The daily collective bargaining sessions between Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association continued this afternoon. MLB made a core economics proposal Monday, which the union countered yesterday. Neither side was pleased with the other’s latest offer, and the league has doubled down on previous assertions that regular season games will be canceled if no new CBA is agreed upon by the end of the month.
Last week, MLB informed the union it viewed February 28 as the deadline for an agreement that wouldn’t impact the regular season. MLB unilaterally instituted the lockout and could lift it at any time, but there’s no chance it’ll do so and cede negotiating leverage to the union. After today’s negotiations, a league spokesperson told reporters (including Hannah Keyser of Yahoo! Sports) that regular season games would be canceled if no CBA is in place by Monday. The league said it has no plans to make possible missed games up at a later date and noted that players would not have the opportunity to recoup lost game checks in that event.
Jared Diamond of the Wall Street Journal tweets that MLB also doesn’t intend to rearrange the schedule in the event games are scrapped. If the regular season were delayed but an agreement was eventually reached, the league would simply pick up where the current schedule dictates whenever games begin.
It’s possible the league is simply trying to exert leverage in an area where it feels it has the upper hand, reasoning that missing early-season games would be more detrimental to players than it would be to owners. The MLBPA has maintained that if players lose any portion of their salaries due to game cancelations, they’d refuse to agree to expansion of the playoffs in 2022. Postseason expansion has been a key goal of the league’s throughout the process, as it’d stand to benefit substantially from the possible sale of additional rounds to television partners.
In the meantime, the parties continue to haggle over economics. MLB responded to the union’s latest offer with a marginal raise in the minimum salary today. Previously, MLB had been proposing a flat $630K minimum or a tiered minimum based on a player’s service time that ranged from $615K to $725K. The league has scrapped the idea of differing lowest salaries depending upon service time and today offered to bump the leaguewide minimum to $640K next season, as Evan Drellich of the Athletic first reported (on Twitter). That would jump by $10K per season for the rest of the CBA, as follows:
2022: $640K
2023: $650K
2024: $660K
2025: $670K
2026: $680K
It’s a very minor move in the players’ favor, but one that seems unlikely to thrill the union. The MLBPA actually increased their desired league minimum in yesterday’s proposal (to MLB’s chagrin), seeking a $775K figure next season that’d climb $30K annually to $895K by 2026. The union paired that with a slight dip in its efforts to expand arbitration, but the league has stringently refused to entertain the possibility of broader Super Two eligibility altogether.
Last season, the league minimum was set at $570.5K. As Travis Sawchik of the Score calculated last month, the minimum would need to be set at $650K in 2022 to keep pace with inflation, relative to the terms of the 2016-21 CBA. MLB’s offer today isn’t far off that mark (at least for this year), but getting players paid earlier in their careers has been an overarching goal for the union throughout this round of collective bargaining. Thus, it seems unlikely the MLBPA will respond favorably to the proposal.
There’s obviously plenty of ground that’ll need to be made in the coming days — on issues ranging from the minimum salary and competitive balance tax to the players’ push for broader arbitration and the league’s desired playoff expansion — if the regular season is to begin on time. It remains to be seen whether either side would budge off their stated positions if any sort of progress is made later this week, but given the glacial pace in talks thus far, the possibility of losing regular season games seems greater on a daily basis. They’ll meet again tomorrow and are expected to talk every day through the end of the month.
Narrator: They didn’t know it then, but the 2022 season as a whole would be cancelled.
My best-case scenario.
By June the union will have lowered its Super 2 arbitration proposal down to 50%, and simultaneously INCREASED its minimum salary to $17MM and the arbitration pool to $400MM. By June 15 the players will be talking decertification, which is the best result for them and the sport.
This comment was great for a quick chuckle. Then when I realized that the person who wrote this was serious, it just became sad.
The article says it won’t “thrill the union.” I don’t think any contract should ever leave any side “thrilled.” Negotiations are supposed to involve minor changes so that no one is “thrilled” with the changes. That’s how you know they are successful. For every side that is “thrilled” another side feels robbed. I don’t know how the union can feel robbed when they are already being offered way more than what they were getting. Is this a negotiation or is it a political referendum on what wealthy people should have to give to people who are “only” rich? I thought it was supposed to be a negotiation.
The owners’ deal doesn’t even keep pace with inflation before it was at 7.5%, let alone now. How is that better?
Your position of “they are being offered more than they have, so they should accept it” is ridiculous. Under your line of thinking, the players would receive an ever smaller portion of the pie.
You’d have a good point if the union had actually used that word to describe their reaction.
It’s funny to me when people making 7, 8 or 9 figure salaries talk about keeping up with inflation
Like “dam gas is $4 a gallon I can’t get by on my same old 5 million”
Will Clarks answering machine says hi.
The owners think we’re all idiots, and don’t remember they instituted this lockout.
They could start baseball tomorrow if they chose to.
@Astros: These people are even worse than that. Some guy was was trying to say yesterday that the $570k minimum salary should increase by the same amount as California’s “living wage.” California only did that because it was hard for people to live on $8 an hour (it also resulted in massive unemployment which left a ton of people without jobs period but that’s besides the point). Since when does a $570k salary need to meet a living wage increase? It’s funny. If these same people were to meet someone else making $570k a year they would say they need to make less so other people can make a living wage. But since they see their employees are sometimes billionaires they start demanding the $570k salary people get more money. It’s nothing but politics and the belief that redistribution if wealth is always good as long as the most wealthy lose money and the less wealthy make more. These opinions aren’t based on what’s good for the sport of baseball. The fact that “living wage” was even brought in to a mathematical equation about people who make no less than $570.5k each year shows you how crazy they have gone. They should be arguing for the people who have the least money. Those people are the fans. Instead they just see what the owners have and are disgusted by that so they want them to give it away to anyone who has less. If the billionaire owners were employed by trillionaires, they would be rooting for the billionaire owners. It has nothing to do with anything other than they want to see richest guy give up as much as possible to less richest guy. Keep that crap on political message boards. Just like every other job, revenue is irrelevant unless the employees agree to be paid based on revenue. The MLBPA has been adamantly against that for years. It’s so ridiculous people even bring that up anymore. The players don’t want revenue based income. The revenue has nothing to do with their income by their own choice. They are stupid for not wanting revenue based income IMO but that is what they chose so leave it up to them and let them deal with both the benefits and consequences of that.
Mp2891 it’s not there pie…
Mp2891 it’s not there pie…
.
Inflation protection is for low-to-mid incomes who have to spend their entire paycheck to maintain a low-mid standard of living.
When you get a $70K/year raise, how can you whine about “standard of living”? Your raise will buy you a Tesla! And you were already paid in the TOP 1% of American households.
Shut up and PLAY BALL!
Finally someone else who gets it. The snake ( MLBPA ) is eating its own tail. Hold firm owners. Don’t give in and take control back .
How much was Max Scherer making in 2016 versus 2021? Never mind. At how much players are making, I doubt there will be less food on the table, or that they will have to drop HBO.
The owners don’t want to start a season w/o a new agreement and face the threat of a strike mid season.
If the numbers don’t even keep pace with inflation, the “increase” is actually a decrease in real dollars. Most people get this.
Add in the massive increase in revenues across the game, not being shared with the players whose work is responsible for the revenue.
As it stands right now, the biggest obstacle is the owners’ absurd tax hikes and draconian penalties on the CBT which are intended to impose an even harder de facto salary cap.
Players should take the position that the CBT has sunset and they don’t want any CBT. And they’d be right.
So by that token if inflation didn’t sky rocket, would the players be okay with a more typical cost of living raise of 1%?
Chance are no right? Inflation has no part of these negotiations, no one at the table right now is concerned over gas or milk prices.
It’s funny when people who can afford to buy baseball teams for billions don’t think they have enough money, and it’s them we come to see play. I mean, not ha-ha funny. More like, are you out of your furry little mind funny.
No one care about inflation, relating to MLB salaries.
The players work isn’t responsible for anything. I don’t care if I never see ANY of these players again. It used to be about the game. The really issue is competitive balance, and the CBT provides none. Cap/floor or bust ’em.
@Blue Skies: I don’t know about you but I come to see the front of the jersey play. I couldn’t care less about the name on the back. I think most people don’t even realize they feel that way. We root for the teams the owners own more than we root for players who wear the Jersey’s. Ask yourself this: Braves fans love them some Freddie Freeman. If he were to go to the Mets, would they root for him? It would they root for whoever is wearing a Braves jersey? I think you know the answer to that. Freeman doesn’t own the Braves jersey. The owners do. The fans root for laundry like they always have. The might have favorite players… But the bodies in that laundry is interchangable and all they care about is the laundry winning a world series. People root for the name on the front of the jersey. No one cares about the back of the jersey. We don’t watch the players play. So you think if Correa were to sign with an independent league everyone would start watching that league? You know they wouldn’t. Like it or not we watch whatever the owners spent billions of dollars to buy. No matter what name is on the back. We watch the front of the jersey and it’s the owners who own that.
Dane – I’ve mentioned this before, if the players agree to a binding no-strike agreement for 2022 then the owners would likely agree to lift the lockout and play the season under last year’s CBA terms.
So really, the ball is in the players’ court.
lyman – The last time a CBA was signed in November 2016, the ML minimum went from $507,500 to last year’s $570,500 which is a 14% increase over five years.
Now MLB is offering a 19% increase over the next five years, but the MLBPA wants an immediate 36% increase and an overall 68% increase over the next five years.
I don’t see how any fan could support a 68% increase that would put the ML minimum salary at nearly a million dollars. I think most fans, many of whom typically receive no more than a 4% annual increase, are infuriated by such an outlandish demand of 68% over five years.
Bud – I’ve been saying all along the owners don’t care about early season games. Their comments about the Feb 28 deadline and not making up any games is further proof of that.
Four weeks is not needed for ST, in 1990 they had just a 3-week ST and started the regular season a week late but made up all of that first week’s games.
If the owners had their way, they would have a permanent 120-game regular season and 60-day postseason.
Can the players even “strike” if they are already locked out by the owners? And if so, what’s the benefit?
Rich people are a plague. Capitalism is a vampire.
Capitalism is the best system of economics yet invented.
Remove the cronyism AND make the rich actually pay taxes and it works quite well.
It’s those last two that people at the top and their human footstools at the bottom object to, for differing reasons obviously.
The average MLB career fell to 3.71 years as of 2019 (Travis Sawchik) which covers the 3 pre-arb years of minimum salary and less than a year of arbitration eligibility.
What you, and a number of other comments are missing, is that the overwhelming majority of players don’t make–and never make–7 figures. Those making league-minimum receive a prorated amount of that minimum salary according to service time.
These negotiations aren’t about the established veterans (good or bad). It’s about the players that made beans in the minors, often working odd jobs to pay the rent and feed their families, hanging on for a chance to eventually make it to the show, and then fighting like mad to settle in and keep their jobs. Most fall short.
But yeah, inflation. Never mind the growing margin of profit the owners are making, adding to their billions. They’re not complaining about inflation, but they’re fighting relentlessly to grow the overwhelming gap between themselves and those they use to make tens or hundreds of millions while boosting the value of their franchises into the multi-billion dollar range.
Your angst is misplaced and that’s exactly what the owners what you to do.
If your salary doesn’t keep up with inflation year to year then you are making less money than you were previously. This should not be happening in a industry that has increasing revenue
I find the ant-player arguments to be so strange
If the lockout is lifted with no CBA they can. Benefit is they could strike in August or September which means they get nearly full salary and owners lose big money.
An increase at the rate of inflation is the very minimum needed just to keep the numbers at the same level that they are presently.
In the last two years of the CBA, the minimum salary increased according to a COLA- cost of living adjustment.
The players’ reasoning for increasing CBT thresholds and minimum salaries is the fact that MLB revenues have soared and they are entitled to a fair share of that revenue that their work has produced.. This is typically found in the initial, first year proposed increase. It is fair.
But the owners’ proposal to increase the CBT thresholds by just one percent per year for five years is ridiculous. Their proposals for more than doubling the tax rates and adding new draft penalties makes the de facto salary cap an even harder cap.
The owners are using the same bad faith bargaining tactics over the same issue that they lost in 1994, and they don’t seem to care if they get the same result.
So if Moreno signed 20 year media deals 10 years ago and that accounts for much of his revenue, then how does his revenue go up massively?
His only goes up, maybe., when these massive deals expire. This isn’t a business that can raise prices to match inflation.
That’s not to say I disagree with a luxury tax threshold that’s is more off a speed bump then barrier or a mechanism that pays good young players more.
Shouldn’t it follow just wage inflation? or are expecting this CBA to set an example for all businesses to follow? forgive me for making a joke.
Bluff, dude
The owners have already passed on their costs from inflation to you, the consumer, 100x over.
From a player salary perspective, or any salaried employee in general, you’d be an absolute fool to accept a labor agreement over a five year period that does not adjust for inflation.
Secondly, as it was somewhat pointed out, stagnant salaries during periods of significant inflation are essentially salary cuts. This isn’t complicated. So when you’re going on about not caring about effects of inflation on salaries, you’re admitting you aren’t concerned with cuts to salaries while owners enjoy record high revenues and a larger percentage of those revenues.
The MLBPA doesn’t represent the minor league players. That’s for the minor league players to handle. No one is forcing them to choose this path fyi
@hammer your spot on. All of this, not even mentioning that the players have ZERO financial risk. Its tiring hearing fools arguing these facts.
Using the word inflation to describe why players salaries should go up is meaningless. Baseball isn’t your normal business. Inflation affects owners more than players.
