June 13: John Angelos released a statement this morning that wholly rejects the notion of ever relocating the Orioles and pushes back against many of the allegations levied by his brother (Twitter link):
“…My mother was born and raised in northeast Baltimore, attended city public schools at Eastern High School, and has worked with my father their entire lives to help the city, including by restoring the club to local ownership and preventing its relocation. For them, as for me, the Orioles will forever play at Oriole Park, and at no time ever have we contemplated anything different.
Since I was appointed Chairman and CEO according to my parents’ expressed wishes, and voted as the control person for the team by the 30 Major League Clubs, I have taken significant steps to ensure that our beloved franchise’s future remains in Charm City. Just two months ago we celebrated the Maryland General Assembly passing a bill promising to put $1.2 billion into reinvesting and reimagining the Camden Yards Sports Complex, which includes Oriole Park, ensuring the team will continue to play right here in downtown Baltimore for generations to come. Maryland is committed to keeping our team in this great state, and I am equally committed to keeping the Orioles at the heart of our state. …
I want to assure our Orioles players and coaches, our dedicated front office Senior Leadership Team and staff, and our devoted fans, trusted partners, elected, civic, and non-profit leaders, and our entire community, that the Orioles will never leave.”
June 12: The hands at the levers of the Baltimore Orioles are fighting each other, according to a report from Tim Prudente and Justin Fenton of The Baltimore Banner. The piece provides details of a lawsuit wherein Louis Angelos is suing his brother John Angelos. Both men are the sons of 92-year-old Peter Angelos, who was the principal investor of a group that purchased the franchise in 1993. The lawsuit from Louis alleges that Peter intended for his two sons and Georgia, wife of Peter and mother of John and Louis, to share control of the team, but that John has since taken steps to seize control of the club against his father’s wishes.
According to the lawsuit, Peter collapsed in 2017 due to the failure of his aortic valve. It seems that, in the subsequent years, plans for succession were developed, with Peter establishing a trust with his wife and two sons as co-trustees to manage the family’s assets. Lou Angelos alleges that John has since tried to take over the reins against his brother’s wishes. “John intends to maintain absolute control over the Orioles — to manage, to sell, or, if he chooses, to move to Tennessee (where he has a home and where his wife’s career is headquartered) — without having to answer to anyone,” the complaint states.
Among Lou Angelos’ allegations is that Georgia’s priority is to sell the team, with an advisor trying to put together a sale in 2020. According to the suit, John stepped in and nixed this deal. Lou also accuses John of firing, or demanding that others fire, key front office employees, including Brady Anderson. After his playing days, Anderson served in the Baltimore front office, eventually working his way up to vice president of baseball operations. However, he departed the organization in 2019.
By November 2020, Major League Baseball’s other owners had approved John Angelos to take over as the O’s “control person,” in light of Peter’s declining health. As noted at the end of the piece, this franchise is worth an estimated $1.375 billion, according to Forbes. Prudente and Fenton also point out that, earlier this year, the Maryland State legislature passed an initiative committing $1.2 billion for upgrades to Oriole Park as well as the Ravens’ M&T Bank Stadium, hoping to prevent both franchises from leaving the state. The club’s lease at Camden Yards runs through 2023, and the team has an option to extend the lease by an additional five seasons next February.
Of course, none of Lou Angelos’ allegations have been substantiated in court. It’s possible the litigation winds up being settled or dismissed before ever getting in front of a jury. Nevertheless, it is still noteworthy that one of baseball’s 30 franchises seems to be mired in turmoil at the top level, and there figures to be plenty to follow over the coming months.
The Orioles have not commented on the matter. The piece contains many details not covered here, and interested readers are encouraged to give it a thorough read in order to get the full story.
Couldn’t happen to worse people
There are way worse owners out there.
Maybe you’re right, but between the MASN debacle and the consistent mediocrity, the ownership has not been great.
“Consistent mediocrity” would be a significant step up for the team under the Angelos regime. Since he bought the team almost thirty years ago they’ve had a grand total of seven seasons with a winning record.
