The Cardinals and Rockies have recently engaged in “preliminary trade negotiations” regarding Nolan Arenado, reports Jon Morosi of MLB.com. Morosi characterizes the Redbirds as “a viable suitor” for the five-time All-Star.
Of course, a deal coming to fruition is far from certain. Indeed, just yesterday, we heard that a St. Louis acquisition of Arenado was unlikely. That the sides are talking could give Cardinals’ fans cause for hope, but it’s hardly proof anything will get across the finish line. Teams surely engage in preliminary negotiations on any number of scenarios without ultimately completing the deal all the time.
Just how far these talks between Colorado and St. Louis have yet progressed isn’t clear. The Cardinals are intent on adding an impact position player this offseason, Morosi notes, although a re-signing of free agent Marcell Ozuna could fill that void. Morosi adds that Dakota Hudson could be a central figure in Arenado talks, although that seems more speculative than a definitive report that Colorado is intent on acquiring the 25-year-old sinkerballer.
As Morosi notes, an Arenado deal would be difficult to pull off, whether for the Cardinals or another suitor. Arenado is due $234MM over the next seven years on the extension he signed last February. That’d be a huge commitment for any acquiring team, but it’s hardly unreasonable for a player of his caliber. Anthony Rendon signed for $245MM over the same term this offseason. While Rendon has been marginally better than Arenado over the past few seasons, the Rockies’ star is a year younger.
More difficult to navigate are Arenado’s full no-trade clause and post-2021 opt-out clause. Arenado has in the past been vocal about his desire to compete, and Morosi notes he admires the Cardinals’ franchise history and has a strong rapport with Paul Goldschmidt. It thus seems feasible he’d be willing to waive the no-trade clause, particularly if the Rockies pivot to a large-scale rebuild. It should be noted, however, Arenado himself has not addressed the no-trade clause publicly.
The opt-out clause poses a greater challenge. Suitors figure to be understandably reluctant to part with the kind of young talent Colorado would surely require for their franchise player if they fear he’ll depart after 2021. (Of course, if Arenado were to not exercise his opt-out in two years’ time, it’s probably an indicator he couldn’t beat the hefty $164MM he’s currently due from 2022-26 on the open market). Morosi reports that St. Louis could explore attempting to convince Arenado to waive his opt-out clause (particularly by guaranteeing him more money), but there’s hardly any indication he’d be willing to do so.
Arenado will surely remain one of the game’s most notable trade candidates unless a deal ultimately comes to fruition. Whether St. Louis or any other team can overcome the numerous hurdles to a deal is one of the offseason’s most fascinating storylines.
Get it done
That would ad more to the Cubs ongoing nightmare.
Or if he and Goldy go downhill as they age, it’ll cripple the Cards
I agree. Let the kids play. Wait on Gorman. Don’t trade farm talent. Draft better. Goldie was crap last year at the plate aside from some sporadic pop. Don’t trade for players past their prime.
Johrealtime — That’s always a possibility but in the case of these two stars, both have been highly durable during their careers as opposed to a guy like Dexter Fowler who had a long history as a DL stud. Why the Cards gave him an 85MM 5 yr deal was amazing. He had started in only 109 games a year on average over the 5 years prior to signing with the Cards and that hasn’t changed very much.
Wrong.
Actually correct.
“reports Jon Morosi of MLB.com”
ROFLOL!
Jon Morosi of MLB.com!!!!!!!
Arenado will still be a Rockie three years from today.
That seems unlikely. Unless the Rockies somehow manage to contend by 2021 or Arenado breaks down he will opt out at the end of 2021 if he’s still on their roster.
Xlx — that’s true. I don’t know that there is any bad blood between Arenado and the Rox, but it’s most likely he wants to play for a team that’s a more frequent player in the post season.
Interesting.
Arenado has been a stud, but much of that is home/road split oriented. While playing at high elevation has negative consequences as far as fatigue/recovery, it’s hard to chalk all his less spectacular career road numbers to readjusting to lower elevation.
I’d chalk it up to that and the normal home road splits. MLB knows their stuff, he’s a superstar anywhere he plays or they wouldn’t want him.
Arenado 24-28yo
Home. .332/.392/.645
Away. .269/.332/.506
COL 129 OPS+
Holliday 24-28yo
Home .357/.423/.645
Away. .280/.348/.455
COL 131 OPS+
STL 138 OPS+
I wonder if the Cards have a reason to not be afraid here?
They would probably have to give at the bare minimum Hudson and Gorman, just to get smoked by the reds
Is there a new Reds team? You aren’t talking about the one in Ohio are you?
Wow!
Don’t give any the farn Cardinals.
Oh hell, give them the farm, AND the tractor!! World Series dynasty in sight! Go Cards!
Arenado alone wouldn’t even make the Cards sure NL favorites. Talking about a dynasty is very premature.
Troll. Which team in the division in the next 3 years would be better? Pitching is already solid with more coming and a line up anchored with Goldy/Arenado with great D. Foolish statement.
First off, he said NL, not NL central. The dodgers would still be far ahead of the cardinals. Secondly, per FanGraphs depth charts (& likely ZIPs), the Cubs still would be marginally better.
Calling someone a troll because you’re too ignorant to see the validity of what they said is a pretty ironic comment.
I would say this evens up the Dodgers and Cards with the Dodgers having better starting pitching and the Cards having better offense. The Cubs are in a bad spot they have no farm club and players that are getting ready to be to expensive to keep as a whole.
The cardinals currently project as an 83 win team — the cubs an 88 win team, and the dodgers a 98 win team (fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=ALL&t…)
You don’t think you might have to give up some of that pitching to get areondo?
The Dodgers offense was much better last year and the cardinals lost ozuna. They need to add multiple bats to even be in the same conversation. Outside of Goldschmidt, dejong and maybe edman that offense looks pretty rough.
DeJong hit .342 in April last season and pretty much a tick over .200 the rest of the way. He was literally Bader after April.
Which team won a playoff series last year
So, some projected the Cubs to win the division last year with the Cards in 3rd. How did that work out? These games have to be played.
That projected crap sounds the same as last year.
Someone doesn’t understand what the word “literally” means.
So much can happen in 3 years that the answer to your question can change every year. Look what Cincy is doing, and in 3 years, half the Cardinals team will be retired or gone elsewhere.
Rnz269 since when has Fangraphs been correct on wins and losses? You are not the only one who relies on Fangraphs way too much without using your own judgement. Cardinals are the team to beat in the NL Central. That is above Cubs or even the Brewers. I honestly believe cards take the division and Brewers 3 games out of the division but win the wild card. Cubs final season of sub-.500 is this year. Reds make improvements over last year and win 10 games more. Pirates tank and get a top 5 pick next year.
As a Cubs fan I would absolutely dread seeing Arenado and Goldschmidt on the same team , especially the Cardinals.lol needless to say I don’t have confidence in my cubs
Pitching is not solid. Lot of question marks.
I beg.
St. Louis will base their offer on the two years before the opt out, not the entirety of the deal, since that is not a given.
Cardinals just gonna try to keep trading for the best players at each position out of the NL West?
hey whatever works
If Carpenter is included, and that’s a big if, then the trade makes sense to the Cardinals but I don’t see how the Rockies would be interested in him. Maybe if multiple controllable pitchers were included as well.
Carpenter can’t play 3B, he’s a bench player at this point, he means nothing
One down season and everyone forgets about you
He can barely throw the ball to first base. His walk to K rate ballooned last year as well. He’s definitely seen his better day and can not be counted on for consistent production not fielding. Just stating obvious. Nothing points to him having a better year but a wing and a prayer.
not everyone
Carpenter has been a 2 tool player for his entire career. He can’t run. He can’t throw. He can’t play defense. He is losing power and his hit tool is going away. So he’s morphing into a guy that has to hit over the shift to have an impact. Good luck.
