The Giants’ season ended in a devastating defeat that saw a gem from Matt Moore — two runs (one earned) on two hits and two walks with 10 strikeouts across eight innings — go to waste as five relievers turned a three-run lead into a one-run deficit in the ninth inning of Game 4 of the NLDS vs. the Cubs. In the wake of that stunning defeat, executive vice president of baseball operations Brian Sabean and general manager Bobby Evans spoke to the San Francisco media on Thursday, and Alex Pavlovic of CSN Bay Area has published three different stories on the media session. (Giants fans would do well to read each in its entirety, as they contain far more quotes and context than this overview.)
Sabean and Evans emphasized that the Giants will pursue late-inning relief help this winter. A top-flight closer appears high on the wishlist for the longtime San Francisco baseball ops duo, though as Pavlovic notes, there won’t be a complete overhaul of the bullpen. The Giants are encouraged by the overall output of Derek Law, Hunter Strickland, Josh Osich, Steven Okert and Will Smith, and Evans confirmed that right-hander George Kontos will be tendered a contract as well. However, as Evans explained, the Giants believe there’s a benefit to all members of the relief corps if there’s no question as to who will be closing out games.
“The bullpen performs at a much higher level when you know who your ninth-inning guy is,” said the GM. “It puts everybody at ease and helps [manager Bruce Bochy] as he defines roles. With ambiguity, it creates tension and unknowns that can add to or detract from performance and ultimately lead to struggles.” As for how he’ll go about acquiring a closer, Evans implied a no-stone-left-unturned approach, stating that he’ll be active in free agency, trades and even evaluating his internal options.
The top three relievers in free agency are Aroldis Chapman, Kenley Jansen and Mark Melancon. Pavlovic rightly notes that the Giants would need to make overwhelming offers to win a bidding war with teams like the Cubs, Yankees and division-rival Dodgers for the services of Jansen or Chapman, opining that Melancon is the likeliest target. That could be especially true when considering the fact that Evans has previously been candid about his pursuit of a Melancon trade in July. Of the team’s trade efforts, Sabean indicated that the Giants lacked the prospect firepower to play for top names like Chapman and Andrew Miller at this year’s deadline, ultimately concluding: “In every case that a closer didn’t come to the Giants, they went elsewhere for probably a lot more than we could have been involved in.”
Shifting to the other side of the pitching staff, Evans said that Matt Cain will have every opportunity to make the team’s starting rotation next year, but the former ace will be competing with young left-hander Ty Blach to win the fifth rotation spot behind Madison Bumgarner, Johnny Cueto, Jeff Samardzija and Moore. Pavlovic wonders if Cain and his four-pitch mix could transition to the bullpen in a similar manner to Joe Blanton. (If that shift in roles is indeed possible, then perhaps Cain could eventually emerge as a late-inning option.)
There’s little doubt, of course, as to who will be calling the games for the majority of the pitchers discussed thus far. Buster Posey remains one of baseball’s premier backstops, but he did fade down the stretch, in part due to some nerve irritation in his right thumb. The former NL MVP won’t require surgery — no member of the roster is in line to go under the knife following the season, in fact — and he isn’t likely to see a marked decrease in terms of time behind the plate next season, either. Some have wondered if catching a career-high 122 games contributed to Posey’s second-half decline, but Evans said there’s no thought to giving Posey more time at first base. “We’re always monitoring his health,” said Evans. “We’re still confident that (catcher) is the best spot for him.”
A full season of productivity out of Posey would certainly aid the Giants in returning to playoff baseball next season, and while many fans feel that the addition of Christian Arroyo to the big league roster would do the same, Evans’ expectation is that Arroyo will begin next year in the minors. The 21-year-old, believed by many to be the team’s third baseman of the future, has yet to play above the Double-A level and slashed only .274/.316/.373 in 119 games there this season. With Arroyo likely headed for the minors, Eduardo Nunez and postseason hero Conor Gillaspie “are locks” to make the roster, writes Pavlovic.