His foolish meddling, almost constant cheapness, questionable hiring, ignoring the advice of reputable baseball people, and general dysfunction was the perfect recipe for how to ruin a franchise.
8 seasons. Including 5 of the last 10.
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Where the facts don’t matter and trolls reign supreme
Starting with the 2000 season, John took over day to day operations of the business side of the team and in 2010 he took over baseball operations as well. From 2012 to 2016 the team went on a streak of 5 seasons at or above .500 with 3 playoff appearances. Then Peter got sick and put the team in a trust and it all went to bleep in a handbasket.
MT in Baltimore
Not sure about that right now. Ownership’s lethal combination of ineptitude and arrogance has cast a long shadow over this once-great Franchise.
Guy wants to move the team to Tennessee because that’s where’s from and wife works? What a dbag.
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
Nice to be fighting over last place
It’s a character builder for the rest of the team
That’s one feuding brother’s claim against another. Simply mud-slinging in the court of public opinion.
No logic allowed!
Keep your critical thinking to yourself!
It is not where John is from, but it is where he lives now due to his wife’s career.
That’s what I meant. Still, ridiculous. Move an entire team and the players bc his wife works in Tennessee is ridiculous. I’m sure she can find a job in Baltimore. Tennessee should definitely get a team, just not this way.
Wouldn’t he need to get approval from MLB to move?
Yes he would, but, by MLB you have to know that means the owners, and not once have the owners ever denied another owner approval to move.
MLB has a say here too. A big one. The Orioles aren’t moving to TN because the son of the owners has a wife working there. Reads like lawsuit filler.
Moving out of Baltimore would allow the team its own market, rather than being forced by MLB to share it with the Nationals. Does Baltimore deserve a team? Absolutely! They also deserve their market back, which is not going to happen. Moving to where the TV contract doesn’t have to be shared could be good for the franchise.
Point taken, but years ago they did block the Giants from moving to St. Pete, I, believe. Doubt they would get denied, today, though.
That’s incorrect. Tampa Bay wanted to play half the season in Montreal and bulked at that.
Has stopped moves before. Public is just not openly aware of them.
I’m sure the last thing they want in Nashville is a perennial loser as their “new” franchise.
you are correct, 1992 the Giants were denied permission to move.
Bud Selig denied the A’s move to San Jose as well.
Oh, please. “Their market.”
The St. Louis Browns never would have moved to Baltimore if Washington hadn’t looked the other way.
It’s also unlikely that the allegation is at all true.
The MASN contract mess is b/c of Angelos. He has failed Baltimore in terms of $ spend and quality teams.
Market back? Pls. the O’s had the market and NATS stunk for many years. FYI one AL one NL proven there is plenty of market for both. O’s didn’t develop in over 10 years , stagnated & NATS had owners who moved forward, farm system did it & win a WS! Now they both stink and it’s up to ownership to decide what goes stay/invest or sell!
@mrnot How would Tennessee get a team without relocation of another? I doubt they do an expansion imo
Relax… that’s what his brother claims. Someone could come out and say he touched her inappropriately at a party in high school 25 years ago too. Doesn’t mean it happened.
The Nationals have conquered the region. Nashville would be a great destination.
Ive only been watching baseball 10 or 12 years, but aren’t the O’s 1 of the longer tenured teams in the league? Pretty ridiculous
Edit: yea the O’s were founded in 1901
The Orioles go back to the St. Louis Browns before moving to Baltimore in the early 1950s. They won one WS in St. Louis during war time when teams were short players. Oddly, they often were the more popular team in town.
The Browns lost that World Series to the crosstown Cardinals. They didn’t win it all until they moved to Baltimore and became the Orioles.
Actually the Baltimore Orioles from 1901 moved to NY and became the Highlanders, which in turn became the Yankees shortly thereafter.
The current Orioles franchise began in Milwaukee, and dates from the St. Louis Browns in the AL of 1902.
They didn’t move to NY, actually. That’s a common misconception. NY was a different franchise altogether, purchased by owners in 1903 who were establishing their own team in NY. They purchased the bankrupt & failing O’s from their previous owner in Baltimore.
