The Phillies are willing to cover more of the approximately $88.5MM remaining on Cole Hamels’ contract in a possible trade than they were earlier in the season, WEEI.com’s Rob Bradford reports. What hasn’t changed, however, is Philadelphia’s demand for elite prospect talent in exchange for the ace left-hander.
The shift in negotiating stance is not a surprise, as many pundits assumed that the Phils would eventually bend from their initial demand that a team take on all of Hamels’ salary and also part ways with multiple blue-chip prospects. Bending on the salary demand rather than the prospect return makes sense for a wealthy franchise like the Phillies; adding impact minor league talent is of greater import to a rebuilding team than saving money.
In offering to take on a bit more salary, the Phillies may also be widening the Hamels market to medium-payroll teams who previously may have been unable to absorb the southpaw’s contract. This is purely my speculation, but perhaps this description could fit teams like the Royals or Orioles, or maybe even surprise contenders like the Twins or Astros. The amount of salary the Phillies offer to cover, as well, could vary depending on the team, or what prospects they’d be getting back.
Bradford touches on the Red Sox and notes that the Sox and Phillies have been scouting each other’s major and minor league teams, as Boston has been widely linked to Hamels for months now. Salary wasn’t the main obstacle to a Boston/Philly trade, however, but rather the fact that the Sox were refusing to trade the likes of Mookie Betts or Blake Swihart to Philadelphia. While the Red Sox have several other impressive prospects, it remains to be seen if the Phillies would accept a Sox deal without one of those two players, or if the Phils would turn elsewhere to find their desired prospect return.
Ironically, this news of the Phillies slightly lowering their asking price comes at a time when their bargaining position may be better than ever, considering the number of big-name teams looking for pitching help in the wake of injuries to star hurlers. Additionally, the likes of Johnny Cueto and Scott Kazmir have faced some recent injury problems, which only helps Hamels’ case as possibly both the healthiest and the most accomplished potential trade chip on the pitching market as we approach the July 31 deadline.
Hamels is set to earn roughly $15MM for the remainder of this season, $22.5MM in each of 2016, 2017 and 2018, and the Phillies hold a $20MM club option on his services for 2019 that can be bought out for $6MM (the 2019 option can also vest if Hamels avoids the arm injuries and reaches innings thresholds). Hamels has a 20-team no-trade list, and it has been speculated that he could seek to have his 2019 guaranteed in order to okay a deal to any of those 20 clubs. By this token, the Phillies’ offer to cover more salary could be a way of facilitating some of that extra $14MM for 2019.
do the twins have payroll flexibility?
Yes. The problem with Hamels however, is that the Twins have too many tied up too many pitchers to multiyear contracts Hughes, Nolasco, and Santana. They also have tons of pitching depth, and they don’t want to block JO Berrios. The Twins have will have 8 starters when Santana comes back and Berrios comes up. If they trade trade for a pitcher, it will be for someone who will be a FA this offseason like Scott Kazmir.
Taking Ricky Nolasco, and the $33 million he’s still owed, back in a deal in essence reduces Hamels salary by $33 million for the Twins.
Or Nolasco could be moved to a large market team in need of a #4-5 starter such as the Dodgers in a 3-way deal, where the 3 teams all take on a part of Nolasco’s salary.
Would the Twins offer Sano with Plouffe now playing 3rd so well and hitting so well?
Based on his performance it’s hard to see any team seeing Nolasco as an improvement over what they have
I agree some. But Nolasco is from the LA area and pitched well for them a few years ago. He’s an NL pitcher. The Dodgers wouldn’t have to give up much, and splitting his salary with 2 other teams, he would come cheaper then any of their other starting pitchers.
The Dodgers don’t need a top of the rotation pitcher at this point, especially if they have to pay him over $10M a year and give up quality prospects. They are trying to cut their payroll and they want to keep their cheap young players. They need bottom of the rotation innings eater at a salary under $10M.
They might offer Sano in the right trade, but Sano for Hammels (no matter what the money involved and no matter if they take Nolasco’s contract back as well) would be a massive overpay by the Twins
Might be. But if you go to the end of this thread, you’ll see a Phillie fan brought up that they have plenty of singles hitting prospects, the Phillies need a big bat. Sano would be ideal. A trade would have to expand out from those 2 players.
That would be why I don’t see the Twins being in this after that phone call. Hamels isn’t the only arm available out there. Cueto wouldn’t cost them a prospect anything near the quality of Sano, for example, so I would expect the Twins would immediately move on to another target like that.
Why would three teams take on Nolasco’s deal?… I would consider moving Sano from third and if the right deal comes along pull the trigger
Cueto is a free agent this off season. He is a true number one. If they wanted to go for a high major pitcher Cueto would be the man. Kazmir if they thought a low major pitcher would pyt them over the top
Exactly. If the Twins went big Cueto is the one they’d do it for. I think that goes for a few other teams too. The FA market for starters in the off season is very deep, so there’s little reason to over pay for Hamels just to get the extra years on the contract. You can trade for a stop gap, soon to be free agent; then go out in the free agent market and pick up someone for upcoming seasons
The Twins aren’t going to pay $175 million for Price, Cueto, or Zimmermann in the off-season. There are a limited number of these guys and ever team in the Major Leagues can’t sign one.
I disagree. Cueto is not a number one. He has pitched 200 innings just twice in 8 years. He is great at times, but does not have the reliability to be considered a #1.
With his recent arm issue and the fact that he doesn’t exactly define “workhorse” I don’t consider him a #1 either. However, if he proves to be healthy over the next 30 days he’d be a heck of a rental the 2nd half of the season.
you never have enough pitching depth. Dodgers supposedly had tons of pitching depth going into the year. Not saying i think the Twins are gonna go out and get him , just a counterpoint. Also I was watching Jays/Twins yesterday and Nolasco left in the 2nd with arm discomfort
There you go.
Eating salary is how to get a meaningful return back.
It is what the Dodgers have been doing
Ya but the Dodgers are making smart decisions.
My comment was directed more at Phillies fans.
they think Hamels will demand 2 ++ prospects and no salary relief.
its a joke that anyone will take on 100m when a rental like Scott Kazmir can be had on a prorated amount.
Unless the team is eyeing one of the big FA in the off-season, in which case his salary would be in line with the talent and not have to go 6+ years. Though I wouldn’t be inclined to deal multiple high end prospects
This is really the only way to buy prospects at this point. Im sure the Astros are all over this. Send 4 names that arent Correa.
they won’t be trading for hamels imo
With what reason? If they add 25 million in cash with Hamels he fits the team. Prospects are currency. The Astros are going to spend that much money in the offseason on pitching. They arent going to get a Hamels like talent for that money and they wont be giving up their draft pick.
Phils pick all four Players >
yep, and I dont think Houston would have a problem considering they are adding another 2 or 3 top propsects in next Mondays draft.
Tucker – Santana – McCullers – Appel, Castro, Singleton & Phillips
for
Hamels, Ruiz and Paps + Cash
Thats not going to be enough. I think Appel who has been awful again would be involved, Brett Phillips would absolutely be involved, Singleton, maybe Feliz. Thats really only one top 50 prospect at this point, Singleton would probably still have that value as well. Appel certainly isnt a top 50 prospect anymore, Phillips is. The Redsox can beat most teams deals with Devers ect…
The Astros don’t need Papelbon. Gregerson has 14 saves and their bullpen overall has been lights out. They don’t need Ruiz — Castro and Conger have been fantastic defensively, and have upside on the offense. I doubt Tucker and McCullers would be included in any deal given what I’ve seen already. Appel, Singleton, Santana, Feliz, Phillips are likely available.- the Astros farm system is loaded so I can see a 4 top prospects for Hamels deal.
Stroh….the Astros should not trade prospects for Hamels; they’re probably the best team in the AL West already, they’ve worked so hard to improve internally, that giving away high end prospects is going backwards. The Astros have a chance to be excellent for a number of years; a quick needlessly expensive fix is not needed.
Hamels and 20mil…..to the Yankees for Severino,Judge,Sanchez,Refsnyder,Gerrit Jones…..
Not sure the Yankees make that deal as that kills the farm system. Also on the Phillies side while the top pieces are pretty good the secondary prices are probably lacking.
The Yankees farm is deeper than these four players….and they could let the Phillies choose the secondary pieces….
Judge and severeno would be a big blow to the farm. The Phillies would need more though and would have no interest in Jones and Sanchez really doesn’t have a ton of value and ether does Ref.
You don’t move an ALL-Star , World Series , Money Pitcher Like hamels no matter how many second tier players you throw in , Remember the Bobby Abreu Trade a few years ago , Phils got literally nothing from the Deal and gave up an All-Star Outfielder.
That doesnt even make any sense.
LOL … Very true.
Trading Abreu was addition by subtraction for the Phillies .
Yeah I just can’t see it working , especially now with the Phillies willing to eat more $ which would bring more teams with better farms into it.
Take Judge and Refsnyder out of that offer and add other lesser prospects and maybe the Yankees bite. No reason for the Yankees to trade Judge since he’s the Yankees best position player prospect and Refsnyder will hopefully eventually take over Drew at 2nd.
If you take Judge out the Phillies might balk at the deal….sure you could replace Refsnyder with someone else the Phillies like…..
Then no deal. I like Hamels and all, but the Yankees shouldn’t and won’t trade Judge unless it’s just him and some other non-Severino type package. While Judge could end up being a bust, the Yankees have to be willing to take that chance. They need to develop position players, and they can always add a pitcher in the offseason like Fister, who cares about 2015.
