Rangers managing partner Chuck Greenberg told Marc Narducci of the Philadelphia Inquirer that he considers the Red Sox, Angels and Phillies three of baseball's model franchises. The Rangers do a lot of things right themselves and the Twins, Rockies and Rays win consistently without the benefit of massive payrolls. We can't ignore the Cardinals and Braves, who always seem to contend or the defending World Champions. You could make a case for a number of teams and you can vote for all 30 of them in today's poll:
Which team is baseball's model franchise?
Click here to vote and here to view the results.
Someone voted for the Mets, thus, the poll is void.
Exactly what is wrong with AS game voting and anything that has to do with fan voting, also those 100 or so votes for NYY and even, the Red Sox i like that will even in instances go out and buy a piece ir 2 they want to fill in a whole they cannot fill that the farm system cannot.
So? How many starters do the Sox have from their farm? Buccholz, Lester, Pedroia, Youk, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard, etc. Also, I believe being a greatly run team also means bringing in revenue from the fans and putting it to the team. Thus, the Sox do both.
I am a die hard Mets fan from Boston. I hate the Red Sox with a passion but they are the best run team in baseball. They compete in the strongest division in baseball. They are in the running almost every year. They bring in revenue to be able to go out and get good players but they also develop players (Varitek, Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard, Buccholz, Lester, etc.) and draft smartly. They also spend wisely(Beltre, Scutaro, Ortiz). They are one of the few teams that do not have a glaring regrettable contract (ie-Zambrano, Oliver Perez, Zito, etc.). They have one of the best, if not the best, health and training systems in baseball and have one of the best season long managers (a manager who manages playing time over a season opposed to a good game manager).
They have 3 regrettable contracts in their starting rotation alone. The bottom line is most teams dont have the cash to be able to take risks like the Red Sox do every year. In my opinion, being in a huge city should not have any impact when deciding who the “model franchise” is. What might not be a regrettable contract for Boston would be for many other clubs.
julio lugo alone would’ve set back some teams. lol
edgar, lugo, beckett, cameron, lacky, dice-k we bad descions to just name a few for the sox and every teams as homegrown the yanks have jeter, posada, hughes, cano, rivera, gardner, chamberlain, robertson, pettite, johnson, all yank draft picks or international free agents and how is scruto wisely he got out played by lowrie so they could have saved $ten million for the same below average offensive and average d, also varitek wasnt develop by them he was traded for in 97 and stared in 98.
I’m a mets fan, and voted for the phillies : (
Mets were the obvious choice. The Royals were my #2 pick.
I can come up with 14 reasons why Braves should be #1. 1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005.
Agreed. Hard to judge some of the recently successful teams without the long view, too.
And 1 world series?
yeah but 5 world series participated in, hosting one of the best players of the recent age that has never had anything to do with steroids (Chipper), hosting one of the best managers of all time, the best and longest tenured “big three” to ever be boasted, a team that was nationally broadcasted for quite a while therefore having a huge fan base…want me to continue?
I agree NYBravosFan10 just because we won one World Series don’t mean aything but how many times hase ur team finished the year winning there division in a row and oh going to the playoffs and get to the World Series?
But being in the playoffs all those years and winning just one time just isnt a good ratio. I understand that making the playoffs is an accomplishment on its own because you get the chance to win a world series but Ill take two good seasons where my team wins the world series in a decade over making the playoffs ten times with nothing to show for it.
The playoffs are basically a crap shoot. You could say that Bobby Cox over-managed things in the playoffs, but what more could the Braves as an organization have done to win more World Series?
The NL was weak then also. Can also look back to the KC Royals winning a LOT of AL West division titles way back by default when there was no other team in that division after Charlie O’Finley sold his players off that was suitable for being above a AAA team.
That’s so true not because Im from GA and love the Braves but because they always have good minor league players in there farm system and they seem like there back to there winning ways
Speaking of which, they gave my team (the rangers) the gifts of Andrus, Feliz and Harrison (not to mention Salty and Bo Jones) for Tex and Mahay – and they still had plenty of minor league tallent!! That’s pretty frkin’ awesome.
you’re welcome for that btw…you DEFINITELY won lol. We got Mahay and Teixeira. Mahay lead to nothing and Tex lead to kotchman and stephen marek, kotchman lead to adam laroche and laroche lead to nothing. So you have andrus and feliz and we have marek…he’s not bad but uh, yeah…
Brian Cashman once said that the organization that all franchises try to emulate is the Minnesota Twins and their excellent scouting system.
It sucks that other teams are starting to see that, and focus on it. The Twins are losing their competitive advantage.
Fortunately, the Yankees can only go so far with it when they’re consistently signing Type A free agents.
Not really , a lot of top line talent drops in recent drafts due to signablity , in other words the amout it will take to sign them. The Sox ,Yankees and the other big market teams can still sign type A free agents and still have a great draft because of $$$$
That’s okay, the Yankees have one of the best Latin American scouting departments in all of baseball. In fact, about half of their best prospects are not from the draft. Makes you wonder what all these other teams are doing, missing out on this platinum mine of talent.
Buy enough lottery tickets you’ll eventually win something.
I just wonder why all the lottery tickets certain other teams buy crap out, while the Yankees’ tend to do well for themselves.
