Joe Maddon shocked many people by opting out of his contract with the Rays Friday and has now become the most coveted managerial free agent in recent history. While early speculation was that he’d follow former GM Andrew Friedman to the Dodgers, Friedman and the Dodgers have issued a statement backing Don Mattingly as their manager, definitively stating that Mattingly will manage the Dodgers next season.
There’s been plenty of other Maddon chatter, however, so we’ll keep track of the latest on his situation here…
October 25
- Maddon’s agent Alan Nero says 10 teams have contacted him about Maddon, reports Jon Heyman of CBS Sports. Job suggestions have varied from manager to something like the Chief Baseball Officer position occupied by Tony La Russa. Maddon has also been contacted by several media outlets. Nero notes that Maddon is prepared to sit out 2015. He cited a previous experience with Lou Pinnela who spent a year as a FOX analyst before joining the Cubs. Apparently, Maddon’s friends say he’s interested in joining a NL club due to the added challenge of managing the pitcher’s at bats.
October 24
- Twins GM Terry Ryan tells Berardino that the news of Maddon’s availability came as a surprise to him. “This is a pretty big opt-out,” he said. “When I saw it, I was surprised, but it’s certainly caught my eye.” Though he did not say expressly that the team would consider Maddon, Ryan seemed to indicate that is very much a possibility. “I certainly will do my due diligence on anybody that’s available,” said Ryan. “Everybody was hoping I would hurry up and get a manager. ’What’s taking so long.’ Now everybody sees this.”
- Meanwhile, sources tell LaVelle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star Tribune (via Twitter) that the team will indeed reach out to Maddon.
- Angels GM Jerry Dipoto put to bed any speculation that the Halos would consider Maddon, telling Alden Gonzalez of MLB.com (Twitter link) that, “of course Mike [Scioscia] will be our manager.”
Earlier Updates
- David Kaplan of CSNChicago has spoken to several sources who have indicated to him that the Cubs are indeed the front-runner to land Maddon at this time, but there are several teams that have shown interest (Twitter link).
- ESPN’s Buster Olney, who intially reported the opt-out, hears that if Maddon ends up with the Cubs, the Rays will investigate the issue of tampering (Twitter link).
- Sherman reports that Maddon is looking for a five-year deal worth roughly $25MM (Twitter link). He again downplays any thought that the Mets could go to those heights, noting that GM Sandy Alderson doesn’t believe managers should be compensated as such.
- Joel Sherman of the New York Post spoke with Maddon on the phone (Four links to Twitter) and was told that Maddon didn’t feel the Rays would commit to him the dollars he was hoping for on a new contract. Maddon, 60, has had jobs throughout his career where his salary was dictated to him, and he felt this would be his last chance to find out how the open market would value him. He added that he was unaware of a clause in his contract that allowed him to opt out if Friedman left the team, and it was new Rays president of baseball ops Matthew Silverman who told Maddon of the clause. He said being contacted by teams with managers is none of his business. “They will do their business how they want to do it,” he told Sherman.
- Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reports (via Twitter) that Maddon was looking to be compensated with a deal that would’ve paid him like one of the top two or three skippers in the game, meaning something north of $5MM per season. Cafardo then spoke with Maddon’s agent, Alan Nero (Twitter link), and was told that Maddon would consider sitting out for a year, perhaps taking a TV gig, if the right opportunity doesn’t arise, but Cafardo adds that Nero’s phone line is “lighting up.”
- Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports also spoke to Maddon (Facebook link), and Maddon told him that he learned his contract contained a two-week opt-out window in the event that Friedman left the Rays. Rosenthal asked Maddon specifically about the Cubs, to which Maddon replied, “I don’t know. I have to talk to people. I have interest everywhere right now. I’ve got to hear what everyone has to say.” Maddon wants to work, regardless of landing a new managerial gig, but his preference is to be in a dugout.
- Sherman tweets that he’s been told that Maddon won’t be going to the Braves or Blue Jays and that all signs point to the Cubs.
- Yahoo’s Jeff Passan spoke to one Maddon confidante who said Maddon wouldn’t have opted out of a deal without having a sense for what the market could offer, and he wants to go to a big market (Twitter link).
- The Twins are the only team with a current managerial opening (besides the Rays, of course), but La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star Tribune heard that the team had yet to contact Maddon (Twitter link).
- Mike Berardino of the St. Paul Pioneer Press looks at whether or not the Twins could plausibly make a run at Maddon, noting that the team has never paid a manager more than $2MM annually and will in fact be paying Ron Gardenhire $2MM not to manage the club this season.
- Mets owner Jeff Wilpon gave Jon Heyman of CBS Sports (Twitter link) a very concise and definitive answer when asked about Maddon, stating, “No. We are not changing managers.” GM Sandy Alderson told Andy Martino of the New York Daily News, “Terry is our manager,” via text message (Twitter link).