Looking to the coaching staff, the Giants made the decisions to part ways with first base coach Bill Hayes and third base coach Roberto Kelly, with Evans explaining that the team needs to “grow our leadership in terms of how we approach our base running and our overall efforts first-to-third, second-to-home.” Furthermore, the GM said that bench coach Ron Wotus has been contacted by another club, though Pavlovic notes that it’s not clear which team, nor is it clear whether Wotus will interview for one of the managerial vacancies with the division-rival D-backs or Rockies.
If I were Rick Hahn I’d be on the phone to try and swing a deal to send David Robertson to San Francisco. He’s about the same as Melancon and is signed for 2 more seasons.
Then again since Ken Williams can’t keep his hands out Evans will get the Sox to eat Robertson’s money and they’ll only receive Matt Cain and his full contract in return.
Giving Robertson $12.5M AAV and probably 1-2 very good youngsters
OR
Melancon at $12-14M and keep all the players.
I take the second option every time.
There is no way that Robertson will cost anything of consequence if SF takes on all of his salary.
But Melancon could also sogn with anotjer team, what of the Giants moss out on him, Jansen and Chapman?
Really? The White Sox should trade Robertson to the Giants? For what? How does that help the Sox. There’s nothing worse than a non-thinking, homer fan.
If your teams not good, why do you need a good closer? They can start the rebuild, or else trade him for young talent to fill more important holes
I completely agree. Start tearing it down now. If anything that money could buy Fowler or whatever else they decide is a centerfielder.
I think they missed their window to trade Robertson for anything beyond someone like Mac Williamson.
Would Ziegler fit and save them some money? I’d love to see him back in boston, only it looks like he wants to close. Maybe he would sign for 6-7m and 2y deal. Did everything asked last year well.
he was a great setup guy for AZ for a lot of years – if he doesn’t mind going back to that role zeigler + melancon or jansen would be perfect for the giants
Time to reload…. we need to get younger…..
That’s true, but you need Brian in there and not the Fraud, Bubby.
Why? Bobby has been outstanding. Trading for Smith and Moore, who are controllable and some of the younger players moved, getting a bargain on Cueto.
I’m excited to see what he does.
Booby had V/little to do with anything, their top baseball minds are/have been behind the scene. The only GM who can’t even do a press conference by himself, what does that tell you?
Maybe don’t voice your opinion anymore, Frozen. You’re clearly not very educated.
It tells me nothing because a GMs ability to construct a baseball team is not dependent on his ability to conduct a press conference by himself?
Sabaen’s problem has always been very reluctant to trade young prospects. He had the chance to pick up a closer around trade deadline but passed on it. If the giants want a great closer they will need to spend or offer up Arroyo for 1. My bet is they get a old closer on the cheap.
The Giants were in for Melancon, but the PIrates liked the Nats’ offer better. That pretty much doomed the 2016 Giants right there.
It tells me that he and Sabean likely work together. That it’s not just his show.
But as it’s been said, his ability to organize a press conference has little to do with the decision-making skills he possesses.
Adam Duvall was a young Giants prospect that he gave up for pitching, and as a team that needs to develop more hitters im not surprised that hes reluctant to trade. They will never give up Arroyo, maybe just some pitchers.
Big problem, 3 Rings
I don’t think younger is necessarily what you want in the bullpen – either a veteran and a younger guy or 2 guys in the middle of their career who can bring along the pen and take a leadership role is what is needed – not just a bunch of young unproven arms
Agreed. The Giants have some young, promising arms in the bullpen already. An “overhaul” isn’t really needed, just replace the departing free agents. Leadership, stability, and more defined roles will help immensely.
I think not having guys know distinct roles hurt them this year.
Part of that was with the volatility of Casilla, who whined to the media at any notion he would lose his closer role. That doesn’t help much, and it certainly flies in the face of what the Giants have built: a team where the role is greater than the player.
I think having guys like Law, Strickland, Okert, and Smith is a strong core. Get the first three some more experience in high leverage situations and good coaching, and they could have the makings of a solid bullpen.