Just like Carlos Martinez….they got paid and took the “foot of the gas”. Carpenter started selling salsa and cereal with his face on it along with his current salary and lost focus, for sure. Martinez got a little money and decided to dial it back to 70-80 percent. The skill is there when talking about carpenter but he played like hot garbage last year. I doubt he has another excellent year(s) in him.
Glad to know you’re able to read their minds.
Martinez dealt with injuries and was still very good in the bullpen last year. There’s no reason to think he can’t return to his old form if he can return to the rotation this year.
Maybe if he gets rid of his gut.
If Rockies are rebuilding- they can take carpenter and to take carpenter- that would require St. Louis giving up all 3 of their top prospects.
Arenado is going to get paid 70 million til he opts out And is worth every cent. carpenter will make 55 million and is worthless. So u sell your farm to afford arenado in a salary dump move. And if I’m Rockies- it would still be a hard pass.
I’m perfectly fine losing Hudson. Have many other prospects waiting in the minors.
Uh, not exactly. I too would part with Hudson if that is what it would take to get Arenado. However, the Cards no longer have the plethora of young pitching options in the upper minors they once enjoyed. Losing Hudson would hurt, but can be overcome. My guess is that newly acquired Libertore could have jump-started the negotiations. If the Cards would add O’Neill to the aforementioned two young hurlers, Colorado would have to take on Fowler or Carpenter, or swallow some of Arennado’s dollars. Of course Blackmon or Dahl would complement nicely, and would solve the Red Bird need for a lefty swinging corner outfielder. Fun to speculate.
There have been tons of superstars available for trade this offseason: Betts, Lindor, Clevinger, Bryant, Merrifield, Arenado… yet none have been traded. Maybe that’s because they are not worth what they used to be. Colorado is going to ask for the moon, for a guy that will cost over $30 million per year. It’s not going to happen. Half the teams in mlb want to rebuild their entire minor league system with one big trade. The other half of the teams are unwilling to give away their whole system for 1 player. Move on. None of these trades are happening.
The fact that you called Mike Clevenger and Whit Merrifield “superstars’ negates your entire opinion. Neither of those guys are superstars, they’re just good ballplayers. Clevenger is a solid #3 in most rotations, maybe a #2 in others.
With that said, Lindor only goes if Cleveland decides to blow it up or gets back MLB-ready pieces who can kick off an on-the-fly rebuild that keeps them in the hunt for the WC this year. Bryant is almost certainly on his way out of Chicago once his grievance is decided as teams are only going to pay as much for him as his remaining years of control are worth.
Betts is as good as traded. The only question is where he’ll go, and his value will never be higher than it is right now, but I can also easily see Boston holding him until the deadline while they play out the first half and see where the chips fall. No reason to trade your biggest asset when you have other major payroll complications and a decent chance at a Wild Card if you can turn it around, and if not a contender will gladly pay top prospects for a guy they think will put them over the top.
I’m guessing Betts to the Dodgers in July for Dustin May or Keibert Ruiz, possibly both. Boston needs pitching and a catcher for the future, Betts gives LA a top-end RF while Bellinger moves back to 1B and Muncy platoons at 2B, possibly with Justin Turner depending on how their IF shakes out between now and then.
This ^^^ right here. Not that I blame teams either btw, you gotta get the max value you can but it’s true, teams are reluctant to part with high end prospects with years of cheap control for a couple years of superstars. It’s frustrating from a fans standpoint cause who doesn’t like a fat trade but it’s understandable.
Merrifield is a superstar?
Superstar, meh, elite you could argue. Plus you could say he comes with Superstar control and cost ahaha
Jon gray could also be thrown in to a trade to replace young pitching.
Cards are pitching rich
Pitching rich? Who do they have? Give me the rich not the wannabe rich pitchers.
Dont even debate with Themed. He is a moron.
I was just wondering if they were so “rich” with pitching, why do they keep giving Wainwright a contract, sign Koreans, and trade for A ball pitchers from other teams?
They have 6 quality starters including Martinez and the new Korean guy, plus Reyes (if he can finally stay healthy) and Gomber knocking on the door, while Gant and Ponce de Leon are decent fill-ins when needed. They’ve still got a ton of depth.
Martinez head case/unsure of injury and durability. Korean unproven. Reyes unknown/injured. Gomber injured/unproven. Gant decent but fell off in 2nd half. Ponce mediocre. Do they have a BUNCH of pitchers? Yes. Are they “rich” in pitching? No.
Re-read your response through the word “Healthy”.
They have or you HOPE they have?
Which is it? Take off your rose colored glasses. Martinez is nothing more than average bullpen material, at best. And that is all he has proven.
Dahl can’t get out of bed w/o getting hurt.
The rumor I have heard deal is
Hudson
O’Neil
CMart
Liberatore
I honestly believe get him in STL and he won’t want to opt out. Only player I would feel would be missed is Hudson the others are replaceable in house.
Him opting out has nothing to do with where he is. If he’s good enough that he can get a bigger contract than what’s left on the deal, he’ll opt out. If he wants to stay in St. Louis and St. Louis wants to have him, they can work out a new deal.
The rumor I heard was Wong, Bader, Mikolas and Poncedeleon. The guy at Wendys drive thru told me that.
Think of Liberatore as Jose Martinez and Randy Arozarena. A week ago, I wouldn’t have felt too bad about that package for Arenado. Would be nice to see a bad contract go out on Cardinals side though. Agree, would have missed Hudson.
He holds all of the “cards.” (Sorry, not intended). Like Stanton two years ago, he can dictate where the Rockies trade him to. If he wants to play for say, the Dodgers; he could very well tell the Rox, make a deal with LA.
why wouldn’t he want to play in STL?
Have you been to St. Louis?
“It’s boring” Kris Bryant
Yeah hate to play on a team that’s a contender year in year out for almost 2 decades. Denver isn’t a social Mecca so there is that idea.
St. Louis is a great city. It’s crime statistics get blown out of whack because they are tabulated in a way most other cities don’t. It’s a terrific baseball town. Lots to do. I own a home here and love my city. Get NA here.
I highly doubt you live in the city..mostly likely, county. St. Louis city is a dangerous place.
I hope they get him. Arenado is my favorite player..has been for a few years. The rumored trade package would be giving up cheap, controllable MLB /Near MLB prospects and taking a massive contract in return. If they took a bad contact from the cardinals it makes a little more sense.
Best baseball town and fans in the country. Organization is in the playoffs more often than not,
The city of St. Louis isn’t really that bad. There are its bad parts like every other city. I live in the city and have never been worried about my safety.
Skidog, how are the crime stats in STL “blown out of whack?”
@Maurice Lock. I’ve lived in St Louis (city and ‘burbs), Chicago (city), and DC— all “dangerous” cities and all perfectly safe for people like me. It’s not random violence. It’s ghetto on ghetto. It all depends on what you’re involved in. If I bought or sold illegal drugs, maybe those cities would be dangerous.
I live near STL. Great baseball city. Terrible crime.
@cardslefty Not random crime. Just stay out of the crossfire.
Really depends on the person. If you want to be with a perennial contender, the Cards are usually a good bet to be in contention.
Some players care about playing in a party city, others want a good home for family, others warm weather, some close to home, etc
Stanton didn’t want to play in STL.
Arenado’s mentor was Matt holiday and holiday loved St. Louis…Arenado also has a great relationship with Goldschmidt…he will easily wave his no trade for the Cardinals…the only thing holding this up is the opt out
Thank God
@cards81
Bingo. Nailed it.
Think about this too; When STL tried to land Stanton, Giancarlo said no to San Francisco AND St. Louis. The reason wasn’t *where” he was playing, but whether or not the team he was going to was a contender. STL/SF at the time weren’t close to competing for a World Series and hadn’t gone to the playoffs in a few years. STL looks a lot different now, coming off an NLCS appearance.
I think the hold up too isn’t just the opt-out, but this has to get approved by the GM and ownership. Just cause Nolan Arenado would accept a deal, and GM jeff bridich would trade Nolan, doesn’t mean the Manforts (owners) would ok it. Trying to sell another rebuild to a fanbase that has seen so much turnover would hurt ticket sales, especially trading a top 5 player in MLB and the face of their franchise.