Outfielders are the easiest position to develop and find in general…they would also have Hamels controlled through 2019…which means they won’t have to give Price,Cueto or Zimmerman an outrageous contract…and they care alot about 2015….especially since their division is very winnable….
“Outfielders are the easiest position to develop and find in general”
I think the Mariners would disagree. (Nelson Cruz being the exception)
At least Mariners have Cruz. Phillies not exactly trotting out the league’s greatest outfield, either.
True but look at the last several seasons too since he mentioned development. Over the last Five years, Mariners OFers WAR is only 12.5. The next lowest in baseball is 21.4 (White Sox are 29th and they are the worst this year at -0.6)
Sure the Mariners would be happy to send the Phillies Dustin Ackley
Check back next year to see if Phils sign him as a non-tender.
well they did develop Adam Jones,
They drafted him way back in 2003. Jack Z and Jeff Kingston have only been with the Mariners since 2008 and 2009.
As would Baltimore.
That may be true, but Yanks have had some of their prized OF falter in the recent years. (Tyler Austin, Mason Williams, Slade Heathcott until this year)
And Judge is projected to be better than all three of those.
It’s good to see Mason Williams doing very well again too and he’s still very young (only 23). He can probably crack the top 100 if he keeps up the good hitting and plate discipline (reason I say he may make it is because he was #32 just 2 years ago by BP and last year he even made BA at #82)
Judge is one of the more polarizing young guys to come into the system in awhile. Even if OF’s are easiest to replace, most young players don’t have the presence or raw potential he’s got. It’d be a shame to see him dealt.
He could also be a bust…I guess you would rather it happen with the Yankees than another team….
He could be, but to automatically assume he will be isn’t fair. I’d rather they take the risk to potentially gain the reward. Buying a team only works for spurts of time, at some point, Cashman has to hold onto his young, high upside guys and build the team internally. Judge would be a wonderful place to start.
The guy is 23 in double-a…..I’m not just going to assume he is going to be a bust,but if he’s just on a path to become an average or maybe a little above average major leaguer…than they should probably cash in on him…to help this year’s team…
Remember , just what you said he Projected , not proven player like Hamels. Judge would have a Part of “BIG”Package, Yankees won’t pull trigger because they are use to getting lucky with fading Stars being productive for a few months and then relapsing into declining stars they are. However, this Mentality is finally catching up to them .
That’s now how it works. Every prospect is “projected.” Judge will make the package “BIG” by himself. You can only rate prospects on projections. Obviously he isn’t worth Hamels because he is unproven, however, Judge and any other prospect comes with more years of control with a much lower price tag. That offsets the value provided by the proven star.
This isn’t the Red Sox. We are not desperate for pitching. The rotation is good enough to carry the team.
If “this mentality catching up to them” means first place in the AL East, so be it.
I really dont think this guy understands how trades or prospects works.
That, and he really wants Hamels in NY.
The way he talks about him, you would think Hamels is some sort of god.
I think Hamels is really good but some on here, if challenged, fall back on a non sequitur argument which is what the “fading stars” argument sounded like to me. Hamels is not the only option for the Yankees just as N.Y. is not the only poterntial destination for Hamels.
Yea I agree. I think it would be pretty hard for NY to get Hamels though without giving up too much talent. They guy I was responding to has posted an insane amount of comments related to Hamels and most are absurd and baseless.
In a lost season. contemplating a Hamels’ trade trumps anything happening on the field. Derspite fan impatience, the Phils need to exercise patience in figuring out the team’s next moves.
That’s stupid. Hamels is pretty young and has a reasonable contract. He’d make the Yankees the favorites this year … and next …
It doesn’t sound like Refsnyder can play second, though, and that makes him a second- or third-tier prospect.
Not worth it for either side. The need of a SP isn’t great enough to supply the demand of Amaro here, especially when there’s a wide array of pitchers who are likely able to be had at a fraction of this haul. No need to drain the farm in one move when pitching isn’t even their greatest need right now, let another team with more top level farm depth and a greater need for an ace give up the haul. They should be focusing on what to do with 2B before anything else.
SP is definitely their key to winning the division…Tanaka is a question mark,CC is now a back of the rotation guy,Pineda and Eovaldi are currently stable…they could use an ace to put them over…….
If SP is the key to winning the division, Tampa would be a lock for the AL East. Anyways, Pineda is one of the best pitchers in the division, and may be the best one outside of Tampa. Tanaka is a health concern, but if he can be even what he was early this year, he’s a huge help and a top end guy. Warren has been a heck of a surprise for them in the rotation. Eovaldi has the upside, but is still a back end piece right now. CC too is a back end starter, which is better than they’ve had out of him the past few years. They’ve got Nova coming back soon to add to that. Hamels would be a luxury piece for them right now, if they’re going to look to upgrade, a second tier arm would do just fine, anywhere from Kazmir to Leake would make sense and would cost pennies on the dollar compared to that haul, stacking aces isn’t the only way to win,especially in this weak division.
To be fair, pitching IS the key to winning this division right now but the fact the tampas offence is very very thin, they just wont be able to get it done. Nova is quite unpredictable as well, he can either be great or brutal. Kinda like a clay buchholz. I honestly think the yanks could really use hamels especially when the likes of cueto and price are going to draw 200m contracts next year. Believe me, i dont want the yankees to get hamels, but i think they could really use him.
The real key to winning the division, as it is with any division, is getting the proper mix of pitching and offense, and so far NY has had the best mix of the two(while dealing with Tanaka and Ellsbury injuries). There are certainly teams worse off with pitching who have more to offer than NY right now. I genuinely think, while Hamels will help just about any contending team, that they’d be helped plenty by a modest upgrade like I mentioned. Sure, the top flight guys are going to command big dollars in the open market, but I think they’re staying away from those types of guys this offseason anyway.
I agree with you, but, NY is only 1 game over .500. And I think they need someone to help them pull away or its too risky. The division is absolutely for the taking. The last place red sox are only 4 games out of first place… which can basically be made up in a few days. I think its going to come down to the health of Tanaka in the end.
Agreed, though it doesn’t mean they should throw it all in for Hamels. Especially if (and obviously this is a Big If), Tanaka returns to form. Maybe they go after Kazmir if he’s healthy and if the A’s become sellers.
That’s what I’m getting at. If they feel a pitching upgrade is needed, a Kazmir type(when healthy) would be perfect, and they’d spare themselves quite a bit in the process rather than going all in on Hamels.
Too much. Maybe just one of Severino or Judge along with Sanchez. Not both.
Especially not with Tanaka coming back this Wednesday, and Nova sometime this month.
If the Phillies are holding out for Swihart or Betts plus then they would probably need both those guys. Sanchez has lost a lot of his value.
Maybe, depends on how high the bidding goes.
But I don’t think one of Swihart or Betts is worth both of Severino or Judge. So a package with one of Severino or Judge plus higher secondary pieces than other teams could be a viable offer.
Yea I think both would be good but Betts is clearly more MLB ready (He’s not a prospect anymore so they he would probably be worth more then both, Swihart less so.) You said you would only give up one though and I dont think a deal can be had without for giving up both. I dont know what you mean by the Yanks having high secondary pieces. The Red Sox and plenty of other teams have good secondary pieces.
I didn’t say that.
I’m sure many teams have high secondary pieces, but maybe Yanks can raise their offer by including more higher ranked guys as secondary pieces than other teams. I’m not saying they have the best secondary pieces, but they could beat out other teams if they offer 3 highly ranked secondary pieces.
For example: Judge, Clarkin, Bird, Refsnyder is one great main piece, with three good secondary pieces. It’s an option if they don’t want to part with Judge AND Severino.
For the record, I don’t think they should trade for Hamels, especially not with the aforementioned players. Our pitching is a strength, second to only the nationals in WAR.
If Tanaka comes back and pitches like he is capable, the Yankees might have the best rotation in the division: Tanaka and Pineda are a sudden front 2, CC’s been a decent middle-of-the-rotation arm at times, Warren’s been actually really, really good lately. Eovaldi is a massive project, hopefully Capuano pitches more like the guy he’s been throughout his career and less like the pitcher he’s shown this season and hopefully, Nova comes back and pitches well this season. The best thing would be picking up a big bat but I’m not sure where he would play. The Yankees are kind of tied into a bunch of starters with no trade clauses: Beltran, A-Rod, Teixeira, McCann, Ellsbury. Limits their ability to pick up a player and plug him into the starting line-up. Tulo, with Didi going the other way and Colorado picking up a bunch of his contract?
Sox should just pull the trigger on a mega deal while theyre not too far out of it. It’s either win now or keep throwing these hyped up prospects out on the field that arent really producing.
Top prospects hasn’t been the main issue, it’s been their big trades/free agent acquisitions. Betts has been terrific especially defensively
And the Ortiz Collapse…..
Big Papa needs to take his rings and go to the house!
What does that even mean?
The real question is still for who. With Vazquez out for the year and Hannigan out for extended time Swihart can’t go and Betts’ speed has been one of the bright spots of the Sox offense not to mention his defense.
So unless the Phils agree to something centering around Owens and Devers (still 3 years away from majors despite getting mentioned by a few as a centerpiece) then I still don’t see the Phils and Red Sox making a deal. And frankly if that’s the Sox best offer then I’m sure the Phils could get closer to major league ready talent elsewhere.
