The decision the Red Sox made in 2003 to hire Terry Francona over Joe Maddon as their manager has worked out for all parties, writes Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald. The Red Sox won two World Series and 574 regular-season games under Francona from 2004-11, while Maddon ended up with the Rays a couple years later and established himself as one of baseball’s top managers. Now, after several seasons of squaring off as AL East rivals, Francona (Indians) and Maddon (Cubs) will meet in this year’s World Series. On losing out to Francona for the Boston job, Maddon told Silverman, “I thought Tito was more prepared for that moment than I was at that time and I’ll stand by that. I got the right job at the right time with Tampa Bay. Tito was the right guy back then. But the experience for me was fantastic moving forward.” Theo Epstein, the executive who picked Francona in Boston, also hired Maddon in Chicago. Epstein explained his call to pass on Maddon 13 years ago, telling Silverman, “In the end, we loved him but we thought taking over a veteran team in a big market, there would have been some risk involved because he’s so unique. I think it worked out best for both sides. He could go to Tampa, which was really like a petri dish at that time, he could try things out, grow into it with young players and obviously blossom.”
More from around the majors:
- Given that the Dodgers were still in the postseason Saturday, left-hander Rich Hill was unwilling to discuss free agency or a potential return to Boston, but the late bloomer did give credit to the Red Sox for his shocking breakout. “Whether it was with (director of pitching analysis and development) Brian Bannister or (pitching coach) Carl Willis. Just the combination of those two guys,” he told Evan Drellich of the Boston Herald. “And also, just the overall opportunity that I did get there, I’ll never forget. Definitely translated over and started something for me that gave me a blueprint on moving forward.” Hill, of course, had a stint in the independent Atlantic League last summer. He then joined the Red Sox, turned in four excellent starts in September and inked a $6MM deal with Oakland last offseason. After continuing to post ace-like numbers with the Athletics and Dodgers this season, the 36-year-old journeyman will earn a substantial raise as the top starter available on the upcoming market.
- Speaking of the Athletics’ pitching staff, general manager David Forst told Joe Stiglich of CSNBayArea.com that the team will pursue starters during the offseason. Acquiring more rotation candidates would add to a group that currently includes Sonny Gray, Sean Manaea, Kendall Graveman, Jharel Cotton, Andrew Triggs, Daniel Mengden and Arizona Fall League standout Frankie Montas. The leader of the staff, Gray, had a nightmarish 2016, but Forst expects him to bounce back. “Am I going to get the Cy Young (caliber pitcher) from Day 1? I don’t know,” Forst said. “But I think there’s a confidence that this was an aberration, this whole year, more than anything else.”
- The Tigers are on a mission to shed payroll and get younger, but it shouldn’t come at the expense of right-hander Justin Verlander or second baseman Ian Kinsler, opines Anthony Fenech of the Detroit Free Press. While the Tigers don’t aim to rebuild, Fenech argues that they won’t be able to contend without those two. Dealing the soon-to-be 34-year-old Verlander would remove a Cy Young contender from Detroit’s rotation, though it would simultaneously free the team of some or all of an $84MM commitment through 2019. Like Verlander, Kinsler also had a stellar 2016 campaign, but the 34-year-old is due a far more palatable $21MM over the next two seasons.
Miguel Cabrera should get traded. It won’t happen, but it should.
Arguably the best hitter in baseball? No way man
The man has a point. If the Tigers want to shed payroll and get younger/better in the process, he’s the obvious choice to take care of both needs. It would take a huge package of talent to pry him away so either way they win.
WHY?
Couldn’t give that contract away. It’s as non movable as is the 5y left on the Pujols deal
Kinsler has been undersold for an entire career on the flip side. Short sighted to both Cano and pedroia, while putting up equal numbers with a glove better than that of cano, or at least steadier all these seasons. Bad move to move him.
Better non move would have been to not give in and sign ANY upton to start with and move out the one they have with as little of the salary eaten, then try to extend the solid player they DO have in JD
Wow, after all these years there is still a person in the Kinsler is as good as Cano camp.
Kinsler is very good, but not equal to Cano with the bat. Kinsler became a regular in 2006, and from 2006, with both players quite durable, Kinsler has an oWAR of 41,7, Cano 56.4.
