Earlier this morning, we heard about Boston's reluctance to go over the luxury tax threshold this season. Now let's round up a few more Sunday's Red Sox updates….
- The Red Sox plan to stretch out Daniel Bard's innings this spring, writes Michael Vegas of the Boston Globe. "I'm going to go into spring training saying 'whatever's best for the team,'" said manager Bobby Valentine. "But he's going to get innings as a starter would in spring training. He's going to be penciled in to be one of those guys who works going from his bullpen to pitching two innings to pitching four innings to pitching six innings."
- Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports advises the Red Sox to blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender.
- Within Rosenthal's piece, he adds that Marco Scutaro is drawing interest from the Rockies, among other teams.
- The Red Sox continue to discuss the possibility of a two-year deal with David Ortiz, GM Ben Cherington told Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald.
So easy to spend other peoples’ money, isn’t it Ken?
cargo for scutaro and josh reddick, and another prospect
Really?
If by Cargo you meant Baseball supplies , then sure.
you spelled seth smith wrong
lol
Carlos Gonzalez
They knew who you were referring to… hence the ridicule.
Sox fan perhaps?
Sox-hater perhaps? They’re soooo much better.
IF that deal was given to the Red Sox, Cargo would be in Fenway and most Rockies fans would be rioting.
im a red sox fan not rockies, i wouldn’t do it if i were the rockies gm
The worst thing the Red Sox could do to is give Ortiz a 2 year deal. You don’t tie that much money into a “36 year old” DH.
You do when they give you 30+ HR every years and 100+ RBIs.
Last year he started going the other way more (Probably due to A-Gon), so expect it more in the coming year. I’ll take Big Papi over any other D.H. out there.
In 2010 Vladimir Guerrero hit .300/.345/.496 with 29 home runs & 119 RBI — he then proceeded to hit .290/.317/.416 with 13 home runs & 63 RBI in 2011.
Ortiz is possibly 36, but most likely earlier, has been inconsistent the past 4 years — but he has 1 really good year & you think that’s how he’s going to hit next year?
You don’t tie that much money into a DH. Period. Especially one with a questionable history with steroids, a questionable age & who can’t play the field.
…unless you’re the Red Sox and can afford to do so.
… Except they don’t want to go over the luxury cap.
… Except they don’t want to go over the luxury cap.
Except when giving him a 2 year deal instead of $14-16 million in arbitration actually gives you more $$$ to play with before you hit the luxury tax threshold.
He wants a 2/25 deal. He doesn’t deserve 2/20, let alone 2/25.
So what, they’re going to save 2 million? Yup, that’s really going to help them with the rest of their needs.
A couple million here and a couple million there and pretty soon you have some real money.
In 2010 David Ortiz hit .270/.370/.529 with 32 home runs & 102 RBI — he then proceeded to hit .309/.398/.554 with 29 home runs & 96 RBI in 2011.
What’s your point? Vlad got worse but Papi had a typical year? Yes, Ortiz is 36. Next year he will be 37. The year after that? 38. So? Have you taken into account that Ortiz suffered a wrist injury in 2008 that might have affected his play and the way he slumped in 2009 at the beginning of the season? Since he rediscovered his stroke in June of 2009, Papi has been nothing but consistant. Look at his production since he joined the Red Sox and take into account his injury history and I think giving him a 2 year contract is one of the safest bets, contract wise, in baseball.
MOST teams don’t tie that much money up in a DH. The Red Sox aren’t like MOST teams. They are perennial contenders who can afford a huge payroll. Papi has, theoretically been steroid free for many years according to MLB’s testing program. Age is irrelevant, performance is what actually counts, and Papi can play first base altho not at an exceptional level.
Pay the man. Hopefully, pay the man for several more years if he continues to perform the way we have been spoiled to expect.
The Red Sox have a first baseman who they aren’t going to take out during inter league play for Ortiz.
Yes, Ortiz’s age is relevant to his performance. Someone’s age always is.
Vladimir Guerrero is an example of a player who got up there in age, had a really good year & then followed it up by having a bad year.
