Links for Tuesday…
- I'm excited to be joining an online league in Fanball's National Fantasy Baseball Championship; take a look at all the events they have planned. My NFBC league drafts on March 28th.
- David Weathers hasn't ruled out pitching in 2010, according to Gregg Dewalt of The Times Daily. Weathers would consider pitching for a contender, but said, "If no one calls in June or July, it's been a good ride."
- Tom Krasovic examines Kevin Towers' strengths and weaknesses as a GM, and says he could see Towers with the Cubs down the line. Click here to download Brendan Bianowicz's Excel spreadsheet chronicling Towers' moves.
- Joel Sherman of the New York Post says the Yankees made a series of attempts to acquire Twins center fielder Denard Span in July of last year.
- Rich Harden scoffs at negative reports about his early Spring Training velocity, reports Jeff Wilson of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. He apparently looked better Monday.
Gotta love Sherman and his timely stories. Does that guy know it’s March 2010?
If the Cubs had to replace the old-school, scouting-based Hendry with any old-school, scouting-based executive, Towers might be the guy.
He made for a pretty damn good GM with the Pads, I’d love to see what he could do with Chicago’s payroll. In other words, I’d love to see him not spend over $200M on Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Zambrano and Milton Bradley.
Explain to me why the Twins would trade Denard Span for Phil Hughes?
I was thinking the same thing. Hughes in 2007 had a much higher value than Hughes in 2010.
They wouldn’t seeing as how they have no one else to play center field.
Maybe not now, but when they still had Gomez it wouldn’t have been an unfair trade.
It was more realistic when they still had Gomez, but it would still be far from “fair”. Span is a proven asset as a premiere lead-off man – top notch in the AL – and his stock was (and still is) on the rise. Hughes, on the other hand, has gone from promising prospect to a guy who is meandering in the netherworld between bullpen and back-end rotation.
Hughes has gone from centerpiece of any potential deal to a mere sweetener.
Potentional #1 to Carlos Silva-equivalent after a year of dominating out of the bullpen? Of course! How did I not see that sooner?!
He’s obviously got way more upside than Silva. But he doesn’t command the lofty status he did a few years ago when he was seen as ace-potential.
I don’t think he was putting Hughes as low as Silva, but he has lost significant value since 2007. In 2007, Hughes was still a relatively unknown because of not much ML service or none if you’re talking about before the season, but still a highly touted guy. From what I remember, he was dominating in the minors as a starter. That’s why he was thought highly of. He was good. He did great in the bullpen last year, but he hasn’t been a good starter, at least so far. His great SP numbers in the minors haven’t translated over, not even a little bit. They could eventually, but maybe he doesn’t have what it takes. MLB is a different animal. Some dominate in the minors and can’t do as well in the majors. Because Span is mentioned, he’s actually the opposite. People thought highly of him when he was drafted, not too highly (Torii heir at minimum), but highly. He did nothing in the minors to show he was valuable and now he’s one of the best leadoff hitters in the game. Some things translate the opposite way, so far for Hughes, he’s a good reliever but that’s it. Obviously that’s not nothing, or Silva-like, but it’s not the dominating SP that the Yankees thought.
I didn’t think Hughes in a Santana deal was good enough in 2008. I, in fact, didn’t like anything that the Yankees were supposedly offering. This was, at the time, the greatest pitcher in the game, in my opinion. I really didn’t like what any teams were offering, but I would have taken one of the Sox rumored deals over the Yanks and Mets in a heartbeat. The only other piece I remember is Melky Cabrera and I definitely did not want him at all ever. If I had to absolutely choose between the Yanks and Mets I’d choose the Yanks, but that’s not saying much. It’s easy to choose the other offers over the Mets’ one, even if I didn’t know the results. I didn’t like the deal and I wouldn’t have liked the Yankee deal either, but I think the Yankee deal was better because of Hughes, even though I didn’t want him.
At this point, Twinsvet is right. Hughes is no longer a touted prospect. He is a good reliever, maybe eventually a great reliever with the possibility of getting his SP ability back. I don’t know a team that would center a huge trade around a “good reliever” unless the trade was a more minor one.
I’m glad they didn’t trade Span at any point. I was certainly wrong about him. I’ve always thought Hughes was overrated. He was pretty good last year, but I still would never do that deal.
Pretty easy for the Twins to say no to that one! Hughes hasn’t shown that he can close (or be a consistant starter) and the Twins have plenty of set-up guys with that same profile. Sherman speculated that this trade made sense in light of the Nathan injury but there is no chance for a Spann to Yankees deal – the Yankees do not have any major league or major league ready players that the Twins need so badly they would trade their young, valuable CF for.