- Jayson Stark of ESPN tweets that the more people with whom he speaks, the greater the sense he gets that there was almost no offer the Rays could’ve made to keep him there.
If VMART is worth $15-18MM when he is a 39 year old DH…
What is Maddon worth?
Who will have more impact on there team? If you think Maddon, why should he not get AAV exceeding VMART?
Highest paid manager is getting 5MM and you want some team to pay Maddon 15MM?
My question is who as a greater impact on the team.
1. A 39 year old VMART making $15-18MM in last year of a contract as a DH?
2. Maddon for one year.
Do you think VMART is more valuable. Simple question.
OPS+ of 168 umm yeah, I do.
FOUR YEARS from now?
Doesn’t matter. When teams sign older players they factor in decline. A team signing V-Mart now wants the production he can give them over the next couple of seasons. The mistake fans keep making is believing that a player being paid XX amount of dollars must remain at the same level throughout his contract. Teams get undervalued players before they hit free agency, and they then pay top price when they are free agents. It’s all part of the system both sides agreed to.
As for Maddon, it’s unknown what he can deliver when he is no longer part of the Tampa Bay system. I’d much rather have Victor Martinez. He will deliver value.
Yes. Simple answer
There are not that many 39+ year olds that are productive in MLB as regular hitters in this post steroid era. I can think of exactly ONE: Big Papi. Can you think of any others?
Vmart is more valuable. Whatever you just said is irrelevant
Can you think of one other productive 39+ year old (than Big Papi)?
I can’t…which means is a good chance that VMART will have ZERO value 4 years from now. He has to beat the odds to even give any production.
Safe bet to assume that Maddon will be more valuable than VMART in 2018 as VMART may not even be on a MLB roster at that time.
Really a “no brainer”.
It might be a no brainier is 2019. It’s even more of a no brainse in 2030z too bad it’s 2014, making all of this irrelevant. vmart isn’t getting an $18M contract in 2019 unless he puts up 2014 numbers in 2018. In that case then yea, he’s worth that much
I mean 2018. VMART wants (and will likely get 4 years).
Year 1: 2015
Year 2: 2016
Year 3: 2017
YEAR 4: 2018.
VMART will be paid $15-18MM in 2018 when he is 39.
That’s still not relevant. They pay him that in 2018 because that’s the cost to get him in 2015. Just isolating one year 4 years from now is a weak argument. You can say the same thing about Pujols and Cano. You can’t just isolate one year of a contract to make an argument
Raul Ibanez at 39+ was productive.
I forgot about Jim Thome.
OK… two (maybe four if you consider Jeter and Ichiro productive in 2014).
Do you think if VMART turns into Ibanez/Jeter/Ichiro in 4 years, he will be worth more than Joe Maddon to his team?
Baseball worth and business worth aren’t always equal.
True that more VMART Jerseys will be sold than Maddon Jerseys… but will he bring more wins FOUR YEARS from now?
Hard to say, but he’ll be aged for sure…I’d don’t think contracts can be judged solely on wins by teams. They do have other factors in play.
Take two identical pitchers stat wise..Iets call one Tom Smith and the other Tim Lincecum. Tom Smith toils as the #4 sp in Milwaukee. Stats say he and Lincecum are the same pitcher. Then why is Lincecum more valuable to the Giants? It’s because of his icon status. The guy is marketable. He sees the added revenue he generates for the Giants built into his contract. Not that he earns it on the field.
When a team doesn’t perform, the manager gets the boot. No manager will EVER make that kind of money, due to being shuffled around so often.
Players like VMART always have more of an impact than a manager.
I can’t say I believe there is a single manager on the planet that does as much as even the average utility guy to help his team win games. They run the ship, but the players do all the real work. And then the managers get blamed when it goes wrong. 5 million max.
It does depend on the situation. Take a manager that clearly and routinely mismanages a bullpen… Sometimes he will get away with it, but maybe two of those times a season he loses a game. The team ends up losing their division by a single game and they must play a wild card game. This time he pulls the same moves and gets away with it. Team goes on and reals off 8 wins and make the world series.
In the end if a pitcher doesn’t pitch well, that’s 99% on him.
If a manager refuses to use a pitcher in a key 6th inning situation because “He’s our 7th inning guy”and won’t break out of the frozen use mentality… Then he does bear some burden of responsibility. It can’t be expected that a lesser pitcher will respond as well.
…but in the same situation, if you have a $1M manager you can add another $4M arm to the bullpen and you eliminate any possibility of that completely
Just need to have the RIGHT manager. It doesn’t take a high profile manager to make the right calls. Yeah.. Sure..I see what you mean, so in theory a few team like Boston, NY, or the Dodgers would be less reliant on a good in game manager than a manager of people. That seemed to be Joe Torre’s great skill.
Your opinion is he misused a pitcher. Yet he still made it to the World Series, and still maintains one of the best bullpens in baseball. So even if he is a terrible manager, his team still made it to the World Series. You just proved my point. Although I don’t think managers are typically as bad as fans think they are. I think it’s just easier to blame them because people are less emotionally invested in them than the players.
