The Pirates have gotten off to a difficult start in 2025. The club is 8-15 overall, leaving them in last place in the NL Central and six games back of the division-leading Cubs. While the club’s pitching staff is right around league average by measure of ERA and top-six by FIP, an offense that has produced a wRC+ of just 70 to this point in the year. Despite those struggles on offense, general manager Ben Cherington told reporters (including Kevin Gorman of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review) before Friday’s game that external solutions to the lineup are unlikely, though the team is always open to exploring deals.
“It’s April. Most teams are going to rely on the players that are inside the organization,” Cherington said. “We certainly have an eye out and already we have an eye outside the organization. We will keep an eye on things. We keep having conversations, but trades don’t usually happen this soon. We’ve got to rely on the guys that are here….We are going to get healthier. And then over the course of the season if we do what I believe we will do, then they’ll be opportunities to add to it at some point.”
Spencer Horwitz, Nick Gonzales, and Endy Rodriguez are all currently on the injured list, robbing the Bucs of three players expected to operate in starting or regular roles this season. Perhaps their returns will be enough to get Pittsburgh on track, yet the Pirates will also need several of their healthy but struggling regulars to start heating up.
More from around the NL Central…
- The Brewers’ injury-riddled rotation might be getting some help this week with the return of Tobias Myers, who told MLB.com’s Adam McCalvy that he expects to be activated from the 15-day IL to start Thursday’s game. Myers suffered an oblique strain in mid-March that delayed his 2025 debut, but he came out of his third minor league rehab start Friday feeling in good shape, and ready to get back to the Show. It is a testament to Milwaukee’s pitching depth and development that even the makeshift version of its rotation is still posting good numbers, but obviously the Crew will happily welcome back Myers. A surprise emergence himself during his 2024 rookie season, Myers posted a 3.00 ERA over 138 innings for the Brewers last year.
- Spencer Steer was the Reds’ starting first baseman today, marking the first time this season that Steer has played a position other than designated hitter. Steer’s longstanding right shoulder problems have been an issue since last season, and after the injury resurfaced during Spring Training, the decision was made to keep Steer as a DH (and off the injured list) until he could throw without discomfort. Today’s return to the field is a good sign that things are slowly returning to normal for Steer, though the larger issue is his ice-cold start at the plate — Steer had a .111/.186/.204 slash line in 59 plate appearances heading into today’s game.
As a lifelong diehard Pirates fan, I want them to trade Skenes ASAP to a team that cares. Young man deserves better.
That’s rough, only way to make it worse would be by trading him, Hayes, and Cruz for Chris Archer…. or his 2025 equivalent
LaFleur;
I’d trade Hayes and Cruz just to get rid of their contracts.
Cruz is getting 700 and some thousand. So you are getting rid of his contract only to replace him with another guy making 700 and some thousand?
Samuel- Both Hayes and Cruz would get something back in return and if good enough ML’ers they should do it.
If Hayes is healthy he is signed for several more years.
Cruz is never going to be any better than he is now.He is talented but has never been held accountable and that is a drag on a team.
I’m taking a different route. Lose as many games as it takes to get rid of Shelton. The future is bright, but not with Shelton.
Life isn’t bright with the MORON jagoff…he’s just as clueless as the Cheetos Pres
alwaysgo4two, it’s much deeper than just Shelton.
This was the lineup for the Pirates on Saturday:
DH Cruz
RF Reynolds
3B Hayes
1B Valdez
LF Pham
2B Frazier
SS Triolo
CF Suwinski
C Davis
Easily the 2 most talented hitters in this lineup were acquired by Neal Huntington (Cruz via Dodgers and Reynolds via Giants)
ONLY Davis was drafted by Ben Cherington!!
Huntingdon turning the worst organization in sports into the second best team in baseball in year 3 of making the playoffs was basically a miracle.
But, yinzers always think the grass is greener…
I liked Huntington and he did a good job here but in all honesty after he and Hurdle got four year contracts and were tired of not having money their performances went downhill very quickly.
What a stupid response
The grass is certainly greener in similar markets. In Milwaukee, where they are a perennial contender. In Cleveland, which is much the same story. In KC. In Baltimore. And the Tampa, where the blueprint for small market success was first devised
Greener grass? In Pittsburgh, the grass has been burned out in comparison by a carpetbagging owner who knows little about baseball but is someone who owns a franchise to make a killing, not just a profit
Greener grass? How does one explain being listed as the 3rd most profitable franchise in MLB in 2024 and still field such a pathetic ball team?
Yinzers? You mean the taxpayers whose tax dollars built the palace the Pirates conduct business in, right? For an owner who feels no civic responsibility to field a competitive team. Whose view of fans is illustrated in ripping out fan-sponsored bricks without informing owners, and tearing down a commemorative display of the all time baseball hero in this town, Roberto Clemente, and replace it with advertising
Yinzers not only think the grass is greener, they know it. All fans want is an owner who does all he can to field a hustling, competitive team. I don’t know of any “yinzers “ who demand league championships or World Series championships in MLB’s era of allowing major market teams to bury everyone else
Nonetheless, your continued rants about “Yinzers” are somewhere between misinformed, sophomoric, boring and just plain stupid
Try writing as if you understand baseball before embarrassing yourself any further with such prepubescent blather
George Bailey is a yinzer coward who rants and runs. Unmuting, replying and then remuting and then talks “sophomoric”. Sad little yinzer. Exactly what I’m talking about…
Imagine being a grown man who has to hide under his bed.
Huntingdon had all of the disadvantages (more, even) that Cherington had and MAGICALLY succeeded. Sure, it didn’t last because he works for the worst organization in baseball.
Let me know when Cherington can even see that high water mark, let alone sniff it, let alone touch it.
You need to have a plan to get better, not just dissatisfaction with the status quo. That’s the part that keeps getting missed in this town.
Huntington’s demise was hubris. He did a great job constructing rosters and acquiring key parts of that successful three-year run. But then he didn’t build on it when he had a perfect opportunity to do so right in his lap. Refusing to make a decent offer to JA Happ and telling the press and fans, “Pitchers should pay us to pitch here,” because of the success Searage had in turning some guys around was insane. Searage could work with some guys, but how was it Charlie Morton became a top pitcher for several years only after leaving Pittsburgh? Huntington’s inflexibility to adapt to a league that caught up with his methodology doomed him, but at least he proved that like with the Rays and A’s, Pittsburgh can figure out how to field a competitive team on a nothing budget. Cherington can’t do that.
Well chuck..I don’t believe you ate the real Chuck from Uniontown. But what you just said proves that you really aren’t a lifelong pirate fan
Sadly this team isnt going to build a competitive squad around Skenes before they trade him. He is a generational talent and yeah, I’d rather get to watch him pitch for a team that cares to win. I’ll be a Skenes fan no matter where he ends up.
It’s very disheartening for fans of the Pirates,a team with such a rich history. The fans ,the city, the team deserve better. If you cannot compete financially, why would you purchase a team ? I have not been there but the ballpark looks stunning on TV. I did see them play at Three-Rivers once, way back when, the artificial turf was ripped open in the outfield.
Nutting was the 8th richest MLB owner in 2010, today he’s ranked 23rd. He hasn’t lost any money, but others have earned a lot more.
And yet, his franchise was 3rd most profitable in 2024. The PG has done research into the Pirates’ financial structure in great detail over the past five years. I tend to trust their view that Nutting is making a great deal of profit.
It’s unfortunate that there is no semblance of responsibility in building a competitive team with a portion of that profit
But why should Nutting?
Bobble head give away result in lines backing downtown. Fireworks nights are sell outs.
Despite having a minor league team playing in baseball’s nicest park, the Pirates have not been forced to watch fans staying away in droves.
The MLB revenue stream is the golden ticket. TV deals sweeten things greatly. Concessions, ticket sales and the like are icing on the cake
Nutting may be the worst owner in sports but his ledger is a thing of beauty
Didn’t Dejan Kovacevic prove that the Pirates lost money last year?
I think I’ll go with the PG’s reporting over the past few years as well as what Forbes has published before Kovacevic
I take any third party analysis of an MLB teams finances with a huge grain of salt.
Ben Cherington:
“We are going to get healthier. And then over the course of the season if we do what I believe we will do, then they’ll be opportunities to add to it at some point.”
Spinning this current disaster as primarily “health-based” is clue #1 that he’s out of touch with reality. Clue #2 is that he believes the Pirates will have enough success to eventually ADD this season.
Clue #3: Derek Shelton is STILL the manager.
Horwitz, Gonzales, and E Rodriguez have .650 OPS written all over them. Yea, can’t wait to watch different mediocre players when they get healthy. Maybe pull up that team wRC from 70 up to about 85
Endy maybe, but no way on Gonzales or Horwitz unless something really goes sour. Gonzales was a really solid hitter last season, and Horwitz was probably the second best hitting rookie last year behind Jackson Merrill. I would be absoutley floored if his OPS dropped by nearly 150 points.
Horwitz was hitting 2nd behind a red hot Guerrero last year. When Horwitz was moved down in the order, his numbers trailed off. Couple that with a wrist injury that somehow genius Cherrington knew nothing about, and i’ll be shocked if Horwitz has an OPS above .720
I disagree still. Horwitz has always shown good plate discipline, pitch recognition and average power. Pitch recognition and raw power don’t go away based on where you’re batting in the line-up or who is hitting in front of you. On top of that, PNC Park will heavily favor him. He had an OPS over .850 on the road, and PNC favors left-handed hitters.
Great stadium,but a bad team with bad owners..
It’s gotten so bad, the Buccos’ TV station is muting “sell the team” chants during home games.
I used to like Greg Brown but even he has resorted to talking about exit velocities for guys who are 0-for-their-last-three-games. Neil Walker generally stops short of criticizing lack of hustle or mental lapses with casual “Oh my’s”
And Joe Black? Jon Wehner?
The best way to watch a Pirates game is with the volume muted
Wehner will still tell you when bad happens. So will Walk.
That’s a rarity in both cases
There just aren’t many commentators who’ll tell it like it is anymore, not that Pittsburgh ever had one to begin with
I need a laughing instead of like button. It’s getting close to that here in the Twin Cities.
If only that stadium was built for owners who give a shift. It’s so beautiful
mlb1225, Horowitz was only supposed to be sidelined for 8-9 weeks when he was injured
It’s been 12 weeks and he hasn’t started his rehab yet
Of course, Cherington lied about the extent of his injury
By the time he returns they easily could have lost 25 games and out of contention this early in the season
Believe Cherington had his last chance this last off season. In 6 seasons not one multiple year FA signing. The lack of offense has discouraged the most loyal fans. Had every opportunity to make this team better, but regardless the biggest issue has and always will be Nutting.