If the owners profits go up, so should the salaries. Based on history, which we don’t have much, I believe most owners don’t make a lot of money until they sell their team. Others don’t.
The fact is we don’t know. The luxury tax should be a speed bump, young players should get more money. Everything else is minutia.
@Hammer So which side of the jersey should we cheer on again? I don’t think that you explained it enough in your long post.
MLB has always been about the best players in the world. That’s who I pay come to see play, not a bunch of empty jerseys. Your example is a strange one, but going with it, if Correa signed with an independent league not many would come to see him play because he’d be playing meaningless games surrounded by a bunch of no-talent bums who couldn’t make it at the low minors level. Your entire argument assume fans don’t care about talented players playing at the highest level and for championships. It kind of leaves me dizzy trying to figure out how some who call themselves baseball fans suddenly don’t give a hoot about any of that and how far they’ll bend over to give ownership a big smoochy wet kiss.
“From a player salary perspective, or any salaried employee in general, you’d be an absolute fool to accept a labor agreement over a five year period that does not adjust for inflation.”
They arent “any salaried employee”. Stop generalizing, just to make your point. They are very highly paid employee. Please name ANY job where you make over a million dollars and COLAs are part of the contract. Ridiculous point.
I’m a salaried employee. Our company generates most of its revenue by signing ten-year service contracts.
Noting accounts for a 7 percent inflation hit. I’m not going to get a cost-of-living increase. The service contacts don’t have more value because of inflation. just like signed TV deals are not going to grow with inflation.
People who are talking about inflation are just shouting buzz words and have made up their minds long ago to support the players.
So you’re saying because minor league players are underpaid they should be overpaid their first three years in the majors? That’s faulty logic.
What business owner does keep pace with inflation?? We’re all gung-ho about the MLB players getting their 500k but not the millions of americans wanting 20+ an hour…
If that is directed at me. (RMWFTRB) I’m saying that young good players should be paid more. They are not being paid what they are worth. They will never be paid what they are worth. But it might be nice if they made 10% to 20% of what they are worth.
And I’m not saying minor league players are underpaid. The vast majority of minor league players are paid more than what they are worth.
The rich do pay taxes. The rich pay the majority of taxes. Are there exceptions? Yes there are. But stop repeating what politicians tell you.
Ah yes, the players are the entire reason for the increase in revenue. Their play just magically made more money appear. Definitely didn’t have to do with new and increased forms of broadcasting or anything like that.
You don’t understand the anti- player sentiments. Ok just a quick example . Just before the lockout Soto from the Nationals turned down a guaranteed contract of $350 million. Think about that for one minute. That’s not life changing money,that’s generational wealth. The greed from the players is ridiculous. The cost to go to games is ridiculous because of player salaries being so outrageous. The Rays latest stadium proposal is for a mere 27,000 fan stadium at an outrageous cost of over $800 million. Why so much? Luxury boxes and such because that’s how the teams make a profit off of attendance. The average fans attendance doesn’t go into profit. Our tix price and way over priced concessions and $110 jersey that cost less than $5 to make all go to player salary. Now you have an idea of anti player sentiment. Oh and food for thought . The 1990 world series champion reds payroll was a staggering $17 million.
This entire argument is ridiculous.
Your entitled to your view as I’m entitled to mine
Except that my view is based on reality.
So now we are blaming the players for how the owners try to con local governments into paying for their ridiculous stadiums?
The players could be paid $10k per year across the board and those luxury boxes and jersey prices aren’t going anywhere
You know nothing about why Soto turned down that deal. Maybe he doesnt want to spend his career with that team? Maybe he doesn’t want to live in that city during the season? I know that if I were already pretty set financially (like Juan is), I wouldn’t be in a hurry to sign away the next 10 years of my life, no matter the dollar amount. Not to mention how players like Juan going to free agency and getting the max dollar is good for his fellow players, by setting that precedent
The richest people are good at making the common person blame someone other than them. You really have to give it up to the anti union brainwashing that has been going on in this country over the last 50+years. The war over public opinion is over and the people lost
“…just shouting buzzwords & have made up their minds long ago…”
That’s pretty much how everything is right now, @Halo. Neatly sort oneself into one of the socially accepted poles on all issues. I don’t see a whole lot of critical &/or independent thinking being executed that way. But it’s much easier to sort everybody.
Your view of reality. Everything I stayed was factual. Your free to to fit facts into your narrative any way you wish. I had this conversation with my wife last year when I couldn’t watch the Reds on TV without paying for some out of the way streaming network. I had it again earlier this week about this lockout that I’m done going to games, buying any merch and I’m glad I never paid for the streaming service. I’m done with em. My first game was at Riverfront stadium to see Hank Aaron hit his historic home run when I was a young child and I was hooked. Now I’m done . Fk em. More time for better things in life than a bunch of cry baby millionaire’s and billionaire’s.
Ducky, in my opinion the players are more right than wrong, but that doesn’t mean ownership has some strong points and that the Players Union is making some pretty absurd asks.
I think something that gets frequently overlooked is how much money owners must allocate for operating costs. There are 30 ballparks each employing a large staff of employees to handle everything from parking, vending, custodial duties, cooks, ticket booths, merch booths, grounds crew, security etc. That doesn’t include non union team staff such as coaches, trainers and all the people working in the front office. Combine all that with utility overhead and it adds up to a lot. Not trying to side with the owners, just being realistic. Every promotional give away night costs big money. If there were no more people going around the stands selling hot dogs and beer (you’d have to go get it yourself). No more free hats, jerseys, bobbleheads or whatever. No more fireworks displays. How would you feel about it?
@Blue Skies: You don’t pay to see “the best players in the world.” That sounds nice but it’s not even close to true. You pay to see the Dodgers. An organization and brand the owner paid billions of dollars to own. If the Dodgers traded your favorite players to the Blue Jays would you start flying all the way to Toronto all the time to watch them play instead of the Dodgers? If the Dodgers went through a rebuilding phase and started trotting a terrible team out there would you become a fairweather fan and start flying to another stadium so you could watch “the best players in the world” instead? No. You would still root for the Dodgers and go see them when you went to games. The Dodgers brand was bought and paid handsomely for by the owner. It is not available to you because of the employees that happen to work for the Dodgers at this moment. That’s like saying you go to McDonald’s because you like their cashiers. You don’t. You go because it’s freaking McDonald’s.
@stevil 38% make more than a million per season. At least have your facts right. The MLBPA could care less about the lower paid players. Don’t bring up Minor league players because the MLBPA isn’t even involved with them.
Halo11: That is perfectly said.
Nice straw man, BlueSkies… problem is, no one actually thinks any of those things. Way to totally twist up the issue though.
Good.
-1,tvor.
Awesome!! Not only they are willing to cancel games which will happen, us fans now get to hear them bicker about Expanded playoffs VS full salaries issue to add on the other stuff both sides are unwilling to budge on. Lucky fans we are!
Keep killing yourselves MLB and MLBPA.
WELL DONE!!
Not only will they be arguing about prorated salaries for games missed, but also prorated for lost per-game revenue PLUS the pro-rated service issue as well.. The players bargaining strength is at its zenith now, and they would be/will be fools not to make a deal in the next few days.
Which is why they hold expanded playoffs over the owners head
Players game checks are the same now as September, but owners make much more later and especially much more in the playoffs
Both sides are digging in, this isn’t ending soon
And neither side can see they are both screwing the selves
The union ( players), aren’t budging on too many issues they have zero chance of attaining. The level of stupidity is astounding.
At least the movement by the owners was towards the players ask, unlike the players who increased their demands yesterday.
history, I’d like to know which issues they have zero chance of attaining and why.
There is no prorated service issue. Owners can not deprive players of service time because they were locked out, prohibited from working.
It’s not an issue.
Depends on how you look at it. The players trying to make a major league roster coming out of spring training are potentially impacted by it. They are losing opportunities.
The CBA will decide whether players are credited with service for lost games. In 2020 the owners gave players a year service for only 60 games. Nothing anywhere requires the players to get service for games they don’t play. Their ‘right’ to this service is only in your mind.
Owners own this lockout along with any games that would be canceled from it! Let’s all remember that!
I hope they figure something out by 2/28 so we have a full season without any interruptions though that might be wishful thinking!
Owners own mlb. They can do whatever they want.
Yes but they are not free of the consequences that come from damaging the sport.
That’s there choice. I doubt they damage it much. Sure lots say they will never watch again but most will. I can’t believe kids growing up want to watch baseball.
They dont want to watch baseball. Oldest average fans of all the sports and absolutely culturally irrelevant and on the way out more and more with each passing year.
@the voice. I don’t blame them. Games are long and slow paced. They grew up with lots of tech and everything on demand right now. I am surprised adults still watch it or any sport. I used to watch all 4 usa sports and 2 major college. Now just baseball but if it never came back I wouldn’t care. Lots of things to do.
Yet Soccer is growing, and I find that much slower paced than baseball.
I don’t recall seeing soccer players take 30 seconds and undoing their gloves, play for a few seconds and then undo and redo those same gloves again.
Soccer will never overtake any of four major team sports. It’s incredibly boring with hardly any scoring.
Hockey v soccer?
Soccer could possibly win that one as time goes on. Hockey is more regional than any other sport. Worldwide soccer is obviously already more popular. The issue is that the best players will never play in America because the money and fandom is so strong overseas.
They’ve been saying the fan base is older for long enough that it’s time to dig deeper into those numbers.
It seems like as people get older, they start (or keep) watching baseball and stop watching basketball, hockey, soccer, etc.
MLB is 2nd to the NFL in revenue and there is a significant drop-off to 3rd. The other leagues seem to have problems retaining fans after they turn 25.
Owners are also free to burn down the house of cards they have built. And they’re well on their way to doing just that.
So by that measure, the players own the cancelled 1994 baseball season.
Correct, I don’t think anyone would argue with that statement.
In 94 the owners had agreed to the old CBA being in force while they negotiated. The owners after the season had started said they were not going to honor the contributions to the players retirement account. THEN the players struck.
There is a federal court ruling on this topic. The court found that owners did not bargain in good faith.
More misinformation from Patrick. The court did NOT find that the clubs bargained in bad faith in 1994 as Patrick claimed. Justice Sotomayor, who issued an injunction in 1995, made no finding at all that the clubs had bargained in bad faith.
No misinformation from me Best man.
The ruling states, in pertinent part
“In the matter before me, the NLRB has charged the Owners with violating §§ 8(a) (1) & (5) of the Act,[3] that is, of violating the duty to bargain collectively in good faith with the Players. The duty to bargain collectively is defined in § 8(d) as the “mutual obligation of the employer and the representative of the employees to … confer in good faith with respect to wages, hours, and other terms and conditions of employment….” 29 U.S.C. § 158(d).”
Applying these standards to the factual and legal arguments before me, I find as follows:
The Board has Reasonable Cause to Believe the Owners have Engaged in an Unfair Labor Practice
As noted, there is no dispute that on February 6, 1995, the Owners unilaterally changed certain provisions of the expired Basic Agreement; namely, they announced that the PRC, rather than the individual clubs, would negotiate individual players’ free agency contracts, and that the salary arbitration rights of eligible reserve players were eliminated. My inquiry of whether the Board had reasonable cause to believe that the Owners committed an unfair labor practice hinges on whether I find reasonable cause for the Board’s legal finding that the provisions at issue involved mandatory subjects of bargaining. If so, and if such relief is “just and proper,” I must grant the injunction.
here is a link to the decision.
law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp…
The entire decision goes into much more technical detail. The owners actually argued that they did not have an obligation to bargain in good faith, and the court upheld the NLRB determination that they did, and that they violated that obligation.
@nbresnak
Oh, we’re losing reg season games – that’s a given at this point. The only question is, will it be “just” 2 or 3 weeks, or will it be much longer?
Either way, I’m gonna be all over my team’s MiLB games and player-development, as I’m sure this site will be too. The only thing that I won’t be happy about is the handful of prospects that won’t be able to participate because they’re on the 40 man – but I’ll live with that.
@goob I mainly watch milb already. No mlb no problem. You get to see the same players that you will see on your mlb team for less money. Find your affiliate that has the most talent. Half the teams have good talent at every level.
Well actually, it’s because I care about the fortunes of my MLB team, that I’ve always enjoyed following their MiLB teams. So I’m not pretending to be happy about lost games or anything, let alone this whole big-league cluster.
But I’m 100% prepared to make do and enjoy what I can with something I’ve always enjoyed before. 🙂
BTW, don’t forget that some of those successful prospects get traded and never debut for their original club.
@goob I was just stating my reason. I enjoy mlb but not as much as the scouting and franchise building aspect.
I’ll be watching the same MiLB games if they don’t resolve their issues together!
I agree goob!
Players have the same responsibility as the owners, billionaires and millionaires fighting, and the fans can’t have baseball
What does “billionaires and millionaires fighting” even mean, especially when over 50% of MLB players are making the minimum or close to it?
gbs42, people love cliches and bumper sticker slogans. They don’t have to mean anything and typically can’t be debated.
It’s pathetic both sides can’t figure this out. This isn’t 2005 NHL when they were fighting over the structure of the sport itself. Owners need to accept they can’t go backwards on the CBT penalties and the players need to get off trying to police tanking teams with stuff like a draft lottery (which is laughable in a sport like baseball where prospects are years away and a crapshoot).
The pick itself isnt the prize, the slot value associated with it is. When you’re picking 1:1 you have $2.3 million more associated with that pick than pick #5 has and $600K more than #2. The leverage you have to manipulate your bonus pool goes WAY up at the very top.