Agreed…I’m sure they are figuring the player swap and value of contracts…but I see this deal done by the end of the week
Arenado’s mentor was not Matt Holliday. Matt Holliday was gone by the time Nolan was drafted. Troy Tulowitzki was Arenado’s mentor.
How was Matt Holliday Arenado’s mentor?
google.com/amp/s/www.mlb.com/amp/news/matt-hollida…
How does a story about them becoming friends in 2016, after Nolan was in the league for 3 years, show that he was a mentor? BTW, that story also mentions they were introduced by Troy Tulowitzki.
Hiflew, it doesn’t.. But it’s a cool story the fans and media will spin.
sorry…Maybe i misspoke when i said mentor…but yes they are good friends…the point being Arenado will wave his no trade for St. louis
Glad he stayed away. Hurt all the time. Diva.
Why wouldn’t he want to play in St. Louis? Starts with J and ends in K. Meet that dork once and you’ll run like you stole something.
Trolling again
How long did it take the Robust Scouting handle to get banned? Seems like you just lost CFAP! They will be missed.
What does Jack Clark have to do with anything?
Arenado has said he admires St. Louis’s history and is friends with Goldy. Obviously, doesn’t guarantee he’ll accept a trade, but it’s not exactly the Stanton situation either.
And there is zero chance of Colorado trading him to a division rival unless the return is May, Lux, Ruiz and two other top prospects. Why would Colorado set themselves back a decade when they have no obligation to trade him?
That’s not true at all. Rockies hold all the cards. U can simply just keep one of the best players in baseball and not trade or entertain offers. Then u can make a deal- and if he rejects it. So be it. It’s laughable to say he gets to pick a destination. He can opt out in 2 years and then play for whoever he wants
Giving up Hudson and libereratore is a ton especially if he keeps his opt out clause.
No its not, Liberatore hasnt hit MLB and STL has tons of SP options. Arenado is a game changer and is better than every current STL player. Gotta give it up to get it.
Who are these tons of pitchers they have?
You’re like a freaking owl tonight. “Who?” “Who?” “Who?” with an obtuse “Why?” thrown in for good measure.
Or just answer the question
They have Gant, Kim, Gomber, Ponce, Heasly, woodford…nothing spectacular but they do have options
Like I said, give me the rich not the wannabe.
Kim, Reyes, and Gomber on their own are rich enough depth for any team.
I’ll say it again. Kim is unproven. Hasn’t pitched one single inning in MLB. Reyes hasn’t pitched since when? Gomber? Where was he last year?
Gomber was hurt…
I know Gomber was hurt. That was the point. Cards fans preach about all these pitchers and the depth, yet most all coming off injuries and/or unproven.
That doesn’t change the fact that they have tons of options and only one needs to hit, regardless of whether or not they’ve thrown zero or 10,000 MLB innings. Inexperience does not prevent success
Bullpen guys.
Just get him to waive the opt out as part of the trade. Wasn’t their a report a few months ago that Arenado didn’t even want an opt out in his contract?
Hummmmm………
If the Cardinals were so gung ho to being in on an impact 3B – why weren’t they bidding on Rendon?
Instead they’re thinking of moving 2 starting pitchers, a top prospect, and a ML player for a 3B making the same money that might be a bit better?
Jon Morosi – the clickbait king – is only right about 3% of the time…..and by then everyone covering and following MLB knows what he’s selling.
How do you know the Cardinals weren’t bidding on Rendon? The Cardinals plans dont often get out compared to a lot of other teams.
I don’t know if they were or weren’t. I’m saying that they probably would have been better off outbidding the Angels for Rendon than giving up prospects and $ for Arenado.
Rockies get Dexter Fowler, Tyler O’Neil, Alex Reyes and Dakota Hudson
Not nearly enough!
Fowler would also have to waive his no trade clause as well and I doubt that happens.
I would give them the package of hudson, liberatore, oneill and cmart, but they would have to throw in jon gray and we could send edmundo sosa as well. If no gray then they would have to take Fowler if he would wave his ntc. No way they give up that much talent without sending some payroll back or arenado waives the opt outs immediately. Or both.
Not nearly enough for Gray and Arenado
He’s a 6war player. Assuming he opts out, that means he’s only getting paid 70m. Plenty of surplus value there.
If he opts out, then the cards gave up a young great starter, another possible young starter, their closer, and oneill to have arenado for 2 seasons and pay him 70 million dollars? Then they lose arenado and those other players? That doesnt seem even at all. Arenados road numbers are good not great. 70 mil for 2 years of arenado doesnt equal a ton of surplus value. Yes would he be great to have, sure. But trading your second best starter, your closer and the other 2 to pay a guy top dollar for 2 years seems a stretch. Creating more holes then filling them. Unless he waves his opt out. Then that seems square.
It’s absolutely enough considering Arenado has an opt out after 2 years. What happens if the cardinals don’t make the playoffs in those 2 years or he sees a bigger payday from someone else… then the Cards are screwed because they gave up a huge package with multiple years of control for 2 seasons.
Not to mention, how much of his contract are the Cardinals picking up?? If they pick up more money, the package going back decreases. That’s how things work, it’s the nature of doing business in MLB
Lol @andywarpath…that is more than enough…Hudson has 5 years of control and was a top 100 prospect…Liberatore top100…O’Neill, until being ineligible was too 100…plus Martinez…is plenty and not going to happen unless you give up gray or take on salary…Arenados contract is market value…
Not much surplus value in those two years.. but in the later years you want to lock in he won’t have *any* surplus value because he won’t be as good and he will be making the same money.
And there is no indication the team wants to trade him, this whole thing is so silly. Donaldson is available at four years, fits in much better with the Cards m.o. than Arenado.
It would have to be Carpenter over Fowler. Fowler is still needed in the outfield, and Carpenter would have no place to play if he stayed while Arenado was brought in.
It would be carp because his no trade clause doesn’t kick in till 2020 season begins
Rendon better than arenado last few seasons?!?!? Has anyone been better than arenado at 3.
That was my thought. I was thinking equally as good. But I can’t say one is better than the other.
Chapman has been better than Arenado but no one else.
Chapman has the superior arm, but doesn’t have Arennado’s range. The dude makes plays no other third baseman can. Maybe ever.
Please get this done!!
Rockies get Dexter Fowler, Tyler O’Neil, Dakota Hudson, Alex Reyes
Cardinals Get Nolan Arenado
replace Fowler with Liberatore and you already have the deal the Cards have put on the table….
If you believe a Chicago-based media member that is a Cub homer, than ya. I’ll believe that offer when it starts getting reported by more credible sources
Strikefour doesn’t understand that Stan…he thinks it’s a real trade offer…I could see those four players in the discussion but all four together is ridiculous
So you’ve got Carpenter making $18.5M to ride the bench, while the starting outfield consists of Edman, Bader, and Lane? [sarcasm] Sure, let’s go with that. [/sarcasm]
This doesn’t necessarily mean anything. But baseballtradevalues says that Liberatore straight up is more than enough for Arenado.
That website also suggests that Austin Riley is worth almost double what Arenado is worth! I think we can both agree that neither of them is anywhere close to be enough for Arenado
You mean baseball trade values isn’t all the useful unless you have absolutely no idea what a major league baseball trade looks like? That’s shocking.
Contracts matter. He’s a great player, but Rendon just got a similar deal in free agency, with the acquiring team giving up no talent. That suggests that for a player of that caliber, for that amount of money, balances out. In other words, zero surplus trade value. Or, at least, not as much as you’d think.
Not close. They’d need to add someone like Gorman to even the deal out. Arenado offers appx 80m of surplus value. Liberatore, as a 55 prospect, projects to have 35m worth of surplus value according to FanGraphs.
They have Nolan at 27.7m surplus value. And even that is unusual for them as they tend to ding guys with big contracts. They also don’t give guys “hometown hero” bonuses.
You’re more or less right. I wasn’t thinking about the opt out.