The Highlanders took the place of Baltimore, essentially, but didn’t move there.
@hiflew, The original Baltimore Orioles were disbanded after the 1902 season, thus making the NY Yankees a separate and unaffiliated franchise. In essence, they were the A.L.’s first expansion team. It’s murky though. Wikipedia has the two as one franchise, but the Yankees, and as far as I can tell MLB, consider the Yankees a separate franchise that didn’t exist prior to 1903. Baseball Reference has also disassociated the connection between the two franchises. What is clear is there was an intention to move the Orioles to NY, but legal reasons and a fight between John McGraw (O’s player-manager) and Ban Johnson (AL President) led instead to the Orioles being dissolved and Johnson’s handpicked owners purchasing the rights to the new AL franchise, the New York Americans (aka the Highlanders, the Hilltoppers, and eventually the Yankees). I’m currently in the camp that they are two separate franchises, but it’s an uneasy camp. The legal records from those years were lost when Yankee Stadium was refurbished in the 1970s. The safe they were in was literally (but accidentally) thrown in the garbage and is probably buried in a landfill somewhere in NY!
@YC, didn’t see your post at first. Consider mine additional flavor to the same thought.
L99: You are correct, sir! Separate franchises completely. The muddy waters stem from the fact the NY owners had to pay the Baltimore owners the rights for a team, in essence. But, NY is a separate franchise, a separate team, & separate owners. The O’s owner also went bankrupt, which caused a major problem for Ban Johnson.
The “purchase” of the O’s was, in effect, a favor to Ban Johnson to resolve two issues in one (the expansion team entry/ dissolution of the O’s & O’s bankruptcy issues).
So, I am very comfortably in the separate franchises camp. The NY franchise is it’s own and, if anything, absorbed the O’s franchise.
Same. I said uneasy because the intent clearly was to move the Orioles, but when that fell apart, Johnson went a different route to get a team into NY. The path they chose meant there was no affiliation.
MT in Baltimore
My guess is that he was told to move the team closer to her music career ambitions.
John DOESN’T want to move the team. The team had offers to sell in 2020 and John nixed the sale because the purchasing group would not commit to staying in Baltimore.
It’s yours!… no, no I insist YOU take it… oh really that’s nice of you but I think you should have it
There could be two truths here. John has decided he wants the team to remain in the family, specifically with him in control, while Lou wants the team sold so he can cash out as he has little interest in being part of the team. If the mother and one of the sons want to sell the team, then John could arrange financing to buy the two out. He likely doesn’t have the resources for that. I would think Angelos the senior would have this all spelled out, although complicating factor is he’s still alive and serves as chairman, at least in name.
Like fighting over 2nd place in a fat idiot contest
I made a joke about the O’s myself but seriously they are losing now but it’s a great organization and they’ll be on top again in the future.
Unfortunately for Orioles’ fans, the main fight is probably over who will spend less on payroll and increase profits for the family.
Chris Davis is being paid $23M this year to get lost in the woods. Maybe it’s better they’re not spending money. I can see Correa getting that payday taking that franchise reign from Chris Davis into the next decade, as most cumbersome contract.
Can’t see them doing that when they let Machado go and now dealing with this which could take years. MLB may force their hands for a sale if it gets really ugly. We’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg now.
Machado was traded because he (or his agent) let the O’s know what he expected to receive in his next contract and the team wasn’t willing to pay it.
On some level, I’m surprised Machado is doing such a great job of living up to that $300M contract. Good for him!
Also, Harper from the same free agent class is also doing a great job of exceeding expectations. Unfortunately, he is one of 3 DHs getting paid around $20M or more per season. What a mess Dombrowski made this offseason.
DD is boom-or-bust and it’s not always going to work out. I think Harper is happy with ownerships efforts, not so much the results.
Dombrowski had a very tough job though, the roster was already very expensive, the pen was bad and the farm system very bad.
Getting all those bat first types wasn’t ideal but for that money (he couldn’t spend another 300 mil on one player but did 180 on two guys) you either get defense or hitting and he went for the hitting hoping to outslug the opponent.