There is definitely value in reducing the guarantee to pick at the top if you field a team to purposely suck but in my opinion it won’t be enough to dissuade tanking altogether. It is however getting the foot in the door to expand the scope of it for the next CBA or implement a more productive strategy in the future.
Teams will tank to be in the lottery. If anything it will increase tanking. If I was closer to lottery than playoffs and the lottery gave me a chance at the top pick or top 3 or even top 5 then I would definitely prefer the lottery vs spending money or trading prospects for a slim playoff chance.
If you’re within striking distance of a top 3 pick then it isn’t a choice to miss the playoffs.
I don’t believe draft picks are a huge factor in tanking. You aren’t good and you have players who are good that won’t be under contract when you are good again so you trade them for prospects. The result is you have a bad team that will get a good draft pick.
Want to give teams a real incentive not to tank? Give the clubs that just miss being the last playoff team in each league the second and third overall picks. Let the losing team that wins the lottery pick first. But reward the teams that battled hard till the end something tangible.
The biggest prize in not spending money on salaries is that they get to keep the money they don’t spend. The only way to force them to spend is by forcing them to spend. A lottery draft won’t do it.
Patrick, I don’t really care. If teams don’t want to compete. For now, teams can no longer tank with the expectation of getting the number one pick is good enough.
You’ll never get a perfect solution. This one isn’t bad.
Halo- first of all, let’s not swallow the claims by owners that they are all about competitive balance or that the players are all about saving the integrity of the game. The players want the owners to spend more on salaries and the owners want to limit spending on salaries.
If owners were deliberately keeping payroll lower in order to get draft picks, a draft lottery would be helpful. But the chronic lack of spending by several owners is aimed at saving money, not at getting better draft picks.
For one thing, it’s a strategy that doesn’t work very well in baseball. The draft is a crap shoot.
MLB needs to do more to incentivize winning. The one revenue stream that improves immediately with winning is gate receipts, and teams have to put 48% of that revenue into revenue sharing.
The players idea that cutting revenue sharing is helpful is way off base. If anything, they should want more revenue sharing, but require that the shared revenue is spent on players salaries, or they don’t get it.
It looks like we’ll have a draft lottery, because both sides are on board with it, but it’s not going to accomplish the players’ goal of making owners spend more on salaries.
I can’t wait for the “Draft Kings Lottery Show”. Then MLB will want even more picks subject to the lottery.
Both sides have actually agreed in principle to the idea of a lottery to determine draft pick slotting.
They are still sending counters over how many teams. MLB is at 4. PA is at 7. It’s such a waste of time
I really don’t care if teams tank to get a better draft choice. The strategy worked for the Cubs and it worked for the Astros. Doesn’t work for everyone as it still requires selecting well in the draft and developing your draftees.
For me, restricting tanking is rather like when the league decided to allocated slot money and hold teams to their poll. Why? Teams like the Pirates were using their limited resources to pay higher signing bonuses to get players who otherwise would not sign, e.g. Josh Bell. Bell was drafted 61st and got a $5 million signing bonus, the largest second round signing bonus in history. That year, the Pirates, yes, the cheap Pirates, spent $17 million ($21.25 million in 2022 dollars) on the draft. All five of their top five draft choices made it to the majors (G. Cole, J. Bell, A. Dickerson, C. Brewer, and T. Glasnow) Giving a draftee a big bonus to sign is both riskier and less expensive than paying free agents big bucks, but it is a viable strategy.
Baseball is becoming too standardized in how it is played and managed. Boring.
@ Skeptical. Pirates didn’t tank either. 2020 they had Musgrove Bell Frazier Rodriguez Stallings and still finished with worst record. 2021 without most of them they could only finish as the 4th best team. Tanking would be keep playing Tom Fowler Evans Gonzalez instead they aquire Gamel Chavis Yoshi in an attempt to get better players. They picked up in trades major league ready pieces Thompson Wilson. If I was tanking I get prospects. And certainly wouldn’t spend 10 million on Yoshie and Perez.
@YourDreamGM. Please reread my comment as I did not say the Pirates tanked. I noted that tanking has worked in the past for teams such as the Cubs and the Astros. I then noted that MLB had previously changed its rules to stop teams from spending lots of money in the draft as a way of accumulating prospects. There I used the example of the Pirates and their 2011 draft.
I finished by noting that I believe baseball is becoming too standardized in both how the game is played and in how teams and organizations are managed.
@skeptical My bad. Most people include the Pirate’s in teams that tank. Happy to hear your don’t. I didn’t follow Houston Chicago enough to know if they tanked and if for draft picks. Any non playoff team should trade away players with expiring contracts and that will make them bad. They shouldn’t spend money unless it will get them a playoff spot. Did Houston Chicago do something else to intentionally lose games?
Trashtros didn’t win from tanking. They won by having low character
Great article, Anthony- thanks. And good to hear that the owners aren’t caving. Hold strong, owners! And don’t give in anymore!! The players already receive great treatment and the season could be cancelled and the country would hardly care or even notice and you also know that you could have a much greater ROI with other investments. Enough is enough!!!
Stand firm players! Don’t let the bullies, owners, push you around any longer! Enough is enough! The owners own this lockout and all the repercussions that come with it!!!
Stand Firm!
BTW, you won’t get paid for games not played!
Not to be rude, but that is about as simple minded a response as is possible. Anyone who only sees one side of a dispute really doesn’t understand the dispute to begin with.
Owners are weak. Nothing strong about them. How do you think the players have what the have? How many players could make over 500 grand anywhere else? Yet every single one of them does.
I actually agree in a major way. Owners should be holding a lot stronger than they are and they should be giving in nothing at all.
“The players already receive great treatment”
The owners make money hand over fist at the expense of the players. There’s a reason they refuse to bust open the books and show people just how much money they’re making off their teams, not including the skyrocketing total value of each franchise. Absolutely mind-boggling that anyone would choose to be on the owners’ side here. If you don’t support the players, I fully understand, but to cape for the owners, who are infinitely greedier than the players, makes no sense to me.
Replace all of the owners with new ones and almost no one would care. Replace all of the players and almost no one would watch.
The MLB players have fought for their money while MiLB players get practically nothing. Horrible pay and living conditions for a possibility to get to the Majors, then wait out the 6 years of Free Agency. And now some owners aren’t even signing the middle class MLB players anymore.
It’s a very tough situation and there are pluses to both sides but the players in the lower levels and beginning their careers get barely anything if they don’t make it which is a HUGE deterrent to players.
People aren’t forced to play minor league baseball. Unless my kids are 1st round talents they will choose the college scholarship over minor league baseball and unless they really love baseball which they don’t they will choose instant six figure careers over minor league baseball.
“instant six figures” lol
Gave you thumbs up for replying. Not sure how to reply back. Are you laughing because you don’t believe they will make six figures? If so it’s not that hard to do. Major in the right field of study or simply have a connection. If it’s laughing at the amount of money well can’t think of anything I can do about it. I don’t have that good of connections and not aware of what degree can fetch that income year one. Maybe they can act or be youtube stars or something.
Instant 6 figure salaries are a thing if you major in BioChemical engineering or something like that and live in a ridiculously high cost of living area like LA.
Not something that exists everywhere or for everybody as the GM is making it sound.
Teams turn over their roster with few exceptions every six years, and that turnover is what helps get people to watch. So your assumption is wrong. Put Cherington in charge of the Yankees, and there would be a few fans that would care.
Absolutely wrong. I would pay to watch the neighbor kids play ball. I don’t give a rip about the current players, and think sweeping them all out is the way to go. So much greed on both sides. The issue for me is competitive balance, and the CBT provides none. Hard cap/floor like all the other leagues or bust the union. It’s the only way to give the small markets a chance to compete.
Except it doesn’t do that in the other sports. At all.
Bluff
How much time do you spend watching High School baseball?
I’m not siding with the owners or the players, I just want them to get a deal done. Period.
Each day that passes it’s becoming more and more obvious that a portion of the season will be canceled. The only question is how many games will they end up playing…
The season is too long as it is anyway. As far as I’m concerned I wouldn’t mind it at all if the regular season didn’t start until May 1st. Every. Season.
I kind of liked the 60 game season. That would serve both owners and players right, cutting income and salaries over 50%.
Just meet in the middle and get it over with.
The whole thing makes no sense, and this is just another example- the prevailing pessimism that is overtaking the world.
MLB is just one example.
How long since you’ve seen any optimism in what goes on around you?
I’m an optimist by nature, but MLB and MLBPA are certainly testing my optimism!
Fortunately, I do, all the time, through my church. There’s only one source of perpetual optimism in a broken world, man – God.
A strong amen to that, Yankee Clipper!
Yankee, I knew there was a reason I liked you.
Jesus did say it would be this way……until the Seattle Mariners would appear in a World Series.
All optimism for me. No boss. Kids classically educated. Enjoy life. Prepper just in case.
Other than an increased minimum salary (maybe 750k) and earlier arbitration for some players I honestly don’t see the players problem. Like everybody else in America – get to work! If you want control everything be an owner. Same thing told to almost every other American worker. In the end, no matter how rare is your job – you’re still just a worker
Everybody wants everything they can get.
“If you want control everything be an owner.”
Simple as that! Why don’t the players just become owners! Makes so much sense.
The point is they can’t, so they have little leverage. If you don’t like something in the world you can work to change it. If you lack the skills or drive to get to that position you are in no position to demand anything (in the private sector) There is no game without the owners. People make the obtuse argument that they pay to see players. Without owners you’re watching guys in shorts playing in parks. I certainly don’t defend greedy corporations, but the truth is the players are paid extremely well. Yes, fringe players don’t do as well, but they still make way more than the average person. This is a sport with guaranteed contracts where many a ton of money while underperforming or not playing at all.
We live in a capitalist society – if you want to make tons, you have to accept failure. You’re not entitled to a safety net if what you choose to do doesn’t work out.
Some teams actually lose money and a lot of the money is in valuation over time, so it’s very easy to be something you don’t fully understand.
Greenberg
We already know your statement is hogwash, as we have non affiliated pro baseball. Current MLB players would have jobs instantly if they wanted.
We know owners are heavily leveraged in ballpark villages, hotels, and restaurants that rely on large numbers of fans. Why would fans flock to watch games played by inferior players, and without fans and TV viewership, how will owners pay stadium leases or any other overhead associated with ownership. Major League Baseball ownership would be a nightmare.
Would you go pay the same prices to watch WNBA players play in NBA arenas? Would you pay to watch minor league hockey players play for the same price as NHL? Would you go to Augusta to watch a Korn Ferry tournament and pay the same prices for lodging and food that you do to watch Phil or Tiger?
No one honestly believes any major sport can exist with inferior product. People want to see the best, and it’s always been this way.
A smart person would root for the workers with the most leverage to succeed and create a template for other to follow to improve their own wages and working conditions.
A mind warped lemming pawn footstool for the rich would root for other workers to be crushed because of curated jealousy.
We are talking about a sport! The template has already been provided. If you Play Better get paid more. You’re trying to sound smart over something elementary. All that foot stool talk is unnecessary and irrelevant.
@Casor_Greener: Your dismissive statement is the American perspective and it’s one that has seen far too many years. “Either be a worker and get back to work” (for terrible wages), or be an owner and watch others work for my next lambo, but never be a worker and not work. Alas, the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” mantra. Tell me something that’s cool when you’re a billionaire, but not cool when you’re poor: “Not working”.
I don’t speak for the players here, but when wages are losing traction against buying power for real assets such as housing, there’s little incentive to work for a billionaire that’s seeking another mega-yacht. This goes for all of us. To hell with owners.
Casor
Every human is “just a worker”. You serve someone no matter who you are. Some just have more to gain or lose, and some have more leverage than others.
When you sign on the dotted line in baseball, you’re conceding your leverage to be employed to one organization for up to twelve years. The first six years of this agreement you are compensated by poverty wages. The next three capped at league minimum, despite your overall contribution to league value, and the next three to four years are cost controlled and subject to judgement by an arbiter.
Name another profession where you have to devote as much time and energy in your youth, teen years, and early twenties for the chance at an average window of three years for one employer.
You’re possibly giving up twelve years to one employer, who already has total control of where and when you work, and for how much, and you’re also doing this under five year labor agreements. You’d better make sure the things you can control are controlled, and you’d better make sure they are trending in the right direction for the next wave that’s going through what you did.
Your assessment of the situation is not entirely accurate.
They get poverty wages after usually getting a decent bonus correct? Don’t other people work for poverty wages too?
I don’t believe The next three are “capped” at league minimum but I understand where you are going with it, That being said, the league minimum is pretty high and often compensated by the previously addressed bonus.
As far as devoting years to your profession – that’s all by choice and many others devote times to earning their positions, don’t get half as much money, and get laid off .That’s life.
For the record, you are the one who compared baseball players to everyone else. Also notice I advocated for an increased minimum and more people to start arbitration earlier. This revenue sharing and bonus pool stuff not so much.
Name another profession outside of sports where the workers demand a new share of the profits every 4-5 years. It never ceases to amaze me how so many people I’m assuming are republicans start siding with labor when it comes to baseball…
Bump the minimum salary. If you are one of the best 700 or 800 or so in a highly competitive field, you deserve it.
The threshold is fine, just lower the penalties.
As for the players, lower the demand of how many players qualify for arbitration. Lower the bonus pool. The deserving players will get arbitration soon enough. Make it 33% eligible for arbitration, not 80%.
Let’s solve this.
