I’ll go ahead and assume that everyone has largely caught up on yesterday’s big news, which involved a blockbuster deal to send relief ace Aroldis Chapman from the Yankees to the Cubs. It’s all the more notable since New York isn’t entirely out of the post-season picture, and because the move signals Chicago’s intentions to push the pedal to the floor in pursuit of an elusive World Series title.
Ultimately, Yankees GM Brian Cashman says that making the move was “an easy decision” — despite the fact that it unquestionably hurts the team’s immediate chances. The reason? Parting with a short-term asset, even one as good as Chapman, was a no-brainer for the veteran executive when it meant adding a blue-chip infield prospect in Gleyber Torres, a useful MLB hurler in righty Adam Warren, and two more assets with real potential in the form of minor league outfielders Billy McKinney and Rashad Crawford.
The veteran exec also suggests that New York can still try to qualify for the playoffs. While that’s true, it doesn’t change the fact that the chances of reaching and succeeding in the post-season are now clearly diminished. There’s no real question that Cashman (and, more importantly, ownership) weren’t convinced that this team was a full-throated contender, and that must have weighed heavily in the balance.
But did the Yankees’ brass perform an accurate assessment? Should the club have traded Chapman, and was the return sufficient? Tell us what you think:
I can’t believe no-brainer isn’t an option. Obvious trades are obvious.
Agreed
It was a fine choice, the package isn’t as big an overpay as people are making it out to be, but about right for 2 months of a closer. Torres is a great prospect but at 19 is 3+ years away, the other 3 aren’t actually anything to write home about.
Now the Yankees have more trade chips if they decide to flip them for what they need to make the postseason (Mateo is a better SS than Torres), or can just sit on them and have a better farm than before. I like the deal for both sides.
Just Another Fan -I think you are right when you say it isn’t as huge an overpay as most think but still abit of an overpay. I think the overpay was totally justified as a win now move because as Theo said in his press conference ” if not now ..when?”. Plus I think that because SF and the Nats were in the hunt for his services cubs were actually not only paying for Chapmans services but to keep he away from a team they will meet in the playoffs.
riffraff – VERY much in agreement with you. I’m sure the Cubbies’ brass feels that a hundred plus years is enough time to wait on future potential.; also like your observation about keeping Chapman off the roster of, say, the Nationals. It is, in my opinion, a bit of an overpay… but I also have enough faith in Theo that he is as capable as anybody at ironing out an extension with Chapman. If that happens? A big win for the Cubs.
Just wondering, why do you guys think it’s an overpay? Chapman is pretty much the best reliever in baseball, and Torres, the centerpiece, is 19. Warren & McKinney have been awful this year and the other guy’s ceiling is a 4th OF. To me it seems like a perfectly fine pay for the best reliever in the game on a team who is looking to win its first title in 108 years. Is it the fact that 4 pieces were moved that’s the overpay? Because to me, those 4 pieces are not an overpay for Aroldis.
I actually think the Vogelbach trade was more of an overpay, or could have been used better in a package. Regardless, both these moves only help the Cubs, and its not as bad as Russell for Samardzija in terms of a actually-blue chip prospect (Torres isn’t and probably won’t be in Russell’s league as a prospect/MLB player).
Clarifying a bit on my part… it’s a tad of an overpay (IMHO) unless the Cubbies work out an extension. If not, I’m still okay with it; you have to give something to get something, and a WS championship is worth whatever it takes. Wouldn’t it be something for both the city of Cleveland and the Cubbies to put their droughts to rest in the same season?
Right, but I’m still stuck on why people are saying its an overpay. Those 3 non-Torres players actually are not anything special, and Torres is blocked. Seems like a perfectly fine pay to me. Yankees didn’t really rob the Cubs, they got a fair package for an elite player.
Just Another Fan – I just feel if we were the only national league team bidding on his services we would have not included Mckinney and might have still gotten Chapman. Thats not to say McKinney is a stud or a lock to be a major leaguer – but it is just a rental.. and a rental almost exclusively for october since we would have made the playoffs whether we got chapman or not. Warren won’t be missed – thats strictly a slight adjustment in payroll type move. As far as the other guys potential – bit early to determine his ceiling but like any other prospect its a total crapshoot. I would have like to use Mckinney in a package in the offseason for a young starter but am by no means knocking the trade for chapman.
I think this trade was pretty solid for both sides, but I’d be careful about using “Torres is blocked” when arguing that. Anthony Rizzo was “blocked” when the Sox traded for him (by the player they were getting, but still) and we see how that one worked out…
The difference is that the Cubs shou;d be and are all in for 2016, so it’s okay to give up a 19 year old potential star for an elite closer.
Anyone that pays attention to baseball knows Chapman is not signing an extension 2 months before hitting free agency. If the Cubs keep him it will be because they were the highest bidder. They could have been the highest bidder without trading for him. So they traded for 3 months of Chapman no matter what.
The best reliever in baseball plays in Baltimore.
??? Chapman’s not in Baltimore…
Britton is better and it’s not even close.
It’s an even year, and you still haven’t let a goat onto wrigley confines. No matter what player you get, the odds aren’t in your favor
It’s probably the idea of trading the #19 overall prospect in baseball for 3 months of a reliever. I understand the rationale, but for some teams (not the Cubs) that move would never happen.
Ok ok, leave the homerism out of this. Britton is absolutely, categorically not better than Chapman, stop changing the subject. Chapman beats him in every category. Brittons very good though, but who cares? I’m still wondering why people think that Cubs package is too much for an elite player of any kind.