Thank your gods. You want Yoshi Tellez Pham for more than 1 year? I think Rich Hill is over the Hill.
@wv I absolutely agree they should have spent more. Had they tho I doubt they would ve been able to add anyone of real significance. Last few years the free agent classes have been kinda low on # of impact players. The trend of extending young talent that has been growing is now showing in free agency every year.
As for who in particular they could ve and should ve signed, I can’t think of anyone in particular who would have wanted to sign that would have made a significant impact. The Tigers were in same position in early 2000s. They got extremely lucky, they over paid Pudge and he produced. They took a chance on Magglio coming off injury as well as an aging Kenny Rogers. All 3 signings worked out amazingly. They then supplemented with trades like Guillen and Miggy, it took all of that to become a place free agents wanted to sign. The point I’m getting at is I don’t see any of the Pudge/Magglio/Rogers types that could ve been signed for them to have made improvements of significance.
Before the season the Kepler’s and Confortnos were realistic names mentioned but they chose to sign with the teams they did foe obvious reasons but those guys are stinking it up. Adding good players really isn’t an easy thing to do. At this point to get a really good young position player would probably require trading Jones or Chandler and I don’t see that happening. They need to do something because what they have isn’t working
For PIT to have signed either I’d assume it would ve taken a multi yr deal at or above the same AAV. And like you said they ve both been stinking it up.
I think your right about making a trade. If I was GM Chandler or Ashcraft would be who I’d try and move if looking to add immediate big league help.
Cherington may not have the ability to sign any free agents to multi year deals.
I don’t think Cherington is any good as a GM but you need to be an elite GM to have any success with Bob Nutting owning your ballclub.
I have seen the recent trades made by Ben in the last few years.
Ortiz for Horowitz?
I would rather he resign and allow a better deal maker to take over
I’d do Ortiz for Horwitz 8 days a week.
You have a great deal of faith in Horwitz. I hope you’re right. I really do. Easy for me to react in that the Pirates are missing a big cog in their starting rotation and I have only seen bits and pieces of Horwitz.
one thing Cherington had the ability to do and has failed miserably.
Player development.
There’s not one position player in the minors that he drafted that’s ready to be promoted
Horowitz hasn’t even played a game yet nor has he started rehabilitation
Looking at who Cherington replaced Ortiz in the rotation, you have to question why Chandler wasn’t given that spot instead of using a reliever up until this year
“Looking at who Cherington replaced Ortiz in the rotation”
Heaney and 2.13 era looks good to me.
Heaney’s last start was tremendous. The one before that was the opposite. We’ll see how he pans out.
Jones going down only reinforced the need to keep Ortiz. Chandler and others on the farm weren’t going to be brought up to start the season. Oviedo’s return after TJ surgery had to be hazy
It was a shortsighted trade to say the least.
You’d like to think that competent GMs examine all possibilities before making a trade. But then, this is the same GM who floated the idea of listening to offers for Keller and Jones
That would indicate that the “rebuild” being complete is an idea that’s scoffed at even by management.
Heaney at worst is the same as Ortiz. Probably slightly better.
Now we are talking Pirates Ortiz. Pirates 20 something in pitching development. Cleveland top 5 in pitching development. If someone said top 3 or even best in baseball I wouldn’t argue. Top 5 though is pretty safe claim that most people would agree with. As a Pirate Ortiz never had more than 7 strike outs in a game. In Cleveland he already has a 8 and 10 strike out game. Could just be luck. The world lined up for him against KC and he got 10 k’s. The 8 against the Pirates isn’t impressive right. But if he tops 7 a couple more times it’s safe to say they improved him. Still doesn’t matter because he wouldn’t have done it in Pittsburgh. They aren’t Cleveland.
Who wouldn’t want to trade Jones for a impact bat? Well you wouldn’t. And most Pirates fans wouldn’t. And unfortunately other teams were smart enough to not trade for Jones. Small man who throws ball very hard not good for arm as seen by him being on IL. You think he will escape getting TJ in next 5 years? Pirates didn’t. 29 other teams didn’t. I’m guessing but it’s as obvious as it gets. Odds of him being healthy weren’t good.
As for Keller he makes too much money for a 80 some million payroll team. Fair contract even good but he’s closer to a Heaney Quintana who anyone could have gotten for 5m than a Skenes.
I would say listening on Keller Jones was smart but that would be exaggerating. It’s just doing your job. I wish he would have traded both of them. Unfortunately other teams weren’t stupid enough.
You criticize Cherington on all these moves but you predicted 70 72 wins. What would Branch Rickey say….. He could have traded Skenes and it wouldn’t matter. Just as long as it was after his bobblehead day!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not sure about Pirates being 20 something in pitching development.
Give credit where it is due and Oscar is the one employee who earns his money.
I would have sent Jones to Boston for Casas if the Red Sox would have taken it.
They probably knew better.
They are biding their time to bring Bubba up.Carmen then goes to the bullpen.Then Nicolas and his extremely high walk rate and era goes down to AAA.
It is pretty clear that he does not.
And elite GMs go to the wealthy big market teams.
They need to get a young guy who can grow into the position.
But I doubt that Nutting would have any idea as to who to get.
Ashcraft may have been dangled but was not good enough or have proven healthy enough to get a ready ML hitter.
Bubba is not going anywhere.
I don’t generally criticize Cherington. I don’t know for certain but suspect he is under parameters financially and is subject to oversight. As you’ve stated, Nutting is a Hall of Famer when it comes to finances. It would follow that he will not give a GM Carte Blanche with a checking account.
By your own accounting, the “rebuild is over”. If that’s truly the case then the rebuild itself was set in motion just to trade kids before they ripen as major leaguers? How does that make sense, exactly? There is nothing coming up from the minors. Aside from Griffin, who is likely a couple years away. Just what kind of bat would Jones have brought? Keller?
It’s indicative of management that has no sense of purpose and no real goals. They see their rebuild had many holes and instead of trying to shore up those areas as other small markets have done, they’ve decided to flail around and dog paddle
Point is, if you’re floating guys like Keller and Jones and if you trade Ortiz for a bag of peanuts, you’re indicating the rebuild was a failure and are looking to burn it all down again
As for Ortiz, I prefer to look at the performance rather than the data, and you seem to be using pretzel logic here. As a Pirate, his starts down the stretch were good, save for the D’Backs nightmare. I’d argue he was their number 2 down the stretch with little run support.
Your claim that his strikeout totals are up thanks to being an Ind…er…Guardian is somewhat baffling
Meanwhile, I’ve seen Heaney for years now. Serviceable pitcher. A lot like Randy Tomlin or Zane Smith. Older than Ortiz. And more costly.
Look, you continue to have your viewpoint. I respect that. I just think trading Ortiz was part of a panic take that screams to me that the Pirates front office recognizes their rebuild is in shambles. Floating guys who are part of this team’s only strength confirms it
He replaced Ortiz with Carmen
Heaney was a free agent signing
Yep. I know that. But with Jones going down, does it matter?
Chandler should have been promoted to take Jones’ place in the rotation, not a reliever who doesn’t have the skills to pitch.multiple innings
Heaney was signed a month before Jones was hurt. Heaney was signed to replace Ortiz. Nutting didn’t spend 5m for Mlod to start over Heaney. Carmen was desperation after Jones got hurt and the prospects stunk during spring, Oviedo got hurt, Ortiz traded.
Chandler wasn’t ready yet. Service time manipulation wasn’t ready either. Why waste a year on this loser team.
if it’s such a losing team, why does service time manipulation matter?
Chandler would be traded long before he hits free agency
Why’s it baffling? Look at Cleveland pitching history. They develop pitchers. Look at pirates pitching history. Guys get developed better once they go elsewhere. Weak development to elite development guys will become better. I don’t see anything baffling about it.
Rebuild was weak. Still complete though. Can’t start another one yet. Like literally can’t. So gotta try something. You can’t develop bats at all. Ortiz is just a guy for you. You aren’t going to be able to develop the 2 prospects into anything useful. So you trade your trash for a bat.
You aren’t trading Keller Jones for some rental. You are bringing back the hitter equivalent to them. 5 6 years of control young bat. Except with Jones size and Keller salary teams weren’t going to fall for it. They weren’t throwing away young players. They were just swapping arms for bats. There’s arms in free agency. Arms in farm system. No bats though.
Cherington should have been fired but there wasn’t much he could do other than done slightly better than Pham. That wouldn’t make any difference. And losing Horowitz Gonzales was a blow. Even Endy hurts. Bart missed few games. Cutch not able or allowed to play outfield with Reynolds forced to dh. Bats stunk when at 100 percent. To lose all that hurts big. But year 6. Who’s fault is it there is no depth? Who refused to sign an additional outfielder that cost nothing?
Idiots running this team at every level. It’s always Shelton Shelton Shelton from fans. Even though he is the worst at his job he is least responsible because he is at such a low level. He doesn’t scout develop trade sign players. Canario Suwinski Davis Pham Frazier Triolo they all stink. Some combination of them has to play. Cheng Gorski Yorke Cook Williams Peguero all stink. Doesn’t matter who you have on team or what order they bat. They stink. No manager is winning with this trash. Shelton awful but irrelevant.
@Mendoza Don’t confuse development with reclamation or teams just being stupid or just playing the numbers game. The relievers pirates got this year were already good just other teams were stupid. Like I always said and still say. Cherington is perfectly capable of recognizing talent. He just can’t hire the right people to develop it.
Skenes Jones Keller Bubba all elite arms. All high draft picks. All big bonus. Great they developed them. That’s why they are near 20 and not 25 or 30.
But who they develop from international? Ortiz. Anyone else? That’s it? Back rotation. That’s why the guys in charge of international got fired. Have to go back to Marte to find a impact player internationally. Let that sink in. Marte. Dudes old and near retirement.
Draft and international signings. How high do you want to out a team who gets absolutely nothing out of half their development pool? 20 something is fair if not generous.
And don’t forget it was Harrington not pirates coaching that got a half foot more movement from Jones fastball. It takes a village but combine that with Gonzales Tellez Davis all being fixed by non pirates coaching and Hayes having to sneak to Altoona and that poor guy getting fired there’s a serious problem with development. But yeah pitching development superior to hitting. But absolutely nothing from International half.