And again, right now the Red Sox have bigger issues than an aging DH. Locking that much money into a DH when they have other issues and Don’t want to go over the luxury cap is idiotic.
First of all, while I agree that Ortiz probably will play little first base this year, players get hurt all of the time. To say that just because the Sox have AGon (and Youk) to play 1st base means that those guys won’t get hurt, well, you have a better crystal ball than I have.
Say it with me… age doesn’t matter, performance matters. I would rather have a 45 year old that can crush the ball on a regular basis than have a 25 year old that whiffs every time that they aren’t hitting into double plays. Wouldn’t you?
David Ortiz is an example of a player who had a decent year and followed it up by having a great year. Your point? Last I checked, Vlad and Papi are different people, aren’t they?
Last but not least, the Red Sox have a large payroll. Ortiz is going to be making roughly the same amount as JD Drew did last year and has a much better bat. We have the money to afford him. Pay the man.
It isn’t Papi’s fault that Theo decided to blos a huge wad of cash on Lackey. Or DiceK. Or Crawford.
It isn’t like going over the luxury tax threshold will cause Fenway to implode. DiceK’s contract will be done next year. Scutaro, Youk, and Danks will also be eligible for free agency and should hopefully be able to be replaced with cheaper players. We can afford to pay Big Papi 12.5 million a year for 2 years and we should do it to keep a hugely productive, middle of the order, crushes the Yankees, bat in our lineup for the next 2 years.
Well said. Agree 100%. I’m amazed at how many people dis Papi, but his numbers are there. Yes he is overpaid. I’ll give commenter3346 that. And I believe he should take 2/20 which is well paid for a DH. I absolutely love Vlad (been a fan since he was with the Expos). Problem with Vlad is his knees are bad from all the Astro-turf he played on (Olympic Stadium). David can still move pretty good around the bases for a big guy. That’s why I would still put my money on Papi, instead of Vlad. That’s why Vlad doesn’t get the money like Papi does.
The worst thing the Sox can do is bring back Ortiz. They should of invested his $ in Beltran. Beltran could of been the DH and RH RF Bat. I love Papi but if it is time to retool and spend more wisely spending 3/4 of our off-season budget on a one dimensional guy is not smart.
That’s ridiculous, Beltran hasn’t played a full season since 2009. Did you not watch Papi last year at all?
Did you watch him in 2009?
Sure I did, I saw him hit .325…you mean 3 years ago?
Did you watch Ortiz in 2007? Did you watch him last year?
He hit .238 for one (.238/.332/.462).
And yes, I saw him in ’07 & last year. But that doesn’t mean next year he won’t be like he was in ’09. He’s “36” which means any year he could just stop hitting and we’ve all seen what that looks like — and it’s not pretty. You don’t guarantee that person more years than one because of that. You go year by year. The Rangers knew when to let Vlad go, the Red Sox have to know that too. They’ve failed miserably with knowing when to let Varitek & Wakefield go though, so why should this be any different.
Please look at Varitek’s numbers and find me a better backup catcher who calls as good of a game as Tek does. Please look at what we pay Wakefield and find me as versatile of a pitcher who is available for anywhere near the amount we pay Wake. The Sox kept these guys because they are still very productive players who were inexpensive and that allowed them to waste the money they saved on guys like Lackey and Crawford.
Yes the worst thing they could do is bring back a player like Ortiz. They should of went after Beltran…jesus.
That was not his point. His point was that the Red Sox do not want to go over Lux and by signing Ortiz who will only be a DH the Sox put themselves in a pickle with $$$$ and finding other pieces that they need more than Papi.
I don’t think the Sox should fool around with Bard going into spring training not knowing whether he is starting or relief, and I don’t think its smart to give Ortiz a 2 year contract when you have Lavernway in the wings.
hahah lavarnway in the wings
More like it’s not smart when you have Youkilis breaking down at 3rd.
Really… he played pretty good at the hot corner. And didn’t he make the All Star team last year?
He’s much better at 1st than 3rd, Beltre and A-Rod are much better All-Stars.
That too!
Ken Rosenthal…..advises the Red Sox to blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that’s what it takes to field a World Series contender.
