The votes are in, but it remains to be seen who has been elected to baseball’s Hall of Fame. Official results will be revealed this evening. In the meantime, those with interest are left to examine the ballot-counting efforts of Ryan Thibodaux (@NotMrTibbs). Here’s his updated spreadsheet for reference as to what is publicly known at this time, representing just over half of the total ballots. If you’re interested in what those data points predict, check out this post from Ryan Pollock of The Hardball Times.
While it’s hardly our core area of coverage, we thought we’d get in on the fun and allow our readers a chance to have a quick say as to who ought to be inducted this year. For these purposes, we’ll include only those players who have received more than five percent of the actual tally documented to this point. (That’s also the threshold those players will need to clear to stay on the ballot for another season.) That limits the field a bit, but you’ll have the opportunity to pick as many candidates as you like, whereas BBWAA members are limited to ten selections annually. (Fangraphs recently released the results of its own crowdsourced ballot, unsullied by the ensuing partial release of actual voting results and under conditions much more closely approximating the real thing.)
Here’s the poll, with response order randomized. This is just for fun, of course, but hopefully it’ll still be interesting to see where MLBTR readers land on the story of the day. (Link for app users.)
The poll is now closed. Only two players landed on a high-enough percentage of ballots to crack the 75% barrier:
| Mariano Rivera | 99.11% |
| Roy Halladay | 76.97% |
| Edgar Martinez | 70.85% |
| Mike Mussina | 55.66% |
| Barry Bonds | 55.07% |
| Roger Clemens | 55.05% |
| Curt Schilling | 43.32% |
| Fred McGriff | 39.45% |
| Larry Walker | 39.12% |
| Manny Ramirez | 27.25% |
| Todd Helton | 23.64% |
| Omar Vizquel | 21.62% |
| Jeff Kent | 21.17% |
| Billy Wagner | 20.80% |
| Andy Pettitte | 18.76% |
| Andruw Jones | 18.72% |
| Scott Rolen | 18.71% |
| Gary Sheffield | 18.46% |
| Sammy Sosa | 15.01% |
Submit Your HOF Ballot
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Mariano Rivera 13% (14,194)
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Roy Halladay 10% (11,023)
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Edgar Martinez 10% (10,147)
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Mike Mussina 8% (7,971)
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Barry Bonds 7% (7,887)
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Roger Clemens 7% (7,883)
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Curt Schilling 6% (6,204)
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Fred McGriff 5% (5,650)
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Larry Walker 5% (5,602)
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Manny Ramirez 4% (3,902)
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Todd Helton 3% (3,385)
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Omar Vizquel 3% (3,096)
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Jeff Kent 3% (3,032)
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Billy Wagner 3% (2,979)
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Andy Pettitte 3% (2,687)
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Andruw Jones 3% (2,681)
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Scott Rolen 3% (2,680)
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Gary Sheffield 2% (2,643)
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Sammy Sosa 2% (2,150)
Total votes: 105,796
I totally misread the title of this article haha. I totally thought it was about us readers making fun of the process.
That’s how I read it.
Same here!
probably explains Clemens and Bonds being so high. At least I hope most readers here won’t put suspected cheaters in.
Clemens and Bonds would’ve been in the Hall with or without peds. If everyone listened to your theory, Mike piazza wouldn’t be in the hall and neither should the commissioner of that era! Hypocrites! Piazza was suspected as a ped user!
The Veterans Committee let in three presumably cheating managers who managed roiding players. None of La Russa, Cox or Torre managed Bonds, tis true, but Cox had Sheff, Torre had Clemens and Pettitte and La Russa had Big Mac, Canseco (who surely hooked Pudge Rodriguez later) and god knows who else.
I used to want to blanketly cut out presumed roiders, too. But, it’s hypocritical to let the managers in but keep the players out.
I agree with you about Selig! How is his complicit behavior overlooked while Bonds and Clemens sit on the sidelines?
100% agree! Said perfectly
Well, not too many people suspected Pizza Man besides Murray Chass and his “bacne.”
Doesn’t matter. They cheated. Period! Are we really going to make excuses for these cheaters? Really?
Was the whole team on steroids. Specious argument, my friend.
Piazza was suspected, never proved to use steroids or whatever. Babe Ruth was suspected of a variety of things. Bonds and Clemens were cheaters.
Agreed. In my book Piazza and Bagwell to name two don’t get in. If/when Papi gets in, I’m done wasting time on the HOF. Sad but it lost its luster in my view. Bonds and Clemens still cheated the game and should never receive the sport’s biggest honor.
Ruth was never suspected of cheating. If anything, his partying should have hurt his production. Why would anyone vote for someone who you believe cheated to get a personal advantage that resulted in financial gain and prestige that can’t be measured? If you believe a player did it without an illegal advantage, then yes vote for the player.
Ruth was alleged to have taken animal testosterone.
Was that banned by the league while Ruth was playing?
An article I just checked showed he tried one injection that got him sick but was it illegal then? Here players hide what they do whereas he openly acknowledged it.
Yep. I was excited
Same
Same
Hehehehe…..Bazinga!
Same
Look at the numbers Fred McGriff should already be in the hall of fame. Great guy, never cheated. Dale Murphy should have been elected years ago too.
if dale murphy then also steve garvey.
No to both Murph and Garvey. Geez, are the ESPN “big Hall” guys gonna flock in next?
Yep and yep!
Both Garvey and Murphy belong in, in my view.
Also McGriff. Vet committees have so much to clean up. So many players equally if not more deserving than many recently added to the HOF. The way it is now, is it So important to a fan?
Yep
Glad it wasn’t just me!
#MakeFunOfTheProcess …. did somebody let Embiid in the house?