But if you want to rave about it fine. I’m not impressed.
Agree about Shelton. You can’t get blood from a stone. Aside from poor game management my biggest problem with him is his reluctance to discipline players for lack of hustle and focus. That kind of problem becomes contagious and before long, you have any number of players who dog it or whose focus is in the clouds. That’s evident here game in and game out
Cruz is at the top of that list. Kid could be a star—who knows—but he’s allowed to conduct himself like a prima donna. I’ll spare you the laundry list of young players who emulate his approach. It shows everywhere, in the field, on the basepaths and as TheMan3 has often noted, at bat. They remind me of high school kids
A Showalter type would have meant a great deal to this team. Instead, they have Uncle Sheltie
Still, pitching is/was their strength. You just don’t detract from a strength and make it a weakness. Especially when the rest of your staff is either cutting their teeth on the farm or coming back from surgery
You miss the point about Heaney. I’m aware of when they signed him. I’m glad he’s had a couple nice starts. I’ve seen enough of him to say a younger, aggressive pitcher trumps a journeyman whose had ups and downs and as evidenced in the Reds game, goes to pieces in jams
Again, why dump the younger guy even with a healthy Jones for an unproven bat that you know has an injury?
The development of pitching fails in this sense. The kid was making strides. Age-wise he fit into the rebuild narrative. But perhaps Horwitz will be the big cog some believe he’ll be. Guess we’ll find out
I somehow had Mendoza muted. My big thumbs again. Many apologies. Was not intended in any way
Before trading anyone, let’s get a look at Solak and Gorski. Gorski’s K rate is now down to 25% from mid-30s. Solak is hitting everything. Both can play first and OF. It’s ridiculous that we’re giving Pham ABs. Frazier should be a defensive replacement for late innings if anything. I don’t know what the heck Indy management is doing to Nick Yorke, but he’s turned into a K machine (35%). And Cook’s bat isn’t doing much. Those are two guys who could be moved to an organization that will help them. They were both excellent acquisitions for Bucs, but we seem to be killing them.
Casas is getting benched in Boston. He is not having a good year
I was hardly raving about it,but 10 or so is better than 20.
You are preaching to the choir as it does not take a Dream GM to know that the Pirates are awful at developing players otherwise.
And,yes,their Caribbean scouts have even been more downright awful.
You say about the waiver wire finds.Why do you think that these guys have to some extent flourished here?Do you think that that has anything to do with Marin?That was what Searage was really good at.
You are correct about the four best pitchers that you mention.But they do have some pitching depth in the upper minors also.Burrowes,Harrington,and Ashcraft could turn out to be good ML pitchers.They obviously lucked into Skenes,but these other three guys have had to be developed too.
I am impressed with the pitching as I have followed this team for 64 years and they used to develope hitters but never pitchers.
I find it interesting that I just saw another article saying that Charlie Hayes has said that KeBryan is not getting good instruction on how to hit.
Doh.
And that is the problem with young players.
But he has promise and his best trait is that he did not come up through the Pirates “development” system.
The problem with young pitchers is that their arms fall off.
Makes them more valuable to trade.
You just severely overvalue Ortiz. Ortiz era was fake last year. Should have been well over 4. He was lucky. If Cleveland improves him good for them. Pittsburgh wasn’t. I only care what he did as a pirate. He wasn’t any better than Heaney. They traded Ortiz and replaced his production with Heaney.
Horowitz looked promising. After wrist surgery who knows.
Ortiz has 5 something era. Heaney 2 something. They aren’t better yet if they kept Ortiz. I expect his era will lower significantly but don’t expect it to be drastically different from Heaney. Heaney might even be better.
When ready and healthy Skenes Bubba Keller Jones are the playoff starters. I don’t really care who the 5th guy is. Hopefully Ashcraft Barco etc who can be better than Ortiz Heaney Falter.
Not making playoffs with these bats. Why they traded for Horowitz.
Mendoza thinks Pirates pitching development is top 10. He’s becoming bright eyes 2.0 probably deserves to be muted!
Solak and Gorski are all stars!
Nutting spent 4m on Pham. He will play somewhere between what Yoshi and Tellez played. July August. He gets a bonus at 475 at bats or something so I promise you he won’t play long enough to reach that.
Red Sox got a comp a pick for Priester. That can be used to draft another Priester or Keller Jones Barco. Rather have that than Yorke. Plus the got a prospect or 2 as well.
Pitcher pirates traded for Cook has 1.86 era. Hitters batting .182 against him. It’s early but he had good stuff.
Both trades were desperation moves to get MLB ready depth since Cherington failed miserably for 5 years to develop hitters.
Horowitz trade fits the desperation as well. 3 pitchers gone and hope the wrist gets better. Those guys were expendable at least. So was Priester although they should have been the ones to trade him for comp pick. Pitcher for Cool though was a serious prospect with high ceiling.
No sir. There’s no way you call any pitcher having success with this team lucky. The kid pitched well down the stretch, overlooked by the anemic, uninterested team around him. The only luck in his story was being traded to a contender
Ortiz is the same guy he was here, as witnessed last weekend. The difference is he has a team around him now
Heaney pitched for many teams, contenders included. The fact he is here at this time is telling. This is a last stop for most of the FO’s signings. You are espousing a trade that gave away a kid on the way up, essentially replaced by a guy on the way out
Ok
Horwitz is the wild card. You talk about overvaluing, you have seen snippets and call him promising. Let’s hope so
George is the only Pirates fan who has muted me,and he by mistake!
The problem with muting someone is you do not see what they say about you!
I have thick skin and I just don’t take sports that seriously. I honestly don’t know how I muted you but you should know I’m old school
I’ve logged out on my to find I don’t remember my password. I’ve closed email accounts forgetting it’s the link here
I’m just a semi-old dude using large fingers on little keys
Marin is perfectly average. His secret isn’t much of a secret. Other teams do the same thing. Just there are dumber teams. So being average is good because half the teams are worse.
Ferguson was good in Houston. Better than he is with Pittsburgh. You old guys refuse to adapt. Still go with era. Ignore the era and do you want the guy with a 47 percent ground ball rate and 11 strike outs per 9 innings or the guy with 30 percent ground ball rate and 5 strike outs per 9 innings? I want the Houston guy. Ferguson has been getting lucky with soft contact hit right at people and not giving up a hr yet. Bases loaded Ohtani up you want to go with luck or the guy who can get a strike out or ground ball? I expect his k rate to improve drastically. Just my point is he was already good. They didn’t have to do anything. Just the smarter teams have more $ and went after even better pitchers so pirates just had to out bid the dumber teams.
They weren’t smart enough to claim Hill last year though. The Yankees didn’t need to fix Hill. He was already good. They improved him a bit. And Marin is capable as well. Not like Yankees guy but capable. But Hill could have went with any team even stayed with White Sox and would have done better. It was just luck. Maybe his stats wouldn’t get better. You could be unlucky for most a season. The smart teams do what I do. Not as well obviously but try. That’s to ignore what a player has done and only care about what they should do going forward.
Justin Lawrence. I said absolute bargain. JL on DL. A+ Other teams are like you guys. They see a high era. Might even say Cherington dumpster diving again. Who runs baseball teams? People that know baseball or Ivy league nerds? They work hard studying and capable of memorizing things. They can ace a IQ test. Got their fancy degree. Are they intelligent? Few are. Most aren’t. Cherington might be smartest of the bunch. He gets more players I recommend than anyone else. Yet hasn’t fired Shelton. Strange. I have the impressive IQ GPA number fancy degree. None of that helps me evaluate baseball players. I create formulas for a living and as a hobby. Didn’t need my magical fantasy analytics for this one. Lawrence opposing batters have a average of .378 vs him at Colorado last year and a .236 average everywhere not Colorado. Does it take a genius to figure out that anywhere not in the mountains he is much better? Then you look 2021 2022 2023 he had 9 or 10 k per 9. 2024 6 something. Is he hurt? Well I will take 3 years of data vs 1 year. Use his elite sweeper much more and you have a good pitcher.
Mlbtr tech is just awful. I didn’t get banned. I just forgot my password or it stopped working. I had it auto saved. Hit forgot password we sent you email link to reset. I got the link like days later and it was no longer valid. After that they don’t even send it.
I like new name better. Everything is AI anyways. I can use look AI is outperforming the meat bag gms. I’m ready for all star break. The off days I take my victory lap on all the things I nailed in the off season. Off to fantastic start.
Yes. Exactly. I have done this numerous times. I am a bit paranoid about the internet. It’s part of being a tired old dude. So I forget to save passwords. And I start and then kill email accounts frequently.
So it becomes a mess here for log ins
The George Bailey name suits me well at this point in time. Hope I remember the password tomorrow
As for Mendoza, no idea how I muted him. Solid poster here. I have utilized the mute button more now. No need for the blatherings of bright eyes or the supreme Nutting-is-losing-so-much-money moron
I’m going out for a manicure now. Makes hitting the keys easier
I suppose you changed your name from Dream?
Charlie is the one who said his kid wanted out of Pittsburgh a couple summers ago. Of course, he quickly recanted and said his comment was misconstrued
I never cared for Charlie as a player.
I care less for his son
Perhaps both are beautiful human beings.
But the younger Hayes is the biggest bust the Pirates have had in some time.
I think you now have license to become TheMan 4, 5 and 6 at this point
Keller hasn’t exactly lived up to his contract either.
He throws 100 pitches by the 5th inning and
isn’t the same strong starter he was before he signed the long term contract
I resent the implication that my name should be shared with anyone
No, not shared. That you have license to upgrade the name. There’s only one TheMan
GM-putting words in my mouth again.
I have been saying for years that ERA does not apply well to short relievers as one or two bad outings can skew the statistic into an unrepresentative manner.
It also does not reflect the % of base runners saved when entering in an inning.
Does your equation take these into account?
ERA is more naturally reflective of starters and long relievers,although in this day and age it evens reflects less with the five inning starters and the one or two inning relievers.
A true reflective statistic would ignore the worst and best 10% outing results of larger samples to give true students the gist of the relievers’ true results.
And of course you know as having impressive IQ and GPA numbers that the data sample size has the biggest affect on any good use of data.
Cherington hasn’t fired Shelton maybe because Shelton accepts the garbage statistics for batting orders and when to sit players that Cherington probably requires.It ain’t working but both are too stupid to change.Many of these supposed brainiacs lack two things-common sense and the ability and rigouressness to work with people.
It happens all of the time.