More to the game than pure offense, if that’s all it is? Then it’s only Cano, or it was. kinsler has and had in the past the solid glove, he and Pedroia.
I was mentioning Kinsler being the equal all the way around and that includes defense. cano’s got that ‘golden arm” where he can throw bullet’s from any direction for sure, but the solid and steady glove between the 2 has always been kinsler.
Your post seem to say equal numbers to Cano with better glove. I’d rate them Cano, then Kinsler,/Pedroia with bat, Pedroia/Kinsler, then Cano with glove. You can’t go wrong with any of the three–depends on what you value more–but all are immensely valuable.
Kinsler is underrated for sure. And he does have a better glove than Cano, but it’s not enough to cancel out Cano’s offensive production. I’m not sure if that’s what you were trying to say or not, but it read like that.
Pedroia vs. Cano vs. Kinsler (WAR per 650 PA)
Since 2013: 5.5 WAR – 6.2 WAR – 6.0 WAR
Since 2010: 6.0 WAR – 6.9 WAR – 5.6 WAR
Since 2006: 5.8 WAR – 6.0 WAR – 5.5 WAR
So I don’t think there’s much of an argument that even with a weaker glove, Cano is the most valuable overall among the three.
Both him and Kinsler are more durable than Pedroia, while Kinsler is definitely the most consistent among them.
But again, if you’re arguing overall value, Cano is and has been the best among them.
Cabrera is in a much better position than Pujols, the former is still only 33 and hasn’t shown signs of significant decline yet. You don’t move your star franchise player and future HOF in the position the Tigers were in, staying in the race till the very end and just missing out.
I don’t see Cabrera getting moved. Age and contract dollars are just not in the Tiger’s favor. Plus I believe he has a full NTC and I don’t see why he would waive it to go a different team when the Tigers are still able to contend.
Does anybody else out there feel like Rich Hill is going to be a big contact/big bust kinda guy, more sooner than later?
I feel like he can’t keep this up at all at the rate he’s doing it. But at this point anything is possible. I’m leaning towards the big bust side.
The A’s were very careful with him and shut him down or watched his innings. If he signs a big contract will his new team do the same? Most likely not and a injury will happen again.
Yes
At least it will be a 3/45 bust as opposed to a Pujols or Choo bust
Guys he has one very very nasty curve ball that he does throw for strikes… so his arm might fall off first… but that’s where he turned his career around.. throwing it more!
I really can’t see Tigers moving any of their big contracts. Maybe I’m wrong. What is the status of JDM? Isn’t he ready for a raise?
He is, but the Tigers probably don’t want to pay another guy $20 million a year.
So pleased to see Tito back in the Series. Best of luck to both the Cubs and Indians, but here’s hoping Tito gets his third ring.
We shouldn’t be talking about who the Tigers shouldn’t move. That’s what we did in Philly in 2012 We shouldn’t move Lee, we shouldn’t move Hamels, we shouldn’t move Ruiz– and while we got a ton back for Hamels- imagine the packages we would have been able to get for a guy like Lee had we not waited until he got hurt. The Tigers have tradeable pieces in Kinsler, Martinez, McCann, Castellanos and to some extent even Upton, Verlander and Miggy– all possibilities should at least be looked at.
Think about it this way:
The Tigers aren’t going to win it all in 2017 without spending a little bit more money; the Indians aren’t getting any worse and for the WC, the Orioles may get better, the Yankees will certainly be better, the Mariners will certainly be better and so will the Astros. If they go for it and come up short in 2017, Martinez will be leaving as a free agent, Castellanos and McCann will have one less season of team control and Verlander, Kinsler and Cabrera will all be another year further into their 30’s.
However, if they assess their roster and realize that they have enough pieces to have a very quick rebuild- sell off what they can, build around their young rotation and then supplement it with a couple of free agent signings off of a decent 2017-18 class, 2018 could be their year.
Even if they aren’t able to dump all of their salary commitments, they should do what they can.
I thought of something crazy, the phillies trade some of their young pitching talent for Miggy and somebody else in return?