Ned Yost didn’t lead his team to the world series so much as he walked up to a slot machine and it hit. No…I’m right with you on managers…but this is one case where several managerial decisions can be pin pointed as costly. Had they not come back in that wild card game…he would be unemployed now. We’re not talking about a manager who isn’t responsible because his team lacks talent and they lose 100. Or a manager that has a roster of all stars and wins 100. If anything a wild card level team needs the best game caller of all..because 1-2 manager losses costs everything
That’s the thing though. Managers can’t be blamed for loses and get no credit for wins. They are equally responsible for both, which isn’t a heck of a lot. You can say he lost two random games from bad bullpen mismanagement, but you can’t prove he didn’t also win two other games from good bullpen management. Because all we see as losses and where to assign blame. No one looks to give credit for wins.
That’s true enough…but I think it’s a wash once all managers are balanced. I’m not strictly talking a manager putting a typically successful pitcher in a game and the pitcher gets hit. It’s how do we.measure when a manager truly makes a bad decision.
Yeah….I thought about it…while Yost was costing those two games…what was Ausmus costing Detroit. It’s the reality that the game isn’t played in a vacuum. I can say that managers can cost individual games…and that’s when they get held accountable.
You can say they cost the game, but you have the benefit of hindsight. Yost has no idea what is going to happen when he makes the decisions he makes. He may choose a pitcher that is successful 90% of the time in the same situation, but this time he fails, and suddenly it’s Yost who made the wrong decision in choosing that pitcher. It simply doesn’t work that way, and we are not always privy to why decisions are made. Maybe there were other decisions we think he could have made that were not actually available to him. No manager is right all of the time, but he’s been right enough to get to the World Series, which is all that matters. No team makes it to the World Series in spite of their manager and loses it because of their manager. You can’t assign blame without giving credit.
As an isolated event…Yost would have in all probability cost them the playoff game under similar scenario if it is repeated. Sure, managers can add to wins…even intangible wins because of player chemistry… But its much easier for them to fail…just because the game tilts to failure.
Extreme example….is it much of a sign of good management to write out Mike Trout’s name in a lineup. No…but a manager has it at his discretion to pinch hit for him using a September call up on a hunch.
Don’t know if I’d go so far as to say that I’d measure it equally because I believe games are more easily lost than won. A manager putting an guy out on the hill on short rest on a hunch and losing is easier to do than determine which players will perform well game to game offensively. A manager could in theory cost his team 162 games, but not win a single one
Sure, that’s a great philosophy that allows you to assign blame for losses. The face is, it’s easier in most cases to point to the decision that “lost” the game than the one that won it. Just because it is easier to to pick it out, doesn’t mean it’s easier to lose a game than win it. In the end the players are 95% responsible for the victories. It comes down to whether they execute properly. The manager’s job is to keep the peace, play the percentages, and get the heck out of the way and let them play baseball.
Managers win games before they are played by doing their homework and studying matchups. It’s the long range when they win and typically on the spot decisions where they lose.
Exactly…that’s where Yost went wrong..he inserted himself into the game narrative. He used a wild rookie starter on three days rest when he had Herrera in the pen. He wouldn’t use Herrera because of the flawed logical that he’s the “7th inning guy”… I’ve noticed he hasn’t repeated that scenario since. He did it frequently during the season
In a way, managers are a little like umpires and that old saying, “if you notice them, they aren’t doing their job.”
A manager cannot repeatedly put his team in precarious situations and expect them to come back every time…it’s just not probable. Play that wild card game again and again and Oakland likely wins that game 8/10
I’d ask you to prove that but clearly you can’t. It’s all just speculation.
It’s relative to the situation, but how often did the Oakland bullpen hold leads during the season? I don’t have the number, but I know it was a high percentage
Playoffs are entirely different animals though. You could also say how often did Jon Lester give up 6 runs in a playoff game? Once. Just that one game. His worst playoff performance to date. Strange things happen in the playoffs. Why doesn’t Yost get credit for the comeback? He is only blamed for the necessity of it in the first place. You can’t only assign blame for failure and not also give credit for success. You can’t also let the pitchers who gave up the runs in the first place go blameless.
In what way did Yost do anything above normal to ensure the come back? We can only assume any replacement would deploy the bullpen in the same way.
In what way did he cause the need for it in the first place? Having faith in your players to come through in the most important game of the season is necessary. Again you’re attempting to blame him for poor pitching performances and not give him credit for timely hitting and good baserunning. In reality he is responsible for none of it. That is my point.
My point is that Ned Yost cost the Royals likely a 92-93 win season that would have avoided the randomness of the wild card game. Whether the Royals win 93 or 103..they’d still have to play the LDS of course.