It is a mystery. It’s almost like the Yankees are buying the CORRECT lottery tickets using some sort of selective method. Gosh, I just can’t put a word on it.
While my argument was meant to be more sarcastic I do have to ask the question: what is the success rate of Latin American prospects and how many of them are major leaguers. And I do mean the ones who became major leaguers.
I have no idea. It’s likely very low, but probably higher than the draft, given that these kids’ lives revolve around baseball since it’s one of the best ways to climb out of poverty and make it into America.
Sounds like a good project.
Maybe you should do the research before you make those claims next time. There are hundreds of successful Latin players in the big leagues, and not all of them play for the Yankees.
Mmmmm FAIL.
My original point, before we delved off into a side-point, was that the Yankees have a hell of a Latin American scouting department. And they do. They consistently produce major league players and prospects that have not come from the draft, which has allowed them to have highly-rated farm systems in cerain years despite consistently picking last or near-last in the draft and losing draft picks to free agency.
You should probably re-read your own posts.
“Makes you wonder what all these other teams are doing, missing out on this platinum mine of talent.”
“I just wonder why all the lottery tickets certain other teams buy crap out, while the Yankees’ tend to do well for themselves.”
I shouldn’t have to point that out to you about your own posts, but whatever. I never questioned the quality of the Yankees’s international scouting.
I always wonder why I post on these boards, if I’m going to get rushed by illiterates.
Let’s review. I hope I can increase your reading comprehension.
“…lottery tickets certain other teams…”
Certain. Meaning some.
“Makes you wonder what all these other teams are doing”
There are plenty of teams in MLB that do not take full advantage of Latin American free agency, which I referred to in the use of my word ‘certain’. Never did I intimate the Yankees are the only team that takes advantage of Latin American free agency, just that they were among the best that do. I guess it’s too much to ask to have other commenters actually understand common English.
So, try again. Actually, please don’t. The disussion will be better for it.
…ok….name the 5 top players produced by the Yankees that came from Latin America in the last 10 years. These would be players that are producing on the major league level now.
1 – soriano
2 – cano
…
…
help me out cuz after Cano, im struggling
I’ll even help you out, Soriano wasn’t even technically signed from Latin America.
Heck from this year’s team alone, they have:
Cano
Nova
Cervelli
Aceves
Nunez
Pena
Miranda
Then there’s guys they traded away but signed and developed originally:
Melky Cabrera
Jose Tabata
And then of course, Jesus Montero will 99% likely see the majors next year.
Sure they might not all be superstars like Cano, but simply reaching the majors, especially while breaking into a perennially contending Yankee team, is a pretty big accomplishment.
Your words = “That’s okay, the Yankees have one of the best Latin American scouting departments in all of baseball.”…and ur right, i never realized soriano came from Japan.
so now in terms of all-stars…ummm…the yankees have produced 1 all-star in the last 10 years from their latin american scouting team…..what do u qualify as being “one of the best” ?
just producing talent that makes it to the majors !?!
i think the yankees can pee in ur cup and u’ll call it lemonade if they put ice in it.
Your words = “That’s okay, the Yankees have one of the best Latin American scouting departments in all of baseball.”…and ur right, i never realized soriano came from Japan.
so now in terms of all-stars…ummm…the yankees have produced 1 all-star in the last 10 years from their latin american scouting team…..what do u qualify as being “one of the best” ?
just producing talent that makes it to the majors !?!
i think the yankees can pee in ur cup and u’ll call it lemonade if they put ice in it.
I’ll even help you out, Soriano wasn’t even technically signed from Latin America.
Heck from this year’s team alone, they have:
Cano
Nova
Cervelli
Aceves
Nunez
Pena
Miranda
Then there’s guys they traded away but signed and developed originally:
Melky Cabrera
Jose Tabata
And then of course, Jesus Montero will 99% likely see the majors next year.
Sure they might not all be superstars like Cano, but simply reaching the majors, especially while breaking into a perennially contending Yankee team, is a pretty big accomplishment.
I like a team that can consistently do more with le$$ – and an excellent farm system. For that reason, gotta go with the Twins!
If you call a team with an almost $100 million payroll and a farm system that can’t even reach the top-15 in nearly any rankings, then yes, their better than the Braves.
I’d take the Twins over the Braves this decade……90s though, you have to go Braves
This decade, Braves have had 7 playoff appearances, and Twins only have 6. That still makes the Braves better. When it comes to WS titles, their tied, but with pennants and division titles, Braves have them beat, badly.
This is also the FIRST year in the past decade the Twins have had a higher payroll than Atlanta. You guys have spent about $200M more over the past decade for that extra playoff appearance.
The braves were the ONLY org in the NL east consistently run well. ( the phillies past 4 year run being the exception ).put the braves in any division in the AL and they turn into the blue jays.
The braves were the ONLY org in the NL east consistently run well. ( the phillies past 4 year run being the exception ).put the braves in any division in the AL and they turn into the blue jays.
The Twins farm system has always been this way. They never receive recognition for blue-chip talent, but they consistently DEVELOP players into being impact MLB guys.
Valencia and Span are two that come to mind in the past two years – guys who weren’t on anybody’s radar as prospects, but developed well and became very useful MLB players.
Morneau?
