February 7: The trade is expected to become official today, USA Today’s Bob Nightengale tweets, citing sources from multiple teams involved in the deal. Completion of the Betts blockbuster would serve as a precursor for the finalization of the Dodgers’ Pederson/Stripling trade with the Angels as well.
It’s not yet clear what type of alterations, if any, will be made to the deal. Heyman tweeted earlier this morning that the Red Sox have been seeking an additional top prospect from the Twins, although it’s difficult to envision the Twins parting with another highly regarded talent without additional pieces being sent their way.
February 6, 8:27PM: “Some involved [in the trade] are now suggesting it’s not a certainty,” MLB Network’s Jon Heyman tweets, as the holdup continues to center around the Red Sox, Twins, and Graterol’s condition. Boston is reportedly trying to “reconfigure” its end of the deal with the Twins, “meaning more than Graterol” would head from Minnesota to Fenway Park.
1:03 AM: There’s only a “slim” chance this trade will completely fall apart, per Jeff Passan of ESPN. The delay “is a problem but one we can figure out,” a source involved in the trade told Passan.
February 5: It has been more than 24 hours since the Mookie Betts trade was first reported, but the potential blockbuster featuring the Red Sox, Dodgers and Twins still hasn’t been finalized as we head into Thursday. There’s still confidence the deal will be completed, but there may end up being more pieces involved in the trade, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reports (subscription link).
The Red Sox are slated to send Betts and left-hander David Price (and approximately half of the remaining $96MM on his contract) to the Dodgers. In return, the Red Sox are set to get outfielder Alex Verdugo from LA and righty Brusdar Graterol from Minnesota. The Twins are in line to receive righty Kenta Maeda from the Dodgers.
Despite missing the final couple of months of last season with back/oblique/core problems, Verdugo has already been medically cleared, according to Rosenthal. However, Rosenthal writes that the Red Sox do have some concerns over the hard-throwing Graterol, whom they now regard as more of a reliever than a starter after looking at his medical records. Notably, Graterol’s a past Tommy John surgery patient who has also dealt with other injuries. The 21-year-old missed two months last season with shoulder issues that limited him to a combined 70 2/3 innings at four different levels (including 9 2/3 in the bigs).
While it still seems that Boston will acquire Graterol if the trade does occur, Rosenthal notes the club may also require another player and/or cash considerations from either the Dodgers or Twins to push it over the goal line. Assuming the three teams are able to reach some sort of compromise on what would go down as one of the most significant trades in recent history, it should open the door for yet another high-profile swap involving the Dodgers. They’re working to move outfielder Joc Pederson and hurler Ross Stripling as part of a deal with the Angels, but that’s delayed as the Dodgers await word on the Betts deal.
The Dodgers trade with the Angel’s seems one sided in the Angel’s favor. Am I missing something!!??
How about the fact that most of the deal is still unknown?
It’s a salary dump to stay under the lux tax while absorbing Mookie and Price
You cannot justifiably say that when 1 or prospects going both ways are still unknown and the pitcher going from LAD to LAA is also unknown
You’re just screaming your opinion based on partially, possibly try information… as if it’s fact
Understand the salary dump but surprised the trade included Stripling. So Dodgers traded Joc Stripling and another prospect for a potential utility infielder and unnamed prospect(s)?
Regnifo is definitely not a utility infielder. He was a 22 year old rookie with his 1st taste of the big leagues. Hes athletic, has damn good defense, and has shown gap to gap power. I envision him as a younger version of the 2017-2018 Didi Gregorious with better on base skills. He had 40 walks last year so he’s shown the ability to take a walk. He does need to work on reducing his strikeouts though, but he is actually an intriguing player with alot of upside.
.977 fielding percentage at 2b doesn’t sound all that good…….
You judge players based on fielding percentage? no one uses fielding percentage anymore. We know pretty much exactly how good he was last year.
He was two outs better than average. Search Outs Above Average Statcast.
Vlad Jr. had a very low .900 FP; he must be a bust…
Forget saberstats. Use your eyes.
Use your eyes? I’d rather use data.
By observation, a human being can’t tell the difference between a 275 hitter and a 300 hitter.
Yea I hate watching the games too. A computer program could easily spit out game results and save me 3 hours.
It’s only one year for Pederson too so if you’re undervaluing the return on Mookie for that reason, you have to do the same with him. As for the trades, the delay now is why medical clearance should be done before announcing things.
The trade wasn’t announced by MLB, same with the Angels trade.
Isn’t his arbitration case pending as well?
I agree 100% Jorge. There has to be some decent prospects coming back from Anaheim in the deal. At first it was just Joc for the utility IF, but when I saw Stripling added along with a decent 19 year old Dodgers prospect. there has to be much more coming over from Anaheim.
Yup. One of the more interesting things about this trade is how it seems to be contingent on the deal with the Red Sox and Twins being completed. It is effectively a four-team trade.
Don’t forget, the Dodgers got fleeced by the Angels when they got one year of Howie Kendrick for almost 6 years of Andrew Heaney.
What has Heaney done? Had Howie left as a free agent and got the Dodgers a comp pick in the loaded 16′ draft the Dodgers win that trade easy.
Andrew Heaney is good, but angels can’t keep pitchers healthy enough to see if he can be more than that
“Fleeced.” That is a generous word to describe a pitcher who now has to recover from a 2nd TJ Surgery and an ERA above 4.0 in his time with the Angels.
@neurogame Geez, Eeyore, if you’re going to be all doom-and-gloom, at least get the facts on your side.
Heaney has had one TJ, not two. The orthopedist recommended non-surgical treatment first with PRP, which didn’t work. It was at that time he had his (one and only) TJ surgery.
The Dodgers had Kendrick for one season, signed him as a free agent and had him for one more season before trading him. In his two seasons with the Dodgers, Kendrick cost them 4x as much as Heaney’s total earnings to date, while Heaney has provided 3x the WAR, even with his lost season and a half with treatment for the UCL injury.
So, yes: “Fleeced” would be a very good term.
Kewl… Fleeced?
The trade cost the Angels a 2015 playoff birth. Neither team had a second baseman, the Angels rolled the dice and so far have lost.
The Dodgers needed a second baseman and got one. It’s also difficult to compare WAR because the Dodgers didn’t use Kendrick as a full time second baseman.
Here are more facts. The trade cost the Angels a playoff birth and the Dodgers did not use Kendrick as a full time second baseman, drastically reducing the value of his WAR.
The second year Kendrick was in LA, the Dodgers seldom used him as a second baseman which made his WAR practically meaningless.
@ GeoKaplan
Again Winnie,
“Fleeced” is generous. Here are some example of what is on the level of being fleeced:
> The White Sox trading Fernando Tatis Jr. for James Shields
> The Astros trading Josh Fields to the Dodgers for Rookie of the Year Yordon ALvarez, although at the time, Alvarez had not played one minor league game in a Dodger uniform.
> Arizona trades Dansby Swanson & Ender Inciarte to Atlanta for Shelby Miller
> The Mariners trading Chris Taylor to the Dodgers for Zach Lee
It doesn’t feel right putting Heaney on the radar as any of the above. He’s had 5 years with the Angels but two productive seasons.
So, I get that Kendrick’s time with the Dodgers didn’t end harmoniously, but they needed a reliable 2nd baseman that year (2015) who could also be a steady bat in the lineup. Heaney’s had two good years, interjected by years of injuries and rehab. His elbow appears to be slowly ticking away.
The only year the Dodgers may have found value with him was 2018 when he was able to start 30 games.
Not if you ask Tigers fans – they still believe Boyd is a frontline starter
You forgot eloy jiminez for quintana tgat is gonna be as bad as shields tatis
You forgot eloy jiminez for quintana tgat is gonna be as bad as shields tatis
Shields had a -0.1 WAR in the 3 seasons after the trade and Tatis had a 4.2 WAR in his first season.
Quintana had a 4.6 WAR in the 3 seasons since that trade. Jimenez had a 1.4 WAR in his first season.
It will be interesting to see how those trades work out in the long run, but at this point the Shields/Tatis trade was much worse.
We are talking about teams getting fleeced in trades and nobody has brought up Archer to the Pirates for Glasnow and Meadows?
And finally here is even more facts.
Heaney with the Angels has a 3.8 bWAR and STILL counting till 2022
Kendrick? 1.5 bWAR
Fleeced is the appropriate word and saying that WAR doesnt apply is kind of a cop out. We always look at bottom lines
rez,
When the Dodgers didn’t use Kendrick as a second baseman, WAR is meaningless.
The trade cost the Angels a post season birth. I find it impossible to believe anyone thinks the Angels fleeced the Dodgers.
Fleeced is absolutely the wrong word. So far the Angels are down one playoff entry. They have yet to recoup their investment.
Not to mention, had the Dodgers kept Kendrick, they would have gone to the World Series last year. He wasn’t exactly expensive.
Nice facts, but here’s some others. In five years, Heaney has averaged 81 innings, made more than 18 starts once, and put up a 4.34 ERA.
The dude going back to the Dodgers is pretty well regarded. He was going to be the centerpiece of the Angels trade for Kluber, and its being speculated he is a possible replacement for when Kiké/ct3 hit free agency. He also has options, which helps the Dodgers roster crunch, as well as clears payroll to get LAD under the tax which is a big help when they want to resign Betts after this season.
Good info but still waiting on Angel prospects coming to Dodgers because of inclusion of Stripling and Dodger prospect.
Andy Pages.
Rengifo was not a top prospect and didn’t make the Rays top 30 at the time of the trade. He was slated for AAA for the Angels this season.
The Angels must be sending Brandon Marsh or Jeremiah Jackson to the Dodgers. Luis Rengifo will turn into a nice player, but the Dodgers should get one or two decent prospects back, especially after throwing in Andy Pages.
Reports have already surfaced it’s not either of those guys.
It’s not one in the top 6-7 prospects. We don’t know who it is yet, but we know its not Adell, Marsh, Adams, Jones, Jackson, Sandoval, or Knowles.
I wish my Royals would of made the deal Pederson and Stripling for Merrifield
Think about what the other team would want, not just your favorite team. one year of Joc is pointless to the Royals.
Why would the Royals want Joc Pederson?
Jorge78, The Angels didn’t want Pederson at his salary. He had negative value to both teams. Much more negative value to the Dodgers than Angels.
My guess is the the Dodgers will get two of the Angel top ten prospects for the Dodgers 29th best prospect and Stripling, who doesn’t have a lot of value to the Dodgers but has a tremendous amount of value to the Angels.
The Dodgers get under the Threshold, The Angels get a pitcher that the Dodgers couldn’t get into their rotation and take Pederson off their hands.
Talent wise, the Angels kill that trade. But teams don’t trade players, they trade contracts.
“Talent wise, the Angels kill that trade. But teams don’t trade players, they trade contracts.”
Man, that was good. Please not that goes into my folder of quotes I will pretend to have invented.
You’re saying Joc has NEGATIVE value? He’s projected for 2.8 WAR in 20 and has been worth 5.7 WAR over the past 2 seasons. His projected arbitration is 8.5 but he’ll be worth about 25.
You are right that stripling is worth more to the angels as they have more innings to offer him, but never discount the value of depth.
Yes, he has negative value. He’s not worth his contract to the Dodgers or the Angels. If the Dodgers don’t get Betts, then he might be worth his contract to the Dodgers. But I doubt they’d pay a LH platoon RF 8.5 million on the open market. Few if any teams would.
Joc Pederson is not worth 25 million dollars for a single season. And no team pays 8 million bucks for a win on the open market. Which is roughly the valuation you’re putting on him. That’s nonsense.
Joc is a heavy side platoon Outfielder. He cannot play everyday because he cannot hit lefties. He’ll probably crack 9.5 in arbitration. There’s not much surplus value in that contraction on that salary figure. . The only reason there might be a hint of surplus value is because it’s a 1 year deal.
All in all I’d expect Joc to get a similar deal to Avisail Garcia next year. Assuming his production falls in line with where it’s been. He looks like a 2/20 player to me.
Yes. You’re missing what the Dodgers are getting in return. No one here knows that.
Bowie Kuhn would have nixed the Betts trade in a heartbeat. But back then competitive balance didn’t mean the Dodgers and Yankees have to make the playoffs to generate fan interest.
On a side note, Joc Pederson won’t hit .210 with eleven HRs for the Angels. The Dodgers do not dump guys who have any upside. Anybody they acquire becomes the best player since Willie Mays and anyone they trade completely tanks.. Joc has reached his peak and his K rate will go through the roof with the Angels.
I regret the 20 seconds it took me to read this.
@stevenbaker Pedro Martinez says hi. Some say Pedro went on to have a pretty decent career after being dumped by the Dodgers and being labeled as being too small to be effective by Tommy Lasorda.
He had the largest strike zone ever. A third of his strikes were 4-6″ off the plate.
Another unbiased Yankee fan to chime in.
Also Google “pitchers who benefited from a wide strike zone” and you will be surprised to see the first link.
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/11/10/1804970/benefit-of-the-doubt-relievers-who-get-the-wide-zone
Get it done.
Oh, okay Cam.
Aaaaaaaas yoooooooou wiiiiiiiiiiiiish…!
they hit a snag in the deal when, after giving everyone a full day to voice their opinions, Bloom realized that he is getting shafted and backed out. That’s the only ‘problem’ here.
It would be the prospect from the 3rd leg of a 3(really 4 given Angels deal seems intertwined)…team deal to hold up this complex AF trade. Lol
Don’t Blink Dodgers as Red Sox only other options require taking Wil Myers and/or paying Tax
Sit tight rich
Everything should work out but given the kid has already had TJ surgery and the Sox ownership memory of the Pomerantz medicals fallout as well as health disclosure laws, the delay seems reasonable, There’s no reason though to announce the players involved until everything is done.
Maybe bloom says let’s do this all internal.
I’ll kick you betts, price, and peraza. You send back verdugo, pederson, maeda and a lottery ticket.
Bloom releases JBJ on his non-guaranteed arb agreed salary and boston winds up another 11m under cbt as they would’ve been originally.
Pederson>JBJ both on 1 yr deals.
Maeda>graterol as a starter apparently, and boston chooses whether he makes 3m or 11m.
Verdugo the constant.
Maybe someone else takes jbj for a lottery pick if bloom kick in a couple mil.
Dodgers save whatever they were paying to try to get a potential 2b or at least utility inf.
Not impossible right? Not likely, but, not inpossible.
Not apparently. Maeda >>>>> Graterol as a starter right now, and probably forever. Graterol’s chances of being an effective starter are not good for multiple reasons.
I mentioned the same thing. The RS whine to the LAD that Graterol is damaged goods. LAD then offers to add Maeda instead of Gaterol, since it is the same deal to them. The RS complain that Gaterol was key since they wanted him more than Maeda, so the LAD have to throw in something else.