Liberatore projects to have $35 million in surplus value over his career. Arenado projects to have that much next season.
Thats funny. You actually think that site means anything? What a joke.
I literally said “this doesn’t necessarily mean anything.” Learn to read troll.
The word “but” literally means what preceded it is untrue, “used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned.”
You also used necessarily in that sentence which presupposes that it does mean something to you. Try learning the english language.
I’m not here to argue semantics with you kid. I’m here to talk baseball. If you can’t deduce the intended meaning of other people’s comments then I just feel sorry for you.
Carlos Martinez, Gorman, O’Neill, Helsley or Reyes and carp to offset some salary? I’d hate to see them trade such an important part of the roto in Hudson. I’d also love to keep Liberatore if at all possible.
You aren’t getting Arenado without giving up something painful, cmon Cards fans, you know this deal by now.
If Carp or Fowler is in the deal then you are going to cry at the other names. No way no how do STL move a contract in this particular trade unless STL gives them reason enough.
Hudson, Liberatore, Martinez & O’Neill are already on the table, its only going to get worse for you from here.
I agree with you Strike Four
If those 4 names are seriously on the table then it is going to take more or it would have already been approved. The Rockies absolutely HAVE TO WIN this trade. It cant even be a win win for their fan base. It has to be a clear overpay.
The Rockies won’t be making a deal they have to have be the clear winner.. If that’s even a thing. Having a piss poor team and watching Arenado leave in 2 seasons is far worse than any bad deal they could make.
They have to collect talent. They’re absolutely abysmal in the free agent market. No big FA pitchers really want to go there. They have to develop from within. If they can grab some arms from STL’s system—that will be huge.
The Hudson rumor makes a lot of sense. He’s a sinker baller—that’s certainly preferable in the thin air. Colorado has a really thin system—especially on the mound. They don’t need to bend a team over. but they sure as hell do need to get some talent in their system. FA clearly didn’t work out for them.
But Hudson’s pitches might not break the same way because of the aforementioned thin air.
I see where you are coming from, but the cards won the division with their current team. Arenado is amazing but hes being paid like hes amazing. His contract is market value or even more and he can opt out in 2 years, that severely limits the value. To trade a starter and closer plus now your number 3 prospect and a power outfielder who can field, that’s a haul. Colorado would be stupid not to accept that and cardinals would be stupid to increase the offer. If they ask for anymore I’d walk away. Then arenado opts out in 2 years and leaves colorado anyway.
@mateodh made a good point. It might have made more sense to just outbid LAA for Rendon than to give up prospects in order to take Nolan’s contract. A contract that he can opt out of if he continues to mash.
And don’t try it with “But they would have had to give up a draft pick to sign Rendon.”
The guys I listed aren’t painful? C’mon bro that’s clearly a very solid package full of high profile minor league talent along with major league arms. Giving up that package AND taking on his entire salary would be absolutely insane for the cardinals to do so throwing carp in there for 2 years isn’t absurd.
@jkinser20
The problem with your offer is that it is all bats…the Rockies need pitchers. That is where Hudson and Liberatore come in.
If the Rockies are trading Arenado, why would they want guys in the majors right now with fewer years of control left? They’d be rebuilding right?
Lol once again strike four that trade package is not on the table…why do you spread that crap…a guy who writes in Chicago said it on the radio and that is it…it has been reported by no one else…other people have only repeated what Levine said on the radio…stop being a fool
he would rather play for the Dodgers, he grew there and he would not opt out playing in L.A.
Grew up in the bay area
Actually the OC
Uhhhhh…..Arenado > Ozuna
What? They don’t play the same position and STL could easily get both.
Agreed on the position issue, but the Cardinals couldn’t pay both of them even if Carpenter’s contract was taken as part of the return. They barely have enough left in the budget to resign Ozuna as it is.
If Carpenter is in the deal, then that package of Hudson, Liberatore, O’Neill and Martinez makes more sense. Rockies have a surplus of quality infield options, so I’m guessing he would be flipped or released.
Cardinals aren’t getting rid of a contract in this deal unless the 3-4 other pieces hurt fans feelings and that’s just facts. Gotta look at it from the Rockies perspective.
Gorman probably makes more sense than Martinez for both teams. The Cards would be giving up plenty with those 4 and taking on all that cash. The opt out shouldn’t be that much of a concern. Arenado has to OK the deal to come to St. Louis, doubtful he would then leave.
Even if the Rox get pitchers back, there’s no guarantee they will be effective in the mile high thin air (not to mention all that second hand toke).
All they have to do is be better than the opposing teams pitchers in the mile high thin air. It doesn’t have to be pretty, it just needs to be done.
The names that have been discussed going to Rockies are
Liberatore
Dakota Hudson and
Nolan Gorman
Too much for two years of any player.
Cubs fan be wrong…..do not believe Bruce Levine propaganda.
Was Morosi not Levine
No it was Levine on a radio show
When was Gorman discussed?? Hudson, O’Neill, C-Mart have been the names bandied about by multiple sources but nothing (At least until now) has ever talked about Gorman. If he is involved, then a package of Hudson, O’Neill and Gorman should be enough. Maybe adding Knizner as the Rox have a desperate need for a catcher.
Biggest thing in what package goes back is money and if Arenado will decline his opt out. Gorman won’t be part of any deal if the Cards could only have him for 2 years
Morosi said it has been discussed the names above
Although I’d LOVE to see Arenado in a Cardinals uniform, wouldn’t it be better to get a RH hitting 3B who can also play LF? Bryant fits the bill, and Cards have pitching depth the Cubs need. I know it’s unlikely because of the rivalry. Can Donaldson play LF? Carpenter isnt going anywhere, and what if he returns to form?
Unlikely they trade for Bryant is an understatement…
Ok Brett Cecil for Bryant. Done
Did anyone tell Arenado that St Louis is a boring town !
Obviously never been
Just a few points here…….
First, Arenado has to waive his No Trade clause…….
and Los Angeles sounds much better than St Louis…..
Fowler is not going back to his old team…….No Way !
Cardinals need to trade away the Farm to get Arenado…….
if Arenado does waive his No Trade clause, he will want more money (extension for sure)…..
finally……..I can see that Cardinals Fans still worry how Great the Cubs are than their team !
Arenado is at a market level contract, in order to get talent back, they Rockies will either need to take back a bad contract, or pay down the deal.
Compare it to the Stanton return.
Arenado has deep admiration for the Cards, it’s been mentioned several times and if you listen to MLB radio it’s been said there as well. The asking is a bit steep but still manageable. Quietly Fowler has said he would like out of St. Louis for a change of scenery. Lastly the Cubs are not better than the Cardinals, very comparable but definitely not better.
Stop right there. Cards Division Champions. The cubs 3rd place. Cards are already better than cubs.
St Louis does not offer good pizza…..
and they do not have Hollywood Hills….
but they do have dumpster burnings on the weekends !
St. Louis has great pizza, if you know where to go. They may not have Hollywood Hills, but they have “The Hill.” Dumpster fires are unknown to Red Bird fans, we leave those for other franchises.
Who cares what a city offers…only people with no argument start talking about cities…meaning they know nothing about baseball…every city has its good and bad things about it…most cardinals fans don’t live in St. Louis so who cares
True
Cubs will NEVER trade Bryant to the Cardinals.
Lol when was that even mentioned…go to sleep drunk cubs fan
it was mentioned above in another comment
Stupid Cardinals fan
Stupid cub fans
Would the Rockies be willing to trade Arenado within the division and take a chance of that coming back to bite them? I am not so sure about that. Arenado would get traded to the Rangers 1st before getting traded to the Dodgers. Those thinking he will not waive his no trade clause to go to St.Louis may want to think again.
if STL can pay Arenado, why didnt they push for Rendon more ? same $$ and you dont loose prospects
If the Rockies will take one of Fowler/Carpenter back in the trade, it frees up the money to have him in tow.
