Michael Pineda will miss the rest of the season to undergo and recover from arthroscopic shoulder surgery. The injury weakens the Yankees for the current season and creates questions about what the 23-year-old will contribute long-term. Here are the latest links regarding the Yankees and their pitching staff…
- The Yankees were looking forward to strong pitching performances from Pineda at reasonable salaries that would help keep the team's payroll beneath the $189MM luxury tax threshold, Joel Sherman of the New York Post writes. Yankees GM Brian Cashman says he regrets the injury, but not his team's decision-making process. “The deal we did I would do that ten times out of ten,” Cashman told Sherman.
- Andy Pettitte's return is suddenly much more vital to the Yankees, Sherman notes. The left-hander pitched five innings at Double-A Trenton last night, allowing three earned runs.
- John Harper of the New York Daily News says it's not reasonable or fair to blame Cashman for Pineda's shoulder injury. The Yankees evaluated the right-hander's elbow and shoulder carefully at the time of the trade and his arm seemed fine. "He was strong as a bull in resistance testing," Cashman said.
- Harper points out that scouts and executives liked the Pineda-Jesus Montero trade for the Yankees back in January.
Brace yourself for hindsight bias Yankee fans. If Jesus Montero has a good year, Uncle Murray will make your ears bleed.
And my wife (who is a Mariners fan) will make my ears bleed
And, as always, a few of us will point out once again that the word “hindsight” is only operative if we hadn’t said it was a bad trade at the time, too — in this case because Cash was ignoring the now (hopefully) forever-after unignorable Verducci Effect.
Short-tempered and verbose know-it-all.
I agree.
Verducci or your wife?
Inverted W – and BTW Verducci got a large portion of “WHY” wrong.
So far montero hasn’t looked that sharp. In the minors he had a lot of k’s and they really seem to be catching up to him so far in the ml
anyone who thinks the Yanks did not do a through exam of Pineda , is so misguided.
Of course they did .
Pineda has to take part of the blame here. He came into camp 20 pounds overweight and out of shape. This is no longer acceptable. ST is not the time for a pitcher to have to lose that extra weight. it is time for him to build up arm strength and stamina . He also had to compete for a spot , so he was over -throwing to try to get his velocity back to impress the organization.
It is just rotten luck this happened. Yankee fans should be more concerned about the lack of performance of Hughes than Pineda.
You may be look at a bust in Hughes. At 25, the organization and the fans have been waiting 7 years for Hughes to develop.Pineda just turned 23.
I completely agree.
But I’ve thought of Hughes as a bust for the last 5 years.
How can the Yankees have done this incredibly thorough evaluation job and missed the Verducci Effect? Missed the fact that Pineda’s velocity was a straight, downward-sloping line all of last year? Missed the fact that his OOBP was higher in every single start after the All-Star Break? I’ll tell you how: They didn’t. It was a bad trade the day they made it, some of us said so, and now the narrative in here is that anyone who says it now is being revisionist.
The Verducci Effect is overblown. Sure we can point out a case here and there where it rang true, but here are a few other recent Verducci Effect guys:
Felix Hernandez
Madison Bumgarner
Cy Kershaw
David Price
Quoting the verducci effect as gospel is sort of ridiculous.
As to the “straight, downwad sloping line”… link to fangraphs.com hmmm… not so much?
If you didn’t like the trade, thats fine, but don’t try to make up reasons why.
Inverted @a33af05e057f334bee1e5099dc45c641:disqus – Rule of thumbs of what is an allowable increase in innings pitched is great (and the Veducci effect is the extreme short-hand of that)…. BTW it was 32 innings pitched increase. Is there really the same threshold for all pitchers?
But what if they guy has good mechanics? Can you bump him up?
What if the guy throws a high percentage of Fastballs and Change-ups? Can you increase the innings pitched then?
What if the guy has bad mechanics, throws 32% Sliders? What is the allowable increase then?
It was more bad mechanics then anything in my book.
# of innings isn’t the best evaluator. If he had thrown the same amount of pitches but only hit a bump of 25 innings would that mean he is way less likely to be injured.
It is all about how many pitches and how stressful they are.
Somewhat agree, you must take a weighted scale for each type of pitch thrown and with what mechanics the pitcher has.