More importantly, if they were actually going to entertain the notion of moving Span, they could get much more than Hughes; and have bigger needs than a back-end rotation or above-average-bullpen-arm-to-try-out-at-closer.
Here’s what annoys me about Sherman’s article, and goes to some deeper frustrations with Yankee fans/commentators in general: WE’RE NOT YOUR FREAKIN’ FARM SYSTEM.
You constantly look at us in terms of “oh, I guess that guys pretty good, let’s go get him”. Sure, we’ll give you a Knoblauch now and then, but you have completely unrealistic expectations. You think we’re going to give you valuable pieces just because you’re willing to give up more than a bucket of balls? STOP PENCILING OUR ROSTER INTO YOUR LINEUP.
The same goes for all the Joe Mauer 2011 speculation.
And this goes for Boston fans as well, the 2nd most egregious offenders of treating the rest of the league as your personal farm system.
You mean you’re not going to give us Mauer and Span for Hughes and Joba? How silly of me to think you would. Almost as silly as thinking that all, or even most, Yankee/Sox fans think like that.
Obviously I’m generalizing. Not *all* Yank/Sox fans are like that. But their fans/writers are FAR more likely to do it than any others.
I just couldn’t imagine a Minnesota beat writer being so presumptuous as to talk about going out and getting Ellsbury for Perkins, or what the Twins lineup will look like with Jeter in it come 2011. Yet I’ve seen articles to that effect by “reputable” Yank/Sox reports just in the past 3 days.
Newsflash:
It makes perfect sense.
The Twins, at least in the past, haven’t demonstrated they can keep their star players once they become expensive. The Yankees have demonstrated they are willing to pay big money to players.
You act like there isn’t a prerequisite for this sort of thing. the Yankees have twice your payroll and Carl Pohlad was a penny pincher….What is so confusing? You have frustration? Get mad at your ownership.
Los Angeles (both), Chicago (both), the Mets… these organizations also have substantial payrolls, but I don’t see nearly the kind of presumptuous attitudes coming out of those markets.
Besides, you’re argument only works for the Mauers – it doesn’t explain the arrogance about the Spans.
How does it only work for Mauers?
The Yankees were in on Santana and Hunter too since they needed an ace and at the time, a centerfielder with Damon moving to left….Since this article was last year they needed a centerfielder again, the Yankees had a need, the Twins had a player and they have a history of not retaining them (obviously that’s now changing). The Angels have a full outfield, as do the Dodgers, as do the Red Sox.
LA and NY press are not even in the same hemisphere regardless of payroll comparisons….They simply don’t care as much and wouldn’t dig that up to begin with. The Cubs are trying to shed payroll, so why would they have an article about purchasing any rising star from any team, nevertheless the Twins? And the White Sox are in the Twins’ division, so why would they have a dramatic trade like that?
Really, your only comparison is the Mets, and Omar Minaya wouldn’t be intelligent enough to spend on a quality player like Span and probably has little he’s willing to give up….Plus with the whole Madoff thing, as recently as the Bay contract, nobody knew the Mets situation in terms of buying or selling.
I believe the difference would be that Santana and Mauer had one year left and Hunter was a free agent. Span was under team control before the extention for five years. It is reasonable to see the Twins trading a very expensive star who is almost at free agency. It is not reasonable to see them trading a star who is makings the major league minimum for the next two and still fairly cheap for the next 3. So yes i believe it is fairly unrealistic for the Yankees to put together a package for Span when they are a playoff caliber team with no possible center fielder to replace him. Especially for a player with barely over 1 year of major league service time. In 4 years this may become a legitimate discussion, as of now however the trade is quite frankly ludicrous.
Your mistake is assuming they can’t retain a guy like Span, or have a history of it. The guy isn’t anywhere near approaching free agency; unlike Santana, Hunter, etc.
OK, so then if we’re going based on Twins players nowhere near their free agency years, what players from the past are bending you out of shape? What articles have been written about the Yankees wanting Twins players who barely have a MLB track record?
I’ve been following the Yankees for upwards of 15 years now and I’m drawing a blank.
That’s fair – but as someone mentioned, Boston is pretty quick to pencil Gonzo into their lineup, the guy is two years away from free agency. And they started the chatter on the pages of the Globe and NESN pregame shows as early as last June.
I’m sure others can think of further players like Span – far from free agency and highly talented – who the Yankees started assuming they could just go out and get because, so the belief seems, everyone wants to play for the Yankees, the Yankees deserve everyone, and no other teams are trying to win championships.