Let’s say a manager is worth two wins or losses per season. That would mean little to a team on the upper or lower win/loss spectrum. 98-100 wins…not typically much difference.. Same with losses…but put those 1-2 wins/losses in the 85-90 win level and depending on the season…it’s the difference between a division title and watching the post season on tv
A manager can lose games for his team, but it’s kind of hard to say a manager “won” the game for his team. It’s more of a big picture impact, I’d say.
If a division or playoff spot comes down to one game..you certainly don’t want that manager costing you 1-2 games.
Tony La Russa would disagree.
At the same time. Mike Matheny had no managerial track record and the Cardinals haven’t skipped a beat. La Russa may actually be an argument that proves Victoria’s point
I completely agree with Victoria in the larger scope…but when you are involved in single events in a tight race those misplays by a manager carry unusual weight.
There really are a few types of managers. There are the ones that are great with younger talent.. Maybe managers who’ve worked in the minors…then there are the veteran/playoff type managers.
If you saw Matheny manage in the playoffs this year the STL fans are not very pleased with how he managed. Leaving a career 1 hit specialist in, using Wacha, etc.
He has at least made it to the NLCS every year. I see your point but the Cardinals are still the second most successful franchise in the MLB just behind the Giants. I think you can also make the argument that Matheny has done more with significantly less (i.e.- no Pujols or Duncan)
La Russa had Dave Duncan for most of his career, that was a big plus.
I agree 95% with this. The only situation where I don’t agree is with teams such as the Yankees and the Dodgers. Those teams are worried about the luxury tax, not blowing budgets. As far as I know the manager does not count against the luxury tax. Might as well overpay a manager if you have the money leftover.
I also think the right manager is more valuable to a team like the Cubs. That is a young team that could use someone who is good at providing direction. At one point, that is what Maddon did with the Rays
You are way over valuing how much a manager actually impacts the game.
Is he? How much was a World Series berth worth?
I think Managers that are good, the ones that make the right decisions when needed are worth much more than 5m/year. The problem is that most managers are only as good as their players and more than half of them win despite not really doing a good job (ie: Matheny, Mattingly). There are a few out there (Bochy, for one) who make their mediocre team win by making the right moves or non-moves.
Pitching changes, lineup changes, putting in a bad player because you can’t handle streaks by a good player, etc.
Managers are worth a ton if they’re good, less than nothing if they’re not. I’d fire at least 2/3 of the managers out there for Maddon. Easily.
A World Series berth is worth a lot. But Maddon hasn’t won a playoff series since 2008, let alone get to a World Series since then. Ned Yost has won as many as playoff series as Joe Maddon has, and don’t even try to tell me that Ned Yost has had better players. Zobrist and Longoria (and James Shields in his prime, Carl Crawford in his prime, David Price, etc.) have been better than anyone that KC has.
Then you are too since you want your team that made it pretty deep in the post season to kick their manager aside
Anyone that thinks that a quality manager dies not affect what a team does needs to look at what has happened to the Cleveland Indians the past 2 years under Terry Francona.
correlation =/= causation
Then why are you wasting your time posting about a manager?
Actually correlation doesn’t imply causation which is different than “does not equal.”
Larussa 2 World Series rings with cards matheny?
Baseballl isn’t just about winning…it is a business trying to make money. Joe Masson is not going to sell millions in attendence increases and merchandise.
Joe Masson might not, but if a team hires Joe Maddon they can say they hired one of the better managers in the game which may help their team performance which may help increase attendance and merchandise.
If Joe Maddon led the Rays to increased attendance. The new front office team had better start trying to bring Casey Stengel back from the beyond.
Supply and demand.
It’s a lot easier to find someone capable of keeping up clubhouse morale, understanding the games, and “play the percentages” when it comes to filling in lineup cards, making switches, calling for plays etc. than there are people who can actaully get base hits off major league pitching. Even the best players only have a few years of their life where they’re near their physical peak, whereas managers don’t need to have razor sharp reflexes and can manage well into old age.
Compare Maddon to Brad Ausmus or Mattingly this year. Could he have won a few more games. My answer is YES. How many more? Maybe 4-5.
Could the Tigers have beaten the Orioles in game 2 of the ALDS with Maddon v. Ausmus who completely mismanaged the 8th inning? I believe YES. As Back to the Future taught us, everything changes after that point.
The value to the team is huge if my estimate is correct.
But your estimate isn’t based on anything tangible. It’s an opinion, which your perfectly entitled to, but there’s nothing that backs it up.
Managers generally won’t win games, as the decisions they make still require the players to pull through.
But ask any Dodgers fan just how many games a Manager can lose.
I believe they win some games. There is also a very strong “chemistry” aspect to what they do, in addition to the Xs and Os.
Well put. It may not always be a direct result, but a good manager is worth wins. Some genius will find a way to quantify it!
Please not this debate again, my heart can’t take it
What makes you think Maddon is worth that money? For all his press clippings, he’s had as much talent as any manager in baseball over the last eight years, and has zero championships and hasn’t won a playoff series since 2008. He’s a good manager, but he’s no better than a dozen other guys.
