Manny Ramirez was "being Manny" one more time, with even his retirement announcement coming under unusual circumstances. The slugger's abrupt departure from the game has already generated a great deal of controversy, and here's a sampling of some of the reaction…
- The overwhelming feeling from media members is that Ramirez's latest brush with a drug suspension probably ends his chances of being voted into the Hall of Fame. One anonymous Cooperstown voter tells CBSSports.com's C. Trent Rosecrans that he "would have had a hard time voting for [Ramirez] before today. The fact that it happened again, I wouldn't vote for him now." ESPN's Amy K. Nelson wonders if Ramirez will even stay on the HOF ballot past his first year of eligibility. (Twitter link)
- As Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com puts it, "if [Ramirez] had two positive tests after MLB began issuing steroid suspensions in 2005, how can we give him the benefit of the doubt that his numbers from the 1990s weren’t juiced, too?"
- Adding to Ramirez's ignomy is this fact tweeted by ESPN's Buster Olney: Ramirez would've been the first player to face a 100-game suspension under Major League Baseball's drug policy. Technically, Ramirez would've just been the first Major League player to face such a long suspension — Ramon A. Castro and Prentice Redman received suspensions for 105 and 100 games, respectively, while on minor league rosters.
- Bobby Jenks tells WEEI.com's Kirk Minihane that his former White Sox teammate is "a really good guy" but didn't mince words about Ramirez's situation. "You do it, you get caught, you’re an idiot. If you do it again you’re a dumbass,” said Jenks. “I mean, it’s sad to see. One of the greatest hitters, or one of them, to make the same mistake twice, same bad choice."
- Ozzie Guillen, Ramirez's manager last year in Chicago, praised Ramirez as a quality player and good teammate, but also praised the strength of MLB's drug-testing policy. “It shows people that Major League Baseball is after [drug users]," Guillen said. "They’re not playing around. They’re letting the players know how tough they’re going to be.”
- The retirement is "a miserable way to go," writes Steve Dilbeck of the L.A. Times. Ramirez's career "ends in shame, the story of a phenomenal hitter who tried to hang on too long and by any means. There’s no final Manny quip, no dramatic last at-bat, no last chapter to make it right.
- Jonah Keri of Fangraphs thinks Ramirez's retirement, Evan Longoria's injury and an 0-6 start may inspire the Rays to already throw in the towel on the 2011 season. Keri thinks Jeff Niemann, James Shields, Johnny Damon and Dan Johnson could become trade bait, though Keri also notes that Tampa Bay could just as easily keep some veterans around so as to keep young stars like Desmond Jennings from accumulating service time.
- Cork Gaines of the Rays Index predicts the team will stay mostly silent about the circumstances surrounding Ramirez's departure: "They will defer everything to Manny and Scott Boras and try to push as much of the stink in their direction."
- Rays manager Joe Maddon tweets that Ramirez's retirement "is a galvanizing moment for us."
Jona Keri thinks the Rays are going to throw in the towel because they are 0-6 in a 162 game season, Longoria is hurt for a little and they lost 39 year old Manny Ramirez.
Can someone please comment on this? I think my words are stifled or lost by the insanity of that statement.
It is a little silly. I suppose if they were in any other division it would be a downright stupid thing to say but in that division a team like the Rays has to be nearly perfect. Still, six games into the season, not even the Pirates would be ready to throw in the towel. What if the Rays had a six game losing streak in June and this had happened the? They wouldn’t be calling for the towel unless they were already way out of it and a least by then they’d have a lot more information to base their decision on.
You are right pageian, why throw in the towel when we have 15 more games against the hapless Cubs!
He wasn’t saying so much that he thinks they will, more like wondering if they will. But honestly they were a long shot to being with and going 0-6 (at any point in the season) only makes their chances worse. Add to that the injury to Longoria and losing Manny who, say what you want about him, was figuring to be a major part of their offence, and their chances are looking pretty bad right now.
Yeah, and this guy Keri has had a book recently published b/c of his depth of knowledge of the Rays?!
The author/screenwriter William Goldman was right: Nobody knows anything!