Harper made that worse with his injury so he essentially took away the DH spot.
That always was a risk but really at that point DD had to go unconventional and it always was going to be tough.
In the end the phillies rebuild of klentak failed with bad player development and drafting and the phillies tried to cover that with money which didn’t really work.
Had kingery, franco, crawford, haseley, moniak and other highly touted prospects not failed the situation would look different now but it didn’t work out that way.
J.P Crawford is in Seattle.
Yes but they sold low on him because he wasn’t performing.
In Seattle he got better which probably shows how bad phillies player dev was.
That was a huge mistake, wasn’t it?
I want to watch this movie. Who should we cast?
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
Dumb and Dumber
The Angelos family probably watched Succession on HBO and became inspired
Paul Rudd as John Angelos
Danny de Vito as Peter Angelos
Bradley Cooper as Louis Angelos
Bryn Edelsten as Taryn Angelos
Beverly D’angelo as mom
Rowan Atkinson..as all of them.
The entire organization should cease to exist.
Where would other teams get their future starters? THEIR farm systems? C’mon. Let’s be practical.
They’d all go to Pittsburgh.
I too agree that Baltimore should cease to exist, not for some silly reason like it’s a bad place or bad people, I heard it’s not the safest place to live! But what main city is now adays
I just want NY BOS and TB to stop getting so many damn free wins!!!!!!
Don’t the Blue Jays get those wins for free too?
Sad to admit but not as often as we should
The Jays (used to) play well against teams above 500 then take a vacation against the bottom feeders
It’s pretty much the reason we missed the playoffs last 2 years
Never want to play to your opponent’s record. I believe, and will always acknowledge, that point.
Well typical rich people in fighting
Happened to Joe Robbie and the Dolphins
Hell, he even built the stadium himself without taxpayer money
Where is ‘Special Council’ Smouse when you need him
This family drama pales in comparison to the Bowlen family, the Snyder family, and especially the Spanos famiiy. People just enjoy taking cheap shots at the Orioles because they have nothing else to do with their miserable, pathetic lives.
None of those other families are baseball owners, might I note.
I don’t think it’s necessarily about the Orioles, per se. It’s about the poor way the Angelos family has handled the Orioles over the past decade or so. It just seems like the Orioles have been left to flounder with an ownership that cares. They have an interesting prospect base, but have no shot at competing in that division without overhauling their system or breaking out the wallets.
It’s a shame really. Sitting in Camden Yards, eating a crabcake sandwich or barbeque from Boog’s, and watching a competitive ballgame really is an excellent way to spend an evening,
I agree with everything you said.
C Yards Jeff
@kje Actually the past decade was pretty decent. There was a 5 year stretch in there where the Orioles were the winningest team in the AL including making the playoffs 3x. What happened? Pretty much Oriole nation knew their run had ended. Change of direction was needed, a popular theory was because Mr. Angelos was aging and in poor health, didn’t have time for that. So he tried to keep it going with the core in place. The most glaring example was Machado. Should have been traded a year earlier. And the addition of Cobb was a bust and the Davis deal disastrous. I felt badly for Buck and Dan. Both good baseball people who knew better than to keep things status quo. Had to be painful for them to endure. I know it was painful to watch. All that said, kudos to Mr Angelos for turning things around. He brought in McPhail and then Duquette and Showalter. Nice run.
The 2000s was the brutal decade. In the late 1990s, the O’s were set to dominate. Solid baseball people in charge. GM Gillick, Manager Johnson, Commentator Miller and others. Popular belief here locally, all chased away by Mr. Angelos as he felt confident that under his direction he could reload with new baseball minds and continuing winning. The result. He ran the team in to the ground and attendance plummeted opening the door for a DC team. In a few short years we went from a successful big market team with one of the highest payrolls in the game to a small market team with an occasional big name talent in the line up (Bell and Tajeda come to mind). The kick in the teeth. As fans were in agony, for his handy work, Mr Angelos is rewarded with that MASN deal. Ugly chapter in Orioles history.
Do you have to be both miserable & pathetic or will just one suffice? Being an oriole fan is like getting hit in the head with a bat everyday. Ahahahaha!