I don’t think V-Mart is worth that much money, but neither is Maddon.
If that’s the case, shouldn’t Bruce Bochy be making $30M annually for taking the Giants to the WS three times in five years?
Value is not going to be the same for a manager and a player. You absolutely cannot compare the two.
When the highest paid manager in all of baseball is making $7M, you have to take a step back and re-read what you typed…
You are kidding, right? Do you think Maddon will beat out Martinez in MVP votes?
their team
Sounds like the Rays suspect some tampering here. This could get VERY interesting. If they have the goods on someone (everyone suspects the Cubs) then they could demand some pretty decent compensation.
He had a clause in his contract where he could opt out. Therefore, his contract is now null and void and can sign with whomever he wants to.
But if the Cubs approached him, in any manner before he opted out that can be construed as tampering. If you are currently under contract your team has to give permission to talk with others.
Or he could have seen the writing on the walls with Friedman leaving and the Rays farm system not being what it used to be. Also, he knows teams will drop whatever money it takes to get him, so why not go out and get more money? Just because the Cubs have the money and the need doesnt mean tampering occurred.
That’s exactly what he’s doing. The Rays can’t afford to keep their good players. As long as Friedman was there, he was keeping the well flowing with talent for Maddon to assemble into a team. A few more losing seasons in Tampa, which are coming now that Friedman’s in LA, and suddenly Maddon (who hasn’t won a playoff series since 2008) isn’t a hot commodity anymore. If he’s going to cash in, he needs to do it now.
Plus, Rays have had some rough drafts between 2008-2011 (at least). I think Maddon figured it was the best time to see what other opportunities are out there. Maybe he was watching the Dodgers thinking “Man if I managed that team, we’d be in the WS”
It doesn’t matter what they think. They put the opt-out clause in there and if they didn’t want him to bolt for another job elsewhere, too bad. How can they demand compensation when Maddon left his job in a completely legitimate manner? He didn’t force someone to fire him. He didn’t walk away from a contract leaving years on the table. He exercised a clause that was in there from the beginning.
It would still be tampering if the Cubs contacted him before he exercised his opt-out.
They’re going to need something more than “the deal came together really quickly” to make a case of it, regardless of whether there was tampering or not.
It would seem that the accusing team would be the one make the case against the accused . . . not the other way around. In this case, hiring a manager of Maddon’s reputation would logically be a quick decision so they don’t lose his services to another team.
It depends if the Cubs contacted him and expressed interest before he opted out.
It is very difficult to prove tampering. It probably happens all the time, but teams are smart enough to do it without getting caught. I don’t think anything will be uncovered.
My money is on the Mets. The timing is just wrong for the Cubs to change horses again. To yank the rug out from under Renteria so soon after he did exactly what he was hired to do sends the wrong message to the whole baseball world about the Cubs loyalty (or lack thereof) to people who sign with them. IMHO
There are very few elite managers in baseball (Bochy, Girardi, Maddon, maybe 2 or 3 others). While it would be a rough way to treat Renteria, very few would fault the Cubs for taking a shot to hire a manager who could actually take them to the next level.
The only thing I can think of is, “Yeah, you’re the one for the job. That is of course until someone better comes along.” I don’t think I’d like to work for a company like that.
Sport isn’t a company like that. When an elite person is available, the company needs to take a look. Renteria wasn’t the 1st choice last year. Girardi was their original target
That works both ways. If you’re an elite person, why would you take a job with that franchise if there are other opportunities? “It doesn’t matter how well you do if somebody we like better becomes available” is not a winning recruitment strategy. It gets you guys who care about nothing but the money, which is a dangerous person to hire considering his money is guaranteed when he signs on the dotted line.
Regardless of whether Maddon ends up managing the Cubs, I can’t imagine Renteria being fired. They’d find him some other position, assuming he would accept it.
It is about the best guy available. Clearly maddon is a very highly regarded manager. “Rickey” is not in that class. Upgrade when you can upgrade when it is this significant of an upgrade.
I’ve generally thought that Renteria was the transition manager before they moved into the playoff phase manager..Joe Girardi. Maddon being available might certainly alter that given Girardi might not ever be available.
Girardi was always my #1 choice for a manager so in that sense I’m with you. You may be right that he was never in their plans as the manager for a winning Cubs team. The whole situation just feels wrong to me. Renteria did everything we wanted him to do. Firing him one season in after a developmentally positive season doesn’t sit well with me.
Dale Sveum surprised me….they jumped off him quickly. Not sure what happened there. Whole Lotta internal issues go on most of us aren’t privy to.
Sveum had his guys prepared, but that’s the only positive I can say for him. (Or maybe it was McKay — he was the big loss from that coaching staff for me.) Castro and Rizzo took huge steps backward and we know he was tinkering with Castro’s swing, which is likely what got him fired. I can’t find a negative about Renteria, not based on anything we know publicly.