Yep, it can be solved by starting at a reasonable place like you say. Not by each side starting at their respective extreme and hoping to gain an extra 2% win.
Lower the minimum salary. 100 grand. If you don’t like it you can find another profession. 90 some percent of players won’t be able to make more elsewhere. And even if they did, after working 7 years they won’t have the opportunity to make 10s or 100s of millions unless they are able to dunk a basketball or have a great 40 yard time.
MLB doing the scummy sub-COLA yearly increases for those making MLB minimum?
*fart noise*
Owners that want the season to happen: blink twice if Bob Nutting and Dick Monfort are holding you hostage.
Almost like that’s exactly what MLB wants to gain more leverage over the MLBPA
Cancel the entire season. Won’t effect me any. I will find other things to spend money on and other things to watch on tv. Hopefully the owners and players can make as much money with their other ventures.
Hates baseball. Comes here to tell us.
Not sure how you got that from what I said. I enjoy baseball or wouldn’t be talking about it in February during a lockout. But I won’t be losing any sleep over any lost games. Life has lots to offer including minor league baseball which will be the place to be to see the best players in world.
Hard to miss, sorry.
pretty sure it’s just another one of Voice or reasons accounts he likes to use to agree with his terrible takes
The point is they can’t, so they have little leverage. If you don’t like something in the world you can work to change it. If you lack the skills or drive to get to that position you are in no position to demand anything (in the private sector) There is no game without the owners. People make the obtuse argument that they pay to see players. Without owners you’re watching guys in shorts playing in parks. I certainly don’t defend greedy corporations, but the truth is the players are paid extremely well. Yes, fringe players don’t do as well, but they still make way more than the average person. This is a sport with guaranteed contracts where many a ton of money while underperforming or not playing at all.
We live in a capitalist society – if you want to make tons, you have to accept failure. You’re not entitled to a safety net if what you choose to do doesn’t work out.
Some teams actually lose money and a lot of the money is in valuation over time, so it’s very easy to be something you don’t fully understand.
There are some clear non-starters on both sides. There are some clear pathways to agreement on both sides.
This is about whose willing to risk losing more. As I’ve said before, I think the owners ultimately have the most to lose if they double – down on canceling the games and possibly the season. Paying the players and getting games moving turns immediate profit. Nasty battles that result in season cancellations have long-term financial effects on the owners in addition to the season’s lost revenue.
– just an observation
I’ll bet most teams lose money after Opening Day until school lets out, especially in colder climates.
That’s a valid point and I’m certain they’ve got that math down to the penny in the front offices. They’re hedging their bets that the players’ losses during that time will hurt more than their relatively minimal losses. A great point nonetheless.
Where it will hurt them, however, is with the TV contracts, but I’m not exactly sure how that is resolved, ie, prorated, etc.
Yeah if the owners had to lose 2 months of games they would choose April May.
@yankee So if the owners suffer long term financial effects, do you think they will just live with them? Or pass those effects on to the players? I wouldn’t want to be a free agent player after the owners lost revenue.
Yes, that’s also a good point. Billionaires tend not to lose money. It’ll get passed on to players, fans, parking guys, whomever. But, they’re making it up, for sure.
They can’t pass it on to fans or parking guys. Sure they can increase the cost of tickets but that doesn’t mean I have to buy those tickets. And the parking guy only works there because it’s the best paying job he can obtain. If they cut his wages he doesn’t have to just accept it. If he can make more elsewhere he will go elsewhere. If they could charge more for tickets and concessions they would already be doing so. They done extensive research to find the sweet spot for maximum profit.
How long before the unemployed union members start to get antsy?
Really antsy?
A long time. They’re pissed.
Owners over the decades have always expected the MLBPA to collapse and it never has when the players show up for serious negotiations.
This still comes down to posturing. Both sides will come together eventually because both sides have much gain with an agreement.
Maybe MLBTR can look into MLBPA’s strike pay situation. I wonder if they put things in place after after the 1994 strike to strengthen their bargaining power.
For many they would cave early
But the actual players negotiating make 8 and 9 figures already, so they are in for the long haul
How many paychecks would you have to miss before you got antsy?
1
In the MLB Trade Rumors poll I predicted the lockout to end on March 15th with the season starting May 1st. Looks like I’ll be wrong on both counts as now It looks like if we have baseball by Memorial Day we’ll be lucky
Why would Manfred try to lie again? The league can impose any season length it wants, but whatever that season length is, it constitutes a full season and the players must be paid every dollar they are contracted for. The exception would be if the players were on strike but they aren’t The only players that lose money are free agents who are not signed yet and they only lose if they agree to a lower compensation. Just look at 2020. The players had to agree to prorated salaries.
Lie?
They players are not going to get paid for games that are missed. The union can negotiate for back pay, but good luck with that.
You said the same thing 2 years ago and it wasn’t true then either.
Wrong. Players are paid based on a full 162 game regular season schedule. That is their agreed upon yearly base pay divided by 162 times times 14 (days over 2 weeks) since they are paid every 2 weeks
The billionaires will always be in charge , they could miss the whole season and not lose a nights sleep they are billionaires. The same can’t be said about the players. The players should negotiate until they get as many improvements as they can and sign a deal so the players still under owners control can pay their bills
Even billionaires want to keep making the most money they can.
Are you serious? Those billionaires are businesspeople and they are not going to want to lose $2 billion per month in revenue while still having to SPEND money. The players are resolute. A united front. Since 2018 the MLBPA has been putting aside money for this very negotiation because they knew it would be exactly like it has turned out to be and they have nearly a billion in a fund that is gathering interest as we speak to continue to negotiate until they get what they want in the new CBA. That is nearly 25% of the players total earning from 2021. They will have no problems paying their bills.
Well, then the season is going to be a wash. I can’t imagine the owners cave this time. There is nothing in the players proposals that do anything to create competitive balance. There really is no hope for the small markets without a cap/floor system like all the other leagues have. The CBT has very little benefit to quality veteran players, and the small market owners have way more to lose by agreeing to a system that gives them no chance to compete. Until the players wake up and realize that no one needs them and people would pay to watch scrubs off the street, there really isn’t much hope. It’s time to bust this union.
The question is what things are most improtant to the players and owners? In order of importance the players want higher starting salary, higher bonus pool, and higher CBT with lower penalties. The owners want 14 team playoff, lower bonus pool, and lower CBT higher penalties. Players give aways- 14 team playoff and lottery of 4 teams! The owners give a higher starting salary, 30 million in bonus money, and higher CBT with lower penalties.
What is most important to the players is closing the $2 billion per season gap between the percentage of the revenue they make and what the players in every other sport make. NFL players are guaranteed 48.8% of revenue, NHL 50%, and NBA 49-51%. MLB?? About 38% in 2021. Over the previous CBA the revenue of the sport went up 30% and player salaries went down 20%. THAT is what is most important. Everything else is a piece of the puzzle to get that done. Since the largest percentage of MLB players in history, 63.2%, are pre-arbitration eligible, the union can gain the most by getting them paid more and sooner. So they started by asking for arbitration eligibility to start at 2 years instead of 3. When the owners balked at that, they have come to the point now where they are asking for 75% of the players with between 2 and 3 years of service time get into arbitration and there is a pool of $115 million for the hundreds of other players with between 0 and <3 years of service time that don't qualify for arbitration. That is a START that would put about $200 million per season in young player pockets in the new CBA.
Increasing the CBT Threshold while either keeping penalties the same as the previous CBA or lowering them as the MLBPA is asking for would add an undetermined amount to the players side of the equation. There are no teams that make less than $250 million in revenue anymore and even small market teams like the Padres and Pirates are over $300 million. The top 3 are over $600 million and another 6 are over $500 million. All 9 of those top revenue teams can easily afford to spend $250 million on MLB payroll and still be in the black. The players are never going to agree to a lower CBT or higher penalties. Teams were already acting as if the CBT threshold was a hard cap they had to duck back under every year or two. Stiffer penalties turn it into something the players have said for decades that they will never agree to, a hard cap.
A 14 team playoff increases revenue for the owners by $450-500 million. A 12 team playoff with a 3 game WC series that the players have already agreed to increases revenue by >>$250 million. How do they plan to compensate the players for that. Considering the TV money for the playoffs is 4 times the gate revenue, giving the players a 30% pool from the gate is not something the players will agree to unless the owners give something huge in the regular season.
MLB revenue went up 30% over the term of the previous CBA while player salaries went down 20%. The CBT threshold started at $195 million in the previous CBA. Increasing it by 30% would have put it at $253.5 million. The MLBPA initially asked for $255 million and a 2% increase per season. Slightly more than 30% and less than inflation increases annually. They have since made a concession of lowing it to $245 million, which is less than a 30% increase. That is entirely fair to both sides. The owners can easily afford it. The owners have no reason not to agree to that. Except greed.
MLB revenue went up 30% over the term of the previous CBA while player salaries went down 20%. MLB minimum started at $535k in the previous CBA. A 30% raise would be $695,000. The players asked for $775k. Considering there are more pre-arbitration players than ever before in MLB history today, an increase of >25% since the beginning of the previous CBA, that is not out of line. Especially since other than CBT increases, all of the player proposals have been designed to get money to the younger players. It would move $27 million per season to the players side of the equation on average. Less than $1 million per team. The owners are now offering $640K with annual increases that average 1.5%. They started at $615k with annual increases. Again, what the players are asking for is fair to both sides and affordable for the owners.
I meant to say the owners started at $615k with no annual increases
Sorry, it would not be $27 million. It would be $60.75 million and $2 million per team. Forgot to add in the 2nd year players and those between 2-3 years of service time that would not make super two status. Didn’t proof read before hitting post. My bad.
A hard cap is exactly what the players should agree to. It would benefit everyone. It is clear that all you care about is money. Some of us care about the game. If the players do not realize that the game is the most important part, and the current players and their money have zero relevance, there won’t be a deal. You can get your percentages through a hard cap system, and good quality veteran players will be able to find a contract. With a ridiculous CBT system the only markets that benefit are the large ones, which leads to all of the tanking you claim to want to avoid. I am a fan of the game, and of a small market team. I don’t want to see the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox blow their dough and buy playoff teams every year. I sincerely hope the owners stick to their plan or just wash the season.
CBT system benefits small-market teams. And very much so. Actually, the entire system is designed in favor of a small-market team. A cap would not work in favor of a small market. It’s a smokescreen and doesn’t work as evidenced in all the other sports. It won’t/can’t work any better in MLB. Small market owners simply refuse to spend and your solution is to try to rig a winning team by limiting everyone else – it doesn’t work, my friend. I understand your desire for your team to do better, but handicapping the league won’t help your team. In fact, it will do exactly the opposite because the revenue shares will go down.
@outinleft: And NOW who keeps repeating the $2 billion gap mantra in almost every post? What a hypocrite.
Owners are proposed a $214 million CBT threshold, only marginally higher than in 2021, with stiffer penalties of 50%, 75%, and 100% plus draft pick losses and increased international free agent pool losses. That is not at all what you said.
Your analysis is far too simple. The higher pre-arb salaries inflate the players arb salaries. Which is where team owners feel that impact even more. That 60MM number is far too low on the overall increase to team salaries.
The player’s “giveaways” have been on free agency which is the very biggest core economic point of all, arbitration, and all the moves on other points including CBT, expanded playoffs, and minimum salary.
And the players have said if any games are canceled, the owners hopes of expanded postseason and the $100M that comes with it is also off the table. In other words, posturing on both sides.
The increase in the minimum salary is not a serious offer. It’s below the inflation rate since the last CBA was negotiated. It represents a pay cut as revenues have skyrocketed. That doesn’t even account for the potential double-digit inflation we’re heading toward here in the U.S. moving forward.
I remain positive they’ll find a path to an agreement.
Revenues have not “skyrocketed.” Before Covid, leaguewide revenue was rising 4-5% per year. Lower since Covid so not relevant unless it is permanent.
MLB Revenue
2003 3.880 billion
2004 4.270
2005 4.730
2006 5.110
2007 5.480
2008 5.820
2009 5.900
2010 6.140
2011 6.360 billion
2012 6.810
2013 7.100
2014 7.860
2015 8.390
2016 9.030
2017 9.460
2018 9.900
2019 10.370
This is from “Spotrac. Forbes has numbers a bit higher.
Revenues have far outpaced salaries, which have actually declined, on average, over the previous CBA.
Almost like it’s in the incentive of players to participate in a revenue split scheme. But that’s a nonstarter for them.
Players should push for a revenue split/cap and floor system so they can take advantage of increasing revenues.
Inflation rate? Are the TV contracts tied to inflation or are they locked in. And the owner’s expenses go up and their revenues are only expanded if they raise ticket prices, which is a drop in the ocean.
Tying this into inflation is ridiculous. Inflation costs the owners more than the employees. I don’t know why you keep doing it.
Therefore, are you suggesting salaries should go down to deal with the cost of inflation?
@Halo11Fan, I think you might want to go back and take your economics class again.
Since the Angels signed a media deal long ago, and the price is locked in, how is their revenue going up without raising ticket prices?
So stop with the smart ass remarks and tell me. They are not McDonalds that can raise the price of a Big Mac and fries.
It’s not they can raise their advertising fees or get more money from a signed TV contact.
Did you go to the AOC school of economics?
The Angels signed a 20 year 3 billion dollar TV deal that expires in 2030. Are they going to renegotiate and claim there should be a retroactive inflation clause?
