The Red Sox signed Rich Hill to a minor league contract on this date in 2010. The 32-year-old southpaw reinvented himself as a reliever with low arm slot and has held left-handed hitters to a .140/.260/.209 batting line with Boston while batting numerous elbow injuries (including Tommy John surgery). Here are some links from Beantown…
- The Red Sox will have some roster decisions to make once they start getting players back from injury, writes Peter Abraham of The Boston Globe. Boston could have as many as seven healthy starting pitchers and nine healthy outfielders shortly after the All-Star break.
- Trading Marco Scutaro to free up cash to sign Cody Ross has worked out wonderfully for the Sox, writes WEEI.com's Alex Speier. Ross is hitting .277/.345/.578 with 12 homers after signing a one-year, $3MM contract this offseason.
- Daniel Bard has struggled as a reliever in Triple-A and both CBSSports.com's Danny Knobler and Kirk Minihane of WEEI.com wonders if the failed starting pitching experiment could have long-term ramifications. Boston has not yet missed Bard in its bullpen this season, however.
- Nick Cafardo of The Boston Globe muses about Felix Hernandez being a fit for the Red Sox, suggesting that Northwest natives Jon Lester and Jacoby Ellsbury would make sense for the Mariners. Just to be clear, this isn't an actual trade or rumor being discussed, just Cafardo thinking out loud.
Really? Really we JUST NOW are thinking that MAYBE the starting nonsense has potentially irreparably damaged Daniel Bard???
Exactly! These hair brained ideas about converting relievers to starters is ridiculous. The first example is Bard,although the way he pitched last September, he may never pitch well again. Smjardga,or whatever his name is, on the Cubs. He was an effective reliever last year,and after a couple of good starts, he is getting pounded. The kid in Texas. Great closer, not so good starter with a sore arm. Can only hope that Morales will be the exception.
Well, Morales had been a starter, so he has a basis for it. But yeah, it works sometimes, but sheesh.
Gottta get a kick out of Alex writing that the dumpng of Scutaro “freed up money” for Ross…Come on..like the Red Sox really need to free up money to get a player.
Well they kind of did, since they’re really committed to staying near the cap
That’s easy to say in retrospect, but the number of times it has been attempted without any lasting effects (whether they stick as a starter or not) far outweighs the number of times it ends up hurting a guy long-term. Isn’t a bit early to be saying that anyway?
Plus, all of these issues started back in September of last year, so it’s impossible to say that they even have anything to do with him trying to become a starter.
Personally, I was against it the whole time. I thought Aceves and Bard should’ve been swapped to start off the season. Who knows how things might’ve gone.
That’s fine, but even if you were suggesting that it would mess him up long term at the time, it was a silly thing to suggest (even if it turns out to be true – it would be like suggesting pinch hitting Punto for Ortiz, even if it works out it was the wrong call) because there isn’t a track record of it working out that way.
I just took more of an “if it ain’t broke…” approach during the offseason. And I’m not necessarily saying that Bard has been wrecked forever and ever, but there are some Yankees pitchers to whom one could draw some chilling comparisons…
Haha very funny Felix isn’t for trade.
Nah don’t trade him, just lose him in free agency and get nothing in return.
You assume he will leave.
Nick Cafardo might as well write a piece describing a situation in which he wins a $600 million lottery, then Erin Andrews, Sofia Vergara and Gisele Bundchen have their way with him. Because there’s a better chance of that scenario playing out then any of these insane lopsided trades that Red Sox pundits suggest when their team is struggling. He might as well say “what if MLB just gave us the World Series and pretended we totally earned it as the best team ever…?”
Not only is it a lopsided trade but its just plain ridiculous! Ellsbury is a great outfielder and Lester is a decent pitcher but it still doesn’t make sense for the Mariners. Why would the Mariners downgrade their amazing young ace they have signed over the next few years to Jon Lester? And then to get Ellsbury for what, a year and a half? You know for sure that Boras would lead him to free agency and get a ridiculous contract with the highest bidder … is that going to be the Mariners? Even with compensation picks… just wow, Cafardo.
Boston has SP depth anyway.. Why bother going out and giving up what Hernandez is really worth anyway?
Send the mariners Matsuzaka. He can team up with Vargas and form a horrible duet to round out the back end of their rotation. Seattle already got a taste of the Sox #6-7 starter last night in Cook and managed 2 hits over 9IP..
Matsuzaka is the one whose time has/needs to finally come to an end.. 6 years of pure misery. Even Cook may be better overall. Stick him back on the phantom DL, or banish him to the NL, where he might be a mediocre (at best) SP.
I like how everybody thinks pitching in the NL is SOOOO much easier.
Any league that gives away an out letting the pitchers hit puts themselves at a disadvantage. Check inter division results since play started as further proof.