I think they have to throw in Eduardo Rodriguez and they won’t do that if they think he can follow his first start with more of the same. Owens stock has dropped a lot due to his command issues, and Cecchini as well. Frankly, they would have to part with Moncada if they want to keep Eduardo .
Well Hamels alone doesn’t solve the Red Sox rotation problems. The truth is they need to hope Rodriguez stays and can replicate that last start.
Not this year, but with Hamel’s under contract and the Phillies eating some money the Sox could go into 2016 with a proven ace and cash to burn in a deep free agent pool next year.
Moncada will not be moved. It would make no sense. There’s no way the Red Sox are selling the farm and dealing Margot, Erod, devers +for hamils
Which is why they have exactly 3 wins more than the Phillies.
Good point!
So the Red Sox should sell the future in a year they are probably not going anywhere for an aging pitcher? I’m glad you are not the gm.
they arent going anywhere because they don’t have the pitching. If they had Hamels and 1-2 other mid-tier starters, they’d actually be winning some games.
Thats sadly not true at this point. The offense has regressed as the pitching has gotten better. Hamels cant save the Red Sox season. Even if they cant get CUeto or Price there still are a ton of good pitchers on the market.
There’s a ton of good pitchers on the Market?
Really? After Hamels, Cueto and you named Price (who I doubt will be traded) – who are all the ton of pitchers you say?
Well I said Hamels (or any other single pitcher) couldnt save the Red Sox season. They are four games back in a weak division. They have showed no life. I was referring to the Red Sox making a run at a pitcher or two in the offseason. Which would include Cueto, Price, Grenkie, Kazmir, Samajijia etc etc. If the Red Sox want to attempt to contend this season then they should go after a pitcher like Kazmir, and not Hamels who will cost way to much.
Well Sean Coyle is a decent trade chip who if packaged with the correct personnel will attract a good return. Sox also have a tremendous amount of pitching. Not saying steven wright will draw in a catch but others such as rodriguez, Johnson and owens might be useful.
‘tremendous’ doesn’t mean what it used to I see.
“Tremendous amount” You can’t really deny they had a lot of pitching depth in their farm going into the season. They’ve already utilized Rodriguez and Wright this year. They still have Owens and Johnson who may also get a call up sometime this year.
Maybe Ruiz to Boston too then. Assuming that the Sox traded Swihart in a deal.
Good point. In fact that might even make the deal better for Boston. One theory behind how bad the Red Sox starting staff is some people have observed a lack of comfort between the starters and the constantly changing catchers. Perhaps a vet like Ruiz could pull something together.
Agreed, Boston to slow move. Move on Phillies to more teams.
Ruiz is 38 though so thats very old as far as catchers go.
I don’t know if the Sox are interested in Ruiz or not, but the fact is he’s 36, not 38. He’ll be 37 in January.
You are right. 36 is still pretty old for a catcher. Hes not the kind of player to convince you to move Stawhart
Sox arent parting with betts or swihart, theyve made that clear.
I didn’t say they were.
“assuming that the sox traded swihart in a deal”
Assuming does not mean I think it is going to happen. I never said they are doing it. I said they could part with Swihart if they got Ruiz.
You realize this was in response to start_wearing_purple who first mentioned his name and said the Sox can’t lose him, but he even agreed with me that Ruiz is a good replacement IF the Sox were to deal Swihart.
And just because the front office says something doesn’t mean they will stick to that decision. Remember when Ruben said he wasn’t going to eat any of Hamels’ salary?
Yes but lets not compare ruben to the red sox management with all due respect. Also, i agree with you having ruiz on the sox would definitely be an upgrade for them
The Sox can make a better offer than Owens and Devers without going all the way up to Betts/Swihart. How about Castillo and/or Moncada?
The Sox just spent $63M including tax on Moncada which also took them out of the international prospect market for 2 years.
People need to stop thinking Moncada is a trade chip.
Owens/Devers is a decent place to start. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect Rusney or Moncada to be considered in trades.
Phils move on from Red Sox, Boston has had months to put together a Package for an Elite pitcher , now there in a downward spiral when it could have been stopped with a proven winner at the top.
The Red Sox aren’t one (Hammels) move away from respectability. Even with Hammels they would still be a bad team. There are just too many holes.
Please just stop. Its really embarrassing at this point.
As long as the Phils and Red Sox scout each other, the story isn’t going away.
I agree but for different reasons, the Sox should trade for Hamel’s now even though it probably won’t get the 2015 Sox into the playoffs. Next year a lot of money comes off the books potentially, and with Hamel’s under contract the Sox could really build an elite rotation.
Imaging a rotation with Hamel’s and Cueto, or say Hamel’s and Zimmerman at the top.
Hamels is not going to the Red Sox. Period.
The Red Sox have the #2 rated prospect pool behind the Cubs, and if they’re smart and sell high now Hamel’s is theirs for the taking. No other team but the Cubs can touch the Red Sox offer.
Most of the Red Sox prospects are untouchable and the Phillies don’t like Owens, the player people who draw up trade scenarios insist they trade for.
It’s going to take either Swihart or Rodriguez most likely. Thing is if Rodriguez pitches anywhere close to his high ceiling the Red Sox have an ace already.
Red Sox won’t trade either
I agree, they’d be nuts to give up on Rodriguez with his ceiling and catching prospects are rare.
Boston always over-hype prospects, Hamels goes to Dodgers in some kind of Mega Deal. Perfect for him, Great for Dodgers and Beneficial for Phillies. Start package from Urias.
MLB scouts rank the Red Sox farm system as the #2 in depth not the Red Sox ownership.
So wait you jump all over the Red Sox for not moving top prospect but then say the Dodgers are trading Urias? There has been just as many reports of Urias not getting traded as Betts or Swihart.
Agree that Hamels end up in LA and that Urias headlines the deal. I expect LA to re-sign Greinke. If I’m wrong about Greinke and he opts out, the Dodgers can still make a
strong run this year and already have Greinke’s replacement in the fold. That will take the pressure off of having to land Price or Cueto in free agency.
When you add Hamels to a rotation with Kershaw and Greinke you immediately have the best 1-2-3 in baseball. With Ryu and McCarthy expected back next year and 5 of the LA’s top ten prospects pitchers, Urias becomes expendable.
Anything short of a WS appearance, if not victory is considered an unsuccessful season for the Dodgers. Going all in this year makes total sense.
Exactly. The upgrade from Hamels to Rodriguez isn’t much at all, and the cost would be so much higher.
One game…hahahaha…too funny. Just curious, what happens if Rodriguez gets shelled next time out?
I’ve watched him pitch in the International League. Guys that pitch that well tend to do well in the Majors as well. Go back and check his AAA numbers. Of course Hamels is better right now. But he’s not a “Swihart” better than Rodriguez, which is really the point here.
Rodriguez has made one good start and now he’s an ace? Boston fans believe all the teams prospects are future all stars. It wasn’t too long ago that JBJ was an untouchable and a future all star. Then last year he hit .198 with a .531 OPS. What did Cherington do? He signed Ramirez to play LF and Castillo to play CF and Bradley’s back in the minors.
Its not wise to trade prospects during a losing season.
You forgot about former Red Sox prospects the likes of John Lester, Hanley Ramirez, Dustin Pedroia, Iglesias. Even going farther back to the prospects of Babe Ruth, Jim Rice, Yaz, Fred Lynn, Cy Young.
I could list a few more once promising Red Sox prospects of the past but I think you catch my drift.
Why do you keep saying that? No one in the Red Sox farm right now is untouchable. They are not one player away from world series glory. Get over yourself.
If the Red Sox were offering more then anyone else possibly can, Hamels would have been with the Red Sox months ago.
You’re 100% correct. Both teams need to look for other trade partners for their needs.
Like I said the whole time. 8-10teams can afford Hamels contract. Phillies being one of them. Good luck getting Elite prospect back on a salary dump because those 8-10 teams know w/o paying a bunch of Hamels contract, they’re the only competition to get him.
Start offering to pay 25% of his salary to 50% of his salary and teams like Minnesota/Kansas City/Pittsburgh/Miami can suddenly discuss acquiring him.
Yankees should go for Papelbon, Howard, Utley and Hamels in a mega deal for Headley, Refsnyder, Severino,, Sanchez and Bird. Phillies save about 200 million less the Headley money they take on which is spread out over more years than Howard, Utley and Papelbon, and they get some decent prospects. Ref can replace Utley and Headley can play 1B or 3B. Sanchez and Severino are close to MLB ready. Sanchez is blocked by McCann.
Arod can move to 3B to replace Headley, Utley to 2B. Judge will soon be taking a spot in the OF. Howard can DH and back up Teix, with Teix, Arod and Howard all getting some DH time (Arod DH when Howard plays 1B or sits against a tough LHP’er). Drew can backup 3B, SS and 2B.
Yankees could afford it given making the playoffs is worth about 70 million per year to them according to the WSJ and their percentage of revenue spent on payroll is at a 20 yr low. They could be spending another 75 million each year if their payroll kept up with revenue inflation and the percentage was comparable to 2005-2008
my head hurts
There’s not enough pieces going back to philly. Hamels is worth Severino, Sanchez, Bird + alone. A-Rod playing the field is a bad idea health wise. Ref for Papelbon and $$$ is a quality trade if added with a C-Level prospect coming from NYY. Howard and Utley with $$$ is going to net 2-B level prospects in terms of value. ( not saying then combined right now is going to net that but probably in that value range). headley is intriguing but doubt NYY trades fresh off the contract. The idea isn’t bad but the package going to Philly is, Considering they’re a big market team with a lot of incoming and current cash that doesn’t need to save money. They’re not here to save dimes, they want talent back.