I agree and no offense to Span, but I don’t think he’ll ever be thought of on the level of Santana, Mauer, Hunter and the other stars that have come through here. Which, I think, is what you were alluding to in the first sentence there. I don’t think he’ll ever reach the point where “he’ll cost too much” even if we didn’t get a new stadium.
I think without the new ballpark, we probably could have kept Span. Before you felt like for sure Mauer/Morneau/Kubel/Hunter/Santana and those guys were automatic goners without a new ballpark and some of them might be/were anyway.
I know Span is up for a 9 million option in 2015 (2015 right?), but I don’t see him as getting much more than 10ish a year throughout his career, especially if salaries don’t go back up. Maybe I’d be underpaying him, but I just don’t see him as a +$13 million dollar man. Right now that 9 million looks like a bit much, but if Span continues at this pace I think we likely saved about 15 million in arbitration.
And while we’re mentioning Santana and Hunter. I don’t believe we didn’t have the money to pay them. I thought 3/45 for Hunter as a 32/33 year old was a perfectly fine price. I don’t think that was low-ball at all. I thought the Angels overpaid, I still think that. I think we put 5/100 on Santana. I thought that was a fine price. He gets his 20 million a year and we give him five years. Five years for a pitcher is risky to me, but at the time he was worth the risk. I wouldn’t have wanted the Twins to offer longer/more money. I thought both deals were completely fair and neither leaving was because “we couldn’t afford them.” If they were asking for more, which they were, then that was on them. It wasn’t a case of low-balling in my eyes.
And the more I think of it, the more I think that they were good choices to move on, especially not signing Hunter. We could have had about 140 million dollars wrapped up in those two guys. I’d rather be making the moves and do the signings we are now, rather than have them both back at that price. Yes, we’re down an ace, but we also saved $100 million dollars from him alone. I’d rather use that money to fix a lot more problems and then maybe find an ace and hopefully get lucky and find a cheap one out of nowhere, like we did with Santana.
Santana was an elite pitcher at that point (still is), and $20 mil a year is not enough to land a top 3 pitcher who is entering free agency. Part of the reason they might of left is also a chance to win a championship. Mets looked like they had a chance and things went wrong, while Torii Hunter has made it to the ALCS.
If you average out what Santana got from the Mets, he only got 21.5 million a year. I believe that’s if they pick up his option year. Otherwise, I think it’s more like 22-23 a year. The Twins offered 20. The biggest difference is that the Mets gave him more years and at the time Santana was looking for about 140 million total. So really, 20 million a year, at the time was completely good enough for an elite pitcher, especially considering he only went for 1.5 million more a year.
The difference was the length, which made the overall total bigger. Ending up with about 50 million dollars more overall, is a huge difference, but I still don’t think the Twins low-balled him because they gave him 20 a year, which is almost exactly what the Mets did. He got more security and overall money from the Mets, which I’m sure helped make his decision a lot easier.
Plus, I really do think he wanted to get out of here. He was tired of the Twins never going for it all and it seemed like he wanted to be in NY and the NL to hit.
So, like I said, I don’t think either player was low-balled. Twenty a year for a pitcher is risky, especially for five years or more, elite or not..arms break down no matter how good you are. Fifteen a year for a guy who would be mid-30’s (or more-Angels) near the end of his contract is risky.
I think if Santana was on the market today, he could still probably make a ton, but not near what he did. Hunter on the other hand, I think he’d be one of the ones asking for 10 million and not getting it. There were a few players who were quite good and got very little in FA this year and last.
I will always agree with the Twins saving $140 million dollars on those two players. If we signed those two, Cuddyer and Morneau wouldn’t have gotten a combined over 100 million dollar deal. Span, Kubel, Baker and Blackburn might not have gotten their contracts. At least, Span’s wouldn’t have been done this early and his price would have probably kept going up. If that $140 million dollars was on the Twins payroll right now, there is absolutely no way anyone is talking about the Twins possibly retaining Mauer. Mauer > Santana + Hunter, at least in my opinion. And for sure Mauer (not done yet, but at least the possibility) + Span + Baker + Kubel + Morneau + Cuddyer + Blackburn > Santana + Hunter.
If Mauer is going to take up too much of the Twins payroll, so much where it hinders other moves/extensions then I am all for trading him. This is not the Mauer Twins. It’s the Minnesota Twins. If we can’t put players around Mauer to win, then why would we keep him? I’m sure he doesn’t want to be the next Kevin Garnett, eventually it was good to be KG championship-wise, but it took a long time and a trade. Mauer wants a championship, but if he wants one here then he needs to take a discount. We won’t give him 25 a year like the Sox and Yanks could. We can’t afford contract mistakes. Those two teams can. Right now the Sox pretty much bring in double our revenue and the Yanks bring in triple. They can afford to screw up. So if he wants to go the Santana/Hunter route, so be it, but we wouldn’t even have a chance with him if those two were on this team right now.