Since Joc was already on the move, and since they are slightly over budget, the RS offer to chip in some $$$, since they are ~ $18M under now.
As a side benefit, the LAD can still offer Stripling to the Angels for that kid.
Maeda’s Contract
Innings Pitched Bonus
$250,000 each for: 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 200
Games Started Bonus
$1M each for: 15, 20, 25, 30, 32
People seem to think his contract is his base salary. It’s not. The Dodgers have been manipulating his starts and innings for years.
Maeda as a starter does not, you’re correct, make 3m anymore.
BUT, as a 32 game starter, hurling 200+ IP, Maeda maxes out at 14m/yr in salary.
To hit that many innings you must be effective, or, your manager would pull you.
I’d gladly take a healthy (32 start) effective (200+ IP) member of the rotation at 14m. Not only is it under what SP has gone for this offseason, but because it’s incentive based if he underperformed you pay almost nothing.
AltSox
Incredibly logical position.
I don’t know why the Red Sox are so worried about the cap. For you and me, who cares if they go over the cap by five to ten million. But they seem to care. Maybe they have big plans in 2021?
I’m just saying based on the limitation of this imaginary cap, things get complex. I sure wish the Red Sox would take Maeda and just get it over with.
Honestly I think chaim wants the floor of maeda but paying 500k/yr the first few years, the the 3 arb years at the end.
Maeda I think is a good deal as a known quantity and no cost downside.
Future years, you figure peak production, maeda costs you at the high end 70m. A top pitching prospect (ignoring possible extension) runs… if you keep it cheap maybe $20m in that same time.
Chaim wants that value…. but really he should just not get in a bunch over it IMO. The team can afford it, less risk/gamble, just not the lottery cost savings upside
The Red Sox cannot perennially go over the luxury tax limit. This would be the third straight year they’d go in the penalty box. At some point you’re going to have to reset that. Obviously they “could” pay the tax every single year but i don’t think anyone believes that’s the best strategy. It’s not solely for financial reasons either. The draft and IFA penalties are every bit as important. They have a team with obvious flaws and could use a reset year.
This makes too much sense to be the year you press reset. Recoup some pieces that will help In the near future. The Dombrowski style of roster creation doesn’t leave you much of anything left in the minors. They’re well overdue for a restocking.
How does Maeda cost 70 million? You just said he maxes out at 14. 14*4=56
Though I think you’re high on the 14 for Maeda. When I looked at it yesterday I believe it was just north of 12 per year if he hit all the incentives.
@jbigz12 mostly agree here. But I do have an issue with people saying the Red Sox can duck the luxury tax and still make the playoffs in 2020. They were already 12 games back of a wild card spot in 2019 and the other teams vying for Wild Card spots have improved this offseason.
I certainly don’t agree with that. The RS are not looking at the playoffs this year without some extreme luck going their way. The team is worse than last season. Would be hard to argue that it isn’t. It’s definitely not a bad team though. Could be an 82-85 ish game winner. Verdugo is a solid major league OF. Benintendi could rebound. Devers could get even better. Sale also could bounce back in a big way.
Team isn’t bad by any means. But the Yankees are better. The Rays aren’t any worse and even the Blue Jays made an effort to get better. Playoffs are highly unlikely.
Cots has this:
Base – 3
Max incentives – 10
Annual roster bonus: 150k
Omg it would another faulty trade if that pitcher the RS getting is defective. That would be horrific n they need to demand another pitching body.
If Graterol’s medical records are the snag for this blockbuster… oh man I would be so happy.
Hopefully it is, I would rather the Dodgers keep Verdugo for 5 more years than expect Betts to be the one piece that guarantees a WS win.
Whenever someone uses the word guarantee in a baseball discussion I’m always left wondering if they are watching the same game as the rest of us.
I’m left wondering if you comprehended the comment or you just jumped at your first chance to bark about something. Because Franky didn’t use the word “guarantee” as a guarantee of anything.
Agreed
In the statement “….than expect Betts to be the one piece that guarantees a WS win,” the word guarantee was actually being used poetically. I see the light now. Thanks!
Did everyone forget the Evil Empire also plays baseball?
Guy said Evil Empire when they’ve been absent from the World Series for a decade now hahaha
Haha so true Johnny! This dude is so miserable in his existence, I don’t think I have ever seen him post a positive comment on this site, and his comments are eeeeeevvverywhere.
So every scout and website thinks this guy is a reliever but this is new shocking information to the Sox?
Of course. Just like the Dodgers will be absolutely shocked when Betts shows up and they discover that he is really 5’7″ and not 5’9″.
Red Sox are so scummy.
Mikeytikey, go back to sleep in your crib.
haha good one
Yeah, they found out he only has 2 pitches, a 103 mph heater and a wipe out slider. Nobody with only those two pitches could ever become a starter. I guess Boston’s bullpen is set, with closer by committee. Worked out great last year.
You’re right. Nobody with an average velocity playing at 99mph with a sinking fastball which doesn’t miss bats and a good, but not completely dominant slider and no other pitches is likely viewed as a starter. Especially not when they’ve missed 2 of the past 4 years with elbow and shoulder issues between putting on 85lbs of body fat.
Graterol is not throwing 103mph as a starter. He sits at 98-99mph later in starts already.
Looked pretty easy 100 in the playoff series. Slider was nice too. Historically around 1 HR per 20 AB, and the sinking heat for grounders is a plus. How many top 100 pitching prospects in Boston system? (crickets..)
Minnesota would be happy to keep him, their other top 100 Balazovic, and their near-top 100 Duran..
Oops, one HR per 20 IP…lmao…
The Dodgers Angels trade is even more intriguing. There has to be a bigger name prospect coming back to the Dodgers because right now its way too lopsided. Marsh maybe?
Marsh is not coming back for a year of Joc Pederson and Ross Stripling.
I would tend to agree but I bet you didnt expect Kenta Maeda netting a top 100 prospect. Andy Pages being in the deal is why I could see a surprising name. There is literally no reason to include him in this deal unless its bigger than it looks.
Contrary to my belief yesterday—If Bloom has determined that Graterol is a reliever then there really is something wrong there. If that’s the case he’s not the prospect evaluators have rated so highly.
He certainly has the stuff to work out very well at the back end of the bullpen though. But that is very concerning that Bloom’s opinion was changed so strongly in 24 hours after seeing his medical chart.
So unless Brandon Marsh has some debilitating knee injury that makes him a DH. Im going to say he’s not the guy.
“I would tend to agree but I bet you didnt expect Kenta Maeda netting a top 100 prospect”
Now you know why, the top 100 prospect is damaged goods
No, the top 100 prospect just isn’t a top 10 prospect in disguise. Many fans simply overrated him. Maeda is a middle rotation starter on a fantastic contract. That usually brings in a lot more than a 80-100 prospect.
3 years of Stripling though
None of the top Angels prospects are in the deal. Page might even be better than the 2 prospects the Angels send over to the Dodgers. Also, the Angels are only paying 600K of the salary to Ross
How does that make sense? I can’t see LA just throwing Pederson and Stripling for nothing.
You also don’t know how highly LAD valued Rengifo. They may really see something that can be fixed in him. Like they did with Max Muncy and Chris Taylor. There are some FO’s that have done enough solid work to get the benefit of the doubt on decisions like that.
But obviously until the rest of the names in the trade are released we’re all just guessing. Really no point til we get the whole package.
I highly doubt that is the case. Rengifo hit just under .240 with minimal power and speed. He must be good with the glove because he has utility guy written all over him and nothing more!
Yeah and Chris Taylor was a floundering minor leaguers. Ditto Max Muncy. I’m not going to be arrogant enough to act like I know how to spot something that could be changed in a players swing to take him to the next level.
The Dodgers have a pretty strong track record in that area though. It’s all speculation at this point. We don’t know 2 of the pieces going back in return.
But where would they play Rengifo? He’s a 2nd baseman and can also play SS. They have a generational talent in Lux ready to play 2nd for the next 5+ years and have Seager @ SS with Jeter Downs waiting in the wings. Rengifo is not a realistic 3rd baseman, so it seems like they would be trading for a utility IF and/or insurance policy in case Lux flames out (which is highly unlikely). There has to be more to this deal than just him.
And you ignore his 2018, when he hit 299/399/400+ … I’m stunned
He’s shown very good discipline and talent with the bat in the recent past. And he’s way more valuable as a middle infielder than an OF who has no plate appearances available
Oh, and he’s going into one of the best systems at developing hitters. You haters are hilarious
Only stupid people assume prospects will step in as starters and be the same player as they were inAAA. no matter the prospect rank
He’s depth that’s way more valuable than anOFer when they expect to give 700+ ABs to each of Bellinger and Mookie
Where would they play Rengifo? This is the Los Angeles Dodgers. The king of platooning guys all over the diamond. Where has Kike, Chris Taylor, and Muncy been playing? All over. Rengifo has the ability to be used in multiple slots. Betts could very easily play some CF. Pollock is a walking DL stint and the Dodgers are known for their depth.
It also would not surprise me to see them try to deal Kike to get further away from that tax threshold and leave room for another deadline acquisition. Though all of that is clearly just my speculation.
This is the Los Angeles dodgers. You’re right
They LOVE depth. Especially depth with multiple minor league options and AT LEAST 5 years more of control
And he was a legit prospect as recently as 2018. And he a 399 on base percentage. And he’s 22. And the dodgers are great at developing hitters
Should I stop?
If Lux struggles like he did in Sept, he can easily be sent to aaa and someone called up. They won’t let him suck all year in the majors. They just won’t, they want to win too much AND care too much about his future
Rengifo is 22-year-old switch hitter plays shortstop and second base runs pretty well has a little pop in his bat He held his own for 22 year old rookie this kids going to be good
Rengifo got off to a little slow Hit 7 homeruns with 44 RBIs Switch hitting shortstop & second baseman 22-year-old rookie kid got some upside
He also has minor league options which is huge.
Too bad the Dodgers don’t churn out WS victories.
Get all that. You have now explained Rengifo for one year of Joc and Pages. What about Stripling???
Please stop.
What about him? Angels are also sending prospects.
Not their top two but the Dodgers are sending a major league starter in Stripling.
Amk no way marsh is being traded for that lol. Mookie and price barely cost dodgers maeda and verdugo. Joc isnt even close to that in terms of value and is just 1 year. Im guessing 2 middle tier players on angels which will most likely be towards the back end of dodgers farm.
Pederson’s contract represents substantial excess value for that one year, enough to net back one top shelf prospect (already named). Add in Stripling and that’s more excess contract value that the Dodgers will expect to be compensated. Not as much as Pederson but probably enough to net a second-shelf prospect (not yet named).
Stripling has very simular value to Kenta. And Kenta just surprised many people with his return. I think Marsh is wishful thinking but its not that insane to say. Stripling isn’t a guy you just throw away. If the deal was just a dump there is no reason to toss in a lottery ticket like Pages. Stripling and Joc dont need anything attached to them for a team to bite.
Yeah, you’re right. For some reason I was thinking Stripling was in his last year of team control. Actually it’s three. He should fetch a highly-rated prospect especially if the Dodgers are also giving Pages. More shoes to drop here for sure, assuming the whole thing doesn’t fly apart.
Ive been looking all day too….not a word…. now with this it all makes sense …… they want to make sure this major trade is ironed out first before revealing more names-
Im thinking OF , Adams makes sense…. whoever it is Angels should be worried, pinpointing prospects is our jam
Billy is not worried about sending low level prospects to the Dodgers that might become a MLB player in 3-4 years. He is worried about contending for a WC spot in 2020. Adding Pederson and Stripling will do that. Keeping Rengifo who was slated to go to Salt Lake and other minor leaguers will not.
Yea we already got your 4th best prospect in Renigfro but we will get more –
Be afraid…… be very afraid …….we are gonna make that 29th best minor league system of yours 30th by weeks end Koamalu !!
No not Marsh or Adell in fact I heard on ESPN that the 2 prospects coming from the Angels are between their # 7 -#10 prospect and Adell is #1 and Marsh is #2 .
Those picks might actually be going to the Redsox also.
The prospects that ARE involved have not been revealed, but those that are not involved have been. Adell, Marsh, Adams, Jones, Jackson, and Knowles won’t be going to the Dodgers.
Basically the Dodgers trading Pederson and Maeda to clear the Dodgers half of Price’s salary for this season while taking on 26 million for Mookie (give or take by subtracting Verdugo and Stripling’s salaries which is basically league minimum for each). Dodgers seem to have given up far more than expected in this trade, even if it’s been spread out between three teams.
Unshockingly, another hot take completely misses the point
There was no space for Joc with Mookie, even with Verdugo gone. Pollock had lower trade value and both kike/CT3 have more value because they back up the infield as well
One of Joc or Pollock had to go, and only one had value. And only one was walking as a free agent next year as well
Maeda is not a salary cutting move, it’s a get what Boston wants to complete the trade move.
Maeda is a “we’d rather give up Maeda than another one of our prospects type move” in my opinion. The Dodgers have interesting arms they could’ve given up. IE. Gonsolin, Josiah Gray
Dealing Maeda is absolutely a salary cutting move. It’s what keeps the Dodgers under the CBT. You want to know how much they value not paying the CBT? That’s how much.
Lmfao what!?
Minn agreed to give up a top 40 prospect for Kenta Maeda. Mr. we won’t start him in October
A top 40 prospect!!! Of course they traded him
He makes 3million dollars base. Do you really think NO ONE on the team makes more money? Hell, why wouldn’t they trade Kike or Taylor? They both make a lot more… what a bad take
OMG. Talk about your bad takes.
First of all, that prospect isn’t going to the Dodgers, he’s going to Boston.
Second, Maeda’s actual compensation over the last few years is closer to $12M. His base is meaningless unless he never throws a pitch. What he is actually paid at the end of the year is what counts against the CBT.
Third, he was on the bubble of remaining in the rotation before the Dodgers traded for Price. With Price he’s almost certainly a reliever.
And so on.
A walking contradiction with a masters in the art of D-baggery!
BlueSKY you’ve outdone yourself again. Let’s review:
“Second, Maeda’s actual compensation over the last few years is closer to $12M. His base is meaningless unless he never throws a pitch”.
Followed up with:
“Third, he was on the bubble of remaining in the rotation before the Dodgers traded for Price. With Price he’s almost certainly a reliever”
He can’t be a reliever and make 12 million bucks BlueSKY! In fact as a reliever he’d be hard pressed to make 5 million bucks! And while we are sticking to FACTS—the only way he makes 12 million bucks is if Maeda starts 32 games and pitches over 200 innings!
On what list is Brusdar Graterol a top 40 prospect. MLB has him 83rd
Replying to commonsense
Last years.