McKinney is a bat-only bad body OF currently with 1 HR over a non-injured, full season so far. He’s arguably not even a prospect anymore really. One more bad year like this and he’s a bust. You give that up for and elite player without thinking twice.
So its the number of players that you believe to the overpay. I can kind of see that, but deadline deals are entirely more situational than big picture, the peanut gallery refuses to acknowledge this, its kind of maddening how overvalued prospects are to people when they flame out more than they are successes.
Are you a Cubs fan Just Another Fan? Because you seem to be fine with the loss of these players. Something tells me that if say the Cubs gave up Schwarber for Miller plus, I think you would be saying something like “Well at least we kept Torres and McKinney”. Now that they are traded , you seem to be thinking it is no loss at all.
Addison Russell is incredible and the Cubs SS for the next 7+ years. Yes, Torres was blocked. The Cubs simply have too many position players who are under 25, they don’t need Torres or Vogelbach or even Happ, Soler, Schwarber etc.
Rizzo was not traded to Boston. No idea what point you are trying to make there. You can’t block a guy after he’s been traded, he’s no longer on the team.
You are talking out of your ass. Numbers say Britton is the best. And someone said Chapman was the best reliever in baseball and that’s not true.
What about the #6 overall prospect for 1 season and 2 months of a SP? The A’s did that with Russell for Samardzija (other elements involved obviously but those two were the headliners).
Also: Arismendy Alcantara was #18 on that midseason BP list in 2014. Look at him now.
I’m not a Cubs fan, I’m not really super into any team, but I cover the A’s at work so I know a lot about them and am watching them a lot closer than any other team. I like all teams equally though, and can be rational about moves like these. I’m also very rational in how I view prospects, which puts me in the minority here.
Schwarber for Miller plus is interesting though! They don’t really need Schwarber either, as they have internal options like Happ but also free agency to fill roles. Seeing as that’s not a real deal though, we’re kind of talking about nothing here.
No, I said “Chapman is pretty much the best reliever in baseball”, I could have said “arguably” instead of “pretty much”, as they both are very good, I love Britton but I’ll take Chapman and his 1.76 FIP over 5 seasons over Britton and his 2.44 FIP over 3 seasons. Care to tell me what numbers you like more? Saves? lol
Torres isn’t ready for the MLB and thus wasn’t blocked by Russell. Torres could easily spend another 3 years in the minors, and by that time, Zobrist likely won’t be starting at 2B. Cubs could have shifted infield around at that time. And nobody knows what’s going to happen in those years. Russell might get hurt or start to suck, Bryant might go to OF if Schwarber can’t come back from injury, etc.
I like the trade, but the “he’s blocked” stuff is just wrong, right now.
When you look at what the Yanks gave up for him and compare it to what they recieved from the Cubs it’s obviously a massive overpay, I would take this package over what we have the Reds in a heartbeat, and Chapman has expressed feelings that he would sign with New York in the offseason if they go out and try to get him, if that happens this would be one of the best moves pulled off by Cashman.
Agreed. Torres is in low minors and wouldn’t sniff the majors until 2020, Warren had a solid 6 era in a half season and Mckinney isn’t anything special. I think it was a great deal by both teams. These guys talking about Giollito, Urias and Gallos for someone like Miller, I think are being really aggressive. If the Cubs wouldn’t deal an injured Schwarber, i don’t see any of those teams dumping their franchise prospects for a 2 year rental of a closer, maybe Sale.
Ugh. the concept of “franchise prospects” is just so SO corny to me.
Good trade not a great trade but not bad wish we could have done a better package but not a bad trade.
How is this a question?
Theyll wind up with Chapman AND mckinney torres warren and rashad.
Cubs essentially gave up castro for free now and the yankees get castro warren chapman, assuming they sign him in FA, and the prospects.
the yankees have taken a more conservative bend in recent times – I don’t thin chapman is coming back in FA – it is still a good deal for NY though
Giving up Castro for free is better than still having Castro on the roster.
Haha. That’s funny. Last year was filled with “Starlin Castro is an All-Star shortstop on a great deal. He is not getting traded”
What’s you’re point?
Assuming that is not a rhetorical question, his point is that many Cubs fans thought highly of him when he was there and expected a big return. And after he got traded the same fans were basically saying Good Riddance
Those fans are idiots then, please try not to lump them all together
Chapman could go elsewhere though, and Castro isn’t very good
None of those guys are anything (yet) though, and Chapman is still elite.
I LOL at Yankees fans who think Chapman is coming back next year. You people sound like Red Sox fans two years ago after Lester got traded mid-season. They were positive that he would be back because “everybody wants to play in Boston.”
History has shown that once a guy is out the door, anything can happen. And in all honesty, I find it highly unlikely that the Yankees will want to shell out $60-$70 million plus for their closer over the next four years, regardless of what’s coming off the books in the next couple of years.
I mean, it is the Yankees, and they can certainly throw big money at whomever they want. It just seems that the current regime no longer tries to buy all the best available players, regardless of cost, like the team used to.
The reason Lester didn’t sign is because Cherington did offer him an extension and it was insulting, getting paid around 14 million a season, why would he want to resign after that, it’s insulting that they viewed his value as low as that.
McKinley could turn out to be a beast in NY. He gained weight his year and is not performing well, but he could be a really solid player for NY. Torres reminds me of an Alcides Escobar type, not bad but nothing special.
Torres has shown a lot more pop than Escobar did at any level.