Do you think the Angels negotiated their media deal with absolutely no concern or understanding of future inflation rates? The other poster is right. You don’t have a clue and should take another economics class. Should not be surprised you’re unnecessarily bringing in AOC and disparaging her when you have such a limited conception of negotiations.
And the owners’ $10k increases are laughable. It’s a 1.5% raise. It’s not a serious offer. Don’t be dizzied by the $640,000 mark. The ‘increases’ may as well not exist. To put it in context, for a worker making $10/hr, these ‘increases’ are the equivalent of a 15 cent/hour raise ($6/week).
So there was an inflation clause? So the 3 billion dollar deal went up?
I’m saying the players raises should not be tied to inflation. The owners have been screwing the young players forever, they deserve more money because they have always deserved more money. Inflation has little to do with it.. This isn’t a business that can simply raise the cost of their product to match inflation and salaries.
Inflation only comes into play in the initial term of a new agreement. Nobody can predict inflation. We all hope that 2021 was an outlier. But the value of money is directly impacted by inflation, so $500,000 in 2020 is worth less than it was in 2021.
:I’m sure the players would be delighted to increase salaries based on the rate of growth in TV contracts, though.
Just food for thought but here’s an article that speaks to how baseball salary increases trail that of its sister sports, while revenue increases are greater:
sportico.com/leagues/baseball/2021/mlb-lockout-bas…
Moreover, referencing statistica.com, every team in the MLB has increased its revenues substantially over the past twenty years, with the obvious exception of 2020. That includes both the Pirates and the Rays before revenue-sharing, which pays for their rosters plus some. It wouldn’t let me post the links here for some reason (maybe paywall?).
Finally, each MLB team is now considered a billion-dollar enterprise and there were 13 teams with payrolls under $100M in ‘21.
I write this because I’ve seen a lot of discussion points referencing the lack of affordability and revenue increases for baseball team owners, but evidence points to the contrary. Just some information to ponder.
Not sure who said expanded playoffs would be worth only $100 million, but the articles in the Athletic have said that a 14 team playoff would increase TV, gate, and sponsorship money by >$450 million. A 12 team playoff with 3 game Wild Card series as the players proposed would increase that revenue by >$250 million. If the players got the $775k minimum salary they were proposing it would mean an increase in pre-arbitration player salaries of an average of $60.75 million per season. You are absolutely right that the increase from the owners was not serious. Its an insult. Revenue in MLB went up 30% in the last CBA. That minimum should reflect at least the 30% increase in revenue if not more. $695k is a 30% increase.
The ESPN contract pays MLB an extra $100 million per season, or $700 million over the life of the seven year deal with expanded playoffs.
MLB would get that, plus their cut of the gate receipts that doesn’t go to players.
Plus, there’s nothing like a playoff run to boost season ticket sales the following season.
It won’t get serious for players until they start missing paychecks. It won’t get serious for owners until they start missing gate receipts once warm weather arrives in May. Hence my prediction that we won’t see MLB games until Memorial Weekend
Gate receipts are <<30% of revenue. That is not a serious issue for the owners. TV is. That makes up 2/3 or revenue for nearly every team. Owners start losing TV revenue on the day the first spring training game is not played. Each day of games lost in the regular season is $67 million the owners lose. The largest gate of the season is the home opening series. That is true for every team. Gate in April is larger than May, June, or September in nearly every season. I think that is because the opening series is so big and there is still hope for every team in April.
If a new 5-year CBA is in place and the lockout is lifted by the owners and the players union prior to Monday’s deadline, then the upcoming 2022 season will start as planned on March 31, so all 30 teams will continue making offseason moves.
Pitchers need 6 weeks of pitching in game situations in order to build up to 90-100 pitches. The season cannot start on time unless the spring training games start on February 26th. If they start March 5th as the owners are claiming is now the earliest, then the regular season would have to be delayed at least 1 week.
ANOTHER repeated mantra. With the sixweek ST. Go away son. As Eastwood said in “Heartbreak Ridge” you can beat me and starve me, just don’t bore me.”
MLB is threatening to Cancel Games and possibly the Season, not the MLBPA.
MLB needs to lose its Anti-Trust Protection and if the MLBPA was smart they would File Suit against the MLB.
The players making minimum wage would revolt , the millionaires need to think twice about that . Boros and his agent buddies are the ones blowing in players ear . He wants to control the whole show
Jimbob, as usual you are WRONG on all counts. The players have asked Congress to withdraw MLB’s anti-trust exemption many times. That is not something they would “revolt” about because it would mean the players would have much more leverage in negotiations including those MLB minimum players. Boras is not a part of the negotiations at all. He is not at the table and by Federal law he is not allowed to even present ideas to the union about the CBA.
And nearly everyone else but you is wrong…right?
If you don’t think Boros is at the head of this your nuts
This is a ridiculous narrative about Scott Boras.
Scott Boras is filthy rich no matter what happens with the CBA. The worst time for him is when work is stopped. His name is nothing but a buzzword or a ridiculous excuse for some complaint you have.
Wow, so there might be less games of 32 strikeouts and a dozen pitching changes, plus a SS playing shallow RF. MLB has become a laughingstock
Here’s a possible scenario: a shortened season and the players go on strike at the end of the regular season, resulting in NO playoffs or World Series.
Good strategy for the players. Owners definitely won’t remember that going forward.
A more probable scenario, the owners lift the lockout in April. The players immediately go on strike. The owners start losing $67 million in revenue per day. The owners get serious about bridging the gap between the 30% increase in revenue they had the last 5 years and the 20% decrease in player salaries over the same time frame.
Forget the millionaires, break the union!
The players need to realize that there is just too much ground to make up to change the whole system and that they need to get what concessions they can now and play ball. Otherwise, they are just punishing themselves by losing money every game missed while the owners lose almost nothing (unless the players actually choose to sit out the ENTIRE season including playoffs). It may not be fair but it’s the reality they are in; I really feel that the only two options that make sense for them are to get a deal done by the 28th with whatever scraps they can elicit from the owners, or not suit up at all in 2022 (and I can’t imagine they have the support within their own union for that).
Owners won’t lose money. Any loses will just be smaller salary for free agents and more players being non tender. Teams that got hurt with the short 2020 season corrected their margins after.
The owners lose >>$60 million in revenue every DAY during the regular season if there are no games in 2022. In 2020 they got still got TV money because that was protected by “Acts of God” clauses in all the national and most of the local TV deals. The owners will start losing money on February 26th when the spring training games don’t happen, but that is far less money than during the regular season. So what you attempted to say is not reality. Its a fallacy. There is a $2 billion gap to make up between the players making a fair share of revenue and what they made in 2021. The owners have not moved at all yet. They will have to make huge concessions if there is to be a season at all.
Players will likely have to get as close to their demands as possible then settle in for a February 28th agreement or else their ultimate goal of getting players paid will start taking a tumble with lost salaries. Then again, the owners will lose their expanded playoffs and even more money if regular season games are cancelled.
There’s still 5 more days and a lot to get covered, but one side will give in and a deal will be reached on February 28th. Players will ultimately give in. I don’t see how they’ll “win” given the history of the CBA and the owners absolutely crushing them in prior negotiations.
Also, the PA wants the league to be more competitive but I see a more competitive scene under the owners eyes. They wanted a bigger playoff bracket (for revenue obviously) which opens up more opportunity for teams to be competitive, and a lower CBT won’t give so much power to big markets.
“Also, the PA wants the league to be more competitive”
I can’t figure out how allowing 10 or so teams to spend double the amount than 10 or so teams are even capable of spending will make things more competitive? Actually starting to think the players just want more money and can care less about competitiveness.
Every team is capable of spending at least $125 million on MLB player salaries. The top 9-10 teams can spend at least $250 million and still be profitable. The sport saw a 30% increase in revenue over the past 5 years while the players saw a 20% drop in median salary.
The Pirates pull in ~250 million dollars of revenue each year. Spending 125 million dollars on salary doesn’t count players benefits. So you have to add another 15 million on top of that for a real expenditure number. Then you have every other cost that is involved with a baseball team (Minor Leagues, Front office, coaches, support staff, stadium contracts/maintenance) and then expect to get a decent ROI. Just won’t happen at that figure year in and year out.
Which is why you see teams run up payrolls at some point and scale back at others. Does this need to be improved? Sure. The Pirates can run out a 40MM payroll for 7-8 years and make a fat profit at their discretion. That’s not right either.
I doubt it. The owners are going to have to start losing regular season games in order to feel real pressure and the union has been preparing since 2018 to do just that if the owners were not reasonable. The owners have not been reasonable so far. So there is no reason to believe that the players are just going to cave in.
Let’s go Caps!
Let’s go Ducks!!
Fans deserve better, and they will walk if this travesty of negotiations leads to truncation of the schedule.
Canceling any regular season games would be a goddamn embarrassment
I suppose the players could threaten to strike at the end of the season to ensure that owners don’t get post season profits–assuming that the owners allow for regular season games and player salaries to be lost due to “their lockout” and failure to bargain in good faith.
Makes it hard to care about the regular season games in that case, but it could be a last minute bargaining threat for the players.
I just want to see major-league baseball.
But I also want both sides to give and receive honestly and fairly equally.
The Employer/employee relationship is not equal and will never be. Being well compensated is the most any employee can expect. In 1972, the players could make the argument that they weren’t well compensated. Not the case today.
What do you not understand? There is no contract!!! Players can’t be forced to play without a CBA and owners have no obligation either.
A playoff strike isn’t a bargaining threat. The owners will simply make up that revenue at the players expense.
It won’t get that far, because the players will not come back under the previous CBA. They would strike immediately. MLB will not come back under the previous BA either because the CBT agreement has sunsetted so there would be no limit and no penalties. The teams could spend as much as they want. So MLB will not lift the lockout for fear that the players would accept that.
So why would the players strike then if owners like Cohen and a few others would spend to no end? Just what the players want right ?
So basically games will be cancelled, because it seems highly unlikely that they will reach an agreement in the next 5 days.
While I support the players in their fight with the owners, I no longer really care who wins and who loses. It is their business what each side is willing to agree in order to get a resolution. But I do think that both sides are taking the fans for granted. It is our interest in this sport that bankrolls everything. And do not assume we will all come flocking back to the park if this thing drags on. There are other things we can do with our time and it is to their detriment if we are given more time to fully explore a life without baseball.
Let me think. I love to fish & work in our garden. I live over 250 miles from Detroit. I get two days off every week/most weeks, sometimes I work 6 days.. Do I want to waste a whole day driving & watching a game two or three times a season? Or would I prefer to sit on the Lake relaxing? My family usually drives down there a few times per season. And we spend !!!!! But, I do hold a Grudge very well. I also get home from work after 9:00, I have a 45 minute drive & I am wiped out by then. TV ratings may drop a bit by me too. My family & I love the Tigers but do they Love us?
The answer is yes they do. The Illich Family does take care of their Fans. I scheduled a Group Attendance for my Dads Birthday & they put our name on the Scoreboard welcoming us.
We are lucky, we have Great Owners in Detroit & Michigan. Time will tell on Chris but I have Faith in him too.
I can care less how they divide up the money. If it entertains me I will watch.
The point is they can’t, so they have little leverage. If you don’t like something in the world you can work to change it. If you lack the skills or drive to get to that position you are in no position to demand anything (in the private sector) There is no game without the owners. People make the obtuse argument that they pay to see players. Without owners you’re watching guys in shorts playing in parks. I certainly don’t defend greedy corporations, but the truth is the players are paid extremely well. Yes, fringe players don’t do as well, but they still make way more than the average person. This is a sport with guaranteed contracts where many a ton of money while underperforming or not playing at all.
We live in a capitalist society – if you want to make tons, you have to accept failure. You’re not entitled to a safety net if what you choose to do doesn’t work out.
Some teams actually lose money and a lot of the money is in valuation over time, so it’s very easy to be something you don’t fully understand.
Are you stuck on repeat? I’ve read the same rambling at least three times so far. It wasn’t that smart the first time, so I wouldn’t keep plastering it up continuously.
So you are claiming that you go to games to watch the owners? What exactly do they do? They don’t pay for the ballparks. Taxpayers do. They don’t pay for salaries. Fans do. So what exactly do the owners do. I am a business owner and at least I understand that now that my business is large enough, I am the least important cog in this wheel. My job is to enable others to do their jobs and treat them like family so they keep doing it for me. do you really believe the MLB owners are doing that? No team loses money. None of them have revenue under $250 million anymore. Even the smallest revenue teams can afford a $125 million payroll and still be profitable.
Cue Pads Fans posting 100 comments from multiple accounts about how the owners are going to have to pay the players their full, non-prorated salaries no matter how many games there are.
Only if that’s what the new CBA says.
No lottery because as stated above teams will tank to get into the lottery. If you pick 1st one year the best you can pick the next year is the last pick before the playoff teams. The next year the best you can pick is 8th. The next year is 5th. But just to fight tanking if in any year the team record for year 2 or 3 beats the penalized draft position and so the team drafts even lower then the penalty period is voided.
No lottery because as stated above teams will tank to get into the lottery. If you pick 1st one year the best you can pick the next year is the last pick before the playoff teams. The next year the best you can pick is 8th. Thr next year is 5th. But just to fight tanking if in any year the team record for year 2 or 3 beats the penalized draft position and so the team drafts even lower then the penalty period is voided.
March 1st and no agreement is when I do not subscribe to MLB @ Bat. Greedy Millionaires and billionaires do not need my chump change ( especially in a bad economy where I am working like a dog just to put food on the table for the family)..
The owners are trying to ram a deal down the player’s throats. I hope they miss A LOT of games, and both sides go hungry.