BP, I believe. And i trust them and BA more than MLB.
You’re a year late and a dollar short, then. Graterol dealt with a shoulder injury a lot of people expected to require surgery and his changeup didn’t develop as quickly as people hoped. He’s now looked at primarily (almost universally) as a bullpen guy and with the loss of innings, he won’t have a chance to pitch a full season in a rotation until 2022. Thus the major drop for him in the rankings.
Presumably he won’t be able to make it to the bonus levels if he’s in the bullpen?
Less innings = less money if I’m reading his contract?
And another genius misses the point
There was no space for Joc with Mookie, even with Verdugo gone. Pollock had lower trade value and both kike/CT3 have more value because they back up the infield as well
One of Joc or Pollock had to go, and only one had value. And only one was walking as a free agent next year as well
Mookie will make $27 million.
Pederson $7.75-9.5 million
Maeda $3.12 million plus incentives. A Max of about $10 million.
Stripling will make $2.1 million
Verdugo will make about MLB minimum.
The don’t even need Betts lol so gross
It would be so awesome if the deal feel through and all the Dodger fans had major premature ejaculation.
Homer. It would be so awesome if you learned to spell.
Premature ejaculation looks correct to me
It would be even more awesome if you deleted your account.,
There’s only one typo.
Boston strong-arming the deal now? Figures. Twins should pull back Graterol and see how Boston reacts. Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa be cool, minnesota, be cool.
Boston wanted a top/good young prospect starter. LA wasn’t willing to include Gonslin, May etc. Only reason Twins got involved PERIOD is because the current rotation they have maeda becomes the instant Ace.
Me? I’d be fine if LA went ahead and dumped the Twins from the deal, then sent either May/gonsolin instead since appears Graterol isn’t as healthy as led to believe (AJ Preller anyone).
Maeda becomes the instant ace? I mean I’ll take Berrios who just chucked up 200 innings of mid 3 ball. He might be the #2 because I’m certainly not a Jake Odorizzi believer but cmon.
And there’s no shot the Dodgers are going to send May. The deal will just fall through if that’s what it came down to. But it shouldn’t because the Dodgers have a ton of other arms that could go in his place.
Talk all day has been that the Dodgers will send Gray and then make a separate trade for Maeda with the Twins.
Red Sox don’t want a reliever and Gonsolin is destined to be a reliever.
Why is Gonsolin destined to be a reliever again?
Maeda isn’t the instant ace of the Twins. He’s the #3 starter behind Berrios & Odorizzi
You win the turd comment of the day. Boston appeared happy with the deal agreed to, but there is a reason trades aren’t official when pending medicals. The team saw the medicals for a key piece to the deal and it seems didn’t like what it saw. In good faith, it is saying “hey, with this new information we’re not getting the full value anticipated, how can we bridge that gap?”
It takes a special kind of bias to take a team balking a bit at medicals and paint it as strong-arming. Figures.
Ala AJ Preller with the Matt Kemp trade, the hips dont lie lol. And after all the posturing…they took Kemp anyways with nothing extra
Here’s how Boston reacts. “Sounds good.”
Twins could just pull back, trade straight up with Dodgers Graterol for Maeda and let Boston scratch their heads about their next move.
Red Sox are going to ask to add Josiah Gray or Tony Gonsolin to the deal…or maybe even Ross Stripling now that they know they are willing to give him up! In other words, if Brusdar is indeed damaged goods, the Sox need someone they can insert into their 2020 rotation or pen on opening day.
Imagine if this deal falls apart? What a train wreck that would be for everyone!
They got Pom Pom from the Padres a few yrs ago n he was hurt n never was able to pitch effectively in Boston. If you pitch hurt n can’t perform in Boston you will hear the BOOO birds loudly.
To make this statement a fact we will change it to:
Anderson Espinoza never pitched an inning in San Diego because he wasn’t healthy.
Actually, he had a great season in 2017, but continue….
Pomeranz put up a 3.32 ERA in 32 starts in 2017. Only Sale was better,. That is very effective. Got to get the basics right for anyone to take you seriously.
Wouldn’t be that big of train wreck for everyone. Twins seemed content until LA gave them a call. LA doesn’t need this trade at all. They already have West won. Would be just as good if they added some top bullpen arms at deadline. A main reason to doing this trade was for PR. Hey look we are spending money and trying to add people get better. Now they can be like, hey we tried.
this is actually about john Henry telling his front office, no, we arent trading the best player in baseball for 2 unknowns, get the dodgers to include a high prospect or no dice’
now they are juggling what to do, go back on the deal, or make up an injury? while im not saying graterol isn’t hurt, he very well may be, hes not enough as a return, the sox looked at that these 24 hours and realized they are essentially throwing away the next 5 seasons, they arent going to do that, they will keep betts for this year atleast and make a run at it, then overpay him as they should.
betts is better than trout?
No Way
He’s healthier than Trout has been over the yrs.
794 games for Mookie vs 863 for Trout since Mookie came up in 2014. An average of 144 games per season for Trout vs 132 for Mookie. 52.5 WAR for Trout vs 42.0 for Mookie.
Nice try. Betts only played in 52 games his rookie year because he wasn’t promoted until late June.
Over the past five seasons, he’s averaged 148 games played. Trout – 141
How does trading away a player one year earlier than you would lose him anyways (or sign him in free agency, which it could do even if it traded him now) throw away the next 5 seasons? That isn’t how baseball works…check out the 2001 Seattle Mariners for a good example of how trading away top talent doesn’t automatically ruin teams.
This is a team seeing the medicals for a guy with some injury history and having concern, which happens. Also, Verdugo isn’t an “unknown”.
Verdugo is a top prospect.
Verdugo is beyond a top prospect, he’s a starting caliber MLB outfielder for a contender. Verdugo had played meaningful innings for the Dodgers, one of the top teams in baseball. If he wasn’t being traded, he’d be playing 120+ games for LA.
John Henry saw that Paxton went down. That made punting on 2020 less appealing…?
they are essentially throwing away the next 5 seasons
———————————————————
They are throwing away the next 5 seasons, because they traded away one season of Betts for 5+ seasons of two guys?
Are you aware that what you said is exactly 100% backwards in all respects?
2……”unknowns”?
Its gonna be funny when the deal falls through.
Everyone has been talking as if it was a done deal. Imagine if it fell apart.
It’s way too important to LAD and BOS to fail because of another teams prospect
Would be great for us. Sox’ s are hell bent on getting under the luxury. More trade rumors. Maybe more teams will be in seeing the price wasn’t insane high and now Sox are more desperate. Or just a Price salary dump not eating as much $ and a Betts solo trade. We had the excitement of this trade already and now get 2 more trades! Then Twins now realize “hey we did need another starter” Same with Angels. Now I am rooting for it not to go through. Next year the Dodgers fans excuse will be because we didn’t get Mookie. Sox cheated us out of a championship in 2018 and again in 2020.
and i HATE long contracts, harper ,cole , a-rod, the only 2 ill ever say made sense will be mookie and mike trouts, you dont let that kinda talent get traded, no matter what, you get penalized pay fees whatever, but you make damn sure you sign them
Mookie is not going to be an exception to that
All pitcher contracts over 4 years is stupid. When was the last time there was a 5+ year deal for a pitcher that wasnt flawed in some way shape or form? Maybe CC, But even he had personal issues towards the end.
Scherzer and Greinke
Max Scherzer
It’s hard to find a pitching contract over 6 years that didn’t work out. Maybe Felix Hernandez. That’s about it.
Price
Hampton
Sutter
K. Brown
Zito
If Harper stinks the last 4 years or less it will be ok. He sold and will sell a lot of tickets jerseys beer dogs etc. Plus they own shares in Comcast so he made them a lot of money there. Don’t know exact numbers but Harper is banking them some serious dough. They only paid him so far what 20 some million and he has made them over 50 million already. Now factoring in baseball only he is over rated and not worth 330 million.
Mookie anything is possible but small speed guys don’t trend well for having long productive careers. Especially without peds. Look at McCutchen and then Ellsberry. That is most likely Mookies future.
Mookie is not a small speed guy. He is a power hitter. 30 HR per full season.
If he plays at his career average the first 3 years of a new deal through his age 30 season and then start to decline, he could retire after 8 years and a 10/350 deal would still be a win for the team that signs him.
A-Rod’s first deal he signed with the Rangers was actually a bargain. It looked bad because the Rangers owner wouldn’t invest anymore in the team and then had him traded and covered a good chunk of it to have it moved when in hindsight they should of just kept him. He performed at an elite level the entire length of the contract. Now the second contract he signed with the Yankees where they were basically bidding against themselves and had to eat the last couple years doesn’t look so good.
Verdugo and Meada for 1 year of Betts and 3 of Price. I don’t see why the Dodgers do this. Verdugo is young, inexpensive and controllable and has a ton of talent. Maeda is a decent back end starter. Betts is a great player, but is he enough to get the World Series?
Betts Is a luxury item for the Dodgers, someone to sooth the fan bases wantin need for a big move. Price (or another starting pitcher really) is what they really need to win the world series.
Mookie is good enough to win the NL MVP and World Series MVP. While his first year was decent, Verdugo is still somewhat of a lottery ticket with a concerning injury history. This is the right move for LA to make.
Just finish it already
Looks the Twins may have almost pulled a fast one. I don’t blame them.
An Astros fan who doesn’t blame a team for pulling a fast one? What a surprise.
Flags fly forever
See my user name? It’s an acronym for any Astros fan that has no issue with what Houston did to win the WS.
Sure they do. Just ask any dictator.
@astrosfan you’re trash
Flags fly forever
Some fly as long as mosquitos…remember that.
Astros WS flag should have a skull and crossbones on it.
What about an asterisk?
I don’t really nothing takes away the memories. Haters can pretend the Astros were the only ones cheating. That’s fine.
Astros fans understand that we were the scapegoat. We lost four valuable picks. That hurts, but Click and Dusty will be fine.
Make jokes, it’s cool. But if fans want to get outraged, why not minor league pay?
Oh my. If Minnesota has to raise their offering and Graterol still makes it as a starter for Boston, are we talking a double-fleece?
Unless his medicals are a disaster, I still think LA would do the Maeda for Graterol trade even if Boston is turned off by him. LA could end up keeping Graterol for themselves and adding different prospects to make Boston happy.
LA didn’t add any prospects when the Padres balked at Matt Kemp’s medicals. I seriously doubt they will now. At least nothing of consequence.
You’re also talking about a washed up player, not Mookie
Actually, you may be on to something Dorothy. Maeda for Graterol, if medicals are not terrible. Maeda wants out anyway.
Ooorrr just send Maeda to Boston and cut out Minnesota.
This “thing” has faces?
Why in the world would L.A. do that? They’re trading a cost controlled, high quality, mid rotation arm for an unproven bullpen guy with health issues? There’s a reason the Twins were getting mostly A’s and B’s on the trade overall. It was a really good deal for them even when fans were willing to believe Graterol could be a really good starter.
Boston obviously wants the deal to work, so who’s putting more on the table? Article mentions Twins possibily to add more.
I personally don’t fret our modern sports medicine system. These doctors and all the rehab programs are so top notch, I have to wonder what Bloom is getting at. Graterol is 21.
The issue is to satisfy Boston, not Minnesota, martras.
The Dodgers realize they have a 2 year window left to field a ‘perfect’ team of veterans and youngsters. Kershaw, Turner, Jansen, Pollock are much closer to the end of their careers than their prime, so they are going for broke this season and it’s the right move for them.
While the Dodgers system is packed with young talent, you can’t predict how even Top 10 MLB prospects will perform under the bright lights of MLB or with the pressure of playoff baseball so Friedman wants to give them the best shot to win it all this season. Losing Verdugo and Maeda is a small price to pay to get one year of the most exciting player in baseball and another savvy veteran pitcher who knows how to win. With their farm system, the Dodgers are setup to be very good for the next 5-7 years but this team (provided the Mookie deal goes through) is set up to be excellent and should win it all so long as they stay healthy.
This part cracked me up: “whom they now regard as more of a reliever than a starter after looking at his medical records”
Graterol’s most likely outcome has always been a reliever. His ceiling was/is higher, that’s all. Nothing about his medical should change that. It’s like they got him, pending physical, and then had buyers remorse and used that as an excuse.
It’s fine to be worried about his medicals, but seems hilarious to be surprised that a likely reliever is a reliever.
The Tampa wonder kid was the last person in baseball to realize he is a reliever.
Unless there is something about his Medicals that cry out that Graterol is a likely candidate to start the season on the dl, this doesn’t make much sense. The prior TJ and last year’s shoulder impingement and return were all known even before seeing records.
You know, there’s a lot the astros did right to go with all they did wrong.
Remember Brady Aiken? Where is he now?
It’s easy to know graterol had tj.
It’s hard to say a medical staff LIKES how that ligament/joint look, and are confident in its ability to hold wear/tear with a guys unique motions, which is kinda independent of whether tj occured or was successful.
As others have pointed out, Graterol’s medical records may be suggesting Graterol is not fit for the workload of a starter. Which means Boston can’t rely on even trying to turn Graterol into a starter by getting that 3rd pitch worked out.
Is the real issue Graterol being unable to get that 3rd pitch working or the risk his shoulder blows up and ends his career if you try to make him into an MLB starter? My earlier Alex Meyer comparison was better than I thought.
This trade was submitted using the same app used during the Iowa Caucuses.
The question is, which one will be finalized first, this trade or the final Iowa results!
As a precinct captain at the caucus, this comment made my day!
God bless you, sir.
Follow up question, please!
Which gets resolved first? The primary or the trade?
Ah Sox…could have got a starting pitcher from the Pads and substantially more.
Sox are idiots. How could they resist a starting Padre pitcher and Myers.
Is hard to believe Lovin. Myers has been such a superstar.
Good point. Or they could trade Graterol for somebody Boston wants. The Dodgers can still make this work a number of ways.
Wasn’t I reading all day yesterday from every Sox fan on Earth how awesome this deal was for Boston? I doubt LA will even be willing to add Gonsolin. This deal took a very long time to put together. You cannot change the deal at the 11th hour. The Wilpons tried to do that. You will notice that their buyer just walked away. The same thing could easily happen here if the Sox try to get stupid and demand someone like May, Urias or even Gonsolin.
I hope it doesnt happen
I think we have a bitter Yankee fan!
met fan. Not bitter. Dodgers don’t need him and it’s a gross underpay
yes mookie is worth that contract unless you live in mass like i do you have no idea how truly special he is, hes a generational talent, theirs maybe 3 guys id ever say that about and the only, only contract i ever saw work long term was manny ramirez, when he signed that deal he lived up to it each night and every night, yes i know later he took steroids, i couldnt have cared less, he was the best right handed hitter in the game for over 7 years in boston and mookies that good, funny isnt it? the yankees just overpayed for a pitcher yet nobody is asking is he worth it? so, why do people doubt betts is, do you think when he turns 29 he’ll magically forget how to hit a baseball? grow up. Hes worth it, few guys are
I thought Massachusetts had good school systems?