He’s a bad body RF and probably a future 1B/DH with 1 HR in a full season this year. His stock is in the toilet and he’s in danger of flaming out. McKinney might not be anything ever.
It’s a better package than they gave up, so overall good trade for Yankees.
It was a great trade for the Yanks. Obviously prospects don’t always pan out, but I’d rather have some high potential guys for the future than a great RP for 2.5 months on a mediocre team.
All in how you look at or percieve it. Rental …over paid, possible final key to possible winning ..The Series
I don’t understand why Yankees fans assume that he’s just going to re-sign? Jon Lester didn’t re-sign with Boston and he many more reasons to go back. You really think Chapman gives a crap about the city of New York. Come on……….
Lester wanted to go back but Boston was too busy low-balling him. We’ll see if the Yankees make the same mistake.
Lester had the Theo connection from BST.
Yankees wanted Chapman and gave him a new and clear ‘second-chance’.
(alot to say with these two significant factors)
I imagine the vast majority of Yankees fans, myself included, do not assume that Chapman will re-sign with the Yankees. I believe your polling data is incorrect.
I will say that the guy is a great pitcher, though. Hadn’t seen him much at all before he became a Yankee. He is dominant. Good luck to the Cubs in the playoffs. I doubt the Yankees will be there this year.
I liked Chapman on the Yankees because he was exciting to watch, but I’m not sure I’d want them to re-sign him for big, big money. I’d rather see them sign a couple of good middle relievers for $3M-$4M each and let Betances and Miller handle the late innings.
While it appears on the surface to be a massive overpay for 2 months (plus post season) of a elite level closer you have to realize a few things:
1) The Cubs are all in, no doubt about it. They want to end their dry spell and win a World Series. No one can’t doubt that sincerity.
2) While Torrres and McKinney have been highly touted, there is still no guarantee that either will ever develop into significant players at the major league level.
3) Everyone knew that the Yankees were going to trade Chapman. I’m quite sure that the Cubs would much rather have Chapman dealing from the mound in a Cubs uniform instead of having to hit against him in some other team’s uniform. The move was as much about keeping the competition from having Chapman as it was about obtaining Chapman.
All in all, if the Cubs win the World Series this season, then this move was definitely worth it.
The Yankees did what a club in their position is supposed to do. They acknowledge (for once) that they’re not a contender this year (for a championship) or anytime in the near-future. That makes luxury items like Closers expendable. Getting value for Chapman is an absolute necessity, especially those on expiring contracts. Considering the haul the Cubs gave up, the Yankees made the right move, and the return in Chapman was more than sufficient.
Trading Chapman was one of the easiest decisions Cashman or any other GM has had in recent memory.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see the Yankees make a run at Chapman in the off-season to get him back.
Certainly believe they will.
As of right now they can’t afford Chapman unless a few things change. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but:
1) The Yanks are definitely getting under the luxury tax this year so they can reset the penalty tax percentage. They want to be players in the 2018 FA class and they can’t do that with a 50% tax.
2) They currently only have about 10 mil to spend this off season after factoring in arbitration players. Since Chapman will command 15 mil, I don’t see how they resign him unless the cap goes up this year (possible I think) and/or they rid themselves of all of Gardner’s contract and as much as they can of CC and Headley. (Possibly save 5 mil a piece.)
Again I looked at this fast, but I can be wrong about the numbers. I’m not wrong about getting under the luxury tax though… next year is their last chance.
This is a fantasy idea anyways because Rizzo/the Lerner’s aren’t taking on payroll in season, and with Sabathia having the option to veto any deal with his 10/5 rights not sure he would be willing to go to Washington, but I wonder if the Nats could lighten the return for Miller if they picked up Sabathia’s 2017 option, and than took on the entire 2017 contract for the Yankees (instead of Lopez, Giolito, Fedde & someone else, maybe just Giolito, Fedde & someone else, and the Nats keep Lopez if they took on Sabathia’s 2017 option).
Same with Texas (but I don’t think CC would approve the trade). Maybe the Rangers can just send one of Profar/Gallo/Mazara for Miller if they took on the rest of Sabathia’s contract?? Not like this FA class is anything to write home about anyways, but the extra $20 million or so saved by not having to pay Sabathia’s 2017 contract could end up being the difference between resigning Chapman & not resigning him if they want to stay under the luxury cap and keep Gardner in the OF.
Yes, the return was more than sufficient, considering what they gave up to get him, only to flip him 6 months later
Little surprised all this digital ink in the comments with no mention of Warren. IMO, that’s the big roll of the dice for NYY. If they can repair Warren to the 1.5 WAR reliever that he’s been the last 2 seasons for NYY, then they come out way ahead. I’m sure the coaching staff thinks that this is a very plausible scenario having worked extensively with Warren over the last few seasons. Sure, they still lose a little at the MLB level since the shift from Chapman to Warren is big. However, that is mitigated somewhat since we’re talking relief Ps as well as that Warren won’t fill the same role as Chapman. If NYY wins that dice roll, then they basically score Torres for free at the MLB level (more or less); if they lose, then it isn’t too great a step back for them in the big picture.
Great trade for both sides! This trade only marginally makes the current Yankees worse (as they were dealing from a position of strength and excess) and further establishes the fact that if any other contending and potentially desperate team wants Andrew Miller, they’re gonna have to pay a king’s ransom. Cubs have a largely deep farm system with skill players blocking who they traded, so Chapman as their potential “final piece” is a no brainer. The Cubs’ #1 and #5 prospect are better than what the Yanks have down on the farm and puts them in a position to stockpile talent in case they decide to buy at the deadline, while also leaving the door open for Chapman to return as a free agent considering he was testing the market whether they traded him or not.