No lottery because as stated above teams will tank to get into the lottery. If you pick 1st one year the best you can pick the next year is the last pick before the playoff teams. The next year the best you can pick is 8th. Thrnext year is 5th. But just to fight tanking if in any year the team record for year 2 or 3 beats the penalized draft position and so the team drafts even lower then the penalty period is voided.
I guess when this is done, MLB will need more juiced players breaking records to bring back fans. Let’s hope for some pitchers striking out 1,000 batters in a season and a 200HR season.
Well, the owners did stop testing when they locked the players out.
This is so stupid.i have watched multiple hall of farmers play for a hell of a lot less money in the 47 years I have been attending rangers games than these prima Donna’s and as for the owners the rangers owner is a frigging idiot to begin with and if he loses the Yankees series to open the season he is a bigger idiot than I thought he was because that will cost him 4 full stadiums
You watched the Hall of Famers play for less because 47 years ago, the reserve clause had just ended and owners played hardball for every single dollar then as they do now. If you think the players didn’t complain and try for more money back then, you’re forgetting your history. The current situation is a lock-out, initiated by the owners. The players you’ve watched over the last 47 years, who you apparently do not consider ‘prima Donna’s’, went on strike in 1972, 1980, 1981, 1985, and 1994-95. The owners initiated lock-outs in 1973, 1976, and 1990. This is nothing new.
No, he watched the Hall of Farmers.
Purdue, Redenbacher, Colonel Sanders, etc.
Why would these players play for less? History shows if they ask for more and are willing to miss games they have a good chance of getting more. Owners have already offered more so if I was a player I would be seeing if I can get the owners to give me even more.
The owners have not offered more. At all.
That’s a lie
I’m caring less and less by the day. When folks are done, they will play baseball, whenever that is. And I’ll watch it, when and if I feel like it, The players want more than they can realistically get, and the owners aren’t seriously bargaining. They want their crow jewels–14 team playoff, a harder, more punitive cap, the continuance of unlimited subsidized tanking, and plenty of exploitation of younger players, LMK when the war is over.
I would be for missing this season to get a hard cap in at around $160 million and a salary floor of $100k but they are just arguing over little things.
The owners have quarter insurance on seasonal insurance against games not played.So they get off from game 1 to game 40 on their first financial reserve payment on the schedule insurance.So its my guess if they miss game 1 they will be in no hurry to make a deal.
Even if that is true, you can’t collect insurance money on a loss you intentionally cause.
They can’t. Federal labor law prohibits it. They could have set aside money they earned already like the union did, but they can’t get insurance.
Sigh. The league wants the get to 2/28. They’re not going to make any real concessions until then and they don’t think they’re going to have to make any real concession after then because they think the players are going to fold.
I hope they’re wrong.
I’ve got no love for the players but the bottom line is the owners initiated the lockout, the owners waited weeks to initiate substantive conversations, the owners have still yet to make a serious proposal or a single concession of value. It is absolutely true that the players can’t be said to be in the right. But the owners are doubly in the wrong.
If the owners are willing to miss games or seasons they can do whatever they want.
Well, for me, there is a silver lining if MLB cancels games. No expanded playoffs. I want to see excellence in the playoffs, not teams merely above average.
The opposite is if they go to 14 team playoffs I will have no reason to watch regular season. I know I am a minority on this because people still watch nba nhl regular seasons.
I’ve said since the start of the lockout that opening day will be May 1st.
Wish I could post the ‘flipping the bird’ emoji. That pretty much sums up my feelings toward both sides.
Honestly, while I know expanded playoffs are better for the owners why wouldn’t the players agree to that? Those 4 extra teams have guys who are arbitration eligible…youngsters…and why wouldn’t they want the extra opportunity to drag their team deep into the post season and snag some extra $$$ in arbitration.
Who cares what Max Scherzer thinks? He’s a gazillionaire regardless. If the MLBPA really cared about the young guys, rather then for to the mat on arbitration pool money or higher league minimum. Take the extra games and opportunities to shine.
You play well in a meaningful October game…and the $$$ flows.
They’re not going to agree for two reasons: First, players do not collect a set salary for playoff games (they’re paid based on a 162 game regular season). Players do receive a share of the gate revenue (just ticket sales – not TV money) to be split amongst the clubhouse however the team votes, but that money is also based on the gate revenues for *only* the guaranteed games in a series – so if a series ends in a sweep or goes the full 7, the players still get the same amount.
The other reason is simpler – the players know that the owners want it. They probably are fine with it as well, but when you’re negotiating and you KNOW that the person across the table wants something from you, you hold that back until you can get something you want out of them. It’s the exact reason the players are saying they will in no way agree to an expanded playoff if the owner’s lockout makes them miss any game checks – it’s leverage.
The players get 30% of the actual gate in the playoffs which is put in a pool and shares are voted which includes everyone from players, even ones that are not with the team anymore, to clubhouse attendants, trainers, and coaches.
Playoff performance doesn’t count in arbitration. Just regular season performance and regular season service time. They won’t make any additional money in arbitration. The players don’t get a salary for the playoffs. They get a percentage of the gate and that gate is not even 25% of the total revenue for the playoffs.
Wow! MLB is superior in everyway because there is no “hard cap”. A player should be allowed to earn as much as a team is willing to pay, and teams should be allowed to invest the amount of money it chooses to compete for titles. When it comes to sports you all become Marxists. None of you would accept a preset cap on your earnings and neither should MLB players. Shouldn’t there be a cap on what an actor can get paid to make a silly movie? Can’t we cap what artists make for a concert or an album deal? Why don’t we just cap the salary of CEO’s for Fortune 500 companies? Any thoughts about capping how much owners should be allowed to profit?
Any owner that wants out will have plenty of people ready to buy their teams.
I think we should cap executives salaries
I work in a Chain Store & Union Member. Each Department has A Max on how much an employee can make. That is nothing new, many Businesses do it, Union & Non-Union.
The difference is there are hundreds of thousands of people that can do your job. There are only 780 in the world that are MLB players. 1200 that are on the 40 man roster, some of which will never make the majors.
What a dumb point. And if they fired those 780, there’d be 780 more who’d step up and become MLB players. And of course this is ANOTHER of your very tired mantras.
Players should be able to earn as much as possible. Only question is if they earn more with 30 mlb teams or 20 mlb teams? Some fans will watch baseball no matter what. But some can only take so many rebuilds and consecutive losing seasons.
Each team is a franchise of MLB. Just as if they were a fast food franchise, they want a similar opportunity to succeed as any other franchise, for the cost they paid. Yet in MLB, unlike in fast food, each team is given a different sized market. The Yankees, Dodgers and Boston don’t have to worry about another franchise taking some of their business, even though their territory is much more substantial than KC, Cinci, or Pittsburgh. That’s why the majority of owners want the CBT. It compensates teams in smaller markets, who are supposed to be equal partners inside MLB, by providing a somewhat more equal playing field.
it does not seem reasonable to me that someone who hits 175 over the course of a season is worth the minimum salary the players union is demanding
What percentage of the revenue should go to the players?
more money should go to reducing the ripoff prices for food at the stadium
Giving the owners more money would not reduce the ripoff prices. Owners charge what they think people will pay and adjust accordingly. If you want lower prices, blame the people willing to shell out $12 for a beer, not the players making minimum salary.
Let me rephrase that for you: If you want lower prices, blame the people willing to shell out $12 for a beer, not the players making a minimum of over HALF A MILLION, up to $43,000,000.00 a year.
There. Fixed it for you.
Answer his question. That is the crux of the entire discussion on this CBA. Until you understand and answer that question, there is nothing you can add to the discussion that is clear, logical, or convincing.
DFA
“MLB states”. What a joke. There is no MLB. There are players and owners. The 30 plantation owners ARE the MLB. They just hide behind the concept of a league and a puppet commissioner.
And fans fall for this every single time.
Until an owner goes bankrupt and a team gets dissolved stop coddling these rich jerks.
Well you must be one of those people that “falls for it every time” and supports the plantation owners. (Plantation owners that pay damn well btw). You’re on a pretty niche baseball site which shows you’re deeply involved in the sport. Your post alone makes them money. If the MLB is so bad and run by slave owners why haven’t you voted with your money and stopped supporting? Why are you reading about it and researching team news and trades? Take a stand man!!
Man Fred is the worst!
I’m not on either side. However, I think the players are being ridiculous about that huge of a jump in minimum wage and the CBT amount. I would understand the inflation argument if they were making what average Americans make, but they are making significantly more. And as I have said, the CBT is relevant for a small number of teams that ever come close or surpass it every year. I think MLB is in line with their proposals on both.
Don’t look at just where the owner are in relation to the players demands. Also look at the owners proposal in relation to what the players were getting in the last CBA. All I see are gains for the players.
The revenue of baseball went up 30% over the past 5 years while median player salaries went down more than 20%. Why shouldn’t MLB minimum salary and the CBT threshold go up accordingly?
Yawn
Not news. I imagine many of us already did not expect the season to start on time
I still think it will. A lot can happen in 5 days. Neither side wants to lose games. I think it is a game of chicken that will end by the deadline.
True. A lot can happen in 5 days but a lot more could have happened in the past 80 days, so…
Hey, I’m warming up my arm and working on my sprint speed just in case, ya know?
Took a few swings the other day too. Bringing the ol’ semi-pro form back. Should be good enough to at least cross a picket line should it come to that later on. I even started a PED cycle as insurance… Hope you’ll come watch.
Same here. Pretty sure i could beat Bartolo Colon in a foot race…
Playing out perfectly for the Owners. Just delay and hold strong. There is no reason to bend. You’re winning in court of public opinion and strikes never hurt long term value. Don’t worry about a shortened season. It only plays to your advantage and fans never ever truly leave.
Owners are winning in the court of public opinion? that’s one of the most ludicrous takes in this thread. You keep claiming to not be a troll but the evidence speaks to the contrary…
Nope. It’s still my opinion. Same one I’ve had. I think they’re doing great. I’m not screaming and yelling about the players. Just pro owner. And I’m still right. The are negotiating VERY smart. It’s that simple. Again, not an emotional thing for me. Just intelligent way to win. Back away for your emotion and build your own strategy as an owner. This is what you would do!
again you’re trying to change the argument when called out for trolling and claiming emotionality where none exists. my point was that saying the owners are winning in the court of public opinion is an out of touch, ludicrous statement hence the trolling which you are obviously doing.
Bro I’m not calling people names and posting 50 messages a day. I believe owners are winning. The news is not horrible for them. The season is going to be pushed back and people are not freaking out like in years past. ESPN isn’t running polls about fans saying they’ll never come back. Outside of this dumb site, this negotiation has been so low key. That’s good for them. The players are the ones who lose the most with a lost season. Without massive fan pressure, the owner’s power grows by the day. That’s just true. Because that differs from you doesn’t make me a troll. I’m smart.
“Bro” no one is name calling. I just said you were trolling which again you are. Saying that fan pressure doesn’t exist outside of this “dumb site” (which you post on way more frequently) is anecdotal evidence. Further saying alleged apathy equals winning in the court of public opinion is equally as ludicrous as your previous statements.. If apathy is at play then that’s a bigger problem for owners. Also people who are smart don’t have to advertise it by claiming to be smart.
Lol! Ok. That whole rant was emotional! You don’t need to “quote” things like a passive aggressive teenage girl. You are right, I can’t factually prove how the owners are winning with public opinion. That said I think they are controlling the narrative well. They are pushing dates back and owning the messaging. The players seems to be on the defensive and not leading anything. That’s good for the owners. Let’s do this….don’t change your name on here and we’ll figure out who won in the end. I’ll admit if I’m wrong, but I negotiate for a living and personally I love the way they’re playing it. And for the record I’m smart. Sorry, I’m well read and smart. My wife is hot too. Can I say that? (Now that was Trolly)
so using quotes is passive aggressive and teenage girly I did that for humor but not surprised that that was lost on you. None what I said was a rant or emotional. that is another tactic to try and diminish my point without actually providing counter points. Again based on your replies I have a hard time believing anything that you are saying but congrats on your allegedly hot wife though although you having a wife or having a significant would be the biggest upset given how when people disagree with you they are being emotional hahahaha… I will give you t credit though for admitting that you actually can’t prove your point.
GOT ME THERE SIR!! Tried to throw you an olive branch and end it, but I see you want to keep poking. We’ll see if you’re right in the end. I believe you’re on the losing end, but who knows. I look forward to you seeking out my next post and quickly jumping on it with your witty troll spin once again. Somehow liking the owner’s strategy is trolling…who knew! Take care big guy.
I can’t believe I have to explain this to someone as learned as you but taking the owners side isn’t the part where you are trolling. It’s where you make unsubstantiated claims or just make crap up to support your argument for supporting the owners that is trolling.
By all means support the owners. Like I said before I don’t have a problem with the owners making money. I believe the players deserve a bigger piece of the revenue then what is being offered or has been offered in the past. If the owners really aren’t making as much and want to take a bigger percentage and hold down players earnings they should open their books to justify that,. They haven’t and won’t because they know they’d be totally exposed. Any justification for the owners that you or others want to use to support them won’t be substantiated unless they open their books.
