Let's take a look at this week's edition of Full Count from Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports..
- The Reds aren't going to shop Joey Votto but they'll at least listen to trade inquiries this winter. Cincinnati could come back with Votto for one more year at $9.5MM and play Yonder Alonso in left field but Votto's salary rises to $17MM in 2013 and Alonso's best position is first base. Reds owner Bob Castellini won't want to trade Votto, just as he didn't want to deal veterans at the deadline. However, the Reds would be looking at much more value for Votto at two years away from free agency rather than one year away.
- The Red Sox will likely avoid a historic collapse but if they don't, all bets are off. Manager Terry Francona is technically unsigned for next season as they hold options on him for the next two seasons. Meanwhile, GM Theo Epstein might want to leave for the Cubs regardless, if the Cubs give him more power in baseball operations. The question still remains whether BoSox owner John Henry would allow him to talk with one year left on his contract.
- It would be interesting to see how the Yankees react if, as expected, C.C. Sabathia opts out of his contract. The Bombers have had contentious negotiations with key players in years past, but Sabathia is different. The hurler is only 31-years-old and coming off of three outstanding years in New York. If the talks to turn ugly, he'll certainly have other options.
- Marlins GM Larry Beinfest has let it be known that he would like a chance at the Cubs position. Rival executives say that Beinfest is unhappy with the recent reassignment of Jim Fleming the increasing involvement of owner Jeffrey Loria. The Cubs' level of interest in Beinfest is currently unknown.
Come on just trade Votto for Jose Bautista. Hes not gonna be here in 2 more years anyway and we mite as well trade him while his values still high. And at LEAST trade at least one prospect were OVERLOADED and could get a decent player.
Why would the Jays do that?
cause u guys want votto and we need a power hitter
replacing bautista for votto isn’t exactly adding anything
I know right, why in the world would Jays do Votto for Bautista swap…makes no sense!
Having Votto would be nice, but there is absolutely no way The Jays would do that. You can have Adam Lind for Votto though…
how about lind morrow and rasmus??…
For Votto? Jays would say yes to that so quick it’s not funny
reds wouldnt though, not enough garantee.. and they have no use for Lind..
It would probably take a future catcher, pitcher and either SS/CF
Maybe in a year if Hech’s bat develops they can move either escobar or him
They have no need for a catcher. SS/3B/CF or LF/P is probably what they would look for.
Am I missing something? Is Votto not a power hitter?
Besides, just because we want Votto doesn’t mean we would give up Bautista who is better, has a cheap contract and plays a tougher position.
The deal makes a lot of sense for Cinci though.
They wouldn’t.
because votto would put butts in the seats{native of toronto}…..the aint giving them bautista i can say that
You know Votto is from Toronto right? There are only 5 current major leaguers from the Eastern Canada (Votto, R. Martin, Axford, Bedard and Crain).
Baseball is in a bad way when players are so good that before they’re even FAs teams have to shop them. Votto and the Reds, Gonzalez and the Padres, Miguel Cabrera and the Marlins.
Yeah, it means the sport is filled with front offices incapable of building a team around those players.
Let’s just make a rule that states player’s can’t become free agents, they should be stuck with the teams that draft them. Let’s take arbitration away too. Those players shouldn’t be making those kinds of salaries. Everyone needs to play for the league minimum.
Or dont have an extra 40 million to spend to buy playoff spots every year.
Yeah those teams like the Diamondbacks, Giants, Braves, Brewers, Angels, Rays, and Cardinals are really in a bad spot.
I mean, the Giants are pretty much done but they’re still the World Champions.
Its just ridiculous that a handful of teams collectively have more money than the rest of the league combined. Those select teams are the ones that control the FA market and make it so the lower revenue teams can only afford so many players of such caliber. This inequality will be the downfall of baseball unless it is fixed.
Yeah its Boston and New York’s fault the Marlins didn’t want to tap into their revenue sharing money and give Cabrera the contract he deserved.
I think it’s really bad that the
Diamondbacks won in 2001
Angels won in 2002
Marlins won in 2003
Red Sox won in 2004
White Sox won in 2005
Cardinals won in 2006
Red Sox won in 2007
Phillies won in 2008 (without the large payroll they have now)
New York Yankees won in 2009
Giants won in 2010
Plenty of mid market and small market teams in that mix. But hey, there’s something seriously wrong with baseball.
Having a large payroll has really helped the Cubs, Mets, and Dodgers lately, hasn’t it? Those teams can afford some good players… why aren’t they winning right now? Oh yeah, because it takes more than a high payroll to win a championship.
