2:37pm: The Cubs and Yankees have each formally announced the trade. Warren will join the Yankees’ Major League roster, while McKinney will head to Double-A Trenton. Torres and Crawford are each bound for Class-A Tampa.
11:03am: After months of being linked to a hard-throwing left-hander for their bullpen, the Cubs have reportedly acquired the hardest-throwing pitcher in all of Major League Baseball, reaching an agreement with the Yankees that will send Aroldis Chapman from New York to Chicago in exchange for shortstop prospect Gleyber Torres, right-hander Adam Warren and minor league outfielders Billy McKinney and Rashad Crawford.
The Cubs have been linked to Chapman and fellow lefty Andrew Miller for months, but the Yankees seemingly never wavered from their asking price of Kyle Schwarber in exchange for Miller, and the Cubs never budged on their refusal to discuss the injured slugger. Instead, the Cubs will pick up Chapman — long one of the best closers in all of baseball but also a free agent at season’s end, making the four-player package headlined by Torres a steep price to pay. However, the Cubs have more wins than any team in Major League Baseball and are making a clear effort to deepen their roster not just to get to the postseason but to thrive upon arriving there. The structure of the postseason schedule allows clubs to more heavily rely on their bullpen arms due to the frequency of off-days in the schedule, making Chapman that much more valuable in a five- or seven-game series.
The 2016 season has seen Chapman continue his on-field excellence, posting a pristine 2.01 ERA with 12.6 K/9, a career-best 2.3 BB/9 and a 37.3 percent ground-ball rate. Chapman’s fastball has averaged a staggering 100.1 mph this season, which is a strong driving factor behind an 18.2 percent swinging-strike rate that is the fourth-highest in MLB. Since taking over as the Cincinnati closer back in 2012, Chapman has compiled a 1.91 ERA with 165 saves and a ridiculous 500-to-117 K/BB ratio in 287 innings of relief work. He’s earning $11.325MM this year and has about $4.33MM remaining on his salary through season’s end.
Chapman becomes the second hard-throwing lefty to join the Cubs’ bullpen in the past week, as Chicago also picked up lefty Mike Montgomery from the Mariners in a trade that sent slugging (and blocked) minor league first baseman Dan Vogelbach to Seattle. Chapman figures to supplant Hector Rondon as the Chicago closer, pushing Pedro Strop to the seventh inning. Montgomery and right-hander Carl Edwards Jr. will mix in as well, as will right-hander Justin Grimm and veteran right-hander Joe Nathan, who was just brought to the Majors over the weekend after completing rehab from Tommy John surgery. Travis Wood has pitched to a 2.88 ERA this season and is second among Chicago relievers in terms of innings pitched, so he’s likely to become the third lefty in manager Joe Maddon’s bullpen. As such, the acquisition of Chapman could push left-hander Clayton Richard, who has a 6.43 ERA in 14 innings this year, out of the picture.
[Related: Updated Chicago Cubs and New York Yankees Depth Charts]
Chapman’s time with the Yankees will ultimately prove to be brief in nature, as he spent just a few months in the organization and only a bit more than two months on the active roster due to a 30-game suspension under Major League Baseball’s domestic violence policy. Chapman was investigated by the league this offseason following allegations of assaulting his girlfriend at a party and later discharging a handgun in his garage, though he was never arrested nor were any charges filed. While the moral and ethical implications of acquiring a player associated with that investigation can be debated to no end, from a pure baseball perspective, the investigation drastically lowered the price for the Yankees to acquire Chapman this winter. They’ll now swap out Eric Jagielo, Rookie Davis, Caleb Cotham and Tony Renda for a significantly more talented package of talent, headlined by Torres and McKinney.
Warren will return to the Bronx with two and a half years of service time, and he’ll be a familiar face for the Yankees, who just this offseason traded him to the Cubs in order to acquire Starlin Castro. However, Chicago proved to be a struggle for Warren, who pitched to a 5.91 ERA in 35 innings with the Cubs. Considering the strong work that Warren did from 2013-15 with the Yankees — 3.23 ERA, 7.7 K/9, 2.9 BB/9, 45.3 percent ground-ball rate — the extent of his struggles was fairly surprising. The primary culprits for Warren were a dramatic spike in his walk rate (4.9 BB/9) and a massive increase in homers. A fluky 16.7 percent homer-to-flyball ratio undoubtedly impacted his 1.8 HR/9 rate, but Warren’s general problems with locating his pitches actually led to a greater percentage of pitches in the strike zone, particularly when behind in the count.
Torres, 19, is the most highly regarded prospect joining the Yankees’ ranks. One of the prizes of the Cubs’ pool-shattering international spending spree three summers ago, the shortstop entered the season as a consensus Top 50 prospect around the league and has only continued to boost his stock. Torres is hitting .275/.359/.433 with nine homers and 19 stolen bases in 409 plate appearances while playing against considerably older competition. ESPN’s Keith Law rated Torres 26th on his midseason list of the game’s top prospects, and Baseball America pegged him 27th. Law noted that Torres has put on weight and filled out a bit, making it less certain that he’ll stick at shortstop but adding to the power output he’s delivered in a pitcher-friendly home park as one of three teenagers receiving regular at-bats in the Carolina League this year. BA notes that he’s recovered from a dreadfully low start — indeed, he’s hitting .302/.379/.468 since May 1 — and has shown enough added pop to profile at second or third base even if he has to move off of shortstop.
The 21-year-old McKinney was a Top 100 prospect entering the season but has seen his stock dip a bit, part of which BA attributes to adding “some bad weight” and slowing down both in terms of foot speed and bat speed. In 349 plate appearances at the Double-A level this season, McKinney is hitting .252/.355/.322 with just one home run. However, he’s quite young for the level and is just a year removed from hitting .300/.371/.454 as a 20-year-old between Class-A Advanced and Double-A, so there’s certainly room for a rebound. And, as evidenced by McKinney’s 47 walks (13.5 percent) against 68 strikeouts (19.4 percent), he still possesses strong discipline at the plate that should play into his favor as he continues to develop. The Yankees will be the third organization for McKinney, who was selected 24th overall by the A’s in 2013 but traded to the Cubs alongside Addison Russell in the Jeff Samardzija/Jason Hammel blockbuster back in 2014.
As for Crawford, the 22-year-old was an 11th-round pick out of high school by the Cubs back in 2012 and is in his first season at Class-A Advanced. He’s hitting .255/.327/.386 with three homers and 22 steals in 28 tries through his first 370 trips to the plate. Crawford didn’t land on any top 30 lists for the Cubs, but BA’s J.J. Cooper tweets that as a toolsy center fielder with plus speed and plus defense, Crawford is the “perfect” fourth player/lottery ticket to add some further upside to the deal for the Yankees.
Jon Heyman of FanRag Sports was the first to report that the two were talking about a trade involving Chapman and Torres and also the first to say a deal was in place (via Twitter). Joel Sherman of the New York Post first reported Warren’s inclusion (links to Twitter). Sahadev Sharma of TheAthletic.com first reported that McKinney was in the deal (also via Twitter). Patrick Mooney of CSN Chicago reported that Crawford was the fourth player (Twitter link).
Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.
Wow they’re scary
That’s a whole lot their giving up for 3 months of a closer
You could say that again
Could you? Where is Torres playing for the Cubs for the next 10 years? Same with McKinney?
Completely agree shocktop. I say this as a hardcore Cubs fan. I genuinely cannot comprehend how any Cubs fan could be against this.
You have a major chance to win the World Series and you need bullpen help. So, you just went out and acquired one of the best closers, dare I say, in the history of baseball, all while giving away prospects that have absolutely ZERO chance to make the club, as they’re blocked by young All-Stars that we already have.
Ummmmmm, am I missing something?????? Trust me, as a Chicagoan, it’s just the attitude people in this city exhibit. You could walk up to most of these miserable s.o.b.’s, give them $1000 and they’d tell you to get away from them.
Little harsh on us Chicagoan’s there DJones. What you are missing is Cubs just traded two of the best trade pieces we had including our number 1 prospect and a top 30 prospect in all of baseball at the age of 19.
Am I saying I don’t like that we received Aroldis Chapman, who undoubtedly will help us in the second half and in the post season, no I think it’s a fantastic addition to an already contending team.
But, what some may fail to realize is that we will need to continue to make moves for starting pitching, thinking longer than just this year. With Arrieta likely on his last year in 2017, Lackey and Lester aging another year, Hammel is just not going to cut it much longer, we will need to trade for a long term starter, preferably a top of the rotation guy. Torres was our best trade piece for a deal like that and now we just gave him and our number 4 prospect away for 3 months of service from a closer.
Was this an overall bad move on the Cubs part? No. But, was it a risky move, absolutely, you just gave up two of your top 5 prospects for a 3 month rental on Chapman , who is coming off of a domestic violence scandal, just because he wasn’t charged doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. If this doesn’t work, and by not work meaning they need to win it all, it’s definitely a black eye on an otherwise impressive run by Theo Epstein.
“Hammel is just not going to cut it much longer”
Uh, what do you even mean by this? One game all year where he allowed more than 4 runs, 3 games where he allowed more than 3 runs – so, yeah, what’s your beef? 3.35 ERA/1.11 WHIP/ERA+ 120 and you say “not going to cut it”. Unless you’re panicking over the one terrible game he had this year, which happened to come this month. But, if that’s what driving it, you’re just being silly. Besides, I don’t know what market you’re looking at, but unless they sell everything they have left on a Sale-type, you’re not getting better than that.
I should have further clarified on that one, that’s my bad. I just personally don’t like Hammel so didn’t feel the need to elaborate but, we only have Hammel through next season with a 2017 option, meaning we likely won’t resign him, I also just don’t trust him to be consistent all year, I’m hoping this is the year he proves me wrong, desperately hoping.
Epstein has shown that he is willing to pony up for top line starting pitching on the FA market. There simply has not been any top line relievers on the FA market.
Because they do not run a baseball team or think out the box. They are not stupid they are just not educated. Read my BIG post and maybe some people will understand. Your not going to get players for nothing. If you ran a team and tried that you be no better than a AAA bottom team. Then they go to the owner and say no one will trade with us. i can’t get no players. The owner would fire them that minute and say no excuse – you can’t handle the job I get someone who can. It tough as a GM or President. Because the OWNER signs the checks. he says I WANT TO WIN! YOU HAVE THIS MUCH MONEY TO SPEND! THIS IS MY BUSINESS AND I”M NOT IN IT TO LOSE MONEY EITHER. So you have to get players, build a farm, Win and be completive, please the fans, the city and do it with money that not yours and only so much per year on a VERY VERY LARGE SCALE – Millions and Billions at STAKE. Anyone here think they can handle that. IF you said yes your a lire and an idiot.
As far as retaining him, I’m sure Theo will do everything in his power with all the fund he can get even if it means trading away someone to free up more money to retain him in the next 3 to 4 years. He pulled of Hayward, and Zorb, he got Fowler back. The man also took a team that hasn’t won a WS title in 75+ years and got that title. I rest my case.