Andy, lots of immigration into mass. Back in the day it was a big place for Puerto Rican migration among others. Dilutes the effect of the schools down some, and schools in some areas are much MUCH better than others.
So it’s not bad schools, it’s dumb Puerto Rican immigrants that are dragging good schools down? That is what you are saying AltSoxFan?
Does anyone else find that rude and racist?
It could’ve been left unmentioned, but if your community has more ESL students than the community next door, wouldn’t your scores be lower? I assume that if I took a test in Spanish, it would lower the scores of my school.
Racist or not, catering to kids who don’t speak English slows down class rooms. I don’t care if they are from Mexico, France, Italy or Hungary.
Why is that racist?
Mookie is well worth the 27 million this year. He is most likely not worth 300 to 400 million. Most players havnt been or won’t be. Especially a small speed guy. Boston fans will treat him like a better version of Ellsberry. Loved Mookie, what great times. So thankful he turned down our offer though.
And people have seen him. They put the Sox and Yankees on national tv 3 or 4 times a week it seems.
Mookie has averaged 7.9 WAR in his career. If Mookie repeats his 6.8 WAR from 2019, he will be worth roughly double what he is being paid. If he produces at his career average he will provide $36+ million in surplus value, If he puts up another 9.7-10 WAR season and he will have provided nearly double his $27 million salary in surplus value.
Mookie is asking for and if he plays a healthy 2020 season will probably get is $35 million AAV and 10+ years. At 28 years old, someone may give him a 12 year deal.
If he produces a 6.8 WAR average for first 3 years of the deal and then starting in his age 31 season declines at 10% per season for the next 7 years he will still provide surplus value on a 10 year deal.
If he produces at his career average the first 3 years of the deal, declines 10% per season over the next 5 years. he could retire after year 8 and still provide surplus value.
That is how good he is and why a deal with a player that produces at his level is almost guaranteed to be a good deal.
Mookie has averaged 29 HR per season the past 4. years. He is not a small speed guy.
and yes so is trout thats why he is never leaving anehiem, i honestly see betts making more, he steals more bases and hes a better outfielder. Its not even close, the only thing trout has on him is hes more of a power hitter, they are the 2 best players in baseball.its not even an argument
Except Mookie had 1 Mike Trout season and Mike Trout had 10 Mike Trout seasons.
How old are you kid 10? 11?
Debating Trout and Betts is asinine. Betts will couldn’t live up to a six year contract, nevermind a twelve year contract. He’s too small to get that money he wants. As a Red Sox fan, I’m happy he’ll be leaving…potentially.
Betts is a better outfielder than Trout? What a dumb comment. Betts is way too small to be sustainable for 10-12 years and $400
Million.
He’s better than Trout defensively. No, I am not a Red Sox fan, I’m just saying it because it’s true.
Betts is on a Hall of Fame pace and is the second best player in baseball… by far.
Trout is on a All-Time_Great pace and is the best player in baseball…. by far. .
I think when Betts moves to LA, he’s going to lose some WAR.
These teams are like the trade rumors commenters are saying we got fleeced
BETTS is Plausibly worth his asking price more then others but well never know till the end but for now current day I’d say yes him Trout possibly Belinger Ucuna Jr. When his bigger payday comes
Preller may not be done for yet
I am curious what they said about Verdugo. He was out the last month and was suppose to be back for the playoffs. Here we are in February and he is still having issues.
Price has the weird elbow and now Graterol’s medicals show something beyond TJ.
There are some hurdles here. It would be funny if it somehow blows up ony due to Graterol’s medicals.
Reports have specifically said Verdugo passed his physical and is not the hold up
That was most LA fans fear, since he seems to be a the centerpiece
I hope this thing falls on their faces
Now who’s a bitter fan. Yes you are, yes you are
The Red Sox found out about the Paxton injury and decided they have a shot at catching the Yankees this year and changed their mind about giving away Betts
Uhhhh
Ugh…. false hope the Red Sox aren’t about to trade there superstar and pay David Price to pitch for the Dodgers….. if ever there was a time to say “Wait! We change our minds” lol
For the love of God, please fall apart
what do the Dodgers and a lawn chair have in common?
Neither could win a world series the last few years?
They both fold up after Labor Day!!!
watch Price’s medicals screw this up
According to reports this morning, both Price and Verdugo medials have been cleared
Don’t teams look at the medical records before making a trade?
i think its usually agreed to, medicals are taken, and then becomes official. because of all the insiders we learn about these things before the medicals happen now.
They do. That is why the trade isn’t completed.
HIPAA laws don’t allow free access to the medicals of opposing players until the trade is in motion. But the access at that point gives the teams the right to cancel or amend a deal if something alarming is found. Apparently, the Red Sox saw Graterol as a potential starter, unlike just about everybody else who saw him as cheap version of Chapman who could be closing out Sox games for the next 5 years. A relief pitcher has less value to a team than a starter, so the apparent delay is the teams negotiating an additional player to add value to the Red Sox take.
This is the major leagues letting the Dodgers get there 2017 title back. Because all those trade where lopsided on the Dodgers favor.
I’ve heard rumors that price failed his physical
I heard the same thing, the doctor was appalled when he went to do the cough test and realized David doesn’t have balls
Rumor is dodgers are in trade talks with eckersley to acquire those separately.
Hold up is how much the plaque theyre mounted to above the fireplace is worth.
LMFAO
Tried to call Adam Silver for advice on how long to hold trades so the public believes it was negotiated between the teams rather than MLB. The only league remaining pro sports league that isn’t manipulated is the NHL.
any proof or motive?
Twins should pull Graterol from the deal and pursue a separate deal with the Dodgers for Maeda.
Also, what’s holding the Dodgers back from dealing Gonsolin? He’s good, but it’s not like he’s a can’t miss prospect, seems fair to me.
Why cant LA and NY work worked on a deal centering on Bellinger and Judge? Yanks get a lefty bat who can play RF and 1st and allow Stanton to go back to his normal position and play RF. Judge can go back to his hometown and play RF for LA.
Well Bellinger is a lot better for one.
No kidding. Not saying a one for one swap.
Go Cubs Go
Noone from the LAD, Twins or Sox has said anything about there being a “DEAL”.
Sounds like the usual media suspects jumped the gun.
The Dodgers, Twins and Red Sox have all agreed to the deal “pending physicals.” So pretty much everybody has said there’s a “DEAL”
The Twins just had their financing fall through on after the dealer excepted their offer.
The problem with the statement is that none of LAD, BoSox or twins said that. Only the media without saying who was leaking that nonsense.
Yeah the Angels are throwing in Jo Adell, you people don’t realize is the Dodgers are trying to dump salary to 1. Get Betts and Price on board and 2. Have the space to attempt to sign Betts in the off season. So they aren’t really looking for major pieces back.
Great trade Bloom an accomplished Allstar and MVP for two guys one with a back injury and shoulder issues and a pitcher coming off TJ Surgery and shoulder problems the last two months of the 2019 season. Wait till Mookie has a great year with the Dodgers and all we did was dump payroll to get John Henry under the Luxury Tax.
Hire a Manager Already!!!
This crap might work in Tampa Bay where they average 7,000 a game but not in a Major Baseball Market like Boston. The media and fans will not put up with this and Bloom will be scapegoated after this disaster in 2020.
The delay “is a problem but one we can figure out,”
Trains leave Boston, Minnesota and Los Angeles at 9:00 AM traveling 50 MPH. The Boston train heads west, the Minnesota train heads south and the California train heads east. The trains will all stop in Kansas City and exchange passengers. When each train has each of its passengers, it will turn around and head back. Which train will arrive back first and which train will arrive back last?.
Finalnder and 28rings make interesting points.
I have no doubt that there are things on Graterol’s medicals to raise concern, as talented as he is.
But there is also a possibility that the RS are warming up to the idea of challenging the NYY. Since the LAD are parting with Joc to get under the cap, and since the RS just moved under the cap by ~ $18M, maybe the RS want to reverse course, take Maeda instead of Graterol, have the LAD throw in Joc, and the RS kick in a minor leaguer and/or cash.
And if anyone says ‘yeah, but the RS have no minor leaguers, I am already pre-hating you.
Mookie was never going to sign an extension and his ask price of $420,000,000 is way too much especially in the last half of his contract. Whoever signs him will regret it (just like Pujols)! The Redsox would have needed to trade Mookie even if there was not a CBT reset! This trade was a smart long term move!!
I agree. However, on Pujols, it should’ve been presumed that they would regret only the last 8 years of the contract. I still fondly remember arguing with the Angel fans telling me that this was a great signing of a generational talent.
Mookie will be going into his age 28 season when he signs as a free agent. Albert Pujols was going into his age 32 season. Not comparing apples to apples.
Mookie shouldn’t have any decline for at least 3 seasons. For Pujols, his age 32 season was the 2nd in the inevitable post 30 decline for MLB players.
Pujols was still a highly effective hitter for the 1st 5 years of his deal, even though he was in obvious decline. The Angels mistake was the age they signed him at, not the dollar figure. .
On paper this was the Master, Friedman, taking advantage of, his student, Bloom.
I’m happy and excited about Verdugo passing his physical. This deal appears to be a total win on paper for the Dodgers.
It’s almost a Quid Pro Quo ‘though.’ The Sox trade one of the top 5 players in baseball and arguably a pitcher Friedman and Bloom were familiar with. The Sox would send along $45 M over 3 years to pay him to pitch for the the Dodgers.
Last week there was speculation–the Dodgers and Angels thought about reuniting Price with Maddon in Anaheim. So the Dodgers get Betts for Verdugo and the Angels get Price for prospects.
At first glance it appears the Sox got two damaged goods players for Betts–what do you think Mr. Bloom??? Mr. Friedman???
I don’t think the Red Sox did that badly. They got rid of Price and traded Betts for five years of Verdugo and they are going to end up with a pitcher.
Verdugo had a 3.1 WAR last year in his 23 year old season. Even if he averages that, the Red Sox score big.
Also something that is not being noted. Betts is going to have less defensive value in LA than in Fenway. Verdugo will likley have more in Fenway than LA. Fenway has a big RF, which means the better defensive player you are, the more value you’ll have, and vice-versa.
Agree completely! I would rather have 5 years of Verdugo than 1 year of Betts then have him walk. How many times has he said he will become a free agent and walk…..too many to count. Everyone who thinks it is a bad idea to trade Mookie presumes he will resign. I highly doubt he wants to stay!!
How do you know he is going to be that good compared to an established player like Mookie Betts as opposed to a rookie who had one year? Are you kidding me? John Henry has the money. Make an offer of 350 million for 10 years and an option year.
It sure is easy too spend other people’s money isn’t it?
Yes, I agree. I would rather have 5 years of Verdugo than 1 year of Mookie. Almost everyone forgets that Mookie is gone after 2020. How many times has he said he is going free agent…..too many to count. The Red Sox needed to trade him to get someone for him and they got a very good starting outfielder.
Agree completely! I would rather have 5 years of Verdugo than 1 year of Betts then have him walk. How many times has he said he will become a free agent and walk…..too many to count. Everyone who thinks it is a bad idea to trade Mookie presumes he will resign. I highly doubt he wants to stay!!
Maybe Mookie just does not like living in Boston…….
Dodgers need pitching. Their staff of Buehler, Kershaw, Urias, May, Wood, Nelson??? They’re thin at Pitching w a bunch of injury question marks. Trading Stripling AND Maeda is crazy risky. You need at least 7 durable starters to make it through a season. W their shaky bullpen and Treinen wreck, it could be a disaster by going all in on Mookie.
Dodgers need pitching. Their staff of Buehler, Kershaw, Urias, May, Wood, Nelson??? They’re thin at Pitching w a bunch of injury question marks. Trading Stripling AND Maeda is crazy risky. You need at least 7 durable starters to make it through a season. W their shaky bullpen and Treinen wreck, it could be a disaster by going all in on Mookie.
Padres. You left out Price (if deal goes through), Gonsolin, Ferguson, Santana and White. They have enough starters to make it through the season.
Dodgers need pitching?. You do not seem to follow teams outside San Diego.
Add Price or Stripling and Meada. One of that group will be there. There is also Gonsolin and Gray, So it’s a staff that goes nine or ten deep.
If the Dodgers need pitching, EVERY team in baseball needs pitching.
If only my team was that “thin” in starting pitching.
Yes there are question marks but you do realize that urias is 22 and was VERY good last seson. May is a top prospect in baseball (probably a reason for that), and Nelson, in his 3 starts, proved that he still had the stuff to be a 1-2 in any rotation.
Actually, the rule of thumb is 12 starters will be used per season.
I’m gonna laugh uncontrollably if the deal falls through and the Sox wind up having to pay Price AND Betts and can’t get under the luxury tax, but at the same time, this trade is good for baseball.
Boston’s only other option, it would seem, would be to ship Betts and Price to SD and there’s absolutely NO chance the Padres would include any of their top 5 prospects now. Not if the LA deal falls apart.
Why do people say Boston has buyers remorse and now wants more because the fans think they are getting hosed?
This deal was NEVER completed or announced, No trade is complete until medicals are reviewed and approved, the difference here is because of the magnitude of this trade it got leaked and the sport writers jumped the gun in announcing it, but be clear….this trade was never announced by either team or MLB
Teams agree to trades all the time and due to medicals back out, but we never hear about them
Still not seeing this trade from a Red Sox perspective. Basically, this is the start of a rebuild or retool and your trading your 2 best trade chips for a reliever and a corner outfielder. (I do like Verdago in Fenway).
I believe they would have done better unloading Betts at the deadline.
I read alot of Sox fans saying its a B trade. We had to get rid of Betts. Well, just because you have to doesn’t make it a good deal.
This was a salary dump and I cannot see it any other way.
I gave it a B. Agree that July probably brought back more if you want to go into a real rebuild bc or wouldn’t have gotten enough money off the books without trading other significant pieces to get under the tax. Getting under the tax restores picks and pool money which are both important. They got a cheap MLB ready OF who through 400 ABs has shown he can hit and he plays good defense. They don’t view Graterol as just a reliever, thus the holdup when the exam may indicate he might be for health reasons. He is a top 100 prospect who has also gotten a taste of the show. You get 2 MLB ready or near ready players and lux tax relief instead of more lower level prospects which you would want for a rebuild.
Betts has more value to a team trading for him now because 1, they get his entire year of production and 2, they can obtain the compensation pick by extending the qualifying offer, thus they will likely offer more. I get that there would be desperate teams in contention that might make a dumb offer at midseason to get them a half year of Betts. A first half injury could destroy that option and leave Boston stuck above the tax line.