You’re just silly! You want a bunch of polls and research done on all opinions here? I don’t see anything that says fans are mad at owners. I think that’s a good sign. And no I don’t think apathy is bad. People are not as wrapped up in this as in years past. That’s great for owners. Players need fans to get emotionally invested and pressure the hell out of teams. They need owners to be rich billionaire greedy bad guys. I don’t believe we’re seeing that. I’m reading sites and watching sports news channels and it’s kinda low key. We just came out of two years of expecting things to be cancelled. Players need us to be livid at losing games and we’re like “we just had a 60 game season, 100 sounds good”! People also know these things always get worked out. They yawn at it. This is not playing out in the players favor friend. Sorry that’s an opinion, but I think I’m right. All the dummies saying they’re cancelling their tickets are kidding themselves. That research I know. Strikes NEVER EVER hurt owners long term. Ticket sales, tv revenue, team values, etc ALWAYS go up. They can wait and they know it. You’re mad because this doesn’t help the player. I get it. Sorry bout that.
Did you type out you’re just silly? you’ve really gone off the rails with this rant hahahahaha. For someone who claims to eschew emotionality you are certainly are acting very emotional in all of your responses even when you falsely try to ascribe emotions to others. Also you don’t have to apologize for your opinions even if it’s poorly informed such as yours.
Every response is the same! No well crafted opinions of your own. I’m bored. The only thing that keeps me responding is to see the amount of “0” thumbs up you continue to get. Oh one last debate I’m having….you were born between 1980 and 1990 huh? Your vocabulary isn’t bad so I might be off, but your lack of succinct opinions or cognitive thought, your hatred of capital letters and the multiple uses of “hahahaha” gives me Millennial vibes. I’m feeling like I’m in the comment section of a TikTok instead of an intelligent exchange of thoughts from someone who knows about business. Can you please confirm that before we walk away?
Get max scherzer out of the negotiations for the players ! The highest paid player in the sport doesn’t need to be a representative for the players making the minimum.
Wouldn’t he know more than any other player about securing maximum money? He’s exactly the guy you want leading the charge.
Max Scherer is the owners proof that every player has the opportunity to get paid without changing the system further. If I was a player, he most definitely would not be someone I’d want in the room while demanding higher pay. Its like driving your Rolls to the used car lot while trying to talk the dealer into a better price.
Which is EXACTY why the other players voted for him to be in that position. He is knowledgeable, well spoken, has enough time in MLB to understand the issues at stake clearly, and is extremely intelligent.
Boros got him there , the players don’t want to cross Boros
He’s about as pro-Union as you’ll find. He’s willing to sacrifice his entire 2022 salary.
Does Max become a free agent if there is no 2022 season? Or does he get his 130 million whenever they decide to play baseball again?
Unless the players strike, he gets his full contract. Its a guaranteed deal.
You should use Google before demonstrating you don’t understand the implications. Check this link. Players don’t get paid for lost games or get service time unless the owners were to agree.
abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/mlb-lockout-cost-s…
Only if they lift lockout and play games , 232,000 per game
Hope they don’t play and lose everything, they deserve it
Seems like MLB is still more interested in threatening the MLBPA than making serious offers.
Ya know, in this day where everything is uncertain, it’s nice to see that both sides are committed to something, right?
It seems like there are some fundamental differences that are akin to who owns the holy land. The players demands for 80% Super 2 seem very steep. The owners supposedly agreed to the NL DH, that alone is a huge concession. And the players want a 115m bonus pool to be distributed to the younger players, based on WAR, and I think this is the part they have gone the furthest off course. MLB has never retroactively paid performance-based contracts (other than clauses for reaching certain predetermined milestones) and it seems like a slippery slope the players are willing to go down even requesting it. I hope I’m wrong and they come to a quick agreement, but this is shaping up to be an epic disaster. I think the players concerns about younger players getting paid significantly more are overall way too demanding. Yes, the owners are able to exploit younger players for great value, but at the end of the day, the ones who are deserving all get paid. The only guys leaving MLB as “poor men” are guys who just couldn’t hack it. They get paid the league minimum (which the owners are willing to adjust to inflation level) for a year, maybe two or three, toil in the minors or independent ball for a couple more seasons, and then exit baseball and have to enter the workforce as a non-athlete. Everyone else who plays this game for more than a few years is leaving the game a multi-millionaire with more money than they’ll ever know what to do with. The players are being short-sighted, and remarkably selfless in fighting for the little guy, but they need to step back, have gratitude for how good they’ve got it, and realize that games missed are games they will never have back in their careers.
I’d be interested in seeing a Venn Diagram of the people supporting the owners compared to those who are cheering for Putin.
A perfect circle?
I like to think that (with a few very loud exceptions) for the most part it’s less “supporting the owners” and more “understanding the owners have the significantly better bargaining position, so going their way gets a deal done faster.” There’s certainly plenty of people who don’t really support either side and just want this over.
Pretty close.
Wtf !!
Ha ha ha. Extremism is so bad. People who are convinced they are the solution, when they are in fact the problem.
You might want to consider the wisdom of constantly throwing humans into tiny little buckets.
Curious to know if the avg team risks losing money due to missing games. Say there’s a specific point where if they have a season, then certain amount of games need to be played to help with revenue to make a profit or break even this season.
Games missed means missing out on money. But they will make up for any loses in future years.
MLB will lose a cumulative $67 million per day on average in revenue during the regular season if games are not played. The owners would have to open their books to know the answer to your question for every team.
Bring in the minor league players
This is on average for all teams over the whole season, but the per-day hauls tend to increase as the season goes on for teams in contention. Many clubs don’t break even in April due to weather etc.
After ’94 strike I took my money elsewhere for 5 years. Will be same this time. Unfortunately we can’t act in unison and send a message their empty apologies that come out once they settle is not enough. Sad because it is my favorite sport but tired of these guys sticking the knife in the fans’ backs.
LOL someone else will sit in your seat — if you really go to games!
Doubt it. More fans not posting won’t show up. Someone will have to pay for escalating costs. Glad you are willing to take my seat(s).
They certainly didn’t miss you in the mid and late 90s.
And won’t miss me now. Count the empty seats at Pittsburgh, Tampa, KC, and other small markets when it settles. Or take a course in Econ 101.
Tampa plays in a terrible location so not much will change there. Not sure how well KC did with their rebuild. Pittsburgh I know well and they should be switching from rebuild to contending and their attendance will increase drastically.
Nutting is the problem. He has always refused to spend money, even though they have a beautiful stadium and great fans.
Cherington will probably help them out, but Nutting’s going to demand they trade every good player once they’re up for free agency. I kind of want to cut his nuttings off for being such a ****. Life’s not all about money.
I never seen him refuse to spend money. Any examples or do you just want him to waste money in years when they have no chance of contending?
In 2019 the Pirates had about $285 million in revenue. They could afford to spend $140-145 million on MLB payroll and still make a healthy profit. How much did they spend? In 2021 they had revenue of closer to $300 million. They could afford to spend closer to $150 million on player salaries and still be in the black. How much did they spend? Nutting has been spending less on MLB payroll than his team receives in revenue sharing money from the to revenue teams. He is exhibit one in why the players are asking for a change in revenue sharing to force teams to spend the revenue sharing money they get on players not more profits.
Missing games hurts rookies the most: They didn’t make $570,500 last year!
That’s $3,500 per game if they were on the roster every game.
Max Scherzer will lose $267,489.70 per game but he made $34,503,480 last year, not the $15,000 AAA average pay.
If last year’s 1st year players could vote SECRET BALLOT about accepting $660,000 this year, how would they vote?
Well, probably no, but no one ever said baseball players were smart: what they can do is hit or throw a major league fastball – they are not paid to think!
I don’t understand the hard line the union is taking on not agreeing to expanded playoffs if regular season games are missed. Are they determined to sit the whole season? The players are asking for a lot of new things and the owners are really only gaining one thing from this new CBA, the expanded playoffs – so if that gets taken off the table, what reason do they have to give the players anything?
You nailed that! Best thought ever!
Because that’s the largest single money-maker for the owners. That’s a huge guaranteed profit. To your very last point, that’s the owners’ response – “Do it and you won’t get a thing.”
Finger wagging and posturing on both sides instead of reasonable, level-headed solutions. Both sides should understand the gravy train they truly have if they work to come to an amenable solution.
They aren’t. MLBPA agreed to expanding playoffs to 12 teams with a 3 game WC series. The owners have really not given anything yet, without proposing something else that takes more money away.
That is a lie
Who cares about the extra playoff teams that the Owners want?
Only the players who squeeze into their teams’ extra berth and their fans and the Owners who will sell those games to the Networks and fans who attend.
If the MLBPA says no, who are they hurting?
Players who they represent and fans.
IDIOTS,IDIOTS, IDIOTS. If they can’t agree by Monday, they should bag the whole year, they might learn something by that, but I doubt it.
No, the 2020 60-game season was bad but better than not playing.
I’m about to quit baseball altogether. It’s been my passion since I was a kid (like anyone still here) I’m only 53 and both sides make me sick. This is pathetic, and heart breaking. Just cancel the season. Hope to never see Manfred and Clark again. Pathetic. Really pathetic. GET A GRIP MORONS!
Whatever happens to finally get a deal hammered out, I bet ticket prices go up to help ease the burden of owners losing revenue due to missed games, higher salaries (they never seem to have a problem handing out the next “new” market setting deal..) and agreeing to players who make more than $4 million per year a minimum of 44 built in “load management” games off (12 for starting pitchers) per season…which will increase to 186 games per year because how can we possibly determine who deserves a playoff berth after a measly 162?
Calm down everyone, I’m not serious.
I didn’t care what side got what money but now I am 100 percent with the owners. They were so nice not charging as much as people were willing to pay all these years.
When games start being missed all the posturing for public opinion (by both sides) is going to get a lot harder. Wherever your sympathies lie, it’s going to become more about not getting to watch baseball and less about who you think is right. Hopefully that change in perception will light a larger fire under their collective bottoms.
Whatever… I can’t afford to take my grandkids to a game anyway. I don’t know enough to support or condemn either owners or players. This is the way business works. I’m not in the loop. Owners won’t and should not be forced to open their books IF (BIG IF) they are totally free of publicly subsidized money. If they do accept ANY public/taxpayer funds the books should be TOTALLY open for all to review in full…NOW. I don’t look for the government to intervene, but Baseball’s Antitrust Exemption needs to be ended immediately. MLB is welcome to play with their OWN money… not taxpayer funds. Kill your goose all you want.
Yes! There should be absolutely no government protection for the MLB. Let another league come in and be better. And when they get corrupt, let somebody take them over. That’s how capitalism works. All these pro-business people defending the owners ignore that.
F**** the MLB and F**** the MLBPA
I better start stretching…I gotta chance to be a replacement player.
If Paul O’Neill’s number retirement ceremony is canceled, which side pays for the busted water cooler?
Kramer.
Ukraine under attack from communist Russia.
Communist China getting ready to invade Taiwan?
Iran getting closer to having nuclear weapons.
Covid-19.
Crime and inflation at an all time high in the U.S.!
Real possibility of W.W. III
Recession or worse for the U.S.
I can’t reiterate enough how fed up I am with multi millionaire spoiled athletes complaining that they want more. They need more. They deserve more.
To HELL with them!!!
the owners locked them out, the players didnt strike
Russia has been a capitalist oligarchy since the 90’s. Communism isn’t your bogey man. This is right wing nationalist imperialism.
I quit watching all other pro sports other than baseball. They just aren’t all that enjoyable anymore. I’m quickly reaching that point with baseball now. Never thought I’d feel that way but I guess with all the other misery in this modern world, listening to these morons argue over their millions kind of turns me off.
Appears todays the day or goodbye season!!!?????
In all honesty.. Who gives a flying F about this crap? They’re all millionaires and billionaires, stop arguing over pocket change and start the season now. I honestly can’t stand the commissioner, in my 38 years of being a fan, he’s the worst thing that ever happened to baseball (he’s worst than the 94 strike) he needs to be fired and never allowed back into baseball ever again. Fans argue over Bonds being in the HOF.. no, you should be arguing about the man that is responsible for ruining baseball. BILLIONAIRES!! Are arguing over nickels and dimes.. cheapskates!
Asholes
Once games actually start being lost, that’s when the fan base should become livid. This all could have been avoided had sides actually started taking this process seriously starting December 1, rather than waiting until late February to begin meeting every day. As for me, I don’t want some pathetic truncated 60 or even 100 game season. I’d rather that they just lose the whole season and collectively cut off their nose to spite their face. At this point, I really don’t care. It is wayyyyy too expensive to go to games as it is. Where I am, for 4 decent tickets, parking, modest concessions, etc., your looking at $500 easy…easy for just one game! So start cancelling games. I dare you. And if you do, will I still pay attention and watch some games on TV? Probably. But I can promise this – I am going to make a conscious effort to spend much much less money on MLB baseball to ensue that my money doesn’t flow into the pockets of these billionaire owners and millionaire players. That I assure you!
With these theatrics, MLB and the PA are making it really easy to avoid buying special content subscriptions (cable, higher tier streaming packages) to be able to access RSNs to watch games. No need to spend $80 per month just to watch my FL teams (from each I’m about five hours away, but I digress). No need to travel to Tampa/St. Pete or Miami to spend $ on parking, tix, concessions and other overhead. Sports are expensive to access, and I can think of better things to do with that money.
Your definition of being hurt is laughable. Of course the super wealthy will have to lose some so that others may live a decent life. By all means, they have more than enough.
Unless the MLBPA starts taking a real interest in MiLB players and advocating for them, I’m largely uninterested in any gains they may attain. I feel the same way about ownership.
Why should the union advocate for nonunion players, they don’t pay the union any dues.
I believe the fans own baseball for without us both owners and players lose. Until we the fans realize that……… well we never will so what’s the since of even talking about it.