Sveum is the savior in KC now…go figure…its all timing and chemistry
Upper management told them to work with castro and turn him into a hitter that can take a walk and work 3-2 counts.
Problem was that Castro isnt that guy after the season they figured it out and let Castro be Castro. Sveum was just doing his job at the time.
Add Castro’s issues dealing with that legal dispute back home..and that season was a wash for him.
Sometimes I feel it’s not so much what plan an organization has…it’s just executing it as close to perfectly as possible. I think that’s exactly what we’re seeing from KC right now. They are a 90ish win team over a season.
svuem never seemed too bright if you ask me
Prepare to lose that money because the Mets won’t even spend on their on-field talent. They’re certainty not going to spend $5MM a year on a manager.
The Cardinals could use a new manager.
Didn’t they make it pretty far in the playoffs with the current manager…
They also made it pretty far in the playoffs with Daniel Descalso…doesn’t mean they should stick with him.
This is a great reply. Made me laugh.
that was funny, and a good point, but the Cardinals need to do whatever makes them lose next year. I’m so sick of them winning.
Whitey Herzog. Been saying that since Hussein invaded Kuwait. Actually.. I just mutter it randomly…I figure at some point they’ll institutionalize me and I won’t have to hear my four small boys yell and fight anymore.
Cubs would be a good choice for Maddon, and he could bring in the pitching they need. I could see them getting either Scherzer or Shields this year and Price next year. That might put the young regulars right in the playoffs. The Cubs will be looking to get as much good pitching as possible the next 2 years.
This front office + a coaching staff led by Maddon + the youth on this roster (and farm system STILL) = possible dynasty. Yeah yeah, it’s the Cubs and I’m obviously dreaming about this, but the possibility is so great if things continue going in the direction they have been.
Half those prospects won’t pan out, you know. And they still have no pitching after Arrieta (and I have my doubts about him).
Hendricks is actually very good. I find it funny that people seem to want to be negative about the Cubs with quotes like “Half those prospects won’t pan out, you know” The Cubs still have Travis Wood, who had a terrible year, but is usually more solid than that and then there are about 4-5 pitchers in the minors that are looking pretty good. They had a team ERA of 3.91 despite having E. Jackson the whole year.
Point being that if half the prospects don’t work out, there are a bunch more in the Cubs minor league system to replace them and we aren’t talking about fringe players either. We are talking about solid to well above average ceilings.
They’re going to buy pitching. If half the hitting prospects work out, that’s bad news for opponents.
Who in the right state of mind would give Terry Collins another chance to be bad manager for 2015… I guess NYM will..
If the Braves don’t even make an effort, I’m finished with them…..being committed to Fredi Gonzalez is being committed to incompetence and failure.
Get frustrated but never finished with mine. You’ll be fine!
Right on, the Braves have been a much better team than their records have indicated. Gonzalez is and always has been a bad manager.
Would you really wish managing BJ Upton on Maddon again?
Ha, Maddon might actually be able to do something with him!
He isn’t going to leave the Rays to go to the Twins. No way. If the Cubs don’t want to fire Renteria, then I could see Maddon spending a year on MLBN or ESPN, similar to what Terry Francona did, and then see what’s out there for next year (ahem, Dodgers, ahem).
He is not going to the Twins. They would not shell out that kind of money to a manager, but it would be a shrewd move for him if he did go there. They have a lot of talent coming up within the next few years and he would get a lot of credit for their likely turnaround.
Has nothing to do with money. If the best guy for the job costs them the highest salary paid to an mlb manager then that’s who they’ll hire. The “Twins are cheapskates” stuff is getting old. The Pohlads havn’t been squeakers since Target Field opened. Anybody who pays any kind of attention to that team knows that. What would’ve been the point of over paying marginal talent last off season just for the sake of spending money when they weren’t going to compete anyway? TR has left money in the vault since he reclaimed his gm post. That being said no way they hire Maddon anyway. Too late in the process to even consider it. Molitor will be the next mgr of the twins.
He’s not going to the Twins anyway… They are not a major market team.
Fire Matheny!!! Hire Maddon!!!
I think this proves that Joe and Dodgers never had anything “in the works”. If they did, he would have stuck it out in Tampa for another year and hooked up with the Dodgers next year. By opting out, he is either trying to pressure the Dodgers in to making a move now or never was interested in the job anyways.
If the Cubs hire Maddon, does Renteria go back to Padres as bench coach?
If that were to happen, I’m assuming the Cubs try to get him to be their bench coach first. No idea what his feelings would be toward the organization at that point, though. I wouldn’t blame him for leaving and SD makes a ton of sense for him since he lives down there.
Id have to think that wouldn’t fair well for the relationship between Renteria and Maddon. Renteria needs to leave in that situation in my opinion.
Could be. Maybe I’m grasping at straws because while I would love to have Maddon, I think firing Renteria to get him is a slimy move.