When the Cubs make a gross overpayment its win now but when Dave Stewart does the same thing its stupid? Theo has to be one of the most overrated front office guys in the game, He just threw money at Billy Beanes philosophy in Boston and took advantage of the Cubs being awful, that Heyward contract looks like it could be one of the worst in Baseball. Chapman is an idiot and it will be fun too see him choking against the Giants in the playoffs.
You sound a little butt hurt over this
SF lol how your losing 9 out of 11 doing. Don’t look now but the Dodgers are on your door step. Knock knock. Who could it be now lol. I’ll be laughing if the Giants get aWC then get blaster in a one game winner take all by St.L or Miami lmao 2 and 8 in the last ten. Here come the Dodgers. hahaha
@Niekro…
For one, this trade is not an overpay at all. Certainley not compared to Dave Stewart’s overpay. And Theo is overrated? Let’s compare Theo and Stewart…
The list of one-sided trades that worked out for Epstein and Chicago is insane:
Justin Grimm, CJ Edwards Jr., Neil Ramirez, and Mike Olt for Matt Garza
Jake Arrieta and Pedro Strop (+cash) for Steve Clevenger and Scott Feldman
Kyle Hendricks and Christian Villanueva for Ryan Dempster
Anthony Rizzo for Andrew Cashner
Travis Wood for Sean Marshall..
Miguel Montero for Zach Godley
Addison Russell for Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammels (and then re-signed Hammel)
The only one that flopped was Tyler Colvin and D.J. LeMahieu for Casey Weathers and Ian Stewart.
He’s the one that signed Dexter Fowler, Ben Zobrist, John Lackey, and Jon Lester, and hired Joe Maddon. To say that the Heyward deal is a bust after half a season is a little absurd. He’s only 26, and he’s still playing Gold Glove caliber defense regardless.
And with Boston? He led them to two world Series rings, in large thanks to the moves he made during his tenure. And the Red Sox in 2016? They still have a lot to thank Epstein for. He drafted Matt Barnes, Henry Owens, Blake Swihart, JBJ, Williams Jerez, Noe Ramirez, Mookie Betts, and Travis Shaw in the 2011 draft alone. Pedroi was taken in 2004 by Theo and Christian Vazquez was a ninth round pick in 2008. He’s the one that signed David Ortiz to a one year, $1.25 million contract in 2003, and signed Bogaerts as an international free agent.
As for Stewart? He’s been the Diamondbacks GM for about a year and a half. He’s made a few trades, and none have worked out except the Trumbo trade. He paid $68.5 million for Yasmany Tomas in 2014 (he managed a -1.3 WAR in 2015 and is working on a -0.6 WAR so far this season). They couldn’t sign any international prospects for over $300,000 this period, and they won’t be able to next period either, because he signed Yoan Lopez for nearly $16 million.
The Shelby Miller trade just exemplifies how bad he’s been. Sure, nobody knew Miller would be this bad, but it was pretty obvious to anyone that he was due for some major regression, and that he was more than likely a number three starter at best. But he gave him the number one overall draft pick, a 25 year old outfielder who posted a 9.0 WAR in the two seasons prior with five years of team control left, and another unanimous Top 100 Prospect for him. It was the most blatant overpay in recent history.
This is not an overpay. Theo Epstein tends to have success with trades. I’m not a Cubs fan, but I think they trust a man who can turn Matt Garza, Steve Clevenger, Scott Feldman, Ryan Dempster, Andrew Cashner, Zach Godley, Sean Marshall, and half a season of Jeff Samardzija into Jake Arrieta, Anthony Rizzo, Kyle Hendricks, Miguel Montero, Addison Russell, Justin Grimm, CJ Edwads, Neil Ramirez, Mike Olt, Pedro Strop, Christian Villanueva, and Travis Wood.
connorreed you left out the most important one. Zack G – Yes everyone goes on the DL even CK – But to pay 206 Million for a guy 32 and who numbers this year are beyond terrible. Not to mention now you want to trade him. And haha have the team pick up the the money owed. You can’t trade ZG for Clayton Richards and have anyone pick up that money. Think that is bad, Wait till he is 35 and you try to trade him with $103 Million Owed, or 36 and owed 70 Million. All straight money. Now Arizona fighting for 4th place with no farm and no cash and no players.
Hey free Goldy because that your last chance before your homeless. He be fired yesterday.
Niekro your the perfect example on this board of someone who is an idiot, and childish and full of hate on the success of a team. No mater who it is. Happens to be the Cubs. A person who just bitter. Esp when your comments include I quote “Heyward contract looks like it could be one of the worst in Baseball. Chapman is an idiot and it will be fun too see him choking against the Giants in the playoffs.
You need some professional help. Chapman not an idiot. I can bet you now, that had the Giants signed him which they wanted to, your tone and story would be a whole other topic. Envy and jealousy will get you nowhere in life. REAL life not just as a fan or on these boards. Just makes you look stupid and bad. But your even too stupid to realize that..
