terrin Vavra (BAL)
Michael Massey (KCR)
Jonathan Arranda (TBR)
Michael Busch (LAD)
Brice Turang (MIL)
Edouard Julien (MIN)
Ronny Mauricio (NYM)
Addison Barger (TOR)
Everyday;
Nice research.
The problem is that most teams that have those prospects would only trade them if they get back an upper level player so they can win in 2023…..the same position the Mariners are in. Toronto is desperate (it’s slipping away). Do you have a ML young veteran CF you can trade them or a couple up inexpensive proven relief pitchers?
Teams seldom trade top prospects for prospects.
Spot on. However, I think the M’s match up with some of these teams for a MLB player-for prospect deal. Some of these teams have logjams in the IF and can’t roster these guys who re on the cusp or already are MLB ready. They are good players, but many of them are 2nd or 3rd in their org depth chart for MIF. Combine that with an immediate need on the MLB roster that could be filled by some of the M’s excess, and you find a match. For example, Chris Flexen in a package to TOR to get Barger could make some sense for both teams. Toronto has a lot of MIF depth and the M’s have a lot of pitching depth. Barger appears just a few ABs shy of MLB-ready. Baltimore could be viewed similarly if they decide to contend. Tampa has a huge number of MIF with nowhere to play and MIL and MIN could decide to let a mid level prospect go for a solid starting pitcher like Flexen. M’s also have Tom Murphy, who they could dangle for teams in need of catching. Murphy’s a FA after ’23 and catching is a hot commodity. Tom, if made available, could be enough to pry away a decent prospect, not a top prospect. I know Cleveland is looking hard for catching amongst others on this list. Once Sean Murphy and Contreras are off the table, teams will get desperate. Perhaps that’s why they traded for Cooper Hummel. Food for thought. Fun to speculate possibilities.
Cheers.
Ryan McMahon and Michael Busch are very interesting I would definitely welcome Ryan as an established 2B, and Busch as an up and comer who has proven himself in the minors though for Busch not sure the M’s want to take a chance on a Minor leaguer to make their debut to be the piece they want!
Yeah. Taking a flyer on the MILB guys is certainly a risky bet. On the other hand, you could hit big on a guy with many years of club control. MLB guys are also risky and routinely collapse from their norms (Wink wink-er). So, it’s really up to scouting to make this call. To be honest, I’m really confident int he M’s knowing when pitching is ready, but they don’t seem to be as good at understanding if the bat is ready. So if it were the Astros or Dodgers making one of these deals, I’d be confident, maybe not so much with the m’s on a position player.
Problem is, the Rockies have few MLB players, but McMahon is one of them. What are the Mariners gonna offer?
Word on the street is Dan Uggla is mashing softballs from the left side in beer leagues around metro Atlanta. Go get him Seattle.
I’m sure the Royals would part with Mondosi. High upside if he stays healthy.
What, no mention of Odor? 🙂
“They may be getting priced out”… shocking.
andrew velazquez would be a good fit thoug he is a swatch hitter.
They could try for a Ketel Marte reunion!! Switch hitter (gives them the left handed hitting element), now hes a veteran in the MLB! M’s have the pieces to trade to make it happen!
I’m actually looking for a no-armed second baseman. That would be something to watch.
Here’s a name: Josh H. Smith
Something Wong. Kolton blows
Saying JP Crawford is the answer at SS is ludicrous and delirious at best. Seattle needs to fill the holes in the offense and go for it. You don’t have to win the Division to get to the series. Very few teama get to the top by not adding a all star caliber player or two when the time is right
GriffeyJrFan;
All you fans are assuming that the young Mariner players will be as good as or better in 2023 then they were in 2022.
I’m not a Mariner fan, but I’m wondering why you don’t have prospects to come up and shore up the weakness, or a number of quality prospects to trade for some veterans. I kept reading posts about how great the farm system is. Well?
Over the past two seasons the once highly regarded Seattle farm system has graduated a slew of prospects. Many of those graduates propelled the Mariners into the postseason where the M’s were outscored by four runs in a three-game sweep by the World Series champion Astros. Other prospects helped secure Luis Castillo, Eugenio Suarez, Jesse Winker and Teoscar Hernandez in trades.
Seattle executive Jerry Dipoto speaks highly of the club’s young top prospects who are years away from making MLB debuts. The farm system rankings reflect that distance.
The farm system produced Julio, Cal Raleigh, Logan Gilbert, George Kirby, Penn Murfee, Matt Festa, fixed Erik Swanson (recently traded), Andrés Muñoz, and Matt Brash.
That’s a lot of prospects that have stepped up and filled holes.
There’s still the possibility of Kelenic working out (he’s just 23), White, if healthy, Cade Marlowe is close, and a load of pitchers (Miller, Dollard, Hancock, Berroa, Campbell), and Woo),
But they’re at the point where they need more certainty. They’re young enough as it is. The farm system has graduated a lot of players the last two years and most of the fielding talent is in the lower minors now and the two infielders they traded for Castillo are more than a year out.
They need veterans/experience.
But they’re being “out priced”… which tells you everything about this ownership taking a REAL step towards competitiveness. They signed Julio (obvious move) and Ray (bought high off career year) and Castillo (after trading major pieces… had to keep him)… but now they’re showing little internet in any more big commitments. I wish they’d sell this team! Wasting all of our time!