In the long run Maddon is the guy you want. Yeah its kind of messed up since Renteria did a decent job, they even had stretches where they were competitive. In the end though, Maddon is a more established and respected manager and is more likely to lead the Cubs to success.
I don’t think it’s slimy, I think it’s business. I have no issue with the Cubs hiring Maddon if they think he is their best option. It’s unfortunate for Renteria if that is the case, but he’d have to know that could be a possibility, he just has to look at what happened to the manager before him and, he actually did the same thing and took part in the same process (sort of) when he took the job while Dale was manager. That being said, I am a Cubs fan and I do not want Maddon. I think Renteria is a very good manager and I wouldn’t want him replaced.
“Sherman reports that Maddon is looking for a five-year deal worth roughly $25MM…” I think Maddon may be overestimating his value to a team. I just don’t see him getting that many years OR that many dollars per AAV.
I would do that..
Girardi got 4 years and $4MM per. Scioscia got 10 years at $5MM a piece. I don’t think that number is that far out there if you believe in him.
He will def get at least that much, just might not be for 2015 season
I don’t wish them bad luck, but I have a very strong feeling that the Rays will plummet in the standings without Maddon in the dugout next year. There aren’t too many guys they can hire who will be able to replace him in the immediate future.
Dave Martinez would be a great choice, still surprised he hasn’t landed a job yet.
He’d be an ironic choice to replace Ryne Sandberg in Philly.
I thought the same thing. This could be the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Predicting a slow downward spiral for the Rays.
I think your a bit overestimating. A really bad manager can destroy things, but going from a good manager to an average manager you are maybe looking at a couple games.
Darn it Arizona, just had to quickly hire a manager, well anyways a team nobody is mentioning is the Milwaukee Brewers… Good team that badly needs good leadership… Saw a game up there this past season and the fan base is one of the best in baseball, i think a great fit for Maddon… plus i don’t think too many people will cry if Ron Roenicke gets the boot, surprised he hasn’t already
Supposedly Maddon wants a large market with payroll flexibility…Milwaukee is not in play
Brewers are what, about 100 million in payroll? The owner always seems to come up with extra as well. Maybe that’s not enough. Its a pretty enthusiastic fanbase as well.
They can’t do Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees payroll though. If that’s what he wants then he should just string Epstein out for a few more months and go for more than 5/25.
Well, this certainly takes interest away from the Alex Rios sweepstake.
I honestly think Maddon sits out the year and takes a stint on ESPN. He’s not going to the Twins and the three best jobs–Cubs, Dodgers and Tigers aren’t available, I went to high school with him and he’s done some wonderful things for the Hazleton area in Pennsylvania. It’s too bad the Phillies are so dreadful as it would be great to have him there.
The Cubs job is absolutely available. If Maddon wants to come to the Cubs, he will manage the Cubs.
I’ve seen the Cub’s gig as awaiting Joe Girardi… But Maddon would change that path
noting that GM Sandy Alderson doesn’t believe managers should be compensated as such.. they shouldn’t be!!! Plus, I thought Maddon was a simple man, who liked talking to the fans! Ahh, the almighty dollar strikes again! SMH!
I keep reading WAR measurements which are fine for measuring on field performance, but don’t completely explain a player or manager’s impact on an MLB team as a business. Sure, more wins means more revenue.
Measuring a manager as a percentage of a players impact on the field only assumes that on the field is the players only impact on the team. Then saying that a manager is worth a percentage of a players salary based on that is flawed. Players are paid not just for WAR.
I guess to clarify…take Tim Lincecum. He will make $15m next season. His WAR might not value him that highly.. But that doesn’t not take into account his marketing value to the Giants, which rightly pay him because he generates revenue. This not make Bruce Bochy worth a percentage of Lincecums entire $15m. Because Bochy has his own marketing value.
Bottom line is, Maddon is better than Mattingly, so the Dodgers endorsement for Mattingly as Manager in ’15 is both frustrating, and confusing.
He is a clear upgrade, put an offer in front of him.
Am surprised nobody’s analyzing this by WAR. What could a manager be worth in WAR? 3 wins? What does a 3 WAR player get paid in free agency?
well there are no sabermetrics for a manager that I’m familiar with, how do you value a replacement level manager?
By how many wins a guy gets when the manager gets thrown out?
One million per win for a manager, 6 for a player so Maddon would get a 5/15 deal. Actually sounds pretty right on.
Yeah, but no one pays to see a manager. It’s my Tim Lincecum theory. WAR does not entirely account for marketability. Lincecum, for example, is much more valuable than a typical comp because of that.
There are fewer than 5 players in MLB at any one time that people pay specifically to see.
Lincecum may have been one at one time, but isn’t anymore.
People pay to see the laundry.
There’s still plenty of Tim Lincecum bobble heads and tees at the Giants team store and around that market.
I’m not trying to make a hard line case….just add that marketing factors do play in and mess with assessing a player on WAR alone.