Yup I was expecting a criticism at some point lol
Mariano Rivera first UNANIMOUS HOF PLEASE
i heard someone make the point: he will not get 100%, not necessarily because of writers purposefully being clowns (though that will happen) , but because some will assume he is a lock and will want to reassign that vote to someone else they also deem worthy.
That’s the ONLY logical reason for leaving an obvious fit off the ballot. The fact other writers screwed up and didn’t make Mays a unanimous pick is no reason for the current crop to do so.
Sadly, there will be a huge push to make Jeter the first unanimous. They always try to tout him as an inner circle Mays/Ruth type player when really he’s Craig Biggio in pinstripes with worse defense.
I’m shocked at how good of a comp Biggio is for Jeter…
If Biggio played his entire career with the yanks he would be looked at like Jeter
And I’m a die hard lifelong Yankees fan
Two wrongs don’t make a right is what we are taught young in life. Many before Mariano should have been unanimous. That said, there are voters today saying since there are suspected PED users in the HOF, why not vote more in? Even if the toothpaste is out of the tube, you either clean it up or make a bigger mess. Vote Mariano in and keep suspected cheaters out!
Except Biggio was an excellent catcher, an excellent 2nd baseman AND a very good centerfielder with better defense.
Yeah how crazy is that ? He was a plus defender at 3 up the middle positions
If I’m not mistaken he wont a gold glove at 2 of the right?
Better not be Jeter. This might get hate but look it up, he’s probably not even a top 50 player to play the game. At least MO was the best at his position.
I like this idea. I believe if the league wants to revisit the PED issue at a later date, they may make a committee for the PED era. Really, there is no point right now in letting some in and some not when that would, indeed, make a larger mess.
@halosheavenjj and @freeclay
Yankee fandom aside, Biggio isn’t a good comp to Jeter,
A) Biggio and Jeter had similar amounts of PA (12,504 vs 12,602). Yet, Jeter had over 400 more hits than Biggio, Jeter is 6th all-time in hits behind all-time greats such as Rose, Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker. Biggio ranks 25th. Nearly the same amount of opportunity (PA) but Jeter has significantly more hits,
B) Historical significance. Jeter is the all-time hit leader among SS ahead of legendary Honus Wagner. Biggio is 3rd among 2B by about 250 hits.
C) Jeter appeared has those “intangibles”. He had a rep as being an all-time clutch hitter. He had 734 post-season appearances. He hit an outstanding .303/.374./.465 line w/ 20 hrs and a WS MVP to his claim.
Biggio had a 185 post-season PA and had an abysmal .234/.295/.278 slugging. That’s not a small sample size. Jeter had 4x as many post-season PA’s and yet produced far better results.
Jeter-8 years over 200 hits. Biggio had 1. Jeter had 4 years over .330 BA. Biggio came close once at ,325.
Jeter ranks 6th among all SS in WAR. 3 of them haven’t played in the last 100 years. Arod split his career between SS and 3B. Biggio on the other hand ranks 10th in WAR behind two guys NOT in the HOF (Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker and each played 500-800 fewer games than Biggio but have more WAR and were better defenders). Biggio reaching that 3,000 hit plateau helped him a lot. Otherwise, he likely wouldn’t be in the HOF.
Biggio was a great player and deserves to be in the HOF (3,000 hits along with his doubles and SB).. He’s not in Jeter’s upper echelon level of a HOF.
I dont think either should be considered in the upper echelon of HOF’ers. Both are deserving, but neither were nowhere near the best.
Jeter has a 72.7 career fWAR and 72.4 bWAR. He is a HoF no doubt, but nowhere near the upper echelon. If he wasn’t a Yankee he would probably not get in until the 2nd or 3rd ballot.
Nice comparison. Moving around the diamond doesn’t help Biggio either. When you think of Jeter, he’s in the middle of the field. Biggio didn’t really have a home like that.
He has well over 3000 hits & 5 rings. There’s no way he wouldn’t make 1st ballot.
I just explained to you how he’s 6th all-time in hits and the fact that he did it as a SS clearly indicates upper echelon. May not Ruth and Mays level but way ahead of Biggio and it’s not even close.
Aha Trim why you never cease to amaze how immature you are.
SS is a position where you don’t expect to see offense. In the last 75 years (since 1943) only 2 hitter have more hits than Jeter. Rose and Aaron. How can ANYONE claim that he’s not in the upper echelon of HOF? I’m not putting him ahead of Ruth, Mays, Gehrig, Cobb, Aaron but he is wayyyyy ahead of Biggio who may not haven been elected to the HOF if he had 100 fewer hits.
Ozzie Smith has a higher WAR than Jeter. Put that in your Yankees pipe and puff it.
Is “can’t go to his right” an intangible?
Wait … or was that “can’t go to his left”?
That is the first good comment you have posted JD….oh wait, you had to drop POS on a guy you voted for, I take it back hypocrite.
Agreed.
hits is a dumb stat becausr it tells you nothing about the type of hits. Jeter is a HOF player, but not nearly a inner circle player. He’s the most overrated player outside of Pete Rose.
BR favors Smith. Fangraphs favors Jeter. However, i never argued Jeter was a better defensive SS. I argued he was a much better player than Biggio who a couple of ppl alleged was a good comp. Stay focused son.
what does a hitter do again? to say a “hit” is dumb….i can’t even articulate hite stupid you are, especially when you’re talking about a guy with a career .300+ ba and .377 obp who have you 250-300 hrs from the SS position. you’re the idiot son. were talking about 6th most hits ever.
They used that excuse the last couple years. When Griffey didn’t get 100%, one of the voters explained that was why and he took a lot of abuse over it.
Griffey missed 100% by 2 votes. I wanna know who didnt vote for him but instead probably voted for some jackaninny like bonds. Who is a clear cut cheater. Doesn’t deserve a thing
If you didn’t have Griffey on your ballot, and do not vote for Mariano Rivera, you should lose your voting privilege!! You vote for the best!