The Giants could afford anyone but Melancon is a good deal for the money compared to shelling out big bucks for Chapman or Jansen
Completely agree. Why Cain vs. Blach is even a question blows my mind.
Ron Wotus, not Don. Just a heads up
Who is Don Wotus?
He supplies bb 94
i don’t know who don wotus is but as long as they don’t take his twin brother ron it shouldn’t affect the giants
Ron Wotus really deserves a shot a big league managerial job, but I’m selfishly grateful for every year he stays on with the Giants.
Didn’t the article on MLB.com say that Wade Davis was an option as well? Him or Melancon are fine for the 9th. But if we are seriously stupid we will give it to Cain.
And I don’t mind Parker or Williamson getting the gig in LF. Would prefer to have a proven commodity; but have to let the kids play!
I think Wade Davis is a great option. He is a lights out reliever.
Would be nice to pry Britton away from the Orioles but would cost us dearly I’m sure.
Yeah, who’s coming off Tommy John…and it the Giants couldn’t afford Melancon they can’t afford Britton.
Davis would not come cheap.
As a Brewers fan, it blows my mind that the Giants traded a highly touted prospect and their backup catcher to the Brewers for smith who clearly was never 100% at that time. It’s not like smith will be your closer in the future
Outstanding move Booby
Susac was not the backup catcher. He was in AAA behind Trevor Brown, whom the Giants like much more as a receiver/pitch-caller. Susac projected as a so-so catcher with power, somewhat like Salty. Whether Smith was 100% healthy at the time of the trade is irrelevant. The Giants like his stuff and he won’t be a FA until 2020. They weren’t going t pass up a chance to acquire a guy they like just because he wasn’t 100% at that point in time.
Susac consistently rated in the top 10 for pitch framing when he was Posey’s backup. Trevor Brown just out hit him. He’s a wonderful catcher and hope he gets a lot of playing time in MIL.
First of all Brown doesn’t hit nearly as well as Susac. Not sure how you figure he out-hit Susac. Brown is a purely defensive catcher, with the occasional hit being gravy. Susac has played in all of 75 games in the majors, with only 57 starts. That’s too small of a sample for stats like pitch-framing. I’ll go with the analysis, from direct observation, from former catchers Bruce Bochy, Eli Whiteside, and Steve Decker.
Susac did have a much higher trade value than Brown. The reason for the trade of Susac was the emergence of Brown. Posey is not moving out from behind the plate. Posey wants to be out there every game. Belt signed a extension so he is entrenched at 1B. Susac had no position but back up catcher so the Giants felt Brown is a good back up catcher so trade Susac now before his value goes down.
You also shouldn’t post “facts” that you haven’t verified. Maybe someone told you that “Susac consistently rated in the top 10 for pitch framing”, but that doesn’t make it true. I’ll stand by the small sample size that applies in Susac’s case, but he has been nowhere near top 10 in pitch framing in any one of his 3 partial seasons in the majors..
Pitch framing is a joke, do you actually think the umpires wait to see the ball caught before they determine ball/strike?
In spring training Brown his .293 and Susac hit .217 just to hit you with some basic stats. Trevor Brown outplayed him in Spring training and that is why he made the team over Susac. Plus Susac battled a wrist injury which may have cost him.
KNBR reported (I can’t find the report) in 2015 when it was Posey/Susac that the two players were considered in the top 10 for stealing strikes for a pitcher. However I just looked up the 2015 stats for Susac (Baseball Prospectus) and his framing stats do not seem to compare to Posey so I’m not sure what the report was claiming.
However if you compare Brown to Susac for pitch framing and CSAA, his numbers are in the negative, Susac’s are slightly positive.
What direct analysis do you have from Bochy, Whiteside and Decker that say Brown is a better catcher than Susac? I can’t seem to find anything on the public record stating that
@Frozen Rope – The answer is YES… it’s measured in a number of stats (CSAA being one) and it makes a lot of difference. It shouldn’t but it does. How a catcher receives a ball can make a difference on whether it’s called a strike or not.
baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=28193
Anything can be measured, have you been watching Grandal (another great pitch framer), he boxes 20 pitches a game, worthless stat! Again, no ML umpire watches the ball being caught and then determines ball/strike
“In spring training Brown hi(t) .293 and Susac hit .217 just to hit you with some basic stats.”