Every player up until about 5 years ago used greenies to enhance their performance. Babe Ruth never played against black people. Ty Cobb STABBED a black man after calling him an “uppity bad word”, yet some guys make their muscles bigger and that means no HOF? MLB’s puritanism is so stupid. Simply put: Rose, Bonds, Shoeless Joe, Raffy, McGwire, Manny and Clemens all belong in the HOF for their performance on the field. Ban them from ever being employed by a MLB team again by all means, but the HOF should be entirely based on performance and they all have the numbers. MLB is making itself look dumber and dumber by the day by ignoring history in the HOF. So, these players numbers’ never happened? Ridiculous.
i like your idea of shoeless joe and pete rose but thats about it.
So you missed the point entirely then.
I believe Pete Rose belongs in, and I’m partial to most of the steroid guys too. Manny Ramirez A-Rod and Barry Bonds are once in a lifetime players, and no doubt steroids helped them out, but you can’t put up multiple 9 WAR seasons without being something special. As far as Joe Jackson, the guy conspired to throw the World Series to get paid by the mob, thats WAY worse than anything Pete Rose ever did.
“but you can’t put up multiple 9 WAR seasons without being something special”…. or by having some “special help”.
Bonds strung together 3 8-10 win seasons during the “skinny years”
He never “needed” the special help, imo. People forget Bonds was awesome during the pre-steroid days (allegedly lol).
He needed it if he wanted to keep doing it.
That’s what this is really about, older players keeping themselves at a high level of ability.
They are mortgaging their future health to play at their best now.
If they can make that decision, that’s fine with me.
I always thought Bonilla was a better hitter in Pittsburgh.
Rose bet on baseball. Bet on his own team as the manager. And lied about it multiple times. He does NOT deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame.
He had 4200 hits, that means he’s one of the best that ever played. Ignoring that for a singular moral offense is downright silly. Consider all the millions of passes and “second/third/tenth” chances celebrities get these days, its ridiculous to not allow athletes (who are arguably less intelligent than actors) second chances.
But it wasn’t one singular offence. It was years and years of offences. He gambled on baseball. He gambled on the team that he managed. He lied about doing it and blamed others for his mistake. I think that warrants him being banned from baseball and barred from the Hall of Fame.
Banned from baseball sure, but banned from the hall doesn’t make any sense to me. None of the stuff he did off the field changes what he did on the field. The case for keeping steroid users out of the hall makes sense, steroids effected how well they played. The case for keeping Rose out of the hall is weak at best in my opinion; Pete Rose the baseball player more than deserves to be in the hall regardless of what Pete Rose the person did.
But it wasn’t off the field he was ON the field when he bet on baseball. He was the MANAGER of the team he bet on. Therefore as bjsguess says below here he corrupted baseball and should not be in the hall of fame.
I get that, and those are all legitimate reasons to ban him from baseball, but he never did anything to alter his performance on the field. All of his numbers as a player a legit, and should absolutely put him in the hall of fame. The other stuff has no bearing on what he did on the field as a player.
Oh god forbid someone gambles and lies, yet they are one of the best hitters in the game, yet a frigging PED user is considered great because they can hit the ball out of the park. I mean GOD YEAH.
BET ON HIS OWN TEAM. This isn’t a gambling issue. It’s a corruption issue. If he was betting on AL games his penalty would have been a slap on the wrist and he would have been in the Hall.
If you can’t see how serious betting on a game that you are managing (and conversely, what happens to the games when you don’t bet on your team) then there is no point to even have this debate.
Ty Cobb was a racist SOB, I think that is worse than lying because your so called best friend was blackmailing you and it came out you were gambling, so if Pete Rose doesn’t belong in the HOF, I vote to remove all the racist players like Ty Cobb.
Political correctness run amuck.
Since when did having racist views disqualify someone from the HofF? Does the NAACP need to sign off on each player as having appropriate racial beliefs?
Racism is stupid, but in this country you are free to think and say whatever you want when it comes to this subject (thank you Constitution). Why should baseball players be held to a higher standard on something that does not effect the integrity of the game. And if you think Ty Cobb is the only racist to play the game I’m afraid your sorely mistaken. Go watch or read Ken Burn’s coverage of Baseball. Racial tensions have ran high in baseball (like the rest of America) for over 100 years.