Most really lopsided deals happen at midyear just look at Chapman for Torres , and others. Cubs are satisfied bc it worked out with a WS but that is a lot for what 30-40 innings. Those trades happen in July not February.
They are trading for 5 years of a young OF that they expect to perform at a 4 WAR level. Verdugo produced 3.1 WAR in 106 games last year. They are also expecting to get an MLB ready starting pitcher with a high ceiling. Graterol’s elbow and shoulder might now be up to that, which is why this trade is being delayed..
The Dodgers may have to include Gray or Gonsolin and another prospect to get this deal done with Boston then pursue a separate trade with the Twins for Maeda. The Twins don’t have another MLB ready starter to send to Boston.
The Red Sox not only “overpay” they also blow the “caveat emptor” due dilligence part of things.
How on earth can you keep getting sold a bill of goods time and time again?
Seems like everyone in the world knew Verdugo had a bad back and Graterol had a bad elbow and shoulder.
Don’t these guys ever lookup this stuff on the internet before they make a trade?
Any logical reasonable operation would have known exactly what was going on with these guys before they announced this deal.
The fact that this issue is coming up now is a joke.
It frankly makes the whole Red Sox front office look inept.
Check out these articles to see how “due diligence” has worked in Boston:
bleacherreport.com/articles/2780836-red-sox-news-c…
nbcsports.com/boston/boston-red-sox/boston-red-sox…
nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/pablo-sandoval-tells-…
bosoxinjection.com/2018/02/24/red-sox-j-d-martinez…
bleacherreport.com/articles/2778714-hanley-ramirez…
theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/sep/17/manny-ramir…
Wouldn’t it be more logical to just eliminate Minnesota from this deal and have the Red Sox get Maeda for Price and Verdugo for Betts?
SG…
The problem with that is the Dodgers and Angels and Red Sox want to stay under the threshold.
Maeda the starter is not going to be cheap.
Kenta Maeda is “expensive”?
What the hell are you talking about?
Kenta Maeda rhp
8 years/$25M (2016-23)
8 years/$25M (2016-23)
signed by LA Dodgers as a free agent 1/7/16
$1M signing bonus
16-23: $3M annually
What team are you a fan of? You don’t seem to follow the Dodgers.
The Dodgers have been manipulating Maeda’s salary for years. If he becomes a starter, and meets his incentives, his salary jumps dramatically. I don’t know exactly what it will become, but it will more than triple.
It’s not three million, it’s around ten million.
With Betts & Price gone, I figure the RS are $18M under. Maeda goes to the RS, the LAD throw in Joc, and the RS throw in enough money to move LAD back under the cap. The RS then either trade JBJ + $$$, or just cut him and eat the 20% penalty.
Joe, If Maeda starts, he’s going to make a lot more than 3 million dollars. The complexity of his contract makes things more difficult.
The bottom line is the Dodgers, Red Sox and Angels all want to get/stay under that cap. That’s like threading a needle. Unless a 4th team is involved, I don’t think that’s possible.
If the Red Sox could have taken on Maeda’s salary, I believe they would have. The Angels can’t take on Maeda’s and Pederson’s salary. The Twins can take on Maeda’s salary, but they don’t seem to have anyone they can send to Boston.
The issue with the RS taking on Maeda’s salary could be moot if LAD sends Joc to the RS. Right now, they have $18M to play with. If they added Maeda + Joc for $8M, and using Maeda’s 2019 stats as a guide, that’s $8.25M.
We’d still be under budget by a hair. But if we got Joc, it also means that JBJ is gone, with a savings of $9M+.
Joe – I proposed basically that restructuring earlier, just tossing peraza on the pot so LAD gets their 2b/utility inf type guy.
Mac – you broke the incentives down nicely elsewhere. If maeda maxes out every incentive you listed he runs around 14m for 32 starts and 200+ IP. Obviously he only hits those if healthy/effective so you’re ok paying below market rate to get it. If he goes down, you don’t pay hardly anything. Win/Win scenario in my book and a great #4/5 with upside for the Sox.
10 million is going to break the bank. OMG!
@JoeBrady why would the Red Sox want Joc Pederson? To ensure that the Blue Jays don’t beat them out for 3rd in the division?
I remember someone having said that. Teams very rarely trade for someone they could’ve signed earlier. But I’m guessing that we could be close enough where we can settle on almost range of additions.
IRT your comment to Mac, it seems like a clear win/win.
If Maeda pitches badly, salary is not an issue.
If he pitches well, and we are winning, maybe trade someone else’s salary.
If he is pitching well, and in line for the $14M, and we are out of it, he’d make a great trade chip. What could be interesting is if we later traded him to MN for Graterol.
I’d love to see him succeed for us, but it is difficult to imagine this being much of a negative.
It is 10 mill Mas- Which is still a deal considering your guaranteed starts/inns if he meets them for that salary– If he blows out his arm your only out 3 mill…..unique contract indeed
@Jim the goat –
Can’t speak for joe, but, to me joc is a nice bat upgrade over JBJ at cheaper money.
Verdugo + Joc > Verdugo + JBJ when you’re looking at that pairing to replace the production of betts + jbj.
Keeps more offense intact – by a long shot.
“@JoeBrady why would the Red Sox want Joc Pederson?”
————————————————————-
If we traded for Verdugo, Joc, and Maeda, we would still reset the salary cap, we’d be a favorite to make the playoffs, and we might be able to attached a QO to Joc if he has another 3.3 WAR season.
By my calculations, that makes it a win-win-win scenario. Any other questions?
I agree with JoeBrady.
Get Minnesota and Anaheim out of this deal.
Make the deal Betts and Price for Maeda, Verdugo and Pederson.
And, if necessary, move JBJ.
@AtlSoxFan Joc is also a one-year rental. If the Red Sox trade Betts their 2020 is sunk. As such, Joc would have no value to them. Negative value even.
No, the Red Sox’s 2020 season is sunk if they trade Betts.
@JoeBrady trading for Joc only makes sense if you are actively trying to win a championship in 2020. If the Red Sox were doing that this thread wouldn’t exist.
I disagree strongly. If Verdugo, Joc & Maeda replace Betts, Price, and essentially JBJ, and the extra money saved (or obtained via a JBJ trade) resulted in a legit #4 SP, we have to be better off than if we kept Betts & Price.
When this all started, I wanted to trade Betts because I didn’t feel competitive with the NYY. But with injuries to Hicks, and especially to Paxton, I’m starting to feel competitive again.
However, even if I am wrong, Joc simply becomes an attractive trade chip in July. Pederson is better than Castellanos, and Detroit got two decent chips for him when he was traded.
With incentives Maeda can earn up to an additional $10 million annually and he earns $1 million more per year if he is traded.
You left off this part of their post.
annual roster bonus: $150,000 for making Opening Day roster
$6.5M annually in performance bonuses based on games started: $1M each 15, 20 GS. $1.5M each for 25, 30, 32 GS
$3.5M annually in performance bonuses based on innings pitched: $250,000 each for 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190 IP. $750,000 200 IP
assignment bonus: $1M with each trade
@JoeBrady answer this question if all of those guys would win the Red Sox more games than Betts and Price in 2020, not to mention being controlled longer and costing less money, why would the Dodgers even consider making that trade?
Because the answer invalidates your last comment, I won’t hold my breath on you answering.
And Joc won’t be worth nearly as much as the deadline as he is now because the acquiring team will only get him for 2 months as opposed to a full season and can’t QO him.
Jim, may I answer you question.
The Red Sox are weaker in 2020 and stronger in 2021 and 2022.
There you go. They need to make their roster stronger in 2020 if they want to have any hope of contending. If they want to punt on 2020 in order to add to the farm and reset their tax penalty that’s fine but if so, trading for Joc Pederson (who is a rental like Betts) makes no sense for them. Negative sense even.
I answered this elsewhere. Using his bonuses, and his 2019, the cost is ~ $8M. Still affordable. And even if we are out of it, if he is still performing at that level, we can easily trade him again at the deadline/
Because the answer invalidates your last comment, I won’t hold my breath on you answering.
——————————————————–
1-I have answered every question of yours. I have no clue why you responded like that.
2-The answer is that the LAD are only concerned with the upgrade that Betts provides. It was always going to be an overpayment on their part. Most prospects for vets are overpayments.
3-You cannot compare how sets of players will affect two different teams with two different rosters. The fits are different. Assuming this trade takes place. Joc is much more valuable to the RS than he would be to the LAD.
4-It’s not a hard calculation. Add up the WARs from the two sets of players, and let me know what they add up to. But you should be able to eyeball the players to know how close the talent is.
If the Red Sox are trying to get under the cap, 8M is not affordable. And if they are not trying to get under the cap, why trade Betts and Price.
From the outside looking in, this is all about getting under the cap.
They need to make their roster stronger in 2020 if they want to have any hope of contending.
——————————————————–
Let me add up the fWARS for you:
Betts (6.8) + Price (1.9) + JBJ (2.0) = 10.7
Verdugo (3.1) + Maeda (1.8) + Joc (3.3) = 8.2
So we lose 2.5 WAR on the players, but become $18M under the payroll cap. Add to that the savings from replacing JBJ, which won’t be less than $8M. That gives us $26M to replace the 2.5 WAR we lose.
“And even if we are out of it, if he is still performing at that level, we can easily trade him again at the deadline.”
Like I said, Joc won’t have as much trade value at the deadline as he does now. So the Red Sox would be buying high and selling low — no reason for them to do that.
“The answer is that the LAD are only concerned with the upgrade that Betts provides.”
It’s really hard to take you seriously when you talk out of both sides of your mouth. In your last comment you said that this trade would be an immediate upgrade to the Red Sox’s roster. Now you are saying it would be an immediate upgrade to the Dodgers roster. Which one is it? Or is it just whichever one suits you narrative at that time?
“Assuming this trade takes place. Joc is much more valuable to the RS than he would be to the LAD.”
No, assuming this trade takes place, Joc has negative value to the Red Sox. Their 2020 season is sunk without Mookie so all Joc would be doing is costing them money and hurting their draft position.
“It’s not a hard calculation. Add up the WARs from the two sets of players, and let me know what they add up to. But you should be able to eyeball the players to know how close the talent is.”
Again. WHY would the Dodgers give up more immediate WAR than they are getting back when the players they are giving up are controlled longer and cost less money? That would be making their team demonstrably worse both now AND later.
No one is going to come close to taking Price’s salary. JBJ makes 11 million, I don’t know who would take that salary.
I don’t know where you get 18 million under the cap.
@JoeBrady
“So we lose 2.5 WAR on the players, but become $18M under the payroll cap. Add to that the savings from replacing JBJ, which won’t be less than $8M. That gives us $26M to replace the 2.5 WAR we lose.”
If that’s the case the Dodgers wouldn’t make this trade they would just spent $26m (won’t cost that much) to sign someone who is worth 2.5 WAR to replace the upgrade they’d get from Mookie and Price.
Sorry little buddy but there is just no way the Red Sox trade Betts and win more games in 2020 than 2019.
If the Sox were to take on Joc then they would definitely need to trade (or cut) JBJ. By adding Verdugo, the entire Red Sox OF now bats LH, and they have 5 lefties in the lineup. Adding Joc just compounds this issue.
I don’t see the jbj vs joc batting side being an issue in any hypothetical.
I’ve always supported jackie, but, aside from a hopeful hot streak for a short time in a given year he hits so poorly nobody cares what side of the plate he’s hitting from for strategy purposes.
So either you have a problem with verdugo being a lefty playing with benny, or, you dont. Nobody plans strategy around jackie’s bat.
And it’s about getting YOUNG talent as well so they can build the next winner around Devers, Xander, Verdugo, Mata, etc. Adding Joc or Maeda blows this plan up. They want ML ready prospects in their early to mid 20’s if they do this deal.
Verdugo is your YOUNG talent. In case you forgot, there’s still guys who are older or nearing free agency (sale, eovaldi, erod, moreland etc).
This isn’t a blow it up and rebuild. You still want to CONTEND NOW.
Look, you want to cut payroll and put the best product out now, you mix vets with youngings.
Whose got a better bat on a 1 yr deal – jbj or joc? If you slip from contention which of the two has a better chance of flipping at the deadline?
I’d love to find a rookie equivalent of sale/price in this trade. It’s not being offered by anyone, not the dodgers, not the padres, and no 3rd or 4th party team.
So, do you dive 15m under the cbt taking youth in verdugo and joc+maeda to fill out the most competitive roster you can field?
Or do you skip the deal, roll with what you have, blow the cbt for now, and hope to either contend or find someone to take guys at the deadline?
One helps you next offseason, to acquire at this year’s deadline if need be, all while offering a legitimate chance at the postseason in 2020. The other you literally hope what you have is good enough because ownership isn’t throwing extra cash on top of this roster, it’s why no substantial offseason weakness corrections happened thus far.
“This isn’t a blow it up and rebuild. You still want to CONTEND NOW.”
Bull. If the Red Sox wanted to CONTEND NOW, they wouldn’t trade Betts. They wouldn’t DARE!
“Whose got a better bat on a 1 yr deal – jbj or joc? If you slip from contention which of the two has a better chance of flipping at the deadline?”
The correct answer is Mookie Betts.
? Is in 2020 do you get 2019 or 2018 Betts. If you ignore the inflated Fenway stats these dodger guys aren’t that big of a step down from Betts. Now if it’s 2018 Betts then forget about it. But it would take 2018 Betts to make playoffs in 2020.
@Lovinmlb there is no way the Red Sox trade Betts and are better in 2020 than 2019. It won’t happen.
Never said they would be.
Sometimes I think these front office boys like to look like they’re cute and earning their pay by pulling of this 3 way deal BS,
Actually they are pulling a four way trade. The Dodgers and Red Sox need to lose payroll. The Angels can absorb some and the Twins can absorb some.
Just because you don’t see the complexities doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
And just because “you” see complexities doesn’t mean they do exist.
They exist. By your earlier post, you completely missed one of them.
You’re wasting your time on this website.
You should clearly be working as an Assistant MLB Complexity Analyst.
The world and certainly the MLB needs more people like you to thread needles and avert complexity issues now between 4 teams let alone 3.
Not to mention the complexity of how one teams complexity impacts numerous other teams complexities not withstanding their own.
All kidding aside you can find yourself chasing your tail on this issue LOL.
But you are definitely a bright guy and I appreciate your input.
Yes, Chasing your tail is correct. We have limited information and we try to put that together the best we can.
Calling it here and now. The trade is going to fall through.
I doubt it. It’s possible of course, but I doubt it.
“Calling it” just after you read an article suggesting exactly what you’re calling? Bold.