There is already waaaaaaaaaay too much talent going back to Philly. They would be lucky to get one of those players if the Yankees are taking Howard and Utley back. Unless of course, the Phillies throw in $80M or something like that.
Why would the Yankees want Utley who’s even worse than Drew is right now, Howard who is a below average, over the hill DH when the Yankees already have guys like A-Rod, Beltran, and Jones who are way better players to play there, Papelbum and his bush league attitude on a team that doesn’t tolerate that. This trade gives almost zero value to the Yankees. Hamels isn’t close to being worth giving up all those prospects (overrated or not) and taking all the Phillies garbage.
I think this comment deserves to be deleted from how terrible it is.
Couldn’t agree more…yahoo/finance used to have a great ‘ignore’ feature that really wish disqus would add, esp as this site gets more popular.
Agreed !
Wow, where to start..First off, NY doesn’t need another top flight bullpen piece, they just need to find effective supplemental pieces to Betances and Miller. Bringing in Howard is entirely useless, as they already have a problem having 2 DHs(A-Rod and Beltran) and have to field one as it is. Utley has expressed no interest in leaving Phillie, and he’s been pretty bad this year anyways. While Hamels would be a nice add for any team, they don’t need an ace badly enough to give up this kind of haul. On the flip side, there still wouldn’t be enough going back to the Phillies, and this would almost gut NY’s system(with the exception of Judge) as it is, and as nice as it is to buy a team, Hal and Cashman finally seem to get that the only way to sustain success for a stretch is to work on building a young core internally, then spend the money and supplement that. This deal just does not add up for either side
Wut? Lol.
What? Arod play 3rd? No way. Trade Headly? What? Why would the Phillies want him? The Phillies are gonna trade away the only pieces they have left and not even get judge? Why would the Yankies want Utley who is doing awful? Why would they want Howard when they have arod and tex? Why would they want Papalbon when they have miller and a great bullpen.
This is why the other countries are winning people.
Since the Sox and Yanks may battle it out for Hamels and Pap here’s mine:
Add Galvis(SS) and Giles to the trade for Philly –lets trade.
Red Sox—- Bogaerts, Owens, Barnes,Margot, ( Hanley/Pablo, Vic, Nap—these three or four for salary relief) Substitute names if you wish .
Philly—-Hamels, Pap, Giles, Galvis, Utley and Howard -Utley can be your PH, back-up 1 B or 2 B–maybe even platoon with Hanley in LF.
Line-up: Pedroia, Galvis, Betts, Pablo, Hanley, Ortiz, Swihart, -Howard/Craig(1B), JBJ( RF)
Rotation: Hamels, ERod, Porcello, Johnson, Buch, Miley.
(Wright/ Kelly/ Masterson–Sent down, Traded or DFA)
Pen: Koji, Pap, Giles,Taz, Layne, Breslow–Miley 6 th starter/swing man
Bench: Holt, Utley, Leone, Witte (AA) or Brentz (AAA)
Non of that made any sense….to anyone…ever..
Can I get some of what you’re smoking?
This is probably the worst trade offer I have ever seen. Howard’s insane negative value is so huge that it almost negates Hamels’ positive value. That’s why they won’t ever be traded together. If the Phillies traded Hamels Utley, Howard and Papelbon in the same deal, they would probably have to eat $70-80M to get any sort of good prospect return. If not they might be lucky to get two decent prospects.
Diamondbacks are fringe wild card contenders, and have the prospects if they want to make a deal. New TV deal also should boost payroll to fit him in. Hamels could push them into contention in my opinion. Plus anchor the rotation for the next several years.
The Diamondbacks are not contenders.
Fringe wild card contenders? So basically fighting to get to .500?
DBacks are a very real option for Hamels.
If the Dbacks were to acquire Hamels then they would have a rotation of Hamels, Corbin, Bradley, De La Rosa, Anderson/Collmenter/Helickson. That is not to shabby. Not elite, but could contend. David Hernandez is coming back soon and should help the bullpen with perhaps 1-2 of the three aforementioned starters sliding into the bullpen as well. Reed, Ziegler, Hernandez, Perez, Delgado, Hudson, Chafin, Collmenter/Anderson could be serviceable as well. And we all know that the Diamondbacks offense is top notch, having scored the 2nd most runs in MLB to date. and the return of Lamb should only make it that much better. So you see, It is not hard to imagine that with a few moves the Diamondbacks could compete with the Pirates, Padres, Mets, Cubs, and Giants for the 2 wild card spots.
Cole Hamels has to agree to GO to the theoretical small market team that becomes interested if the Phillies eat enuf money (the Phil’s would likely need to eat even more since he would likely require his option to be guaranteed)
No one seems sure what all 9 teams he can’t block a deal to are. Angels, Dodgers, Cardinals, Padres, Yankees, Rangers, Cubs have been reported this year as teams he CAN NOT block a trade to (The Red Sox apparently were added to his block list. Possibly because they seemed most possible and he wanted leverage for guaranteeing the option) there would still be two teams since that is 7 out of 9. The Braves and Nationals were on the list he couldn’t block a deal to last year. Not sure if they still are, but either team is an unlikely partner.
The Phillies eating more money would make any team happy, but it probably most impacts the Cards, Padres, and Rangers. Supposedly Texas and Philly were close but couldnt agree on money before.
Dodgers should just pull the trigger on Hamels. Darnell Sweeney, Chris Reed, Zachary Byrd and Scott Barlow. Depending how much money Philly throws in the deal maybe even Scott Schebler. Scott can play first allowing Phiily to trade Howard.
The Phillies say no to that deal…..add Urias and start from there…..
I don’t see them parting ways with Urias, Seager, Holmes, or Verdugo. Philly needs starting pitching now, maybe the likes of Zach Lee as well Zachary Byrd. Both of whom can actually be starting pitchers this season. Gives the Phillies time to develop Nola a bit longer.
There is not going to be a trade of Hamels to either LA area team. The Angels lack the prospects to entice the Phillies and the Dodgers are too top heavy. Take away urias and seager and there isnt another prospect in the farm that can headline a deal. You can get a better prospect going five deep into Boston or the Cubs than going 3 deep into LA. Let alone some of the fringe garbage you are sending for Hamels
Ya that’s just not enough. I’m not drinking Cole Hamels Kool-Aid but that’s still too light.
Its absolutely too light. Its why the Dodgers and Phillies dont match up. The Dodgers have 2 top 10 prospects and then a huge drop off in talent.
I believe that the dodgers will be the team to pony up and grab hamels if the phillies are going to eat some of the contract to get the prospects back they want, then I think Urias will be the main piece. Hamels would put them over the top to win the division and possibly odds favorite to win the world series, and then they would have insurance incase greinke opts out which I believe he will, look at the year he is having while kershaw is looking human and not like he’s superman.
What have the Dodgers done to make you think saving money will get them to send better prospects?
The Friedman-led Dodgers are not the Coletti-led Dodgers.
I look for them to get a #3-5 starter at a reasonable cost.
Gaza ?
I agree the Dodgers seem like the most likely landing spot for Hamels. If Phils eat enough salary to get Cole down to $10 million a year, Dodgers could definitely put together a package to satisfy the Phillies. Would, the Phillies put up enough cash to get Hamel’s contract down to $10 million per year? Absolutely, if it maximizes the package, IMHO.
First, the Phillies would never eat more than half of Hamels’ contract. Second, no team would be willing to pay the price in prospects for Cole Hamels at $10 mil/year.
I think they will do anything possible to maximize their return for Cole, including eating more than half his salary. It will be much easier for RAJ and Gilllick to sell to the fans a trade where they get top talent and eat a big chunk of change, than get lesser talent and eat less. They simply have to get some big names back or they will not do a deal. We’ll have to agree to respectfully disagree on this one.
I don’t disagree that they will eat some money to get better prospects in return, but do disagree on the amount. Especially because once you’re talking about making Cole Hamels a $10 mil/year pitcher, you’re talking about the asking price being ridiculous to the point that the team trading for Cole would not want to give up the caliber of prospects the Phils would be asking for. At $10 mil/year, I’d expect the Phils to ask for a package including Seager AND Urias plus a couple lesser pieces and I don’t see the Dodgers doing that whether Cole cost them $10 mil/year or $20 mil/year.
I definitely hear you and respect your opinion. I guess time will tell.
Look the rangers want hamels because their starting rotation Ned’s help right now and we are hot offensively because of Hamilton being back and we need hamels and Jon Daniels knows it too and Ruben amaro jr said that he will pay most of cole hamels salary and the rangers will only give up Alfaro Lewis and some cash to get him. For the rangers that’s a huge improvement to the rotation for this year and beyond and this is what I mean:
Yu Darvish
Cole Hamels
Yovani Gallardo
Derek Holland
Wandy Rodriguez
That’s an improvement and for the phillies it’s for the future for their team and hamels doesn’t need to go to the dodgers or to Houston or to Minnesota because he will be coming to Arlington and pitch for the rangers this year because the rangers are hot right now and we need him so Jon Daniels pick up the phone and call Ruben up and ask for cole hamels so that we can go after him
Gallardo/Wandy are free agents at the conclusion of this year.