As for today, racism is alive and well in athletics. It’s shared by people of ALL races. There are plenty of racist Black, Latin, and Anglo players. Ty Cobb may have been a jerk and a pig but the reason you know about him was because he was so freaking good. Had he been just another guy his antics and comments would have been wholly unremarkable.
Way to always miss my point BJ, you see I was talking about moral fibers and the fact that Pete Rose belongs in the HOF because as Ty Cobb was a racist, he was a hell of a ball player and as much as Pete Rose gambled and was blackmailed and lied, he was a hell of a ball player.
It’s hard for me to think of a worse metric that using “hits” to determine who the best baseball player in history is.
Pete Rose had a couple of very good years and he played forever. One year of an OPS north of 900. A career OPS+ (adjusts for position/league/park) of just 118. For all his hustle his SB’s topped out at 20 and he ended up with less than 200 (over 24 years of playing). He was durable (led the league in PA’s 7 times), but mainly he was a product of simply getting so many AB’s.
Rose played in 24 seasons. His career slash line was 303/375/409. Rose put up an avg (over 162 games) of 98 runs / 34 2B’s / 7 HR’s / 60 RBI’s / 9 SB’s. That’s basically Howie Kendrick’s 2010 season. Would Kendrick be one of the greatest players of all time if he simply repeated his 2010 season for 24 years?
Just like folks that say Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher ever (because of his career K’s and No Hitters), people that look at Rose and see his “record” number of hits and heap on him praise for being the best ever just simply miss the mark.
How many Cy Young awards does Nolan Ryan have, that is my favorite trivia question, but to say Nolan Ryan wasn’t the greatest pitcher is weird, he is definitely one of the greatest just by the fact that he struck fear in the batters that faced him, dominated when he was on the mound and made a standard of what to expect from an ace pitcher.
Joe Jackson had a 956 OPS in the 1919 WS. Yeah sure, I guess he was really holding back there, he was probably going to OPS like 2000 or something, right?
If you believe Shoeless Joe did anything to prevent the White Sox from winning that series, you have looked at zero facts.
OPS of 956? He must have been juicing
Yes, but tobacco juice was legal then.
Yes looking at the offensive numbers makes one assume that Jackson did nothing on the field to throw a game. However if you research a little deeper you will find that there were plays in the field that people questioned if he really tried to get to balls hit to him. Granted he never made an error but for a player that was considered a good fielder he some how couldn’t get to balls that people thought he usually could have gotten too. Another example of this could be like Eddie Cicotte. In the second game he pitched, pitching wise they said he pitched pretty well. It was defensively that he threw a ball away, or deflected a ball that was going home for a play at the plate that really altered the direction of the game.
Joe Jackson was illiterate and had no idea of what was going on, he was only guilty by association, he was a truly talented ball player that had his stellar career stifled by the wrong crowd.
While I don’t condone any of the things you listed above. There is a massive difference in things that happen outside the game vs inside the game…
PEDs affect on field performance leading (ideally) to better numbers.
I’m not sure if guys who are confirmed PED users will or won’t be admitted, I don’t have a strong opinion either way. I’m just merely stating that there is a huge difference between the types of offenses you listed.
Proof that I can agree with you.
group hug?
Greenies 100% enhance performance and were 100% legal in the game. I don’t see much of a difference in players taking advantage of other drugs to enhance their game. If MLB made a stance on steroids in 1992 I’d agree with you, but Selig trying to get fans back after the strike let it happen, so why penalize those who were ALLOWED to take advantage?
you answered your own question. As you said it was legal in the game. which means every player had the opportunity to take the advantage or not if they choose.
where as today, PEDs are an unfair advantage because they are illegal and the majority of players DONT do them.
Greenies are not the same as PEDs. Not the same. Not even close. I’m sure your going to tell me again that they are and I’m sure it’s going to be entertaining.
I wonder who would win the Superbowl if every athlete was off PEDS.
The thing is, Pete, the rules are the rules. The players know they’re not allowed to bet on baseball. They also know they’re not allowed to take controlled substances unless they’re subscribed by an M.D. (This provides a huge loophole to anyone with a good relationship with a Dr. Feelgood, but still.) If you violate the rules, you pay the price. If you think the rules are stupid, get them changed.
I think Pete should be banned from ever appearing on anything associated with MLB again, but I do think he should be in the hall. Still your best point is: If you think the rules are stupid, get them changed.