Morneau was a third-round pick in 1999, but by 2003, was a top-ranked 1B prospect (just prior to his debut). You could say he wasn’t very highly regarded until he spent 4 years in the Twins system developing.
Mauer is obviously the other blue chip prospect, but he was a #1 overall pick.
When you go up and down the lineup, you see alot of guys who have exceeded the expectations placed on them by every other major league team. And that’s not just a product of the Twins having some crystal ball, but the Twins coaching ability. Read any players’ account, and they all talk about how the Twins coaching through the minors (I’m not talking the individual coaches, I’m talking the philosophy of teaching players) is completely unique.
I’m talking about Span, Valencia, Blackburn, Baker, Neshek, Crain, Duensing, Punto (love him or hate him). These are all guys who have greatly exceeded anything anybody would ever have expected from them, and that’s because they’ve been well-taught in how to play the Twins style of baseball.
You could also say the same things about the Braves farm system. Martin Prado, Tommy Hanson, Kris Medlen, Brandon Beachy are all players that greatly exceeded their expected value.
IMO, I would rate the Twins and the Braves as relatively equal in terms of being a model franchise. Neither have exorbitant payrolls but they have great fans, a great farm system, and a history of being competitive on a yearly basis.
I agree completely. Both deserve to be in the conversation. FWIW, I don’t think there’s a clear “best”. Every franchise operates within the confines of their market. Steinbrenner was able to greatly expand his market – huge props for that. Tampa seems to do terrible at even establishing a market – they deserve a knock for the atrocious marketing job they’ve done.
There’s bits and pieces of a handful of organizations that everyone else tries to emulate. Twins and Braves both absolutely deserve to be in the conversation.
gotta throw the Mets in there as an exception to knowing how to spend within your market. The Wilpons have money pouring out of their ears and refuse to spend it on good players
turning down the Manny Ramirez deal in the 06 winter meetings was the beginning of their spiral. Add Manny to that lineup and the domino effect would’ve been tremendous.
Buzzholz, Lester, Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard (and for a couple years Dlecarmen), etc
I’m not sure how all those guys were regarded when they were originally acquired, but there’s certainly no doubt that Boston has gained alot of respect for their success at developing talent in recent years.
How about the Marlins or Rays? The Marlins have two World Series because they gave up 5-6 years so that they could develop the right talent and bring them to the majors. The Rays did the same over 10 years. Thats more than the Twins ever did
i went angels. they have a badass owner, they have a bit of a budget, but they also have a solid track record of developing their own talent. they dont always win, but they’re always making moves to compete.
I’m not sure if this accounts for a fans experience or just winning.
If you are talking fan experience then the Angels have to be at the top. Incredibly affordable. Players are approachable. The culture is just night and day difference vs most clubs. The Angels ownership is so amazing to their fans.
Having been a fan since the mid 80’s I can honestly say that the team has just done a complete 180 when it comes to this facet of evaluating a ballclub. Autry tried, Disney was a disaster, but Moreno has been a savior.
And, oh yeah, they are a pretty solid club. Since 2001, not many teams have won more games with less money.
Love the Twins baseball decisions. Hard to find fault with the Braves or Cards. And of course, the big market teams (Phillies, Sox, and Yankees) have all been consistently great.
The Rays have to be top three, otherwise this poll is a joke. To compete with the Yanks and Sux year in and year out with a meager payroll is amazing if not just plain unfair.
Disagree here.
Rays have been good the last 3 years……to me, that’s not enough to consider them “consistently” a good team. What happens if Soriano, Crawford, and Pena leave, then they trade Garza, and they drop to 4th place in the AL East for the next couple years?
They are a model of how to build a farm system…..but they still have a ways to go before I’d say they are a consistent winner.
I’d definitely put the Rays top 10 though……but I want to see how they handle losing their stars.
Indians had a decent run from 2005-2008. Two 90 win seasons, 2 Cy Young Winners, and 3 .500 seasons despite having payrolls under $80M. They maxed out on salaries though in 2009 and were forced to trade their stars and rebuild. Farm system was ranked 3rd best heading into this season. Should remain a top 10. Not a “model” franchise IMO, but Rays didn’t exactly accomplish a whole lot more.
Pena sucks and is incredibly replaceable. There is a glut of 1B/Dh types in the AL. Crawford is the most overrated player in the game, and they’re going to get almost the same production out of Jennings (without the defense).
Soriano is a RP. Internal or external options will emerge for low cost. You shouldn’t be signing bullpen guys to long contracts.
The thing about the Rays is that they were so bad for so long, so they accumulated a ton of top draft picks. Now, they get credit for many of those guys panning out, and also making some good trades. However, looking at their attendance, you have to wonder how sustainable such a model is.
I do credit them for being so competitive in the AL East. You just wonder what will happen when the payroll gets slashed this off-season.
To be fair, top draft picks don’t equal automatic success. The Pirates have accumulated a ton of top picks too, and almost none of them have panned out.
I think you need to consider the teams with the most balance, you can’t only work the development rout, same as you can’t just buy your way. That’s not balance thus can’t be the model. You need to develope most, trade for a couple and expect to buy a few pieces to make it come together. Using that model you really can’t consider Minn as they rarely buy a player same with Rays. You would have to consider Cardinals, Braves and RedSox maybe Phillies. I didn’t include the Angels though they are close as they never seem willing to go that final mile to get the win. I voted the Braves myself and I believe the RedSox are modeled on the Braves system.