If the deal is something like, good prospect, mid level prospect, one of Fowler/Carpenter, and some money coming back from Colorado, then the Cards are better off.
Would the Cards rather give up Kniziner, O’Neill, and Hudson, along with one of Fowler/Carpenter, to get Arenado, and say $200M committed? Or pay Rendon $245M but with Fowler/Carpenter on the payroll another two years?
Exactly jfactor…
Maybe they did. And maybe rendon wasn’t interested.
@thebeaver13 he’s from Texas and the Cardinals have had a much better decade than LAA so I doubt Rendon would have left money on the table to sign with LAA over the Cards
cubs fans have been saying contreras and heyward would get it done lol. no matter if any team takes his whole salary or not, it is going to cost more than fowler and a top spec or heyward and contreras.
Before you get too excited … he hits .351 at home and .277 … while that’s not terrible , it’s a big difference. That likely lands somewhere around .290ish …. but his power numbers will dip some too. This makes him come down to earth some … which means they could probably of got Donaldson for 4 years and not lost anything. Just saying…. he will be a good addition but don’t expect his normal output
You can’t blame Coors alone for a 70 point difference in batting average.
Many more factors to consider.
Yes you can blame Coors. His career BA is 59 points lower. OPS is nearly .200 points lower on the road. Road numbers are not that great. Coors is the factor and the reason.
Donaldson is no where near the defender Arenado is.
Bader and Hudson ought to be enough to get that done. Hate the idea of this, but both of those guys would be good gets for Colorado.
Definately not gonna be for that package. Swap carlson for bader and now your getting closer.
Carlson won’t be in this, he has way more surplus value than Arenado alone. That contract is a liability, not an asset.
Cards fans are excited about the rumored package of Liberatore, CMart, Hudson, and O’Neill.
Your idea was probably Mo’s idea weeks ago..
No way that rumored deal exists in real life. That would put Cards so far over budget and eliminate 2 rotation spots. It makes the Cards worse immediately, and into the future. It was an impressive insult to realism.
If the Cards can actually make a deal work, it has to include one of Carpenter/Fowler to off-set the financials. The Cards can’t swing it otherwise. If the Rockies will take Fowler back in an Arenado trade, then they can also get good talent back as well. Otherwise, he doesn’t have that much surplus value, and the Cards can’t afford him any way.
That proposal was said on the radio by a Chicago guy, Levine. It holds no weight…
Cards giving up way too much if that’s the rumor. Cards fans excited about this deal have a death wish. Arenado doesn’t move the needle outside of Coors. He’s good. Not $30+ mil per year good.
Please tell me again how the Cardinals are a small market team needing competitive balancing picks in the draft?
Because their population dictates they are a small market.
The St. Louis market size is in the bottom 1/3rd of all MLB markets.
St. Louis is perennially 2nd only to the Dodgers in attendance. Not a small market team.
Attendance is not how you measure market size. It’s population of the area you play in. Not hard to understand. People don’t understand how much the STL area supports this team.
Lol, attendance has literally NOTHING to do with market size. The size of the community around your ballpark limits how much revenue you can generate. The St. Louis area is a fraction of the size of Chicago, New York, Boston, LA, etc.
This is not a difficult concept, it is nuts to me how many baseball fans on this site don’t understand what market size means.
Yeah, but market size doesn’t necessarily equate to competitive ability. Despite their small market size, the Cardinals draw 3M+ a year in attendance, run above-average payrolls, and have had only 1 losing season while winning 2 World Series and 4 NL Pennants over the last 20 years. So why does their market size alone qualify them for extra draft picks?
STL is not a small market team. They draw fans from about 8 surrounding states. KMOX is reaches millions of people outside the market area. The owner has PLENTY of money.
The idea behind it would be you can’t punish a team for being really good at what it does. They are given a handicap because of their location, kudos to them to being able to draw that many fans despite that.
Just because they are better at evaluating and drafting and then developing doesn’t make them any less of a small/medium market…
Dont see Hudson being a piece cards would trade and neither one rox would want as they arent close to competing especially if the deal arenado. Would think newly acquired matt liberatore, nolan gorman would be the starting point of talks as it gives rockies controllable assets going forward.
What will they do with Carpenter?
Again I wonder if the move to lf for Carpenter has legs
They’ve already shut that down, there was some comments from Cardinals FO a bit ago that the Carp to the outfield experiment is not being carried forward.
Ok. But if they have Arenado. They may change their mind. He has to be as passable as Ozuna was.
Ozuna was above average in the outfield based on pretty much every defensive metric there is. It doesn’t matter what he looks like while he plays defense, he’s better than the average left fielder at making plays out there.
I suppose he could just be a super bat off the bench and get a start once per week at either 1st or 3rd so arenado and goldy get 1 day off every 2 weeks. But thats still not that many at bats for a player that at least has the potential to bounce back with starting caliber numbers.
They’d have to make Carpenter part of the trade package, both because of his redundancy and because of his contract. The Cardinals can’t afford Arenado without dumping one of their other big contracts.
Not interested if Hudson is involved.
I still the rangers are in it and would offer solak,huff and couple more pitching prospects
Arenado is owed $230 million over the next 7 seasons if he does not opt out. Those would be his age 28-29 through 34-35 seasons. It is less than Rendon’s deal, but it isn’t chump change. So I just can’t see how the Cardinals would have to give up a boat load of prospects. I mean, how much surplus value is in that contract?
The key phrase there is “if he does not opt out”. The opt out lowers his surplus value by a huge number and unless the contract is restructured, that’s what the Cardinals should be trading for.
Don’t see it to much for the cards to give up.
And yet StL is a small market getting competitive balance picks yearly. They’d be owing over 60mil to 2players. Speaking of comp pick that would likely be a part of the trade.
6th in baseball payroll last season.
They were actually 10th in opening day payroll last year. I saw a list that had them sixth that did something funky with the injured reserve money.
Are the Rockies really expecting to shed all of the Aren Nolanado money and also receive significant assets? A lot of the proposals seem pretty steep.
Considering he is a top 5 player in the game…yes they are. If people don’t want to trade for him, then they can go sign someone comparable on the FA market. Except the last guy comparable, Manny Machado, signed for even more money AND isn’t currently available to sign. So either pay the Rockies price or go sign someone else several tiers down and finish 4th in your division..
Arenado’s comparable just signed one month ago for 7/$245 million without an opt out. There is also an older, but still viable option available that is nowhere close to “several tiers down” who could be signed for about 45% of Arenado’s contract.
Arenado is a great player, but his 7/$234 million contract with an opt out after 2 years is the market rate for a player of his caliber.
Then sign Donaldson if you think it is so easy.
That would put 3 darn good third baseman in the central with Suarez and Bryant
The Rox should fold their franchise if they accept O’neill, Hudson, C-Mart and Liberatore.
One platoon OF, a 5th starter with poor peripherals, a washed up starter who the Cards don’t even trust as closer and a prospect who was mediocre in ‘A’ ball last year.
If I’m the Rox I don’t trade Arenado to StL unless Carlson and Flaherty are coming back.
You do realize the amount of money owed to Arenado, correct?
Does StL want the guy or not?
Do the Rockies want to unload his salary or not?
He makes 1/4 of their 2020 payroll on a losing team.
That’s just a ridiculous thing to say…Hudson is not a number 5…Liberatore is highly touted by people who know a thing or two because they have seen a thing or two…and O’Neill just needs a chance…Martinez has his concerns but is still worth his contract
If the Rockies cared about that, they wouldn’t have given him that deal just one year ago.
If you like them that much, then why are you arguing them in a trade?
Yes, give O’Neill a full season on 550 at bats so we can watch him K 200 times.
Lol. That would never happen. Story and Arenado and Dahl probably wouldn’t get you flaherty. Contracts aside.
No need to counter one hyperbolic statement with another. If they were being paid the same, Arenado by himself holds greater value than Flaherty. But they aren’t. So you are correct, the idea of Carlson and Flaherty is not happening. Arenado for Flaherty or Carlson alone…also not happening. Unless cash is coming back to the Cardinals.