Ummm. The game worked fine with 16 teams for decades.. Fold the teams who cannot/will not pay due to pathetic support and have -0- reason to exist in the 1st place.
For that matter.. lets go back to 2 8 team leagues, cut out the PO and go straight to the WS for hard core fans.
it gets old hearing from fans of cheapo teams like the Padres, Rays, Pirates who have NEVER had the support, yet expect to fix all of their problems magically with a socialist agenda spread to them that also has been proven a failure everywhere it has been applied.
Pirates have never had the support? I’m guessing you are <18 years old.
Try remembering Pirate greats like Bob Veale, Juan Pizzaro, willie Stargell, Clemente and many others when they were active.
That team lost support when “Pops” Stargell and his “We are family” got old way back in the late 70’s. the pirates have a lousy local tv deal now and are yet another team that counts on revenue sharing for its very existence.
While there’s a lot to be said for filling the park when it comes to “support”, support also comes from having a sufficiently large media market to produce TV (and to a lesser degree, radio) revenues. Teams like the Red Sox and Yanks really do well because of the TV revenues they get from the cable TV networks the teams own. Smaller media markets simply aren’t going to be able to produce the same level of revenues.
Also, I doubt that those smaller market teams that already have trouble getting fannies in the seats are going to be able to raise ticket prices to the levels that the Red Sox and Yankees charge to increase revenues. All fannies aren’t created equal if they’re not producing a similar level of revenue per fanny.
John, john, john.
I sympathize with the initial comments, because one can argue that perhaps baseball has over-expanded itself into markets that just aren’t large enough for the modern game’s financial requirements. However, I don’t think that contraction is a viable option for a few reasons.
For example, look at the Marlins. They’ve just built a new new ballpark with a lot of taxpayer help. Do you seriously think that MLB could contract a team like the Marlins when they have a brand new ballpark and all the financial obligations related to it? I don’t. Teams with new ballparks will be difficult to contract for this reason.
Could MLB contract the Rays? Perhaps, though even their lease on the Trop runs until something like 2027. And contraction must always come in pairs, so who else gets the axe?
(And this doesn’t address getting contracting even 2 teams past the players union, though why the players’ union has a say in it is beyond me.)
Could MLB *afford* contract 2 teams (as in pay off any financial debts for the ballparks, as well as buy out the ownership)? Maybe. Could they afford to contract about half the league? No bleeping way.
As for the political rant, I point to exhibit A … the NFL. The most popular sports league in the US. Case closed.
new park or not, that is the local area problem and a horrific mistake that should NEVER have been forced onto the taxpayers in almost every single case.
The days of ownership paying for stadiums (or almost entirely) is what is needed now. That is what I meant by the league needing only strong and viable teams, inwhich weak teams are discarded. Forget the Unions. Contracts are made to be broken when the long term survivability of any corporation is at stake.
As you (and myself posted) look no further than the collapse of a couple of US automakers, as well as the looming collapse of the US postal service and you will shortly be seeing the tearing up of Union contracts in 3 huge cases, or at least restructuring to see the survivability of those hundreds of thousands of employees, not to mention state governments.
I deeply apologize for that sort of off topic rant, but was my thinking on why the MLB players association would be a non factor when attrition of some sorts finally takes place. Whether or not “round 1” is a serious cut or not of failing teams is the only question IMO.
Edit:
Sorry, forgot to address the NFL and revenue sharing. Ask Cowboys owner Jimmy Jones what he really thinks about it. Of course it would have to be off the record or be hit with a massive fine or speaking the truth.
Thanks for the reply, John.
Assuming that you were talking about the new Marlins park, I agree. I’d have never agreed to pay public money for new park for the Marlins. I’m not completely against public funding of ballparks. But in this case, the marlins have never shows that they have a large degree of local support for the team, as their attendance numbers have never been particularly good. I wouldn’t have put a dime of public money into the new park (except perhaps for some infrastructure costs, i.e. roads, etc.). I think that this was a bad investment.
As for the player’s union, you might be able to force a contraction without their consent, but it would probably require court intervention and would probably require MLB to completely open up all its books … which I’m not sure they’d be willing to do.
I just don’t see contraction as a viable solution simply because I don’t see how the remaining teams and their owners could afford to buy out all of the contracted owners, as well as pay off their financial obligations on all of those fairly new ball parks. Contracting a couple of teams might be do-able. Contracting about half the league only seems doable if the teams declare bankruptcy and are dissolved. And MLB doesn’t seem to be in that big a mess at this point.