In a vacuum if you say a fastball would count as 1 pitch, then something like a slider could count as 1.5 pitches in a pitch count. And then scale a starters pitchcount to 115 or 120.
If he threw the same amount of pitches but threw 20% more sliders is that the same as if he threw the same amount of pitches and the same %? So if there’s a 25 inning bump with a bump of 400 pitches for both Stephen Strasburg and for Roy Halladay its the same amount of risk? And yes the amount of 25+ pitchcounts in an innings does contribute to injuries, along with 110+ pitchcounts starts. There really is too much to take into account, but its funny how the extreme inverted W guys can’t pitch more then 3 years without sometype of major injury / big drop in velocity.
i will say the yankees signed feliciano…
23 years old and undergoing shoulder surgery? Hope for him he can regain his old self. Great make up and has ace written all over him.
I still like the trade. granted it meant giving away one of our best hitting prospects but all in all was a good trade. he may have been healthy at the time of the trade and a shoulder or elbow injury can happen at any point when throwing a ball. Pineda will be back next year and ready to go. hughes im not going with anymore. i was giving him the benefit of the doubt during the off season that last year was just a injury ridden year for him, but now theres no excuse. time to get rid of him. and why the heck did they sign Garcia over Colon? Colon is pitching great up there in oakland. Garcia is pitching well worst then hughes to be exact. i dont even think he has a win under his belt this year. thank god pettitte is coming back.
Back next year ready to go? Really? Chris Young? Chien-Ming Wang? Johan Santana? This is a very serious injury. Some pitchers never make it back. Many that do are never the same. Most of the time, you are looking at at least a year and a half if not two… Santana had the surgery in September 2010 and just made it back…
Don’t forget Anibal Sanchez. Torn labrum as well and took him quite a while to come back and be effective.
Sanchez tore his rotator cuff…
Dustin Mcgowan has missed the better part of 4 seasons
He tore rotater
Yes it was a good trade. But must deal with it now. If I was Cash, I’d be calling Theo and try to get Dempster or Garza
if you were cash, what would you be willing to give up for either? demps prolly gonna be significantly cheaper than garza.
Demps would just be a salary pickup. Around 10-12M
Garza would be Romine, Betances, and say Campos. If the Yanks throw in Campos the Cubs could include Marmol.
Well a Dempster trade requires Dempster’s permission since he has 10-5 rights. As for Garza, considering the reported price tag over the winter I doubt Theo has any intention of trading Garza unless it’s for an obscene price tag.
considering the cubs have plenty of salary room along with demps current performance, I’m sorry to disappoint you but the Cubs hold all the leverage in that situation. There’s just no need to trade dempster.
as far as romine and betances, well regardless of betances prospect ranking, he’s getting a little old to have yet to excel at a high minor league level so he might just end being a bust and it’s not that much of a stretch so see him as one. and romine, well welington castillo is looking much better and closer to being ML ready so we might not consider him a shining beacon of hope for being our future catcher. campos is interesting but certainly not with marmol included. and I’m basing this on the offseason asking price for garza. I’m sure theo knows that at this point the yanks are desperate for SP and he can get a better package than that.
Cashman’s record at selecting pitchers is simply horrible. Signing CC was a no-brainer. Look at his track record–Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright, not trading Hughes or Chamberlain to get Roy Halliday, Kyle Farnsworth, LaTroy Hawkins, Chris Hammond…I could go on and on. It is time the Steinbrenner boys employ the Costanza method (another Yankee employee from days gone by)…If he decides something regarding pitching ALWAYS DO THE OPPOSITE!!
That was the first thing I pointed to when the Yankees made that trade. I said, you could have thrown Joba in there, never looked back, and Roy Halladay would be a New York Yankee for 20MM a year instead of a Philly. Same goes for Johan Santana, which in hindsight looks like a bad move, but at the time it looked like a no-brainer. Then they basically give Montero away for Pineda? I was quite confused myself.
So…release CC, Nova, Kuroda, Pettitte, and the entire Yankees bullpen?
As I said CC was a no-brainer–simply outspend everybody. Pettitte were pre-Cashman–both signed when Gene Michaeal was around. Kuroda? Let’s see if he’s worth the $10 Million. Nova–yes, while Cashman had Joba playing around with the “rules” that were a joke look at Nova’s innings. Perhaps the same type of hands-off treatment on Joba might have paid more dividends. Soriano wasn’t his decision so whatever happens there, good or bad, is a Hank Steinbrenner decision. Robertson is obviously one that came up through the Yankee system. Meanwhile Betances looks like another overhyped “bust in training”.