Far and away the best player ever at his position. I think he’s one of the most deserving ever of 100%, if not the most deserving, though he surely won’t get it.
I agree he should be in and all should be in agreement on this but Mariano cannot be compared to Fingers, Suter, Gossage, etc. He perfected what Eckersley started but before that it’s really a different position with the same name. Also, as great as Mariano was, he had so many opportunities and was not perfect (see 2001 and 2004). Everyone knocks Hoffman but if their team’s were reversed, at most Rivera wins one title and at worst, Hoffman is the closer on three.
Those other guys weren’t perfect either
No ones perfect but you can NOT knock Rivera of all people. His career numbers in the post-season are ridiculous.
A 0.70 career ERA in 141 post-season IP with a 0.75 WHIP and 11.69 K/9? His 42 saves is likely to be a record that will never be broken.
Not meant as a knock. Just that the position has evolved and to me, having a Rookie Fingers, Goose Gossage or Bruce Suter to throw multiple innings would allow a team to go back to a ten or eleven pitcher staff. How good could they have been if they knew they were rarely going more than one inning? Also, my bringing up Hoffman was only to show sometimes luck on the team you’re with plays a big toll.
*Rollie.
CF?
No.
Yankee fan here so consider this opinion biased.
If Mariano Rivera does not receive 100% of the votes I’m not going to care.
When I explain to my grandson how great Mariano was as a player the fact that did/did not receive 100% of the vote is going to be unimportant to that discussion.
When he tells his grandkids (God willing) it will be about as unimportant as whether or not Babe Ruth got 100% of the votes.
So long as he gets in I’ll be happy.
For comparison, Babe Ruth only got 95%. Much better HOF’er than Mariano.
They both should’ve gotten 100%. No need to deny all-time greats just because a bunch of jerks didn’t give Ruth his props.
Why?
Why to a different post, not Babe Ruth.
Update: Mariano Rivera got 100% of every single vote.
First player ever to. Thanks for the 15 downvotes guys!
Finally, it’s over. No more thinking “if 11 people didn’t vote for Babe Ruth, then I won’t vote for this guy.”
Xab, who ever got a half a vote?
I AM BASEBALL1600 !!
Spartacus style Spartacus style
EDGAR!!
Are you only counting the first selection and not multiple selection. There must be something odd with the calculation percentage since you have Rivera as 13 per cent.
Perhaps what you are doing is calculating percentage as A divided by A + B +C + D instead of A divided by the number of people who voted.
The poll seems to be requiring a sum of 100%.
Fun exercise, but it doesn’t calculate in terms of percentage of voters but rather in terms of percentage of total votes, so how do we truly compare?
This poll isn’t making sense… only 13% of responders are saying Mariano Rivera are HoF worthy? Are people not understanding you can select more than one player on your ballot or is the poll not working right — I have to assume fans would think more highly of Rivera than 13% and also… his 13% leads all players on the poll — so essentially this poll is saying “no one” should be in the HoF from this class
I think it’s saying that he has 13% of the total votes, but because each submission has multiple votes, it’s off. Should go off submissions, instead goes off total votes. That’s my guess.
Scott Rolen, Edgar Martinez, Roy Halladay, Mike Mussina, Gary Sheffield, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Andruw Jones, Billy Wagner, Manny Ramirez, Todd Helton, Mariano Rivera, Barry Bonds, Larry Walker
This, minus Rolen, Pettitte, Jones, Helton.
Sheffield, wagner, and manny? Really?
so you have a problem with, arguably, the third best closer ever?
The only way Manny shouldn’t be in the HOF is if NONE of the known PED guys get in. Clearly, Manny was one of the greatest RH hitters ever..
Why isn’t Rolen a HOF’er? I assume you’d elect Edgar Martinez and not Rolen? Why? Look at their numbers. Their counting stats…hits, home runs, runs scored, extra base hits, etc., are all very close. Edgar’s slash line is better…by about 1.5 hits and 1 BB PER MONTH. That is their difference with the bat in their hands. And then there’s Rolen’s outstanding defense (top 3 at his position all-time) and base-running skills, neither of which Martinez contributed one iota.
I’m not knocking Martinez for being a DH (at least not here), but if he’s a HOF’er then Rolen, who was a better all-around player, certainly is. If you look at Fangraphs’ advanced stats and their overall calculations of a player’s value, they have Rolen 71+ points ahead of Martinez.
None of what you said is wrong. I’d counter with the 25 point edge in OPS+ and significant edge in every slash stat. Edgar was the better hitter.
That said, being an elite defensive third baseman in addition to being almost as good as Edgar Martinez with the bat has him well above the HoF line. I misremembered his career as being more injury-riddled than it was, so the big counting stat numbers surprised me. That, plus the arbitrary and useless ten player limit, is why I left him off.
“None of what you said is wrong. I’d counter with the 25 point edge in OPS+ and significant edge in every slash stat. Edgar was the better hitter.”
I agree that Edgar was the better hitter, but not by as much as you’d think. As I stated in my post, Edgar’s better slash line was the result of 1.5 more hits, and 1 more walk PER MONTH during his career. It’s not like Edgar was Ted Williams and Rolen was Omar Vizquel; their numbers were very close.
A real ballot you can only vote for 10 max
I’d love to see the process change….one vote, after 5 years…that’s it…..none of this “first ballot” krapolla……either the guy deserves it or doesn’t…..5 years is plenty of time…..that way, we can legitimately horsewhip those who don’t vote for Marianno, Ripken, etc……
Comparing counting stats over different eras is insane…the game changes….comparing guys who never played a meaningful game to those who did is insane….
There’s ALWAYS going to be a gray area; Musina is the perfect example. It’s easy to forget he did his stuff in the AL East…BUT you can make a case against him, I get that….