To add to say it be fun too see him choking against the Giants in the playoffs is wish full thinking and maybe makes you get over your frustration of what the Giants are doing right now. Which is not much considering they have lost 8 of 10 and the Dodgers are right on their heals. Makes you mad, worried and frustrated don’t it. I profile people for a living and have you read like a book. The Giants have to get to post season first, then play the Cubs, IF and when that happens then you can make your childish statement. IF and when the Giants do beat the Cubs IF they play them, IF they beat them, then you can talk. Until then, I’d be more worried about what the Giants are going to do to get out their funk, and what they are going to do to get ready for post season IF they make it and IF they even play the Cubs. That more realistic thinking. Not some childish bitter jealous fan who team missed out and now you want to justify the move because your team didn’t get him. Better get the Shark to pitch better for 90 million before you talk about Heyward. He’s 26 and has a long way to go before that an over pay and a bust. Those are real facts – other than that go chase your invisible Pokemon.
First, there was no “gross overpay” as you called it. The Yankees got a blue chip prospect, a “meh” prospect that has regressed, a mediocre reliever/spot starter, and a lottery ticket for one of the top 3 relievers in baseball.
Second, I’m not really certain it is wise to judge the value of a multi year contract on what has or has not happened in the first 4 months of said contract. Nobody expected Heyward to come in and be a savior for the Cubs. Has he been a bit snake bitten this season at the plate? Absolutely. However, his defense is still gold glove worthy and while his average is down he has still been hitting the ball; unfortunately, those balls just haven’t been dropping for hits. Either way, everyone should probably wait until at least 6 months before we start judging a 26 year old player’s contract as being the worst in baseball. I mean after all, at 26 he has to be nearing the end of his career right! SMH.
2 thoughts that I don’t think have been expressed:
1) I don’t think this really hurts the Yankees chances of making the playoffs. Not that they had a good chance but I don’t really think losing Chapman moves the needle much as far as their overall ball club due to the roster construction. They still have a good bullpen. Their rotation is still inconsistent and their offense isn’t great. But if they put it together somehow and make a run, they are just as likely to do it with Chapman as without. And if that is true, then you’d be a fool not to trade him.
2) Doesn’t the Reds GM have to get fired now?
You think the Reds were getting these offers when he was facing an 80 game suspension? Why blame the GM for the player putting the franchise in a terrible situation?
It has to impact their chances, regardless of what they still have in the pen. High-leverage games, possibility of pitching multiple innings … all the more relevant in the chase & playoffs that follow. As the season shortens, relievers have out-sized impact.
You could line those three up to cover six innings in a single game if needed in an elimination scenario. If you use 2 one night, you can turn to whoever is fresh the next day. Extra innings? No problem – while the opponent is going with some middling arm, you’re trotting out one of the league’s best. Even if your starters always go deep (which theirs don’t), you’d always have a well-rested cannon coming in as needed. Etc.
Hard to call it an overpay, since it’s doubtful the Cubs could have gotten him for less, and there just isn’t a comparable player (elite left handed reliever) that they could have chased. Having said that, by luck or design Cashman played this perfectly, he bought low and within months was able to sell high- Chapman’s performance, combined with market conditions, completely changed everything.
Reds are the ones who should be kicking themselves, and I doubt any owner or GM is going to make the mistake of getting rid of a player because of a pending DV issue again.
It is an overpay if the same package would have got Wade Davis who is just as good against lefties as Chapman.
I agree that the Reds came out on the short end of this whole thing. If they had held onto him until now they almost certainly would have gotten a much better package than what the Yankees gave them. It will be interesting to see where Chapman ends up after this season. I really don’t think the Yankees need him unless they trade Miller this week.
I think a better poll would be, “Did the Cubs overpay for Chapman?”
I disagree, if someone actually believes the Cubs did not overpay, they are crazy. The Cubs would probably admit they did, they had to to get him.
This really wasn’t as big of an overpay for Chapman as people make it out to be. Torres is fine, but someone the Yankees didn’t really need, especially with Mateo in the system. He’ll probably fit at 3rd for the time being. McKinney projects as a 4th outfielder at best, Warren is just a mid relief-swing man option, and Crawford will most likely never make it to the bigs. It is an overpay for sure, but if the Cubs received some sort of guarantee that Chapman signs with Chicago, it doesn’t look too bad for them
Chapman is on another level than other closers available, but what does this do to the market for closers such as Jeremy Jeffress and Wade Davis? I’d imagine the Royals and Brewers will be upping their asking prices.
It was win win for both teams. People don’t think out the box on these boards. Most don’t even have a clue about the REAL business of baseball. They really don’t..
It 4 players for a reason and there are some catches to the whole deal.
For the Yanks –
Positive on the deal.
They get a good young 19 year old player who can develop through the system. Is he the next Jeter? No one knows. Yank fans would hope so and one can’t blame them. He could also be a bomb in A but a bust coming up to AA or AAA or not even be MLB potential. You can only assume at this point. Anything can change on a dime. You can invest 206 Million in a pitcher who on the DL and an ERA higher than a NASCAR fuel mileage too. Or sell your farm for a pitcher in MLB and ends up in AAA with an ERA to high to even talk about and now on the trading block for the 15th caller.
They get a good OF in McKinney who is in AA NOT AAA who probably is still 2 years away from AAA and maybe even more and at least 4 to 5 for MLB. So while the Farm is getting a major boost the MLB is not at least at this point and for 3 to 5 year block on both.maybe more. Again he not great, but good enough to make the Farm headlines every so often. If he can stay steady and develop more than he will be an asset. But he does no good in AA when you need to win a title in MLB winning a title in AA and AAA mean nothing. Again it Time and Grade.