Daniel. What?
1. Darvish. may never pitch again
2. Hamels would cost Rangers big time
3. Gallardo is FA at end of yr
4. Holland at this pt is injured journeyment
5. Rodriguez is a recyclable .
They want Gallardo and Rodriguez for next year and they want hamels so watch the rangers pick up the phone and go after him and trade Lewis and Alfaro
The Astros need to make a serious push for Hamels. Send them Michael Feliz, Brett Phillips, Domingo Santana and Jandel Gustave. I wouldn’t mind seeing them deal Appel somewhere in the deal (not in addition to the above), but I wonder if the Phillies would be interested.
I think the Phillies would be interested in that. I’m not sure to what extent, but they might want a ‘head-liner’ type position player.
I think Santana and Phillips are both headline types. Santana is a top 100 prospect currently killing AAA pitching and Phillips almost surely will be top 100 when they re-rank everyone after the draft. Feliz is our top pitching prospect, except for Appel. IMO whoever trades for Hamels has to give at least 3 top 10 organization prospects plus a throw in player.
Domingo Santana is a former Philly farmhand, so I have to think they know quite a bit about him already. Santana strikes out an awful lot, his defense is fringey, they’ve already burnt through 2 options of his.. The power is real, but everything beyond that is kind of a question mark. He’s kind of Nelson Cruz with less certainty imo.
Phillips is a good player. I’d like to see him get to AA/AAA and continue to be successful, but ya he’s definitely interesting.
Feliz is very good.
I think you’re on the right track, I just wonder what Philly is looking for. Because Feliz is the best player in the deal (I think), and I think Philly is targeting an impact position player.
I agree with everything here. I just don’t know if the Phillies are looking for position players or pitching. I think they need to just get as much as possible no matter pitching or position because they are so far away from competing.
As an Astros fan I want to see them take Santana back from us. I think he’s a AAAA player. He has the tools to be solid, but he has a ton of swing and miss in his game and that’s the last thing the Astros need. I also think Feliz, Appel, Stassi and Teoscar Hernandez are not going to pan out. Feliz might as a late inning reliever though. Appel I’m not giving up on, but I’m not counting on him. Stassi doesn’t have the offense. Teoscar is a lot like Domingo.
If the Phillies are smart IMO they should make sure to get one or two of McCullers, Preston Tucker, Phillips, Fisher, Hader and Kemp. I love those guys. I think the Phils will and should demand McCullers or Tucker. I don’t think we’ll give up McCullers though because that won’t help our SP depth which is the problem to begin with.
Appel is no longer our top pitching prospect. Hes been down right awful the past month. Im starting to believe hes going to be a reliever. We are talking about a 4 year starter at Stanford who is still not striking batters out and getting hit hard in double A.
Would the Phillies be interested in Jake Marisnick as a part of the deal?
Honestly, I’m not sure. I don’t follow the Phillies too too much, but I imagine they think highly of Herrera (their current CF). Much of Marisnick’s value is tied to playing good defense in CF, so I don’t know if that’s a fit.
Very true. His bat has majorly cooled off. I’d like a Springer, Tucker and Marisnick OF next year, but I could see Jake or Preston getting flipped.
Preston gets flipped for Harang type pitcher, nothing more !
I think Marisnick is probably going to be the centerfielder for the Astros. They value defense as much as the bat. I dont think Preston Tucker has as much value as us Astros fans think. Hes not a headliner. Hes been up for 2 weeks.
I’m a Phils fan and while Herrera’s been a pleasant surprise, I don’t believe the team believes in any of their current OF’s as long term solutions. It’s very possible that by 2017/18 Revere is gone (they’re looking to trade him this year), Herrera is either a utility player or possibly the long term solution at 2B and Domonic Brown is out of baseball completely.
The Phils just brought Asche back up from AAA after getting a crash course in playing LF. They’d like to see him make it but have been disappointed in his bat so far. Francoeur is obviously just a stop gap for this year. Amaro’s said repeatedly that Ruf is not an every day OF. The Phils would love to get back a power hitting OF as all 3 OF spots are up for grabs and the team has zero power.
Yes, although he’s a great center fielder , doesn’t seem to have a steady Major League bat. A part of package I would Guess. The Big Problem I think of possible trade to Houston that Hamels might not like Texas as a destination. Without accepting his option year.
Texas has no state income tax. Hamels could save a lot of money going there.
After all these rumors with hamels, I still believe he will be with the dodgers
Dodgers are going in a direction – keeping their young players, getting the payroll under the luxury tax.
That Andrew Heaney for Howie Kendrick deal really kept prioritized youth and payroll…
The Dodgers “direction” is to win as many games as possible over the next X number of years, and their secondary direction is to win as many as they can over the next Y years and their tertiary direction is for the next Z years and we don’t know what X, Y, and Z stand for because we’re not them and we don’t know just how they’re balancing the short- versus medium- versus long-term.
While that sounds profound on first reading, tell me a team that doesn’t apply to.
It’s not profound, it’s stupid. But it’s true, which is at least better than what the person I was responding to said, which was false. Something like the Dodgers are all about getting younger and maybe also saving money, which totally neglected the Jimmy Rollins and Howie Kendrick trades of a few months ago.
And my thing might actually not apply to some of the junkier franchises, but that’s not something I want to compile a list on…
Trading Eflin and Windle for Rollins (10MM to play SS this year) wasn’t a youth or save money initiative either. Eflin’s been looking pretty good at AA. Windle not so much.
Was eating more money ever really the problem? I guess it depends on how much money Amaro wants to eat on the deal, but other than potentially getting more small to middle market teams involved…I don’t see how this changes things.
If they are willing to eat more money of the contract and getting the prospects they want back in return I guess it’s what they have to do.
Agreed. I wonder if this is even a story.
I’ve read over 6 months of Hamels rumors now, and don’t see where anything has really changed. A few months ago an outlet said that the Phillies had agreed to pay all of Howard’s salary other then $5M a year. Considering his RBI total of 2014 I couldn’t figure out why at that price at least a few AL teams didn’t jump on that to DH him – even just against RH pitching. Then another story came out a few weeks later stating that the Phillies had no intention of eating much of Howard’s salary.
And that is pretty much what I was logging on to say…. Rumors are rumors and they seem to change from month to month. A month or so ago when asked RAJ simply said everything is possible and if eating some $$ gets them the package they want they may do it. Unless something is publicly said by the Phillies front office it’s still just a rumor. With all of these “proposals” out there from fans and media alike I still don’t see a trade happening unless it is a three team trade ala David Price with a bit more going to the Phillies because of more years of control for Hamels.
I wonder how much the previous Cliff Lee trades have played into the Phillies’ thinking. RA may feel he’s got to get the best the trading team has to offer so as not to get second guessed when second tier prospects turn out to be just prospects
As usual Yankees over value their players.
Are the Yankees featured prominently in this piece? Are they mentioned at all?
I think the Orioles could afford the contract and use him in the rotation but I dont think they have the prospects for it. Maybe Mike Wright and Dariel Alvarez are enough?
Most of the trade scenarios covered by the media don’t help the Phils. The Red Sox, for example, are not going to trade Betts, and Swihart is a singles hitter, which the Phils don’t need because most of their team is filled with singles hitters. Their backup catcher, Rupp, is a power hitter and above average defensive catcher who, if given the chance to play regularly, would probably be a better alternative than Swihart, considering the Phils needs. It’s also a mistake to think a gaggle of Double-A prospects are what the Phils need at this stage of their rebuilding efforts. The Phils have very little in the way of offensive energy and power at this moment, and it will be difficult to access the abilities of their youngsters, like Revere, Herrera, Galvis, Asche and Hernandez, if there is no one on the team who can bring these guys in when they get their singles and get on base. Trading Hamels to the Dodgers for Yasiel Puig would help both the Phils and the Dodgers. It would give the Dodgers their world series now and give the Phils a quicker chance to rebuild effectively. The Dodgers can afford Hamels, and the Phils have the ability to cover part of his salary to acquire a player like Puig.
Interesting scenario.
If the Dodgers do that then they’ve soured on Puig. Combined with Uribe gone, that leaves the Dodgers with no RH power bats in the line-up. Maybe that’s what Friedman wants.
If the Phillies are looking at a young cheap power bat, consider Sano from the Twins.
Mattingly’s displeasure with Puig’s “baseball immaturity” is fairly well known… I do not see Ryno as being any more accepting of it either… nor the Phillies fans. Look at the displeasure many of the fans had with Jimmy Rollins nicknaming him J-Pop and Jimmy-Jogs for his many pop-ups and tendency to jog to first base on ground balls. Ryno and Charlie even benched him for such antics. I am just not certain about that scenario and how well it would play out. I know there are many people out there who brush aside the idea of “team chemistry” but recent history is filled with teams of superstars that go nowhere while teams with less talent (on paper anyway) advance often citing things like “we win because we’re a team, we believe in ourselves, we believe in the manager’s philosophy” etc.
I wouldn’t say Swihart is just a single’s hitter, he’s been thrust into an everyday role somewhat early. However, if the Phil’s want power hitters then they should be smart to try for a package from the Red Sox build around Rafael Devers, Henry Owens, and Sam Travis. Devers has been compared to a skinnier Pablo Sandoval and Travis, being a first basemen, really only has to rake to be considered valuable (which he is doing).
