Almost all TV announcers are shades of bad. Most are selling themselves, not putting the game first And most talk to fans as if they’ve never seen a baseball game before. As if at the end of the game the viewers will be asked to take a snap quiz.
When I watch on MLB.TV I usually take one of the radio teams for the audio feed. They put the game first and usually have interesting insights (how many times can we watch a commentator zero in on how a Pitcher grips one of his pitches?…or watch replays of the exploits of an ex-player in the booth?).
With Jerry Remy (Red Sox) gone, the only 2 TV broadcasts I can stomach are whoever does the Giants games (3 guys rotate each game: Jon Miller, Duane Kuiper, Mike Krukow – 2 on TV, 1 on radio) and The Astros because of Harry Kalas’ (long time Phillies announcer) son – Todd – who was raised to put the game first for the fans. Those broadcasts don’t zeros in on things like the sequence of pitches and guessing what the Pitcher will throw next. They know the viewer can see the action. They make the game enjoyable, and interject technical points when it truly means something.
And yes, after listening to Vinnie in LA for 25 years it’s quite difficult to put up with most of the broadcasters.
Samuel, it’s only the National broadcasters who fall into this bucket and in most cases it’s not their fault. They have directives from their producers to dumb-down the game so they can try to capture new / uninformed viewers and turn them into fans. What they don’t realize is that they are alienating the true fans of the game as it’s borderline insulting when they dumb-down the game like that. They also try pit one National announcer against the other over some benign topic or event just to try and get the ratings up.
With that said, the vast majority of local broadcasters are really good and don’t try to placate an uneducated audience. I’m a big fan of Don Orsillo who was unfortunately forced out of the Boston booth and is now in San Diego. When traveling for business, I always try to catch a local broadcast of the game and in most cases, I enjoy it. I’ve watched a lot of Cleveland, Toronto, Philadelphia and Tampa broadcasts and I didn’t find any of them off-putting. The Braves broadcasts are a little annoying but I think that’s the Ted Turner hangover effect. I’m also a big fan of Dennis Eclkersley. He is absolutely one of a kind, but he knows baseball as good as anyone and marches to his own beat.
So I’m a dodger fan and that means I love Joe Davis. Yet Orel is a bad announcer. So the fox WS Joe Davis and John Smotlz was really good and I enjoyed it. I also for some reason like Matt Vasergian.
Second, I like Orel’s enthusiasm and if he was just doing an occasional interview or analysis, I would find his perspective an asset. But while I admired him as a player, as an announcer, I would have to rate him in the bottom 33 percent.
Dave Niehaus, Mariners
Ted Lietner, Padres
Victor Rojas/Mark Gubiza, Angels
T.Brenneman/B.Brenly, D-backs
And I will probably be banned from MLBTR for saying this (and get 1000s of down votes), but I’m the only person in the world that is not a big fan of Vin Scully.
Man the dumb trades people come up with for my A’s . Ok let’s say I’m part of the decision making in Oakland. My goal is to trade our top pieces for young top notch talent . Bohm young , but I don’t want him , because we have Zack Gelof ready to play 3b . I really don’t want the Mets castoff junk for anything . If you want Manaea you better come see with something good .
Agreed most trade proposals are one-sided and dumb, but Bohm could be very useful for Oakland. Could rotate between 3B, 1B, and DH. Gelof is still probably 2 seasons away anyway.
Let’s assume Dodgers keep Vargas to replace Turner in a year.
Dodgers could offer five prospects, 1. Diego Cartaya, 2. A’s choice of Ryan Pepiot or Bobby Miller, 3. Andy Pages, 4. Clayton Beeter, and 5. Gavin Stone, plus throw in middle reliever 6. Victor Gonzalez, in return for two players, 1B Matt Olson, and one pitcher of A’s choice from P Sean Manaea, P Chris Bassitt and P Frankie Montas.