What pitcher is a better hitter than Dunn, Ibanez, Oritiz, morales, Butler? Often in the AL they face one more elite hitter compared to a player that gets ob 10% of time at most.
8/9 of the lineup is basically the same NL and AL.
Maybe if the hitter is/was Steve Carlton.. Then the NL doesn’t have very many pitchers who have an obp of .250 and hard to find any lineup around where there are starters with players hovering with much under a .300 obp
still puts it at 10% harder than an NL lineup where position players are equal. Probably around an extra 60+ or so runs over a season. You can’t deny that david ortiz isn’t significantly better than zambrano, who is one of the better hitters. Zambrano ops: .440 Ortiz ops: 1.017.
Ya that “9th” batter you’d face against the red sox is David Ortiz. He only has a 1.017 OPS this season. Just a little different then pitching to the starting pitcher/pinch hit bench player substitute.
I was talking generally. Ortiz is in a league of his own when it comes to the DH today.
8/9 is 88.89% That means 11.11% is substantially worse. 11% is kind of a big difference.
math is hard
I love how he brings up guys like Vargas who were cooked in the NL.
Vargas is “cooked” by any standards and in pretty much any league. Just a younger version of Jason Marquis.
Shame the Twins/Nationals aren’t in the market for another junkballing rubbish thrower. Those are the types of teams people like Vargas seem to flock to, or end up signing with.
I wouldn’t be to hasty about Matsuzuki. He was injured. He hasn’t pitched that badly. With Bobby, he should feel more comfortable. You never know. He could run off 7 or 8 in a row
How is this for a trade? Proven starters, Felix Doubrant, Franklin Morales (possibly Bard) and top prospects with a friggin first baseman in Lars Anderson and second baseman prospect, Sean Coyle. Try turning that one down.
That package isn’t nearly as good as you think it is. Lars has really fallen in rankings in recent years, 24, and still toiling in AAA, and sean coyle is the sox’s #17 prospect and is barely hitting. Doubrant and Morales are proven but their ceiling isn’t very high. Doubrant is a solid back end starter, and morales is a decent reliever. The sox would need to pony up more than that for 2.5 years of control of a dominant ace.
Um…really? Since when does 40IP from Morales and a couple of months of okay pitching from Doubront make them proven? Plus Bard can’t get guys out in AAA now. Plus Lars hasn’t had sustained success even in the minors for years now. That’s just a package of garbage for King Felix. I’m not a Red Sox or Mariners fan but a couple of back end starters at best and some guys not hacking it in the minors for one of the best starters in the majors.
Couple things:
1) Nice to see Alex Speier trying to take on the role of the young Peter Gammons. He is so in bed with the Red Sox and WEEI that I want to vomit.
Anyone that followed that whole offseason fiasco knows that the money they saved this offseason wasn’t to go out to get Cody Ross. It was to stay under the luxury tax.
2) I’d trade Lester, Ellsbury, and a prospect for Hernandez yesterday.
3) Another issue this offseason with trying to stay under the luxury tax – They tried to save money and give Bard a starting role so they didn’t have to spend 5-8 mil for a 1 year rental.
Bard is your typical back of the pen guy. Two pitches, nothing more. Great fastball and great slider. He isn’t, wasn’t, never should have been a starter.
Correct! It’s unbelievable how the press buys into this poormouth thing. Payroll should not be a problem in Boston. I would consider it a steal to get Felix for Ellsbury and Lester.1st: Lester sucks. 2nd,, Ellsbury can’t be counted on and will leave after next year
The Red Sox basically did Bard the same way the Yankees did Joba (to a lesser extent though).
Not really. It’s actually kind of the opposite. Bard was never any good as a starter. Joba rocketed through the minor leagues as a starter.
The Red Sox stupidly tried to make Bard, a reliever, into a starter. Obviously a stupid idea, because Bard was very, very good as a reliever, and was never, in his entire professional career, a starting pitcher.
The Yankees stupidly turned Joba, a starter, into a reliever, and then back into a starter then back into a reliever. Not entirely sure if that made him get injured, since he was an injury concern anyway, but it was stupid because Joba was very, very promising as a starter.
Results were the same anyway.. 98+ fb went to 94 on down fb and neither were worth much more than a back end at best SP at the MLB level.
Bard *was* a successful SP in college and why they thought he could be at the professional level. As have stated numerous times.. Thought myself leave well enough alone and either move him to the closer role, or use him as they were before and forget using that “WAR” stat nonsense about how much value he “could have” as a SP, because now he has absolutely none, just like Chamberlain as Bard is trying to get himself back into the frame of mind and facing a lost season and Chamberlain blew out his arm and for what?? Stat heads over thinking.. What ever happened to just using people for the jobs they were good at? Those 2 guys were *THE BEST* in the game at what they did! Setup closers..