Swihart will eventually hit for some power. He was rushed to the majors as a result of the injuries to Vazquez and Hanigan. In my opinion he has acquitted himself well under the circumstances.
I agree, however, that a Red Sox trade makes zero sense.
I agree Hamels to Sox is looking unlikely. They may actually be sellers by the time the deadline rolls around. What prospects do you think it
would it take for the Sox to land Cueto at the deadline if they are still in the race?
I don’t think the Red Sox will be in the race. Their offense is mediocre, and the only answer is to wait for their younger prospects to develop.
Agreed
And if they don’t develop!
If the Sox prospects don’t develop, then they will be mediocre for a long time. It is essentially impossible to contend without at least some contributions from your farm system.
Cubs send:
Javier Baez (2B/SS)
CJ Edwards (Cubs #5 prospect)
Billy McKinney (Cubs #6 prospect)
Albert Almoria (Cubs #7 prospect)
Dan Vogelbach (Cubs #25 prospect)
Phillies send:
Cole Hamels
Johnathan Papelbon (Does he have a NTC? Might have to grantee next year)
McKinney and Vogelbach are killing it at AA and should be promoted to AAA soon. CJ Edwards is currently a power arm closing also at AA and is being groomed to set-up or close at the major league level. He would be a great combo with Giles. Baez is hitting .306 at AAA with 5 HR’s after missing most of the month of April. Almoria has lost some luster but with a crowded OF in Chicago is expandable and still considered a prospect. We can also send Travis Wood if you need a warm body to eat some innings.
Hamels immediately becomes the Cubs 1/2 with Lester. Pap fortifies the bullpen moving Rondon to setup. Cubs are instant wild card favorites and even catching SL is still possible. Cubs can also eat all the $.
WAYYYYYYYYYY TO MUCH….take out almora and mckinnley and add a prospect or 2 in the 10-20 range
Meh. It’s certainly quantity over quality. There’s some decent pieces there but if the Cubs are going to pull it off without any elite talent, it would probably take something like this. Looks pretty reasonable to me.
You guys need to stop thinking Quantity over Quality, Phils where burnt with the Bobby Abreu Trade , they literally got nothing back in that Quantity trade. Apples for Apples.
The Bobby Abreu trade for a glorified salary dump, and everyone know that.
That was in 2006. They have nothing in common. Apples for Apples? Your comparing Apples and fish.
No , Bobby was troublemaker on Phils , No Leader and only worried about his stat’s.
I dont even understand where you are going with this?
What does that have to do with anything? Are you arguing with yourself?
I actually think phili might still reject it. They would have to be overwhelmed which this does. I’d rather trade Castro (and the rest) and keep baez Rather then trade Baez and keep almoria but I doubt phili would be interested in him unless they flip him to the mets.
Did not know cj was promoted. Only one step away for him!
the trade looks like 3 under performing names with huge question marks and a guy who will never play anything other than DH. The deal would start with Schwarber more than likely.
schwarber is an untouchable, his bat will be as good as bryant’s
Hes also not a catcher and will end up being a poor left fielder. Bryant plays third base. The Redsox will more than likely offer Devers and Margot who after the start of this season are right in line with Schwarber. The Cubs have hitting depth and no starting pitching coming.
your comparing to single A scrubs to schwarber whos hit .337 with 30 hrs in 117 MILB games in his career….get real
Carl Edwards Jr is with Iowa now. Has been since Friday.
I think that’s a good trade for both teams! Sox would need to send Betts, Owens, and Moncata to match that deal.
That’s an insane amount of talent for the Cubs to give up. I would be shocked if they moved Baez at all for Hamels, let alone with multiple other great prospects.
You have to wonder what took so long. There wasn’t a writer on this site or a poster who believed the Phillies could land blue chip prospects AND get somebody to take on the entire contract of Hamels. I would hope for the Phillies sake Amaro wasn’t still insisting on that until very recently. I can’t remember a time in recent history when a top-tier player like Hamels who was signed to a market value contract was traded for top prospects without the old team eating some of the contract.
They thought they could sell him to the Red Sox, where the money wouldn’t be a major issue, but Boston refused to part with the top talent. Now we see why. The Sox offense is mediocre, still at least a year from contending, and they will NEED every prospect they can find who can hit.
The Phillies are not realistic as they expect too much. I would not deal with them.
and what team do YOU represent?
Please! Phillies got an All-Star pitcher who contact is going to look real Good come October when Big Bucks days start with Cueto, Zimmerman and Price .
Every now and then the Red Sox should consider trading their prospects when they’re value is peaking. JBJ, Bogaerts and WMB didn’t turn into the stars they were supposed to be.
Because trading Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, Jed Lowrie, and Brandon Moss has worked out so well for them.
Rizzo for Gonzalez would have worked out a little better if the Red Sox didn’t just dump Gonzalez a year and a half later. Gonzalez hasn’t been as good a Rizzo but hes been a consistently above average bat and his performance so far this year has actually matched Rizzo.
Keeping Rizzo would’ve been a lot better than trading for Gonzalez.
1) he’s a better hit
2) he’s worlds cheaper
That turned out to be a terrible trade, it was a trade for the present with no regard for the future. Very similar to what a Hamels deal would be.
Too early to tell on Bogaerts. Look at Anthony Rizzo. Another Red Sox prospect that came into the league at 21. Rizzo took a few years to develop into a star. Bryce Harper was slight disappointment until this year. 21/22 year old prospects that make an immediate impact are the exception not the rule. Maybe seeing Trout’s ascent has given Angel fans unrealistic expectations on prospects.
Bogaerts is 22. WMB was always gonna be a hit or miss prospect.
I am a Red Sox fan. Swihart or Betts are much more valuable than a Hamels on the downside. The Phillies are in dreamland.
That’s the reason your team has won a total of three more games than the Phillies , get real. Downside, Hamels is better than all of your starters combined.
Gif tips is not a Red Sox fan. No team fan starts off with ” I’m a blah fan”, then proceeds to make a ridiculous statement. Just check his Disqus account, it’s loaded with NY Giant comments and no other Sox comments.
Hamels is not gonna turn this team. Around. He would cost way too much. He is an aging nicely compensated pitcher. All you seem to do is put down the Red Sox. Its getting kinda annoying.
Since when is Hamels on his downside?
Hamels is in his physical prime. He’s never thrown harder or better in his career than he has the last 2 1/2 seasons.
He’s shown a similar aging curve to Cliff Lee.
Don’t feed the trolls.
I am so unimpressed watching Betts play.
You could have left out the first sentence because we could have gotten it from the context. I’m also going to guess it’s homework night for you.
does anybody really trust the Phillies scouting department to actually identify and acquire GOOD players?! i sure dont.
Yes, that Pat Gillick guy can’t judge talent.
Hamels for JBJ and Barnes.
People at this site have to start realizing these comments aren’t by Red Sox fans.
Yea the logic is so circular.
Harang, thats all !
hahaha…never lose that sense of humor
Phillies to Cubs:
Cole Hamels / Papelbon / Ben Revere or Dom Brown / Cash
CUBS:
1B) Rizzo
2B) Russell
SS) Castro
3B) Bryant
C) Montero
LF) Revere or Brown
CF) Fowler
RF) Soler
P) Hamels / Lester / Arrieta / Hammel / Wada / Hendricks
RP) Papelbon / Rondon / Grimm / Strop / Russell / Ramirez / Jackson
Cubs to Phillies:
Baez / Schwarber / Mckinney / Almora / Wood / Edwards OR Black.
As a Phils fan, I would do that. Cubs fans can give their opinion on whether they would do it.
no way the front office is trading 3 1st round picks….schwarber is absolutely an untouchable…this has to be from a philly fan….so far beyond realistic
Why is Schwarber untouchable? Hes going to be playing left field. Almora and Baez have not lived up to their expectations.
almora is 21 years old a little quick on the trigger for that comment. Schwarber will be a catcher if they were moviing him to lf he’d be in the majors already
Baez has 52 major league games under his belt. 52. As a 21 year old. It’s ridiculous that people are assuming he’s a bust after such a tiny sample size. He’s insanely talented, with the most ridiculous bat speed. How about we give him more than 2 months in the majors before declaring that he “hasn’t lived up to expectations”.
Wayyyyyyy to much going to Philadelphia.
You’re offering 4 top 100 prospects plus a former top 100 prospect, plus Travis Wood.
An ACE Pitcher (Hamels)
A Top 5 Closer (Papelbon)
A much needed speed guy in LF (Revere)
CASH – Lots of it….
Phillies get back “prospects” and a Pitcher that has been taken out of the rotation because of his +5.00 ERA. Baez the king of K’s – McKinney & Almora (both are 2+ years away) and Edwards (another bullpen piece in AA) – Schwarber is the ONLY player that could be starting for the Phillies and Wood by default.
The Cubs instantly leap-frog both the Pirates and Cardinals by adding these 3 players – If they really want to go “All-IN” – this is how they do it, and they don’t lose Bryant or Russell in the deal….
The Cubs have a chance to take advantage of the Cardinals, Nationals and Dodgers injuries.
Hamels for my old used clothing and the spare parts I have no use for
-Red Sox Fan
Deal
Hamels and Giles for Betts.
Only if the Phillies pay all of Hamels salary for the remainder of his contract.
When Bob Dylan joins One Direction
Look at the Red Sox current situation. No other team would get this much slack (beside the Yankees) for not moving young players for an aging pitcher when they are 7 games below 500.
