With the Blue Jays wrapping up a disappointing campaign, there have been a few tense stories involving the organization in recent days. The end of Josh Donaldson’s tenure (link), the potential end of John Gibbons’s tenure (link), and the club’s decision not to promote super-prospect Vladimir Guerrero Jr. have all grabbed headlines. Even president/CEO Mark Shapiro has been in the rumor mill to an extent. All things considered, it made for an interesting media session for Shapiro today.
Here are some highlights from that Q&A, as covered by Shi Davidi of Sportsnet.ca:
- Regarding Guerrero, as Davidi recently reported, the MLB Player’s Association shared some less-than-friendly thoughts on the matter. “The decision to not to [sic] bring him up is a business decision, not a baseball decision,” a spokesman told Davidi. “It’s bad for the Blue Jays, it’s bad for fans, it’s bad for players and it’s bad for the industry.” Shapiro, of course, had suggested otherwise in attempting to justify the club’s decision to send Guerrero to the Arizona Fall League. Now, Shapiro says in reference to a possible grievance action, he “welcome[s] that scrutiny.”
- Shapiro pushed back on questions about his future by expressing an ongoing desire to continue in his position. That’s not to say that there are any guarantees as to how things will shake out over the coming offseason, but the veteran exec says he is “as, if not more, excited to be here” than at the outset of his tenure. “This is where I want to be, this is where I am, this is what I’m focused on, and really don’t need to think of anything else,” said Shapiro, who rejected some reporting suggesting problems between him and ownership.
- Looking ahead more broadly, Shapiro seemingly acknowledged the factors that will likely lead to a payroll reduction without specifically agreeing that a slash was in mind. He said the club is “not going to be playing on Bryce Harper and Manny Machado” but will still “be active in free agency, where we have gaps and holes.” Though Shapiro says the goal is “to field a competitive team,” he also made clear that younger players will be given a chance to learn on the job. That’s “a double-edged sword,” he said, explaining: “playing young players leads to volatility. Volatility can be a great thing because there’s huge upside for those players, but it can also be a disappointing thing because there will be some young players that break your heart. The only way to find out about who a player is at the major-league level is to commit to that opportunity and to commit to those players. We’re embarking on that process now.”
- As with the Guerrero situation, whether or not one believes the rationale, the effect is clear. In both cases, the Jays will evidently be taking steps that indicate a greater focus on the future. With respect to Guerrero, that means preserving as much future control as possible. With respect to payroll, both in terms of allocating MLB opportunities and setting salary levels, the club is obviously willing to accept greater near-term uncertainty at the major-league level. While that may be disappointing to some fans, it’s also arguably a defensible approach from the perspective of optimizing resources over the long haul, particularly given the ascendance of the two traditional divisional powers in the AL East. While the Blue Jays have just under $55MM committed to 2019 payroll (before arb raises), well shy of the team’s $160MM Opening Day salaries in each of the past two seasons, it’s also not clear that the roster is set up for a true drive for contention even with significant investments. That outlook could change quite a bit based upon how things develop with the team’s prospects and younger MLB assets, but whether and how will depend upon the 2019 campaign.
If he’s taking heat now I can’t wait to see what excuse he makes for sending Vlad Jr. to AAA out of spring training.
Who cares what his excuse is it’s the right call, ask the nationals if they’d like an extra year of Bryce Harper
Sure, but I’d like to see what excuse he uses to justify it.
He’s 19 and questionable defensively at 3b. If they want him to be DH, sure call him up.
Is his defense worse than Miguel Andujar’s?
Why do you need to know his excuse? They’re making the right call.
/looks at 2012 NL East Standings
No, I think they’re fine with their decision.
And the 2018 al east standings is why they are fine with they’re decision
In many ways, it’s the Jays simply exercising their rights under the current agreement.
Who cares? The players and the fans. I want to see Vladdy play now. It is literally against the rules to hold him back for service time/control. Gleyber Torres isn’t getting called up because he needs to “work on his outfield defense”, which, I’m sure is growing by leaps and bounds while he is not actually playing in games.
Torres isn’t even an outfielder. Vlad is not a great third baseman defensively, so he could work on that. Why would the Jays call him up if they aren’t winning? Unnecessarily burning control time. Should the Jays go and sign a veteran to a big contract when they are not competing? No, that is unnecessarily burning money. Just because some random fan wants to watch him doesn’t mean they should hurt their franchise to accommodate that.