Honestly, I think it’s a joke that the Rockies only have 8 votes. In my opinion the Rockies do everything right on a (relatively) limited budget. They have a good young team, and are still stocked with talent in the minors. They respect their veterans and franchise icons (hello Todd Helton) while still developing great young talent (Tulo, CarGo).
Close runners-up would be: Braves, Twins, Giants, Rays?!?!
Rockies are up there, but I would still put a team like the Twins above them since they at least have more playoff appearances to show for it.
I think that has more to do with luck than being a good franchise. Mauer and Morneau go a long way to achieving those playoff appearances. I know that drafting projectable players is part of being a good organization, but at the same time, there are no sure things in the draft or international signings and luck play a significant role in all that.
Liriano – grabbed from SF as an unheralded, unrecognizable guy in 2004. By 2006, the #6 prospect in baseball.
Santana – same story, grabbed in the Rule 5 from Houston, and never on anyone’s radar until he won a Cy Young.
Morneau- third-round pick in 1999 and developed into a #16 overall prospect before his debut.
Nathan – grabbed from SF (along with Liriano) as a guy floating between spot starts and bullpen work, and identified as elite closer potential.
These are just 4 recent all-stars who it’s hard to say “luck” has much to do with. They’re all posterboys for the Twins having a good eye for talent, and developing it well.
How can you call one club “lucky” with their drafting, when they do it so consistently well, and then another club develops “great young talent”?
Yay, I could be a homer too but I choose not to. I’m not saying the Twins aren’t a terrific franchise (as exhibited by them making my top 3). Mainly just pointing out that there shouldn’t be over a 100 vote difference between Colorado and Minnesota.
Happy now?
Unfortunately, Colorado doesn’t seem to be in many people’s Top-5 discussions. There’s alot to like about them, but the Helton deal has become an albatross. They’re begging the guy to retire instead of eating a huge chunk of their payroll for a marginal performance. They’ve had some great finds in Cargo, Tulo, Jiminez… but the Marlins could make the same claim, and nobody puts them in the conversation.
I like Colorado. They’re in a similar market to Minnesota, and they’ve got some explosive young players. But it’s pretty clear they’re not widely acknowledged as anything more than above-average in terms of model organizations.
Oh, and for the record, our playoff run the past decade isn’t built on Mauer/Morneau. They hadn’t even arrived until 2005, and we already had 3 appearances by that point. Hunter/Radke were the homegrown core that fueled those drives.
I also agree Colorado has done some good things, but they also had some really bad years when they signed guys to some big contracts, etc. I think their good run started maybe a year or two before their World Series appearance. They are on their way to being a franchise to look up to, I just think the fact that they are so new on the scene will detract from their votes.
“I think that has more to do with luck than being a good franchise.”player development (the reason i believe they make those playoff appearances) has nothing to do with luck. Considering they have posted winning records 9 out of the last 10 years including 6 postseason appearances, I have to think somebody in that organization is doing something right. How many other teams would be able to lose their star 1st basemen for significant time and make the playoffs two years consecutively?
The Rockies developed CarGo?
Not as a minor leaguer, no. But as a young MLB player, yes.
The Yankees are currently in the top 5. Quit trolling….
Competing year in and year out? Give me a break.The Rays have been competing for the last three years. Before that they were happy collecting Revenue Money and stock piling draft picks. This year they’re going to start the process again by cutting payroll.
You have to disassociate the current Rays from their previous incarnation. This is a new organization since 2006, one that went from a total disaster to a World Series in 3 years and has remained a contender for the 2 years since. So in 5 years, a team that was always a 90-100 game loser has become a contender 3 years running in baseball’s toughest division, winning 2 division titles. Aside from the Yankees, no other AL East team has done that for over 15 years.
Three years is still too short a period to claim Model Franchise. Lets see how this coming season plays out vis-a-vis the free agents situation, before we bestow the title.
Teams that only compete in 3 year intervals and teams who only compete because they can afford to buy the talent other teams develop aren’t really “model franchises”. Maybe they can put together a good team, but I don’t see how that’s the model that should be emulated.
I think I represent a fair number of Twins diehards when I say there’s alot of anxiety that we’re “losing our way”.We’ve had this rap for great scouting, and sure, we’ve found guys like Santana and Nathan and Pavano off the scrap heap and seen that Cy potential in them.But development is what we’ve really done well. Taking lowly-regarded guys like Span, Valencia, Blackburn, and Duensing and coaching them through the minors. None of these guys will ever make an All-Star team, but they’re all very reliable parts. Ozzy Guillen bemoaned the fact that the Twins always seem to beat him with “guys he’s never [freakin] heard of”. A Danny Valencia isn’t going to get attention in the minors, but the kid comes up as a rookie and hits over .300 at the hot corner.As we expand our payroll from $70M to $100M, we’re nervous the front office is going to start trying to “buy” players. Every free agent signed costs desperately-needed draft picks, which are the cornerstone of building a sound farm system. The past decade we haven’t benefited from top draft choices (a pitfall of having a winning season every year), but rather developing those second-tier guys into their full potential.Not only do the faithful see trades like Ramos for Capps and Santana for nothing is moving the wrong way (really, we’d have been better off offering Santana arbitration and taking our picks). We’re depleting our talent capital with every move the past few years.This winter will be very interesting. Do the Twins let some parts walk away, preserving others, and rely on developing young talent to once again be competitive? Or do they go “all-in”, up the payroll $10M or make big splash trade (never their style), in the hopes of getting out of the first round at the expense of the farm?