I think Kazmir will be a better bargain than Cueto whether in a trade or new contract. He is not as dominant but good numbers if he can stay healthy and overall projected to be cheaper than Cueto or Hamels. I think Cueto’s contract will be in the stratosphere next year making him less desirable to many teams.
Kazmir has pitched 200 innings once in his career and that was 2007. It’s funny when people talk about Kazmir their comment is always qualified by the statement “if he can stay healthy”. What’s happened over the course of his career to suggest he will going forward?
Cueto’s s been healthier than Kazmir but has only reached 200 innings twice in his career. For the money Cueto’s going to be asking for he better not have a flare up of the shoulder that cuased him to miss a game this year. If he lands on the DL this year, even with tendinitis, it will cost him this winter.
I wouldn’t call Schwarber “elite”, but he’s definitely a top 20 prospect in all of baseball. His bat is amazing and the Phils will have a space at 1B if/when they trade Ryan Howard. Of course he’s currently a catcher, but he probably will move to LF or 1B eventually. Schwarber, C.J. Edwards and 1 of Almora/McKinney/Vogelbach gets it done I’d say. Cubs taking on most/all of the salary. Phillies get 2 top 100 prospects and a top 20 prospect. Seems pretty fair.
Schwarber would be the headliner and I cant see him sticking around even if he is traded for a rental. The Cubs like the Astros are drafting bats because they are more sure things. These assets become tradable. There was much more of a need for the Cubs to reach for a pitcher in last Junes draft. The Cubs have money also. They dont need to field a team of 9 pre arb rookies, like they are the Rays. Alcantra, Baez, Castro or Bryant can play LF going forward. They will also all be much superior defensively out there than Schwarber.
I agree. As much as I love Schwarber and think he’ll be a legit 30 HR threat no matter where he plays, 4 years (or 5 with the option) of Hamels is worth it. Hamels, Lester, Arrieta, Hammel & Hendricks is one heck of a rotation. And it’s not like the other pieces are bad either. Edwards is nearly MLB ready and can probably start in the Phils rotation next year. Almora has GG caliber defense and if his bat is even decent he has tons of value. I’m a realistic Cubs fan who understands they need to give up quality to get quality. I think the trade is very fair for both side.
That sounds like a very doable deal from both sides.
That’s actually a realistic offer. You see so few on this site. Thank you.
Works for me. (phillies fan)
I wasn’t super stoked on the idea of Hamels for the Cardinals until Wainright went down.
I’m still not sure I’m too put out by the idea of the current rotation even without Wainright in it, especially since any trade would almost have to include one of the current 5 starters anyway. Wacha/Lynn/Martinez/Lackey/Garcia ain’t too bad. Even if Garcia ends up the worst of the bunch as long as they’re all mostly healthy that’s not a scenario where the Cardinals need to overpay. I assume the salary reduction is because they kicked the tires with the Cardinals and wouldn’t budge on Martinez + Marco Gonzales + some batter. Hamels is good, but I’d sure take my chances (with a lot less money and a lot less risk if Martinez suddenly forgets to throw strikes) with the current rotation than taking out one of the starters plus a guy who would most likely be a fill-in this year and starting next year.
Tigers get Hamels (who will have a lower cost than free agents next year).
Cubs get Price (compete this year, then go into the open market for Cueto or Price or Zimmerman with a blank checkbook)
Phillies get 4-5 players including the top prospects from both teams.
Well.. that depends on who the top prospects are..
Are we talking Baez and Almora, or Edwards and Schwarber.
Only way the Cubs do that is if the Tigers fork in the best prospects….(which they don’t have)…..and the Phillies probably say no to the deal anyway……
For half a dozen years, “experts” have declared that the Tigers don’t have any prospects, yet they somehow got Fister and Scherzer and Sanchez and Price.
Jacob Turner (given up for Sanchez) was a top prospect. He was ranked in the top 25 mlb prospects by all the “experts.”
Scherzer was a 3-team trade…..
And what about the idea that I proposed?
And one more reason I have been saying 3 team trade for a few weeks now ala Price….Phillies get an established MLB player and prospects
Sanchez they acquired when he wasn’t what he is now.
Fister and Price were acquired for MLB pieces, not prospects.
I don’t remember the exact terms of the Scherzer trade, so I can’t comment.
Max Scherzer was basically a league average starter when DET acquired him from Arizona in 2009.
Tigers get 3 1/2 years of Hamels while the Cubs get 1/2 a year of Price, why would the Cubs give up blue chip prospects in that deal? Tigers dont have the type of elite prospects Phillie is looking for.
Why? Because “rebuilding since ’08 [1908, not 2008]”. That is why.
If the Cubs were giving up top talent they would just go after Hamels and skip Price altogether. The Tigers literally bring nothing to the table in that deal.
Cubs have to give up a lot less to get a pitcher they can win the World Series with THIS YEAR. Lester and Price can win 3 playoff rounds almost on their own.
Wasn’t your point 1/2 year v. 3.5 years? Shouldn’t the price tag be much smaller?
The Cubs would have to be providing the prospects to get Hamels in Detroit so they would be paying for Hamels to get Price as a rental.
I am not sure you understand:
C = Cubs cost = 1 Top Prospect and 1 MLB Player (instead of much more talent to get Hamels)
D = Detroit cost = 1-2 Top Prospects/players and David Price
P = Phillies cost = Hamels
P = C + D.
C and D do not have to be exactly the same value.
…and for 25+ years, top pitchers in their final year (rentals) have been traded for top prospects. It is not outrageous for the Tigers to expect a top prospect if they were simply trading Price. But maybe they do not want a top Prospect, they want to give up that prospect and more to get Hamels.
Cubs top prospects are worth significantly more than Detroit top prospects are. The Cubs would have to disproportionately pay for Hamels to be in Detroit. The trade calls for the Cubs to massively overpay for Price so Detroit can have a very good starter for the next 3 1/2 years in Hamels when the Cubs could just cut out Detroit and get Hamels. The deal serves Detroit and Philadephia and completely fleeces the Cubs.
Compared to the Cubs, the Tigers farm system is horrendous. They don’t have the talent to get Hamels without trading their major league guys.
Without knowing the players except Price and Hamels, how can you state that?
So the entire deal revolves on Theo/Jed being blackmailed to give the Tigers Hamels and the Cubs only get a 1/2 year of Price? Lol
The Cubs would not have anything to do with Hamels directly. They would simply give up a Top Prospect and someone on their roster to get a top 5 pitcher in baseball, someone even better than Lester.
The Tigers would do the same to “upgrade from Price to Hamels” (not really an upgrade, just a longer contract).
Tigers are not getting Hamels without one of the top Cubs prospects and there is no chance the Cubs are dealing one of them for Price. I am a huge fan of Price, but he is not worth it at a 1/2 season compared to 3 1/2 seasons of Hamels. The Tigers would have to bear most of the prospect cost for the Cubs to ever consider it and the Tigers don’t have the prospects to do it.
to the Cubs:
from the Tigers: David Price. Stephen Moya, Buck Farmer
from the Phils: Cody Asche (Bryant to LF)
to the Tigers:
from the Phils: Cole Hamels and Ben Revere
to the Phils:
from the Cubs: Kyle Schwarber,Javier Baez. C. Edwards.Billy McKinney. Travis Wood
from the Tigers: Derek Hill
If the Cubs are providing the top prospects, because let’s face it, Detroit has none, then why not cut the middle man out and just get Hammels from the Phillies.
Really? How does Detroit have none when they have made major trades with “none” for the last 6 years?
Because they’ve traded MLB talent in most deals.
What MLB talent would the Tigers be willing to part with, and the Phillies would want? I can’t see them moving Castellanos.
The Tigers best bet is to shell out that 200mil to Price…and try to win before he turns into Verlander……..
Cole Hamels for E-Rod, Manuel Margot, Garin Ceccihini and Allen Craig.
The Sox get their ace.
The Phillies get 2 high-end prospects, another decent one, and a rebound 1B who can add some type of pop to the lineup, who currently has none outside of Ryan Howard.
Phillies won’t be fooled by those over rated Sox prospects….They will look elsewhere……
You’re logic is very solid.
The Red Sox prospects really haven’t ever been overrated..
JBJ was a bust, cool, it happens.
WMB you could see from a mile away
Troll.
“Phillies won’t be fooled by those over rated Sox prospects….They will look elsewhere……” I’m a baseball fan but based on your comments your very biased. Your viewpoint is not fact. Most prospects fail.
Manuel Margot is still in A ball. Ceccihini has a career .246/.323/.343 batting line line in AAA, you are going to have hard time convincing Phillie they are the top notch prospects they are after.
hes not, hes the 3rd prospect in the package.
It seems to me that people love to pick and choose little pieces of comments here.
He edited his comment. The original mentioned nothing about Margot, and said the Sox would have a hard time convincing the Phillies Ceccihini the top prospect they’d want. I responded said he wouldn’t be a top prospect, he’d be the 3rd piece
Agreed. Every time anyone mentions a third or 4th piece, people comment about how the Phillies are not going to trade Hamels for that. Every big trade has smaller pieces that round trades out.
Erod is a top prospect and so is Margot. What do you think the Phillies are gonna get? Swihart- Betts- Erod? Or Arais-Seeger-Pederson?
No but let’s stop insulting everyone by throwing names like Cecchini, Coyle, and Craig into these deals. We all get the the Betts Swihart love affair, we all get that your GM may have blown the season by constructing a joke of a rotation, but in the oft chance that a deal could be struck it would actually have to have the Phillies get a reasonable return. Say Devers and ERod plus Dubon.