Actually, it is NOT against the rules to hold him back. Just ask any other club that has done this. This is operating within their rights and, frankly, it is the smart thing to do. Don’t blame the team, blame the collective bargaining agreement. And while the PA may think about filing a grievance on behalf of Vlad Jr. don’t expect the rules to change anytime soon and don’t expect too much to come out of it. When the PA negotiates the new collective bargaining agreement they may touch on this but it won’t be a focal point as their focus will be to benefit the MAJORITY of players and the reality is that this “service time scenario” only effects a small percentage of elite players.
Jr91….well said.
If he’s taking heat now I can’t wait to see what excuse he makes for sending Vlad Jr. to AAA out of sprin
Fix service time manipulation in the next CBA.
Totally agree Xab. Will never happen but would also love to see the next umpires CBA: 1. contain a tenure requirement of 10 years where until then MLB can send them to the minor and 2. have a license renewal like requirement every few years where they have to prove their competency. Make umps also earn their jobs.
Xabial, we will see a strike far before we see the owners agreeing to give the players more power. There is so much wrong with the current cba no way everything can be solved, so someone is still gonna lose aka the players. Sucks but that’s sports today.
The players have no leverage. They’re not gonna strike.
Maybe not over service time manipulation, but a strike is fairly likely next go around
It’s not. They don’t have leverage to get anything they want and a strike hurts them more than it helps.
There is no fix. They are working within the rules.
They aren’t working within the rules, they are working around them with garbage excuses. It is against the rules to hold a player back for service time, and the repeated cases where a player is called up precisely when a team gains an extra year of control is evidence of this.
Yes, and that’s playing by the rules. Blame the CBA, not the front office.
It’s a minor problem that’s oversold because it happens to stars. Who make most of the money in free agency.
Ok I agree to that if they were getting outrageous contracts
17.9 last year got a qo ? Gtfo
Maybe the MLBPA should worry about the guys having to get part time jobs during the offseason and not the guys who are looking like they’re in line for hundreds of millions of dollars…
There’s no reason whatsoever the MLBPA can’t do both things.
JD,
Agree but the union is more focused on the upper contracts believing they raise everyone else’s.
I understand that, but it’s still coming off pretty bad how they won’t stand up for minor leaguers, unless they’re going to end up making money. I don’t have a problem with them advocating guys like Guerrero or Jimenez to be called up. But at least advocate for the guys who have to do everything possible just to move up one minor league level and have trouble supporting themselves or a family.
Minor Leaguers aren’t part of the union
Exactly and neither is Guerrero. That’s kind of my point.
bingo
your point makes no sense. A union isn’t going to go to work for people not paying dues in their union. That’s how unions work lol.
So why are they making a big deal out of Guerrero? He’s not paying his dues.
Because not being promoted, means the MLBPA doesn’t get any money from Vlad.
They don’t care about how Minor Leaguers have to live live, only getting them up to the Majors.
Neither are amateur players, and they regularly negotiate away their rights and earning potential.
What actually happens is teams are far less willing to spend on mid tier players and instead just rely on cost controlled players to fill out rosters.
The minor league players are not in the union, so the union doesn’t care about their situation.
The whole service time and keeping extreme talent in the minors is a joke. Nationals brought Soto up, fans want to see Vlad, he should be exciting.
100% agree
There’s a difference though. Soto was supposed to help the Nats make the playoffs. The only thing bringing up Vlad would do to the Jays this year is losing him a year early.
Well had robles not been hurt, we wouldn’t have seen soto either. But you’re right though, nats thought they were gonna make a push for playoffs,and soto was raking.
The bottom line is, the best product should be on the field, period.
Remember when Trout first game up and they had to send him down? He got more experience in the minors and when he came back he turned it on. There is no guarantee. Some players look at it as a challenge. Others can not handle failure.
Yeah that’s why you bring him up. Can’t stay in the minors forever
I already used the Trout argument months ago. People didn’t understand it then. If Vlad is that good and the Jays are that confident in his longterm ability they can sign him to a longterm deal like the Angels did or like Philly did with Kingery.
Sign him until he’s 28 or 29.