If I were the Dodgers, I would be dropping Mattingly like a hot potato.
If I were the Cardinals, I would be dropping Matheny like a hot potato.
Mets drop Terry ASAP and get Maddon.
anyone considering that Maddon might be in the running not to replace Don Mattingly, but be interested in replacing Ned Coletti in the Dodger front office with Friedman or another position with the Dodgers i.e. that of departed DeJon Watson
Then the scenario becomes during next year when the Dodgers are faltering, Mattingly is released and Maddon “heroically” steps down into the field managers role to save the team
The first part of this I believe possible – the second is fantasy of course
How high do you go if you believe that Maddon is a difference maker? His expected salary ($6MM/year) matches a #5 starter or a middle reliever. He has to be worth more than that, doesn’t he?
Should he be worth the same as a QO, which the average of the top 125 player in MLB? ($15MM)
Why not?
Here’s another way to look at it in terms I am sure you will understand being a Tiger fan. Three facts: 1. Maddon wants $5-6mill 2. Detroit still needs to pay Asmus and 3. Detroit says they need to control spending. So now you have 2 options: Sign Maddon and only be able to sign a 2-3rd level LRP, or keep Asmus and go after LRP Miller. The first option may only get you what you had in 2014. Would Maddon be enough of a difference maker to overcome the train wreck of a bullpen Detroit had in 2014. My answer is No. Saving that money and using it to get V Mart a 4 year deal is also a no brainer.
I have no idea how much of an incremental difference there is between Ausmus and Maddon.
However, I would rather have Maddon than Miller. I know that for sure.
Much like Maddon invented the modern shift… I could see him figuring out a way to leverage the strength of the team (starting pitching) and hiding the weakness (relief pitching).
For example, why not have Lobstein pitch the FIRST 3 innings every 5 days, then piggy back Verlander (who no longer can go 8) for the last 6 innings. I could see Maddon figuring out that for the TIGERS, it would be better to have their best pitchers (starters) pitch the end of games, not the beginning.
He could also leverage the R/L matchups advantages better doing this.
I guess in my example the choice is having Maddon and Coke or Asmus and Miller. I think your example of Lobstein and Verlander is too outside the box for such a veteran club. I could see getting 1-2 veteran long relievers to go the 6-9 innings after the starters but not before them . The starters have a long ( some 1-2 hours) process leading up to the game and veterans won’t want to change that. What if the 1st pitcher gets bombed and you need to get your “starter” in quickly? Can’t just skip him and mess up their 5 game rotation. Lots of factors go into the process to just turn it upside down. I like “outside the box” thinking thou.
Question for Steve and Jeff. Do you think Friedman had some sort of non-solicitation clause in his contract with Tampa? Maybe he couldn’t offer Maddon the job, even if he wanted to.
He never had a contract with Tampa. Which is why is was able to just leave without any compensation going back to Tampa.
If I’m Rick Hahn I sit jerry down and convince him that loyalty is nice but wins are better. Remove robin from management and throw all the money at maddon.
Sounds to me like he’s going to sit out the year and wait for the Dodgers job to open up. Isn’t he from the West Coast too?
So is there any chance the Rays resign him? I literally see no mention of them positive or negative. Every time they are mentioned it is in a pre-opt out context
It’s common knowledge he’s going to wait until roenick is fired midway through next season so he can fulfill his lifelong dream of managing the Milwaukee Brewers.
…hey, i hear he likes a challenge.
Tampering. The Rays themselves told Maddon and his agent that he could utilize his option to opt out.
Wait….. 1 year left on his contract. Opts out. Sits out for year? You, Mr. Maddon, are a quitter. You quit on your team and the players who count on you.
I think it is safe to say Rays management quit on Maddon and the team LONG before Maddon ‘quit’ on them.
Yes yes YES! Sit out a year, let Fredi Gonzalez prove he’s not worthy. Enter Joe Maddon 2015.
I know, we can’t afford his crazy price tag, but I can only hope those black frames are in ATL.
No matter where Joe Maddon goes he still needs the right horses to pull him. Lou Piniella found that out when he took over the reins of the Chicago Cubs for several years and then quit during a losing season. Good manager and I wish the timing was right so Joe could be the Red Sox Manager.
White Sox need to get rid of hapless Ventura. Maddon would be a nice fix for the South Side instead of the North side.
How did that Pinnela deal with the Cubs turn out.One day Maddon says he isn’t going anyplace next day I’m done.Tell me that’s leadership and isn’t that what your looking for.One guy made a point how many World Series did he take his teams to.None.I think success has gone to Maddons head.
If the Jays can’t get Maddon to manage, maybe they can get Giants assistant GM Bobby Evans to be their GM? The guy has learnt from the best in the business, knows how to win in a small(er) market, and Sabean says he deserves a chance. What’s not to like about the role, with Lind and Buehrle to use in trades, lots of major league ready talent, and a payroll close to that of the Giants ?