“One of the best closers, dare I say, in the history of baseball?” Hyperbole, much?
One of Theo’s core philosophies is to fill up your roster with hitting prospects who are young, controllable, great, and cheap. Sign them for many years, while they’re young, so it’s a team-friendly contract. Then, you have the money to buy quality starting pitching, and a few bullpen guys. All while keeping your farm filled with excellent trade chips — and the occasional call to the majors.
WE MADE IT! You’re not realizing this. We have the full roster of great, young, cheap, controllable players. It took 6 years, and now it’s come to fruition.
You’re also overlooking he fact that the farm team is still stacked, and they have other high school and international players that will be moving up the farm ranks, soon. McLeod and his team knows what they’re doing. You act like these are the last great prospects we’ll ever have.
You are not thinking this through at all. Again, these prospects had ZERO path to the majors, and we just got the best — or at least the most feared — closer in the game.
As far as Chicagoans…trust me. I am one. Most of the people in this city are very pessimistic and rarely satisfied. Just comes with living in a Communist-controlled city.
Of modern times. Better? Jesus, you know the point I’m trying to make, right?
The best closer in baseball histroy is Mariano Rivera- Chapman has to win like 5 WS titles to catch him
Yeah, talent wise it’s alot, but value wise to the Cubs it’s not.
Remember, folks, they aren’t just losing the potential future contributions of these guys. The Cubs are also paying the opportunity cost of not being able to flip them for anything else. Just because your prospects are blocked doesn’t mean you should treat them as completely expendable resources (not saying that’s what happened here, just an awful lot of people seem to think the Cubs paid nothing since McKinney and Torres were blocked).
Arrieta will stay with the cubs. He might have no choice in settling for 6 years. Pitchers will never learn long term deals for pitchers will never ever work. Kevin brown Mike Hampton. CC Sabathia Strasburg just signed long term and he’ll be done halfway through. Same with Max
Scherzer. Verlander. Jordan Zimmerman. Its like he’s fallen off the face of the earth.
it’s going “all in”……Cub fans have been waiting long enough. why wait till next year? this is THE best closer in baseball right now.
But if the starting pitchers don’t get back on track it won’t matter.
You could very well be right (overpay). A text from my son ‘.. Just remember for every Bryant , Schwarber, Russell there is a Pie, Patterson , Vitters, Jackson , etc’
He is so right. The Cubs may have actually sold ‘high’ on Torres (.274), McKinney (.254) and warren (5.29)…
Given the contract of arrietta, aging of both lackey and lester, the current Cubs window is only 2 years. As theo said ‘if not now, then when?’
Certainly an overpay, but I who else carries as much ‘value’ as chapman …
If we get to (not necessarily win) the WS, the gamble paid off… If we melt, chapman gets hurt or chapman cannot handle the October pressure, it was a bust …
(My opinion) this is a pretty good hand to push your chips ‘all in’..
Is it an over pay? Value is based on what others will give. This isn’t the Shelby Miller trade. This was an auction, not a fleecing.
I think you might be underestimating their window at 2 years. The position players are only likely to improve, which should offset any decline by Lester and Arrieta, and I would guess that they won’t simply stand pat if the pitching does fall apart. The wealth of young positions players they have right now could very well keep the window propped open for half a decade, particularly considering that the sheer number of them makes it possible to deal from their ranks to fill holes elsewhere.
Agreed so much!!!
what is the value of Chapman? It’s exactly what the Cubs gave up. Who got the best of this deal? We won’t know for a few years but if the Cubs win the WS and Chapman gets 5-6 saves in the post season, it will be a great trade for the northsiders even if all the players the Yanks got make the all star team for 4-5 years and help NY back to the WS. The Cubs have told their fans “wait till next year” long enough.
I know, the Yankees just got the player who will become the best shortstop in franchise history.
That’s a whole lot they’re giving up for 3 months of a closer
Nice one
Reds have to be sick about how little they got for him last offseason.
Reds (assuming) took the best deal at the time. It was unknown what the results of the criminal investigation would be, or how long a potential suspension would go. Being in his option year, any team trading for Chapman, at that time, could not have any surety that he would even play for them this year. That risk, which Cincinnati was unwilling to take, lowered his value substantially. If he was still suspended, or in jail, at this juncture, you would be telling how smart the Reds were in getting something, before the investigation was completed, rather than waiting. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Yeah, and if they kept him and he did what he has done up to this point, then people would say, and are saying, that the Reds have to be sick about how little they got for him last offseason.
He wasn’t charged. Jail was never in the cards. It was just speculated what kind of suspension he would get. It doesn’t take 20/20 vision to see his value was the lowest it could ever be at that time and that it would start to climb once he started pitching.
All true, but there was no real risk to hanging on to him, they weren’t going to contend anyway. The Yankees did DD on the situation before trading for him. The Reds should have done the same. Then again these are the same guys that gave the mega-bucks to Homer Bailey, money they could have used to keep Johnny Cueto.
Smartest post on this board.
The risk was him being suspended for the season and then walking. The red hot something for him when they could. I don’t blame them.
Theo got taken on this one.
No. Dave Stewart got taken in the Miller trade. Theo offered the most in an auction. Value is based on the market, not some preconceived motion of cost.
Nice deal for Yankees and huge pick up for the Cubs!
Cubs were probably better off getting 2.5 years of Miller for a future DH.
My thoughts exactly. Good pickup for the cubs but at a hell of a steep price considering hes a rental.
I love how people question Theo wanting to keep Schwarber who’s a stud. I mean all the fans were right when they took him instead of Gray in the draft just like all the fans wanted them to.
Totally. Time will tell, but I strongly suspect trading Schwarber for Miller was by FAR the better course here.
No way. Both are horrible deals for the Cubs.
As a Red Sox fan….It will be worth it to raise a WSC on the Northside. Trust me., if Chapman and his 102MPH Fb can give the Cubbies that edge they need, and he will, the. You make the deal. If you have to overpay a little, then you do.
Teams are going to ask for the moon from the Cubs, Red Sox, Rangers and Astros because they know their systems are stacked. Especially the Cubs since they havent won it in over 100 years.
Great deal by Theo and Co.!!!
If the Sox dont win it all, Ill be rooting for the Cubbies on for sure.
Its only a great deal if they win it or if he signs an extension
As a Cubs fan, completely agree. Also, GO SOX! Just not those nasty, dirty White ones. Lol. Hopefully we see you in the Series. Would be amazing.
If this is the asking price for 3 months of service from Chapman, I can only imagine they wanted Schwarber AND at least another top prospect or even more for Miller.
It’s bad enough we gave up two of our top 5 prospects for 3 months of Chapman but, if we had to give up at least one of these top 5 prospect AND Schwarber I would be pretty upset.
I’m fine with trading who we traded it’s just the fact that we only get Chapman for this year and we lost two prospects that we could have traded for a long term starter rather than a rental.
Since the Yankees got Warren back, you could also say the Cubs threw in Castro, as well.
If you say the Cubs threw in Castro then you gotta say they threw in Zobrist. Cubs only traded Castro once they had Zobrist signed and would not do the deal unless they had Zobrist.
Zobrist wasn’t on the Yankees. He is a FA signing. So the Yanks basically trade Brendan Ryan for Starlin Castro. Castro was basically free.
Bomber you a typical ego headed New Yorker – your an idiot have no clue to why that trade was even made. You wouldn’t have Castro who is not doing better than Zorbrist BTW if the Cubs never signed or got Ben Z – Castro wasn’t free. Really you could ahve him for free wasn’t the purpose of the exercise but your too stupid liek most NY people to understand or realize it. Mean time Cubs paying Zorb 16 Million while the Yanks are paying Castro who is doing worse 40 Million. Just like the rest of your long term wasted old beat up player contracts you can’t dump now. Now wonder why Cheap Hal like all NY people Cheap and talk bunch of Bull $hit didn’t buy any players this Winter. You think your getting Harper in 2018 hahaha. Be another thing you wine about and say the team over paid. Loser.
Wow, who shoved the stick up your ass? Hopefully your pathetically childish and immature comment made your day easier.
Wow I was way off on Warren, still a huge haul though. Surprised they wanted his I slightly sub 6 ERA back in Yankee Stadium. Hopes this works out for both teams.
Even if Warren wasn’t in it, it’s a good trade for the Yankees.
Way way way too much for a fricken rental. The Cubs better get someone else
What? What more could they possibly need?
Wow I was way off on Warren, still a huge haul though. Surprised they wanted his unslightly sub 6 ERA back in Yankee Stadium. Hopes this works out for both teams.
Wow I was way off on Warren being apart of the package, still a huge haul though. Surprised they wanted his unslightly sub 6 ERA back in Yankee Stadium. Hopes this works out for both teams.
You typed that like 3 times
Wow I was way off on Warren being apart of the package, still a huge haul though. Surprised they wanted his unslightly sub 6 ERA back in Yankee Stadium. Hopes this works out for both teams.
Way way way too much for Chapman. The Cubs should get someone else too for a rental
Jayson Stark says it’s a 5 player deal, so figure there’s one more from each team coming.
No it’s Chapman from the Yankees and 4 from the Cubs
When I heard it was going to be a 5 player trade, I thought Yanks 2, Cubbies 3, but I guess not. What an overpay.
But if you want to win a title, especially since you haven’t in 100 plus years, that’s what you gotta do.
Exactly. Cashman isn’t stupid. He knows this is the missing link for the Cubs. When you have something of extreme value — that other people want, as well — you can demand a higher payment. Even if it’s inflated above market value. Econ 101. I still think both teams made the right moves. Hands down.
Awful. 2 overpays for 2 relievers in 1 week. WTF Theo/Hoyer?
I read your insane valuation on Dan Vogelbach last week, FYI he will not turn into Rizzo 2.0, and I wasn’t surprised to hear you chiming in here.
The assumption is an extension will be done with Chapman. If it does not, yes this is an overpay for players the cubs will not use in any foreseeable future. So we essentially traded them now rather than later, in the prospects dished (Warren clearly wasn’t what they thought he’d be). If we have a shot to win the WS this is very worth it if Chapman is closing out playoff games and possibly WS games hands down.
The Cubs issue has clearly been its bullpen, and Theo/Jed have been addressing it. Everyone needs to stop thinking just because we have a top ten prospect doesn’t mean that we should be able to obtain a top end rotation pitcher, or an MVP caliber player. This is a business and ML talent is going to cost a large sum. This is why you’re a fan, and not in the front office of an MLB team.
That’s a pretty bad assumption, especially given Jon Heyman’s tweets that the main reason that the Yankees started to shop Chapman is because he turned down their overtures at an extension.
What will the winning lottery numbers be for Powerball?
I mean since you know Vogelbach isn’t going to be anything special already I figure you might have some insight on other things as well.
How can you be so sure Vogelbach isn’t going to be something worthy of missing, then admit this Chapman deal is an overpay? Vogelbach is pretty much ML ready and has better numbers than Torres….. similar numbers to Rizzo when he was in the minors. IMO of the players they’ve traded I think Vogelbach will be the one we’ll be kicking ourselves over the most. This Chapman deal I don’t mind the players dealt leaving……. I just can’t believe it took all of them to get 2.5 months out of Chapman.