I think the point is that Bohm is a desired asset but matches better with a team other than the A’s. The Marlins would be the perfect team to acquire Bohm for a pitcher but the Phillies and fish are in the same division competing with each other for third so I don’t know that it would be considered. But if the Phillies could flip Bohm to Miami for a pitcher and then sign Kyle Seager, it would make sense to me if it is a good pitcher or pitching prospect. Or make a different deal for Chapman.
Mark P
9:09 Is there a worse trade in recent history than Quintana for Jiminez and Cease?
Mark P
9:09 “OH, I CAN THINK OF ONE” — Pirates fans
–
LOL
The night that trade was made I wrote here that it would cost Neal Huntington his job. Compared it to the trade between Cleveland and Montreal which was pretty much Bartolo Colon for Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, and Grady Sizemore. If Shane Baz performs as well as many think he will, that Pirates trade will be even worse. At least Bartolo pitched decently for the Expos.
Meadows, Glasnow and Baz? But Archer sure missed the target. Does that top Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez to Cubs? I guess so, at least that dumped some salary.
I still think Eloy Jimenez will be better than Austin Meadows.
Another sad trade Pedro Martinez for Delink Desheilds.
The trade questions on Adell were interesting. Do Angels fans actually want to pull the plug on him already? Think he has a great chance at becoming a star player still.
The “trade Adell” phrase has become a punchline in these open chats and now many fans are pretty cheeky with their posts. Most Angel fans understand the guy is a future star.
I have no idea why anyone would think Tommy John should be in the HoF just because he was the first one to have the surgery that now bears his name. Seems to me a HoF induction requires better than just good, to very good, numbers.
Tommy John had a very impressive career and is HOF worthy. He had 288 wins, over 2,200 K’s, a career 3.34 ERA and just under a 70 Career WAR. Longevity is a big part of the HOF too and he pitched for 25 seasons in the majors. That alone is impressive regardless of the breakthrough surgical procedure or not.
No active pitcher has more than 226 wins (Verlander). Tommy John was more than a compiler, he was a Cy Young runner up in the NL (1977) and a Cy Young runner up in the AL (1979). He pitched 26 years and almost 7 innings per start, unlike how starters are coddled now. So yes, 288 wins matters. Tommy John is a borderline Hall of Famer, but my vote would be yes. The fact that the surgery was named after him is a fun fact, but not the difference-maker.
It was a different game in TJ’s day, wins were more representative of a starting pitcher’s talent and success. You didn’t have 5-inning starters or openers or relief pitchers bailing out starters in the 6th inning. Studying the history of the game would help you understand that.
162 complete games for TJ. On a regular basis he accomplished by himself what takes 6-7 pitchers to accomplish today. There’s quite a bit of value in that.
Minor correction: Fangraphs has him at 79.4 WAR. And I think they’re off. In an article on Fangraphs about his HoF candidacy they quote his career WAR at 65.5. It also mentions that he had only 4 seasons of +5 WAR.
BB Ref has him with a 62.1 WAR, and Hall of Fame Stats has him at 61.7. That puts him at 53rd on the career list. But WAR is a cumulative stat, and over a 26-year career that averages out to a 2.39 WAR per season.
He’s tied for 195th for career CGs. And I think his longevity actually hurts his candidacy. Some of his totals look good, but when you look at how they average over 26 years, not so much. 11.7 wins per season, and 86.3 SOs per season.
CY votes don’t count for much. He finished 4th for the CY in 1980 with a 115 ERA+, and finished 8th in 1978 with a 107 ERA+.
Not counting the small sample of 20.1 IP in his first season, he had only 0ne season with an ERA+ over 150. And had only two seasons when his ERA+ was over 140.
His career ERA+ is only 111. That ties him for 332nd on the career list. He’s tied with guys like Doc Gooden, Sid Fernandez, Britt Burns, Gio Gonzalez, and Jered Weaver. Orel Hershiser has a 112 ERA+, as does Frank Viola, Mel Stottlemyre, and Eric Plunk.
He’s comparable to a lot of very good pitchers, but, like him, clearly those are pitchers not good enough to be in the HoF.