Right, the Giants are that dumb that they ignore the larger samples for 6 week’s worth of stats. Neither one has that many ABs in MLB to make any stats worthwhile. But both had 3 seasons at AAA. Brown hit for a slightly higher BA, .273 to .261, but Susac had a big edge in power. His SLG was .433 and his OPS was .782. Compare that to Brown’s SLG of .346 and OPS of .678.
Once again pitch framing is based on a cumulative number so small samples are pretty useless.
Obviously Bochy isn’t going to say it for the record that Brown was a better catcher, but I found this from SF Gate:
“Manager Bruce Bochy said he was impressed with how the 24-year-old backup helped right-hander Albert Suarez work through five inconsistent innings in Thursday’s win at Pittsburgh. In back-to-back innings Friday, Brown threw out baserunners.”
And from Baggerly:
“The injury to Andrew Susac s wrist isn t what opened the door for Brown to make the club. Brown forced his own way onto the team.
That s the vibe I had gotten towards the end of the spring. Bruce Bochy confirmed it Tuesday night. Even if Susac had been 100 percent healthy, Brown was on his way to winning the competition.
This kid earned this spot on the club. He s here to handle the staff, and the hitting is the icing on the cake.”
This from CSN:
“Guys like throwing to him,” Bochy said. “Veterans have come up to me and said this kid does a great job and follows the game plan. This (month) is pretty much the best thing that could have happened to Trevor Brown. It’s not an easy staff to catch with different styles, and he’s adapted to all of them very well.”
I don’t recall Bochy praising Susac defensively like he has Brown.
Smith is controllable thru 2020 and is one of the better non-closing lefties in the game. It’s not like they gave that up for a rental. Smith is going to be a key part of the Giants pen for at least 4 more seasons.
Susac was a tough guy to give up, but as others have suggested, his value was waning every moment he wasn’t catching. Glad to see him go somewhere he can compete for a starting job.
Bickford brings forth mixed reviews. Guys like Keith Law don’t like him and some, like Eric Longenhagen over at FG are torn on whether we’ve seen his best before he hits AA ball. I’m sure he still has upside, but it’s not as if we’re talking about a consensus “can’t miss” prospect in Bickford. A lot of scouts have seemed to sour on him already.
I’m 100% okay with what the Giants gave up for Smith. I’m not okay with them using him as a glorified LOOGY. I guess I’ll have to see how they use him going forward.
Giants need to cut Bam Bam. Every year we see weak offense and other teams hitting better at AT
For some reason the rest of my message didn’t come through.
Giants need to cut ties with Bam Bam. Every single year we see a team that has hitting issues and the buck stops with the hitting coach.
*Belt finally made adjustments after he was benched (for Brett PIll) and the Giants said they had been trying to get him to make those changes for 2 YEARS! In fact I would like to see Belt come up on the bat (like Pence/Bonds) which I think would help him hit against the shift and catch up to that ball inside he consistenly swings at and misses
*Last year Blanco (who had a bad year this year) hit well for average suddenly after Aoki gave him some tips
*Hunter Pence regularly goes into slumps because his front shoulder flies open too early and he’s trying to yank the ball, he’s at his best when he’s driving the ball the other way
This comes down to Bam Bam, if he cannot get players to listen to him, then why is he there?
Roberto Kelly does not surprise me at all. Giants baserunning going from 1st to 3rd this year was bad, I mean little league bad. Pagan and Pence (two of my favorite players) would constantly not pickup Kelly when rounding second and third. All too often they were looking over their shoulders at the ball when running instead of the third base coach. Have you tried running looking behind you? It slows you the hell down and how many times do you see a player thrown out by inches? He’s there for a freaking reason.
Flannery had the respect of players and made sure players like Pagan looked at him instead of at the ball. Unless the ball is in front of you, you pickup the coach and do what he freaking tells you to do.