Generally you don’t trade blue chip prospects for friggin relievers. You reserve them for solid young ML pitchers, or STARTING pitching prospects. Or in some cases a premier offensive player…… like Yoenis Cespedes was last year for Michael Fulmer.
Cubs traded 3 top prospect in Torres, Vogelbach, and McKinney (and a case can be made for Blackburn) for f**king Montgomery and 2.5 months of Chapman.
Only way these trades don’t suck so much is if they can re-sign Chapman. Otherwise, this has been the crappiest week for Hoyer and Theo in their tenure. Chapman doesn’t make this team markedly better.
What will the winning lottery numbers be for Powerball?
I mean since you know Vogelbach is going to be something special already I figure you might have some insight on other things as well.
I changed the word “isn’t” to “is” and basically rehashed what you asked, but to your point.
You’re doing the exact same thing.
The reason the Cubs didn’t trade their prospects for a starting pitcher or for a stud offensive player is because that is not what they lacked. What they lacked was quality bullpen arms. The Mets lacked offense. Toronto lacked an Ace starter. Each team on the cusp of WS contention trades for their needs.
Also, since joining Seattle’s triple A team Vogelbach has played 3 games, has gone 5 for 12 at the plate for a .417 BA, walked twice for a .500 OBP, and smashed 2 more HRs driving in 4 more RBIs. This brings his 2016 triple A season totals to a .322 BA, .427 OBP, .992 OPS, 18 HRs, 19 2B, 68 RBIs, and 57 R scored in 92 games. What a bum. nothing special there.
Montgomery on the other hand has appeared in 1 game, immediately gave up a 3-run home run and has recorded 1 out. Not surprising coming from a failed prospect turned reliever.
This is a ridiculous assessment of judging a trade based on one single week, and to compare Vogelbach to Rizzo is laughable, he was never the elite prospect Rizzo was and will never possess Rizzo’s ability in the field. The Cubs have no place for him, Seattle does, the trade was a win-win for both sides.
And explain to me where Torres and McKinney are going to play? Theo went all-in on winning it all this year and there’s nothing wrong with that. When the Cubs win it all and Chapman plays an integral role in doing so, you’ll be lauding this trade. You have to trade value to get value back, and if Torres and more is what it takes to get the missing piece, there’s nothing wrong with that.
No the assumption is not that an extension will be done. The Cubs traded for 3 months of Chapman and that’s what they’re getting. They can re-sign him in the winter but so can the other 29 teams.
Chapman will not sign an extension- face it- he is 3 months to FA and that’s what he wants. After the WS let the bidding begin- it’s open season on Chapman
Cubs should’ve asked for more or gone after Will Smith of Brewers who has more control. This is crazy!
There are ample high quality relievers out there with more control that would’ve been better, cheaper options.
Cheaper, certainly. Better, I sincerely doubt it. The only other lefty reliever in Chapman’s class would be Miller, and he would have cost more.
The same Will Smith that failed to get any left-handed hitters out yesterday and single-handedly gave the game back to the Cubs? I’m good there. And before anyone mentions a one-game sample size…I believe that’s what everyone is writing off Montgomery over.
Seriously? Four players? Stupid overpay by the Cubs. You don’t give up that many players to rent a closer. A young, controllable ace-type pitcher or elite slugger, sure. What’s even worse is we’ll most likely see Chapman in a yankee uniform next year. Ridiculous.
How do you figure? Because the Cubs can’t offer the same deal for an elite closer? Go root for the morons on the south side who don’t know the way around their front office from their back side!
When you look at what Chapman was acquired for by the Yankees, AND what Kimbrel was acquired for by the Red Sox………… this is one of the most ridiculous overpays I have ever seen. While the deal is Torres, Warren, McKinney, and Crawford, it really is Torres, Castro, McKinney, and Crawford. Absurd. Kimbrel was acquired with 3 years of control by the Red Sox for Margot, Guerra, Asuaje, and Allen. I’d put these deals about on par with each other in terms of what they cost, and rightfully so, Chapman and Kimbrel are equals on the field…………. but Kimbrel with three years of control completely obliterates Chapman and his 2.5 months of control.
Sox fan…say no more. All they do it stalk the Cubs posts and post disinformation and troll comments, because most people think their team is in AAA, and their organization is a circus. Great deal for the Cubs!!!
I bet the Cubs will try to ink Chapman to an extension to make this deal more fair. If they win the WS that’s the only thing that’ll matter. Even though it does look like an over pay, not every top prospect turns into a good/great Major League Baseball player.
what if Torres turns into a Brandon Wood?? We won’t know who won this deal for 3 years on the Yankees end
Well if the Cubs don’t win the WS and can’t resign Chapman then they definitely lost this deal…so it could take a few months instead of 3 years to find out who won this deal.
True
Whether or not the Cubs re-sign Chapman in the offseason has no bearing on how good this deal was. They’re trading for 3 months of him and that’s what they’re getting. He won’t take an extension.
This deal being more fair is not Chapman’s problem. Taking an extension makes no sense from his perspective.
Wait what? The Yankees just traded their closer away in a lost season for a few highly ranked prospects. How could it possibly be anything but a win for them? You don’t need to wait 3 years. They did a great job by acquiring talent. Even if they all falter, they still did a great job turning an unnecessary piece into potential.
Whether Chapman gets the final out in the world series, or if the Cubs re-sign him to an extension… it doesn’t matter at all from the Yankees perspective. They got a glut of talent for someone who was of no need to them. You make that trade 100 out of 100 times; it’s a definite win.
There’s far more to it than how Torres turns out.
For one, you have to consider organizational depth. The Yankees now have enough depth that if they want to swing prospects for good players next winter, they can.
The Cubs, however, gave away a lot of organizational depth, and that could hinder them should they need to make more trades.
Chapman is not signing an extension- he already told the Yanks that- that’s why they traded him and he told Theo that too. It’s a good move for both teams- esp if the Cubs win the WS. If not, then they probably gave up a lot, but sometimes you have to take a shot at it.
Let’s not forget, the yanks got Castro for warren. So if you think about it, the yanks gave up chapman for Castro, Torres, McKinney, and Crawford. Well played, Brian cashman.
best post ive read about this deal so far
Don’t forget about Brendan Ryan!
don’t forget Brendan Ryan went in the Castro deal. I got down on my knees and thanked the Lord that we got rid of him.
ESPN says the Cubs are trying to sign Chapman to an extension. He would be crazy to agree to that before hitting the open market.
Especially because he will not cost a draft choice.
Not if he gets a record contract for a reliever. Money isn’t an issue for the Cubs.
He passed on the Yankees talks of an extension – no way he isn’t testing the market
The Yankees have some of the deepest pockets in the Game, and he already knows what they would pay. That could change his perspective on whether or not to sign.
Would he? Being in a first class/world class city with the best-run organization in all of baseball, that will take care of him monetarily. No one in the right mind would leave that.
You’re delusional. The best way for him to maximize his earnings is to wait out the open market. Anything the Cubs offer him now will still be there in the offseason and another team could possibly offer him much more.
First class/world class city- you could also consider New York, which he declined.
“Could take care of him monetarily” – Sounds like New York, which he declined.
“Best=run organization in all of baseball” – That, however, is highly debatable. I’m sure San Francisco, Kansas City, the Dodgers, and a few others might want to speak with you.
St. Louis too
Minus that whole corporate espionage thing…
Wow, I thought he was traded to the Cubs, not Boston! lol
Chapman will be a FA after the season and sign for the biggest buck. The sooner you all face it the better. There will be a lot of competition to sign him- all big buck teams will be in on him which will raise his price.
That’s the price you pay for an elite player/closer. Would you rather hold onto Torres, Warren and McKinney and see Chapman take the mound in a Nats or Giants uniform in October or in a Cubs uniform? I’ll like the Cubs uniform. If all works out, Cubs can resign him after the WS parade! #FlyTheW #TrustTheo
What if you have Chapman but don’t win it this year? You’ve sacrificed the future for 20-30 innings of a guy who wont even give you a draft pick compensation. This makes no sense from Chicagos perspective no matter how you spin it.
Unless they win the WS…
Do you really think that losing Torres and McKinney sacrifices the Cubs future? It is a high cost, but it’s not like they are giving up Bryant and Russell here. The Cubs are trading guys will probably never be able to crack the Cubs lineup. The Cubs are still set up to be very strong for the next decade regardless of what happens with Torres or McKinney.
You seem to fail to understand how prospects are valued. Educate yourself.
You seem to fail to understand how baseball works. The point is to win the World Series not to continually collect potential. Beside, it doesn’t matter how good a prospect is if he can’t get into the lineup. It’s not like they can move Torres to LF because that’s where their catchers play.
They had a really good chance of winning the world series already this year, before this trade, and by getting rid of all these guys they are sacrificing their chances of winning it several years down the road. How do you not understand that?
I don’t think so:
Almora
Soler
Schwarber
Baez
Bryant
Russell
Contreras
Jimenez
The Cubs bullpen is avg @ best. And where was Torres going to play? Is he going to take Russell’s job? Jump ahead of Baez? Bench Bryant? Prospects are only that until you can see what they can do at the major league level. Which the Cubs have in all of their current infielders. He’s expendable. And an elite closer has a price tag. And they paid it. With nothing that is costing them their future. A #26 ranked prospects and some other randoms. You should really educate yourself in how baseball works. And how hard it is to actually win a World Series. 108 years. You think you would want a light out bullpen piece. Elite players cost high prices.
I think you fail to realize how prospects are valued. You’ve never been in a negotiation. You’ve never been on a phone call. You have no clue what other teams were offering. If a Hall of Fame baseball executive says this is what prospects are worth, then I’ll take his words over some random guy posting to a board.
Just because I am random does not make me wrong. Just because an exec in in the HOF doesn’t make him right either. Perhaps you should look into taking a job for the Diamondbacks. They have a Hall of Famer making roster decisions. Perhaps you will get along well.
And I also negotiated for a living. It’s what enabled me to retire at 45 and have these titillating discussions in the middle of the day.
whether mckinney and torres are blocked or not, they are resources. just because you have a wealth of them, or you don’t need them, it doesn’t mean you just throw them around willy nilly, like they don’t mean anything. otherwise, why don’t billionaires just throw stacks of cash out of the car window when they are driving down the highway or use $100 bills for toilet paper?
blowing these resources the way they have on chapman for 2 months eliminates the opportunity they otherwise had on acquiring a much more valuable asset. i mean if you look at it, if you add soler and schwarber to the deal, you are well on your way to having a discussion over acquiring chris sale. would you rather have chapman, soler, schwarber and maybe another prospect or chris sale? wouldn’t that also make them even bigger favorites for a ws ring this year too?
Yes, but if billionaires NEED something, they don’t hesitate to spend money on it. This isn’t throwing money out a car window. This is using currency in purchasing a luxury item for yourself. Billionaires have no problem doing that. If a person with completely disposable income wants a car, they buy a car right then and there. If a middle class person wants a car, they have to talk it over and think about it and shop around and then eventually decide to buy it.