Yes it was a different game, so he needs to be compared to his contemporaries, not pitchers that only go 5 innings today. At his 3 year peak, 1978-80, in CGs TJ had 30 CGs. By comparison, Phil Niekro, at his 3 year peak, 1977-79 had 65 CGs. Now I realize Niekro was a different pitcher than TJ, but I think it puts CGs into better context.
TJ never once in his 26 year career led the league in complete CGs. In 1977 his 11 CGs didn’t even get him a top 10. Nor did he ever lead the league in Ws. His 20 wins in 1977 was the only time he had 20 or more wins.
By comparison to his contemporaries his wins and CGs rank him as very good, but not with the best pitchers of his era.
@RemoveManagerWinsFromTheRecordBooks Wins were never representative of a pitcher’s talent or success. Never. Just because they hadn’t come out with betters stats YET doesn’t mean wins were a good stat then. I’m sure 100 years ago there were also good pitchers on bad teams and vice versa.
Who is everyone’s favorite baseball broadcasting team?
Almost all TV announcers are shades of bad. Most are selling themselves, not putting the game first And most talk to fans as if they’ve never seen a baseball game before. As if at the end of the game the viewers will be asked to take a snap quiz.
When I watch on MLB.TV I usually take one of the radio teams for the audio feed. They put the game first and usually have interesting insights (how many times can we watch a commentator zero in on how a Pitcher grips one of his pitches?…or watch replays of the exploits of an ex-player in the booth?).
With Jerry Remy (Red Sox) gone, the only 2 TV broadcasts I can stomach are whoever does the Giants games (3 guys rotate each game: Jon Miller, Duane Kuiper, Mike Krukow – 2 on TV, 1 on radio) and The Astros because of Harry Kalas’ (long time Phillies announcer) son – Todd – who was raised to put the game first for the fans. Those broadcasts don’t zeros in on things like the sequence of pitches and guessing what the Pitcher will throw next. They know the viewer can see the action. They make the game enjoyable, and interject technical points when it truly means something.
And yes, after listening to Vinnie in LA for 25 years it’s quite difficult to put up with most of the broadcasters.
Samuel, it’s only the National broadcasters who fall into this bucket and in most cases it’s not their fault. They have directives from their producers to dumb-down the game so they can try to capture new / uninformed viewers and turn them into fans. What they don’t realize is that they are alienating the true fans of the game as it’s borderline insulting when they dumb-down the game like that. They also try pit one National announcer against the other over some benign topic or event just to try and get the ratings up.
With that said, the vast majority of local broadcasters are really good and don’t try to placate an uneducated audience. I’m a big fan of Don Orsillo who was unfortunately forced out of the Boston booth and is now in San Diego. When traveling for business, I always try to catch a local broadcast of the game and in most cases, I enjoy it. I’ve watched a lot of Cleveland, Toronto, Philadelphia and Tampa broadcasts and I didn’t find any of them off-putting. The Braves broadcasts are a little annoying but I think that’s the Ted Turner hangover effect. I’m also a big fan of Dennis Eclkersley. He is absolutely one of a kind, but he knows baseball as good as anyone and marches to his own beat.
So I’m a dodger fan and that means I love Joe Davis. Yet Orel is a bad announcer. So the fox WS Joe Davis and John Smotlz was really good and I enjoyed it. I also for some reason like Matt Vasergian.
First, Vin Scully is amazing.
Second, I like Orel’s enthusiasm and if he was just doing an occasional interview or analysis, I would find his perspective an asset. But while I admired him as a player, as an announcer, I would have to rate him in the bottom 33 percent.
Vin Scully and Jerry Doggett of the Dodgers.
Vin Scully and Jerry Doggett
Some of my favorite announcers over the years:
Dave Niehaus, Mariners
Ted Lietner, Padres
Victor Rojas/Mark Gubiza, Angels
T.Brenneman/B.Brenly, D-backs
And I will probably be banned from MLBTR for saying this (and get 1000s of down votes), but I’m the only person in the world that is not a big fan of Vin Scully.
I’m not mad, I’m disappointed. Why do you not like Vin?
You like Lietner and not Scully?
auto ban
I knew my views on Vin would not be well received. I don’t dislike him, I just don’t hold him in high regard as do others.