The Rockies are only trading him if they can get a ton in return. Nothing less.
If you want to only look at this as a 2 year deal ok… let’s see.
He isnt paid much more over the next 2 years then Lindor or Bryant. Both wich have 2 years of very high arb. Maybe what 7-9 million difference, not a ton over two years.
So the rockies are going to want a return similar to what those clubs would want.
So think of the value like… lux, May’s ++. With no money in return.
Either accept that or accept the fact you will not be getting him. May seem like a lot and that’s why these deals rarely happen.
Anything else is just being naive.
You have to account for the $164M owed to him after these next two years, where he is going to be paid $70M. Not 7-9M more than Bryant/Lindor. It’s $30M the next two years.
Arenado’s contract is not an asset, and in the MLB you trade for the contract and for the talent.
Would lindor be worth more if he was 7 years 220 or 2 years 45?
That’s not the comparable. Arenado is either 2/$70M or 7/$234M. And the opt-out has a value to Arenado. Lindor is neither of these things.
Lindor is a 6 win player (so is Arenado), but that’s the end of their comparisons.
Not true at all. The Cardinals have to build in both possibilities into their offer. Meaning they have to weigh the chances of it only being a 2 year deal with surplus value or a 7 year deal with likely negative value. Therefore the Cardinals offer
Therefore the Cardinals offer has to be somewhere between the 2 potential offers of the 2 year and 7 year possibilities because they don’t know what will happen. However, I don’t believe for a second that the Cardinals make any trade unless Arenado agrees to waive the opt out. As such, his contract should be treated like the full contract. The Rockies need to lobby hard as if it would be a 2 year contract with surplus value to get the best offer they can from the Cardinals or any other team.
If that is the Rockies form position, then there will be no trade.
firm*
Good.
Even this trade out COL trades Wade Davis & Nolan Arenado to STL for, Liberatore, Reyes, O’Neill, Edman, and Knizner? I dont want to trade edman but this will have to hurt. Especially if he waves the opt out.
Carlson, liberator, + +.
That’s about what it would take.
I’m sure most will either disagree or say way to much. This is the reality unless Colorado is seriously motivated to deal him and nothing says they are. Then they are going to want and need a huge return.
This is not the reality. Now that teams have analytics to assess things like surplus value and expected production moving forward, there isn’t a team on the planet that would be stupid enough to make an offer like that. This is so one-sided in Colorado’s favor that it’s absurd.
I agree and that’s why these trades only happen if one team is either desperate to get a player or another team is desperate to move a contract.
Neither seem to be in play here unless the Rockies are wanting to move that contract more then they seem.
I think they are motivated. I think that contract scares the he’ll out of them.
A trade with the Cardinals has to include one of Carpenter/Fowler who also have their own NTC’s. The Cards don’t have the necessary money to off-load otherwise. Maybe C-Mart, but if it’s C-Mart instead, then the Rockies have to kick in a good amount of money to help.
The Levine rumored deal is so far off though. The Cards would be significantly over budget, and would have to start Lane Thomas in the outfield and Wainwright and Kim are the rotations 3 and 4 and we don’t know who the 5th is.
It also would put the Cardinals into the luxury tax.
Let’s try more realistic offers.
If the Rockies can take back Fowler, and he will waive his NTC. And the Rockies will kick in some money if Arenado doesn’t opt-out. Then a deal sending good talent back to the Rockies can exist because it makes Arenado both a talented player, and a high value player in terms of compensation. Otherwise, he’s a market value player who can opt-out in 2 years at a position they have 2 players at and they wouldn’t give up any talent for him.
The Rockies will essentially need to buy their prospects in terms of how far they can pay down the deal in terms of accepting bad contracts or paying the Cards to pay Arenado.
But level heads can prevail to make a deal work that makes Arenado a good value, and gives the Rockies the young talent that they want.
Before Liberatore, I thought a trade of
Arenado+$30, paid in $10M installments in 22, 23, and 24
For
Gorman, Fowler, Thompson, and Knizner.
If Fowler won’t waive his NTC, you can ask Carpenter, but I don’t think he’d waive his. If neither will, then the deal needs a new direction likely involving C-Mart, and more cash from the Rockies. But then it gets really challenging to structure a deal the Cards can both afford and the Rockies would like.
Holy Cow…Jrmomo1000 is right…Carps no trade doesn’t kick in till the beginning of the season…that’s a game changer…so Carp, Liberatore, O’Neill maybe another low guy like the catcher we got from the Rays
I don’t think the Cards trade O’Neill. They actually need him after trading Martinez, Arozarena, and Garcia.
No they don’t…they have Bader, Thomas, Edman …and Carlson when they can bring him up to avoid time manipulation
Those three guys (besides Bader) have a combined 350 MLB ABs between them. If Carp goes Edman is presumably at 3B. So then you are relying on Thomas and whoever until Carlson comes up (which is not guaranteed).
If Fowler or Carp is traded, I doubt O’Neill goes.
Wouldn’t Arenado be the 3B? Also, if Carp is included Fowler would still be in the OF.
Isn’t Knizner your C of the future with Carson Kelly gone? It would seem to make sense to try and trade from one of your positions of prospect surplus.
The cardinals also have Herrera, who is turning heads but only 19…plus they got a young catcher in the Rays deal along with Libertore
The Rockies are not taking Fowler under any circumstances. The split between them before had a lot of hard feelings on both sides. Fowler will never wear a Rockies uniform again. Especially since Fowler has to OK a deal.
Carpenter no trade does not start till opening day
And he’s not going to opt out, because he’s on a sweetheart deal that’s paying him more AAV than both Harper and Machado. Teams are getting this guy for 7 years so their going to pay top tier in return., not the laughable spare parts the fans here are talking about.
Your comment saying he won’t opt out because it’s a “sweetheart deal” indicates that you understand Arenado is being paid more than he could earn in the marketplace. That right there tells you he doesn’t have surplus value with his current contract, even if you refuse to believe it.
What about Liberatore, Gorman, O’Neill, and Carpenter and Cardinals take on all Arenado’s salary?
Probably more like Gorman, Carpenter/Fowler, and two pitching prospects not named Liberatore.
I think one of Gorman or Liberatore goes but the return beyond that is not going to be major pieces. And to get there (Gorman or Liberatore) the Rockies have to take on a bad contract or pay cash to the Cards.
Cardinals are just trying to be ahead of the Reds and be on the tail of the Cubs for first place in 2020………
I think this is just fantasy rumor talk for Cardinals Convention !
You HAVE to be a Cubs fan based on your illogical posting in this thread.
Cubs Convention is a three day major fan interactive event at a major downtown hotel…….
Cardinals convention is a three hour conversation at a local Busch Stadium bar by a dozen fans…….
Brewers convention is a three minutes of several fans meeting at a street corner…..
Pirates convention is two fans mumbling & swearing as they pass each other on the street….
Reds convention is Pete Rose taking bets for future games over the phone. from fans.
I heard about this yesterday on Incarcerated Bob’s Twitter. Seems like he knows this stuff way before these “baseball writers” more often than not.
Wow Goldschmidt and Arenando on the same team. DAMN
“Reportedly engaged in preliminary” trade talks is the equivalent of saying one’s planning their wedding now that they’ve downloaded Tinder.
That’s pretty damn funny.
If the Cardinals gets Arenado, cvbs fans can just forget contending for the next seven years. Especially if they move Bryant. You know Theo does a terrible job getting value in trades.
The weird thing is that about 8 years ago, Cardinals fans were absolutely convinced they were getting Troy Tulowitzki from the Rockies too. Carlos Martinez was part of that 4 person rumored offer as well.
Life is just a circle.
It was Matt Holliday oft rumored to the Cards before that. Carlos Gonzalez for years as well. And of course, the Larry Walker trade. Who did the Cards give up in that one?
STL does love to covet Colorado Bats.