Baby boy
This owners group has had the team for what 3 years? When they bought they said they were going to build a winner no matter the cost. What exactly have they done to show you they will not spend money?
They didn’t run out the first year and spend a billion dollars to get all the top named FAs? They are being priced out according to who? A writer that has to write something to keep his job?
You have zero idea what they are or aren’t doing. They are waiting but until when? Maybe until the winter meetings.
You can’t hold this group to what the past owners group did. They ran the team like a business to make a profit not like a sports team.
I don’t understand the hate for this group that has built a very good team over a couple years that will be good for years to come. They didn’t go out and sign a guy like Seager last year because it didn’t make a ton of sense. JP was coming off a GG season let the Rangers sign a guy like that and still not be good enough to make the playoffs.
Lastly what LH or any handed SS/2nd bm will will take them past the Astros next year? I am not sure if Turner does. They need to fix the last problem in the OF then they will have a chance to get past them.
They weren’t ‘out priced’ for Ray, nor was that a high price, and it apparently wasn’t the money influenced Story’s decision.
Luis didn’t have to sign an extension. He could have played out his final year of control to hit free agency in 2024, and Seattle’s intent right now is to explore every possible option. They’ve been linked to the big name free agents as well as possible trade targets.
I think it’s worth being patient and seeing how this all plays out.
Remember that a LH hitter will have an increased average just by the fact that the shift will be eliminated. I like Frazier for a bounce back. He’s always hit until 2022 and he’ll not cost any prospects or other players.
How about trading Seward to the Mets for Eduardo Escobar to play 2nd base for the Mariners?
Sewald? He’s worth alot more than Escobar The M’s could probably get Escuabar for alot less.
You know who can be the LH 2B? JP Crawford…..
Why create a $200mm hole at SS?
All the talk about the padres possibly moving cronenworth worth to 1st. Maybe they are willing to trade him.
Prob not that likely but the mariners and padres have made a few trades in recent years. So I wouldn’t rule that out. Either for prospects or starting pitching.
Leury Garcia might be your man. However, he is probably deemed untouchable by Rick Hahn.
Hmmm…Cronenworth could be had for the right price..Something involving Winker and Kelenic with other pieces could be a match Padres need OF/DH, and these two GM’s are never afraid to shake things up..
I could imagine a Tommy LaStella trade if the Giants take a little of the salary and get a depth piece in return.
As much as I would love to see La Stella traded away, no way do the M’s trade for him. He has negative trade value. Though maybe a bad contract swap would work.
Giants have to take more than “a little off the salary.”
I would imagine close to half with a prospect included. I suppose that is more than “a little”.
Not saying its a great idea, but LaStella probably has more in the tank if he is healthy
I’m not sure Seattle has enough of what St. Louis wants to get Gorman. Not thrilled about Hancock. Sounds like a Reyes or Flaherty. Good stuff, but never pitches, and always broken. Not sure why people throw Gorman around like St. Louis is just dying to get rid of him.
They have enough. I’m not crazy about trading Gorman either, but give me either Raleigh or Kellenic and I’m in.
Raleigh isn’t going anywhere. He’s far too valuable. Only a matter of time until the team has him locked up to a long contract.
Kelenic however is trade bait. There is an absolute Superstar in that kid, no doubt about it. It’s just that some team needs to help him unlock it.
Kelenic is not trade bait. He will be on this team in April (barring injury) This is a quote from Dipoto on Nov. 11th:
“But where Kel fits, that story will be told – whether that is an everyday position, whether as a fourth outfielder or a member of a four-man rotation – is going to be defined by what we do in this market via trade and free agency.”
Kelenic’s contract and potential to break out is too valuable to this team. For all the talk about the Mariners “willingness to spend,” they’re still a low-to-mid level payroll team… until they prove otherwise.
Actually he is. Jerry was shopping him last trade deadline. If that’s not trade bait I don’t know what is. And that’s from Ryan Divish the M’s beat writer.
Just because Jerry says something does not negate the fact that deals can and will be made between now and then. Just look at his stance on Crawford being “the guy” at SS.
The Seattle’s Times is reporting it.
twitter.com/IISwitchII/status/1596651610884968448?…
The Mariners are looking for a second baseman, probably not Nolan Gorman, who this year posted a negative 6 Defensive Runs Saved, a negative 12 Outs Above Average and a negative 2.2 UZR/150 in 548.2 innings at second base (to go with a mundane .300 on-base percentage).
What’s Dustin Ackley up to? Still going with Braxton Davidson school of don’t swing no matter what.
McNeil for Kelenic. Done. And perhaps the Mets now pursue Turner.
Orioles need pitching and have a crowd of MIF prospects. Even if he doesn’t hit lefty, Connor Norby hit an OPS of .892 v RH pitchers and .858 v LHers. With Holliday, Westburg, and Ortiz ahead of him on prospect lists, and Hernadez, Young, and Hernaiz not far behind, he might be available. Chris Flexen alone might not be enough, but Bryce Miller is in the same 40+ rating on fangraphs. Maybe Flexen and Miller for Norby and a relief arm prospect?
The Ms could, at some cost in fan dissatisfaction, re-sign Adam Frazier until Norby is ready, but Norby’s rep and youth seems like a nice fit going forward. Dipoto has said he wants to build a perennial contender; Norby looks to me like another Ty France type that could be on base for Julio and Teoscar to drive in, and might be ready by mid-2023.