My contact in the Red Sox FO says the trade isn’t any closer to being done now than it was 3 days ago.
Plain and Simple, the Red Sox need to dump 43 mil in Salary, more than the Dodgers need Mookie Betts.
If I’m the Twins, I tell the Red Sox to go talk to the Dodgers about additional compensation. They traded Graterol to the Dodgers for Maeda & the Dodgers then flipped him as a part of the Betts’ package. I wouldn’t send the Red Sox anything in addition if I was the Twins.
That’s how I see it too.
There is no way the Twins give up more than Graterol for Maeda
Amen
This is turning out to be a disaster. I wonder if Boston wants a different player or if it’s an additional player. I think the Twins can afford to throw in a 2nd tier arm like Griffin Jax
This is turning out to be a disaster. I wonder if Boston wants a different player or if it’s an additional player. I think the Twins can afford to throw in a 2nd tier arm like Griffin Jax
Maeda is not enough of an impact piece for the twins to be throwing in additional pieces on TOP of their #3 prospect. Twins didn’t gain a ton in this deal, the Red Sox are the ones from the needy perspective needing to dump payroll. Twins have no reason to give up anyone additional and it’s a front office fail if they do.
This is going to go down as the big trade that almost was.
Minnesota should not be asked to add more to this deal. As Eric stated above, Minn traded Graterol to LA for Maeda, so he was technically Dodgers property when he was flipped to Boston. If LA likes the upside of Graterol, they should keep him and throw in Gonsolin instead. If LA thinks that is too much, Boston can send a lower level prospect back to balance the trade.
I don’t like the idea of the Sox getting Maeda. Their goal here is to get young, controllable assets with upside. Maeda only checks the controllable box. Boston definitely needs a quality, young pitcher back in this deal. I wonder if Boston would pivot back to San Diego if this deal falls completely apart. Wouldn’t that be something! It just can’t include Myers.
Except the Twins acquisition of Maeda also is not finalized. Meaning Graterol is still a Twin. If the Red Sox want more than Graterol from the Twins, the Twins would either have to pay up another prospect or bow out of the deal. Personally, if they’re only giving up Graterol in the deal, I like it for their side. But if I were them I’d just back out if Boston wants more. Boston and LA are the two teams who vehemently want the deal done. It helps the Twins, sure. But Boston gets their precious salary relief and prospects while LA gets the superstar. If I were the Twins I’d just say “This is what we’re willing to give, take it or leave it.”
What I am saying is if LA is happy with Graterol for Maeda, then it’s up to LA to switch out the prospects going back to Boston. If the sole reason for them trading Maeda was to get the prospect for Boston then maybe they don’t do this deal, but if I were LA (with their aging bullpen) I’d seriously consider doing this deal with Minn even if Boston walks away.
@dorothy – you answered your own question. Clearly LA isn’t interested in graterol or they would’ve done the deal previously.
Maeda is better depth because he’s capable of starting, got more pitch variety than graterol, and, doesn’t have the health question marks with the prior TJ and shoulder issues in the recent past.
For a well rounded roster, as LA I keep maeda over graterol.
All three teams agreeing to the terms of a three team deal is what makes a three team deal. This isn’t a two team then flip to a another party after the first party is established. That would be two, two team deals.
I knew this would be in Minnesota’s court.
Fully agree!
Na I think they should have LA throw in Bellinger, Seager, May, Kershaw and Gonsolin. Seems fair for a… oh sorry I’m being satirical. That’s not exactly how trades work. Twins knew of his condition and are held liable of their part of the deal. Even if the trade is through LA, if they can’t luster the deal everyone walks empty handed. So the extra piece has to be through them.
Maeda is also the most team friendly deal structure I’ve seen for a SP.
He literally gets paid based on health and production, because if he isn’t getting results, he doest start or hit innings thresholds.
You get control for almost as long as a rookie SP trade asset. You have a track record and know what he can put out against mlb caliber hitters. You only pay for what reasonable production comes out there. I’d love to slot him in at number 4 in boston’s rotation over some unknown quantity rookie.
This is ridiculous. The Twins can’t catch a break on trades. They get f’d on Dyson and get nothing out of it, and now because of the lazy Boston front office on not doing due diligence on everything that was public knowledge, that now it’s ok to just turn your back on the deal and everything is fine? Total bs on all of this. I hope Falvey and Levine don’t cave into this nonsense. If Bos and LA want this deal to get done, then they can’t be that demanding on the Twins or else it’s on the Dodgers to make up the difference and I’m sure they’re not thrilled on that.
This is some epic fan fiction
Right. This is a must do for the dodgers and Red Sox. The twins are a supplemental piece because they’re getting an ok arm out of the deal.
In no way, shape, or form, should they be funding this deal with their prospects without getting something better than Maeda in return
FACT
seeing the twins said that he would be in the bullpen for this year but moving to the rotation in 2021 how were the sox to know if there was a medical issue that makes the move to the rotation iffy until after the deal is worked out? no medical records can be looked at until the deal is agreed upon. and then all deals are subject to medical review.
You mean to tell me Boston didn’t go over medical stuff before they agreed to aquire a player? Or was the report of the trade premature?
Report was premature.
No trade happened. When they got to medical record review stage, something about graterol didn’t pass muster.
Remember Brady Aiken? 1st rd choice that the Astros didnt like how his tendon looked and felt it had a durability risk, signing didn’t happen?
Could be similar. It’s one thing to know TJ happened. It a whole other thing to examine what things inside the arm look like and determine what you feel the longevity is there based on what you see.
No team announced any trade. Someone leaked it due to the teams and fact betts/price were involved.
There was no final agreed trade, just a proposal subject to due diligence. Sort of like having an offer on a house, doing an inspection, then saying either you need a concession based on the findings or cancel it.
What? You do medicals after? Can you imagine the strategic risk of showing medicals of all the players that people might want?
When the trade was announced, it clearly stated that the deal was agreed to, pending medical reviews. So I don’t think anyone purposely did anything disingenuous here (like Preller did with Pomeranz in the Boston trade).
It sounds like the Boston medical staff reviewed Graterol’s films and determined his arm would not hold up long as a starter given the stress the extra innings would put on it. Teams don’t give out medical info ahead of time (it might even be illegal to do so with HIPPA laws), so this is just a case where a team followed its process and didn’t like what they found.
but they were getting him knowing the Twins had already publicly moved him to the bullpen.. so they were getting what the Twins sold as a reliever.. there was no promise he was going to start…
That makes no difference to Boston how Minnesota intended to use him in 2020. Boston is looking for a starting pitcher (which Graterol was all season in the minors). So they did this deal with the intention of him being in their rotation. After reviewing his medical records, the doctors determined that he wasn’t likely to hold up as a starter given what they saw, so that significantly reduced his value in Boston’s eyes. While Minnesota did say they planned to use him in the bullpen this year, they did not say “because his arm probably won’t hold up as a starter”. That is the issue here.
Also, the Twins said they planned to move him back into the rotation in 2021, but felt he could help the team more as a reliever in 2020.
I wouldn’t doubt that the report was premature. The goal of the media isn’t to be factual anymore, it’s more about who can report it first.
hand red sox cheaters some spare change!
this deal doesnt happen. Too much negative reaction from the fan base.
The deals are agreed upon before seeing any official medical reports. That’s why the players must pass the physicals post agreement.
Gotta love the jump-the-gun Picture of Mookie in the Dodgers home uniform yet the blurred out background is really Fenway.
Do you guys like these Photoshopped anticipatory pics? I don’t think I do.
Boom goes the dynamite! Wilmer Flores is crying somewhere right now..
I think the deal still gets done. Dodgers throw in a couple of lower tier prospects like Marshall Kasowski and Conner Wong and the deal is done.
Alright now I officially don’t like Boston, this is a trade you agreed to. Now you’re trying to pull some BS when a guy passed his physical and you think you can get more? Manfred needs to step in and finalize this thing. A deal is a deal.
Did Graterol pass his physical? I haven’t seen those reports.
The deal was agreed to, pending medical reviews. Clearly stated by all parties when they announced this deal. With some trades, they don’t announce it ahead of time so they can get the medical reviews done before making it public. Since this trade was so high profile and had media swarming every day for updates, they released the announcement with the caveat of medical reviews were pending before the deal was officially finalized. Nothing disingenuous about it.
Keep dreaming Christian. A trade is always done pending a physical
just because a player passes his teams physical it doesnt mean there is nothing wrong with him. Could be that the twins said yes he can start and the physical says he cant start for a couple of years and needs to be babied in the bullpen. that would make it worth holding up for the sox.
and the infamous player to be named later.. or as I call them the PBJS ( peanutbutter and Jelly sandwich..)
The Twins front office clowns try to pull one over on Red Sox nation. Now they’re going to have to phony up more for a slightly above average journeyman pitcher.
Twins had announced they were moving him to the pen over a week ago… he wasn’t promised as a starter.. that wasn’t where the Twins had him slotted..
And what the twins felt they needed to slot him as has nothing to do with anything here.
Graterol spent his minors time as a starter. Boston needs and wants a starter.
Chris sale was a starter in the minors. Chicago had him start out as a reliever. Was that supposed to mean he wasn’t capable of ever being a starter and everyone was supposed to assume that?
Clearly no.
Medical review/diligence is to make sure a player’s medical condition meets what a team expected to get in the deal.
Apparently there is (some) unknown issue here that we aren’t told due to confidentiality/privacy.
All that matters is, one party said the medical review wasn’t satisfactory. Now the other parties have to decide what to offer to offset the objection.
Starting to sound like this trade may not happen. Everyone back to their original teams.
Braves need to swoop in and blow this up. They can and it’s in their interest come October. Get a 3 way going and include San Diego – to make LAD’s season a long and difficult one. Give Red Sox a young starter with high ceiling and have SD pitch in a solid high level OF prospect. SD sends 1 or 2 low level high upside players to Braves to replenish low level pipeline. Mookie to SD. Sox can send Price in separate deal or include to land with Braves and $$$ offset. Ender can go to Sox
Angler – in your scenario who gets stuck with myers, or more importantly, who absorbs the salary?
SD isn’t taking mookie’s $$$ with wil’s $$$ on the books.
BOS doesn’t want the $$$, it’s the only, ONLY real reason to trade betts, to clear the payroll and swap into cheaper controllable players while getting under the cbt line.
ATL isn’t giving away money for free in addition to a mlb ready SP, then only getting back two really low level prospects in return.
That deal blows up over myers $$$.
not really if the sox took myers and money from SD and atlanta took less money from the sox for price could still work out close to the same amount below tax threshold for sox.
Boston needs to complete this deal more than the other teams. if I’m the dodgers or twins i know that. have the twins throw in their 30th ranked prospect so Boston can save face and call it a day.
Boston can’t complete the deal without getting a SP to plug into the rotation. There’s a hole there and it needs to be filled.
You’ve got a better chance of boston cutting MIN out of the deal and taking maeda plus a very low ranked la prospect back instead of graterol and a lottery pick.
If graterol can’t stand up to being a SP he can’t fill boston’s requirement for the trade.
In an ideal world you’d like to think when a deal is reported that the deal has been done and that the press are reporting the deal correctly and that due diligence has been done on each player’s health before it’s released to the press.
You’d also like to think that a reporter could get each team on the record of what actually happened rather than what’s just banter.
But I guess that’s asking too much.
At this point I don’t know what to believe until a deal is actually signed on paper.
So I’m going to wait until I see the teams actually signing a legal document making a trade official.
Guess this is a lesson for all of us on this website.
It’s called TRADE RUMORS and not TRADE FACTS.
The media actually was spot on when they reported this deal. It clearly stated that a deal had been agreed to PENDING MEDICAL REVIEWS. With all the interest and media coverage around this, it’s not surprising it was announced ‘early’ as many other sizable MLB trade have been in the past. It’s rare that teams find medical concerns that could unwind the deal but certainly not unprecedented.
It’s just ODD that this has become an issue.
And yes, as you correctly stated above, PENDING MEDICAL REVIEWS.
But it just looks so bad the the Red Sox, Twins and Dodgers either don’t really KNOW everything about a player beforehand or that maybe they are deceiving each other.
It brings to mind the due diligence on Aaron Hernandez from the Patriots and how much effort each team puts into investigating each player thoroughly beforehand.
And yet here we are?
Is it asking too much that the medical reviews be done before a deal is announced?
What’s the point of announcing a deal when it’s not a deal?
It’s counting your chickens before they hatch.
And to see all that potentially wasted “expert analysis” on how the Dodgers have already won the World Series with this trade.
It just makes everyone look bad.
Now the deal has to get done because it’s been announced.
Or everyone has egg on their face.
So in essence we may get a bad deal just to save face?
Normally the medical review is just a formality. It looks like the Twins were saying something about Graterol that the medical records are not saying. Personally it looks to me like the Twins said yeah he could start for you this year and the medical report says no to starting for at least a year if ever. So my guess is the Sox are asking for another minor league player to make up the difference in him being a reliever and not a starter. Now there may be a chance that he could start but if that chance is 2-3 years away then the deal makes no sense as is.
If this falls apart can you imagine the players having to go back to their original teams? Mookie would be fine and leave at the end of the season. Price on the other hand would be as disgruntled as any player possibly could…..it’s going to be interesting
Price has known all offseason his deal was being shopped. There’s been plenty of stories. He’s been quoted giving the standard lines about there being a business side to things and you control what you can, go along with what you cant.
Why don’t the Red Sox just get Maeda instead of Gatorade?
They’ll essentially be getting Price-like production based on his last 2 seasons.
“Why don’t the Red Sox just get Maeda instead of Gatorade?”
Maybe they’re dehydrated, or even just thirsty?
Probably because of the potential 12 million dollar salary.
Which, again, is another reason twins hold the cards in this deal and shouldn’t be pointing up more prospects.
As a RS fan, I’d be open to that. I’d rather have a healthy Gaterade, even with the question of whether or not he’d be a starter, than Maeda. But I also wouldn’t make it a deal-breaker. And like I said earlier, if I could arrange to have LAD throw in either Joc or Stripling, I’d be all over it.
If Maeda to the Twins was a seperate trade then the Twins are not liable to add compensation to the Red Sox the Dodgers are. Perhaps knowing this is why the Dodgers are trying to get additional prospects from the Angels in the Joc Pederson trade.
My speculation is this:
Dodgers offered verdugo to the red sox plus maeda. Either the sox or dodgers, at boston’s lack of interest in maeda, discussed what MIN would offer for maeda.
Mechanically picture maeda as passing through boston for trade purposes, but effectively moves LA->MIN.
Based on the range of offers, boston was able to state what they would be interested in accepting from MIN.
Upon completing medical review, boston decided graterol (their identified return) failed to meet medical expectations, and isn’t sufficient return for Maeda as the balance of their compensation.