Signing John Lackey, Adrian Gonzalez (trading then contract extension) and others worked out like a charm, right Kenny? This is the line of the day, for sure! Maybe, the Red Sox could trade for Robert Andino and go get Bruce Chen to shore up the rotation! Brilliant! World Series or Bankruptcy!
rosenthal draws the reason for his existence from rear-kissing the yankees and red sox. what a bum!
Rosenthal rear kissing the Red Sox? Yes. Rear kissing the Yankees? No way. Kicking the Yankees’ asses whenever possible? You bet.
Rosenthal: Yankees spend money = Evil Empire and ruining baseball
Red Sox spending money = Go, go, go. Hip, hip, hooray.
He was very queit after the collapse.
You saying the Gonzalez deal was not a good one for the Red Sox?
I will give you an honest answer. I haven’t been that impressed by his play. He doesn’t seem to come thru when, he is needed.
You mean his .303/.452/.409 line with 2 outs and RISP?
You mean his .337/.441/.483 line with RISP?
Yeah. What a bust. Especially when there are men on base for him to drive in.
27 HR, 117 RBI, .337 BA, and a .957 OPS, all while playing with a shoulder that is coming off surgery and a slight neck injury. He’s definitely worthy of mention with names like John Lackey.
Dude. Seriously??
yeah but Lefty won’t be happy until he hit’s 1.00 with 660 5-run HRs, even then he’d be like “Yeah, he’s pretty good”
I’m by no way a Sox fan but I knew AGon would rake in AL East going from the most pitcher friendly division. Looking at what Pujols just got, the AGon deal was a STEAL.
“Looking at what Pujols just got, the AGon deal was a STEAL.” I know Boston has so many nightmares to deal with right now, they are trying to sell themselves on that. It’s a dumb argument anyway. They’re both great players, but I’ll contend that this argument is better to be had in 7 years, when Pujols has three years remaining on contract, not now. For $3mm more per year, I’d rather have Pujols and dollar for dollar the brand and marketing revenues will far exceed Gonzalez’s value in Boston. People want to argue who has the better deal, it’s actually the Angels, present day. We can argue all we want, until we’re blue in the face, but let’s put this on the burner until 2018.
He hit .338 with 27hr and 117 RBIs. How is that not coming through?
Do you not watch baseball?
Do you even watch baseball?
Without citing any stats (I’m too lazy to look them up), I am sure his clutch stats are up there. In the middle of the season, it seemed like whenever someone was on base, Gonzo would drive them home by whatever means…whether it’s a home run, double, or a lucky single. I was constantly saying “no way he does it again”, but then boom, he does it again.
The 117 RBI are a mirage…
Are you serious? This is a joke right? I got it. Good one.
You can’t ney say the signing of A-gone, not at all. Lackey ofcourse but Gonzo is one of the best hitters in baseball and his numbers keep climbing.
Not to mention the effect he has had on Oriz. I have never seen Ortiz go the other way some many times.
With Aceves and Bard going to the rotation, what’s left in the bullpen? Albers, Wheeler, and perhaps Michael Bowden, Felix Doubront, Atchison, and Jenks…? I’d love to see Bowden and Doubront up with the big club full time, but Cherington’s got work to do.
Doubront has no more options left, so he’ll most likely be there next year.
Bowden, Doubront, Weiland, Wilson, and possibly even Tazawa could all be added to the ‘pen next year.
I hadn’t heard Ace was moving to the rotation.
There’s been some talk about it but nothing anywhere near official.
Big mistake, Ace and Bard haven’t pitched enough innings to go into the rotation.
Neither had Wilson or Ogando when they made the transition, neither has Feliz and he’s making the transition, neither had Santana before he made the transition. That’s the nature of moving someone from the ‘pen to the rotation.
You likely can’t have two guys in that situation at the same time, so I’m sure only one or the other will end up in the rotation (or possibly still neither), but having one guy who is on an innings limit isn’t that big of a deal.
So, would it be safe to say Bard will not be their closer? Intensifying their efforts to Madson (or another closer) perhaps?
Probably will overpay for Bailey
I don’t think it’s safe to say that Bard wont be the closer. I’d actually say it’s still more likely than him ending up as a starter.