And that PED stuff is insane…who knows how many of the pitchers Bonds faced were also “juicing”….give Bob Mueller something else to do?….
One vote for each player, in or out…and that’s it….
Well you can say the same things about % stats too. There will never be a lifetime .340 lifetime hitter. Baseball is about milestones. We can lament about the Biggio’s who are only in because of the 3,000 hits but that club is still pretty exclusive.
Of course you are.
Bob, why reward cheaters? It just encourages more to cheat.
McGriff, Mussina, and Vizquel.
Perfect list of players who just BARELY don’t deserve enshrinement.
Thank you for your worthless response.
I was gonna say, MLBTR readers pretty much mock everything haha
I’m a bit more forgiving of the steroid era players and voted in Bonds and Clemens.
Helton, Walker, Wagner, Rivera, holiday, mussina, schilling, Martinez, vizquel, and jones would be my ballot.
Do not care about tweets or political ideology or whether an ex-baseball player is factually correct on anything or not. So I voted for Curt Schilling, the best big game pitcher of the last 25 years.
Some of the people with ballots are so petty. If one of Mussina or Schilling gets in the hall, the other should.
Exactly. Fake outrage from the media. Curt being a right winger bad, Tim Raines altering his playing style to avoid breaking vials of cocaine in his pocket A-OK! Flawed logic….
Raines wasn’t hurting anyone else…being a right wing a hole does
who cares about his politics? i hate trump but voting for him isn’t like supporting Hitler.
ABS – Being a right winger has nothing to do with what you did on the field. If politics prevents you from being a Hall of Fame then the BBWAA should never be allowed to vote ever again, period. They should be banned for be complicit in the steroid era anyway. Bunch of hypocrites.
That’s the spirit, ABS. Raines wasn’t hurting anybody.
Agree but if you have both on your staff and it’s game 7, who starts? Unless the plan is to close with Schilling, he has to start. As great a big game pitcher as there was.
^Schilling is the guy I want starting if my life was on the line. Before Beckett, before Morris, before Pedro, Before Randy. Before Chris Carpenter.
Rivera, halladay, kent, martinez, shilling, mussina.
Wow… no love for Sosa and his 609 HRs I guess?
I get it, I’m just a bit surprised to see him currently in last place in the voting.
Obvious PED suspicions, that is why.
Not to mention a ah hem, corked bat..
Makes no sense to consider some perceived cheaters differently.
How Omar Vizquel gets no love is AMAZING. The guy was Ozzie Smith with a bat and Ozzie Smith was a first ballot HOFer. Vizquel WAS the best SS of his generation.
Only difference is ozzie stole a ton of bases early in his career and some people view vizquel as a bit of a compiler
He was better than Ozzie in every way. – Ozzie stole more bases because he was part of that Herzog 80’s steal craze. He was overshadowed by Nomar, Tejada, Jeter and A-Rod because of their offense. I have never seen a better defensive SS in my 40+ years.
I agree, his defense was incredible
Omar gets no love
He was worse than Ozzie in every way. Since the Wiz had 15 more dWAR, you were watching one, or both, with your eyes closed.
Playing on turf was far easier to field than on grass.
Yeah because astro turf and 95 degree weather work well together. Not to mention the way the ball skips much faster on astro turf. You are the only one i’ve ever heard say that it’s easier to play on turf vs natural grass.
Clean bounces. Outfield turf is he’ll on a player’s legs but in the 70s and 80s infielders played on the back of the dirt, didn’t they? Yes the ball would skid and increase speed but for those with good eyes and quick hands, such was easier than a grass seam. Players used to complain about certain infields. Always grass.
Omar is better than Ozzie? On what planet? As clearly, a glove first SS, Ozzie had 10 seasons with a WAR of +4 or better (6 with a +5). Omar had 1 year with a +4 (1999 with a +6). Omar’s bat really isn’t that much better than Ozzie’s.
.oz-.262/.337/..328 w/ 28 hrs and 580 SB
ov-.272/.336/.352 w/ 80 hrs and 404 SB
what exactly makes Omar significantly better with the bat? 52 more hrs? Get out of here. Ozzie is the best SS in the game and I think even Ripken would agree,
Omar doesn’t even rank top 30 in WAR among SS. Ozzie ranks 9th behind better bats but leads defensively.
I can see him getting in because of his glove but by no means is he a slam dunk like Ozzie was.
And in some cases, their PED use.
“Vizquel WAS the best SS of his generation.”
And Ozzie was the best defensive player of all-time.
Fielding is not even close. Ozzie is as much ahead of Vizquel as Vizquel is above the third-best fielding SS. 15 WAR difference on dWAR. And Ozzie was a quarter-notch ahead of Vizquel with the bat. 87 OPS+ career vs. 82 OPS+. How Vizquel’s career has that many people duped I don’t know.
Use your eyes. Drivel, meaningless saberstats don’t tell the story. Vizquel played on grass and at a high level for a lot longer than Smith. If one is in, the other should be in my view.
and you’re still wrong. i can’t understand ppl who ignore facts when its given to them. im not saying Omar doesn’t have a case but don’t compare him to Ozzie because he was head and shoulders the best.
andruw Jones is a sure fire hof’er… if he gets 5 percented this is a sham and a scam
Andruw Jones – like dozens of other once excellent MLB players – belongs in the Almost Good Enough Hall of Fame but not the one in Cooperstown. .
Bingo
Compared to whom?
Even if you cut the stats in half from the year Bonds started juicing in 98′, he would still be by far the best player in the last 30 years. Throw out the HR record and give it back to Aaron if you must, but let Bonds in. He was a true “generational” talent, a label often misplaced on players like Harper and Machado who really haven’t earned that distinction yet. Pujols and Ken Griffey Jr. would round out my top 3 during that span for hitters, while Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and Roger Clemens would be my top 3 pitchers. Trout is the best player so far of this generation, but it will be interesting to see if he can explode during his prime like many of the past greats have. He did strike out 169 times last year, which is super high for what is considered the best player in the game.