That is why the ask is from MIN, and not LA.
Just my guess.
Now mechanically picture Chain Bloom hanging up on the Dodgers FO in the first place, and high-fiving his assistant.
The Red Sox already had a great deal on the table. Now they want more?
No, the red sox said the medical review, A KEY CONTINGENCY built into the trade, was unsatisfactory.
Since the contingency was not satisfied, they are requesting a concession to waive the deficiency.
If you’re buying a house, and the mechanical systems fail inspection, you ask for a concession or the deal is off.
Same thing.
Even if Graterol is a complete bust getting Verdugo for one year of Betts and shedding half of Price’s awful contract is about fair.
Regardless of whether some agrees with your opinion of what a reasonable return is, the problem is the hole in boston’s rotation after trading price.
They NEED a SP to plug in, and the FA market doesn’t present an acceptable remaining option.
That was to be graterol’s role, and is 1/3 of the requirement of a trade:
Replacement for betts; replacement for price; salary relief sufficient to get below the cbt.
If a mookie/price trade doesn’t fill all 3 either directly (or accounting for ability to sign a current FA of acceptable ability) it’s a no go.
Their 2020 season is sunk if they trade Betts. Who cares who starts for them in Price’s place?
Why do you say 2020 is automatically sunk without betts?
Is betts the automatic key to the WS trophy?
Can nobody win the ws in 2020 without betts?
If so, 29 teams should be making offers RIGHT NOW. I guess take trout and ohtani back for mookie. They still won’t win but they’ll have some good players for 2021.
The. Offensive. And. Defensive. Production. Of. Mookie. Betts. Is. Replaceable. By. Upgrades. In. Other. Areas.
Betts’ production (at least for 2020) is not replaceable by anyone the Red Sox could get for Betts. If it were, then the other team’s GM needs to be fired for making a trade that makes his team worse both now and later.
The Red Sox finished 2019 12 games back of the 2nd AL wild card and all the other teams vying for wild card spots have improved. How exactly do you expect the Red Sox to make up all that ground after trading arguably the best non-Mike Trout player in the game?
For one, it’s incredibly well documented that starters for boston not named devers or bogaerts underperformed across the board in 2019.
Even with the underperformance, expected w/l calculations had boston supposed to win more games that they did. Part of that was bad luck.
Second, you act as if verdugo would be 0 war talent replacing betts of last year’s 7 war talent. You’re probably looking at 5 or so war production because 1) you get more playing time than the 3.1 he posted in LA, and, 2) th larger RF let’s him accumulate more dwar than he would in LA. Then let’s add the monster and short hop rf wall adding doubles and extra hits when you play 81 in fenway. I don’t think an extra 2 war over what verdugo posted in LA is unreasonable.
So, we need to add 2 war to equal what Mookie takes with him.
JBJ posted 2.0 war with 21hrs with the fenway effect.
Joc posted 3.3 war with 36hrs WITHOUT the fenway effect.
Again, joc had a better BA than JBJ, and, a shade under twice the hrs. I’d bet joc playing 81 in fenway gets some lift from the monster and that wall. I don’t think it’s inconceivable to get 4.0 war.
Right there you tied mookies output.
And yet, now you can debate whether maeda/price are a wash, AND, you’ve saved over $30m.
For $30m I can be just as far over the cbt as keeping mookie, but what can I buy?
Or, I can put the same war on the field, and eliminate the black hole in the batting order named jbj (who I like, but, he’s a weak stick) leading to more run production in general, and be below the cbt.
There you go, I’ve got more upside, a trade chip if you’re failing, we reset the cbt but meet the stated goal of competing while resetting.
You argue elsewhere that verdugo alone even if graterol busts should be return enough, so, why not take extra pieces while remaiming below cbt to try to compete?
You need to remember – #3 on a red sox depth chart could be #6 for someone else. Why would a gm make the trade and not be fired? A player earns zero war while not on the field.
So, your surplus depth piece can be my starter earning war. My replaceable piece can become your #1 starter.
So now you are saying that Verdugo + Joc will win a team more games than Mookie in 2020, not to mention be cheaper and with Verdugo being controlled through 2024? Let me ask you something. If that is true, why would the Dodgers even consider making that trade? Wouldn’t it make more sense to just roll with what they got?
Or are you ready to concede that the Red Sox are sunk for 2020 without Mookie?
I said none of those things. Try reading again.
I said trading mookie/price for verdugo/joc/maeda get the sox below the cbt.
I said doing so allow you to release or trade JBJ to offset maeda’s incentives or get further under cbt.
I also said it is possible, POSSIBLE, for verdugo and joc in fenway to generate roughly the same war as betts and jbj would, and, this would happen while under the cbt.
I also said joc could, COULD, be become a trade chip if out of contention at the deadline.
The redsox are in ZERO way sunk without mookie in 2020, DEPENDING on who chaim brings back.
Mookie/price for verdugo/graterol is, IMO, an inferior package for 2020, 2021, and beyond than verdugo/joc/maeda from a competitiveness point of view.
If this were November then verdugo/graterol could have been a better package, but ONLY if jbj were nontendered and the combined additional 20-something million were spent on a reliable mid rotation fa starter and a decent reliever. That ship has likely sailed.
You could argue still take verdugo/graterol (or similar) and do the unthinkable – take Wil Myers off SD hands if they included 2 mlb ready young starters and a ptbnl throw in for two lottery picks from the bottom of boston’s farm. And even then I still like verdugo/joc/maeda better.
But no, I will never agree 2020 is lost without mookie because it isnt true – his lost production is replaceable if they choose to do so. 2020 is no more a lost season for boston without mookie than it is with him.
“I also said it is possible, POSSIBLE, for verdugo and joc in fenway to generate roughly the same war as betts and jbj would, and, this would happen while under the cbt.”
In that case wouldn’t it make more sense for the Dodgers to just keep Verdugo and Joc? They want to win now and you said that Verdugo and Joc would help them win now more than Betts would.
“I also said joc could, COULD, be become a trade chip if out of contention at the deadline.”
He won’t have nearly as much trade value in July when the acquiring team only gets him for 2 months as opposed to a full season and can’t QO him. The only way involving him in the trade makes sense is if there is a third team, which is exactly what happened.
“The redsox are in ZERO way sunk without mookie in 2020, DEPENDING on who chaim brings back.”
Again. WHY would anyone trade the Red Sox a package that would make them better NOW for a one-year rental and an underwater contract? That’s the type of move that gets a GM fired.
“But no, I will never agree 2020 is lost without mookie because it isnt true – his lost production is replaceable if they choose to do so.”
No it is not replaceable. At least not with anything that is available right now in free agency or in trade for Betts. And they Sox would have to do more than replace Mookie’s production to compete. They would need to replace his production + 12 extra wins plus probably more because all the other AL Wild Card contenders have improved this offseason.
Checkmate.
Jim, you don’t seem to grasp the simple concept of playing time.
LA has an excess of OF capable of putting up decent war. But there’s only 3 OF positions, and no DH. Converting two 3.5 war players into one 7 war player puts more generating capacity on-field.
Boston has a shortage of high war OF, one option slotting in a DH.
Example of arbitrary numbers.
Team a has OF capable of 3, 4, 5, 4 war, but 3 slots. Max they can ever put on field at once are 13 war.
Team b has OF capable of 6, 1, 4, 4 war, and 4 slots. Max can access it all, for 15 war.
Let’s make a trade. Team a swaps a pair of 3&4 war players for team bs 6 war player.
Now, team a has 3 options, of 6,5&4 war. All are on field. They now play 15 war, and are 2 war better.
Now team b has 5 options, 3,4,1,4,4 and still plays 4. They still put 15 war on the field.
See how it works?
Team b can get something extra – salary relief? Prospects? Additional player? That is their incentive to give up the premium player.
Team a gives up 2 guys that might combined be better than what they get back, BUT, you can’t play them all at once. With a premium player consolidating production in one slot, they don’t have to. They have more production out on the field so they come out ahead.
THAT’S WHY a gm would trade two guys for one player who gives the same production. It’s situation and circumstance specific, but, can put greater ability on the field.
You also talk out both sides of your mouth. You’re just saying the sox can’t compete – the sox can’t compete with mookie because keeping him stands pat and doesn’t do anything to bridge this gap you argue exists, but, then replacing him with an equal package of players that at least gets under the cbt and gives a potential trade chip doesnt do enough in your opinion to bridge the gap either
No, what team b would do is trade prospects for the other team’s 3-4 WAR player and keep their superstar 6 WAR player. No team with any intention of contending at all is trading a 6-WAR player for anything.
And even in the scenario you describe, team b trading 6 WAR and receiving 7 WAR in return (with one of the players they are receiving being controlled for 5 years as opposed to 1), they wouldn’t be receiving prospects or shedding salary in the trade. It would be the other way around.
Also, it’s great for the Dodgers to have both Joc and Verdugo around. That way they have a quality replacement to step in if a starter gets injured or struggles.
Basically what you are asking the Dodgers to do is give up prospects and take on a bunch of salary in exchange for a net zero increase in production in their OF. Why would they do that?
Atl makes a good argument. However and a big problem to his theory and if you wanted to crush his argument is who do the Sox put in vs left handers? If sox face righties all season then Joc might hit 50 hrs, see ya Mookie we won’t miss ya. I don’t think that is going to happen though.
And even if the production was the same which is just shown is not unless you believe these guys will start crushing lefties, the Dodgers would still do the trade. It’s more about public relations and making money than a baseball trade. Plus thinking Price would benefit from a change of scenery so that factors in as well.
Checkmate! Price isn’t a underwater contract with Boston paying half of it. I must say though that Jim is pretty damn smart.
For a goat.
He has no argument. If Verdugo + Pederson equaled Betts in 2020, the Dodgers wouldn’t DARE make that trade.
And the Dodgers have one of the smartest front offices in baseball. Love ’em or hate ’em there’s a reason they have a ROY finalist every season despite never drafting higher than #18. They’re not going to make a trade that they know will hurt them because of “public relations” or whatever.
Price for 3/$48 is about neutral value. And that’s assuming no decline.
Good luck ALT sox –
His problem is he thinks a team with Joc Verdugo Benni Denvers Bogaerts JDM Moreland Chavis Vazquez and a little extra money is a tanking team-
You will not get past that disconnect
JD – I’ve tapped out on this one.
It’s hard to have intelligent dialogue with someone like Jim who looks at the 26 man as if a gm is playing fantasy baseball for points.
That’s preller thinking, and we can see how far that got him so far.
Back to the other entertainment – this 3, 4, 5 team impending trade – whatever it winds up as….
@JD Candello the team you are referring to only won 84 games last year even with Betts. If they want to make the postseason in 2020, they need to ADD players like Betts. Not subtract them.
@AtlSoxFan I’ll tell you what’s not going to happen. The Red Sox trading Betts and it making them better for 2020. After 2020? Obviously because Betts is a rental. The Red Sox could even bring him back next offseason. But they’re already going to be worse in 2020 than 2019. Trading Betts will make them even worse.
Of course. If you are trading for a #33 prospect, and you find out he is injured, you don’t just say ‘sure, no problem’.
Why are the Twins even involved!!?? The Dodgers are way overpaying the Twins for this “prospect” (who’s really fat).
I just don’t get how the Twins shoehorned themselves into this deal and came away like bank robbers!
The Dodgers aren’t getting him. The Red Sox are. If it goes through that is…
Says they guy who commented about the players weight?! Graterol has a 100 mph heater!
@jorge
The Dodgers are way overpaying the Twins for this “prospect” (who’s really fat).
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He’s not really fat. He’s Clemens or Joba Chamberlain type of fat.
The famous PLAYER TO BE NAMED LATER ………. Crash Davis
jessecc08 above lays out the most significant fact that is driving discussions at this point: the Red Sox need a trade to take place more than the other two teams. The Twins and LAD knew that fact going into these negotiations and that fact hasn’t changed.
The LAD acquired Graterol for Maeda because Graterol is the player that Bloom wanted in addition to Verdugo to finalize this deal. The LAD knew even less than Bloom about Graterol’s medicals because they had no interest in acquiring him for any purpose other than to satisfy Bloom. Bloom has every right to want something more or in place of Graterol but he needs to look to the Twins, not the LAD. If the Twins are unwilling to satisfy Mr. Bloom then he needs to turn to Mr. Friedman and ask for something comparable to Maeda but not more. If Bloom wanted Maeda, the deal would have been consummated long ago. The LAD may well be willing to keep Maeda and offer Bloom a player that they, the LAD, value to be equal to or less then Maeda. The bottom line is that Friedman needs this deal to take place far less than Bloom. My money is on Mr. Bloom blinking before Mr. Friedman.
The. Dodgers. Never. Acquired. Graterol.
With all due respect, I think we are saying the same thing about Graterol. The RS issues over Graterol’s medical condition are with the Twins–not the LAD. WE may disagree over how motivated/compelled/pressured each team is to make a deal; but, the RS need to deal with the Twins if they have a problem now about Graterol being insufficient compensation for them to make this trade.
Dude, that’s not how a three team deal works. You make it seem like MIN doesn’t know there’s something going on between LAD and BOS. Or like MIN is holding on line two for LAD to find out BOS wants Graterol.
“You make it seem like MIN doesn’t know there’s something going on between LAD and BOS”…
No, actually I am saying the opposite. In these negotiations, the Twins knew full well that Graterol was of interest to the RS–not the LAD. The RS problem is with the Twins, not the LAD. It’s the RS who most want/need this deal. The LAD have all the leverage as the RS do not want to delay trading Mookie and: 1) being unable to reset their tax liability and, 2) maximize Mookie’s value by ensuring he caries a comp pick with him if he doesn’t re-sign with the team that trades for him.
Boston’s front office is a joke. Graterol’s (past) arm and shoulder issues are public knowledge. The Twins also have said he will not be starting this year and coming out of the pen. Why are Sox throwing up the red flag now? The owner must have felt the heat from the fans and told the gm to renegotiate.
There’s nothing to say it’s the fact there was a TJ or a shoulder issue itself that is the dealbreaker.
Many players have TJ and have no lingering effects after. Likewise, players have shoulder issues that dont affect their future.
Every body is slightly different though. there’s internal structural issues you can’t read about in the news, you need to review imaging and reports, maybe examine the player.
My favorite comp is Brady Aiken was drafted 1st and expected to be capable of playing in mlb. Then imaging showed internal structure that (to the experts examining it) led them to give an opinion there was too much risk it wouldn’t hold up to the rigors of being a SP. Ultimately, he wasn’t signed.
You want to blame someone in your head, fine. But there’s a reason there’s a medical review contingency in these deals. To get mad at someone for exercising the rights they bargained into a deal is kind of ridiculous IMO, but, to each their own.