MaineSox, I think it’s MUCH more likely that Bard is a closer/reliever than a starter. And Aceves, too… But talking about him starting and saying you’re preparing him/them to start may help to make the team seem less desperate in trade negotiations and possibly with free agent pitchers.
I agree, but I do think they are serious about giving him a shot like they did with Pap a few years back; ultimately I think he stays in the ‘pen though.
It wont be Madson, not unless he comes off the number the Phillies offered to him and yanked back. Boras wont let that happen.
Boras might not have a choice. Can you really think of any team likely to give him more than three guaranteed years at this point? The only teams left on the market who are looking for a closer are the Sox, Reds and maybe Angels. The Reds are indicating they’re of the mind to solve it internally and the Angels just spent a boatload on Wilson and Pujols and are unlikely to spend significant money on Madson.
He doesn’t even really have the option of going the Soriano route as who’s going to pay him more than three years to set up?
There’s always the outside chance someone will overpay for Madson, but at this point this is looking like a Beltre in 2009/10 situation. Boras waited too long for the market to develop only to see it disappear.
At this point, I can’t see Madson getting more than 3/$30MM and that’s a stretch. I think 3/$24MM is looking realistic.
Valentine’s 1st BIG mistake with Bard. As a Rays fan I love it. Ole Bobby “Tommy John Surgery” Valentine.
It’s not Bobby Valentine’s decision. If Bard is moved to the rotation it’s because Cherington and the front office want him there.
I can probably disagree with that statement.
You can disagree with any statement.
Scary thought!
Not really, that’s just the way it works. It’s the front office’s job to fill out the roster and the manager’s job to do what he can with it. If the front office gets two starters Bard wont be going to the rotation, if they only get one someone from within the organization will be filling the other spot.
This is the same front office that let Tito and Theo go who were considered the top of their field.
And?
Most acters and actresses do not like to be type cast in one role in the belief it restricts their careers. Certainly Aceves and Bard feel that way……the starters usually get the big bucks… So Valentine is smart to say that he will give these guys a shot at the rotation in ST….
being successful at any position in baseball will get you paid.
Sox should announce Bard is their closer and trade for a starter. Lots of teams are dangling back of the rotation arms. There is maybe 2 options for the Red Sox better than Bard.
I would be more concerned with finding a replacement for Papelbon a getting another good starter. The reason they are looking to Bard is because they are not sure of him as a closer, and need a starter. It’s a Joba move by the Sox.
They don’t trust him for one inning as a closer, so they want him to transition to pitching 6-7 as a starter? Makes perfect sense…
More likely, they realize that the best closers in baseball are only as valuable as a true-talent 4.00 ERA starter.
You can tell me that when your closer is blowing saves the Papelbon would have made. If they thought Bard was a starter why did the best team in baseball last year on paper have Bard in the 8th inning. I’ll tell you why, thats where he belongs. This is a panic move.
You’re ridiculous, Bard is an outstanding reliever and would (and I still think probably will) make a great closer. If they didn’t trust him for one inning at the end of a game, there is no way they would try to move him to an unnatural situation and count on him for 6-7 innings at the beginning of them game.
If they really didn’t trust him they would get two starters and a closer and leave him in the 8th inning; that’s the one thing they haven’t said they would do. They’ve literally already told him he’s either a starter of the closer.
Starter or closer are completely different. Plus he is going into a position he has never been in before. Most starters throw 175 plus innings a year. You don’t go from the eighth inning to starter that easy. Most pitchers his age increase innings by 25 per season. Have you ever herd of the Verducci effect. He didn’t look like a great closer pitching in the 8th inning last Sept.
Dude, again, that’s the way it is with moving relievers to the rotation; they have to have their pitch counts built up, but people do it (Wilson, Ogando, Feliz, Santana, Lowe…), so that’s not a reason not to do it.
The Verducci effect is flawed at best, and it applies to pitchers 25 and under anyway (Bard will turn 27 next year). Obviously he will be on an innings limit but it wont be the 30 additional innings that Verducci suggests.