Sorry for assuming. Just era is the only stat I really seen to really praise Marin and top 10 pitching development. Heaney Ferguson Lawrence Anderson Quintana were already good before they got to Pittsburgh.
IQ GPA more useless than era. I seen many average intelligence people with impressive numbers.
“It’s April. Most teams are going to rely on the players that are inside the organization…”
Well, that’s because most teams are relying on a complement of players that they added during the offseason, through trades and free agency.
Translation: Bob Nutting didn’t give me enough to add to payroll so this is what we’re rolling out. But he fully expects a competitive team to make a play-off run.
No disrespect to Pirates fans, but enjoy Skenes while he’s here, he’s undoubtedly being traded once he hits his first or second year of arbitration…
thank you for telling us something we already know
Bob Nutting has given Cherington too much. 4m Pham. 4m Yoshi. 10.5m Chapman. Bob gave him so much money he didn’t know what to do with it. 4m Taylor. 3m Tellez. 8m Hill. 5m Hedges. 5m Perez. 8m Perez.
That shows Ben is horrible at scouting players not necessarily how much he spent
That’s not even the most frustrating point if you ask me. We’re relying on players inside the organization, but not the best ones avaiable. There’s no way GMBC can say that having Adam Frazier, Jack Suwinski, Tommy Pham, and Alexander Canario is better than some mix of Nick Yorke, Liover Peguero, Billy Cook, or Matt Gorski. 3 of those players are on the 40-man roster.
Yorke and Cook have never proven themselves and are hitting below 200 at AAA.
Peguero will get a shot but it may be his last one.
Gorski strikes out too much but Canerio has two hits all year.
Bring the last two guys up and give them a chance.
It certainly cannot hurt this woeful hitting team.
But there is a lot more wrong with the Pirates than their lack of hitting.
Fair enough, but right now, Pham is batting .149 with a .441 OPS. Frazier is batting .209 with a .538 OPS. Canario has 2 hits like you said. I am not expecting a guy like Cook or especially Gorski to be world-beaters, but we’re setting the bar so exponentionally low. If Cook or Gorski came up and hit .200 with a .600 OPS, that would still be a huge upgrade over what they currently have with Pham, Frazier, and especially Canario. Cook and Gorski are also far better defenders than either Canario or Pham atp.
“ Gorski strikes out too much”
which current player doesn’t
We know that free agents will not be cut.
I have no problem promoting anyone but they have to hit in AAA.They have to earn the promotion.
You saw what happened to Cheng and I took the under under Alika’s batting average and won.
What do the Piirates have to lose in promoting Peguero and Gorski?Yes,even if Gorski is a “garbage prospect”,as AI has said,he has put his time in and deserves a chance.
He cannot do any worse than the current knuckleheads.
They keep giving Suwinski playing time, and he has shown that he’s not ready for prime time.
Yet he’s still on the major league roster which is mind blowing considering their lack of offensive production.
You don’t need to see Gorski Peguero in MLB to see they can’t hit. All for seeing them anyways though. There’s no one else. When someone get hurts they can get their “opportunity”. IKF goes down or gets traded Peguero will start at SS. He’s the best SS they have above A ball. Capable of hitting the ball hard. He doesn’t but he’s capable of possibly. Williams Cheng Bae have at no point shown they are capable.
Gorski isn’t on 40 man. So need to dfa someone or have 60 day IL. Easy to say just dfa someone but remember they had to trade for Valdez Canario. Other teams at least 1 was interested in them. None of the 29 teams were interested in Gorski. They could be wrong but it’s telling still. No one believes in him. Valdez is hitting ball hard. Suwinski is hitting balk hard just doesn’t hit it often. Jack has 30 hr power. Just in 2023 he shown it. Hitting the ball even harder now. Good defensively. All 3 of them were superior prospects than Gorski. But sure enough injuries give Gorski a look. He’s pretty much Jack 2.0. Jack probably has more power but Gorski has good power, good defender. A poor mans Jack.
I don’t expect anything from these guys you guys are pounding the table for. But maybe someone helps them figure things out. Go work out at Gonzales hitting facility or driveline.
There’s a universe Peguero is a good starting SS. He had the talent. Jacks a good starting outfielder. He has the talent. Other guy’s got bad odds. Cheng Alika Gorski Bae I don’t expect anything other than glove bench player when desperate. Keep trying though. Davis Gonzales were heading to nothing until they took their career in own hands.
As noted upthread, Gorski’s K rate now hovering around 25%, which is well down from his usual 30%-35% rate. But he hasn’t lost his xbh abilities.
I’m pounding the table for anyone who wants to play and can contribute
Jack certainly isn’t, despite how good he is defensively.
He has only driven in one run and has 41 plate appearances.
His 19 strikeouts aren’t exactly helping either.
You’re right about Alika and Bae. Neither belong at the parent club.
Yet, the rest of the lineup are inconsistent and need a coach or manager to straighten them out
The saddest part of this, Shelton isn’t the answer
I am not saying that they will prosper in the ML’s.I doubt Gorski will even though his strikeout rate is down.
And I have always wondered whether the pull them out of a hat lineups that Shelton uses were manufactured on a daily basis by one of Cherington’s nerds with a computer.
But sometimes change for the sake of change is necessary when things do not work.Give Peguero 20 games starting at shortstop to see if he can play there.Gorski can play centerfield at least as good as anyone else that they have.Promoting minor leaguers tells other ones that they have a chance if they perform well.
They can dfa Cheng for Gorski as Cheng makes Bae look like Ted Williams.
Cheng can play defense. Infield defense. That’s something. Not worth throwing away just to see what Gorski can do.
Peguero no doubt SS. Don’t need to see 20 games there. He just can’t hit.
So a 27 year old repeats AAA and you guys are impressed his k rate is down? I expect that. Now if it’s still there after 200 more abs let’s get him on 40 man. Under 20 and they might have a real late bloomer.
I’m not scouting AAA and definitely not Gorski. All about A ball but TJ is looking good. Griffin is where it’s at for me. Best talent they had since Bonds. Huge project. I have no faith in Pirates development but this kid is an incredible hard worker and big into analytics. He might succeed even if Pirates fail.
Not giving up on Gorski. They don’t have anyone else so keep getting him abs. See what happens. I just won’t get worked up about him. When he is hitting 300 with a 400 obp I will join in with you guys.
Mendoza should be talking Andujar. Cheaper and better than Pham. Have to see how my guys are doing.
Pham .149 .441
Winker .205 .697 too expensive to sign so can’t blame Cherington there.
Kepler .233 .673 again too expensive
Conforto .194 .694 way too expensive
Hays .406 .1160 My #4 option now thats some impact. Cost 1m more than Pham so obviously wasn’t a option!!!!!!!
Verdugo .294 .745 My #5 option 2.5m cheaper than Pham
Grichuk .286 .855 My #1 option 1m more than Pham. Near 2m if he hits incentives
Pillar .304 .695 My #3 option minor league deal.
Canha .389 .976 My #1 1b option can also play outfield and 3b. Minor league deal.
Tauchman .400 .900 My #2 option 2m.
Andujar .297 .718 Mendozas man
Literally all Cherington had to do was sign anyone who isn’t Tommy Pham!!!!
I realize Pillar Canha are bench players. I guess but over Pham they are starters for me. But I wanted Grichuk Tauchman Hays to be starters. Just one of them. Then Pillar to platoon , pinch hit, late innings defense. And Canha because he can play 1b and outfield. Both them had to take minor league deals. Nutting being cheap isn’t an excuse.
It’s early but I find it hilarious. All those guys. Just pick one that isn’t Pham lol.
My bad. I forgot about the “margins” Pham “leadership” makes him better than all those other players who actually hit the baseball.
I’m cooking tonight. I didn’t think my dollar store baseball players could make much difference in off season. But Pirates have been so awful. Imagine replacing Pham Suwinski Canario and whoever plays 1b with these guys. At the very least could have been another hot spring start.
Williams could play solid defense too.
In today’s game there are few starters who can just play defense.The Pirates are not good enough to have defensive specialists.They need hitters to achieve mediocrity.
Peguero used to be lackadaisical like Cruz but maybe he has improved.He is the best hitter of the true shortstops that they have.Time to give him a chance again.He was very young two or three years ago.He is doing OK in AAA.
The Pirates need shook up even if only in small doses.
They are starting to play good teams.
It may get ugly three weeks from now.
Mendoza gave up on Andujar as even Shelton was good on him.
Cherington clearly was not.
He preferred the two clowns that they had last year.
And don’t get me wrong on Gorski.You are almost certainly right on him.My point is that they need change and after being Jack fans for several years I think that you and I agree that he is close to a lost cause at this point.He is doing the same stupid things that he started doing last year.
Your buddy Winker-not so good.
He is a typical example of someone who has alternating good and bad years.
I would be careful with Griffin being big into analytics.Some of these guys may have been taught to think and not do and they end up freezing if they do not get a pitch that they can drive.
Hayes was never going to be more than a 12-15 HR a year player.Did they teach him to start uppercutting?Maybe that is what Charlie was implying.
This BS about three possible batting outcomes has severely hurt baseball.Spin rates and speed,both of which ruin arms,have taken precedence over control.
Enhanced data use is a tool-nothing more
The sport of baseball is played by humans,not AI robots.
Winker should be ok. Problem is they over payed for him. He is good to have. Just not at that price.
You were always big on Grichuk and Canha and rightly so.
They may not have promised Grichuk a starters job but what did they have to lose?
Canha would have fit perfectly with Horowitz’ injury.
Tauchmann and Pillar have bounced around and probably for reasons.
Pham was decent last year but may have come to the end of the line.
I do not think that Cherington can think outside of the box well.He did last year with getting Chapman who is going to get HOF votes someday but only because he could not get another starter for decent money.
Not with Shelton managing.
I already predicted a sweep by both the Angels and Dodgers over the next 6 games
Grichuk hardly plays in Arizona. I would have given him starter job. Better than Pham Suwinski. Would have paid him a million more as well. Whatever it takes. No one likes Arizona enough to ride the bench making 1 2 or 3 million less $.
Canha minor league deal. I would have given him the 1 million Frazier special. League minimum is 700k so 1m is absolutely nothing. I felt strongly Canha had 1 more year in him but if he didn’t who cares.
4m for Pham would have bought all 3 of Tauchman or Verdugo and Canha Pillar.
I didn’t cherry pick. I named every outfielder that was affordable and that either I or pirates fans named. Only one of them that isn’t doing OK is the one Cherington signed.