Oh, and for Jones, he may wish that he could keep all the Cowboys money for himself. But if that all happened, you’d end up with the NFL starting to look more and more like MLB, which would seem to be disastrous for them.
Take it easy Stalin
Trade Votto for something the Reds dont have. That is SP. The Reds have a strong case for having the best position players in baseball as a group.
I’m already beyond sick of hearing Votto for Bautista or about Votto coming to Toronto at all. I just don’t care that Votto is from here. He’s a great player but I wouldn’t trade for a guy like that when you could pay money for Prince & keep everyone (not that that’s going to happen either).
Jays would never Trade me for Votto.
It just doesn’t add any value to Jays! They can probably get Fielder/Pujols at 1B if they pony up some cash.
Theo needs to go regardless. He has made some good deals and done an amazing job w/ Boston’s farm system, BUT he’s made way too many bad (and expensive) deals over the years for my liking. First, he wasn’t the one that made the Beckett deal, but he has done these: Lackey, Matsuzaka, Wily Mo Pena, Gagne, Penny, Smoltz, Lugo, Drew, Renteria, Piniero, Tazawa, Jeremy Giambi, Cameron, Jenks, Reyes, Hermida, etc. Just saying, it’s time to move on and try something new.
most of those deals you mentioned look like low risk high reward type. Yeah theres a few real ugly ones but that’s what GMs do… Alright they’re really ugly some of them, like wow super unbelievably ugly. But theres a lot of not so bad or you can’t judge it yet kind of deals.
I thought everyone in Boston loved Theo?
Most people realize how good we’ve had it under the current ownership and FO. Michael is probably a relatively new fan who doesn’t remember what it was like before Theo, either that or he really is as fickle as the stereotype of Red Sox fans would have you believe we all are.
Dude every GM has bad moves they make, and most of those were low $$
hi reward except for lackey and drew….. every GM has bad moves, the
yankees have igawa, and AJ, among others
find another team to root for. you have way too many bad opinions
some minor omissions:
curt schilling trade
keith foulke signing
finding david ortiz
ortiz extension
nomar trade
david wells signing
mark bellhorn trade
coco crisp trade, extension
beckett trade, extension
hideki okajima signing
manny/bay trade
pedroia extension
youkilis extension
lester extension
victor martinez trade
billy wagner trade
scutaro signing
adrian beltre signing
saltalamacchia trade
adrian gonzalez trade
aceves signing
buchholz extension
morales trade
bedard trade
i’m sure i’ve missed some goodies and i have said a word about the phenomenal draft & development record his group has earned since 2003
in short, if you don’t respect what epstein has done during his time in boston, your respect isn’t something anyone should care about
Deal for Wily Mo Pena 😉
he already mentioned the missteps; this was a list of all the good things boston drama queens fail to remember
i myself did forget to mention arroyo’s extension though. thanks
ugh we get rid of votto we dont have a good hitter and we need starting pitching. and dont give me that crap that jay bruce is a good hitter he strikes out too much and cant hit LHP for his life
Not intended to be a factual statement?
Jay’s line against lefties this season .242/.322/.497 with 10hrs in 158 Abs. Not great, but definitely not in the “cant hit LHP for his life” area.
Seriously, has he not seen the Mariners offense?
Lets see … when the Reds were in the rumor mill for a rental in Beltran … everyone wanted our top 3 prospects, so I’d have to say teams better be ready to pony up their entire farm system for Votto as a good starting point for Joey lol
francona will be back next season, i doubt the sox let him go, because he is a pretty good manager and there really is no one else that would be good to replace him
Yeah I don’t understand why the Red Sox wouldn’t bring him back? Its not Terry’s fault the 3/5ths of the opening day rotation is on the DL.
exactly my point
It would be a complete gut reaction. I agree with you, I think he does a great job with Boston.
They just got unlucky with injuries at the wrong time and it could end up ending their season sooner than they thought.
I doubt that they will replace Francona, and I think it would take a truly outstanding manager to be an upgrade, but Francona does have some relatively major (or at least painfully aggravating) flaws.
I agree that the chances are good the Tito will be back, though sometimes one may change managers not to get a “better” one, but to get one that that players will listen to, after they’ve tuned-out the prior one.
Funny, I missed the part where 2/5ths became 3/4ths. And of those 2/5ths, 1/5th is Dice-K, who was below average to begin with.
Beckett was on the DL and in September was hurt. Maybe not officially DL’d but you know what I meant.
Dice-K is still better than Andrew Miller or that kid they threw against the Rays on Thursday.