“Even if you cut the stats in half from the year Bonds started juicing in 98′, he would still be by far the best player in the last 30 years. ”
You’re absolutely right. He was the best player in the game then, an amazing to watch. HOWEVER…if that wasn’t good enough for HIM, why should it be good enough for the HOF?
Tom asked a pretty darn good question.
I won’t argue it was justified but he saw the world fawning over two clearly inferior hitters (Sosa and McGwire) who were on the juice while he was clean and decided he wanted those accolades. Bonds is a very, very interesting sports personality, especially being the son of a great baseball player and having close ties to two African-American HOF who relayed their trials and tribulations as players coming into recently segregated baseball. Not saying it’s justified but understanding his history helps you understand his choices. I’m sure both Mays and Aaron wouldn’t condone his choices but I think he felt the need to prove he was the best in baseball and with it get the public acclaim he sought.
Nice response. Does it matter when it’s believed a player started to cheat? How do we know he never cheated before 98? Why should any cheater be rewarded? Players cheated for financial gain and personal glory. They perpetuated a fraud on the league, it’s fans and yes their co-workers.
Does not matter. He cheated!
He actually would have had more than 3K hits with fewer intentional walks. 3200 hits, 550 HRs, something like that?
Hey Jeff, I seriously would consider re-wording your header/title for this post.
It comes off that MLBTR readers are disrespecting the HOF ballot.
I think we all know what a “mock ballot” or a “mock-up” is, but nonetheless….
Thanks
You cannot give me a good reason not to vote for Rivera.
Any attempt would be funny.
he can’t throw a curveball or changeup
he only had 50 more saves than hoffman, but threw 200 more innings
whammy
Hoffman had 25 saves through his first 146 big league innings while Rivera came up as a starter, and was moved to the pen as a long relief and set-up guy in is first 2 MLB seasons. His first 174 big league innings produced 5 saves. So what if he can’t throw a change or curve? He had a cutter that was one of the most difficult pitches to square up. Also, Mariano has a lower ERA and FIP lower than Hoffman.
Someones gonna not vote for him “because he didn’t need his vote and wanted to help keep someone on the ballot” or “If so and so wasn’t unanimous I won’t let this guy.”
The man in all but 1 year only participated in .06 that 6/100 of the teams innings. An average team play about 1450 innings per season not counting extra innings. He pitched around 89 innings. I realize he was good at what he did, but a one dimensional specialist is not same as a full time hall of Famer like Ruth, Gehrig, William’s ect. And you have people who say DHers should not be 8n Hall.
Gary Sheffield and Todd Helton has great careers.
Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, ManRam should have a * Tainted player
Wasn’t Gary part of BALCO along with Barry? I’m sure there was a Terry and even Larry, potentially Perry. How is Gary not tainted if Barry is?
Todd Helton might be the most underrated player in the last 30 years
GREAT player at home. .345/.441/.607 line 227 HR 859 RBI. Darn good player on the road .287/.386/.469 142 HR, 547 RBI. Gotta believe that voters will take the Coors factor into account. Add to that the fact that 1B is flooded with good HoF candidates, and it’s not so cut and dry.
Rivera only one getting my vote. It’s so watered down, I pay no attention to it anymore
Hmmm……I keep refreshing, but can’t seem to find Juan Pierre.
With the exception of that first year, every subsequent year that Bonds and Clemens and the other criminals that used PED have been on the ballot they have come into this point of the process with about 70% of the ballots that are public voting for them. Then the other half of the show drops and they dropped out of contention. That is how it should be. They do not deserve to be in.
It’s hard to argue you against you. I don’t think PED guys should be in. However with the cases of Clemens and bonds. Would you not agree they were hall of famers before indulging in PEDS?
I’d say yes on Bonds, but not on Clemens. Clemens was borderline at that point as it’s believed, by many, that his juicing started in Toronto after Boston let him walk. Clemens had already accrued 3 CYs and 1 MVP at that time, which is why i say borderline. But 158 of his wins came after that point and, despite the W/l record of pitchers being devalued, it’s still a focus point when HoF votes are made.
Does not matter, when they started cheating. Good Lord!
Where is the love for Larry walker?
He has a higher career WAR than Vladimir Guerrero and at one time was the best player in baseball not named Griffey
It’s the “Coors Field” argument.
I get that but his road splits are very much in line with Griffey’s career slash lines
Yes, but it still gets the side eye from many voters.
He’s getting in next year, especially if Mussina moves off the ballot this year.
I cant help but wonder…is everyone an actual fan of the game of baseball, or just like to look at the pictures on this site….Scott Rollen not being towards the top is an indication of ignorance or randomly clicking.
Scott Rolen was essentially Brooks Robinson 2.0
His defense alone should be enough to get him in the hall.
A lot of these guys deserve to be in, I’m just making noise about Rollen. YouTube some of his throws from 3rd, clutch hitting and hard nosed baseball player. First game I watched Machado play, he was still at 3rd. He made a throw that everyone went crazy over. I seen Scott do that on the regular. Just saying that he deserves it.
“Where is the love for Larry walker?”
You can only vote for 10 players and most writers won’t even vote for 10.
I can easily find more than 10 HOF on that list…went with Mariano Rivera, Curt Shilling, Edgar Martinez, Roy Hallady, Mike Mussina, Fred McGrif. Jeff Kent And the following 3 should get in but have to wear a BALCO steroids baeball cap instead of a team cap in Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Manny Ramirez.
So why did vladdy get in with a lower career WAR than Walker?