Pham underlying data suggest he will do better but what a terrible start and he won’t do better than a lot of these guys and it’s all eggs 1 basket. If they did what I suggested it’s great if all 3 guys hit but they don’t all have to. Just need 1 of them. Hopefully 2. And what if Reynolds Cruz gets hurt? Awfully nice to have a Canha Tauchman lying around.
Those garbage prospects will never drive in as many runs as Pham Frazier have. Heck probably won’t top Suwinski. Future Canario’s are what they are. Gorski might not even make it that far.
Suwinski has a total of 1 rbi
My dog could do better and he doesn’t have plausible thumbs
Paul-Just because your dog is fast and can bunt does not mean that he will hit over 150.
But that is better than Suwinski.
I just want more than 1 run before the 9th inning. I’m not expecting like 6 or 7 runs, I just want like 3 before the 9th inning. This team would probably be over .500 right now if the offense was even just average-ish, like 95-100 wRC+. For what it’s worth, it’s not completley hopeless in my opinion. They have the second lowest out of zone swing rate in MLB, and the lowest in the NL, they’re top ten in exit velocity at 90 MPH, and have an about average 8.1% barrel rate. They’re contact rate of 75.4% is also about average. Those are all things that you want your team’s offense to be doing: not chasing outside the zone frequently, making contact at a respectable rate, and making solid contact when hitting the ball. And for what it’s worth, they have a team .320 xwOBA, compared to a team .271 wOBA, which is the largest gap in the league by nine points.
Some stuff might fix itself on its own. No way does a team continue to have a near 50 point gap between their wOBA and xwOBA. Getting Spencer Horwitz back, who I heard was starting his rehab at Bradenton, will be a big help. He was probably the second best rookie in MLB last year when it came to hitting behind Jackson Merrill, ranking behind Merrill in wOBA, wRC+, and only behind Merrill and Jackson Chourio in OPS.
But the Pirates still need to be proactive on their part. Get Adam Frazier out of here. He’s no longer the hitter he was when he was first with the Pirates. Bring up Nick Yorke or Liover Peguero since he’s looked pretty good at Triple-A. We already have too many defensive first utility men. You can’t have both Triolo and Frazier, and between the two, I’d rather have Triolo. I’d hope that Frazier is the first guy gone when either Horwitz or Nicky G are back, whoever comes back first.
Time to cut bait with Alexander Canario. He’s hitting the ball hard, but has way too high of a whiff rate. Bring up Billy Cook or Matt Gorski. Even if neither hit that much, you at least are still getting some power potential, and both are better defenders than Canario. Send Jack Suwinski to Triple-A. I’m fully convinced that Andy Haines has done some long-lasting damage to him. You’ve now made him chaneg his approach twice in less than a year. It’s going to take a long while now for him to get back to what he was used to pre-2024.
By June, I’m hoping this is what the team looks like:
C: Joey Bart/Endy Rodriguez
1B: Spencer Horwitz
2B: Nick Gonzales (Nick Yorke if he is still recovering)
3B: Ke’Bryan Hayes
SS: IKF
OF: Tommy Pham, Oneil Cruz, Bryan Reynolds
DH: Andrew McCutchen
Rotation: Skenes, Keller, Chandler, Heaney, Falter
Bullpen: Dennis Santana, Carmen Mlodzinski, Caleb Ferguson, Ryan Borucki, Tim Mayza, Justin lawrence, Hunter Stratton, David Bednar
Bench: Nick Yorke (Liover Peguero if Yorke is at 2B in Gonzales’ absence), Endy Rodriguez, Billy Cook, Enmanuel Valdez
I know, a lot to read, but in my opinion, this is even more frustrating than a season like 2021 or 2022. You now actually have a competent ptiching staff. Like I said before, even a 95-100 wRC+ offense would probably make this team a .500+ team.
TLDR: Pirates will likely have some positive regression, but still need to be proactive.
I’ve realized that I wrote more words here than in the entire article, but there’s a lot to unpack about this line-up, and it feels like the Pirates aren’t even putting out the best they’ve got internally.
No problem, while I don’t agree with everything you wrote, you presented a reasoned argument without throwing out insults. Enjoyed reading it.
You make a rational point, mlb1225 but Triolo while he’s a great defender, he isn’t consistent enough at the plate.
And Endy hasn’t shown that he can hit major league pitching.
Valdez has and I would rather see him as the backup first baseman
The problem is that it is the best but it is not managed properly.
Tommy Pham is this years version of Rowdy Tellez, and like Rowdy, he’ll be here way longer than he should.
If Tommy Pham could give the Pirates a 90 wRC+ and .700 OPS like Tellez produced, he’d be fine. His defense is still decent at least.
So Rowdy is now with my Mariners. He’s given us some big homeruns lately, game winning grand slam on Saturday, and has hit one in three straight games. But overall his hitting is abysmal. With too many strikeouts and double play grounders. Wondering if you would recommend keeping him around for his occasional power displays (and surprising plus defense; at least to my eye) or if he will continue to frustrate with his 0 for 4’s. It’s the Mariners, so any little offense is a plus.
Pham finally got his first EBH yesterday after 22 games.
A meaningless double
I don’t think Spencer Steer should be starting.The original scouting report on him was a Good utilty player. I think he should earn or re-earn a Starting role.
I think his rookie year was a FLUKE as many have had.
You can be a starting utility player imo, and even last year he hit twenty homers and played multiple roles. Hopefully getting back into the field will help him get into a better rhythm hitting
Found Nutting’s burner account! Haha
the Pennsylvania taxpayers paid for the construction of PNC Park
We definitely deserve a winning team, but what we don’t deserve is a nobody know nothing telling us how we should feel
King, you’re wrong, but theman is also wrong. Public funded the stadium in return the Pirates promised to stay till at least 2035. I may be wrong on the date. That was the agreement. So the taxpayers did “buy” a team. There was no promise, on “entitled to” a winning team, just a MLB team.
speaking of lamest.
Every one of your posts on any thread is lame.
When Kevin McClatchey bought controlling interest for the Pirates and said that if a new stadium could be built to replace 3 Rivers Stadium, the Pirates would be competitive in 5 years.
That was in 1997.
We have only had 3 years of competitive baseball in those years
@theman, thanks for at least reading all my comments, though I’ll disregard your emotional response.. Doesn’t matter what his comments were, that was not the agreement. Also note, that Kevin McClatchey no longer has a controlling interest. Your beef lies with him.
is this really a ML team?
McClatchy made those comments 28 years ago. He was wrong. And he no longer owns the team.
Regarding building PNC Park: Nutting is in full compliance with the lease, which expires after the 2030 season – when he will be free to move the team to a good market for baseball, unlike Pittsburgh.
Mr. Nutting, why are you always bringing up that “Pittsburgh isn’t a good market” while posing as a religious author named ‘Richard Jarzynka’? What do you plan on accomplishing here other than looking like a bad bootlicker to yourself?
Pittsburgh awesome market. Give away some cheap Chinese junk and 30k idiots will show up even if the baseball player talent is dog poop. Nice warm summer night light off some fireworks and 30k idiots will look up at sky with their mouths open in amazement.
1.5m will show up for even a 100 loss team. That’s a pretty awesome floor. Get a good team and you will get 2.5m
Speaking of not reading comments, I said that “ when McClatchey originnallu bought the team “I don’t mention that Nutting bought him out because the argument is about promising a competitive team and that is the truth no matter if you agree or not
Richie or tricky ducky…mlb will never allow anyone to move the pirates. They are a team with so much rich history. Except for the last 30 years. PNC park will keep any potential new owner in Pittsburgh. Attendance shows that if you put a winner on the field people show. And with Pittsburgh and alleghney and surrounding areas. The Attendance is adequate with a competitive team.
During their last 3 years of winning between 20113-2016, they set records for attendance at Pittsburgh baseball parks.
Winning does bring out the fans so it’s mind boggling that Nutting won’t spend enough money to put a competitive team on the field
That cheap Chinese junk is evidently fetching $150.
@KingofCards. “Be a fan of a different team…”
I’d rather lose than cheat to win. And being a fair weather fan, as you suggest, just feels like cheating to me.
Scott Kliesen;
You can pick a team in the American League, and follow them on MLB.TV.
A one-year subscription costs less than taking 3 people to one Pirates game – paying for tickets, parking, and refreshments. Buy some souvenirs and it costs less than a one-year subscription. You can follow the team on the Internet to read their local papers and listen to their sports-talk programs on radio for free.
Samuel- One is either a fan or no longer follows the sport.
If you hop from team to team you are just a fan of baseball and owe no allegiance to any team.
Pirate fans have nothing to remember except the good old days.
It has been an extremely frustrating team to be a fan of.
You have no idea.
Mendoza Line 215;
I have an idea…..
I grew up in Cleveland and watched a team that wasn’t even in a pennant race come the August stretch run for over 30 years (2 or 3 generations?).
What I learned from that experience was how to read “rebuilding” teams that weren’t doing anything but thrashing around. Fortunately for me I moved to a city with a winning team (including watching multiple championship years) for most of those 30-plus years.
There is nothing wrong in this day-and-age when it’s so easy to follow multiple teams due to the Internet and streaming games to pick at least one team in the other league and follow them.
P.S. Have been to PNC Park and love it was well as the downtown area (much like Oakland with the low hills). As if a slice of Manhattan was taken and put in the western Pennsylvania hills. The sports fans are great and knowledgeable. Like many sports fans around the country I’d love to see the Pirates start winning again.
@Samuel
I do buy MLBTV. To watch the Pirates.
Ever heard a Tiger can’t change his stripes? Well this Pirate can’t change his patch.
Arggh matey.
Samuel-Many Pirates fans have stayed near the City unlike you had done and have rooted for them since childhood.
They were good when many of us were kids.
I have always appreciated your posts as you were a veteran when I started on here in the summer of 2016 and know that they have always been well meaning.
I liked the Indians when I was young and remember Max Alvis in his heyday.
Perhaps we are gluttons for punishment.
But even those thrashing teams may have kept Gabe Paul as GM but he was smart enough to at least change managers and coaches when it was obvious that the thrashing was ongoing.
And the Indians have at least had three American League championships in the last 32 years.
Most of those who post on Pirate yhreads have been lifelong fans of this team, some dating back more than 60 years.
And here comes an arrogant know nothing to suggest that we don’t have to be fans of Pittsburgh.
Do you proofread your comments before posting them?