Cardinals fans are really just like Yankees and Dodgers and Red Sox fans. They view every other mid market team as their AAAA team. At the very least they aren’t as arrogant as most Yankees fans or as annoying as most Red Sox fans or simply unlikable as most Dodger fans.
No way Cardinals are taking on his salary without unloading Fowler or carp. Fowler used to play there that would open up room for o’niell.i don’t think they are ready to put Carson in quite yet . My offer would be Fowler ,knizer, Hudson,. Only because that how this article started and Montero or if Gorman is added we need something back. This trade is definitely workable. But not without Colorado taking on money or carp or Fowler or Martinez. This is like the lotta so many different combos but definitely can happen
Shedding Martinez’s contract? Are you high. They are not looking to shed his money bro. He has performed well for us and shouldn’t be mentioned with Carp and Fowler
In ’22 and ’23 CMart has two club options for $17 million and $18 million. Up from $11.5 million in .20 and ’21.
Essentially 2 years/$23 million for a career 3.36 ERA SP/RP/CL
Good trade value. Durability is a concern. Insurance exists.
If options are exercised, he can be had for 4 years/$58 million. That’s $14.5 million AAV. I expect there will be some interest there.
I reviewed my trade proposal. This is for the 2 years nothing gauranteed after . Carp,Hudson and gorman and knizer
All these Cardnials fans saying Rockies have to take Carp or Dex or send money to make a trade work
..no thats not how all trades need to work.
They have a top 5 MLB player, they DON’T have to trade him for any reason… And they won’t unless they come out of any trade with the clear win.. So yea your graphs and figures and logics go out the window.. If you want this top 5 player you’ll be paying for it with a package of young talent and paying Arenados bill for at least 2 years… And yes you’ll be keeping Dex and Carp… Rockies aren’t out here looking for a fair trade and to help you out with the salary difference , but good luck with that
They keep losing and the owners don’t want to pay his huge salary I bet they will take a fair trade instead of holding onto him just to pay his large salary on a non competing team. The owners still want to make profits, and trading him now saves them more money then holding onto him. They are going to trade him and take the best package they can get. The writing is on the wall. Cards or not hes getting traded
Seems like they did 1 year ago when they gave him the extension lol but Yea I bet in 12 months they completely changed their mind about the guy..
If you think minimal returns are gonna land all star players then explain why Bryant, Mookie, Lindor, Arenado haven’t already been traded lol
The biggest difference between the players you mentioned are Bryant, Mookie and Lindor are all on short term contracts and play for possible contenders. Each of their teams won at least 84 games last year and project to win 88+ this year. Arenado is on a team that won 71 last year and is projected to win 75-76 this year.
With Arenado’s current salary eating up about 25% of the projected payroll for a 75 win team, it might be time to try and move him before he loses value to injury or decline and they are burdened with his enormous contract for the majority of this decade.
Yea i get it… What a majority of Cards fans don’t get is they arent trading him for a bag of peanuts and to take a bad contract back(carp/Dex) , if they take back a bad contract that defeats the purpose of trading him, if they dont get prime PROSPECTS back it also,,,,defeats the purpose of trading him … What sense does it make to take Carps bad contract and a decent pitcher (Hudson) or 1 prospect being prospects are a gamble or Tyler Oneil who is either under performing or a bust, or cmart who is a bust …. THE ENTIRE REASON FOR THE POST I MADE… Logically its gonna cost 3-4 players that are prime prospects or young with good upside , and Rockies aren’t sending money or taking a bad contract to shed money owed to a all star
Trades are done to benefit both sides. It isn’t for one to pillage the other.
Is that so… And getting Arenado isn’t a benefit??
Of course it is. However, your attitude and comments gives off this idea that the Cardinals will and should give up Carlson, Gorman, and Liberatore (their top 3 prospects) plus who knows what else and pay the full amount of the salary of Arenado.
It doesn`t work that way. You trade contracts, surplus values, and negative values, etc.
Aside from that, none of those players help the Rockies in 2020. They want MLB ready players such as in CF and perhaps C (because they are barren there in their system). The Cardinals have the pieces they need, many of which are from the MLB 40 man roster.
Never said anything about Carlson or Gorman … But people think its a given that Rockies are taking bad contracts or sending money are gonna be heart broken when that doesn’t happen … Rockies aren’t being pressed to trade Nolan so they will have to be blown away… You dont think there’s 10+ other teams out there that wouldn’t give up a couple of ok PROSPECTS and some bad contract for Arenado lol just about any team would, so if it’s coming down to Cardnials wanting them to take Carp with 1 ok prospect and a ok player , why wouldn’t Yankees make the same lame offer to get him, or dodgers, twins, rangers, braves, nats, Phillies, mets….. This is a top 5 overall mlb player, not some good guy that coming from a team that is horrible and needing to shed money … So your trading values, trading contracts views are thrown out of this one … Its not Sterling Marte we are talking about, it’s more like a Chris sale type youre looking at
234 million reasons.
It’s impossible to know how much the Cardinals value Arenado. But one reason there is speculation that Carp/Fowler would be part of the deal is that the Cardinals have never spent what would be required if they traded for Arenado without shedding some salary. It doesn’t seem feasible from a payroll perspective. Again, lots of speculation. No one knows anything.
That’s how it works if the acquiring team otherwise can’t afford the guy. The Cardinals have to dump salary in order for this to work at all.
Why is everyone thinking they are getting a massive haul for Arenado. It’s just not happening. Carlson and Gorman should t even be discussed. Arenado is at a market level contract so for them to get a haul back they would have to pay quite a bit of his salary. People don’t realize how baseball trades work with comparison to salary. End of discussion.
Shouldn’t
How can Arenado have a “market level contract” if he’s never tested the market? He signed an extension. At least half of the league would want to talk to him about the next ten years of his career if given the chance. He’s definitely mega-contract material.
Why would the Rockies trade a generational defender with a middle of the order bat for anything less than a generous haul of prospects and controllable big leaguers talent?
There are 29 other teams out there. If we’re not offering top prospects for an MVP, they are hanging up the phone.
The Stanton trade is one comp. The Marlins’ situation was unique, though.
Arenado has a mega-contract. Rendon just showed us that an elite 3B on the open market was worth 7/$245 without an opt out. That is right in line with Arenado’s 7/$234 with an opt out after 2 years.
Two years ago, Stanton was 27 and coming off an MVP season that saw him lead MLB with 59 HRs. He had a long term contract with an AAV of $29 million. The Marlins had to include $30 million in cash and take Starlin Castro back in trade to receive a borderline top 100 pitcher and a 17 year old glove first MIF in rookie ball. The Cardinals would be crazy to send over multiple high level prospects and take on Arenado’s full contract when they could have just signed Rendon a month ago or still go after Donaldson today.
Thank you to someone that actually understands something
This really is the only comment needed on this article. 100% nailed it. Rockies are not in full-blown rebuild, so I think they will get more than the Marlins did, but this is the comp to look at. Even better might be what the Marlins agreed to take from the Cardinals for Stanton before he vetoed.
In comparison to Rendon he definitely has a market level contract…
I dont think this deal gets done unless Carp gets move and I doubt the Rockies want Carp. I think I a third team(probably and AL in need of a DH) needs to be involved.
Why wouldn’t the Rockies want Carpenter? He couldn’t be a better fit.
Carp is actually a good 3B. He doesn’t have a cannon for an arm but he does everything else well.
If they’d want him great.
Arenado for Carp, Knizer, Hudson?
He is owed 40 million dollars over the next two seasons (age 34-35) He is a defensive liability and and had an OPS + of 91 last year. There is a reason the cardinals want to trade for a third baseman
And your just gonna ignore his years like 2018 and only focus on the one awful one? Not saying you shouldn’t be worried but he has shown that he can be great
I am not really ignoring his 2018 I am pointing out that he’s old, making lots of money and stinks at defense. His offense last year was well below league average. I am Arguing why the Rockies wouldn’t want him or the cardinals or any team. FYI he also has a no trade clause.
Not only does Carp make sense from a player/position standpoint but he also makes sense from a contract standpoint.