Unfortunately thats exactly what he’s been trying to do for 30 years.
You don’t have one shred of evidence to back up your claim that “every player up until about 5 years ago used greenies to enhance their performance.” Throwing mud like that only make the thrower look bad.
Are you kidding me? It was a little bit of hyperbole, but its in Ball Four that greenies were left out in bowls like m&m’s at a party. A large majority took them.
Babe Ruth – Correct – he did not play against black baseball players. However, he did play against the premiere athletes of his day. Baseball was the ONLY gig in town. If you were an athlete you played baseball. Today the sport is diluted by sharing athletes across several professional sports. Further, Babe Ruth had NO CHOICE. He broke NO RULE. His playing when he did was completely outside of his control.
Ty Cobb was a racist jerk. However, his racism had no impact on the integrity of the game. He broke no rules and did not cheat.
The other guys you mentioned all took actions that absolutely impacted the integrity of the game (exception possibly to Shoeless Joe). We don’t know what their PERFORMANCE was because their true performance was enhanced. And since ALL OF THEM have repeatedly lied there is no way to know for sure when they start abusing. What they did cheapens the results of those that were clean. And no – not every player abused PEDs or greenies. Many – sure. Most – nope.
Think of how KGJ gets pushed down in conversations about the greatest player in this past generation. The guys that we usually talk about as being the best are confirmed PED users. What if they had suffered injuries, poor performance, etc? Suddenly KGJ becomes recognized as the premier player of his generation. PED’s make a difference and they totally screw with the integrity of the game.
Aaron, Mays, Mantle and Clemente all used amphetamines – a ton of the post-war players got “robins eggs” from team trainers. What about them?
The winter leagues still had “leaded” and “unleaded” coffee pots a few years back.
Drug use in baseball (and sports) is far from “isolated incidents” or a modern problem.
Any player with the taint of doping needs to be kept out of the HOF AND needs to have their stats kept out of the record books. That makes Hank Aaron the HR king still, no matter what Bonds did or what A-Rod does.
No other sport in the world ignores things that happened on the field as much as MLB does. Its absolutely absurd and needs to stop.
Exactly, it’s not just about the advantage the individual gains from their own performance. It’s the larger ramifications of how it impacts entire games, seasons, playoffs, and in the case of the Red Sox, World Series victories.
Does MLB need to police itself better? Yes. But this stuff happened in the NFL with worse consequences to players who ended up brain-damaged or disabled due to not only injury but the abuse of steroids. Blaming baseball alone for ignoring stuff going on in the locker room is absurd.
Baseball is not Football. What the NFL wants to do with PED policies that’s their business. They are too different sports.
It’s hard to find a worse argument than the “integrity of the stats” one. Baseball stats are all over the place historically, yet fans like to think everything was always as it is until Jose Canseco brought steroids into the picture.
So players who used steroids shouldn’t count? Why is that? What if a player used a PED that was not on the banned substance list? Is he really breaking a rule? Don’t forget that baseball’s drug policies were NOT written for steroids; they were written for cocaine. For years, the MLB policy was “don’t break the law,” and this went on until 2003. So if a player was using a PED, why should they be punished?
And baseball’s records are all over the place anyway. Why don’t they count anything from before 1900, for example? Well, they actually do, but not all of it. Just select pieces. Apparently Wee Willie Keeler’s 44-game hitting streak in 1994 is acceptable. Hugh Duffy’s .440 batting average, also in 1894? We can’t count that. No one counts Matt Kilroy’s 585 strikeouts in 1887 as a record, or Hoss Radbourn’s 59 wins in 1884. But Cy Young’s 511 wins all count, even though 290 of them were before 1900.
And then there are the rule changes, like 1931 creating the ground rule double and adding foul poles. Balls that bounced into the stands before 1931? Home runs. But does anyone ever take any away from Ruth’s 60 in 1927?
In fact, the most infuriating thing about the entire MLB Steroid Debacle is how it was sold – that the game had to be cleaned up in order to prevent children from taking steroids, thinking they need to in order to live their dream. A noble goal, but the second a player tests positive, no one mentions anything beyond Cooperstown. Apparently, MLB’s message to the kids was “Don’t use steroids, or we won’t let you into the Hall of Fame.” Yeah, that ought to do it.