Clay Buchholz is an above-average major league pitcher.
and i edited it to say 3/5ths… typo my bad.
It’s the Red Sox fault they couldn’t compensate for replacing mediocrity in Dice-K. You couldn’t expect five healthy starters an entire season, it doesn’t happen, period. The Yankees lost Hughes for a good chunk of the year and really didn’t miss a step, and that’s with Burnett struggling most of the season too. The Sox don’t have the MLB ready pitching depth they need in the minors and their bandaids like Wakefield and Aceves were either needed elsewhere or ineffective in the rotation.
Your only tough break was losing Buchholz, but every other team in baseball has to endure an injury like that in some respect every season.
^i love when they give away the fact that they just want to start a slap-fight with a red sox fan
don’t want to ruin your fun slugger but the guy you’re talking to named “four_aces”, with a phillies avatar? probably not a sox fan
dont hate….worley could be your no. 2 or 3….whole hell of alot more consistant than lester who can only beat up on the royals of the world
lester vs. AL east
baltimore: 17 starts 2.33 ERA
toronto: 18 starts 3.06 ERA
tampa bay: 19 starts 3.83
new york: 16 starts 3.53 ERA
Careful…making him rub three brain cells together could cause a meltdown
Damn, Lester has just a 3.06 ERA against the Jays? Feels more like 1.06.
i thought the exact same thing
Nobody is giving CC more than what he has left on the Yanks original deal. (92M left)… Yanks should hold strong, he’ll be back.
The yankees can’t afford to lose CC. I could see the Yankees shelling close to 30mm per if it comes down to it. Without him yankees drop down to second maybe even third in the division.
Yea, and noone was going to give Jayson Werth 7/120M+ either. Just off the top of my head so teams with the need and the means to beat CC’s current offer are the Cubs, Rangers, Nationals, and Royals. And don’t laugh at the Royals, they are a couple good SP’s away from being a really scary ballclub.
Yes, I will laugh at the suggestion that the Royals could make such an offer. That’s beyond insane.
The Cubs or Rangers might be able to afford such a deal. I don’t really see the Cubs doing it, mostly because they’ve got enough overpriced players already and really need to start building more from within before going crazy on the FA market. Also, CC might not want to go to a stinky team that doesn’t look they’re going to get markedly better any time soon.
The Rangers might make a little more sense, since they’re in a good position to be a regular playoff contender. And CC would put a stud at the top of their rotation. And the Dallas/FT Worth market is the largest single team market in MLB, so they should be able to afford CC.
I’m going to pretend I’m not reading rumors that make it sound like a real, actual possibility that the Reds trade Votto. Come on.
Sure let’s just get rid of our current face of the franchise and potential Hall of Famer, why not.
its going to happen one day friend.
Your team is about to finish under .500 and you don’t expect changes??? Unless they are able to lock him up to a long term deal why not deal him for some arms.
Alonso is indeed waiting in the wings.
Don’t frett, Votto will leave Reds either this year, next year or 2013.
It will happen, they just can’t have 20Mil stuck with 1 player.
Besides, Alonso can’t play LF and he is being blocked by Votto.
Just my opinion but if I were the Reds, I would look into trading Alonso in a package deal for a top of the rotation starter. Perhaps someone like Shields. They’re not a terrible team and a few changes would put them into contender mode IMO.
But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me if they traded Votto and got back a massive haul.
if they have a lot of faith in alonso, trading votto for a huge haul makes more sense. 1st base isn’t an efficient place for a smaller-market club to build around. but that’s assuming the haul would in fact be huge. with the biggest clubs set at first base and two big 1B names on the free agent market, it might now shake out that way
Sure, but there are some good pieces on that team like Bruce, Philips, Stubbs, Chapman, Cueto, young pitching, top prospect in Mesaraco, Alonso and the best 1st baseman in the game, Joey Votto.
Maybe if they can upgrade their 3rd base and SS, they’re a good team especially when you consider there are players that can breakout/improve next year.
If they do consider trading Votto, they’ll have a tough time getting a good haul since there are many options in the market and teams that have the prospects to get it done like Tampa, Rangers, Yankees, Nationals (?) likely won’t go for it. Not to be a homer but maybe Jays do actually make sense since they need a 1st baseman, have the prospects (though I don’t they match up that well in terms of what Reds need).
I would imagine that even if Brewers and Cards lost their 1st baseman, they likely wouldn’t go after Votto. Maybe the Cards since they do have the prospects.