He was fun to watch.
Kent was never named in BALCO.
Edgar, Halladay, and (especially) Mo are pretty much no-brainers. McGriff and Mussina deserve to get in, and I’m a supporter of Vizquel making it in too.
I picked those six, and that’s it. Any of the known PED guys *might* have a case because a few of them were certainly good enough without PEDs to have made it, but it’s a gray area (how do you know for sure when they started to look at how they did before then?) and I don’t think we’re quite to the point of everyone being ready for that conversation yet.
If I had a ballot, I think it would go
Rivera
Walker
Halladay
McGriff
Mussina
Edgar
Rolen
Schilling (POS)
Helton
Berkman (Very surprised to look up his numbers and see how good he was)
I’ve went back and forth for a couple of years on Clemens, Bonds, and Ramirez but have decided they shouldn’t be in. I always thought asterisks would be fine, and there is definitely users in the hall who hid it better. But that’s not an excuse for knowingly cheating.
I also find it mind boggling at the amount of love Vizquel gets. Are we really rewarding a guy for having a long career just because he played good defense? His career OPS is below .700 and his OPS plus is baely above 80. I dont care how many hits he got. Jeff Mathis would get the same amount if he played 25 years and nobody considers him a hall of famer.
Berkman was one of the 3 best hitters of the 2000s
Berkman is not a hall of famer…nor is morris, raines, baines, fisk.
water down the hall more and more…put Dwight Evans in a get it over with
Who are the users that hid it better?
The ones who haven’t been caught. It’s kind of naive to believe that there isn’t any users who are enshrined who didn’t touch anything.
That’s because Vizquel was a serviceable hitter most of his career (and had a few years where he was even above average) in addition to his elite defense.
Jeff Mathis is a great defensive catcher, but with a career OPS+ of 52 they’re on completely different stratospheres.
Vizquel is a real Hall of Famer…..with the highest of standards….kick Ozzie Smith out…..
I don’t see how a career DH can be in the Hall of Fame. That’s half of a player, IMO. Sorry, Edgar.
DH is a position. Its been part of the game for more than 4 decades. You might not like that it exists, but it is a legitimate position and Edgar may be the best ever. While I think I might set the bar higher for a DH….you need to be a game changing, exceptional hitter, I don’t think its right to ignore the position completely in the HOF.
Yep!
Steve Garvey!
I dont think your poll worked. I am guessing people only voted for one person. Not a single HOFer according to this poll
If Bonds isn’t in the hall, neither should Pudge, Ortiz, or Bagwell be. Since 2/3 are already in and the other likely will be as well, Bonds deserves to also. As long as there is an asteric next to his name that signifies he took PEDs, it’s fine by me for him to be inducted in the hall. Same with Clemens and A-Rod.
Generally speaking, I don’t count the PED thing against these guys. Bonds may not be the home run king without steroids, but he still put up unbelievable numbers.
The one guy that I still kind of hold PED suspensions fairly strongly against is Manny. And that’s because he pretty much retired for the sake of not getting the lifetime ban. That implies he was so dependent on them, he gave up his career instead of stopping.
Agreed, 1600—-add Piazza and Thome to that list…..Jim Thome —possibly nicest guy in the world, but at the highest of high of the steroid era (2001-2003) he goes 49, 52, 47 and hits 24% of his career homers in a three year span. As he is a nice guy and Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds all fall in the tool category, JT goes unscathed. There’s just a point where it was part of the game and it needs to be understood, if not accepted. (and who knows the real extent)
My God! Thome was never accused and Piazza was never, ever proved.
Except for cheaters being in, I’m not disagreeing with you, but Bonds admitted to taking PEDs. He just said he didn’t know he took them. I’m not sure anyone believes that. Ortiz did get caught.
Bagwell and Pudge did not. I have little doubt they used PEDs, however, I have little doubt you have gone 10 miles over the speed-limit. A cop can’t give you a ticket unless he knows.
Some writers have inside sources they trust, but unless a voter has those similar sources, what is he going to do?
Bonds is a thief. He stole wins from teams and pitchers and owners and fans. He stole records. He stole playoff games. He has changed history. He took money out of other players pockets. Known thieves do not belong in the Hall of Fame.
lol, that last paragraph is such a massive shift in tone it actually made me chuckle.
Anyway, you yourself compared PEDs in the early 2000s to going 10 miles over the speed limit. That’s the thing, pretty much everyone in the league was doing it, and it just wasn’t being noticed or tested against. I’m confident that some of the guys already in used, I know people like Aaron used things that were available at the time, and then go back to the days of people like John McGraw and you have absolute slime in the hall of fame.
I’m not, and will never be, a fan of playing moral police at the hall of fame. It’s a little different when its now and its clearly against the rules. But these guys that played in the generation that it was commonplace… the entire league was juiced up and they STILL dominated the league. And some of these guys are very much responsible for bringing baseball back to popularity. I don’t agree at all that they need to be kept out while we turn our noses up at their morals. If they were HOF worthy on the field, put them in
Yes!
Yes to macstruts not the next poster.
Bonds’ arm guard was also a performance enhancer. Still, I voted for him.
Yeah as others have said, this poll didn’t work the intended way. The numbers add up to 100%, which they definitely shouldn’t do with this type of poll. It means it’s being calculated that if I vote for, say, Rivera and Halladay they will both be shown at 50%. So many votes cast that it’s probably rough to start over with a different polling formula.
Still interesting to see how it’s panning out. Those two guys mentioned above look like our picks with Martinez knocking on the door
Yeah, sorry everyone, I thought it would show up differently than that. Will try to sort out a workaround so the results have some meaning.
it does show the number of votes for each. Just divide the vote totals out after about a day and post the results.
I really hope Moose gets in….
If Baines is in this class, you might as well put every single player listed in the poll in.