Baseball needs to fix this nonsense about teams not bringing stud prospects up for financial reasons.
It’s damaging the sport.
Agreed. I don’t blame the teams at all, because it’s in their best interests to hold the players down. But it’s a terrible situation which the league set up.
The problem with the prospect obsession generated by Baseball America and Stickles et al (MLBTR?) is that it makes analysis somewhat incomplete. Vlad isn’t a “bad” fielder, he’s a HORRENDOUS fielder; completely devoid of any “quick-twitch”, and playing defense doesn’t seem to interest him. That limits his total value.
He’s going to make his money…the guy can hit, with exceptional bat to ball skills. No one doubts it. But watching him play night in and night out is going to discourage more Jays fans than you might think.
The AFL is a perfect assignment for him. Not to say the service time dance doesn’t happen; it does. But in this case it’s understandable. Maybe not defensible, but understandable.
I wouldn’t say he’s a bad defender. At worst he’s a little below average. But I haven’t seen anything out of him that I’d consider “horrendous”
Vlad cannot play defence well. He’ll pick a few at third but if he plays third now at the MLB, he’ll be quickly exposed and sent back down to learn.
He is a far below average fielder from a MLB level perspective and the Jays know it.
Easy fix-players brought up when rosters expand (sept.1) don’t count for years of service.Some hardly play. That way owners have no reason not to call up its best players
That would make zero sense
Good point, But the teams wouldn’t want this – because then it gives the player a chance to come up, shine, and expose the teams blatant disregard for the rules when he is sent down the following year until three weeks into the season.
It actually does count against service time
nobody said it didn’t.
Yeah Nats7 indeed did.
Re-read his post. He was trying to fix things by making September call ups not count. I’d like them to get rid of the call ups altogether. Why have different rules for the last month? No other sport does this. Same rules for all 162 games in my view. Also get rid of the play-in game unless the teams end tied.
sounds like a win win idea. Will make September more interesting for the fans. Gives players like Jimenez and Guerrero a much needed peek at major league pitching. This idea is so obvious it likely will go nowhere.
Easy fix – all years count as years of service time. They may not get that September call-up, but they’ll make opening day rosters, and the 7th year goes away. It’s supposed to be 6, 7 is a loophole that is against the rules.
If I was a Toronto fan, I would not want him up this year. I want him for an extra year in his prime. Not bringing him up and letting him stay in the minors for a month next year is in Toronto’s best interest.
This year was not in question, but next year especially after he kills spring training pitching will be when the debate begins, it’s safe to say that he will never be an elite defender, he may not ever be an adequate defender, but he is going to hit and thrive at any level at the plate. This situation will be a mess before it is said and done.
It will be a mess? I think all of this will be forgotten when Vlad is finally up for good and mashes.
If he reaches his ceiling, do you think we’ll still be talking about this?!?
I ain’t buying any of Shapiro’s koolaid. He needs to be fired now. I call on Ed Rogers and Alan Horn to replace him now. This has gone on long enough. Trade him to the mets if that works. The Mets derserve him. The Jays and Jay’s fans deserve an elite GM.
Yep. I’m sorry if I am in the minority, but Shapiro should not have talked about Harper and Machado. In fact, I have already said the Jays should go get Harper. They have the money. Signing him would still keep the payroll below $150 and gives them room to get 1 starting pitcher. Plus dealing Smoak and Travis would shave another $11’ish million.
Harper is turning 26 in October. If he were turning 29 I would understand. Harper is younger than Grichuk and is 1 day younger than Teoscar Hernandez. Want a youth movement to take you into contention in 2021? Have a Harper in his prime with an emerged Guerrero and you have two dynamic studs to build around.
Ship Shapiro to the Mets. His approach and mentality would fit with the misfits in Queens.
Jays are owned by Rogers and are never going to give Red Sox/Yankee money to players like Harper, Trout. Those are sucker salaries anyway. The Rays and A’s know how to do it
No kidding Rogers won’t do it.
Still the wrong move.
Sucker salaries for 30 year olds, yes. 26? Nope. You go in for mid-20’s position players like Harper.
When the Jays are prepared to win in 3-4 years there will not be available 26 year old superstars.