The Tigers aren’t trying to move young players such as (Castellanos, McCan, Fulmer, Norris, Boyd, Rondon)
I disagree with your assessment. Yes, the Tigers could win it in 17 without a big raise in payroll. They were in it thru game 162, with major injuries to Zimmerman, Castellanos, and JD. Upton was useless thru August. Health can easily make them better. The bench provided nothing, but with the starters all set, it should make it easier to concentrate on improving it.
Cleveland will have Napoli and Santana going free agent, though Brantley should be back. I doubt all of their players will repeat their performances. I also don’t see Cleveland dominating the Tigers like they did this year. Against everyone else, the Tigers had the better record. It’s not time to throw in the towel.
Move Anibal, Pelfrey and Lowe in pure salary dumps for marginal prospects. Scour the AAA free agents for bench depth. Move Iglesias for a lefty catcher to back up McCann. Hope Jimenez is ready for the pen. Play Machado at SS. Find a speedy OF for the bench. It’s do-able.
Your right there is a sucker born every day, trouble is the big sucker in the bunch (yanks) have gotten wised up and not throwing money around as much
I’m in the minority saying that its time to trade Miguel Cabrera. You can’t win if the entire offensive scheme is about setting up and protecting one player as the Tigers deal with Miggy.
By all rights, Francona should still be in Boston. With the roster the Red Sox had this year, Tito would have won over 100 games and they would probably be in the WS.
Three cheers for Tito!
Agreed Tito a better stratagist then Ferrell but there pen was just aweful.. looked better down the stretch, but blew up way too many times this year… weak spot for sure
Hill is gonna be a cub next year!
Given that Hill turned down the Red Sox last year due to them not making a commitment in him as a starter, and the fact the Cubs rotation is too good do that as well given his injury history, it’s very unlikely.
Hill fits in the best with the Yankees and Dodgers. Teams with a lot of questionable rotation spots to work with who can afford to be super careful with Hill.. I seldom think Olney’s writing is anything aside from mediocre/substandard, but he had a point when he suggested Yankees get Hill.
Agreed don’t see him in Boston this year, and they could have had him cheap…
I don’t see the Cubs bringing him back. Rotation is an area of strength plus the Cubs have enough depth that they won’t need to spend that kind of money on what will likely amount to a number 3 starter.
Now before people get all upset with me calling him a number 3, let’s get real here. It’s Rich Hill. He’s going to get injured and he’s going to have some rough patches (wildness). Ace stuff but you aren’t going to get 200 innings/season out of him. Only teams that are desperate for rotation upgrades are the ones that will spend the cash to get him. Cubs aren’t one of those teams.
Mets could be one team that has enough to trade for Miggy. They could deal DeGrom, Dom Smith, and minor leaguer for Miggy. Mets have a top flight starter to deal for a bat, tigers need a younger arm that is ready to win now
How do you account for the dollars on Cabrera’s contract? Who covers that in your scenario? Wouldn’t Detroit have to agree to cover at least half in order to justify such a return? And I guess the other question is why would the Mets consider trading deGrom?
I like Cabrera, but trade an ace caliber pitcher in deGrom and what little farm system the Mets have for an expensive 34 year old that can decline significantly any moment? Lol, what a silly suggestion.
That’s like filling one hole just to create 3 others.
Of all the big names likely to moved in Detroit are Martinez and Kinsler the top two? Do you try to trade Kinsler for expiring contracts and one high ranked prospect or do you try to stock up on more high level pitching by dealing Martinez?
The easiest player to trade would be Iglesias. He didn’t provide much with the bat and Machado is solid defensively, with the potential to be just as mediocre with the bat.. The question becomes What will the Tigers want back in a trade? The starting 9 is set, as is the rotation. Bench and bullpen upgrades should hardly require trading a Major Bat., and trading one makes a hole in the lineup that needs to be filled.
If Miggy gets traded, it will be to Boston to fill shoes of Ortiz and be united with the GM that gave him that contract. The Red Sox have the prospects and dollars to pull it off. I wouldn’t worry too much about his production going South either. This guy is a animal with special gifts like Ortiz had. Pitch recognition and hand speed are above 99% of his peers; Can’t teach it!!!
Cabrera’s production is still no doubt elite, but him going to Red Sox only fills the void left by Ortiz. Red Sox should look to make themselves even better in 2017, not be the same as last year.