I would be ashamed if it was me
Samuel
Are you paying attention?
Scott isn’t interested in rooting for another team.
Jeez people are arrogant on this thread
I don’t think Samuel ever pays attention, he focuses his attention on making Bible-length ramblings more than facts, honestly.
The drivel coming from KingofCards would be laughable if it wasn’t so moronic
Like most fans, I root for the guys with Pittsburgh scrolled across their chests. I don’t care about the individuals in the uniforms, it’s just local pride. Yeah, I know all about my ability to watch other teams or subscribe to myriad services for watching them. Who cares?
I’m old school. I root for Pittsburgh teams or I’m just an observer if it’s other games. No one’s holding a gun to my head. “Find another team”. Gee thanks, genius
Skeptical is partially right but misses the point completely. McClatchy literally begged lawmakers for a new stadium. Neither he nor Nutting ever agreed to field a team in contention each year. There was no such contract. It’s the implication that bothers fans. It’s saying all the right things and doing the opposite. It’s the complete lack of civic responsibility. It’s the Pirates carping to be a foundation in the fabric of the city. It’s outrageous parking, ticket and food prices to enter the PNC Park circus. Not so much baseball, but bobble heads, pierogi races, hot dog launches, cheap tshirt giveaways, fireworks and the nicest ballpark in MLB
Might as well go to Iowa and see the Field of Dreams
It’s the refusal to spend on even the most affordable players in order to squeeze more profit out of the payroll department.
Pathetic franchise
Cards- Some of us stay through the good and the bad times.
Some of us have been fans for many decades.
We cannot change at this point.
If we want to complain about a poorly managed,run,and owned team,that is our prerogative.
You being the troll that you are is your prerogative.
Pittsburgh has never supported the Pirates. It is, and always has been, a bad market for baseball.
Pittsburgh does NOT deserve a team better than the Pirates.
RichardJarzynka;
The Pittsburgh market always supported the Pirates when they put a decent team on the field.
You must be younger than 35 – or maybe even 40 – so you don’t realize that.
In 2015, the Pirates had the second most wins in baseball and went to the postseason for the third straight year. They were 9th of 15 in attendance. The Brewers were 7th and had a record of 68-94.
In the early 1990s, the Pirates won their division for three straight years and could not sell out NL Championship Series games.
Throughout the 1970s, the Pirates were consistently one of the best teams in major league baseball, and attendance was always dismal.
Pittsburgh is now, and always has been, a bad market for baseball.
Richard- It has historically been a mediocre to good area for supporting a baseball team.
Pittsburgh has always been a football town,even when the Steelers were bad.
They do support a winning baseball team however.When you make comments like you just did,do you take into account how many people are in the area to support a team?
Do you wonder why the Dodgers and Yankees have the highest stadium fill rates?
Do you take into account the size of the stadium?
You are correct in some of your factual statements,but not in your conclusion of being dismal regarding attendance.
Richard- That is not true.
Every fan deserves a team that is sometimes competitive.
The Pirates have had four winning seasons since 1992.
That is not being competitive.
Hey Richie..you know I always appreciate good posts that make sense…but you are either a paid troll or you’re home is under a rock
King of Cards;
Classless, ridiculous comment.
You ever watch any of their games? They’ve haven’t been able to play anything seen resembling fundamental baseball for decades.
Samuel- One decade.
Second best record in MLB for the period 2013-2015.
That was then — this is now.
When your own fans are chanting “sell the team” in the 2nd inning of your first home game, something is very wrong.
I was just correcting Samuel as for three years they were a very good team.
Other than that,for decades is the proper word use.
you are worth being muted King
People who disagree with your opinions, you have the audacity to call them lame
You get the ridicule you deserve
External solutions are unlikely translates to Nutting has confiscated the checkbook.
If the team is so bad that there is no chance for a playoff spot then Nutting doesn’t feel any pressure to spend money and add to the roster.
Maybe this was their strategy all along and why their off season signings were so dismal. Could this team have been built to not win too many games?
How else can you explain why Cherington and Shelton were brought back for another season?
Myself and many others were hoping for a change . Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result i.e a playoff team sounds like insanity to me.
Nutting’s biggest failing is that he does not know baseball even after all of these years and does not know that Shelton should have been fired by Cherington at least over two years ago.
Cherington is like Shelton in that he does not hold people accountable.
What it tells me is that Nutting does not really care to field a winning team.
Most team owners do.
The good point about being so bad is that 90% of the owners care enough to get involved when they have to and would make some serious changes today.
Nutting is in the 10%.
Mendoza Line 215;
It’s Shelton and Cherington….yet maybe it’s not (this got long)…..
I’ve been in management. When not backed by the owner or the people with the money and power. there’s not much a person in management can do.
I have a problem with Oneil Cruz. A big one. I’m older and read things differently than the people here that think MLB is rotisserie league so the players are walking stats, and that watching highlights tells all. Now….
A number of posters on here that are older Pirates fans have complained about the position players screwing up plays then smiling and moving on like nothing happened. That stuff started with Cruz at SS…..which is the most important pure defensive position on the team (and one of leadership). A quality organization would have pulled that guy off that position the second time he messed up on his responsibilities……after a talking-to the first time. But I read where the GM and manager have had to sit down with that kid numerous times and nothing gets through…..he wanted to play SS and that’s that. If the manager and GM can’t move him off the position…..why? The kid has to be protected somewhere. Uh, think maybe the owner is telling them he’s the big hope and to pull back? Let me put it this way: When an employee is screwing up his job over and over, laughing about it so that the other employees jump in and do the same, then there’s a big organizational problem. You say there’s no one taking responsibility for the attitude of the players on the field. Agree.
Keep in mind that this player that hits the ball real real hard, throws it real real fast, and runs real real fast – was traded by a Dodgers FO headed by an experienced PoBO when said player was a ballyhooed minor leaguer for – a veteran left-handed relief pitcher that was playing out his option. The Dodgers got to the WS that year, and Tony Watson helped. But the Dodgers made no effort to sign him after the season and he moved onto the Giants. Now…..
Does a smart, experienced. successful ML FO go out and trade a can’t-miss star for 24 games of a relief pitcher (not a closer) playing out his option? Think maybe they were already tiring of dealing with a Yasiel Puig that could do some great things on the field but was becoming high-maintenance to a point that his value on the field wasn’t worth the energies of the manager, coaches and others?
–
I wrote the other day, if I couldn’t trade him I’d release him. Package him up with Hayes and that ridiculous contract as we await his next injury, and see if Seattle will send back a decent starting pitcher for the 2 of them. Kiner-Falefa can play 3B just as well. Sign Jorge Mateo as a FA – who will happily come if he can start at SS – for a reasonable salary, and you’ll have a better infield defense as well as speed that plays well in that big yard. Accumulate some line-drive contact hitters such as they did with Horowitz, and with that strong pitching play the strong/smart fundamental baseball that got the Royals to 2 WS’s in the mid-2010’s in their big yard.
Samuel- While I agree with much of what you said,as I often do,I do have some comments.
The Royals team that won the WS,the only small market team to do so since the 1992 Twins,was easily one of the best fundamental teams that I can recall.
There are few teams that can match them,and certainly never the Pirates.
Cruz has actually improved somewhat this year,but management has let him get away with too much.
You are aware that he was moved to CF last year,aren’t you?He is a work in progress there but is trying to get better.It is not an easy transition for any player,especially this far through his career.
Cruz is a talented player.He will never be a fundamentally sound one.He is,however,one of the best position players on a less than mediocre team.
I am not against trading him but they would need to get a good ML player in return.Perhaps a new start and some strong guidance would help him more than he realizes.
And it is ownership,directing,and management.All three are failing.
This is not particularly complicated.
I found it interesting to see Vogelbach with his arm around Cruz in the dugout after a lackluster at bat on Sunday. And I wonder if anyone is getting through to him
He shows flashes but at times seems much more like a diva. His decision to round second and take third on a single to Kwan in left field showed why there is so much promise. The kid flew and made a nice slide
Way too much ability to trade when really, he’s your only legitimate HR threat in the lineup
I said previously a Showalter type would have been a benefit here. In Cruz’s case, a Joe Espada would have been a good mentor, as well
But Shelton has allowed lack of hustle, lack of focus. And that all becomes contagious on a young team
In hindsight if the pirates would have just brought in a left handed hitting outfielder ( a decent one ) and Horowitz, I think they would have been ok. Ironic though how the young first base type Cleveland elected to hold on to had the game winning RBI in 2 games this series
difference, Cleveland wants to win, the Bucs don’t
The Pirates failure to surround Skenes and Keller (and Jones, at the time) with a couple affordable bats is mind numbing. I can only surmise that they believed that somehow, Suwinski would find his swing or that Hayes, Bart and Endy were suddenly going to blossom
What else could it be, really?
I get what you’re saying, Samuel about Cruz
He’s a head case, he rarely hustles out of the batter’s box, allows potential doubles to become singles and the problem with his approach has more to do with the lack of discipline by Shelton
In fact, lack of hustle is a big problem with the entire team, minus maybe Reynolds and Cutch
Discipline has been a constant problem under Shelton during his entire tenure as manager
Paul- Sorry to use your post to reply to him,but George still has me inadvertently muted
I have two names for you George.Buck Showalter is one.Old line,but expects people to perform to the best that they can.
But how anyone with any brains would not have seen hiring Terry Francona as a real plus last offseason is beyond me.
One can grouse about all the bad players that the Pirates have.
But these are opportunities that were handed to the owner and GM on a silver platter.
And one wonders why I call them stupid.
Stupid is as stupid does.
I think Buck did a great job with young players with the Mets and O’s. Francona has long had a similar track record. Snitger sitting Acuna in Atlanta for Cruz-esque lack of hustle was refreshing
There are still these types of managers around
Hiring and staying with Shelton is just the safe play for Pirates front office types. And when they finally tire of him, I suspect they’ll go with Don Kelly, his right hand man
I’d wonder if that would mean any discernible change here
Probably not.
Kelly, like Shelton is too close to the players in a friendship scenario.
We need new blood, from President of Baseball Operations down to the strengthening coaches
How about my idea. Grandpal? He knows the catchers. Knows the pitchers. I always like former catchers as managers as they know both infield defense setups strategies as well as pitching strategies and game prep. Seemed to have some fire in him. No experience so will be cheap. Heck he can be player manager to save Nutting even more $. Speaks Spanish. A lot of things I like there.
Grandpa signed with someone about a week ago.
Cherington would have had to have thought outside the box.