Stop with the anti-steroid arguments about erasing history. As for the Hall, I say let the gamblers and the steroid users in. The Hall is, after all, a historical museum, and no one can learn from the history that gets erased. After all, the function of museums is to preserve history, not to censor it.
In fact, any player who has the career, but tests positive, the plan should be simple if you want to keep records straight AND have an effective deterrant. Put all PED users in the Ken Caminiti wing of the Hall of Fame. The entrance should have a plaque commemorating him – “This wing is dedicated to Ken Caminiti. MVP at 33. Dead at 41.”
extremely well done sir.
I refuse to believe that until the modern era, everyone back to Babe Ruth was using HGH and PEDs. They all could have been drunks and scumbags off the field, but none of the booze and bad behavior raised their stats. Call it whatever you want, but I think you celebrate the player who gives you his numbers off the muscle he build with weights and good diet, not for injecting himself with the arse with his chemistry set.
But what about the uppers that were prevalent up until 5 years ago, as was mentioned above? Those did in fact increase their performance the field…
Greenies are amphetamines used to keep a player alert, that by definition is “performance enhancing”.
I guess the next player to get caught with them should be suspended and if multiple violations, shouldn’t get in the Hall …but you can’t apply the rules retroactively.
Being a racist is a disgusting thing but it essentially has nothing to do with cheating while playing baseball. We can loathe Cobb as a human being and still celebrate his accomplishments on the field. Manny, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire all cheated to gain an edge. Rose may or may not have bet against his own team but the rules are very clear about gambling because of the harm it could do to the game.
I understand your argument about basing HOF decisions on what happened on the field but the point here is that what happened on the field with these guys is tainted.
Exactly. Thank you.
Well no this is part of the problem with the HOF. The HOF is this all-knowing all-righteous thing where everyone that goes in is not supposed to be a scumbag, a liar or a cheat. Problem is, those terms are not clearly defined. Cobb was a cheat in that he only played against white people. McGwire was a cheat in that he used drugs to enhance performance. Problem is, both those things were deemed ok by MLB at the time.
It wasn’t racist back then, because that’s all people knew is how to treat other races unfairly because their parents raised them to believe that. Plus Babe Ruth played against all whites? does that make him racist? It’s stupid that people bring what baseball players do outside the game into the debate when in fact it has no regards to the game itself and when someone takes steroids IT DIRECTLY EFFECTS THE GAME ITSELF BECAUSE THE OTHER GUY IS USING A SUBSTANCE TO GAIN A EDGE ON THE OTHER TEAM. /caps lock
So. yeah.
Except that baseball’s Hall of Fame policy, unlike the NFL’s, is supposed to take character into account…
^^ That was supposed to be a reply to Pete above, for some reason it created a new post.
Hope the vaunted Rays pitching staff likes losing 3-0 games…because that’s what they’re going to be doing..A LOT!
Really is an absolute miserable way to call it a career.
Manny. Because we were all getting tired of Charlie Sheen.
#Winning!
“Ignomy” Somewhere in Pittsburgh, Rocco is smiling.
Well at least we have some evidence that progress is being made and players aren’t getting away with stuff as much. Manny won’t be the last high profile player caught up in PED controversy but MLB / MLBPA are at least working towards ensuring the integrity of the game.
excuse me for my ignorance, but when Manny got suspended the first time, his story was that he had a medical problem, got a prescription from a doctor, didn’t get that cleared with mlb and got suspended when it showed up in his urine, right?
Assuming one of you guys that keeps up with this well enough says that’s the case and he’s been caught with this same medication presumably for the beforementioned medical problem, then he loses all credibility for his ‘medical problem’ because he ought to have known better, or his original claims when he first got suspended weren’t really all that legitimate, right?
Just trying to flesh some of the older facts out in the open as I have a short attention span on some things…I just really forgot the details because I didn’t think today would really happen with how ashamed he was getting caught last time.
thanks in advance to everyone that takes the time.
He was caught using a drug that helps fertility in women. Also it is a masking agent. That is what he was suspended for.
much thanks
by known better i mean should’ve cleared it with mlb if it were a legit script/medical problem
Bottom line is: This guy is an absolute idiot and will never ever get in the HOF! He had about a 5% chance the first time. This time, theres no excuse!