The last of the prospects is Rashad Crawford and probably the one that will never hit MLB level. He is 23 – with a BA of 255 and 3 HR in A ball he has along way to go. Not to say he can’t. But with the age and the stats and that is at A ball he more like 7 years away, and by then he be nothing but an ave player going up and down from MLB and AAA with no real impact. The Cubs had no use for him so that why he get packaged.in that deal.
Warren is the only MLB ready player. Coming from the Yanks in the Castro deal. DO NOT COMPARE THE DEALS – Castro deal was a reason and only a reason for the Cubs, not to just trade him for Warren – Warren name just happen to fit but was NOT the purpose and the post be too long to explain. Warren had a chance for 1/2 year for the Cubs and he didn’t cut it. Not to mention the Cubs are making room Warren goes back and that not a loss. he would have sat in AAA if not.
Down fall for the Yanks is time and hope – Sadly the odds of him getting from A to MLB in 3 years are about 1000 – 1 or about 10% if he can get through AA & AAA and is good. If he great then probably 40%. More like 4 to 5 years. He is no KB or Russle or Baez or Swarb far far from it. Those guys short of Baez and KB came up because of injurie moves and just stayed up. Like WC and Albert A did this year or they still be in the minors. WC wasn’t even coming up till the Ross injury, and just proved to be even better than they thought so he will stay. So bottom line is it a wait game for the Yanks and probably 4 years at the very least to see him. Kind of like a payment on a house being built that you wont live in for 3 to 4 years..
So the (4) players is a bit misleading if that makes sense. Really it more about 2 players
.
The Neg for the Yanks
just have to wait it out. These guys won’t help them this year, or next year and TBH probably at the earliest is 2019 – 2020
They Lose the best closer in the business so it not going to improve them any more but as good as Miller is any less.
Positive for the Yanks is they do gain future. How it will work out again is time, grade and wait and see. They got 2 good young players – and their pitcher back lol which they can have.
They also have a chance IF they want to spend the money to get him back in the Winter.
For the Cubs this was pretty much a no brainier too and Win Win. But with the positives comes the Negatives
Positives for the Cubs. They get the best closer in baseball. The Pen is not weak or bad, the word to use is in contestant. I see the Pen and days you are like WOW! Wood filling in for Hammel going 4 innings of shut out ball, the pen picking that up to finish 8 innings of shut out ball. So it can be done and they can be lights out. But it is like a number generator, going so quick and you hit the stop button, and hope you get the lighting bolt. to pop up.
Cubs gave up 4 players but in reality 1 of the 4 was headed out the door anyway in a trade. (Warren) the two were blocked, and the Cubs – people forget have the youngest group in MLB. Those players are 22, 23, 24 and all will be with the Cubs for at least 7 – 8 years if not more. Russle is 22 and not going anywhere at the very least till 2024 IF he doesn’t resign. By then you can get 20 short stops.
What people don’t know or most is the Cubs did everything they could to extend Chapman. They offered him 60 to 65 Million for 4 years – Can’t say Theo didn’t try. It like buying a car and saying hey will you through in a $500 gas card? Can’t blame the guy for saying no.
The Neg is he a rental. Rentals are hard to keep. Ask Toronto ask the Mets. But when the Winter war starts teams that want him are looking at at least 4 years and 60 – 6.5 million dollars. Because that what the Cubs offered him in the extension. If it works out they will come back with that number in the Winter. The up-side is the Cubs will do very little shopping. No Heyward bucks this Winter. They may try for a SP which is easier said than done, resign Fowler to 3 year deal, and dump everything they have on Chapman. ESP if the win a WS and want a repeat. I’m sure Theo will do everything and then some to retain him next year even if it an over pay.
For everyone saying Cubs should have got Miller for those 4 players – Wasn’t happening. There is no Miller for those players. It was very simple Swarb for Miller no more no less. Cubs said NO. If they want Miller today TODAY it be one simple phone call to Cashman and the deal done. That is how bad he wants Swarb and his power. Won’t happen. So they couldn’t shop him and Cashman doesn’t want anyone else for Miller from the Cubs or anyone else for that matter so he will stay as the reports read. For that reason.
As far as SP, you can quarterback it all day long. Getting a SP and good one won’t even talk about Sale is a lot harder than fans think. Even Archer, or Terahn. It easy for fans and people say trade this package and trade that package they should get Archer they should get Sale, until your really running a front office and the other teams say F&^K OFF. You people have no clue. Think Theo and Cashman been in this business long enough to know what they are doing. If Theo could have gone cheaper he would have. If Cashman could have got more he would have or a better deal he would have. Fans just don’t see behind the scenes.
Last note. The Cubs want a title now. So they should it been a long time, long before I was born, and for childish trolls to talk about 108 years is childish. They weren’t born other than the name really has no merit, Different time, different owner, manager players. Cubs just happen to get the whole package in a Owner, President, GM and Manager. That were it starts the rest falls in later with a farm, trades, buying and selling. Then of course the players have to preform. So the bottom line is how long do you say wait. Wait. No sense of looking at prospects you can’t use nor will use in 5 to 8 years. You not going to say hey we have the best farm wait till 2022 will show you how good we are? When you one step away from opening the door and going through it, you get up, move you two legs walk to the door, open it and walk your @$$ through it. The door wont open itself no matter how long you look at it.
The Cubs motto – Simple. Get busy living or get busy dying.
Did Hal Steinbrenner commission this poll?
No, Theo did.
I think it all depends on how things play out. There are several variables at play.