Why are Sox throwing up the red flag now?
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What happens in a trade is that, after the teams agree to a trade, they exchange the medical reports on the players. Verdugo was all types of hurt at the end of the year, but apparently the RS doctors saw no l/t concerns.
But something on Gatorade’s MRIs look worse than expected. The idea of his injuries being public knowledge are absolutely meaningless.
The enemy of the good is the perfect. The Red Sox have, with the initial trade, accomplished their primary goal of offloading contracts and getting some upside. Will they overreach and have someone walk away, or will they be able to extract more?
If the Twins add another top 15 prospect with Graterol, we riot in the streets Hancock.
If I’m the twins im not adding anything. They are getting the least benefit of anyone. Either the dodgers pay up or deal is off.
I believe the dodgers will pay up. The Dodgers fans expect mookie, sox fans are happy keeping mookie. Let’s not pretend like the sox are poor.
Perhaps they pivot back to the padres though that wouldn’t get them under the cap but would provide the talent they need.
You’re joking. Dodgers least to blame here. Sox picked out their prospect who had a history. Sox dealing in bad faith or Twins hiding other things on medical? Probably neither but I don’t see how the Dodgers pony up more. Sox more desperate to cut payroll. Maybe getting cold feet. Anyhow as a fan I would not mind pulling the trade back. I like Betts but I would bet that the Dodgers don’t re-sign him if they traded for him sh o an expensive rental. Plus I don’t like the Pederson-Stripling trade do maybe it’s best it didn’t work out.
Didnt blame the dodgers but I see them as the team to blink.
Their fans already have betts in the lineup. Sox fans want to protest.
Twins certainly dont have much skin in the game.
Dodgers will give in or no deal. That will hinge on how high of a quality prospect do the sox want.
Dodgers are in a rough spot here.
@Simodine This move is being driven by the Red Sox. The Dodgers will win their division with or without this move. The Red Sox will not win their division with or without this move. The Dodgers are the only possible landing spot for Betts and half of Price’s annual contract. If the Red Sox cannot make this move than the are stuck over the luxury tax. and have no flexibility moving forward. The only other possible destination was the Padres where the Red Sox would need to take the Wil Myers contract, keep Price and still be over the tax threshold. The Red Sox need this deal to happen more than the Dodgers.if they want a contending team in the near future.
False.
The Red Sox can go over the luxury tax this season and then be under it next season.
They will just have to pay up in 2020..
After this year, the Sox will have $45 MM – $70 MM coming off of the books (Betts, JBJ, likely JDM, Perez and Workman), They can easily be under the tax.
They can also trade Price (2 years left), Eovaldi (2 years left) and the horrible Castillo contract ends (this is only a cash flow situation, but they will save $14 MM in cash).
If the Twins/Dodgers don’t sweeten the pot? The Sox should just keep Mookie and Price and try to make the playoffs.
Unless the NL goes to the DH next year, I doubt JDM will opt out. And if the Red Sox get under the cap this year, they’ll have a much better chance of resigning Betts.
Joc would probably play LF with Verdugo in RF and Benny in CF if he is still with the Sox Opening Day. I like Maeda as a #4 starter..
Most AL pitchers are RHanded–so more lefty bats are fine with me.
Benny, Xander, JDM, Joc, Devers, Verdugo, Chavis @ 2 B, Moreland, Vazquez.
So scratch Graeterol or the Dodgers can keep him for a prospect–we get Vertugo and Pederson for Price and Betts. We could take Stripling for a Sox PTBNL.
No, Joc would not play LF because the Red Sox aren’t trading for any one-year rentals. If they wanted an established player with one year left on his contract they would keep the one they have.
If Graterol is not a satisfactory pitching prospect for Boston, Twins should immediately pull him out of a deal and stand pat until a team comes calling with another offer. I expect Boston specifically requested him for the deal, Twins didn’t “push” him on Boston. I still think Boston is making adjustments to their plans as a result of Paxton’s injury. They currently employ several pitchers with injury history.
Fell off track at last sentence – I had meant that Boston currently has several pitchers with previous arm troubles and has also employed them in the past. So it seems interesting that they are now dissatisfied with Graterol. Maybe Texas would flip Allard to Boston and take Maeda.
Finlander- without knowing what about the medical review was unsatisfactory we really don’t know.
I doubt it’s the fact there was TJ in and of itself because, as you say, every club has employed pitchers with prior arm issues.
My assumption would be that it is either how the arm healed from the procedure, or, how something inside looked regarding likelihood of reinjury and/or probable inability to withstand sustained workload that concerned them.
My guess is that the Twins had previously inquired on Maeda’s availability, and were told no. Then the RS insisted that LA take Price. That’s a better fit for LA than Maeda, so the LAD decided that, instead of them kicking in a second prospect like Downs, they could get Minny to do so.
For all we know, maybe MN already offered Gatorade to LAD in exchange for Maeda.
And I think there is a decidedly non-zero chance that you are right on Paxton. If the RS, for example, thought they were 8 games back, the loss of a not-easily replaced guy like Paxton might cut that down to 3 games back, and maybe worth changing plans for.
I’ve been saying this since before the trade. If we add Verdugo & Joc, instead of Betts & JBJ, that might be the best lineup in BB. Our weakest hitter might be Chavis, and he could hit 25-30 HRs.
But we’d need a pitcher back, and i would pay up for either Maeda or Stripling. Along with a top-rated offense, a rotation of Sale, ERod, Eovaldi, Maeda & Perez would re-define thinness, but would be more than reasonable, until injuries hit.
Graterol is the the more crucial piece for the Sox. It was up to the Dodgers to wedge him away. Verdugo will be backing up Rusney Castillo in the minors. Best player dealt Mookie second best Graterol.
Pass the duchie ‘pon the left hand side Zzodikoff.
“Mr. Zzodikoff “what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I’ve ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having heard it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!”
Mookie – 27.7m; Price 32m (x3)
If we shift all of mookie and pay down the thrown around numbers of 48m on price, boston sheds 43.7m to lad.
If you take back verdugo (~500k), joc (8.5m?), and maeda (as a SP just assume he hits 11m of ~14m possible max) thats 20m in new commitments.
But you then at the least can shed 8m+ of jbj by just releasing him if you cant trade him, since arb contracts aren’t fully guaranteed yet.
So, -43.7 in trade, -8m jbj, +20m in trade. Sox drop 31.7 in salary commitments towards cbt, and, could lower that by just slightly controlling how many incentives maeda is allowed to hit this one season.
You flip joc at the deadline if you’re out of contention, you save more. Then JDM picks up a little corner OF with someone else. Big deal.
Point is, sox could take those guys on if they and LAD wanted to cut out the middlemen.
The. Red. Sox. Aren’t. Taking. Joc. Pederson. In. A. Mookie. Betts. Trade.
And I’m pretty sure deliberately stopping Maeda from hitting his incentives is against the rules.
Not against the rules whatsoever Dodgers have done it the last 3 years
What rules. Don’t sign a contract loaded with incentives like that. You knew what you were getting into. Teams limit inning use all the time and players are really powerless to stop them!
Incentives or not, teams are expected to act in good faith wrt vesting options and milestone bonuses.
Against the rules haha. They are his employer. They can move him to bullpen or not play him at all. On top of that he signed the contract with those incentives in it.
Yes. They. Are. If. Available.
At this point, you are just being obstinate. Even if they have no chance, which certainly would have, Maeda is a good-priced SP, which they need, with 4 years of control.
And Joc would still be a fine trade chip come July.
@JoeBrady Joc is basically a known quantity at this point. At the deadline, he will be a known quantity with only 33% as much club control remaining and that the acquiring team can no longer QO.
His trade value is going to drop like a rock between now and the deadline. Not a guy you trade for to be able to flip in July. Like with Betts, you basically have to win a championship in 2020 to make trading for Joc Pederson worth it.
A yes or no will suffice. Will Pederson be worth more, or less, or the same as Castellanos at the trade deadline? He is probably a better players, but even if he is equal, Castellanos still got a decent return.
Joe, I don’t know what answer you are looking for, but less.
BTW does Castillo’s 44million count against the cap?
What cap.
If by Castillo you mean Rusney Castillo in BOS, and by cap you mean the CBT, and by $44m you mean $14m in 2020 salary, the answer is no, it doesn’t count unless he is added back on the 40 man roster.
It was part of a grandfathered exception to a former CBA which couldn’t happen anymore.
There’s no cap
Can I infer that that this MEDICAL REVIEW hangup is designed to extort LAD into giving up more since the world has anointed them world champions in 2020 and now they can’t possibly back out of the deal with expectations that high?
The David Price jinx is already getting the better of LAD.
What if this deal goes through and the Dodgers don’t win?
What if they don’t even make the playoffs?
What if Boston wins it all after dumping Betts and Price?
Imagine Draft Kings gaming bets on that unlikely scenario.
Seriously, how many teams can spend a guaranteed $78MM for a one year rental and a 34 year old pitcher?
Twins thinking they can power their way out of this is funny.
Power their way out of this?? Huh?
Yeah, like the deal is too important for Minnesota to object adding a piece to rectify the discovered inaccuracy. I’m saying they don’t have the power in this case to back off and forfeit the entire deal. I’m saying that Minnesota is the used car Salesman without a signature in this thing.
Seriously, how many teams can spend a guaranteed $78MM
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Actually, their combined salaries are only ~ $43M this year.
Actually, the guaranteed money plus the one year rental works out to be a little more than just this year’s numbers.
Sure, but that’s for two more years after this one. It’s $16M per, which everyone can afford, not just the LAD.
Actually, it is $43M not $78M. RS are sending approximately $50M to Dodgers.
Not many that’s why at around 16m (price) per the sox are better off trading them separately.
Brings in more teams. Certainly a team like the angles would have interest at that aav for price.
Can still get the same or greater returns for betts.
This deal just looks bad for the sox.
As a RS fan, I think the deal looks good for us.
*** THE SOLUTION *** Twins should get creative and include the second prospect Boston requires but ask for Ross Stripling along with Kenta Maeda in return. This would be ideal for a team in need of starting pitching. I really hope this happens!
Not much of a solution since Stripling is already part of a deal with the Angels…..
Get real! And why would the LAD agree to do that?
The dodgers should simply send more to Boston. The twins already gave up too much for what they are getting in this deal. It’s not rocket science. Dodgers have the prospect capital anyways. They can afford to let a least 1 go considering the crazy return they are getting
For a team that needs a solid starter Maeda is a good addition. He is a known quantity, a proven performer. Graterol looks like he has great stuff, but he’s not proven and has had shoulder issues. He could be a great pitcher, he could be a complete bust because of the shoulder. He’s a gamble.
No, the Dodgers should not.
Well, you can’t.
Oh man how awkward would it be for this deal to fall through and Mookie & Price have to report to spring training next week lol
I don’t think so.
Mookie wanted to stay in Boston:
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2020/02/05/mookie-betts-red-sox-trade-quote
The Red Sox fans want Mookie to stay in Boston and he will be absolutely fawned over this season.
David Price has been crabby for 4 seasons. He pitched the Sox to a World Series title after he was lustily booed in the 2018 Divisional Series versus the Yankees (I should know, I was there).
https://apnews.com/36c06ab3ff8f4445bf35488faee56d68/David-Price-flops-again-in-postseason
“Price trudged off the field to a chorus of boos from the Red Sox fans who had cheered him when he took the mound just an inning prior.”
So he will be content making his $32 MM per season.
I really hope the Sox get cold feet and the trade falls through.
You should really hope that Boston gets under the cap and then resigns Betts and they get out from under the Price contract.
There is no ‘cap’, there are luxury tax penalties.
The Boston owners make plenty of money and the Sox are not getting rid of the entire Price contract.
After this season? The Sox will only have two years left of Price and they can always trade him next year.
The Sox can pay the luxury tax bill this season AND re-sign Mookie Betts.
They can also cut JBJ (save $11 MM) and trade JDM (save $23.75 MM) and will be under the luxury tax.
Verdugo and an overweight pitcher with a bad shoulder?
I would rather have Betts and Price.
OK, luxury tax threshold, you really didn’t understand what I meant? And you want to spend someone else’s money the way you seem fit.
It doesn’t matter how you want to spend their money, the only thing that matters is how the Red Sox want to spend their money. And they seem not to want to spend millions of extra dollars on taxes when they can reset the cap (oh sorry, luxury tax) this year.
“There is no ‘cap’, there are luxury tax penalties.”
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Y’all need to stop with this. Everyone in here, or maybe 99% of them, know exactly what people are talking about when the term ‘cap’ is used.
Boston should definitely do their best to ensure this deal does not fall through at this point. Take it from a Jays Fan, we held onto Donaldson heading into 2018 season and he got injured, all we received for him was a pitcher (Merryweather ) who coming off TJ who has only pitched a few minor league innings in 2 years. Rumours have it that the Cards offered Flaherty in the off-season prior=Would LOVE to have him in our rotation now. Can you imagine the backlash now after all the media attention to this deal ,if it falls through and bad luck strikes and Betts gets injured and has no takers at the dead-line. Sox fans who like to see this deal cancelled- careful what you wish for!
I said that at the time, and the same with Baltimore & Machado. The risk is virtually 100% on the downside. I still remember all the posts from the Pirates fans. They that, if the LAD didn’t want to pay an exorbitant price for Vazquez, that PT should just hold onto him.
IMO, if you decide to trade a player, you follow through
Twins should NOT give anything else period! The pitcher we are sending has command of four pitches. Reaches 100. Twins should have kept him
I hope they keep him!
I would rather the Sox deal with the Dodgers directly with their prospects.
Or better yet, have the trade fall completely apart.
If he really had four pitches and reached 100, you’d be starting him instead of Maeda. He has two pitches, and a fringy 3rd.
What’s with the fake photo of Betts in Dodger blue? Not cool. Journalistic outlets should not be legitimizing fake images, even if it’s just for fun.
You must be the life of the party
We’ve come a long way since the air-brushed Topps cards of the 1970s!
I have an airbrushed Nolan Ryan card when he was traded to the Angels.
From afar, this delay looks like nothing more than Boston panicking. Nothing changed in regards to Graterol’s health status. Everything they know now they knew before. But it is a huge trade and they are having second thoughts. They want to get under the luxury threshold, and this trade makes sense for that. It sounds like Betts wants to hit free agency so he will walk at the end of this season. They can hang on to him and hope for a wild card, or trade him for some good, much cheaper guys and then take their shot at signing him as a FA. If they try the wait-and-see with the trade deadline the return will be far inferior.
Makes sense to me to trade him on multiple fronts, but I’m just a lowly fan.
Nothing changed in regards to Graterol’s health status. Everything they know now they knew before.
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Incorrect. Teams are not allowed to inspect another player’s medical records until they have agreed to a deal.