This lockout is what Putin wants
Putin wants to own the Reds.
They are still at the table, which is the big thing.
In reality this is the upper 1% battling the lower 1% over a fun distraction for the 99%.
Seriously, just cancel the season so we can all focus on something else.
MLB has not been America’s past time for some time now. I would rather the leagues just close up shop than to ruin the game with silly things like: more than one type of baseball in play during a game, free runners in extra innings, teams along with players applying foreign substances to Bats and balls, +65year old umpires calling games, less minor league teams, etc….shut it down, crap err the game is all crazy. Allow the owners to focus solely on real estate ventures (which is what they want) and making themselves billions. Baseball has jumped the shark a while ago so last one out, turn off the lights
Just suppose they were to hammer out a 1 year agreement. Players could make some gain, owners would not have to capitulate on all demands, lock out would end, training could commence, season back on schedule, fans back in the stands.
530 players or two-thirds of the opening day roster made $700+ or more in 2021. So, roughly 1/3 of the opening day roster were prearb players based on that threshold. .That’s how team budgets are determined and spending is managed. This might be off a bit and of course there are a couple hundred other prearb players that will replace injured players. However, the cost of those injured players remain. If the cost of injury replacements goes up, teams will budget less for the 26-man. The premise that half of the players are prearb is technically true but practically or functionally not how spending is or should be managed.
Many of these hundreds of players see only a handful of games. The appropriate way to budget in these cases is to calculate full time equivalents (FTE). The opening day roster which again is how spending is determined includes approximately 300 pre arb players. The players are demanding an average salary of $835K over the 5 year duration of the CBA which equates to $265K and a 46.5% raise.
A 46% raise would be a bold ask but something I could get behind given how high the AAVs are on many contracts. However, that’s not the only ask for pre arb players. The players are asking for a $115M bonus pool which increases the ask for prearb players which is a combined total of 113%.
Then, let’s not forget they are asking for the number of super-two to increase from 22% to 80%. There were 36 super twos in 2021 so that equates to roughly another 80 players getting arbitration. The average increase is roughly $1M a year so let’s call it another $80M or an additional 46% for a total increase of around of roughly $850M per pre arb player. Of course, the arbitration increase will also be seen in future years so the increase has a multi-year affect. Without the multi-year effect this brings the total ask to an increase of $913K which equates to an increase of 160% .
If you were making $71K and asked for a raise to $284K … How would that negotiation go because that’s equivalent to the player’s demands.
Here is another fun fact. If average household income had gone up as much as players salaries over the past 50 years, average household income would be $1.3m instead of $68K. Any rhetoric about keeping up with inflation is truly absurd. The rest of us have kept up with inflation. Player salaries have outpaced the adjusted rate of inflation by 20X. The average salary would be $200K had they “kept up with inflation”.
seems to me that we are quickly approaching “a pox on both their houses” territory
Approaching? No, many of us are miles beyond that particular border.
Neither side wants to lose games. Neither side wants to make a realistic offer, either. Sure, this makes sense.
In the case of the minimum wage, which is more reasonable:
Owners = 19% over 5 years
Players = 57% over 5 years.
From a personal perspective, do the readers think their salary increases over the next 5 years will be closer to 19% or 57%?
Well, I’ve always been an optimist. 🙂
“Last season, the league minimum was set at $570.5K. As Travis Sawchik of the Score calculated last month, the minimum would need to be set at $650K in 2022”
Dear Mr. Franco,
You just blew away your journalistic integrity.
1-There are no calculations on Mr. Sawchik link. A calculation shows numbers and formulas. It’s an important of the debate to see how folks come up with their offers.
2-But that’s not the important part. The next part is important for America’s survival. Look at the two numbers, and there are only two numbers up there, so it is easy.
Without putting pen to paper, or using your slide rule, just close your eyes and thing “How does the 650 compare to 570 in terms of an increase? There is no way that anyone with any type of education can think that’s the rate of inflation.
I can tell you it is 13.9%, using a calculator. But no one in America should need a calculator to know that the number is > 7%.
Sawchik was referring to inflation not just for one year, but from 2017 to present.
I think one of the issues here is that the players are, to a degree, attempting to make up for ground lost in past CBAs. Both in relation to the minimum salary and the CBT thresholds. I don’t know if that’s a realistic goal.
I said before this whole thing started, that the biggest was Clark getting crushed last time. And everyone knows it. And that, to make sure he isn’t embarrassed again, he will ask for twice as much as he should. And the problem is, he WILL NOT KNOW when to agree. And yes, I know he is not the chief negotiator.
Past that, the minimum wage in 2017 was $535. The union ask for 2022 is $650. The ask is 21.5%. Actual inflation is ~ 12.5% (assuming 2021 was 7%). So the union is asking for almost twice the rate of inflation. If Mr. Franco wants to editorialize, please ask him to include that.
And, FWIW, the only side I root for is Joe Brady: I want BB to start on time. And I side with the players on higher minimum wage. I side with the players on the number of times a player can be optioned in one season before getting a full year service time. And I side with the players (to some degree) on service time manipulation.
But I think their stance on revenue sharing, a draft lottery, and to a lesser degree, draft compensation is not just wrong, but will work against the players best interests.
What we need here is less simply rooting for one side or another, and more rooting on the issues.
Once again, neither side gives a cr@p about the fans or all the people that depend on the game to make a living.
These people have no idea how to negotiate.
‘Let’s come down/up $5M, leaving an $80M gap, that’ll get them to sign’
No?
Tomorrow do another $5M, that’ll get them to sign
Everyone who wants baseball needs to remember that the owners are the ones who created the lockout. They can just as easily lift it. Why aren’t they? Because they want higher profit margins. Why won’t they open their books? Because the world will see just how flush in money they are – believe me if they were losing money everyone would know, no one would want to buy a team and there would be constant talk about it. We see enough crooked ultra-rich people who get away with anything, from owners, to Elon Musk wanting historic bridges dismantled so he can get his poor yacht out, and in Congress and the executive branch of the US government.
I don’t sympathize with the players who land in the top 1-2% of incomes as well with these minimum salaries, much less the highly compensated ones. But I am a bit less disgusted with them as I am with the billionaire owners. After all, people pay to watch them play, not watch a bunch of rich guys cheat the system and avoid paying taxes.
Fans need to shut off the revenue stream. Don’t pay to stream. Don’t go to games. Certainly don’t but $12 beer. Don’t buy merchandise.
Cancel the whole season. Who cares. Millionaires and billionaires argue over BS while middle class pays you’re salary. Shut the whole league down indefinitely…
These clowns on both sides are so disconnected from reality.
That seems a little much. I’m tired of them, too, but I still love, and always will love, the game. Now, there will definitely be some blowback from fans who walk away from MLB for a few years or even life. Decreased revenues, which will be exacerbated with each month of delays, will be difficult to recapture. Last time, it took a steroid-fueled HR chase to bring baseball back. Don’t know what it’ll take this time.
This from Ken Rosenthal sums things up nicely: “The proposals creeping back and forth are proposals that could have been exchanged in November. But the owners’ strategy from the start was to squeeze the union until regular-season games were in jeopardy, all the while recoiling in disgust when the player-serfs rejected their crumbs and refused to view them as benevolent despots.”
The two sides really aren’t as far apart as they seem by the rhetoric. It’s all posturing to try and create pressure, but each side knows what the other is doing. That’s why the dollar changes are minimal. Threatening to cancel games is the owners’ card. Threatening to not expand the postseason is the players’ card. Both threats are empty and subject to final negotiation.
You can be pro player. You can be pro owner. (All five of you.) It doesn’t matter. This is a negotiation involving hundreds of millions so this isn’t unexpected. The owners have to give something of value to the players, and the players have to recognize they’re not getting everything back they negotiated away in the last few CBA’s. A reasonable view on both sides will lead to a reasonable deal. Can they get there?
His a puppet for Boros
When are we that fans going to give a deadline? This sport is nothing without the fans, we are in control of this. I personally will not spend any money on MLB if they start canceling games. Time for everyone to step it up, not only to end this mess but to let them know there will be consequences if they do this again in the future.
I’m boycotting each and every canceled game. I won’t attend canceled games in person and I won’t even watch them on TV. They’re not getting me back until they agree to start playing again.
Lock the players out. Sit on your hands and don’t negotiate in good faith. make the players sweat loss of pay with threat of cancelling the start of the season. Convince the fans that player greed is behind their selfish motives. Pocket the profit when players capitulate.
Did you get a copy of an internal memo? Cuz, yeah, that’s the plan.
Always was.
The owners won’t even begin to realize the players are serious until a month that begins with J.
One thing we can all agree on, I believe, is we all want baseball.. Please, both sides make concessions and bring this fabulous game back!
Hear, hear!
Sat around all offseason and now this!! The fans are the only ones who suffer and they couldn’t care less!! Now that their back is against the wall in terms of a full season, they should just find the middle point and BOOM! They have an accord.
Two words, with everything going on in the world, send a message. FAN BOYCOTT
The two sides are battling about the margins when they will lose EXPONENTIALLY MORE MONEY if they indeed lose games.
Figure it out – Flush any PR plans down the drain this season and start over. These “threats” are doing plenty of damage.
I’m curious,, a writer said most fans were interested in expanded playoff. To me this dilutes the regular season and. It makes the regular season a qualifying round for the regular season, which will become the long playoffs. I believe the owners want this because every game played is more money. I personally haven’t talked to a single fan that wants expanded playoffs. Let’s see some comments, it may just be the crowd I’m around:)
I would not put much stock in what most sports writers say, especially when it comes to fan opinions as they generally never actually interact with the fans.
Expanded playoffs would be fantastic. More teams having a legitimate shot at the post-season is better for the sport. For one thing, it would be an incentive not to tank. As a baseball fan and football hater, I can’t stand it when attention shifts to football in August because the local MLB team is hopelessly out of contention.
For the record, I favored the expanded playoffs in 2020, even though my team was considered one of the favorites to win the World Series. The overall well-being of the sport is more important than the goals of one franchise. I would love to see a 14-team format where the top team in each league gets a buy while everyone else plays a best-of-three in the home park of the higher-seeded squad. The fan interest would be tremendous; wall-to-wall baseball for four days, similar to the first round of the NCAA basketball tournament.
If you want 14 teams in playoffs then a 162 game regular season is unnecessary. Start season in mid to late April and conclude world series by end of September.
Next discussion, salaries should reflect shortened season.
I am not interested in expanded playoffs. I root for a couple teams and tend to only watch those teams during the season and playoffs. I do not want to see losing teams in the playoffs. Let the better teams play each other and the rest watch from home.
I’m not interested in expanded playoffs. The thought of .500/sub .500 teams fighting for playoff spots is one of the reasons why the NBA playoffs are generally so predictable. Expanding playoffs doesn’t deter tanking as treading water will be good enough to sneak into a bottom seed. 162 games and then another month and a half of playoffs seems like overkill.
I’m more for expansion and realignment to four 4 team divisions with a balanced schedule and no more wild card. If you can’t compete with three other teams in your division you shouldn’t be in the playoffs anyways
@dave9999 People still watch nba nfl nhl regular season so they will watch mlb. I won’t be one of them. I will catch what I can as background noise. But if you can’t be one of the 14 best teams you aren’t worth watching. I have no interest in 80 some win teams hanging around for the last spot. If they give division winners something of value it could bring value to regular season. But if just 2 teams get a bye then boring. Seeding won’t matter unless that seed gives you a bye. Depends your team. White sox Astros were as certain as you can get to winning division so why watch the regular season. I felt the same about Dodgers but Giants surprised so that was a regular season worth watching for both teams. I like it as is. Unless.
The 3 division winners get a bye and 4 or 5 days off. The 4 plays the 7 and 5 plays 6 one game. Then the two remaining wild cards play a 3 game series. The division gets 7 games instead of 5. More teams. More games. You definitely want to win your division.
I read that as “the regular season will be canceled if there’s no CBA in place by Feb. 28th
Maybe it’s time for all the avaricious millionaires on both sides of the bargaining table to “man up” and “let the kids play!”
The owners have made your suggestion impossible by locking the players out.
That guy strikes me as thinking “I get paid whether there is a season or not, either way, I don’t care”
Nobody reads posts that are more than three lines long. It’s not the great American novel. Get to the point in as few words as possible.
The belligerent pride that people take in their limited mental faculties these days…
Do the rest of you remember the games as I do? As a kid playing on a dirt-covered field, I couldn’t wait to hit. I’d actually jog up to the plate from the on-deck circle, dig in, and wait expectantly for the first pitch, which in my mind I was sure to hammer. And when our inning was over, my teammates and I would run into the field to take up our positions. Their was no primping by prima donnas, no posturing for the crowd, no unrestrained egos jostling for primacy. We had fun. We laughed and shrieked, jumped and ran, and though we didn’t know it then, we were living in real time what has since become but a dream. Baseball.
Please enough is enough just cancel the season PLEASE.I will just follow WWIII that just started and watched Biden blame everything on the WAR.
Send all the MLB Players and Owners to Ukrainia they will figure it out then.What a bunch of JO’s
Screw all these billionaires and millionaires. Society doesn’t need them anymore. Young fans are not gravitating to the sport. This lockout certainly will not help it grow. Many complain about the pace of play, the lack of excitement. I just complain about the greed. I hope both sides choke on it. Most people have to work to make a ‘living’. During this pandemic with so many struggling, where is there focus? Each side trying to obtain as much of our money as possible. Why should we care about a sport that doesn’t care about us? Real question.