“If they thought Bard was a starter why did the best team in baseball last year on paper have Bard in the 8th inning.”
Because we had five viable starters going into the season.
1-5, we left ST with Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Beckett and Matsuzaka as our projected rotation.
Lackey had a relatively strong second half of 2010 and Matsuzaka had the stuff to perform, so there was no reason to convert Bard to a starter just to serve as depth.
Lackey basically fell apart and Matsuzaka didn’t go in for TJ surgery until June. That late in the season, converting Bard into a starter was not an option.
This year, we currently have Lester, Buchholz and Beckett penciled into the rotation. Matsuzaka will likely be ready by the ASB at about the absolute earliest and Lackey will almost certainly miss the entire season. With Matsuzaka off the books after this coming season, we’ll need to fill a fifth spot next year as well, so we won’t have to worry about what to do with Bard next year should he be converted to a starter.
Considering this year’s starting pitching market was absolutely terrible, there’s really not much out there that’s odds on to give us better performance than Bard, so it’s a viable option. They’ll probably go with a bunch of ST invites and see how Bard does. If no one definitively outperforms him as a starter, he’ll stay in the bullpen.
The Red Sox have big problems. Their rotation is as follows:
Beckett (never does 2 good years in a row)
Lester (doesnt go deep into games. Throws too many pitches)
Buchholz (health)
Lackey (out for season. Paying him 15 million to play golf in Ft Myers)
Dice-K (out until August at least. After that who knows. Paying him 10 mil)
Wake? Doubrant? Weiland?
So they have 3 mlb ready starters. That leaves at least 2 more spots in the rotation not to mention any sort of depth when one of these guys breaks a fingernail.
Their payroll is around 170 with the team as is leaving around 8 million to spend before hitting the luxury tax. Ken Rosenthal is right. They have to blow it away or they wont have enough decent pitchers to make it through the 1st half of the season let alone the playoffs.
Thats why they are in on Darvish, posting fees dont count towards Lux tax. I expect Darvish’s top post to be the Red Sox at around $40 million or more. Then they can hammer out some deal that fits under the Lux tax for 2012 and beyond.
“Beckett (never does 2 good years in a row)”
Josh Beckett’s 2007-2009 FIP- 3.08, 3.24, 3.60.
That’s three years in a row of great performance. Beckett having back issues during the 2008 postseason and Lester’s phenomenal 2008 overshadowing his performance seem to make people forget that Beckett actually had a great 2008.
“Lester (doesnt go deep into games. Throws too many pitches)”
Lester’s average 6+ IP per start every year since his first full season in 2008. Last year was the first time he failed to manage 200 IP.
“Buchholz (health)”
And last year it was regression. He regressed, but he was still one of the best #3 starters in the MLB. Buchholz is as good of a #3 candidate as most teams have.
“Doubrant? Weiland?”
Wake is off the table, he almost certainly won’t be brought back. Doubront is unlikely, he’s pretty much a full time reliever. Our depth is thin, admittedly, but Wilson can be added to the mix by mid-season. Assuming Bard is converted to a starter and we pick up at least one viable option as a non-tender or trade, our depth past #5 will likely be Weiland, Wilson, Atchison (Should he retained), Duckworth, Tazawa, Balcom-Miller (If we’re desperate). Not exactly enviable depth, but honestly, our depth 6-11 is probably better than last year thanks to Wilson’s advancement and Tazawa being further removed from TJ surgery.
“Their payroll is around 170 with the team as is leaving around 8 million to spend before hitting the luxury tax. Ken Rosenthal is right. They have to blow it away or they wont have enough decent pitchers to make it through the 1st half of the season let alone the playoffs. ”
And what do you propose they acquire to blow past the luxury tax? Oswalt’s still available, but him wanting a 3 year deal less than a year after talking retirement scares me away from that one. Past him, well there’s nothing really worth going over the luxury tax for.
All the best options available are available via trade or non-tender, which means lower likelihood of surpassing the luxury tax.
It might not hurt for them to hire a pitching coach and get his input on these starting/relief issues, considering he’ll be the one handling these guys, but why sweat the small stuff.
depending on Jed Lowrie’s injured body is not that bright