Rockies would get immediate on field value and practically two years of Carpenter for what it would cost them for one year of NA. By itself its not an even swap obviously, so the Cardinals would have to include some other mlb/prospect pieces. So Carpenter surely makes sense for the Rockies right now if they are intent on saving salary (30MM over two years), getting back a player who can immediately step in to the position of the player they trade away, as well as other pieces making an immediate and future impact.
If STL had Arenado and we were a 60-70 win team, I’d want STL to make some moves that capitalize on the present and future value of Arenado to make STL big picture better, no question. Would anyone rather have their ‘face of the franchise’ handcuff their team (whether you believe ownership or not about any reported ‘salary restrictions’) from getting better?
Any combo of who’s been reportedly discussed makes the Rockies better immediately and in the future. It’s a fine line, but even if STL overreaches from a surplus without sacrificing the future, so be it, it’ll be a win win for both teams.
I’d trade Carpenter and an IMO’s pizza franchise for Arenado. Strait up.
Are you sure Cardinals fans Dakota is all that? Low strikeout totals, high walk
rates, high FIP. Maybe he isn’t all that. He is tall though.
6’5″…..
Not all pitchers are strikeout pitchers. He pitches to contact which would make sense why his strikeout totals are low and why he has a higher FIP. Maybe you don’t know what your talking about. You are dumb though…
If Arenado wants to contend he’ll have to wait until he can opt out or wave the opt out clause to facilitate a trade.
Any Arenado deal would require the Rockies to take Carpenter’s contract in return. That’s the only way this could even begin to work. Meanwhile, even if the Cardinals did get Arenado, there’d still be a gaping hole in LF and no money left to adequately fill it. They’d have to bet that the young guys like Edman, Bader, O’Neill etc. could handle both LF and CF, which is not a promising position for a contender.
The young guns can do it they showed it the past 2 seasons.
No, they haven’t. Bader’s bat declined greatly last year, O’Neill has too much trouble getting on base and avoiding strikeouts, Lane barely has any MLB experience, and Edman is still mostly unproven after just a half season of excellence, and who knows what Carlson will provide or when he’ll be ready. They need another established outfielder to go with Fowler while the other guys compete for just one spot.
“They need another established outfielder to go with Fowler while the other guys compete for just one spot.”
Bader was better than Fowler last year, even with his bat declining severely. Not a better hitter, but a better overall player. Fowler is the one who is actually the greatest liability of the two, not Bader.
They don’t need another old, expensive outfielder. They need to play at least one of their young OF (besides Bader – they already know he is a below average hitter with elite defense -which deserves a starting role) everyday to see what they offer.
You do realize they have the money to pay Arenado and resign Ozuna right?
I would trade
Carpenter- Fowler -Hudson -Carlos Martinez. For Nolan
There not taking Fowler and Carp
The idea of Gold Glove winners Goldschmidt, Wong, Arenado, Molina sounds great. Add in future Gold Glove Bader, Flaherty, and DeJong. Best defense in majors.
RJY, seriously? Molina’s gold glove days are behind him. Flaherty pitches 32 out of 162 games. Bader won’t hit enough to stay in the lineup to warrant GG awards. Arenado isn’t coming here. Goldschmidt’s GG days are likely behind him too. Wong is completely over rated, and a smart front office likely won’t keep him after 2020 with a salary of $12.5M. This team better start hitting because the defense is not going to hold up as it sits now.. Besides, the NLCS should have shown this club what needs to be fixed and what is important. Score some freaking runs.
Regardless of your doubts, it still would be the best defense in the league. I could see every position aside from RF and LF being a GG finalist next year.
All this is, is st Louis ownership giving fans lip service. They have no chance to get arenado. His salary alone puts them over the 208 million and he’s only locked in for 2 years when it’s almost certain, like 99%, he opts out. So he’s owed 70 million.
Only way it works is if rox take on St. Louis salary in terms of Carpenter or Fowler. So for rox to do that- they not spend 70 million for a guy worth every cent to spend 30 or 50 mil on a player who’s worthless. That will cost St Louis their top 3 prospects and maybe Hudson which St. Louis will not do and frankly I wouldn’t do it either if I’m Colorado.
Yet the fanatics are rising high again over fake news
Keep Edman at 3rd and go after Mookie Betts instead.
Cards- Flaherty is not in trade package
Rockies- click
Mo- hello? hello?
If the Cardinals Owners are “Seriously going after Nolan Arenaldo”, that would be an extremely positive move toward reaching for another World Series!!! That would be the message sent to Cardinal Nation!!! However—-Too Cardinal Nation—- they’ve seen the Cardinals Owner perform this same act on many many All Star quality players before. Only to “intentionally come up Short” of locking down any Young All Star players in the prime of their careers. Hopefully this isn’t the same old false media blitz the Cardinals Owners set forth—-Every time they become unpopular with wit the Cardinal Nation because of either Stupid Contracts to washed up players. Mainly because they don’t ever take the aggressive steps to obtain above average players, either at the trading deadlines or during the winter off season. While Nolan Arenaldo would make the Cardinals immediately, not only a serious playoff team, but a Serious NLPennant Contenders!!!! Cardinal Fans & their own players are numb to any “possibilities” of obtaining young impact players by the St. Louis Cardinals Owners and Front Office media blitz that “Oh— We’re reall trying!” The bottom line is —- This is another Owners & Front Office hoax!!! It happens every year around the time season tickets go on sale. When an Adequate amount of season tickets are sold, the Owners will always send John Mozeliak to a news conference stating the Rookies were just wanting “Too Much” for Arenaldo” and that the Cardinals are currently happy with the team they currently have. Dang I hope and wish I’m wrong on this one!!!!!
They literally just traded for Goldschmidt a year ago. Lol
Stan Lee…..You are absolutely Correct. Are you saying Goldschmidt is in his prime playing years? Thought not. That’s how the Cards got Goldschmidt for some relatively unproven mlb players. I do believe Goldy is going to have better years ahead of him, but Arenaldo won’t be that cheap..
Unfortunately, Goldschmidt played in a hitter’s park during his prime. Now that he’s into his thirties and playing in a more pitcher friendly park, the likelihood of him getting back to his .900+ OPS seasons is not reasonable. He was .821 last year and projections this year are highly optimistic at .871. Until there is some kind of protection around him, he will just be a very nice player and not likely a superstar..
Everything you said makes sense…except for the inconvenient fact that STL secured the largest trades in the league in each of the last two off-seasons (Stanton and Goldschmidt). Obviously Stanton vetoed the trade, but they still had it in place. I don’t understand those who say their front office is all talk. What front office has done more on high-profile trades in the last couple of years?
Don’t get too excited…Cardinals are notorious for “doing preliminary talks,” so they can come back and say, “we tried, but didn’t want to pay what it would cost because…”. I hope I’m wrong this time.
Yeah. Hope they prove us wrong this time
If this happens, it *SHOULD* put the nail in the Bridich coffin, but then again a move of this magnitude wouldn’t be pulled off without Monfort signing off on it in the first place.
The fact that it is even being discussed out there in rumor land, because of the payroll crunch the Rockies are in due to The Ian Desmond Contract as well as a handful of awful reliever signings, should have already gotten him canned.
Did I mention the bottom-5 or so farm system as well? That, too.
If aredondo cared about winning he should have never signed with colorado just greed hopefully hes stuck their when hes opt out chance comes he well still stay their if he feels hes not getting a better deal. Am sick and tired of players complaining when they choose to sign just for money.
This comment is an English teacher’s worst nightmare.
The Rockies made the playoffs in 2017 and 2018, and nearly won the NL West in 2018. It’s not like they were a bottom-feeder at the time he signed.
I pray the Cardinals don’t make the trade. Even without sending the pitching back the other way, I wouldn’t want to spend $32 million on a guy who hit .265 away from home and bring him to one of the most pitcher friendly parks in the league.
people say his stats won’t be as good outside of Colorado but playing at wrigley cincy and Milwaukee all year will def help his numbers.