As for Uncle Teddy, he is an acquired taste. And definitely not for everyone.
Niehaus is probably my favorite and Im not a Mariners fan. He was awesome… “my oh my”.
All-time? My vote is for Vin Scully.
Richie Ashburn and Harry Kalas have entered the chat……..
Man the dumb trades people come up with for my A’s . Ok let’s say I’m part of the decision making in Oakland. My goal is to trade our top pieces for young top notch talent . Bohm young , but I don’t want him , because we have Zack Gelof ready to play 3b . I really don’t want the Mets castoff junk for anything . If you want Manaea you better come see with something good .
Agreed most trade proposals are one-sided and dumb, but Bohm could be very useful for Oakland. Could rotate between 3B, 1B, and DH. Gelof is still probably 2 seasons away anyway.
Let’s assume Dodgers keep Vargas to replace Turner in a year.
Dodgers could offer five prospects, 1. Diego Cartaya, 2. A’s choice of Ryan Pepiot or Bobby Miller, 3. Andy Pages, 4. Clayton Beeter, and 5. Gavin Stone, plus throw in middle reliever 6. Victor Gonzalez, in return for two players, 1B Matt Olson, and one pitcher of A’s choice from P Sean Manaea, P Chris Bassitt and P Frankie Montas.
Bohm was almost ROTY in 2020. I don’t think that a trade involving him is a bad offer, but I also don’t expect the Phillies to give up on him yet.
I think the point is that Bohm is a desired asset but matches better with a team other than the A’s. The Marlins would be the perfect team to acquire Bohm for a pitcher but the Phillies and fish are in the same division competing with each other for third so I don’t know that it would be considered. But if the Phillies could flip Bohm to Miami for a pitcher and then sign Kyle Seager, it would make sense to me if it is a good pitcher or pitching prospect. Or make a different deal for Chapman.
Mark P
9:09 Is there a worse trade in recent history than Quintana for Jiminez and Cease?
Mark P
9:09 “OH, I CAN THINK OF ONE” — Pirates fans
–
LOL
The night that trade was made I wrote here that it would cost Neal Huntington his job. Compared it to the trade between Cleveland and Montreal which was pretty much Bartolo Colon for Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, and Grady Sizemore. If Shane Baz performs as well as many think he will, that Pirates trade will be even worse. At least Bartolo pitched decently for the Expos.
White Sox traded Tatis Jr. and Paddack for Shields and Rodney!
Mets traded away Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi.
In the white Sox defense…
I’ve got nothin
Since when did the White Sox trade Paddack?
My mistake White Sox traded Tatis Jr to Padres for Shields.
It was the fish that traded Paddack to Padres for Rodney.
The White Sox trade of Tatis Jr. was bad enough without my incorrectly adding a Marlins mistake to their tally.
Meadows, Glasnow and Baz? But Archer sure missed the target. Does that top Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez to Cubs? I guess so, at least that dumped some salary.
I still think Eloy Jimenez will be better than Austin Meadows.
Another sad trade Pedro Martinez for Delink Desheilds.
The trade questions on Adell were interesting. Do Angels fans actually want to pull the plug on him already? Think he has a great chance at becoming a star player still.
I guess trading Adell is PC.
The dumb ones do. Using a very small sample size.
They probably would have preferred the angels trade Trout after his first callup too
If a Marlins fan says they want to “hook Trout” maybe they are just trying to bait you.
The “trade Adell” phrase has become a punchline in these open chats and now many fans are pretty cheeky with their posts. Most Angel fans understand the guy is a future star.
Well cuz everyone wants their favorite team to be able to say “Dude, we’re getting Adell.” It’s just PC.
And most Angels fans understand that Ben Curtis was all the rage until he met Mary Jane.
BroadCast eam- Dick Enberg and Don Drysdale Angels Radio 1973- 1978
Best- Vin Scully
Why aren’t my comments posting?
They might take a minute
Maybe they are not fair and balanced after all.