I hear what you are saying… Hopefully they can do a little of both. There are some parts that should be let go, some that could be traded, and some deals (trade or FA) that should be done. There is talent on the way, but most of it is a ways off (Hicks and Sano). For the short term, we can look forward to Kyle Gibson. We do need an Ace, but the only option I see is trading for Greinke. You never know, it could happen…
I’m pretty skeptical of grienke. We have an ace in liriano. How would grienke do in NY in october? His previous nervous breakdown, his big-market NTC, all indicate he could implode in a high pressure situation.
Not to mention hed cost Gibson and Hicks…
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I have to agree there. Well said.
How can the Yankees be a model franchise when they’ve only won two championships in the last 10 years with that payroll (2000, 2009). There is no excuse for not having won one every year this decade with the way they spend money–they are one of, if not the most, inefficient teams in baseball. I can’t wait for the them to lose tomorrow night to the Rangers–ah the pleasure of seeing them spend over 200 mil this year and all they can gloat about is their “2010 Wild Card Winner” t-shirt. Seriously, you can’t even win your own division this year? Joke.
The Yankees have spent over $1.9 billion on payroll the past ten years according to Cot’s Baseball Contracts. Pretty sure you can buy a lot more than two world series trophies for that dough.
I take it your team has not made the play-offs recently…?
It’s not about just making the playoffs though when you are talking $200 million or more. With the resources at their fingertips they should be making the playoffs every year and going at least past the first round. When you have individual players making more than some teams payrolls you should be getting the best talent. Now the Yankees do have amazing talent but they also make rediculous moves (AJ, Kei Igawa, Vasquez, Posada) either way over paying for their own players or or bringing back players that have proven to be disasters in New York. The worst part is that they have a spectacular young outfielder in Brett Gardner and you just know that the Yankees will acquire someone to block him. Not to mention that he should be leading off every game and instead they lead off Jeter and his horrible OBP. That is not a model franchise, it is a franchise that can make horrible mistakes but luckily have outside money to throw money at it and cover it up. But it is not sustainable.
I agree. And for the record, the Yanks infield makes more than half the teams in baseball. That’s just silly.
I’m thinking that doesn’t apply to the Red Sox and NESN money does it?
I feel I did a good deed today. I sent out a thread and it let a frustrated Yankees hater realease some venom. It’s not good to keep that pent up inside.
I don’t believe I said that the Red Sox are a model franchise. Did I? I expect the Red Sox to be in the playoffs every year and win with the money they spend and the minor league system they have. I go into every year with that expectation.
As a Red Sox fan I do hate the Yankees, but I also hate the Blue Jays, Rays and Orioles. As a baseball fan I just don’t think that the Yankees are a realistic model for baseball teams to follow.
The Yankees should make the playoffs and win every season with the money they spend, that is all sjmm was saying.
I am baffled that someone voted for the Marlins, who are run by a bunch of cheap, conniving weasels that lied to rob the FLA taxpayers.
I voted for Boston because they have both the big market money and the strong scouting department.
Not only are they taking money from the FLA taxpayers they DESTROYED the Montreal Expos franchise with their penny-pinching ways.
The Mets are a model of what not to do. Does that count?
Low blow!
ouch brah lol
Nice to see the Braves getting some love from fans of other teams. My top 5 looks like this
Braves
Twins
Yankees
Cardinals
Dodgers
I don’t see how you can have the Yankees, they spend twice as much as any team you can call a model franchise. Dodgers also aren’t even top 10. In their market they’ve done very little for what’s expected of them. They’ve also made some horrible signings and let good players go (see Beltre and Werth).
I would add the Angels to the other 3 and probably the Phillies as the other.
They also traded Milton Bradley for Andre Ethier.
i wasn’t thinking of money when i made that list…the dodgers are one of baseballs most historic teams. They’re always somewhat competitive, they’ve legendary managers, jackie robinson, and a sure-fire hall of fame announcer that has been around since the beginning of time. I’m pretty sure Vin Scully went to high school with jesus christ
Too bad this isn’t a poll for most historic teams….
I would bet reputation is a factor though…and the Dodgers definitely have that
A lot depends on your definition of “model franchise”, the Angels were voted #1 in fan experience in all of sports on ESPN.
Excellent point!
To me, model franchise means exactly what it sounds like. A franchise that the other 29 teams can realistically model theirs after and work. So anyone who voted for the yanks… you’re joking yourself if you think a realistic model for every team is a $200M payroll. And before I’m attacked for being a Red Sox fan, they’re not a realistic model either. Neither are the Rays… yeah they show if you draft right then you can go far but realistically a lot has to attributed to getting lucky and winning to lottery.
So basically if I cut out teams that have based their success mostly on money or the draft and successful teams. I’m pretty much left with the Cards, Braves, and Twins. Since the Cards have produced a World Series winner in the last few years, I’d say they are the model franchise: Willing to pay (Albert Pujols), good long term planning with trades (Adam Wainright), great scouting (most of the team), great coaching (Dave Duncan), etc.