1. If the Cubs win the World Series, the trade was a no brainer/greatest trade in team history.
2. If any of the prospects amount to significant major league talent, it’s a great trade for the Yankees.
3. If the Cubs fail to win the World Series and chapman signs elsewhere, it was a flop for the Cubs, but you can’t blame theo for trying.
4. If the Yankees miss out on the playoffs by a game because of a weakened bullpen and none of the prospects they recouped produce, it’s a bad deal for the Yankees.
Completely disagree. Regardless of what happens, Yankees traded away an elite reliever nearing free agency, which is a complete waste on a losing team, to acquire potential. Even if every player amounts to nothing, it is still a trade you make 100 out of 100 times if you are the Yankees.
Cubs strengthened their bullpen by getting the best (or near the best, depending who you ask) reliever in the game in a year where they were already considered favorites to win the World Series. They sold from a minor league system which is stacked with talent, as is the major league team. Hard to fault them for going for it.
Whether Chapman re-signs or gets the final out of the world series or blows out his elbow… this is a great trade for two teams that were in vastly different positions.
All this talk of Yankees will just re-sign Chapman in the off season got me thinking… should they? Why do they need an elite closer with Betances and Miller on the team? Spend the resources elsewhere, like the rotation.
Cashman played the situation perfectly; buying low, selling high. But giving Chapman what he will ultimately cost in free agency doesn’t sound like a smart decision for the future of the team.
I hope he re-signs with the Cubs, or signs with another club – I don’t care. Chapman would be a luxury on the Yankees when there are real necessities being ignored.
The return Miller would bring could help erase that Moncada disaster.
Betances, Chapman plus an Elite prospect is better than Betances and Miller. Chapman only costs money. But with Hal, that might be the problem.
You got it right. The Yankees don’t need Chapman. They have Miller who has pitched very well for them and is under contract for 2 more years. They also have Betances who can be very good but sometimes is erratic. I think this deal will prove to be good for both teams. I don’t think that the Cubs overpaid like many NY fans claim. I don’t think Torres is overrated and won’t make the majors for many years if at all like many Chicago fans say. Time will tell how this deal should be viewed.
Love love love how majority of fun fans were saying Yanks would get and should expect to get at most Vogelbach and McKinney for Miller and look what they got for Chapman!
Now Cub fans like just another fan is on here trying rationalize that McKinney isn’t a prospect and Torres is so far away so it was great trade for Cubs. Give it a rest. Yanks scored big here and cub fans just know your all in for first time in 100 years so be happy. If you don’t win it all at least you have it a shot.
billysbballz another example of a High EGO Yank fan. Glad the Yanks are happy. I never said the got a bad deal it was a win win for both sides as explained many times. I’m not trying to rationalize at all. But don’t come off as some high ego New Yorker and I know New Yorkers I do business with them everyday most are full of $hit TBH. Not to say you are. But I only stated facts. If you think you will see those kids any 3 of them in 3 years you are in for a big disappointment so maybe you should give it a rest and stop trying to think the Yanks are all that and pulled off the trade of the century. You figure it out and see. That not a bad thing but it is a true fact.
Would have been a more interesting (less one-sided) poll if phrased from the Cub’s perspective.
The Yankees had nothing to lose and everything to gain by trading Chapman for just about any controllable asset. The Cubs have a lot more skin in the game
I’m going to try to explain this to fans and posters as if they were a 3 year old. Not to say they are so don’t read the wrong way. But if you want to talk baseball and be adult than lets do it we can talk all day. If you want to act 3 years old and be troll or envy a team or be a jealous brat because your team is not doing anything or up to YOUR liking and act stupid then that is your right I’m 100% positive MOST fans here don’t have time for it or will feed into you nor will give you the attention you seek. Which is all it is. Because it is mostly all Bull$hit.
Here it is straight from the top, take it or leave it.
Castro deal can not be compared to the Chapman deal which includes Warren. TWO DIFFERENT deals – two DIFFERENT REASONS.
The Castro deal with Warren is almost like a 3 team deal without the 3rd team involved. Will call it the invisible team which is FA Ben Zobrist.
There would be no Castro in NY if not for the Zobrist signing. The Cubs had no place for Castro with Baez coming up, and Russell taking over FT at SS. Castro had his issues with the Cubs also. He was a good player no doubt, but it is the long term and the system they use that makes a team work. Not just a player who can do this and that. The big issue was also that $40 million salary. Which for what he was doing was not worth it to the Cubs. Add all those factors together and he was going to be traded sooner or later.
When Zobrist was packed and all ready to go to NY Mets at the 11th hour..Theo played one last “ace”. He had Zobrist hold on before signing. The Mets had him and thought it was a done deal minus a signature and a fax. For Theo and the Cubs to pull off signing of Zobrist, Castro had to be moved. For one his $40 million dollar salary, and for 2 getting Zobrist would really jam log Castro.
Aka when in need call the Cashman and the Yanks lol. Warren just happened to be a name.and a pawn. The Cubs could have given Castro to the Yanks for free if it was legal which it is not lol. So this was never about Warren and trading Castro for him. Theo figured if he had to get a player a pitcher would be the best player to get. Middle relief maybe could start some games to rest the SP ect. AKA Adam Warren. Yanks not giving up much. Easy deal. .Theo and the Cubs could not afford to wait on a Castro trade with the Mets waiting for a fax and signature. Had to be done now, right now. Or he would have held out for more for Castro trust me on that one. Warren was the pawn – if he worked out and helped the Cubs it is a bonus, if not then off to the stock yard for slaughter and trade. Warren never did work out, he blew many games, gave up a lot of HR balls, and only started a game. Then Zobrist signed. Zobrist was really an unofficial Cubs before Castro left, but because of the money Castro had to go first. .