C Yards Jeff
@Gothamcityriddler “both miserable & pathetic” Love it! Is there a better definition of the word “fan” which is short for “fanatic”. Don’t think so! Well said. Cheers!
Battling over a turd.
A turd valued at $1.375 billion says the article.
“For the love of money is the root of all evil…” 1 Timothy 6:10
As much as I would like a team here in Nashville, the Os have too much history in Baltimore. Camden is the best stadium I’ve been to for a game.
The Rays, on the other hand, need a new home.
Get in line behind MTL, keeps the division intact that way too
I hear Oakland kinda might maybe perhaps wanna move!!@
Nashville seems a good bet to get a MLB team eventually, either through a relocation (not the O’s) or likely MLB expansion. As noted, in April the Maryland legislature committed $1.2 billion to the Camden Yards Sports complex, which Peter Angelos happily accepted, saying that “the franchise has a bright future, having secured the financial resources needed to reinvest in Oriole Park’s amenities.” It doesn’t mean they won’t relocate, but seems pretty unlikely.
I don’t see them leaving. If they did, MLB would immediately expand back into Baltimore. Maybe that would be best for Baltimore fans! Still have baseball, but maybe better owners.
MLB still won’t expand until the A’s and Rays figure out their stadium situations and possibly relocate themselves
A’s have an agreement in place for a new ballpark that has been approved by all the government agencies. The Rays need to move out of St Pete and into Tampa to succeed in that area.
@outinleftfeild i may not agree with you a lot, but i think your spot on with your assessment of the rays. tampa is passionate of there teams fans still showed up during the dog days of the bucs and the bolt draw very well especially since hockey isn’t that big in the south unlike the north. having going to a rays game i observed many factors that contribute to low attendance. 1 there is no easy way from the tampa side of fl to st. pete (this is coming from a tourist there for work and had some time to catch a game) 2nd the stadium is in an industrial district so there is nothing to do before or after a game, which ties into point one, you can overcome being in a pain to get to area if the area gives you a reason to either come before a game or during/after. 3rd which ties into point 2 there’s no shopping to attract the mrs, of those significant others don’t care about the game but was dragged along. i strongly feel if tb can move to the tampa side of fl and either share the area with the bucs and bolt they will draw a lot more. as it stands right now a working person in tb isn’t going to race home and clean up just to sit in traffic for 2 hours to catch a game then sit in another 2 hrs of traffic to get home and “take a nap” then get up early as f to go work when they can save 4hrs grab a 12 pack and watch the game on tv.
Once signed, that legislation will lock the Orioles into a lease for decades. The largest part of that money is not going for upgrading the ballpark, although a good chunk will. Its mostly for the downtown area and Inner Harbor revitalization. The Orioles will definitely benefit and so will all the businesses in the area,
The Rays will get a new home…In Tampa, FL
Move to Tennessee please! Just leave the Orioles name in Baltimore.
Are you in TN too?
I feel like it’s common sense to move the Rays to Nashville. I really don’t care what any of these teams do as long as it’s not on tax payer dollars (which it will be).
The Braves and Cardinals don’t want a big-league club moving into Nashville. Cuts into TV territories for both ATL and STL.
It’s ridiculous that we are considered part of the Reds and Cardinals media market. It’s almost as ridiculous that we are considered part of the Atlanta media market. I doubt any of them have much of a say about MLB coming to Nashville.
(1) Where exactly are you? Middle and eastern Tennessee are solidly Braves. Western Tennessee is Braves/Cardinals.
(2) An MLB club needs a three-fourths supermajority of club owners to relocate. Currently that means 23 of the 30 clubs must say “yes” — if 8 clubs say “no”, the move is off.
I’m in Nashville. Lots of Braves fans here, but I believe that’s due to the absence of our own home team. That being said, my main motivation to have a team here is to see the Angels come to town.
So that might get 3 no votes. No reason for any other owner to say no to a move to Nashville.
Don’t forget, the Reds claim Nashville as territory too.
Actually they all do have an interest in where any team is located or relocated. Takes 75% approval. Also impacts are realignment, etc.