The one thing the Yankees have done right, is during the Steinbrenner era, greatly expanding their market. The YES network brought in monster revenues and was revolutionary at the time. The Yankees payroll wasn’t always huge, but Steinbrenner took that risk of running in the red, having faith that success would expand his market, and he’d eventually become profitable.
He demonstrated some long term growth strategies, that most other clubs appear to be lacking.
How are 29 other teams trying to expand their market? The Yankees, under Steinbrenner Sr., did it, successfully. Other teams have tried to model the YES network (the Pohlad’s failed around 2003), but nobody has been able to create the kind of nationwide revenues the Yankees have. And it hasn’t always been that way – they did it through Steinbrenner’s business acumen and foresight.
Christ. I’m defending one aspect of the Yankees organization. I feel the sudden need to go shower…
There there, I feel your pain.
Don’t get me wrong, my argument is not yankee bashing but rather pointing out their model is not economically feasible. You’d get to the point where a player like Raul Ibanez would be making $25M a year and ARod’s ego will force him to say he needs $50M a year. And thus the yanks will have a $400M payroll, the Royals will have a $200M payroll and still not compete. Yes that last sentence was sarcastic but I stand by the not economically feasible part.
That said, despite everything I dislike about Steinbrenner I do agree with he has been what’s made New York great. Not when he tried to gather a team, but by making the yankee market the most powerful in baseball. I think a few teams have seen that and said hey, great idea. However expanding the market as well as the yanks have is easier for some teams but not for others.
That’s all true and factual. NY did not always have tons of money, Old man Steinbrenner actually put his money where his mouth was and sunk much of his profits into the organization from the very start. That seems to get lost nowadays because of the payroll. I would not consider the Yankees a model, but will concede that owning a telecasting venue is the wave of the future in order to grow the brand. Nice to see a ‘fair and balanced’ posting from someone other than a Yankee homer.
and to think he bought the yankees with lil to no money down, leading an investment group to buy in. even funnier is that for almost the same price, he tried buying the cleveland indians and was turned down because the Indians owner thought it was a low ball offer. the power of persistence !
The draft is not a lottery. It’s a game of skill.
It’s both.
It’s a game of skill, but ultimately, even the best scouts in the game have bad drafts sometimes or leave good guys exposed in Rule 5.
Exactly. Take for instance the 1999 draft. The first pick became an addict and then fullfilled his potential, the second pick became an ALCS hero, the third amassed a career .214 batting average, and the 4th never reached the majors. And the funniest part, it wasn’t until the 13th round when one of the greatest players of our time was drafted.
Sure but the Cards look like they might be in run of bad years soon. Their lineup is EXTREMELY front-loaded, with Holliday and Pujols taking the vast majority of the payroll there. This season I think was a good representation of how that can backfire; those two guys played well but the rest of the lineup couldn’t get on base for them enough. And the pitching is good, but they have been needing some bolstering there for a while too, and with Holliday and Pujols its clearly getting harder for them to make the moves they need to make.
Someone above already mentioned how the Twins seem to be moving away from their model too. So out of the three, I would pick Braves.
And as a less tactful Red Sox fan, I’d like to put in a little plug for Boston 😛 Sure they’ve got too high of a payroll to really be a model franchise, I realize that. I will make the point that maybe part of that is them competing with the Yanks on free agents, etc. But still, its high. However, after that they have been pretty balanced. Last year was a bad year for FA signings, but Lackey can still rebound. Epstein has kept this team competitive through a balance of FA signing, trades, and drafting. Look at our team: it is surprisingly home-grown. And the coaching has been getting offers every year for managing positions, so at least some of them are doing their job right.
Anyway, not really saying Boston is #1 model franchise, but I do think they’re up there. 🙂
I am a huge Braves fan, but I have to admit I think the Phillies are probably a better run team. The Braves try to be kind of good every year, instead of settling for a down yeah and setting up their team to be championship caliber in the future. Schuerholz made some bad moves to extend his streak of division titles and weakened the team in the long run.
The twins are the model franchise. It is that simple. They compete each and every year with a small market payroll (though they have one of the richest owners in baseball). This is the first year where they actually spent almost $100M in payroll.
No team with a payroll over $100M should be considered a model franchise. I am a Yankee fan but I am including the Yankees in that group. But the group also includes Boston, Angels, Phillies, Dodgers, Mets (though they suck which makes it even worse). You can’t be one of the top payroll teams and be a model franchise.
How about the Marlins? They are consistently in the voting for ROY year in and year out. Granted, doing a fire sale after WS victories isn’t ideal but you gotta do with what you have. They fire sold the first team, yet continued to develop eventually winning another. Fire sold again but built a young core through cheap signings(Cantu), trades(Ramirez) and a good eye for hidden gems(Uggla). Their draft choices haven’t been too good and that’s the only knock on them IMO.
Just my two cents.
I have a lot of respect for what the Twins do year in and year out, but to be perfectly honest, winning the division or making the playoffs (in my opinion) gets old when you cannot win a WS or even a pennant. They’ve made the playoffs 6 times in the last 9 years. The haven’t won a series since 2002, when the division series went the maximum 5 games. And in those 6 playoff appearances, they are 6-21. They are 2-15 in their last 5 appearances.