I am a Tigers fan, but I agree on that. Hate seeing all the Red Sox fans think the Padres will take anything for Adrian Gonzalez.
Amen. Its far from a twins-specific issue.
Boston and Gonzalez is a completely different issue. For starters, I never mentioned Boston, I’m solely asking where this Yankees’ frustration stems from.
So far I’ve heard you can’t compare Span, Boston wants Gonzalez, and with the new stadium the Twins are different with payroll (which, for the record, I already mentioned things had changed).
Which is fine, those are all accurate points, but none of them have anything to do with the argument.
I said, if you don’t feel Hunter, Santana, and Mauer are fair comparisons, than clearly they didn’t upset you in the first place when the Yankees were connected to them.
So I ask again, can you name me one player barely in the majors who played for the Twins and was connected to the Yankees due to the Yankees’ media being self entitled?
The fact you yourself can not name one is alarming because that tells me you’re all bent out of shape over nothing except this one article from Joel Sherman.
Everything else mentioned here is irrelevant. You initially stated NY media and the Yankees really piss you off because they’re constantly trying to take players from your team…You sighted Denard Span. When I gave you the benefit of the doubt and sighted former superstars whom the Yankees were indeed connected to, and then I explained why, you told me you disagreed and said it wasn’t a comparison.
So now I’m asking again, give me a comparison. Give me a player or two whom this is comparable to to spark such a past hatred?
Or else you’re just another paranoid mid-market fan who will try to find anything to hate the Yankees and will use faulty logic and hope other mid-market fans agree, despite the lack of any proof.
And that is upsetting and unfair to me and Yankees fans.
And for God Sakes, where was Johan Santana at Phil Hughes’ age? By the sound of some of these posts, you’d think he wasn’t a dominant reliever with the potential to start. Just because the Yankees have excellent front of the rotation pitchers, doesn’t mean Hughes’ ceiling is in the back of the rotation, it means in 2010 he’s being asked to pitch in the back of the rotation.
Do you think Hughes 2010 has a higher market value than Hughes 2007?
I admitted it’s a fair point that Span is the first name the Yankees have targetted in recent memory from the Twins organization of his type – his “type” being young, talented, and cheap.
However, I don’t follow the Post or YES chatter on non-Twins players, but I’d be willing to bet Span isn’t the only player the sense of entitlement has been bestowed upon. And frankly, even if Span is the only one, it’s amazing that not a single other team has been linked to making aggressive inquiries on a player that the rest of the baseball world seems to have concluded, “Why would the Twins possibly want to give him up?”
I’ll answer this separately since you asked me two different things.
1. I do not think Hughes has higher market value now than he did in 2007, but I also don’t believe that is necessarily his fault, nor did I ever say he did. The only thing Hughes did wrong was struggle as a 21 year old and get hurt, something which happens to almost every phenom before they are….A phenom. I also think he was rushed to the majors to fill a need, and sent to the bullpen to fill another need, so he has never been given a chance to go through growing pains as a starter and then become a starter, hence why he’s still under innings limits.
2. it’s amazing that not a single other team has been linked to making aggressive inquiries on a player that the rest of the baseball world seems to have concluded, “Why would the Cardinals possibly want to give him up?”
-Albert Pujols. Phillies?
It happened…..Yesterday? And you’re telling me it’s never happened ever?
Red Sox alone have been linked to Gonzalez and Mauer, each.
Not to mention, you’re saying that about Span now, but it appears this article is from last year, before Span had finished really proving anything except that he has potential, something Hughes also has.
What about all the Miguel Cabrera rumors?
Granted these are all superstars unlike Span, but it left me scratching my head on all of them….And again, since you have no comparison to Span except Span himself, but clearly had a history of getting mad at the Yankees, I think it’s fair to include those players.
If the Garza/Young trade never went through and you saw an article a year later stating the Twins had tried to pry Delmon Young from the Rays, how would you have reacted? With the same hatred?
On your first point, were in agreement. My fundamental position was Hughes no longer holds the trade value he once did. I did not mean to imply he is silva-esque. Someone else put those words in my mouth.
On your second point, all the players you list, as you acknowledge, are not of the same type as Span.
I wish this was possible but is rather trade Jonas hughs looks more likes starter span will be a great player one day it was smart of the twins to say no
Denard Span is the man!
If he ever becomes a Dodger he will be Denard on the Boulevard.