It will be a tough market if they try to trade him though he will still get tons of interest.
first thing the reds need to do is admit to themselves they got ripped off on the hamilton, volquez trade….then they can move foward
Ryan Browowowown signed with the Brewerz fer like 50yr/6000MM!
hes gone in 2 chief, believe it
As much as I would love Votto in blue, I just don’t think the jays can afford to take such a huge hit to the farm system so soon..
imo it would take Gose, Hechavarria, Drabek or Alvarez, Arencibia or D’arnaud…
thats a steep price.
“To get you must give”
None of these guys are a sure thing while Votto has proven what he’s made of.
You want a first basemen, dish out some prospects.
Plus it sweetens the pot that he’s canadian doesn’t it.
oh don’t get me wrong, I think the reds are well within their sanity to demand such a bounty..
at this point though, I wouldn’t pay it because the jays are not just a votto away from contending.
It makes more sense to fill 1B through FA specially when you have Fielder/Pujols available.
Blue Jays have already stated they have the ability to get their payroll to 100-120Mil range when time is right, this way you retain your prospects.
People might disagree but I think Jays are a legit ace away from being a true contender. That’s where I would my chips in.
I would say they are an ace and a half a way. By that I mean an ace and a middle of the Rotation type of guy.
Travis D’arnaud, Anthony Gose and Kyle Drabek for Roy Halladay?
Heh. Ironic, isn’t it?
pretty much… amazing how none of those players you flipped your biggest trade chip for have made an impact as of yet, and still things in the farm and team are on the up..
I seriously dont know which pitcher to target though… not too many front line starters are available..
2013 free agent pitchers are probably ones more likely to move if there teams dont want to resign them
Haren, Cain, Lariano, Santana, Wolf..
I wouldn’t shed a tear if Beinfest bolts for Chicago. It may just be time to move on.
Diamondbacks/Nationals could be in on Alonso. Might cost Diamondbacks Parker, or the Nationals Peacock.
Trading a stud like Alonso for a peacock may be a bit lopsided.
what??? peacock is gonna be silly good….watch
Hey Selig, do something good for the game and get Loria to sell the Marlins. The guy has done so much to kill the Fish. Now he gives us the story that the Fish want to increase payroll “significantly”, but the catch is that he wants to get more involved. NO LORIA! Look at all that Beinfest, Fleming, and Hill have done with the pittance that Loria gives them. They developed Josh Johnson, Mike Stanton, Logan Morrison, traded for Hanley, Ricky Nolasco, and Anibal Sanchez, just many good players, but always something missing. And Loria tells them, “Whoa guys, I still have a few 18th century pieces I want to add to my collection this year. No way we’re spending that money on a decent closer or third baseman. We have a lot of good guys in the minors, right?” Loria is the worst thing to happen to the Marlins.
i agree….except nunez is a decent closer
James Shields and Ben Zobrist for Votto
Brett Lawrie,Brandon Morrow,Erick Thames for Votto
at this point you can pretty much consider brett lawrie unmovable.
Like it or not Votto will be gone at some point. Reds cannot afford him and he needs to cash in b/c he was not called up early and only has one shot at a massive contract. It just depends on when they deal him. I hope they pull the trigger now. I just dont see this team being a contender UNLESS they commit and get say Reyes and Jamie Shields. They got some good parts but they dont excel at any one area. As showed in this season, it was a mixed bag. Get a good start from Cueto, there is no offense or the bullpen blows it. Score 7 runs but they give up just as many. They need to get some great prospects and hope to develop them although the Front Office has shown an inability at this as well.
It’s either sink or swim in either direction that the FO chooses, but please just pick one.
Please don’t, the one already on your head will be jealous.
Please don’t, the one already on your head will be jealous.
Please don’t, the one already on your head will be jealous.
Sabathia desperately wants to return to Milwaukee. He’s done hanging with Scrooge McDuck and all his internet monies.
That doesn’t even qualify as a rumor, that is Rosenthal speculating and making it appear that he heard something from the inside.Ring…Ring…. “Hey Walt it’s the Rockies GM ….just inquiring on what Kenny said. “Walt “Sure….give me Tulo and …” Click.There it is….. the Reds just listened to another team “Inquiring” about Votto.The Reds don’t HAVE to move Votto. They can CHOOSE to move Votto, if the haul is enormous. Kind of like what TB was reported to want for Shields…similar situation.Make teams overpay to get the reigning MVP.Unless there was a Bartolo Colon-like return, I’d keep him for 2012.He will still fetch a lot after next season, and I think they owe it to the fan base to go for it in 2012. If they’re out of it at the deadline, they can then look to deal Votto for a big package.