Veterans Committee!
I don’t think we are giving Todd Helton enough credit
He still put up hall of fame numbers away from coors
voted for 12 guys, deal with it HOF rules
Yep I included Todd Helton because you can punish him for playing half of his game at coors when his numbers away from coors are hall of fame worthy as well
Can not
yeah, i was on the fence when it came to Helton because of the Coors effect. half of me wishes to consider it some, while the other half not. Either method still put Walker in, (given just how absurdly good he was) and i figured Helton did just enough long enough to justify the same treatment.
His numbers away from Coors are not HoF worthy IMO. They would put him in that tier of just below HoF guys like Dwight Evans, Mattingly, Simmons, Keith Hernandez, etc who were great players, but not quite the elite of the elite that belong in the Hall.
and to clarify i voted for all but Moose, Pettitte, and those heavily accused of PEDs
I went with: Bonds, Clemens, Walker, Manny, Edgar, and Rivera. The other one I considered was Jones, but I decided to leave him off.
If they looked like Hall of Famers BEFORE they took roids, just let them in. There’s already steroids users we don’t know about anyways in the Hall. Just have them pay a hefty money fine.
These cheaters stole from other fans, players and owners. They forever changed history, thus cheating future fans and you want to give them baseball’s highest honor?
Yes, there are people who are in the Hall of Fame that didn’t get caught. There are murderers that never got caught? Therefore you should honor known murderers?
You people make no sense.
BBWAA knew about all this and some helped cover it up (McGwire). Shouldn’t we be asking why they still have the right to pick and choose who gets in considering they were in on it?
Hey MLBTR poll maker – perhaps the result percentages should be relative to the number of submittals versus the number of votes., thus aligning with how the actual HOF balloting is tabulated. Seems Mo in the lead with 7% of the vote is a tad misleading, on certainly not reflective of ‘his’ true vote domination.
Sorry, just saw the comment. posted by the staff at the end of the story. Seems they’re on it!!
WAR obviously isn’t 100% accurate, but it’s at least interesting that Scott Rolen is worth a 70.2 career WAR and Derek Jeter was at 72.4. Jeter will be in on the first ballot, while Rolen is sitting around 20% of known ballots. I don’t doubt that Jeter was a better player, but the gap isn’t as big as it is perceived to be.
It’s the Hall of FAME not the hall of numbers it’s a museum of baseball and it’s history to not have Charlie Hustle or the Rocket or the Home Run King is completely ridiculous the games happened and people watched and people cheered it’s the Hall of Fame not the Hall of integrity nor the Hall of moral position let’s stop the posturing and out these great players in the Hall
Actually, character is a consideration.
I think the appropriate resolution is, along with Rose, to put them in posthumously.
My main complaint with Bonds and Clemens is that they probably were good enough without “enhancement”
Character is not a consideration. Betting on baseball and lying about it is.
“5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
Your hat has a hole in it.
^Then you better start taking a sledgehammer to the enshrined that were despicable human beings. Your hypocrisy is showing.
Mike Trout should.
what am i missing on Jeff Kent, a second baseman with great numbers, just one down year and was still going 280-29-105 at age 37? just because he came off as a jerk, or is there a steroid rumor im not remembering?
Kent getting the Schilling treatment. And Albert Belle. Kent should be in.
yeah, he should…. kept Bonds in line on those Giants teams…
Said this elsewhere – sacrilegious statement from a Cubs fan, but Kent’s offensive numbers in my view offset Sandberg’s defensive advantage, No roid rumor that I recall either – maybe the voters figure he got a contact high from Bonds.
I think writers view Kent the way they view Schilling. One f many reasons why BBWAA should no longer have a right to vote.
Rolen should definitely get some consideration. 97th in all time WAR at 70.2 (higher than Andre Dawson, and Ivan Rodriguez), more home runs and RBI’s than Edgar, 21.1 dWAR (higher than Mike Schmidt).
It’s a crime that Billy Wagner gets almost no recognition. Aside from Mo and maybe Hoffman, he was the best closer of his day and a top ten all-time. Had Wags been a Yankee, he would have been a first-ballot pick.
People want to keep pointing at his postseason numbers which is unfair considering the Hall of Famer leans heavily on regular season performance.
Meant for Gomer regarding Wagner.
I still feel that writers are hypocrites as they are willing to vote in the Commissioner who single handily pushed for Big Mac,Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds to bring back baseball from the dead and allowed for steroids to run rampant. For those saying that Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa & Roger Clemens and company should never be allowed into the Hall of Fame let’s also remember on avg it was reported per team about 3-5 players on steroids and those that were clean why didn’t they speak up? You want to know why no player spoke out because they needed the aforementioned above to help them hike up player salaries which is why they are hypocrites as well.
Also, do people not remember in Whitey Ford’s book he stated he cheated during the last few years of his career by spitting, using sandpaper & scuffing the ball it was also known that when Rickey Henderson was inducted there were whispers of him and Cal Ripken not playing on an even playing fields themselves.
Bottom line during their era these players were the best and if you allowed a Mike Piazza and especially Jeff Bagwell then Barry Bonds, Clemens and Sosa deserve to join them it’s the Hall of Fame not the cathedral church that you are inducting them into.
Writers also defended Andro in 1998 during McGwire’s run at Maris’ record. He and others destroyed the writer that outed McGwire. They knew PEDs were rampant for years. Yet they now have a say on who gets in and who doesn’t despite being part of the cover. Yes, hypocrites you are correct.