It makes you uninformed. You can’t say something was an overpay without a baseline of market value. You lack the baseline.
A billionaire buying a car isn’t a good example because the scale is all wrong. buying a car, which would probably be somewhere around $1-2M at most, is a drop in the bucket for a billionaire, of course they won’t think twice about an impulse buy for something like that. but if you look at the magnitude of moving torres and mckinney for the cubs, and scale it properly to this analogy of billionaire’s finances, this is closer to one making $50-100M stadium renovations. and those, i can promise, are not impulse decisions.
The renovations is a much worse example because Torres and McKinney do not represent 5-10% of the talent on the Cubs. You are looking at it just from a prospect standpoint, I am looking at the big picture which includes big league talent. From that standpoint, Torres and McKinney are much closer to the car.
They didn’t give up anyone that was a clear piece for the future. Any important piece is under contract for 3+ years. This “the Cubs mortgaged the future” is ridiculous.
It doesn’t matter how far away they are, Dansby Swanson was quite a ways away when the Braves traded for him. The Cubs are absolutely sacrificing the future, there is no debate. Chapman isn’t controllable beyond this year.
“Dansby Swanson was quite a ways away when the Braves traded for him”
No, he wasn’t. Bad example. Dansby Swanson was arguably “major league ready” the day he was drafted.
How, exactly, are they sacrificing the future? Educate us.
And Swanson has still done NOTHING yet. Quit assuming he has already worked out. He has as much chance to fail as any other prospect. He could be great, but he could also flop. You are like talking to a wall, I am done with you. Have a nice day,
“He has as much chance to fail as any other prospect.”
Highly disagree. He may not become a superstar, but he’ll more than likely be a very solid player. His floor is significantly higher than most other prospects.
Well, considering Shelby Miller and his 8 ERA was given in return, I would much rather have a guy with elite potential than a worthless starter who played so bad he earned himself a demotion.
Because Torres could have contributed to their 2018-2024 World Series chances. Much more preferable than 2 months of Chapman.
But what does any of this have to do with Aroldis Chapman? The Cubs? Their prospects? None of what you’re saying is equitable and is a bad analogy/parallel.
The only thing you can say is that the Cubs can afford this type of sacrifice. The dbacks couldn’t but did it anyways.
Fail was perhaps too strong a word. Maybe a better word would be disappointment. Is the #1 overall pick is not a superstar, then it could be argued that he is a disappointment Tim Beckham is in the majors, but can you really say he is not a disappointment? Would Lucas Giolito be a disappointment as the #1 prospect in baseball if he pitched 10-12 years in the majors and never made an All Star team? If Dansby Swanson turn into Chipper Jones, then of course it is a great move for the Braves, but what if he turns into Gordon Beckham or worse? The main point here is that Swanson is still an unknown commodity.
But Eric what you fail to realize is that everything you’re saying is based on what YOU want. Not whats in the best interest of the Cubs. Theo doesn’t just throw around prospects and he knows how to build a team. You can go ahead and dispute that but then i would ask for your credentials.
Even if Torres does not match his superstar potential and is merely a league average player, in the 6 years of control the Cubs would have over him he would still be far more valuable than 2 months of Chapman. Combine that with McKinney and that’s still a huge overpay. The only way this return would make even the least bit of sense would be if they got Miller as well.
Consider the Pomeranz trade that happened just last week. Boston gave up ONE prospect (who was rated near Torres on top prospect lists) and they have Pomeranz through 2018. The Red Sox gave up less for 2.5 years an above average starter than the Cubs did for 2 months of an elite reliever. Relief pitchers are being valued higher than starters in this market. That is just crazy.
There is no denying Theo’s success as a GM. I’m a Red Sox fan and I’m grateful for his contributions. But let’s be honest he has made some questionable decisions in the past. Crawford, Lugo, Drew, Dice-k, the Adrian Gonzalez trade (yes he did produce for a few years but can you imagine if Rizzo was still with Boston?) and with the Cubs giving Heyward 180 million, Edwin Jackson, and now this trade.
How dare you question the God of baseball.
@priggs lmao right? Cubs fans who love this trade will just cry all the more harder when they lose in the playoffs once again.
Edwin Jackson really wasn’t that big of a deal. He was acquired more or less to just man up a roster while they rebuilt the team. It was stupid of them trying to sell him off to fans as being a good pitcher, but I think they knew what they were getting with him
As for the Red Sox move and Theo. Of course, hindsight says Crawford was a horrible deal. But look what he thought he was buying. He was getting a 29 year old OFer who had a .296 career BA, .337 OBP, .781 OPS, and averaged 12 HRs and stole 45 bases per year on average. Since his Tampa days Crawford has averaged only 80 games per season, a .271 BA, .310 OBP, .717 OPS, 5 HRs, and 12 SBs per year. You can’t fault a guy for not being able to tell the future. Same goes for Lugo, But at least Lugo was a beast in the 2007 post season for the Sox. Daisuke was good before he got injured. You can’t blame Theo for not foreseeing an injury. As for Gonzalez. Yeah he gave up Rizzo. But it isn’t like Gonzalez has turned to shit since being dealt for. Since 2011 Gonzalez has average 148 games, 22 HRs, .296 BA, .356 OBP, and a .837 OPS. That isn’t bad. Sure it’s not the power numbers he put up in San Diego, but the only reason this is a “bad” move is because Cherington fire sold everyone because Valentine had no control over that team.
It’s not like any of those player were rental players….. rental RELIEVERS at that. And it isn’t that i think any of these prospects are even going to pan out…. I really don’t. It’s just that they currently have more value than just netting a friggin reliever. I think we both can agree this Chapman deal is pretty bad. IMO it’s worse than anything he did in Boston. All those players Boston complains about and rips on Theo over were great moves at the time for great players and I’m willing to bet when he signed Crawford people were thrilled. When they traded for Gonzalez they were probably bummed about Rizzo but still, at least it was for Gonzalez. Lugo was a solid player before Boston. While he struggled the 1 year he came up HUGE in the ’07 post season. He hit .385 with a .500 OBP in the world series for fu**s sake. Difference between those moves and this one is that when this one was made there is a very vocal portion of Cub fans realizing this is a horrible deal the second it was made.
Great response from Cardinal Nation
Comparing Pomeranz, who has a varied track record, mostly as a reliever, and an injury history, to Chapman, who has an excellent and consistent record, is quite a stretch.
You’re not sacrificing anything. These prospects are already blocked by young All-Stars that we already have. They were never going to see major league time on this club.
What if the Cubs get plagued by injuries for the next few years, and it turns out this was their only shot? Look at Kansas City. I don’t think they thought they wouldn’t contend this year. Look at the injuries that hit both LA teams. The short term outlook is more accurate than any long term assumption.
Great move- the Nats blew it- now they’ll be going in the post season with a closer with a mid 3 era and diminished stuff. Unless they now overpay for Wade Davis
Suddenly the Kimbrel trade looks like a steal
That was my first thought
The Kimbrel trade looks like fair value. A win-win for both teams.
That’s beyond laughable. The prospects goin back to SD in the Kimbrel trade were some of the best in baseball. Not just one of the best in their organization. There’s a huge difference. And you should know this
You do realize that Gleyber is currently a top 25-30 prospect, don’t you? Margot was rated #25 by MLB.com at the time of the trade (#39 this year). Guerra was ranked #76. McKinney was #75 to start the season. So no, there isn’t a huge difference. Check your facts.
And I believe Guerra has struggled pretty badly as well. Really the only potentially elite prospect was Margot. Looks like fair value to me.
McKinney may have been #75 to start the year, but he’s regressed big time at AA and is having a terrible year.
That’s not really the point… The point is that the prospects going back to SD were far from being “some of the best in baseball,” and in fact, they weren’t even ranked any better than the ones going back to the Yankees in this deal…
lefties rake at Yankee Stadium
You should probably look at the years on the Chapman and Kimbrel contracts. The Cubs pretty much paid the same for 3 months of Chapman as the Sox paid for 3 years of Kimbrel.
Exactly. Someone else agrees with me and is aware of player value.
The only other living organisms on Earth the last time the Cubs won a World Series are Galapagos Turtles and Giant Redwoods. Hard to fault the front office for trying to increase the odds.
Although not entirely true, this is easily the comment of the week. Cheers!
True, we could easily add Sequoia and Bristle Cone Pine trees, though I believe the Wholly Mammoths were long gone. And no I am not making fun or light of the Cubs’ epic drought.
HUGE OVERPAY. Barring an extension or a world series championship Theo was robbed in this one. I’m excited and upset at the sametime
This trade is not a huge overpay. Torres is a fantastic lottery ticket, and Warren had been good previously as a Yankee. Billy McKinney & it seems Rashad Crawford are both not huge losses at all. McKinney was more highly regarded but has stalled out this year at AA. He’s a RF with little power. Crawford is an A+ CF who hasn’t distinguished himself as much past a lower level prospect. For this the Cubs got the best reliever in baseball and a left-handed one. As a lifelong Cub fan I understand the fear of trading away highly regarded prospects, it’s all we have really had in my lifetime outside of a half dozen or so playoff flameouts. I don’t care for Chapman as a human being, but he might be the best possible addition to the best front office approach and possibly the team Cub fans have ever experienced.
Awesome to read a post from a very knowledgable Cubs fan. Great post.
Those scrappy little hard-luck Cubs
Now that the Chapman deal is done we can move on to Sale.
Severino, Eovaldi, Mateo, Judge, McCann & Shreve for Sale
Why would the Yankees do that? They’re attempting to build the farm system, not gut it.
The farm system is really deep and the goal is never to build the farm system. The goal is to build the best major league team you can build. You always want to get young elite controllable starting pitching. Sale is young cheap left handed and a number one starter.
None of the traded players are guaranteed to be better than Sale is right now.
Trading McCann would open a spot for Sanchez and save money while making the team younger. Eovaldi and Severino help make up for the loss of Sale from the Sox perspective and are unlikely to ever be as good as Sale is in addition to being left handed.
Mateo and Judge are very good prospects but aren’t really needed.
It’s a painful price to pay but it’s worth it and also about market rate.
Exactly right. Everyone has somehow decided that having a good farm system is more important than having a good big league team and that just puzzles me to no end. Although I do question your logic of why the White Sox would take McCann when they would probably ask for Sanchez instead.
I think his immediate impact in the line up and in the club house are both things they would value. They might prefer Sanchez and I would still work on a deal but I think Sanchez is a bigger chip and they would have to drop someone else from the package.
Amen, brother. I salute the Cubs management and their determination to break the curse even at the cost of some part of their future.
I agree with your point, but that proposal is directly out of a video game and has no basis in reality at all.
To start, Judge, Mateo, Torres & Sanchez keeps the White Sox on the line, take anyone out and the Rangers and Red Sox could easily best that deal. No reason for Chicago to deal him for not the best package they can get.
The system really isn’t that deep, the Sox don’t want to pay McCann, and you can’t have Sale start every playoff game.