I have no idea why anyone would think Tommy John should be in the HoF just because he was the first one to have the surgery that now bears his name. Seems to me a HoF induction requires better than just good, to very good, numbers.
Tommy John had a very impressive career and is HOF worthy. He had 288 wins, over 2,200 K’s, a career 3.34 ERA and just under a 70 Career WAR. Longevity is a big part of the HOF too and he pitched for 25 seasons in the majors. That alone is impressive regardless of the breakthrough surgical procedure or not.
Not a single soul cares about 288 wins
At least one does, as I do. Tommy John had a 79.6 career WAR, per FanGraphs.
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&…
mlb.com/news/tommy-john-modern-era-hall-of-fame-ca…
No active pitcher has more than 226 wins (Verlander). Tommy John was more than a compiler, he was a Cy Young runner up in the NL (1977) and a Cy Young runner up in the AL (1979). He pitched 26 years and almost 7 innings per start, unlike how starters are coddled now. So yes, 288 wins matters. Tommy John is a borderline Hall of Famer, but my vote would be yes. The fact that the surgery was named after him is a fun fact, but not the difference-maker.
he’s been waiting months to put that username to good use
It was a different game in TJ’s day, wins were more representative of a starting pitcher’s talent and success. You didn’t have 5-inning starters or openers or relief pitchers bailing out starters in the 6th inning. Studying the history of the game would help you understand that.
162 complete games for TJ. On a regular basis he accomplished by himself what takes 6-7 pitchers to accomplish today. There’s quite a bit of value in that.
Manny, Dorothy:
Minor correction: Fangraphs has him at 79.4 WAR. And I think they’re off. In an article on Fangraphs about his HoF candidacy they quote his career WAR at 65.5. It also mentions that he had only 4 seasons of +5 WAR.
blogs.fangraphs.com/tommy-johns-career-was-more-th…
BB Ref has him with a 62.1 WAR, and Hall of Fame Stats has him at 61.7. That puts him at 53rd on the career list. But WAR is a cumulative stat, and over a 26-year career that averages out to a 2.39 WAR per season.
He’s tied for 195th for career CGs. And I think his longevity actually hurts his candidacy. Some of his totals look good, but when you look at how they average over 26 years, not so much. 11.7 wins per season, and 86.3 SOs per season.
CY votes don’t count for much. He finished 4th for the CY in 1980 with a 115 ERA+, and finished 8th in 1978 with a 107 ERA+.
Not counting the small sample of 20.1 IP in his first season, he had only 0ne season with an ERA+ over 150. And had only two seasons when his ERA+ was over 140.
His career ERA+ is only 111. That ties him for 332nd on the career list. He’s tied with guys like Doc Gooden, Sid Fernandez, Britt Burns, Gio Gonzalez, and Jered Weaver. Orel Hershiser has a 112 ERA+, as does Frank Viola, Mel Stottlemyre, and Eric Plunk.
He’s comparable to a lot of very good pitchers, but, like him, clearly those are pitchers not good enough to be in the HoF.
RemoveManagerWinsFromTheRecordBooks:
Yes it was a different game, so he needs to be compared to his contemporaries, not pitchers that only go 5 innings today. At his 3 year peak, 1978-80, in CGs TJ had 30 CGs. By comparison, Phil Niekro, at his 3 year peak, 1977-79 had 65 CGs. Now I realize Niekro was a different pitcher than TJ, but I think it puts CGs into better context.
TJ never once in his 26 year career led the league in complete CGs. In 1977 his 11 CGs didn’t even get him a top 10. Nor did he ever lead the league in Ws. His 20 wins in 1977 was the only time he had 20 or more wins.
By comparison to his contemporaries his wins and CGs rank him as very good, but not with the best pitchers of his era.
@RemoveManagerWinsFromTheRecordBooks Wins were never representative of a pitcher’s talent or success. Never. Just because they hadn’t come out with betters stats YET doesn’t mean wins were a good stat then. I’m sure 100 years ago there were also good pitchers on bad teams and vice versa.
Kell and Harrell in Detroit and of course Kalne.
Harwell
Veritek and Lowe for heathcliff Slocum