I’m not saying you HAVE to win a WS ring or the pennant to be a model franchise, but if you go to the playoffs as much as they have, a model franchise would have brought some hardware home atleast once, as the Braves brought home several pennants and a WS ring during there long stretch.
And let me make this clear: I am not comparing the Twins franchise to the White Sox. Everyone knows the White Sox way of doing things is inferior to that of the Twins, as painful as that is for me to say.
I agree with start_wearing_purple’s definition: A model team is a team who does things in a way that all of the other teams can and should do as well.
I love the way the Rays develop talent, but their payroll is too inconsistant and sometimes low for me to call them a team I would want everybody else to model themselves after. Model their player development after, sure; their franchise, no.
The Yankees are on the opposite end. They do alright developing talent, but they’re mostly perennial contenders because of how much they spend. They can make any mistake and yawn at the consequences. It kind of reminds me of playing a game with cheat codes on. Yeah, you might still die from time to time but your odds of winning are leaps and bounds above everybody else. Doing whatever you want without fear of the consequences is also not what you want as a model franchise. I toyed with the Red So but ultimately their payroll is just too high for me to call them the model franchise. They do a really nice job developing talent but they also spend a ton.
So the Twins, Braves and even Rangers (lately) would be near the top of my list. The Braves and Twins both do a model job of developing talent. The Rangers have taken to acquiring their talent largely by fleecing trade partners. The Twins, of course, made perhaps the best trade of all time getting Liriano, Nathan and Bonser for AJ Pierzynski, but their return on Santana hasn’t panned out great thus far. All three teams have reasonable but not excessive payrolls. They have enough money to lock up their biggest stars, but not all of them. They can play the free agent market, but they can’t simply buy the best player at a position every offseason. Often their moves have to be smaller ones they hope pan out strongly, and any mistakes they make in that department can hurt them.
That’s my idea of a model franchise: One who knows what it is doing in all aspects of the game; who can keep many of its stars but still needs to make tough decisions; and who can’t make mistakes without consequences.
knuk, knuk, knuk…More hating on the Yankee’s. If only we could we make it through one day without that. Even the buffoons on TBS are irritating me. A routine ground ball by Young is an outstanding, once in a lifetime play, however Tex (prior to injury) makes a sliding dive, while catapulting himself 4 rows back to catch a foul ball which ends an inning with the bases loaded and it’s just meh. Further, this poll is obviously flawed and Greenburg makes the recommendation for the Red Sox, a team with a payroll only 10-12% less than the Yanks, and a team that hasn’t made the playoffs as frequently in the last decade, and share an equal amount of championships. That said, the Yanks are repeatedly praised by other managers and GM’s for their professionalism and work ethic.
While I agree with many here the Yankee’s may not be the “model franchise” you should sure as believe their are one of the two or three teams to aspire to be. This is an interesting discussion and there will be many different view points and in fact, this has made me think for a few minutes about what baseball team is the “ideal” team.
I have to agree with many on this that the Twins are high up on that list, if not, #1, but keep in mind they’ve won nothing technically, so…They have an incredibly good manager and some great talent which they’ve raised and traded for.
I just want to add one last thing about the Yanks. How many other teams in the last 10-15 years, payroll aside, have produced multiple potential HOF’s, MVP candidates, batting title winners (let’s not forget Bernie, please).
Somebody call the Waaahbulance.
The Braves
Chipper-Batting title in 2008 and second in 2007, 1999 MVP, 1995 rookie of the year runner up. 6x all star, 2x silver slugger.
Andruw Jones-dominated in the gold glove category. 5X all star, 1x silver slugger.
John Smoltz-HOFer and the only pitcher in history to have 200 wins and 150 saves. He also has 3000 strikeouts. 1996 cy young award. 8X all star, 1X silver slugger.
Greg Maddux-18x gold glove, 4x cy young, 3300+ strikeouts, 350+ wins 8X all-star
Tom Glavine-10X all-star, 4X silver slugger, 2X cy young, world series mvp, 300 wins
Brian McCann-5X all star and 3X silver slugger, leading all majors catchers in a few categories since 2006…and he’s only been in the league 5 years
I think i have a point
The fact that the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets and Cubs even got votes just shows there’s a bunch a East Coast swine inhabiting the mlbtr comment section. The Yankees are garbage and buy championships. The Red Sox are no different, just lsightly less guilty. The Mets are garbage and lose, same with the Cubs. The Rangers aren’t a team to be emulated, the only reason why they are winning is because they were in last place forever and got early draft picks and were also being paid for by other teams for the past few years as they teetered on the edge of bankruptcy. The Braves used to be a solid model in the 90’s but now they’re no different than any other team. The Rays don’t bring in enough fans to be a model franchise.
The only teams worth emulating because of fan support, and consistently being competitive at a fair payroll are the Cardinals, Twins and Angels.
Screw the East Coast bias media and their homer fans.
What’s up your butt?
I think you need to get a map out and find out that Chicago isn’t on the East Coast.
neither are the rangers
Wow. I’ve seen a bunch of spite filled comments on this site but you’re getting into the top 10 for that whiny little display. The part that really got me laughing was “fair pay roll,” not sure who died and made you the decider of what’s “fair.”