I’m a rangers fan and it’s clear what the yankees are trying to do. Collect young (CHEAP) talent, and clear the books for 2018. It’s not hard to figure out. Overpay for big free agents while paying the rest of your roster next to nothing. Why would they trade that talent away?
That’s pretty much what the Cubs have been doing.
Not that painful. Eovaldi is worthless. Severino has backed up a lot. Mateo is suspended for character stuff. Judge is good. Shreve is a middle reliever and has very little value, plus he gets points off for being named “Chasen,” and if the White Sox are rebuilding what do they want with McCann?
You can’t be serious
Why would the Sox take on McCann’s salary? Or take on how bad Eovaldi is this year? One can dream though. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees used some pieces they just acquired for Sale if they seriously want him.
Yankees would have to pay some of his salary and he’s a pretty big upgrade.
Eovaldi is serviceable and someone I bet they think they could fix or flip. Severino and Eovaldi would help offset the lost of Sale and play competitive ball this year.
I think the deal gives them a big return and allows them to remain competitive while improving the major league club and the farm system at the same time.
Oddly enough, I wouldn’t make that deal. Why? Our problems are so huge that Sale alone won’t solve them. We need Sev and Judge to plug holes next year. Sale is great but the Yanks aren’t a total contender with him and Tanaka only.
Yanks should be all about collecting near mlb ready prospects and then supplement our remaining needs this winter via trades or free agency.
If Hahn were crazy enough to accept that, you’d be clueless to not accept it. You could immediately put Sake on the market and get a lot more value than that.
What sense would it make to trade for Sale just to trade him again? Why wouldn’t the team we would conceivably trade him to just work out a trade directly with the White Sox?
I totally disagree that the problems are so huge. They have two huge needs in a middle of the order bat and a number one left handed starter in my mind and this fixes the more difficult of the two needs.
They is no way I would pass on the biggest need of the team so that could build up quantity in the minor leagues.
Building a bunch of assets in the minor leagues also guarantees you nothing in the majors next year or really ever. We just traded Chapman for an A ball short top who doesn’t impact the major league team for about 3 years.
Are you saying every player on the team other tan Tanaka has no value to a world series team?
You just traded for 4 players. One that can help you now (Warren), a 21 yo OF who’s played 165 games @ AA and could be in the MLB next year (McKinney). Craford is a toolsy long shot and the the obvious prize is Torres who many say can stick @ SS or move to 2nd or maybe even 3rd if needed. Given that we have two youngsters in Didi and Starlan for the next 3-4 years we can see how he fits in.
As for the state of the Yanks, we are no where near a good team. We are neither a deep starting pitching staff as after Tanaka there’s a deep drop off in our starting depth AND the talented yet under performing guys like Evoldi and Pineda are FA after next season. Our offense is dreadful. We are well below average. If Beltran is traded today our best power hitters are McCann w/ 14 and Didi and Castro at 11 each!! That’s embarrassing and there aren’t any quick fixes in FA which means that the trade market or building from within is the best way to supplement our needs.
I think we need to turn Beltran, Miller, Gardner, Nova, Headley and if possible, Sabathia, into young controllable prospects. Throw those into the mix with our obvious prospects and see what we can use for 2017 and THEN make the trades and FA acquisitions strategically.
Trading Judge, Severino, Mateo and others for Sale gives you 3 years of a true #1 starter on a very mediocre team that MAYBE makes the playoffs but almost certainly gets bumped in the first round. I’m not afraid to see the Yanks suck for another year if it means being a much better and younger team in 2018.
I like how Yankees fans shoehorn Eovaldi into every trade scenario. Lulz
Exactly like what Cubs fans constantly did with Vogelbach and Red Sox fans are currently doing with Swihart.
Swihart and Vogelbach have infinity times more upside than Eovaldi
Swihart doesn’t have much value. I like how some Red Sox fans who make proposals have him as the centerpiece.
Sox aren’t trading Swihart unless a GM values him what they know he is worth and as a catcher.
Except he can’t catch and is currently in the OF, he’s not valued as a catcher.
Maybe Eovaldi could be traded for Markakis and Swihart in a three team deal?
Ummmm…because GMs love those 97 mph guys who they drool over the opportunity to try and fix him. Will he demand a top 100 prospect? Of course not, but would teams be willing to trade a high risk/high reward toolsy guy from the DL or low minors for 1 1/2 seasons? Yep.
I just have to chuckle a little bit because so many people said “no way Theo would do a trade like this”. Guess he would. Honestly though, if you’re going to go big, might as well. I am not a Cubs fan, but it sure would be cool to see that 108 year curse lifted. If that happens, to me it would all be worth it.
This deal is garbage. The cubs could have given up as much as they did for this deal and the deal for montgomery this week and gotten something that’ll last longer than 40 innings of chapman and mike montgomery. What they gave up could have netted taijaun walker or aaron sanchez….. or even sonny gray. Walker would solidify the pitching staff 3 years from now , sanchez would lock down their bullpen right now and the rotation from next year on, and sonny gray obviously would just be unreal. This was insane. I love theo more than my own mother, but he screwed the pooch on this one.
You do realize Aaron Sanchez has been starting for Toronto and that he has been there best pitcher. That package would not get Aaron Sanchez.
And definitely not Sonny Gray lol
Great haul for the Yankees. To get 2 top 5 guys from a decent farm system is pretty nice. The fact that both prospects are top 100 guys is even better. If they can rehab Warren back to what he was when with the Yanks previously would make it incredible.
We shouldn’t stop here. I would actively shop Miller, Beltran, Gardner, Headley, Nova and even McCann although he would probably veto a trade.
And I would eat as much cash as possible if it meant being able to move Sabathia, Tex or Arod and get even a marginal prospect, even though they all have no trade clauses.
McKinney is not a top 100 prospect, and any list that he may be in the top 100 is not a very accurate one. This is still quite a haul for a player you can sign back 5 days after the world series.
He was ranked 75 or thereabouts by several services.
Yes,..
McKinney is a Top 100 Prospect
About #74-#88.
He was when in pre-season rankings. He’s taken a large step back this year in AA
Beltran and Nova should be dealt because both are FA’s after this season. Teixeira has no value except to the Yanks this year still.
Yanks will have Bird and Judge in the lineup next year.
Yanks did great getting so much for a rental closer they didn’t need.
2017 Yankees:
1B) Bird
2B) Castro
SS) Gregorius
3B) Headley
C) McCann
LF) Gardner
CF) Ellsbury
RF) Judge
DH) A-Rod
FA Targets should be among the following:
Trumbo, Napoli, Turner, Encarnacion
and Pitchers: Fister, Hill and re-sign Chapman.
YES!
Not a bad move for the Cubs. I don’t care for Chapman as a person but he’s been a good NL pitcher; that’s a very deep bullpen now with Wood, Chapman and Montgomery from the left side and Rondon and Strop from the right. McKinney hasn’t been particularly good this season but he is still a nice prospect and Torres obviously is a terrific piece. Warren had no place on the Cubs roster but the Yankees need arms desperately, especially if they manage to move Nova or CC. I’m guessing the 4th player won’t be much of anything.
The Cubs gave up more than they got, but this is a team going all in and in the postseason the matchup options for Maddon are going to be pretty remarkable.
Not to mention that Carl Edwards Jr. has blossomed and might be the hardest to hit reliever they have from the right side. His metrics point to him being extremely dominant. Perceived fastball velocity vs. actual velocity is like +2.0 mph…and he already throws 96mph. Also has a pretty good hook.
2 weeks ago it looked like the Cubs had no help. Now the Cubs pen is looking like the Royals pen from last year all of a sudden.. Going to be 6 inning ballgames all over the place.
I don’t think you need to qualify Chapman as only a “good NL pitcher.” He had pretty much the same ERA in the vaunted AL East as he did in the NL Central last year. Oh and the NL Central last year had the three best records in the game, so it was probably a tougher division than the AL East anyway.
They had the three best records? Um, of course they did – they were playing the basement dwellers in the central. Not to mention the Padres, Phillies, Braves, etc.
Chapman’s numbers are better than I thought with the Yanks; his K rate is down quite a bit but that might just be SSS.
Four players for 40 innings of Chapman? That’s insane. What’s worse, Chapman will likely return to the Yankees in the offseason. Overwhelming win for the Yankees. They get Starlin Castro, the Cubs top prospect and another prospect for nothing. NOTHING. Warren and Chapman were essentially fish bait. Ridiculous.
Wouldn’t it be worse if the Cards or Pirates sign him?
It’s not “4 players” its one (currently bad) player and three lottery tickets who have never set foot in the bigs, and honestly, only one of them looks cant-miss, and even then, he’s only 19. This was an excellent trade for the Cubs. If you want a trade that suits your overwrought hyperbole, Miller-Swanson++ and the Reds package from the Yankees is far more suitable.
Starlin Castro is also a below average baseball player
Will it be ridiculous if the Cubs win the WS?
It seems there is a huge difference in the perception of value assigned to an elite reliever between fans and GMs.
Oh, really? Fans are stupid because we don’t value the 3 month rental of a reliever who pitches 1 inning a game over young, controllable assets? When Chapman leaves in the offseason, where is his value then?
I can see you’re very angry right now. I didn’t say any of what you just said. I’m simply stating that the perception of what kind of package Chapman would bring back was very different from a fan’s perspective than reality.
To answer your question, the value comes in shutting down an inning for the playoffs, protecting the lead, winning the game. You should be happy. Your team is the favorite to win the World Series.
If you win the World Series, it’s a great move. If you don’t, theo looks pretty bad, especially if chapman comes back to NY. That means the Cubs will have given the Yankees Castro, Torres, McKinney, and Crawford with absolutely nothing to show for it.
..alot of value if you win your ever-elusive WS.
In he ring he helped win
Torres and McKinney were overrated, based on this year’s performances. McKinney was expendable, not showing any power and no average. Torres has a great future, but he’s years away from contributing and only leaped Eloy Jimenez and others this year because Jimenez took longer to get going. EJ will be Cubs top prospect by season’s end, and Cubs still have a deep farm. Cubs are trying to win the World Series this year, so that’s the price you have to pay: potential for potential. Hopefully, no matter this year’s ending, they can resign Chapman.
Haha I was waiting for this kind of post.
Haha I’m shocked it took that long to get it.
I guarantee you (put that in bold italics, bold red and underline it) had a Yankee fan proposed a trade for Chapman and just the two top prospects alone, Cubs fan would’ve been in uproar accusing us of asking for way too much. Suddenly, Torres is the next Ryne Sandberg and McKinney the next Billy Williams. We can’t win.
So anyone you guys trade become overrated?! stupid bandwagon fans.
totally agree. the cubs management staff have made some good deals and you have to pay big if you want to win. I been a die hard cub fan for 50 years and I am hoping this is the year. Go Cubs!!!!
wow…Cubs looking desperate here for a rental
Guessing they won’t let Contreras catch for him without a lot of practice.