He was bad at throwing out runners but perhaps he had a renaissance the second half of the year with hitting.
They should have thought twice about losing Delay as he was fine for a week or two.Just couldn’t hit.
Fitted in with the rest of them.
Talking next year. Don’t think Grandpal will be playing in 2026. Who knows. Manager is least of my concerns. Get good players I don’t care who is managing.
Troll.
Steve-They could afford to trade Horowitz because they were trading from strength.
The Pirates have some strength in pitching but did not use it.
Priester, a pitcher traded last year for Nick Yorke has pitched 3 consecutive quality starts for the Brewers after he was recently acquired from Boston
Nick Yorke is struggling at Indy and Priester is on the Brewers major league roster
Another fine trade by the worst GM in baseball
Priester data looks same as it did for Pirates. Looks more like luck so far but keep an eye on him.
Red Sox got a great return for him. Pirates got Yorke. It was alright until I seen Sox return. They killed it.
Well, it’s only 280-300 days until pitchers and catchers report for the 2026 spring training
Just my way of “staying positive”
“Entitled?” To what, exactly?
What in your estimation do these “little entitled brats” want?
Please share
You must be kidding. Seriously. Your cluelessness about Pirates fans is laughable
Storied franchise with a fantastic history until the late 1990s. The way this team is lead is a shame and a slight to the legacies of Clemente, Stargell, Wagner and Kiner. Support the team or sell it!!
If you look at pre-arb non-extended position players across MLB (so guys like Jackson Merrill are excluded), do the Pirates have one guy who would make a 13-man lineup+bench? The Cubs are trying to win now, and they may still have three pieces better than the corresponding Pirate pre-arb guys with Busch, Amaya, and Crow-Armstrong.
How can an organization which almost always has a top 10 draft pick be so bad at college and international position player evaluation and development?
Cruz would make every single teams roster
I believe that. As would Reynolds and Hayes, albeit for different reasons
In the case of Cruz, I have to believe that playing for a Snitger in Atlanta or even Francona in Cleveland would have us seeing a much different player
Oh man… that’s a terrible take. I’m gonna move to go to a baseball game because I wanna root for a baseball team that doesn’t suck eggs. Imagine going into work and asking management for a transfer because the pirates have a owner that doesn’t care
“We’re going to get healthier.” Yes, that’s always what happens to teams. They get healthier as the season goes on. Idiot.
fun Pirate fact
As a team, they lead the majors in called third strikes
64 of them
They aren’t taught to protect the plate and foul off pitches or try and hit the ball the other way
Basic baseball fundamentals are not taught by this manager or coaching staff
The root of the problem again points to player development. So much of what one sees here should have been addressed as the players came through the system. I’d wonder if the Brewers or Orioles for example spend time at the major league level having to address ideas like what you’ve stated. Doubtful.
Joel does nit watch baseball that’s already been established. Joel likes to follow sports news and stats. He also likes to deny reality and hurl baseless accusations. All the while he tosses around words like “lame” and “clown ” which ironically are more fitting of describing himself.opposed to anyone else.
He also seems to be rather testy upon his recent return. ID imagine his time in jail wasn’t all that pleasant. He does not exactly exude likeable qualities so I’m sure he was anything bit popular in County.
Is King, the former “ slider with cheese “ by chance?
Joel-BITA-Blackpink
Hard to get quality MLB players when Bob won’t sign multi year deals.
The last multi year FA the Bucs signed? John Jaso around 10 yrs ago.
Why would a good player want to come to Pitt when he can get a three year deal in 25 other cities?
Jbigz said the same thing above. But isn’t part of the problem in who they are targeting? Do we have any evidence at all that they’ve approached affordable free agents? Do we ever hear one of these types of players being targeted here on MLBTR? No. Instead we see writers saying what we all think, that various players in this category of affordability would provide help here
Instead, you get guys like Rowdy Tellez, Rich Hill or Tommy Pham—guys likely at the end of their careers—signing here for a year. It’s like the last stop before riding off into the sunset, cheap
To your point, it’s more in line with what the GM is looking to do. KC proved you can add valuable pieces around your core of young talent.
That’s one example. The Pirates were in a similar situation this past winter and decided to again look into the bargain basement. And as such, why would they offer any of these types more than a one year contract?
I give Cherington credit for one thing
He made dumpster diving an art
Why sign multiple years? They usually don’t work out and are expensive.
All Cherington had to do was use the power of AI.
Hays .406 .1160 My #4 option now thats some impact. Cost 1m more than Pham so obviously wasn’t a option!!!!!!!
Verdugo .294 .745 My #5 option 2.5m cheaper than Pham
Grichuk .286 .855 My #1 option 1m more than Pham. Near 2m if he hits incentives
Pillar .304 .695 My #3 option minor league deal.
Canha .389 .976 My #1 1b option can also play outfield and 3b. Minor league deal.
Tauchman .400 .900 My #2 option 2m.
Hopefully Cherington is fired but if not he can come back here next year and I will give him more names.
Time for shake up with roster and coaching! Sick of same stuff. You neeed to trade something to get something! Need a good shocker, like Tony Pena and Tudor to Cards for Spanky L. Van Slyke and Mike Dunne!! Do something my my!!
Trading for something better is necessary but so is dumping a manager who lacks discipline, teaching basic fundamentals and refuses to take risks
They don’t hit and run, don’t know how to bunt, base running blunders are too frequent, they don’t protect their plate, strike out far more than any other team, and need a leader who writes one lineup and sticks with it during the course of the season
Shelton uses analytics to write his lineups. We don’t have the talent for that
And finally these players need a leader, not a dugout buddy
I agree with the idea that Shelton does a lot of odd things, not the least of which is assembling lineups
I believe having a firm hand would have been the way to go with young kids
But I honestly don’t know what even the best manager does with this assortment of players.
I just don’t see a great deal of talent that is suddenly going to blossom under a new manager.
Yeah, I think the team needs a change
I just don’t know if it results in many more wins
Ben Cherington, word-salad extraordinaire. What a clown.
The Bucs are 7-7 with Cutch in the lineup and 1-8 when he’s not
Why then does Shelton refuse to play him every game?
Because he needs a day off?
Because Jack should get abs?
Because there’s a better DH?
Or because Shelton is a moron?
Playing. .500 ball would be a step up from the past few years. It might even make them competitive
Instead we’re 7 games under .500 and unlikely to become competitive
There’s always been a weird conga line of players that run through Uncle Sheltie’s mind. I’m unsure of how much one needs to see Pham in the outfield at this point. Or Suwinski. Or Frazier
Cutch rides the pine too often
Canario hits his first HR as a Pirate on one Sunday and then doesn’t start again until the following Sunday
You see similar oddities at infield positions
Just not sure what the thinking is
When Cutch is expressing frustration about his playing time in the press, something is amiss. The guy has been the consummate professional here
Oneil Cruz is quietly posting a 54% hard-hit rate in 2025.
Breaking news Cruz hits are often hard.
@AI GM
I said quietly. I can hardly hear his hard hits.
You’ve been taking notes from Greg Brown, it appears. Cruz can go 0-for-the-weekend but Brown will crow about exit velocities. Great
It’s like watching a 0-0 game in hockey and the announcers telling us what great shifts guys had
@George Bailey
I’m just sugaring up one of the few offensive players on the team.
Just joking, Old York😉
When he doesn’t strike out he gets his $ worth.
Wow!!!! Statcast says hardest hit by any player in baseball this year!!! He hit into the inning killing double play bit 115.78 mph. Wow!!!!
GM-sorry for the placement as it refers to a previous post.
The Pirates would not have signed these guys if others realized their potential.They also had not necessarily have shown it.Marin seems to do a good job of getting it out of them after Cherington keenly finds them.
Absolutely nothing wrong with IQ and GPA.They are stats,and quite often representative,just like most of the ones that you use in the expanded evaluation of players.
Posters who poo poo the use of statistics do not understand them and how beneficial they can be in predicting performance based on past performance.
But they do understand that they are not the entire picture.
Average IQ limits people in certain ways.
But if they use all of the other attributes that people can have it often does not contribute to a lessening of their lives.
Everyone is born with certain attributes.
It is how they use them that makes the difference.
That’s a pretty decent rendering
In my own personal case, I don’t “poo poo”
statistical data/analytics. On the contrary, I found data quite helpful in running my teams or working with pitchers. But you’ve nailed it here. They augment what I or any baseball man or woman sees. They reinforce theories or dispel ideas
What’s bothersome to me is the opposite angle, when analytics people wish to tell me that what my eyes see isn’t real. I realize the solution to this is to always do deep dives that entail a great deal of time and review dealing with everything from situations to time of day to myriad other things.
I understand how the majors have people for just those sorts of studies but even then, the data to me at least is largely ancillary and anecdotal to what a baseball man or woman already knows
GM’s continual harangue about Ortiz in this regard is noteworthy as an example. The rationale that he was disposable ( as others here have claimed, as well) just continues to sound like nonsense
Thanks
Ortiz has been replaced and then some and then some.
Heaney 2.76 fip last year 4.04
Ortiz 4.25 last year 4.59 this year
Heaney k 9 7.8 2.1 8.9 2.3
Ortiz 7.1 2.8 9.7 3.8 So far he has better stuff than he did in Pittsburgh. Keeps it up I would want him over Heaney but Pittsburgh wasn’t going to improve him. If they could they wouldn’t have traded him for a platoon 1b with trashed wrist.
Nothing against Ortiz. If they signed Goldy to play 1b and kept Ortiz I would have been fine. I wasn’t demanding they get rid of Ortiz. But they did but replaced him with Heaney who is just as good. And again if Ortiz stuff stays what it has been he will be better than Heaney by years end. I only care about Pirates Ortiz. Trade Keller to Cleveland I will bet on his stuff improving too. Heck even Skenes maybe.
Only impressive Ortiz stat last year was era and walks. Walks real. Era fake. His era should have been 4.30 something. And that’s fine. Just think Heaney will be there as well. Like Heaney now has 2.12 or something era. Surprise it’s fake. Heaney isn’t winning the cy young!!!!!! It should be 3 something.
I liked Orriz. It’s not that he is disposable but he’s replaceable. If they just replaced him with Mlod or Harrington I wouldn’t be pleased. But Heaney is a fine replacement.
Heaney doesn’t impress me. Never has. If anyone is disposable, it’s him. We’ve gotten a sample size so far but I’m betting that once the book about him is out, you won’t be so effusive.