I just don’t get that exercised about the HOF, who’s in, who’s out, etc. I look at Cooperstown as a baseball museum. Some players are “enshrined” with a caricature plaque on the wall while the overwhelming majority are not – and some who are not have done some extraordinary things. My exhibit A on this score is always the sub-.500 career pitcher with a pedestrian 3.78 career ERA who on one October day in 1956 was perfect in a World Series game. THAT is baseball. Larsen is “in the HOF” because he did something extraordinary, No plaque, just a distinctions none of the other men who ever pitched a baseball can claim. He didn’t need a ballot or a vote from some pin-headed voter. What I love about Cooperstown is the incomparable collection of memorabilia relating to those moments that make the game the best damned game human beings ever invented – without reference to the popularity contest winners having plaques.
I think what has happened is the writers most are bias and not only that some selections lately from veterans committee or writers themselves makes no sense how you vote in Harold Baines before Edgar Martinez?
How you include a no defensive catcher Mike Piazza yet use the same theory to keep out Jeff Kent a more fearsome 2nd baseman than Craig Biggio? The Hall of Fame is being watered down lately and the onus is on the writers and committee selection.
Another problem there are a lot of fringe players that if it weren’t for their teams consistently making the playoffs that got them to the top and be considered HOF worthy it is used against those that teams are not good and therefore don’t have the chance to showcase their talents in the playoffs.
Case in point say Felix Hernandez now retires he was at one time one of the most dominating pitchers but his team just didn’t make the playoffs year in year out like say Tom Glavine whom not only pitched in a division that was weak during his time but also pitched in the N.L.
“How you include a no defensive catcher Mike Piazza yet use the same theory to keep out Jeff Kent a more fearsome 2nd baseman than Craig Biggio?”
Although it’s sacrilege for a Cubs fan to say so, you could say the same thing about Kent and Ryne Sandberg. Kent’s career OPS+ 123, Sandberg’s 114. Of course a case can be made for 9-0 GG in Sandberg’s favor, but the MVP’s are 1 apiece, Kent’s career .500 slugging looks lot better than Ryno’s .452, as do 377 homers to 282. To your point, the voters employ disingenuous selective use of stats and vote for popular, likeable guys instead of being consistent in applying statistical criteria.
Baines was picked by the Vets committee, or whatever they call themselves these days. That propelled Edgar.
Agreed on Kent.
Am I the only one that is saddened that because Roy Halladay got all high and crashed his plane so he’s getting into the HOF?!?! I thought “1st ballot HOFer” meant something. Halladay is Bret Saberhagen or Johan Santana (if you rate Halladay high because of 2 CYA), or if you just like his counting numbers, he’s Roy Oswalt or Tim Hudson. I don’t get it. 200 wins and 2000 K’s. That’s a lot of guys.
Halladay is borderline HOF overall for me, but a bit ahead of Saberhagen or David Cone. Santana is a full notch behind. But, slightly more WAR and definitely more WAA is a difference..
But yes, Benny, you raise another point.
One of ESPN’s many goofballs on baseball said he just knew Halladay never roided.
You knew, how? Before he did, how many people would have suspected Halladay of drug use? And, it doesn’t matter if some of it was related to his back pain — it was there.
For the record, I don’t think Halladay roided.
Yep..here is what you should get…..the Hall voting and standards shifted 4 or 5 years ago. Halladay is not a hall of famer, nor is morris,lee smith, trammell and Raines…..Baines is a joke
Just remember when the standard was Babe, Mays, Heilmann, Robinson’s,Gibson, Mantle,Musial,Henderson, Williams,Brett, Sisler and Hornsby.
the new Commissioner is to blame……he wants to change the game so why not change the standards..”.Hall of very good players”……
Voters are also bleeding hearts. They are just as guilty of this.
Ok I am sure most wont agree with me and I am not saying who should or should not be in. Rivera,only average slightly over 3 outs per %ame for his career. In 1156 games he played roughly 12% of the game. I know he’s a reliever but for comparison Gibson was in the game for 66% of all games he pitched in and Cy Young 90%. If you let in people who broke the rules, Pete Rose while perhaps and idiot, didn’t break the rules(or get caught) while playing. So let him in as a player not a manager.
Pete Rose not in the HOF because of Bud Selig yet Bud should look in the mirror himself as he pocketed and cheated himself as well when owner of the Brewers then he cheated the fans by allowing steroids to pocket more money as a commissioner thus creating a rise in player salaries which the fans ultimately now have to pay more money just to watch America’s pastime.
They induct 3 managers that knew full well whom was utilizing steroids and how rampant it was running in their clubhouse but they gladly accepted being voted in rather than to be honest and admit their mistakes as managers themselves.
As for Rivera yes it wasn’t like old times where a relief pitcher would throw sometimes 3 innings but those were different times and you have to marvel with all we as fans have seen with steroids and more Rivera doing what he did with one pitch you have to give him props for not only surviving with that one pitch but dominating in the fashion he did and to do so in a big market club as well is pretty impressive.
902 people did not vote for Rivera.
I could never vote for Bonds or Clemens (or McGuire or Sosa) simply because they created an uneven playing field. Either everyone uses them or no one. No one player should have that advantage over any other player.
It is obvious the ‘old’ standard to get in the Hall is all but gone…the ‘exception’ of a bad choice is now the norm. Instead of voting UP to the standard, it is now open to a slew of players ‘Below’…….Garvey is now a Hall of famer as is , Dwight Evans, Walker, Mattingly, Whitaker,Munson, Bernie Williams, Murphy,Simmons,Delgado,Cone, ….and when they get tired of filling up the Hall with all these players….they will let in the Steroid Kings….
The Hall will have to have a brand new WING…for just the GREATEST as it was intended.
kick out immediately…Fisk, Gordon, Rizzuto, Raines, Baines, Haines,Morris,Trammell,Lee Smith and Ozzie Smith.(Vizquel auto replace)
They need to let me upvote your post 100 times.
I can’t believe it, but the MLBTR users got it right and the Hall voters weren’t close.
how is curt Schilling not in the hall of fame?