The Rays are an AL team. The others are all NL. I think it may make a difference.
Ask the Astros and Brewers if being in one league or the other made a difference when franchises move or especially when new ones appear (because of the entry fees)
The big reason to nix a move for any owner is $$$. Most dollars in MLB come from TV and Nashville is a MUCH smaller market than Tampa or the Bay Area. A move would mean lower revenue from the national TV deals. More likely that Nashville, Charlotte, Montreal, or possibly Portland get an expansion team.
Deja vous after reading yesterday about the Chargers
Let’s not miss the biggest reveal here, which is this perennial losing team is estimated to be worth $1.375B, and the state has committed big bux toward keeping the team from moving somewhere else, where they could be just as lousy year after year. Is anybody still weeping tears into their $16 beers for team owners?
That’s what stood out to me too. Lousy for years with that high a number and they get a free 1.3 bil split (or something of that nature) with the ravens? The rays can’t get anyone behind anything in the legislature (not that thats really comparable but just an example) and Maryland is giving out free money to “hopefully” keep the teams? Something tells me they will extend the leases and then ask for another complementary handout or else they’re out of there. Why would a city do that without the immediate threat of leaving(which I may of missed from both teams, to be fair)?
C Yards Jeff
Yep. The 1.2 billion for stadium area improvements will benefit the Orioles and Ravens, but just as likely maybe us citizens/taxpayers too? I’m thinking the state’s intentions to modernize each facility includes redesigns to be able to attract other clients. Like the 2026 World Cup, the Olympics, a professional cricket franchise and the like. By the way, has this project already started? My gut says the O’s in no way wanted the left field fence moved back as far as it was. Was this the Authority’s first strike in converting C Yards in to a multi use facility?
The 2026 WC is a possibility (we’ll know this week). The Olympics seems a stretch – other than maybe an early soccer game for the LA 28 Games, any potential Baltimore Olympics wouldn’t be in play until the 2040s at the least. Does cricket really fit well in a baseball or football stadium? Cricket fields are usually much more rounder.
C Yards Jeff
@kje7 Yes, cricket fields are unique. This new professional league is the real deal. Any city bidding to be a part of it, including Baltimore, would need to have a cricket field/stadium. A municipality is not going to invest in a stadium unless a potential owner gets awarded a franchise and wants it there. Right? So for a couple of seasons, until a permanent stadium is built, there will be temporary “digs”. Yes? The comfy old charm confines of Camden Yards could meet that league requirement. So where to build a cricket stadium in Bmore? Well, that space between the 2 stadiums that is being used for parking is not meant to be used for parking. Can ya fit a cricket field in there? 1.2 bilion is a lot of cash. One catch to this, to draw attendees, I’m thinking DC can not also have a team.
The incentive governments have for keeping these franchises within their jurisdictions is a function of the monopoly the sports have over the number of teams and their locations. The fact that failed baseball teams can be worth as much as they are is a function of the same thing, plus the fact that MLB rewards failure with profits.
Maryland is not giving FREE money to the team, they are revitalizing the Inner Harbor and downtown area in an effort to increase business in the area. The ballpark is in that area and keeping the team there is vital to the other businesses in the area. Most of that money they have earmarked is for that revitalization effort and some of it is to upgrade a 30 year old ballpark. We didn’t even have internet when Camden Yards was built which is an amenity that most of us take for granted. That is just one example of infrastructure upgrades that Camden Yards needs.
One thing John has done is made the fan experience less expensive in Camden Yards. The price is among the lowest in baseball.
C Yards Jeff
@outinleftfield I’m digging all your shares on this thread. Keep’em coming! In regards to the states intention to revitalize the area not just the 2 stadiums, I agree. In particular, I’m curious about what’s going to happen to the most under utilized property in that part of the city: the convention center. It’s my understanding that the Stadium Authority has some say in it’s relevance.
The beer is still $15.50 for a 24oz……
The ticket is cheap because there’s no real demand for it. Don’t know that John has anything to do with that. The 1992 pricing or whatever it was for the first month of the season was nice. But really more of a way to put an ass in the seat to pay for that beer.