Was it a good deal – Depends on how you look at it. It was for the Yanks as they got Castro.and a 2nd baseman they needed.
It was for the Cubs because they got Zobrist but with out one the other wouldn’t have never happened. The Cubs got Warren as a tester and reused him as a package later. Because they didn’t need him any more. they needed Chapman and room for Chapman. Understand now.
Castro is doing no better this year for the Yanks than the Cubs last year.
Zobrist is really doing better in all stats esp the WAR at 1..5 vs 0..5 for Castro. More important is Zobrist fits the system were he can play anywhere, were Castro can not. His Defense is also twice that of Castros. What does that cost the Cubs. 16 Million dollars.
The most important factor is the Cubs are paying Zorbrist 16 Million of his $56 million – NO TEAM in MLB could even come close to pulling that off. The Mets were paying $52 Million, The Dodgers offered near 58 Million, and Washington 54 Million. Washington did get a better deal in getting Murphy at this point because of what he done this year. But who knew? It all a crap shoot in sports. Mean time the Yanks are paying 40 Million for their 2nd baseman in Castro.
So to compare the Yanks pay $40 Million to Castro
Cubs Pay 16 Million to Zobrist and get defence, a player who can play anywhere, 4 years and who playing better right now.plus a pitcher who may or may not work out but hey it is a free bee and not the purpose of the exercise.. Do you guys really think Theo would trade Castro for Warren if there wasn’t a real purpose in it. Come on you guys know better I would think, or hope anyway. So Warren is a pawn that can be used for the time being. If it works and he good or great jack pot, if not doesn’t matter.
That is what Theo looks at not some stupid fans talking about this and that, and trying to just justify things for the sake of saying them, because it all stupid and childish. Talk real baseball or go chase your invisible Pokemon.
To be a filler and make room for Chapman and another player later and with no real use now, Warren again is the Pawn and goes back to NY. There is no Castro for free.
Now you get the whole picture I hope LOL…
That is all she wrote folks. Good Night and Good Luck!
Ohh give it a rest! Stop worrying about justifying Cubs trades to every other teams fans. Stop worrying about theo and giving everyone a timeline of what he’s doing. It’s clear, he’s trying to win. The fact that Yanks got Warren back is relevant for Yankee fans who love Warren and feel they just got Castro for nothing. So leave it alone and just root for your team and don’t try and educate everyone else. Win finally and stop crying!
Good deal for both sides. Yanks will be lucky to get in the playoffs with or without Chapman. Yanks future looking much better adding Torres
I’m glad the Cubs got Chapman. That gave the Cards the ability to fit hard throwing Jerome Williams onto the roster.
So before the season starts the Red Sox get Kimbrel for 4 similar pieces and it is considered an overpay, even though they get three years of control. The Cubs get three months of Chapman and now it’s fair all around? Feel free to argue that Chapman is the superior player. You won’t get an argument from me on that. Call the players blocked if you want to, that doesn’t have anything to do with their actual value. The Cubs paid a very steep price.
Mookie’s Lip
Cubs paid for something they need – Something that could get them a title. Title has risk, but sometimes you have to pay for it. The value to the Cubs vs the value to other teams is different.. So to the Cubs it steep but not an over pay for their purpose. To fans or maybe some other teams it might be an over pay. I don’t know about Kimbrel I never followed that trade. But it is also in the timing. It is a week till the dead line. There is no thinking or waiting. Have move fast on your feet, nature of the business. This not winter or the beginning of season where well will see what other options we have or just wait it out. The other factor is Your guy is not in competition at that stage of the game with the season and title on the line. With Wash, and SF and LA all in the mix the Cubs could NOT afford to lose him to one of those teams. That would be a nail in the coffin for them. So what is the price worth for you to not only get the guy but to prevent your playoff contenders from getting him and having to face them. Would you want to face Strasburg, Bum, or Syndergaard then face Chapman. Me either. So what is that worth? 4 players all which can’t help you win that title in 2016 that what it worth. Understand?
The Red Sox gave up more quality prospects tho. Margot is similar to Torres in terms of rank except that Margot is much closer to the big leagues. While I personally don’t think guerra will amount to much (I’m a Padres fan) he was still a top 100 prospect. Logan Allen has serious potential but was still far away. Carlos Asuaje was considered a throw in but he has produced a lot in an admittedly hitter friendly environment. Meanwhile, the Cubs gave up a blue chip prospect in Torres, McKinney who’s been pretty bad this year and doesn’t lay defense that well, warren who has struggled but played well last year as far as I kno, and a guy who may not even make the big leagues. Very big difference imho.
Nicely done! To flip a reliever that is destined to blow his arm out. They got a nice haul. Now if they could only realize they have to blow it up.
It was great for both. None of the players the Cubs traded have a place on the major league roster but the Yanks can use them and Chapman secures Chicago’s
bullpen and may help them win the series.
The Yankees dominated this trade. Chapman very well may return to the Yankees after the season. However the Cubs are going for a World Series and you can’t put a price tag on winning it all. None of the players they gave up would likely be anything more than injury replacements or off the bench players. Good problem to have when you have such an abundance of quality youth in your organization. Huge haul for the Yankees though as they locked up a bunch of assets.