Let’s face it–his record is not a good one when it comes to pitching. More often than not, when the Yanks have faltered in the playoffs during the Cashman era it is because the starting pitching fell apart in the playoffs. Who takes the blame for that when the payroll is higher than anyone else’s?
The starting didnt fall apart in the playoffs why dont you look at the numbers. And it wasnt a joke that nova had more a leash he already built up his arms in the minors and didnt need any rules.
Yes, I have looked at the numbers–have you??
2006 playoffs: Mussina: 5.14 ERA, Jaret Wright: 10.13 ERA, Randy Johnson: 7.14 ERA, Wang: 4.05 ERA;
2007 Playoffs: Clemens: 11.57 ERA, Wang: 19.06 ERA (2 starts for him in a 5 game series)
2010 Playoffs vs. Texas: Burnett: 7.50 ERA, Hughes: 11.42 ERA, CC: 6.30 ERA
You can also look at Johnson’s 6.14 ERA in 2005 against the Angels, Mussina’ 5.40, and Small’s 6.75 as pretty weak numbers as well.
Nova’s minor league innings are still innings–What, do you throw the ball any slower because it is against AAA or AA players?
Cashman is a horrible judge of pitching talent and it is about time that he listens to someone who is superior in that area.
Obviously, he knew more than the Yankee fans who were BEGGING him to give up either Hughes or Chamberlain to go get Roy Halliday.
Whats with the Yankees screwing up young pitchers? I almost feel like Campos is going to get screwed up down in the minors the way the Yankees develop pitchers. Hughes,Joba and those 2 over rated prospects in Betances and Banuelos.
Jim Bowden said it best on MLB Network Radio on XM this morning.
It’s not so much this deal in particular that irks me about the Yankees ability to scout pitchers (and not necessarily just Cashman), it’s their awful track record with young pitchers. He asked for fans to name two starters that the Yankees had developed in the last 12 years. No one had an answer besides Nova.
While this one may have been flat out bad luck, I don’t necessarily think you can give Cash a pass for this one. Joba project failed. Hughes project failed. Betances and Banuelos suddenly don’t look as wonderful as they once did. His signings have been atrocious from Jaret Wright to Pavano to Burnett… The list goes on and on. How about the Vazquez reunion that everyone knew was going to fail?
As a Boston Red Sox fan, I’m trying to take as unbiased a look at this as I can, and I can’t say Theo’s track record was much better. But that’s why he’s in Chicago now. However, at least he can say, “Hey! I got Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester signed to team friendly contracts!” Cash still hasn’t locked up Nova to my knowledge. No idea why. The guys’ already on his third good season!
well the Buckholtz deal isnt looking too great right now, so besides Lester, the Red sox cant boast much either. Nova is solid, but the man gets a ridiculous amount of run support, and isnt exactly lights out like Bucholtz and Lester were before they got their contracts.
Ok here u go wang, kennedy, karstens, happy now? And nova has been the league for ayr a 3 weeks…
That $12M for Buccholz in 2014 is now lulzworthy.
Theo is absolutely no better than Cashman when it comes to young pitching. In fact, given the bullpen, he could be considered worse.
Can’t fault the Buccholz 12M in 2014 as at the time of the deal it was viewed as a bargain. This is why many players tend to go the “team friendly” deal route. As if they get injured they will still get paid. Anyway I always hate to see players get hurt and hopefully Pineda will be back to what we saw in the first half of last year sometime in his career. If not then at least the M’s also included another potential number 1/2 pitcher in Campos who was one of my favorite players in the M’s minor leagues last year and he has been doing great thus far in the Yankees system.
Can’t really fault Cashman here…the Yankees did put Pineda through a lot of tests to ensure that they were not receiving damaged goods.
Agree with you. Is Oswalt counting his money yet?
I won’t pretend to know the odds of Pineda coming back at full strength but I think the simple fact that he’s 23 is a big strength for him. However, I think another big point is something someone else pointed out, he showed up to ST overweight. So one has to think he at least needs to be motivated.