No one has said coyle is anything close to a centerpiece. The Red Sox are not trading for him. There’s no reason to unless they start playing better.
That would be a fair trade but I dont really think the Red Sox are gonna make a big move like that when the season is probably lost.
I don’t know if I’ll say “lost” quite yet, but the principle of what you’re getting at, I agree with. If the offense doesn’t start playing as advertised before the season, there’d be little point to give up the haul to try and improve a pitching staff that wouldn’t be fixed with one guy anyways.
Its lost because they don’t have the pitching.. lol
this would give them atleast a start to a comeback.
Some people are forgetting that they are only 4 games out of 1st place.
The fact that they are four games out has nothing to do with them, its the weakness of the Division. No one has been hitting. The Phillies really want an elite prospect and the Red Sox are not giving up Swihart or Betts. Cole Hamels is not gonna turn this team into a serous contender. They still have a month and a half to really turn it around but theres not point in tradeing for him now
Not going to disagree with anything you said, but all Boston has to do is make the playoffs and take advantage of a currently weak division. After that, anything can happen.
True but they would probably need at least one other solid pitcher and that would mean selling the farm because its clear the Phillies are gonna hold out to get the offer they want and if they dont then they will probably just hold him.
Agreed, but I think a PHI-BOS deal could still be done without Betts or Swihart. But both sides definitely seem to overvalue their own players as most teams do. We will see within the next 2 months if the 2 sides can find a common ground.
What about this fantasy trade to put all pitcher trade rumors to bed.
Remember this only fantasy and would blow up the internet..
If it actually happened…just shook it up…..
Dodgers get Hamels,Harang and Clippard..
Phillies get Gray..
Reds get Puig..
Cubs get Cueto,Kazmir, and Zobrist..
A’s get Baez,Schwarber,Appel,and Margot..
Astros get Leake..
RedSox get Greinke..
So the Cubs get Cueto, Greinke and Zobrist for Baez and Schwarber?? umm ok
I know it’s only fantasy but let’s break it down:
Dodgers trade Puig and Greinke for Hamels and Harang..overpay for LA
Phillies trade Hamels and Harang for Schwarber and Appel..not enough for PHI
Reds trade Cueto for Puig..too good for CIN
Cubs trade Schwarber and Baez for Cueto, Greinke, and Zobrist…too good for CHI even if the SPs are rentals
A’s trade Kazmir and Zobrist for Baez..not enough for OAK
Astros trade Appel for Kazmir…closest to fair? But with how Appel is pitching, don’t think OAK bites right now
Most teams win…few lose….everybody’s happy……
Surprised no one is talking about Texas being a destination for Hamels now that they have Hamilton and are over .500. I actually believe now with Boston spuddering Texas is the leading team to acquire Hamels.
Texas receives: Hamels, Papelbon, Ruiz, & bunch of cash to cover part of both Hamels & Papelbon’s remaining contracts
Phillies receive: Perez, Alfaro, Mazara, Demeritte
Other players who the Phillies could be interested in include: Profar and without question they’ll ask for Gallo 1st, but Texas isn’t trading him. Allow I have to wonder if either side would do a 1 for 1 Hamels for Gallo deal. I doubt Texas would do it and I think the Phillies would be crazy to trade a proven Ace for an unproven minor league prospect even with the power he has shown.
Mazara and Gallo are very close in terms of value, both are elite prospects.
My team odds to acquire Hamels:
Texas 2-1
LA Dodgers 5-1
Boston 5-1
Chicago Cubs 8-1
St. Louis 10-1
Houston 15-1
San Diego 20-1
Minnesota 25-1
NY Yankees 25-1
Detroit 50-1
Field 100-1
Seriously, the Rangers are your top pick?
They’ve coveted Hamels for years. Had the Phillies not signed him to his current contract he probably would have been traded to Texas in 2012. In addition they had very serious discussions during the offseason with the major hang up being money.
Absolutely! As Phillies Aces has already said they’ve coveted Hamels for quite some time and now with them starting to play well they need an Ace to be serious contenders. They also have the pieces the Phillies are looking for in trade which are prospects on the cusp to play in the majors. The Phillies have also be looking for a Catching prospect an OF prospect, a 2B prospect, and pitching prospects all of which Texas has. In some ways Texas is a better match than even Boston.
What about Philly?
What about Philly? It makes no sense for the Phillies to keep Hamels unless no team is willing to give them a good offer which with all the teams needing pitching is unlikely. The Phillies will end up getting some decent offers as the trade deadline gets closer and teams get desperate. I think if the Phillies were closer than 5 years way from contending again they might think about just keeping Hamels, but they waited to long to start there rebuild and gave a horrible contract to Howard. They are so deep in the hole even with the great new TV contract and the huge influx of money they’ll be getting thy really have no shot at contending again until at the earliest 2019 and that’s only if some of the prospects they have in the minors now, Nola, Biddle, Elfin, Crawford, Quinn, Tocci, along with Franco & Giles and anyone they get back in trades for Hamels, Howard, Utley, Papelbon, & Ruiz and in the next 2 or 3 drafts. Without question this team could take a page out of the Sixers book and tank at least 1 year because they really need a few top shelf prospects and getting the top pick in the draft would help with that big time.
Also while I’m sure the Phillies don’t want to be bad until 2020 what they need more than anything is to at least have started turning things around by than. Why you might ask? Well from what I’ve heard Mike Trout wants to come back east after his contract with the Angels is up in 2021. He has mentioned the Phillies as a team he’d like to play for, but he also said he’d play for the Yankees and I can tell you this if the Phillies aren’t winning you’ll be seeing him in Yankee Pinstripes.
Texas is going to wait, and good chance by the time they wait their team will be out of the race also even if they don’t fall out of it finding a middle ground will be hard
I’ll say 1.Dodgers 2.Texas 3.Houston , I don’t think he’ll willing to go to Texas, so then we add Minnesota with the money issue being removed .
Why would he not want to go to Texas? If anything I’d think he wouldn’t want to go to Minnesota. Foxsports reported last July that the teams he’d allow a trade to were the Dodgers, Boston, San Diego, Angels, Texas, St. Louis, Washington, & Atlanta. Now that was last year and I’m sure the list has changed some, but I’m guessing if Texas was on the list last year there’s no reason it shouldn’t still be on the list.
How much more is Hamels worth than (after each of these players sign in the offseason)?
1. Zimmerman
2. Price
3. Cueto
4. Fister
5. Shark
If you’re going by what each of those players are going to get contract wise versus what other teams will be paying Hamels including whatever amount Philadelphia pays of his remaining contract and I’d say you’d have to be foolish to rather have any of those pitchers over Hamels even when taking the cost of needing to send prospects to get him. Everyone seems to go crazy about these prospects of which far more never make it then do. It’s makes a lot more sense to trade 3 prospects for Hamels and pay him $10 million a year then give Price a contract that averages $30 mil year. Think about would you can have Hamels plus $20 million a year to spend on guaranteed veteran major league players or Price and 3 prospects of which according to a study in 2013 by Dave McKinney and written about in an article by Dave Schoenfield of ESPN of Baseball America’s top 100 prospects yearly over a 20 year span 70% never turn into anything? Actually pitching prospects had a better success rate succeeding 40% of the time. Still that shows why teams like the Yankees who generally sign FAs rather than count on prospects continually are contenders while teams like KC you only see in the WS every few decades.
JAYS PLEEEAASE
He isn’t going to Canada and I don’t blame him. He’s lose too much money in Taxes by accepting a trade there without 1st also redoing his contract to adjust it for the high taxes.
taxes are super lame
Just the facts my friend, Sometimes people on the outside of the house can see the house on fire better than the people in it. Trade Ramirez to Detroit to DH, sent Big Papa to the house, either sent starters to bullpen or trade them as #Four or #Five staters which they are. Give all kids a chance to play.
Non of those are facts or make sense. Maybe try just looking at stuff as a baseball fan and not ” I hate the Red Sox”
Dodgers are smart , Red Sox are not ! An example if the Dodgers had Big Papa he would have already been cut. Boston playing footsie with the Old man.
It my example of Phillies selling cheap !
From a decade ago. Of a player playing a different position. With different contracts. Should we start to reference trades from the 80’s next?
Now that the Phillies are willing to take on some of the salary, will the O’s get involved? I hope so, would love to see Cole go to Baltimore.
From the Phillies standpoint, I’d like to get Dariel Alvarez, Mike Wright, and then as plug-and-play guys right now, TJ McFarland and Caleb Joseph. Could add Carlos Ruiz to the deal to make it easier for the O’s to do, although Wieters is supposed to be back soon.
Sure you would that’s not nearly enough for the Phillies. They need to get one of Bundy or Gausman to start a package for the Phillies to even consider trading Hamels to Baltimore.
Having looked at Dariel Alvarez’s numbers this year (I was going by last year previously) I actually agree with you – the Phillies should get more. But I do hope there’s a deal to be worked out with Baltimore (and not with Boston).
If the Indians can get another SP they can really make a run for the pennant. I think they should consider trading the farm for one of these top SP on the market.
Lkk
Yankees contend without young players, they buy contention it seems , ( Lucky, I guess ,So Far this year )
If thats the case for cole hamels and ruben amaro then the rangers need to go after hamels and trade Lewis and Alfaro to them to get hamels