Agree Flannery was superior, but base runners only pick up the coach on a ball hit behind them , down the 1B line. Pagan didn’t run because he is brittle and does not want to get hurt, not the same talent he once was
Yeah I wasn’t talking about Pagan running up 1st. I was talking about how Pagan looks behind him when he’s rounding second (like a hit to the right side) rather than just picking up the 3B coach. I’ve also seen him do it when rounding 3B too but quite often when he’s baserunning the third base coach becomes redundant on some plays.
I understood, the coaches are there when needed, base runners are taught to make their own decisions unless they loose site of the ball. This is not Williamsport, and you obviously never got on base
I did okay getting on base, and I played and at a decent level. I had seriously hard assed coaches who made sure we played the right way, so if we were looking behind us when running towards 3B and not the coach, we’d get reamed out!
Can you run faster when you’re looking behind you? I’ll answer for you, no you can’t. So when the ball is in front of you, you make the decision, but when the ball is behind you, you pick up the coach.
BTW it’s “lose” not “loose”.
I agree about Bam Bam, the Giants offense has gotten weaker over the last 6 years and i grew up a Barry Bonds fan so I’d love to see him return. Lol. I read that he did well in Miami but he wasn’t offered another contract because Don Mattingly didn’t like him. No surprise there, former Dodger manager, doesn’t deal well with big ego people.
Bam Bam, BS, DT all former Yankees, you have found your mole in the dugout
What do you mean?
I’ve often thought the Giants were one of the weaker baserunning teams in baseball – even going back to the Flannery years. And it isn’t just about speed. Without a doubt getting two bases on a single and three bases on a double is a must when you lack power. Its really difficult to compete without power AND good baserunning. I wonder if there is some stats source where you can find out the percentage of times a team only got one base on a single. The Giants must have led the league.
I sit in the upper deck behind home plate. I can see the break they get on hits. The Giants – almost to a man – are very poor at picking up the ball off the bat. Sure, sometimes on line drives you have to hold up to see if its going to get caught, but the Giants do that on balls that had no chance of getting caught – thus they get only one base. I don’t know if its about watching film or putting in the extra time in the offseason or spring training, but they must improve in that area.
@Sabean Wannabe – That’s a really interesting take. I was listening to the Royals GM and he said (I’m paraphrasing) “Because he have such a big park, we don’t get that excited about a player with power, we get excited by a player than can hit the ball in the gaps and run”.
SF needs to do that too. They do need to find those extra bases as you say. Also I don’t think Bochy is big on stealing. Giants ranked 14th for steals (79). Milwaukee stole twice the number of bases. I know we don’t have speed which is part of the problem.
You can find that stat at Baseball Reference. For the Giants their XBT (extra base taken) is 39%, league average is 40% so they are below average in that respect.
Thanks!
Yeah, I just found out about the stats on BB Reference yesterday. Just like hitting stats, you need to adjust for the park. Even Bochy could score from first on a ball hit to triples alley. Another possible factor (which is difficult to quantify) is that maybe the lack of power means teams play more shallow thus making it difficult to take two bases on singles. Anyway, I still think reading the ball/anticipating are big parts of the equation and my visual observation tells me the Giants can improve in this area.
Bonds thinks because he’s been a great baseball player, it’s easy to be a coach. It isn’t. No manager is going to be able to get along with him, as he wants to teach based on what he was able to do in his career. That has nothing to do with the players that you’re working with on a daily basis. You will find that a lot of coaches and managers that weren’t that great as baseball players themselves, are the ones that make fine coaches and managers. Just because someone’s a great dancer, doesn’t make them a great teacher in the art of dance. Bonds doesn’t get this. And plenty need to teach in the minor leagues before moving onto the major leagues, such as Matt Williams. He wasn’t quite ready yet for the Bigs and managing there, but he will be back. Bonds, however, will continue having issues.
Giants outfield and bullpen is trash
Need to overhaul this departments
A decent outfielders must have power, speed an average of 260 and two of the three outfield must have good defense
Giants have zero. Maybe Hunter Pence is average in defense and Williamson has good power