I don’t think that Epstein/Hoyer would’ve done it without some assurance of an extension. I figure an extension is upcoming. As far as the overpay, maybe yes if A. Cubs don’t win the WS or B. If he doesn’t sign an extension. Look at the players, Torres, yes Cubs top prospect, but blocked by Bryant, Russell, and Baez all three of which are 24 or younger. Billy MckInney’s stock had really fallen, Warren had been sent to the minors, and the Rashad guy, who? I don’t see a huge overpay when we live in the here and now,
Living in the “here and now,” It is an overpay for a 3 month rental.
Trading four players to rent a relief pitcher is an overpay. Especially when one of the players is your #1 prospect.
Not if you want to keep him off of your two biggest competitors for the NL slot in the WS. If you are the Cubs would you rather pay 4 guys that are not helping you right now (and might never help) for Chapman or face him in the playoffs with the Giants or Nats? Easy answer in my book.
You havent had a WS title in 100 years….now’s your chance.
Now…..not later.
(…or prospect-hug and add to your 100+ streak…)
This is good for the Cubs.
Blocked? Injuries never happen in Chicago isn’t some guy sitting out all year with a broken leg already was he blocking people too?
Soler was another one of those “blockers” guy doesn’t look like a major leaguer now, It will be cause for national celebration when Posey walks off against Chapman and the cubs fandom implodes once again.
Why so bitter?
Well sure then by all means keep lots of prospects at 3-4 positions just in case of iinjury and leave your bullpen vulnerable even when everyone is healthy. Exactly what are you going to do with all of those prospects when Rule 5 draft time rolls around? You only have 40 spots available and you could have easily lost McKinney for nothing in the Rule 5.
So why include Torres? It is kind of hard to say a SS is blocked since they can play just about any where on the field, vulnerable bullpen, their was about 20 other RP’s on the market.
Because you have to give something in order to get something. The Nats were willing to give up Fedde + 2 other prospects. You aren’t paying for what Chapman is theoretically worth. You are paying to beat the Nats (and others) packages. Facing Scherzer and Strasburg with Papelbon closing in the NLCS is going to be tough enough. Do you really want to face them with Papelbon AND Chapman in their last 2 innings?
So Cashman held a gun to their head? . You don’t have to give up any thing when teams ask for that you simply walk away and look at other options.
And then what happens when Chapman the Washington National has 3 saves against you in the NLCS and you start year 109 without a WS title? That was an option too.
What other options? The Yankees were in a seller’s market for Chapman especially with two NL playoff contenders going after him. That this raised the price should surprise exactly nobody.
second best post ive read so far.
Wade Davis for one that guy who is probably better than Chapman and not a Rental
And I read that the Royals are asking for Giolito for him, so it seems the cost is higher too.
That is my guess as well doubt Theo trades as much as he did without getting an extension with it.
Chapman doesn’t have to sign an extension if he doesn’t want to. And he doesn’t want to.
Once he sees how rabbid this fan base is and gets familiar with his teammates no doubt his preference will be to resign with Chicago
Agreed, it’s not like the yanks are just going to give him away for nothing either
Nope, no extension. Chapman is testing the open market whether you like it or not!
You may be right but my guess is they already have an idea what it will cost to keep on the open market and they are willing to pony it up to keep him. Unless someone’s comes on and gives him a ridiculous overpay the Cubs will probably match or pay more to keep him. They probably don’t do the deal they did if they didn’t think they could keep him.
That’s a problem. You NEVER trade for a pending free agent under the assumption that you will be able to keep him once the season is over. EVER! You assume he’s going to walk once the season is over, trade whatever you think 3 months of him is worth and if he does end up re-signing with you then that’s just gravy. Trading for Chapman now is not a prerequisite for signing him in the offseason.
And that possibility of a ridiculous overpay is exactly why Chapman isn’t taking an extension from anyone.
Theo is a smart guy a lot smarter than you or me. My guess he knows something we aren’t privy to because if they resign or he signs an extension or he re-signs suddenly it’s not a huge overpay. My guess, and it’s only a guess is that Theo has talked to Chapman and either feels very confident they can sign or that they have an extension already but who knows. It would seem to be quite an overpay for a three month rental. This would be outside of Theo’s normal MO on these types of trades so it leaves me to believe he knows what he is doing.
I don’t get why Chapman would even consider an extension right now. He may be the best player available this winter and many, many teams will bid on his services.
Limiting the market to just one team would be a very silly move for a great player.
I strongly doubt he signs any extension.
Oh my god, shut up! Chapman isn’t taking an extension, END OF STORY!
Settle down these are just opinions and everyone has there opinion mine happens to be that Theo knows what he is doing and that Chapman will be a Cub for more than just this year. You don’t know really and I don’t know really it’s just opinion.
It is a FACT, not an opinion, that taking an extension would be the biggest mistake Chapman could possibly make at this point. Theo can’t force Chapman to do anything. It is possible that Chapman will be a Cub for more than just 2016, but the Cubs will have to outbid 29 other teams to make that happen.
Wasn’t talking about just an extension reread the post was saying I’m sure that Theo has talked to him and is confident this isn’t a rental.
This IS a rental. Even if Chapman re-signs with the Cubs in the offseason it doesn’t mean they’re trading for several years of Chapman. It means they are trading for 3 months of Chapman, period. Then they are signing him to a multiyear free agent contract, period.
Honestly yanks should trade miller this year simply because the prices are so spiked. Then just resign chapman who has made it clear he would like to return to the club next year.
Not a bad idea. Trade Miller to the Nats or Indians for an even bigger return.
Anyone says that when they leave a situation they’re comfortable in
Thing is, the Yankees took on a chance on him despite his “baggage” and he may hold them in great regard because of it. Then again, winning and money are great motivators, and Cubs can offer both.
Lol. Where is everybody that was saying Chapman is worth less now than when he was traded in the offseason?
I got 2 letters for you – KB
(And he’s pissed to no surprise)
This is an absolutely horrible deal for the cubs. Huge overpayment for a rental. Increases their world series odds by 1%.
Not at all happy about this.
Do you even understand that baseball teams are supposed to win games? Prospects do not help that, Chapman does.
Indians/Cubs WS, book it.
Great example of why Cubs have not won in a century.. Yuckees get a SS and OF studs for years to come. Cubs get forked, they are done.
I’ll give you SS (potentially), but you’re severely overrating the OF’ers they received.
2016.
Your Cubs are significantly better today.
When did you guys last win a World Series ???
Now’s your chance…
Much better team than yesterday.
Yeah, how will they ever compete with only Fowler,Heyward,Schwarber,Soler,Almora, Bryant, Contreras or Zobrist in the OF with only Jimenez,Dewees, Happ, Wilson, Hanneman, Zagunis or Eddy Julio Martinez coming up the pipeline
Not sure how this impacts the ML team. It’s still an overpay, but the Cubs still have Zagunis, Almora, Candelario, Ian Happ, and a lot more talent in the minors. Not to mention not all prospects are studs, or guarantees.. It feels like a tough pill to swallow, but you’ve acquired a great closer, and the silver lining is that Clayton Richards probably get’s DFA.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you GM. Take a bow Mr. Cashman.
He did very good. And let’s not discount that the Yankees on paper were drawn up as a very good team preseason. I’m 40 and 25 years of watching every game, I can’t remember such a poor start to the season. Frankly 5 or 6 of the April games were a trainwreck from bad umping to baffling things a couple players did on the field that cost them games. Has the Yanks won even 5 of those games, the conversation is vastly different right now. And yes, if you’re gonna GM it, this is how it’s done, buy low, sell high.
Who cares if they gave 4 players they’re going for it all
To me it is not a huge overpay. Chapman is arguably the best closer in baseball, and other teams were also bidding for his services. Would Theo of liked to give up less, sure, but then Chapman might be pitching for the Nationals or Giants this postseason.
Also, other than Warren, they are all UNPROVEN PROSPECTS, without one of them even playing at the AAA level yet. Essentially they are lottery tickets.
If I were a Cubs fan I would be extremely happy. You only have so many chances to compete for a World Series?
Loosing these players will not harm the Cubs future in any significant way.
Everyone saying “this is too much for a rental” has forgotten that the Cubs haven’t won the World Series in 108 years. I understand why many of us have gotten used to the whole “we must deem a winner and a loser in every trade” thing, but you simply cannot pull that here. This is no different to when the A’s traded Russell for Samardzija – if you’re contending, you have to do this trade, prospects be damned. Is there a better, cheaper option than Chapman on the market? No. Cubs did not get taken, if anything the Reds got taken for how little they got for Chapman from the Yankees, which is definitely the kind of trade you can all have your little “win/loss” arguments over.
GM’s will always value winning now over prospects, it’s odd how the peanut gallery thinks the opposite. It’s far-removed from reality, many of you need that checked.
Honestly Major League Baseball should consider having a loan system like they have in European Soccer/Football leagues. The Cubs could have rented Chapman from the Yanks just for the playoffs. You would see alot of guys like Sale and Trout being rented out as well. While it wouldn’t be “Glamorous” to win a World Series while playing on a rental system, it would certainly make the market more interesting and the whole rebuilding process would be much easier for teams like Chicago and Los Angeles.
“While it wouldn’t be “Glamorous” to win a World Series while playing on a rental system”
We already saw this, the Marlins have two titles via this method. It’s not fun and sucks to watch as a fan of any other team that isn’t winning with it.
You seem to misunderstand. The Marlins built their championships through the farm. But afterward their GM traded everyone. That isn’t what I’m talking about. A last place team with a few star players could “loan” them to contending teams for cash, draft picks, prospects, etc. That team would still have that player under contract though. Renting Mike Trout to, say, the Indians would not mean Mike Trout now plays for the Indians. He would return to LA once the agreed upon “rental period” is over.
No need to mansplain what renting is, I’m not an idiot. My point is the Marlins definitely bought in guys (Pudge, Bonilla et al) who they immediately let go after they won, so it is a similar notion that you seem to want to split hairs over. But its absolutely not what MLB is about and I couldn’t possibly think of a worse idea and one the MLBPA definitely won’t do. For example, if you were “renting” a SP, what would stop a manager from pitching him until his arm explodes?
“mansplain” lmao wtf?!?!
If the Cubs would have gotten Miller it would have been a wrap
I like it for both teams. If Cubs go all the way, with Chapman blowing away the last hitters to nail down the Series, I doubt that the cost is going to worry people all that much. And the Cubs can sign Chapman to an extension, if he’s open to it. As for the Yankees–they are just prospects–but the Yankees need youth and athleticism and this really helps. I like getting Warren back–if he can work things out, he’s a useful swingman on a roster that has a lot of frail arms.
He’s not open to an extension.
are you his agent? or do you just like repeating yourself? saying it multiple times does not make you any more profound.
You don’t have to be his agent to know that taking an extension would be the biggest mistake he could possibly make at this point.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with overpaying if you have the resources. Anything is always worth what someone is willing to pay.
Yes it’s an overpay, but they have a real chance to win the title. Not just a maybe if we are lucky chance. If they win, it affects people’s lives – just like it did for Boston in ’04. It’s an overpay but they really have to take this opportunity. To say, nah we’ll take our chances doesn’t work here. Just my opinion. (Boston fan who is so glad to have seen 3 titles. They last forever. Sorry Nomar).