Ahh…like when you find the last piece of a puzzle and the whole thing makes sense.
Veterans die in dirty hospitals and teachers have to buy their own school supplies but people who have never worked a day in their life can have free pro sports teams handed to them tax free.
And the well conditioned line up to lick their boots…
C Yards Jeff
John’s doing a hellava job. He’s letting the baseball people in the organization make the baseball decisions. The first example of this, I believe, was when they cut ties with Brady Anderson. Good guy but not part of the new regime’s vision. Had to go! Plus by 11/2020 the other MLB owners saw it too and endorsed John as controlling owner of the franchise. Why not Lou? One caveat. If they can’t get along, sell it to someone local.
“Brady Bunch” Anderson was a fan favorite as an outfielder/DH in Baltimore. Not his fault that he got purged from the front office when the O’s went bad.
C Yards Jeff
@ChuckyNJ I feel ya! “Not his fault” indeed. Nor was it Buck’s, or Dan’s or the other baseball minds in the organization. My gut says if Mr Angelos was 20 years younger and not in failing health, Brady, Buck, Dan would still be there and in the middle of their own little rebuild. Heck, we were the winningest team in the mid 2010s. Mr. Angelos, very old and in failing health, didn’t have time for a rebuild so he held on too long gambling that adding and subtracting parts would get us back to the mid 2010s. And yes, Brady was good but he was no Steve Finley. The Os knew it, the fans knew it and unfortunately, so did the Houston Astros.
Favorite as a player, yes. Not an effective baseball executive. Too many of the poor Orioles decisions were part of his legacy. It was a positive move to cut bait and he depart.
The Barksdale Corporation
Julio Franco's Birth Certificate
Let these scummy people fight forever. Dictionary definition of slime.
Move the team to New York and name it The Highlanders.
I actually own a Highlanders hat. Brooklyn can support another team.
MLB research that’s atleast a decade old said that the #1 viable market was a 3rd team in NY. Followed by a 3rd team in SoCal, and then Montreal.
A third team in New York would make sense. I think SoCal has enough teams. Montreal might seem like a nice for nostalgic purposes, however, I don’t think the market is big enough to sustain a team.
The market probably is big enough, in and of itself, I just don’t think the baseball fan base may be big enough to sustain a team. It’s more nuanced than that, as to why baseball failed in Montreal, though.
I believe Montreal is a market of 6 million, and it’s also the key to the European market which MLB covets. From what I’ve read. It’s hard to tell. It’s been a generation now since they had baseball, and that was after MLb spent a good decade trying to dismantle the Expos viability. Olympic Stadium was no selling point either.
Montreal is a viable option. Tampa believes so, and has already tried to press that button.
Sincerely, there’s just not many markets left that are any better than what we’re in now. They all pose market size questions. Nashville. We’ll get expansion simply because of the liquidization the fees give the league.
Montreal metro area is about 4.2 million in population and would rank just behind Phoenix in TV homes at 2.07 million. 13th in DMA rankings for MLB cities if they included Canadian cities. Toronto at 6.2 million in population and 3.25 million TV homes would be 4th behind Chicago and just ahead of Philly.
the only thing i have against bb in mtl is that you need the right ownership group invested in making mtl a winner. just as the expos we’re getting good the strike happened and the team was sold off so for years other than seeing vlad sr. there was no reason to support the team. i’m not saying bb can’t work in mtl the opposite but they would need an ownership group dedicated to winning and keeping a winning team or at least a product worth seeing with the hope of success or it going to be the expos v2.0
Have to consider other things with Montreal than just Metro. Europe…rest of Canada.
MLB essentially owned the Expos and ran a solid organization into the ground.
And this is why you don’t allow oligarchs to control MLB teams. Just like the Packers, teams should be owned by fans/cities/areas and a GM and other officers hired to do the running of the team like now. We cut out a few criminals with crazy, immoral family members who are destroying teams for their own benefit. No more using tax cash to build stadiums and other infrastructure that benefits a handful of oligarchs. If we the people pay for stadiums and all the other development than we the people OWN the teams we already pay for! No more socialism for the rich!!