But let’s say it again because it’s an important point: all this franchise had to do was sign a couple of affordable bats to surround their starting pitchers
They refused
Let’s reiterate that this was the third most profitable franchise in MLB last season
So where did the money go?
They weren’t 3rd most profitable. I know you believe your papers but common sense. How does a team with bottom 5 or 10 attendance and TV deal make the 3rd most $ It’s not possible unless unless other teams are spending 500 600 million. They aren’t. You think the Dodgers vs Pirates payroll difference is something take look at their TV deals. Go to pnc and buy a ticket then go to NY BOS CHI LA etc and buy a ticket. Where’s the Pirates money coming from? Yeah other teams spend more. 100 even 200 million more. But they have 1 to million more people buying tickets food beer that cost much much more than it does in Pittsburgh. There TV deals are 100s of millions more than Pittsburgh. Hate to get on you but use some freaking common sense.
And not saying to believe the report that says they lost $ either.
People believe what they want to. But I had to try. It’s demographics mathematics. It’s impossible for Pirates to be in top 15 most profitable unless other teams are spending 400 500 million more and Nutting is still holding line under 100.
I think that Nutting is making a decent return on the present value of his investment,and his investment has appreciated at a high rate over his initial purchase He has done well for a small market team investor,and if he is losing money at all it is because he has a very good accountant.
There may be some teams that occasionally lose money but I doubt that the Pirates are one of them.
He will not spend any more unless his management team produces winning teams from internally developed players.
And that isn’t happening.
I read the reports for entertainment sometimes. It’s all revenue and player payroll. Player payroll is a large chunk but not the only expense a team has.
Things I never seen mentioned is the pirates as a small market team and a lower spend millions more than other teams in international signings and the draft. And how many millions do the pirates get in playoff $ each year? 0 because they never make playoffs. Even 10 years ago 1 wild card game isn’t going to cut it.
Also Wrigley ville. The battery. These other teams have parking lots garages restaurants bars etc. And since they aren’t considered part of the teams revenue they aren’t out. Teams are making bank and Nutting gets none of it. They also own shares of 25 30 50 75 or even all of their tv station. Not baseball team revenue but it’s revenue for owner of baseball team that owns tv network.
You can say well Nutting should do that. Think he is try. Still. You want to own a parking garage restaurant in Pittsburgh that gets 1.5 1.7 million people or one in NY LA that gets 3 to 4 million people. Atlanta Chi Boston Philly get what 2.7 3 not NY LA level but still impressive.
Revenue isn’t close. That why the same people that say Pirates make 3rd most $ have the Pirates as 20 something most valuable franchise. So you can buy the Pirates for billions less but make more money than all but 2 teams who are more valuable? Something ain’t adding up there.
Everyone talks revenue sharing. The same check the Pirates get LA NY gets as well. They just contribute more to the pot.
If you were giving Bob Nutting $ and he was making more than you would you keep giving him $ ?
I wish the only problem was Nutting pocketing all this $. It’s a nice fantasy. But then I see no other small market has ever had a payroll over 130 140 million or so and only 1 small market has won a world series since players started costing real $.
Falter hasn’t exactly pitched lights out either
He only lasted 4 innings last night.
You continue to discount revenue streams versus expenditures
Between MLB’s ultra generous annual stipend, to national and local TV money, to merchandise, ticket and ancillary revenues, I mean, you must be joking
The Pirates have a ridiculously low payroll and likely use one of those revenue streams —ticket sales—on payroll alone as stated repeatedly in investigative reporting.
The Pirates have no long term mortgage on taxpayer funded/politician supported PNC Park
So again, with deep revenue and minimal expense, your thinking here is off the mark
As for “Nutting pocketing all this $,” I guess we have different connotations of “all this”
I don’t begrudge owners getting their pounds of flesh. I don’t expect big market payrolls or the signings of top tier players. I don’t expect appearances in league championship series or World Series appearances
Why is it always the extremes with Nutting apologists?
And I don’t think most fans expect any of those things
But as I have said to assorted morons here for some time, the grass IS greener in similar markets. Teams in those markets CAN and DO compete. Building a solid farm system HAS transpired and augmenting such rosters with AFFORDABLE veterans HAS happened
Those teams may not play in the World Series but they provide their fan bases with hustling players and teams that COMPETE, even if they’re around .500
Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Why do you list extremes as to what Pirates fans—or “yinzers,” as one moron here calls us—are seeking?
This owner is the worst in professional sports. He’s the Mr Potter here in Bedford Falls. A penny pinching carpetbagger. Nothing more
yet he had the money to build around the park and r rent out spaces for restaurants and bars
Intelligence is nice. IQ score not so much. Just most the tests are a weak way to test intelligence. GPA a total waste. Is the person stupid or just enjoys sex alcohol drugs or something? Could just be lazy.
Small market team needs a creative thinker. Cherington is either a critical thinker or smart enough to listen to someone who is. Pirates dumpster dive for too many players that I love to be a coincidence. Critical thinking needs to be better though because they didn’t get Tim Hill last year for free and they signed Pham instead of the 10 or whatever guys who were clearly better options.
Creative though. They need an inventor. They need to be doing things others aren’t. Vs other teams are doing this we should too.
Like I say. If you are going to have a bottom 3 payroll you need a top 3 gm.
Imagine Cherington with a 300 million payroll and he can also find you a Bart Lawrence Santana for free. He could win championships. Doesn’t need to develop Davis Bubba Endy. He can trade them for mvp Cy Youngs and extend them deffer $.
Really just need a Gm to do 1 thing. Hire people who can develop players. It takes time. Why I gave Cherington 5 years. If he would have fired Shelton I’d give him 6.
My thinking get a former player. They have connections. Hey your my friend. There’s room to rise through the ranks. Come work for me.
Spring training I want tons of former players there. Give them some supplemental income. Have them coach mentor players. Do few innings commentary in booth or entire game. It’s Spring training who cares. Too many cooks in kitchen? I don’t believe in that. What’s the worst they can do mess up Davis Suwinski etc name all the failed prospects you want. If anything 1 person might see something or get through. Players can choose who they interact with. Pirate’s used to do this. Not so much lately with Cherington. I want to do that and on steroids. Whoever the players like or was effective will be back next year or can find a permanent role for them. Strom Vogey that’s a start. Find them their assistant.
Like steelers have one of or the smallest coaching staffs. I want the biggest coaching staff. When you find the hitting or pitching whisperer then you can downsize. I say keep throwing stuff against wall and see what sticks.
Andy Haines just got fired. F him. Get 5 assistant hitting coaches for him. He’ll accept because he doesn’t have a choice. Same with new guy.
Agree with your thoughts here. One problem: innovators generally are free thinkers. I can’t imagine one wanting to work under these auspices. It would have to be someone completely wet behind the ears but who has genius ability. Of course, he’d bolt from this franchise once he built a reputation
You have said good scouts, development people don’t grow on trees. And they want paid. I suspect Cherington would tell you that his creativity is stifled here and it wasn’t what he expected. Again, I’m not defending the guy but rather, simply believe he’s made to tow a tight financial line
The financial hall of famer is no dummy when it comes to the board room. Everything we see here is part of his overall financial prospectus.
And it all comes down to maximizing profits
Well you wont agree with my no Ortiz no problem. Lol. That’s your boy.
Yeah young gm. Like be our gm now or wait 2 3 5 years for another team to call. Your an assistant now how would you like to be at the top?
You can’t out bid teams that make double triple money that you do. Anyone important that they want to keep they will. But you can promote them to positions they are blocked. And unless they are really special you can get them.
It’s not even that. I think he was a valuable piece here while guys like Chandler mature
I just don’t think you take from a strength and make it weaker. And for peanuts
He should pitch to low 4 era. Heaney should pitch to a low 4 era. Heaney on pace for low 3 era but I wouldn’t bet on it holding up. We’ll see. Maybe Heaney falls apart and is bad. I just thought he was a good odds replacement for this year.
With our “top 10” pitching development it doesn’t matter. So many guys in the pipeline!!!!
Although if Marin is so amazing why does Ortiz Priester Musgrove Holmes look better elsewhere?
Marin did wonders with Oviedo first and foremost. Then he got hurt
Not so sure what he’s succeeded at past him
Falter, I guess
I think the advancement of the young system pitchers other than Skenes is partly due to him.
He has seen something to change in the waiver wire pickups and who know that he did not have influence with Cherington in picking them.
Quintana picked up his game,and so did Anderson.
Searage was not so good with youngsters,but he was good with retreads.
Holmes was awful before Oscar,and for a half year only under him.The Yankees pitching coach is very good and found the key,or Holmes just liked winning more than losing.
Priester has had three reasonably good starts.
Musgrove was the headliner for Cole and as such had been a fairly good pitcher for the Pirates.
Ortiz is a solid number five who can pitch as a four and may very well be that with Cleveland.
No one said that Oscar is amazing just that he is good+.
He’s average. Gets the job done. I don’t want to fire him. Average is good. He’s better than 10 15 20 out of 30 other guys. He can’t be too great or another team would have him $$$$$ right? Anderson Quintana did well with the giants. Giants used same strategy as Pirates.
These fixes are sometimes fairly simple. Glasnow had fantastic stuff with Pittsburgh. Walked too many. Tampa said focus less on command hitting exact spots. Your stuff is so good they won’t hit it even if you miss. Holmes had a fantastic sinker. Yankees tell him throw your sinker more. Don’t walk guys. If they hit your sinker it’s likely a ground ball.
And your buddy Ortiz
He improved while with the Pirates.
Unlike the position players who Dream,ur,AI GM has pointed out had to learn on their own,the pitchers have improved under system direction.Marin has to have something to do with that.
I can agree with that
I have no problems with Marin and have to think pitching for this team means walking a tightrope every time out. You might not have to be perfect but you can’t afford mistakes
Shout out to Paul. He told me earlier today that the Pirates would have around 20 hits tonight. Heck of a call my optimistic friend.
The Bucs are now 9-8 when Cutch plays and 1-7 when he doesn’t
For those who think he should retire, he hit a 3 run homer in last night’s game and didn’t strikeout but also drew another walk and singled
Shelton needs to keep playing him
Paul- That would make too much sense.
Also,he does not know how to talk to the computer that is spitting out these lineups.
I spoke to my sources and they told me that there was a serious atmosphere disturbance in Anaheim last night which caused batted baseballs to jump like they were playing in Denver.
Don’t get too accustomed to all of these hits.
if that was truly the case, explain the Angels 5 hits