Great trade..Torres is blocked forever and the rest are middling pieces where 2 are of use..u don’t have a litter n keep em all..Cubs will go sign a shit ton of top international prospects again when they’re allowed..great for both sides, hope warren can get back on track.
Let me see, a bunch of wannabe baseball gms or Theo the great Epstien, hmmmmm, I think I’m going with Theo on this one. Lol
I need to be the sole voice of reason here. Even some of the baseball pundits overlook this. I’m a Yankee fan and applaud Theo Epstein. Sure, it was a healthy return for the Yanks and something that you can credit Cashman with — he gave up a bunch of C prospects and got back a couple A types in 6 months. That said, for the Cubs this is NOT an overpay when looking at the bigger picture. This is team that has not won a WS in 115 years. They are positioned about as good as ever to win it this year and you give up whatever it takes to get that done. This is not about mortgaging the future as the future is now for the Cubs. Furthermore, while this was a big package, they’re just prospects and there will always be more prospects. They’re expendable regardless of some handbook that says how good they’ll be in 5 years. For the Cubs, a WS is a once in a 115 year proposition. Bravo and for as critical of Epstein as I was when he was with the Sox, this is what I call getting it done. Good luck to the Cubs.
Thank you, Baseball Legend – for a realistic view.
The Cubs fans are wining about the ‘future’ ???
Wishing no luck to the Cubs – they now have a better chance to actually win a Title .
This isn’t difficult to grasp.
“I need to be the sole voice of reason here.”
Yeah, you repeated what like half the people are saying. So “sole” is wrong.
“I’m a Yankee fan”
Oh, that explains it.
This is a great deal for the Yankees.
War Eagle
I thought this guy was persona non grata. Did the Yankees effectively launder him?
Honestly with these jacked valuations yanks have to trade miller for an even bigger haul. Then they can simply resign chapman who has made it clear he would like to resign.
One other thing, this package actually is not a robbery:
Torres: 19 years old. Looks very good, but is 19 years old and is 3+ years away at best
Warren: in MLB, sucks this year
McKinney: 1 HR in a full year at AA by a supposed bat-first OF with a bad body
Crawford: 4th OF type at best
So, uh, yeah. This looks okay for a rental.
Agreed. Also, Torres is terrible defensively at short, and on the basepaths
Man, the Reds look stupid. They got less for trading a full year of Chapman than the Yankees will get for trading two months of Chapman. Assuming he doesn’t sign an extension. Either way they look like idiots.
they sold low.
but from their perspective, they are probably happy that they saved half of Chapmans salary by trading him when they did.
or they just wanted an accused abuser off their team that bad.
makes you wonder why the Cubs didnt just go get him then- Rendon is the same guy he was back then.
it’s not like the Cubs couldnt afford to sign Chapman if they wanted to.
Jeeze with all this negativity no wonder the cubs never win it all. It’s like you don’t want that.
I’m guessing that most Cubs fans outside of this forum are fist-pumping this deal because they do want to see the curse broken and they know they will never have a better opportunity to win it all than now. I would not take the opinions of the wannabe GMs around here who think the goal of baseball is building a great farm team and protecting it, even at the cost of winning a championship, as being representative of anything.
Agreed. As a Cubs fan, it kind of feels like a tough pill to swallow, but Chapman is a huge upgrade over virtually the entire pen. My only concern is that Rondon has not been good in non-save situations, so hopefully moving him to 8th inning duties won’t be an issue. Even though the Cubs gave up 2 promising prospects, they still have a lot of depth coming up in the near future (Happ, Zagunis, Candelario, Almora — permanently, etc). Prospects are just that though, and elite pitching doesn’t exactly come out of the ground when you need it.
This might be called a belt and suspenders move, but as an LA fan I admit to some envy. Our drought hasn’t gone on as long as yours, but I do wish we had a GM who understands the fans’ pain as yours clearly does.
Look folks the Cubs are the favorite… This solidifies a weak spot and if the Cubs win the WS this year I don’t think anyone is going to complain. Amazing job by the Yankees of buying low and selling very high.
Normally, based on what the Cubs gave up, I’d be happy tearing this trade apart like a baby with gift wrap paper, but truthfully, if the Cubs can nab a historic World Series win out of this, then without a doubt it would be worth it. Interesting to see what happens. The Cubs can only hope Chapman doesn’t take after Heyward.
The Cubs are 55-1 when leading into the 9th. 53-1 when leading into the 8th. 53-5 when leading into the 7th. Makes me wonder how many wins Chapman will really be worth to them assuming he is nearly unhittable and doesn’t blow any saves. That’s a pretty steep price for maybe a couple of wins.
This move wasn’t made for regular season wins. In a small sample when anything can and will happen, its an absolute necessity to have the very best players on your team.
Chapman makes the game 8 innings long. That’s what you paid for. Looking at it that way, it’s a fair trade.
It pushes all those guys who were holding those late innings leads earlier into games if need be. Plus, playoffs.
Yankees return is solid, Chapman wasn’t going to resign. As for the Reds, should of took the Arizona package at last years deadline. The domestic dispute led to a below average package for one of the game’s best closers. My hunch if the Cubs don’t resign Chapman it will be the Nationals or D’Backs that sign him. Both organizations have tried hard to obtain his services the past 2 years.
The Reds should have held on to Chapman earlier after the league leaked that domestic violence info in order to torpedo his trade value for the Reds. They could have kept him until late June/early July and gotten this kind of return or more (especially if the Cubs wanted him traded within the division). Reds panicked and messed up yet again.
Cub fan here. Definitely surprised that Chapman brought so much back in return. In my opinion, the Yanks played this out perfectly more so than the Cubs overpaying for him. I think it goes without saying that there were offers on the table that were very similar in nature to what the Cubs proposed. It’s also very important to send the right message to the guys in the locker room by making aggressive trades to help solidify your current roster. It’s easy to sit here and talk about how Torres, etc., was an overpay for Chapman. I’m guessing Arrieta, Lester, Ross, and company would probably disagree with that as their chances of winning a World Series greatly improved today. Theo is not going to sit back and watch the Mets Dodgers Giants and Nats load up while he sits on 18 and 19 year old prospects that are blocked by current great young Cub players anyway. My guess is he’s not done dealing yet. Personally I’d trade them all. Whats the worst that could happen? He has to start from scratch and rebuild the farm system again? Been there done that.
Cubs fan aren’t happy about this but where were any of the players they have traded going to play? Torres and Mickinney are blocked, as was Vogelbach. Warren was not very good for Chicago and Starlin Castro had to go to make room for Russell, lastella and Baez who cubs fans wanted to see anyway. So now the Cubs have a great chance of World Series contention and people will get upset over players who had no place to play? Makes sense..
Although I am a Yankee fan, I don’;t understand how any Cubs fan can be against this trade….you just got one of the premier closers in baseball without giving up a single player that is going to help your team in the near future,….when you have a chance to go for it, you go for it…..a 19 year old playing in single A is not even guaranteed to be a major leaguer, much less a player anywhere near the caliber of Chapman
uccman39:
Some Cubs fans here are just amazing.(SMH)
…. but winning big hasn’t really been much of a common theme with this franchise.
Completely agree.
Wow, if the Cubbies don’t win it all this year, this season will go down as an even bigger disaster than the Bartman year.
Not as much of an overpay as it first seems. Pre-season prospect rankings can be deceiving at the end of July. McKinney was looking like a solid player at the end of last year in high A ball, but hasn’t been able to figure out AA pitching. He’s regressed big time this year, with his OPS sitting at .677. Torres, while a promising talent, isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire at the plate in high A himself, but has improved from last year. His defense though. Were I a Yankees fan, I wouldn’t worry about needing to find him room at SS. The guy has 19(!) errors in 87 games this year, and 65(!) in his 263 game minor league career. He’s definitely an athletic talent though so I could see him being serviceable in LF.
It may have been wise for the Cubs brass to trade these guys now before their prospect stock dropped too much. Especially McKinney.
I love this.. People that don’t know the Cubs system at all talking all kind of boloney about how much the Cubs gave up. Torres, Castro, McKinney and Warren have no spot on this team. Russell will be at SS, Baez at 2B next season and for the next decade. Where will the guys being traded play?
“Where will the guys being traded play?”
In New York, apparently.
Haha, Yep.
The Cubs gave up a lot in pure baseball terms. And it seems even more to the people on this website because most of them are familiar with farm systems and prospects.
However, if any team can absorb that blow, it’s the Cubs. Like you said, Russel and Baez have the middle covered. And they have a bunch of outfield options making McKinney expendable. Not only that, but their system will STILL be highly regarded after this trade.
Even if they don’t win the WS this year. Even if they don’t re-sign Chapman now or in the off season. They will be alright and compete for the World Series the next few years. They’re just that good in the majors and minors.
Exactly, the need for a dominant closer like Chapman was there and they got it.
The Cubs have a crazy amount of young talent at the MLB level and in the minors. Trading a guy who is in high A ball for a guy who’s possibly the best at his position in a position of need for your team, is a no brainer. The other guys have some talent, but they are just not that good and/or not needed.
Your rationalizations for overpaying for players is pathetic. “The Cubs can make stupid lopsided trades like this because the players they’re giving up are all blocked and have nowhere to play…….. deeeerp”
Just because a player is blocked doesn’t mean he become arbitrary and meaningless. They accumulated all this talent and depth in the system in the form of position players to trade for pitching……. STARTING pitching. Not friggin relievers you can just buy in the offseason by the dozen. Imagine had the not made this move. 1) this team would still have excellent postseason odds and potential. 2) they’d still have all these prospects and players. and 3) if they lose in the postseason again, oh well……. at least they have a stellar team still and a system loaded with prospects still to wheel and deal with in the offseason…… when players aren’t blown up to ridiculous asking prices. Also, Chapman is a FA….. they could’ve kept all these guys and sign chapman in the offseason to make a harder push into next season. I would have been perfectly fine with that. I would have preferred that actually. They’ve burned through 3 and you can make a case for 4 solid prospects to acquire 2 f**king relievers. The 4 prospects they gave up could’ve been packaged together and they could have gotten a TOR quality, young starter instead. Or better yet, a near ML ready top pitching prospect. Torres, Vogelbach, Blackburn, Warren, McKinney, and Crawford could’ve landed Jose Quintana and then some.
Gotta like a Cubs fan that PREFERS to play for next year. Unfortunately for you, this might be the trade that actually puts them over the top.
I posted this earlier on another site and got only one response so I thought I would put it out there again, Here is a thought……They wanted Pomeranz from SD to in turn trade him for something bigger. Could this happen with Chapman??? Here they control which team he goes to and bring back prospects in positions we need. Think about it, Send him now to Texas, Baltimore or Cleveland who won’t worry us in the NL playoffs and their minor league is tops!!!! Never know, but all these rumors and moves just don’t sound like Theo!!!!! Always expect the unexpected!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wow, this team is absolutely stacked and extremely scary. Steep price to pay? Maybe. However, that’s why the Cubs developed so many young prospects…..to eventually trade them for the pieces they need. Keep in mind, the guys they traded have absolutely ZERO path to the majors. The Cubs already have extremely young All-Stars in those spots. The way I see it, they didn’t give up anything for Chapman. All in how you look at it.