That is what I meant. Those two are/were being forced to operate on the teams need. Can’t go throwing 100 mph one outing, then having to pace yourself the next.
Joba hurt his shoulder in Texas diving out of the way of a Pudge Rodriguez throw. To start 2008 they put him in the pen. Then they needed him and sent him down to the minors to get stretched out. Then he pitched extremely well until hurting his shoulder. Then before he was healed and when it was obvious the Yankees were out of the race, they brought him back to pitch some more out of the pen. From the start of 2007 to the end of 2008 they went MiLB starter, MLB pen, MLB pen again, MiLB starter, MLB starter, injury, MLB pen. Then he ran out of gas in 2009. Gee…I wonder why. And Joba was mid 90’s with a filthy slider and a decent change and curve even in 2009 before he ran out of gas because they never sufficiently let him build up the stamina for a full season. Then they never gave him another shot. Just absolutely destroyed ace potential.
Joba had good talent though, and had a few pitches. He was viewed as top of the rotation starter, you have to take a risk on that especially when you already got an elite closer in mariano.
Not at all, actually. Bard was a failed starter with two MLB pitches who had pitched for multiple years in the bullpen in the minors and majors before being transitioned and failing in a couple of months.
Joba was a successful and fast rising college and minor league starter, with four major league pitches, when he was called up as a reliever to save the major league team and then was flipped between starter and reliever depending on team need.
It’s not at all the same, including that the Yankees somehow ruined Joba’s career which has mostly been derailed with TJ (bound to happen with how Joba pitches) and falling wrong on a trampoline.
Bard is not a TJ candidate. By all indications his mechanics need to be reordered to what they once were. This could take a while but, in all likelihood he will rebound and return to pitch at Fenway again, perhaps in September.
That’s OK….But I never said anything about Bard and TJ…
Yeah, that is essentially what I meant. The two were/are pitching based on team need. Can’t throw 100 mph one outing, then have to start and pace yourself through.
Gotcha…CArry on then
Whether it’s for Hernandez or whomever, Ellsbury must be traded this winter. He’s free to leave after next season and he isn’t returning to the Sox-no how, no way.
How does Lester and Ellsbury make sense for the Mariners. IF they move Felix, they need younger players with more team control.
At this point they’re looking to compete now with what they need. They’ve been in the “building” process for some quite time now. lol
I think Seattle would be interested in a package of players like Ellsbury, Lester (relatively cheap), Bogaerts, and Ranaudo. They can lock up a player like Ellsbury long term with the money they save trading Felix and they get young, good prospects.
They wouldn’t get both Lester and Ellsbury, let alone throwing Boston’s top prospect and another guy in there.
Only difference between this piece and other articles written by Cafardo, is that he came out and stated that it was an imaginary story. The NY Post has a guy like that in Joel Sherman, two guys that often write nonsense and then try to pass it off serious journalism.I understand that as columnist, they’re entitled to their opinion and are paid for that, but sometimes it’s just insulting to read.
90% of sportswriters are mentally deficient… Unfortunately Cafardo falls into a category that makes that 90% sound like geniuses.
That goes for the majority of the Boston AND NY media. Both cities have inept sports writers in the market for making up news when none exists.
Can blame them for great players not working out (Randy Johnson) as well as really good ball players leaving, simply because of gossip and totally nonsense stories written about them (bruce Hurst)
Hurst a known fact.. Morman and private person who preferred to keep to himself and was pestered literally to death. i knew him well when he was drafted and his 1st few seasons as a professional. A highly religious person that was constantly hounded once he got to Boston by the media, when all he wanted was to be left alone.
As I said.. FA allowed him to take the high road and he picked a (then) quiet spot of San Diego.
All the media had to do was grant him some space.. Something they are still not able to do there…
How did I not know that Bruce Hurst was a Mormon? (as someone who was born and raised a Mormon I’ve always enjoyed following the careers of Mormon baseball players – Eckersley, Halladay, Ellsbury, even guys like John Buck, Bobby Crosby, and Jeremy Guthrie, and of course now Harper)
When Hurst was drafted, that 1st spring must have been a big time culture shock on him coming to central FL for ST after leaving Utah.
He was assigned to the HaSox that year and was looking for friends in the area. It was odd for him. Win Remmerschwall (Holland) was in about the same situation on that team, only Hurst with the highly relegious upbringing. Can thank Rac Slider (manager) for his hanging in, cause bruce was about ready to pack it all in the summer of ’77 and head home.
they still could have gotten more for scutaro, regardless of how ross has played
Why is it when Red Sox fans say they can get more than a young reliever for an aging middle infielder we’re laughed at. But when someone else says it, it’s accepted as fact?
Wow! If the RedSox were to call the Mariners and offer Lester and Ellsbury for Felix, I don’t think that they would be turned down. That is a deal that the Mariner fans could look at and see the value they are getting in return for Felix.