What they really should do is sign Encarnacion and then go after ace caliber pitchers like Sale or Quintana on a trade. They have all right tools right now to be a championship favorite next year. Big market team with gun MLB players and a top 10 farm system.
So they should use that to fill all their holes. If they can land a Sale or Quintana, it’d be worth to even lose proven MLB talent like Bradly Jr. in a package.
The #1 problem with that is miggy is right handed… donot see that when they can sign Encarcion for a lot less with just a loss of there June #1 draft pick which is going to be in the 20s anyway. Besides save your money 2018 free agency is loaded. My guess a platoon with Sam Travis and Travis Shaw at first and HanRam at DH
Avila can talk all he wants about the need to trade players and keep salary in line, Dombrowski started talking the same way and found himself out of work. Illich is not going to allow the trade off of Verlander or Miggy, he loves having big names on his team. JD is the one that will be moved providing the return is big, which it should be. I wouldn’t like to see Kinsler moved, but I think there’s a good chance he could be moved. The biggest issue is they have $30 million committed to Sanchez, Lowe and Pelfrey when they shouldn’t even be on the team. Maybe they can find deals by paying 1/2 of what’s owed to them if they’re lucky.
Good to hear some common sense, rather than the nonsense that people come up with just to come up with some copy. The team is still a contender and as long as that’s the case, they’re not going to trade anyone unless there’s someone with similar talent to fill the void. They have Moya to plug any hole opened from a trade of either JD or Upton, but who’s going to play 2B with Kinsler’s production gone? All the 2B or SS in their minors are all glove. It would be a move if they were rebuilding, but that’s not the case. Other than some stiffs at SP/RP, outfield is the only movement we’ll see this winter.
I think Collins is more likely the replacement if JD is moved. Moya is horrible defensively, which is why Aviles got OF starts last year, when Moya was on the team. They would probably need a RH bat to work as a platoon. Nice to hear someone thinking what I was.
I think COLLINS is mediocre at best. They need to get a left handed outfield via trade. Also a back up catcher for MCCANN. I have heard rumors of bringing Avila back? Another left-handed pitcher for the bullpen.
The Red Sox won 744 games from 2004-11… not 574.
if tigers trade miggy, verlander, or kinsler they should trade the rest. No point of trading one to get younger and get stuck in between a good draft pick and contending.
Miggy and Verlander have no trade clauses. If you think Avila saying they want to get younger supplants the desire to win now, you are mistaken. Illitch will not allow that. Expect payroll to not go up, rather than get slashed.. Don’t expect them to sign a Chapman. If they do trade a big name, it is much likelier to happen at the trade deadline if they have fallen out of the race. Plenty of time to restock then.
The Tigers are going to shed payroll in 2017 by trying to move players like Sanchez and Upton, not Miggy or JV. They are the cornerstones of the team and will enter the Hall of Fame with Tigers hats. Detroit and owner Mr.Illich are still planning to compete for a WS ring in 2017. Plus their TV contract is up in 2018 so a strong 2017 will produce a big payday for Mr.Illich. Detroit was 3rd(behind KC and St. Louis) in rating in 2016. Detroit is projected to shed $40MM in payroll in expiring contracts after ’17.
MLBTR reported that teams were asking about Upton last year so there could be interest this winter,especially after his very strong finish in 2016. If not, they could move him at the deadline if out of contention.
I expect them to try and move one of Pelfrey or Sanchez with Sanchez being first choice.
Both had similar years and Sanchez has a higher upside as a comeback player,but is owed twice as much in ’17 plus an option/buyout for 2018. Both the upside and ’18 option could be selling points. Sanchez does have 5/10 rights but if the $16MM ’18 option was made a guarantee, he could be moved.
Steve Adams had a good article discussing club options on starting Pitchers for 2017.. SP who had marginal 2016 numbers will be getting $11-13MM from options but could get more on the open market. Sanchez’s $16.8mm salary is fine if someone feels he will produce as a #3 SP. The SP market is sparse this winter and Pelfrey,with his $8mm salary, will be a good backup starter and bullpen help. They will most likely have all three kids (Fulmer, Boyd, and Norris) as part of the Opening Day rotation and will need some insurance SP.
I have heard rumors of JV being dealt to the ASTROS?