They developed these position players to flip them for quality starting pitching and instead are pissing them away left and right for relievers. One of which is questionable and the other is a rental. Dumb. Don’t get me wrong, this bullpen is nasty now. But at a detrimental cost.
I posted this earlier on another site and got only one response so I thought I would put it out there again, Here is a thought……They wanted Pomeranz from SD to in turn trade him for something bigger. Could this happen with Chapman??? Here they control which team he goes to and bring back prospects in positions we need. Think about it, Send him now to Texas, Cleveland or Baltimore who won’t worry us in the NL playoffs and their minor league is tops!!!! Never know, but all these rumors and moves just don’t sound like Theo!!!!! Always expect the unexpected!!!!!!!!!!!
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White Sox fans. Serious question here. If you were offered Torres, Vogelbach, McKinney, Blackburn, Crawford, and Warren for Quintana and Duke would you take it.
I am a Cubs fan, but if I was either a White Sox fan or GM, I would hang up the phone and pick up one of the other lines because surely, a better offer exists somewhere else.
“HI, I’m offering a 19 year old, a question mark, a couple fringy players and some organizational depth for one of the best pitchers in the AL. Not interested? Sorry to waste your time.”
Table scraps…not good enough package for a top 5 starting pitcher.
Sale is a stud SP, still young and a club friendly contract. Cubs would have to offer atleast 3 top prospects plus a big leaguer or two (Scwarber, Baez, Contreras, or Almora).
Great trade for the Yankees. Traded an expiring contract for a whole bunch of long-term help. They can still re-sign Chapman in the offseason if they want.
With Teixara, Sabbathia, and Beltran free agents after this season, and A Rod after next, they’ll have enough $ off the books to sign everyone. And knowing the Yankees, they probably will.
Well there is the whole, other people still have an opportunity to sign him too. It’s not 2002 anymore, the Yankees can’t outbid everyone now. The Dodgers are losing Jansen and have more money than the Yanks. I could see the Giants popping on him as well. The Tigers owner wants a WS title before he dies as well and he is in his mid 90s, so I could see him okaying basically any contract..
You’re right, those other teams all do have the opportunity to sign Chapman in the offseason, but they would have had that opportunity even if the Yankees had kept him. Trading Chapman now doesn’t bar the Yankees from trying to sign him in the offseason.
Of course I agree with you now, but that’s not what you said. You said that they could get him if they wanted him. I was just pointing out, that they might not get him just because they want him. Quite frankly with Betances and Miller, there are many other places on the Yankees that need fixing over improving your 7th inning guy. Which is basically all getting Chapman would do., because the 8th inning guy and 9th inning guy would only improve very slightly if at all.
Well if they do want him they can offer him as much money as they want. I’m sure they will offer Chapman as much as they feel he’s worth and I’m sure Chapman is open to re-signing with the Yankees. Sure, someone else might value Chapman more than the Yankees and overpay, but they would have done that even if the Yankees hadn’t traded him.
The worst think that can happen is the Cubs don’t win the World Series and Chapman resigns with the Yankees. That would mean the cubs traded Castro, Torres, McKinney, and Crawford for nothing.
I’m torn. Very, very torn. Chapman no doubt makes us a better team. But he’s a rental, and Torres is a pretty awesome prospect.
Worried about the baggage with him? You think he is tainted?
Rebuilding since ’08 (1908), may be nearing an end now.
But they need to win it all to make it worth it. He is gone after 2+ months and the playoffs.
Fantastic move for Chicago. Prospects meeting expectations are about 50-50. Chapman helps win this year in a way none of prospects could have. Fantastic move for New York. You end up with 4 better players than you traded away and added much needed youth and talent to a system. Despite their historically accurate high payrolls and big free agent deals, the majority of the 27 championships have come with a Yankee-developed core surrounded by those high priced acquisitions. It’s nice to see that core continue to take shape in the minors. Coming from a Braves fan, It’s great to see the Yankees humbled over the past few years, but baseball is just better when the Yankees are good.
Agreed. The only losers in this situation seem to be the Reds. Not only did they get much less for Chapman than they should have gotten, but he also got traded to a division rival. Now they have to see Chapman come into their stadium wearing a Cubs uniform.
I do disagree 100% with your last sentence though. I grew up in the late 80s/early 90s when the Yanks were pretty much the worst team in the league. Baseball was still fun then.
It’s not like any team being bad takes away the joy of the game (trust me as I am a Braves fan lol) Baseball is just good when the large fan base teams are good because when the Yankees are good, it attracts so many more fans to the sport itself than say if the Tampa Bay Rays were good. As a sport, we need all the popularity we can get at this current time and that begins with the marketability of some athletes the way guys like Griffey, A-Rod, Jeter, Bonds, etc. we’re all extremely marketable and attracted so many new fans to the game. In this age with so much young talent breaking in, it’s a golden opportunity for baseball to attract younger fans to the games.
Yes, but that popularity doesn’t have to come from just the Yankees and the Red Sox. That is what is killing the sport in general. The NFL surpassed baseball because all 32 of their teams basically have an equal chance at winning. Team management is much more important in football. Yes in baseball small teams can win, but big market teams have many more chances. A team like the Twins or the Rays has a 4 year window maximum followed by at least a 6-8 year period of being bad. The Yankees are at a .510 winning pct. this season and everyone acts like the sky is falling. The Rockies have finished with a record better than .500 only 7 times out of their 24 years in history, only 3 of those times were better than .512, and one of those 3 seasons was strike shortened. Baseball would be much better if everyone had an equal chance at fielding competitive teams both long term and short term.
Have your owner pay more in player salaries & less directly into his pocket.
…and dont mess-up all those high draft picks you were handed.
Many teams do not have chances at top 10 or 15 draft picks
Well sure, let me just get him on the phone now.
That would be a great idea to start carrying out your CR hopes & dreams….
You know what? Good on the Cubs. And the Red Sox earlier this year. And the Blue Jays in 2015. Yeah they gave up a lot, but so what.
Other teams with their eye on a championship this season, take note (looking at you, Indians and Dodgers). Take a friggin’ risk and go for it, instead of holding onto your prospects like holy relics.
One thing to keep in mind with the Chapman acquisition,it also keeps him away from potential playoff rivals such as the Nats and Dodgers in the NL and Boston and Indians in the AL. Much rather have him on my team than pitching against me in the playoffs.
I am not a cub or Yankee fan so my opinion is not biased, I just can’t believe some of the comments here. The smart cub fan knows they just got beat on the trade, the people that are rationalizing are saying they have no place to play. I have two things to say to you number 1 it’s called depth, how many times in a year do we see players get hurt. Number 2, if these 4 players are expendable as you all say why not trade them for someone that’s going to play for you more than two months
Everyone’s opinion is biased. It is a complete misnomer that there is such a thing as an unbiased opinion. You can’t turn off all of your upbringing and the rest of your knowledge when making a decision about anything. If unbiased opinions were possible, we wouldn’t even need to have elections because we could just quantify all of the evidence and plainly see who the better candidate is. You can’t do that.
Rayray just stating the facts and as I have already stated, to say that the four prospects were blocked and never going to play is likie making justification for a bad trade. Fact 1 there is a thing called depth and fact 2 if they are truly never going to play,trade for someone that is going to play more than two months. Chapman will go to the highest bidder and that may change my opinion but if he leaves in two months it is a bad trade period. I would say that to any major league team also
The Cubs just made their team better.
A 100+ year championship drought is a bit obnoxious and disheartening; I would guess.
I give them credit for being bold when they actually have a legitimate chance here in 2016.
Crying and anguishing over ‘prospects’ instead of rallying around a historically-pathetic franchise with a new and fresh chance to actually get somewhere now is such a ‘laughable scenario’…
…but in their defense – they’ve really never ‘been there’ and just might not honestly ‘get-it’…
For those Cub fans that ‘get=it’ ….Congratulations & Good Luck !
(I will not be rooting for you, despite my admiration on your honest-to-goodness effort to win this year) .
Possibly because that two month player is exactly the player you need. Mike Trout is a better player than Chapman, but even if you could have gotten him for that same package. I’d rather have Chapman pitching the 9th, than Trout.
4 Players for ~40 innings (plus playoffs).
10 innings of performance per player given up, if you look at it that way.
Hector Rondon has an 81% save percentage in 2016. Chapman has a 95% save percentage. Would you rather have a 5% chance of blowing a close playoff game or a 19% chance? He will probably save 3-4 games from now until the end of the WS that Rondon theoretically would have blown. If 1 or 2 of those games are in a playoff series, that is the difference between winning and losing. Obviously those are small samples, but Chapman is still a much better closer than Rondon.
Besides Mariano Rivera only pitched 1283 innings in his entire career. As an example, Javier Vazquez pitched over 2800 innings. Was Vazquez 2.5 times greater than Rivera?
Unless Epstein is a total idiot, and everything I have seen from him indicates the opposite, giving up that much for Chapman without knowing you can sign him long-term makes zero sense.
The added value that an elite closer carries at the trade deadline and pressure to bring a championship to the city of Chicago is the reason why he did it.
This trade doesn’t make Chapman any more likely to sign with the Cubs long term.
After watching David Robertson this past week, I would’ve pulled the trigger on this deal, for sure. They have plenty of future infielders, and outfielders. And the also had no need for Vogelbach.
And as far as this trade, I would definitely say that this is an overpay. But it’s clear that now is the time for the Cubs and they’re still looking pretty good for the future even without Gleyber Torres.
As a fan of the Pirates organization this is another example of the big market teams flexing their extensive wallets over the small market teams.
The Cubs shell out big bucks in the international market for Torres then shell out a massive pay for a rental player, perhaps the best rental available. No worries for them they can buy more players next year.
The Pirate organization is holding on to their wallets and prospects and playing the “Keep it competitive every year” game – but selling out to bring in a ringer like Chapman would set the team back 5 years.
Don’t get me wrong I’m a little jealous to see Theo and his gang go all in this year. I wouldn’t accept my team trading our 1 and 4 prospects for Chapman though… so I guess my team is giving me what I want another good year with a ‘chance’.
One thing is for sure the Yank’s fleeced them for all they could get, Cashman has got to be grinning bigtime.
The fact that the Cubs perceivably gave up more than expected should be a credit to Cashman and the Yankees during negotiations. It should also serve as a barometer into just how desirable Chapman was despite the fact that his contract was expiring. Can we please remove Warren and his 6 ERA and Rashad Crawford (who as a Cub fan I’ve never heard of until today) from the equation for a moment? This trade is Torres and McKinney for Chapman. And for a lhp that throw 105 mph with so many teams competing for his services, any team would have “overpaid” if that’s the appropriate word. On another note, I’m surprised there’s been no mention of Cincinnati in all this and how bad of a decision it was at the time to trade Chapman in the first place when his value was down.