O yea that is spectacular value we are getting a year and a half rental and have to deal with Boras for an extension let’s also ignore the fact that he is hitting in Boston a hitters freindly ball park. This is probably the dumbest trade idea i have ever seen.
Its not so much that it’s a biased trade, ellsbury and Lester are both fantastic. It’s just that this trade makes absolutely no sense for the mariners. Also, the mariners really can’t hit worth a damn. Aaron cook just two hit them! Why don’t they seriously consider trading Felix. They’re not topping the Angels or rangers any time soon with that AAA lineup.
I love these proposals from East Coast journalists with respect to acquiring Felix Hernandez, and the fans of those teams clamoring that very one sided deals in their favor are too much to give up for one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball (who just so happens to be 26 years old). Like the Red Sox are the only team in baseball that would be interested in acquiring Hernandez if he would be put on the market. An offer such as Lester, Bradley, Bogaerts, Barnes and Bard for Felix and Figgins MIGHT be something the M’s would consider. Too much? Then the Mariners will just hold onto King Felix (or listen to offers from the 28 other teams that would fall all over themselves to acquire Felix). I guess no one in the national media realizes that Felix loves it in Seattle and has already resigned once when he could have let his contract run out and become a free agent. And the M’s have a lot of young talent; why not let it develop and pair it with King Felix for a run in 2014 or 2015 (once Felix resigns)? Seattle is also not a small market team, which might surprise some people.
I could see the M’s giving him a 7 year deal in the CC range of 160M.
well done, you’ve matched the ridiculousness of the side you’re arguing against. i’m glad you didn’t stoop to rationality
Honestly, we over here on the west coast are just as content with spiting all of you on the east coast by keeping Felix. Even if he does walk in two years, it would have been worth it just to spite Boston and New York.
“i can either lose all the time with a great player while teams i dislike win without him, or i can win without that player while the teams i hate win with him
i choose the first one because i am a fan of baseball and definitely not just a drama queen who uses the sport to work out his personal issues”
Felix is ours and you can’t have him.
(P.S. I’ll post this anytime his name is brought up)
winning records are ours and you can’t have one
see: 2007, 2009
see 3 and 5 seasons ago? what do you imagine those two years illustrate here, exactly? how far the rangers have come? how poorly the mariners have been managed?
even if those two seasons in any way suggested something encouraging about the next two seasons ( they don’t), the mariners didn’t even make the playoffs in those years
but at least they had felix. that’s what it’s all about. having a great player and a failing team
Regardless, what you seem to be suggesting is that the only reason the Mariners aren’t winning is because they won’t trade Felix, and that’s simply not true. Even if they did trade Felix, there’s no way they would be immediate contenders any sooner than we’re already expected to. I’d rather lose with Felix than lose without him when, if push came to shove and he didn’t end up signing an extension, we could just trade him in 2013 or 2014 for similar hauls.
that isn’t my suggestion at all. recall that this started with a mariner fan bragging, absurdly, about having felix. all i’m pointing out is that having felix has been meaningless and will probably be meaningless for the next two years
trading him, on the other hand, despite what you say, will almost certainly bring them to contention sooner than otherwise. that would be worth bragging about
oh, and the idea that you can trade him in 2014 for a haul similar to what he’d bring in 2012 is patently ridiculous. just think about it for a second
Fair enough, I suppose. I do agree that I was wrong about him bringing a similar return in 2014 as he would in 2012, but this is all assuming he doesn’t sign an extension which is far from a sure thing. I’m just saying it’s not impossible to win with Felix.
Just last year, Yankees fans were talking about a package of prospects centered around Jesus Montero in a trade for Felix Hernandez; now, we have both Jesus Montero and Felix and we’re still not winning (at least not yet).
Shipping away Felix for a couple of blue-chip prospects and whatever else he may or may not bring in return doesn’t necessarily make us more likely to win in the near term. Seattle’s seen many “can’t miss” prospects do just that, and to see the face of your franchise dealt for more of the same certainly wouldn’t sit well with the fans. In any case, I hardly see the Red Sox as likely to acquire him.
Daniel Bard, Junichi Tazawa, Mike Aviles, Cody Ross and Ryan Lavarnway for Felix Hernandez, Chone Figgins (to take Punto’s bench roll) and cash to cover Figgin’s Salary
Get Jack Z on the phone right now! A steal for the Mariners! The M’s should at least throw in Danny Hultzen and Taijuan Walker to even it out…any time a team is offering a broken relief pitcher, a 30 year old below average SS, a 31 year old below average OF and two B-/C+ prospects for a 26 year old top 5 pitcher under team control for 2 1/2 more years, you just have to take it.
Would the Mariners turn down Lester/Lavarnway/Nava/Barnes/Cecchini?