I’d like to see an even playing field with payrolls but the union only argues about not having a cap when there would also be a higher floor. Should also have an index rate based on geography cost of living including State taxes. That said, making the playoffs is one thing but other than KC, how many small market teams have won the WS recently?
It’s less that Vlad Jr. lacks the “instincts”; Pedroia doesn’t have them either. But we all know how Pedroia has adjusted to that.
I attend lots of EL games, and I assure the Jays’ fans that they will be less than happy with Jr.’s overall play. Yes, he might be the best young hitter I’ve ever seen; seriously, and I’m older than God; besides his K/BB-rate speaks to it.
But he looks to have absolutely no interest in improving his defense; zero; zippo. Interesting considering his parentage. He nonchalants everything in the field.
He’s gonna be great; and infuriate many many fans.
He doesn’t have to play D when he finally arrives.
Sure he will play at 3rd and maybe 1st. But once morales is gone, and he proves to be a liability on D, he becomes full time DH in 2020.
Drury can play 3rd. Gurriel at SS bichette at 2nd
I watched some games too. From my vantage point he’s improved at 3B when I saw him in August versus games in May I watched. However, I do agree he will struggle at the big league level. I’m curious if the Jays are having discussions over moving him to LF or 1B. I would certainly request he gets reps in the Arizona Fall League.
Before anyone argues that having Vlad work multiple positions would be a detriment, here’s a name: Miguel Cabrera. Started as a SS, played OF in the 2003 World Series and wound up playing corner INF the rest of his career. His bat did not suffer. Vlad can be that guy.
Now you see why Tribe fans were happy to see him leave.
So you would be happy if Shipiro wasted a year of control while rebuilding on a potential once in a generation talent?
Butt sore much?
There is no reason to waste a year of control on Vlad Jr. to bring him up in a lost season. The Jays are right to not bring him up
Guerrero is what 19? He is really bad at third base, but can hit. They need to move him back to the outfield.
The union cant really complain about the rules being played to – they agreed to them in the first place.
If anything, they should be looking at why they are consistently the worse Players Association in US sport.
The rules say you’re not allowed to do this. That’s why they can file a grievance. It’s just hard to prove. So they can complain.
MLBPA is a lot stronger than the NFLPA. It’s not even close.
MLBPA is the strongest union in sports by a hefty margin. The only reason the league got any wins was that the union overplayed its hand big time and analytics had completely debunked the model the union wanted with the ridiculous legacy contracts… that, and they couldn’t realistically fight most of the 00s steroid reforms.
19 years running MLB FOs and one division title. Bad for fans, really good at cutting financial corners for owners though.
The Jays are in a tough spot. The Sox are young; the Yanks are young AND have more coming. This is true this year; it’s going to be true for the next 2 years. Both the Jays and Rays have to look at a0 2021-2022 window.
Ya, the Rays have the better system, but the Jays have tons more money, and more Impact-type talent, at least on the higher levels. (On the lower levels, Rays are in pretty good shape; actually outstanding shape). It’ll take some creativity, but it can be done. And realistically, that’s when they should be aiming for.
Again, money plays into the equation. By the time those lower level prospects bubble up to Tampa, Snell will be too expensive to keep.
Oh, Orioles? Now THERE’S a challenge. Rotsa-ruck. At least the arrow is pointing in the right direction.
I don’t blame the Jays for not calling him up, why would you waste the service time in a waste of a year? Keep in mind too that Toronto’s other elite prospects are a year or two behind Vlad, so holding him back a bit longer ensures that group stays together longer when they all hit the bigs.
As for his position, keep in mind that both Bautista and Edwin started as 3rd basemen, and their eventual moves to less demanding positions coincided with an uptick in offense. After another solid year, and on reasonable deals for next season, why not look at dealing one of Smoakie or Morales, opening a door for Vlad next year, and when the other leaves either via in season trade or FA next year, have Telez take the other spot.
While I wolud like to see Vlad up now it is important to remember that if you call him up now he occupies a spot on the 40 man roster and he is not currently Rule 5 eligible. Once on the 40 man he can not come off without being exposed. WE have numerous prospects that are first time eligible and sending him to the Fall league saves one additional spot on the 40 man for a player that needs to be protected.
They need to reform the 0.000 to 6.000 journey to fix numerous issues for players AND teams before anyone has any right to whine about teams managing their prospects service time.