I need a day or two to see how I feel about this. I “hated” Manny in his Boston days, but soon after he left, I realized I only hated him because he was so good. It was more of a respect thing. I loved how he played for the Dodgers and mentored the young kids. And the fact he brought so much marketing opportunities and cash revenue to the team was a plus in my book (marketing major). Then the maternity drug suspension that he never really did admit to. Now this. I mean, I feel he is stupid more than anything. How did he not think he would get caught after being caught once already?! I was really hoping for a comeback season…
I hope he does get into the hall of fame. He has been one of the greatest right handed hitters to play, and certainly one of the greatest characters in a game where having a personality is looked down upon.
“I need a day or two to see how I feel about this. I “hated” Manny in his Boston days, but soon after he left, I realized I only hated him because he was so good.”
Try dealing with it from the other side. Manny was essentially my favorite player through my teens and early twenties. Despite how he made his way out of town, I was just so disappointed when he got busted the first time. Watching his career end like this is just awful. Now I know how Bonds fans felt.
Typical Manny displaying the type of behavior that he displayed throughout his entire career. I’m Manny, I can do what ever I want because I am that good, and everyone is going to put up with my B.S. Actually getting caught twice. I mean after everything that has happened in the last couple of years. With the Bonds trial and the Clemens Trail coming up. Blatant disregard for the game of baseball and his team and the fans. Nobody is bigger than the game.
I’m doing a report for school about steroids. Basically, in short, taking steroids can increase the amount of home runs you hit to anywhere from 30% to 70%. In my mind, no, if you take steroids, you should not be allowed into the HOF.
Way to make a completely unquantified statement with designed shock value built in…
What do you want him to do? Write a twenty page thesis with colored graphs proving that steroids can increase the amount of home runs a professional baseball can hit from 30 to 70 percent. I think his statement made more of a point than yours.
If I took steroids I would still hit 0 home runs off of a major league pitcher.
exactly…Give Johnny Mac all the PEDs you want, he’s not hitting any better..
Arod still hit 40+ without the PEDs, they help, but you still need to have foundation as a good baseball player.
Johnny Mac is not A-rod. Johnny Mac is not an elite level baseball player.
elite level defender.. however, that you very much for stating the obvious
…wow
Way to go kid. Steriods are bad.
It makes you wonder, if the Sox lost again today, would Ortiz retire and Epstein trade everyone away?
Jonah Keri was just trying to nail a Jon Heyman impersonation.
one of my fave, and one of the best players ever, even using drugs the hitting was natural!
I’m sure I can count on everyone here to sign my petition to throw Gaylord Perry & Whitey Ford out of the hall of fame. For a start. A more thorough review will identify more players who cheated and don’t deserve to be enshrined.
No cheaters!
I hope to god this is sarcastic.
sadly its probably not..
Why doesn’t the guy focus his efforts on raising money for charity or something instead of a petition to throw 2 dead guys out of the hall of shame
I believe Whitey and Gaylord will be surprised to hear that they are dead.
Whitey died due to getting assaulted by a barrage of pretzels.
ha! Whitey Wackers!
Surely the good name of the hall of fame is more important than a few starving children?
If it’s worth this many internets to keep manny out, than it’s worth many more to ensure the purity of our shrine to fair play, good sports, and baseball!
Perspective is a luxury not many can afford, my friend.
NA NA NA NA…NA NA NA NA…HEY HEY HEY GOOOOODBYE
The guy’s that got cut out of baseball during the steriod era because they chose not to take steriods, setting them at a disadvantage, are the ones that got the shaft. Some of them ought to start some sort of class action… Millions were lost by some because of the cheating with peds
Your the only other person other than myself that I ever heard say that.
Imagine Dale Murphy’s numbers if he had been allowed to used steroids? Add 20% over all and lengthen his career by 8 yrs? He would have retired at the end of 2000 with 700 HRs and would have been a unamimus first ballot HOF in 2005. The Braves would not have ever traded him and would have gone on to win the World Series 10 years in a row.
Now imagine Barry Bonds if he had been strait. He also would have retired at the end of 2000 with 398 HRs. He would still be on the HOF ballot with 11% of the vote!