Some of us come here to debate baseball. But if you want to raise your voice and wet your diaper, go elsewhere.
It’s obvious you’re not from the east coast and you have a very narrow knowledge of baseball. So I was wondering, in what part of the country is your trough located?
In terms of baseball operations, the Tampa Bay Rays. Although, their marketing could use some work.
I vote Twins.
They don’t have the ridiculous amount of media and market size that the Yankees and Red Sox have. They just locked up their franchise player, who’s a top 5 player in baseball, they develop well, and they perennially contend while infusing in young talent.
Braves, Twins 1st and 2nd in some order
Rockies at number 3
Cards at number 4
Rangers, Rays, Red Sox, and Phillies duking it out for number 5.
Red Sox, Angels, and Phillies: $$, $$, and $$$. Really, what have the Phillies done other than spend more money than everyone else in the NL? The only team in baseball that couldn’t consistently win with $150 million payroll are the Mets.
On the other hand, the Braves and Cardinals are two teams that compete every year with mediocre payrolls.
As a Red Sox fan, I’m incredibly impressed that the Rays went from a perennial doormat to competing in a World Series. Other teams have had high draft picks for a long time, but haven’t been able to put it together. To do that in the AL East has been simply amazing. The Sox and Yanks are duking it out, and then to have another power in the mix is crazy. Sure, they could blow it all up (Tampa) and lose Crawford and other guys this year, but if they keep the same execs and managers, there’s no reason they shouldn’t be able to do it for a long time. Sure, they haven’t been doing it for ‘year after year,’ but they’ve only been around since ’98, there’s going to be a bit of a learning curve for the organization. They started in 98 and went to a WS 10 years later.
wow, 2.3% for my Mets? how did that happen? i’m not even voting for them!
Now how about a poll as to which organization is baseball’s “anti-model” franchise? (that poll’s results wouldn’t necessarily be the inverse of this poll’s results)
Well despite they’re only 4th to last, my bet is most people would probably say the Pirates.
On another note, looking at the 10 people who voted for the Pirates, it makes me wonder if there’s 10 hardcore Pirates fans on this site or 10 incredibly sarcastic people.
… or members of the Pirates front office voted 10 times. The Yankees, for one, are polarizing enough that they’d rank high on both the model franchise poll and anti-model franchise poll.
100 people voted for a team that filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
How are the Phillies not in the top of this conversation?
THAT’S the attainable model. Most teams in the league could do exactly what the Phillies did:
1) Succeed in the draft (Burrell, Rollins, Howard, Utley, Madson, Hamels) with many top picks and a couple steals in Howard (5th round) and Madson (9th round).
2) Successfully pick up young, cheap players who have a chance to develop: Werth (UFA after missing a season with broken wrist), Victorino (Rule 5), Ruiz (Undrafted FA), Romero (waivers)
3) Trade prospects (especially pitching prospects) for veteran pitchers like Lidge, Blanton, Lee, Halladay, and Oswalt
4) Invest in your OWN PLAYERS at fairer market prices. Not counting Werth who was unsigned for months, only Polanco (who replaced Feliz who was acquired UFA as well) and Ibanez (signed to replace Burrell when he went UFA) were free agent signings. The entire rotation, set up, closer, and the other six fielders were all either developed or traded for.
THAT, in four points, is the model for success in MLB.
How are the Phillies not in the top of this conversation?
THAT’S the attainable model. Most teams in the league could do exactly what the Phillies did:
1) Succeed in the draft (Burrell, Rollins, Howard, Utley, Madson, Hamels) with many top picks and a couple steals in Howard (5th round) and Madson (9th round).
2) Successfully pick up young, cheap players who have a chance to develop: Werth (UFA after missing a season with broken wrist), Victorino (Rule 5), Ruiz (Undrafted FA), Romero (waivers)
3) Trade prospects (especially pitching prospects) for veteran pitchers like Lidge, Blanton, Lee, Halladay, and Oswalt
4) Invest in your OWN PLAYERS at fairer market prices. Not counting Werth who was unsigned for months, only Polanco (who replaced Feliz who was acquired UFA as well) and Ibanez (signed to replace Burrell when he went UFA) were free agent signings. The entire rotation, set up, closer, and the other six fielders were all either developed or traded for.
THAT, in four points, is the model for success in MLB.
How are the Red Sox or Yankees the “model” when only 5 or so teams can spend anywhere close to what they do? The “model” should be a team like the Rangers who relies on home grown talent, smart free agent acquisitions (not buying out the market), and meaningful trades for the sprinkling of needed veterans (Lee/Hamilton etc.). I am not a Rangers fan, but I don’t see how the unfair advantage of being able to buy everyone puts you in the conversation of “model franchise”. That is a model that barely anybody can fit.
How are the Red Sox or Yankees the “model” when only 5 or so teams can spend anywhere close to what they do? The “model” should be a team like the Rangers who relies on home grown talent, smart free agent acquisitions (not buying out the market), and meaningful trades for the sprinkling of needed veterans (Lee/Hamilton etc.). I am not a Rangers fan, but I don’t see how the unfair advantage of being able to buy everyone puts you in the conversation of “model franchise”. That is a model that barely anybody can fit.
Wow t hat is great baseball franchise lead to the popularity of baseball among the people. Making investment in the franchise is expensive but it is beneficial in many ways.