Well with the way our local gov’ts are run, I’ll take the Lorias, McCourts, Angelos’, etc. anyday. At least they can make quick decisions along with 29 other entities instead of stonewalling.
No more taking tax payer money to pay for private enterprise that shows little actual public financial impact according to studies. But then make them public and essentially do the same thing?
I love the Packers model. It’s actually not legal even in the NFL any longer.
Most ownership groups are owned by many partners. Those minority partners usually attempt to hold the managing partner accountable. That’s been an ongoing issue in Pittsburgh.
Please… when you use the term socialism, understand it’s meaning and use it correctly. Publicly owned teams by the Packers are an anomaly and will not occur again. Nor is ownership by an insurance company of the Atlanta Braves a positive situation.
Must be fighting over who doesn’t have to own them.
Actually a move to Nashville would be better for the Oriole franchise. Baltimore is a ran down city like Detroit who is most popular for its crime (other than the Ravens). No way are they ever going to get complete control of that market with the Nationals there, and its not big enough to share like New York, Chicago, or LA. A lot of tech jobs have moved to Nashville in recent years, its like the silicon Valley of the South.
Kingbum– Major league teams draw from areas outside the urban core. Your thoughts would move a LOT of teams, including the Yankees.
Nashville is a good place. I’m not sure the market is better. You have the Braves/Reds/Cardinals reaching in with some long standing generational ties to the region.
Nashville is expansion.
Correct, Nashville will be an expansion city, not a city that receives a team relocating from anyone else. Other owners are not going to approve a team moving there. They will expect and receive a huge cut of the expansion team buy-in ante. No current owner is going to accept expansion without a cut of the buy-in.
Have you ever been to Baltimore, kingbum?
As for your opinion that the Nats have taken control of part of the market, I’d argue that may be temporary. The Nationals have been pretty good during a period where the O’s have been bad, so of course that’d make Washington the hotter ticket. The O’s have some exciting young players though, and the Nats are entering into a down period. If Washington can’t keep Soto, the roles could reverse quickly.
There is zero reason to move the O’s.
Anyone wishing to move the Orioles from Camden Yards, and Baltimore, needs to dig a hole and climb in.
Ed "The Mythical One"
From a business only perspective, Baltimore is a terrible place for a baseball team.
Incredibly small market, now divided even more since the Nationals moved in.
Terrible team network left in shambles due to the ongoing legal battle.
The city is a dumpster fire outside of the park/harbor area. Crime ridden.
It would make sense to move into a larger, untapped market.
There are worse markets. The team hasn’t really been run very well. The O’s were once the class organization in MLB. MLB shouldn’t have approved John but it was likely the best option of many poor ones.
St. Louis has the highest crime rate of any large U.S. city. In 2019, they were second only to the Dodgers in total and average attendance. The franchise is well-run and usually contending, and the fans show up.
St. Louis draws from an entire region. That’s my exact point when people mention urban landscape. It s not much different than moving the Yankees out of the Bronx. Detroit would be another. White Sox
C Yards Jeff
@”Ed the Mythical One” I think this proves there is/was a rebuild going on here. Starting with Brady, Buck, Dan and others getting their walking papers. And gutting the team outside of the Davis deal. O’s are not the first team to do this. How successful a rebuild is too early to tell. Looks like Elias and staff had an initial 5 year plan in place that got side tracked for close to 2 years because of Covid. The revelation that the brothers are at odds casts a dark shadow over it. And I agree with your small market thread. Nationals and Orioles sharing one market is sketchy. But disagree with your take on Baltimore. It is NOT a terrible place to live or visit. My driving job has me in and out of all areas of Baltimore, DC, Philly and NYC. They all look the same. Some good areas, some bad. Gotta keep your head on a swivel in each. Cheers!
C Yards Jeff
I both agree and disagree with your statement. Yes, you have to keep your head on a swivel in Baltimore, DC, Philly, and NYC. The difference with Baltimore (and DC) is that the city proper areas are low in population. Philly metro is bigger than the Baltimore/DC metro area, and you have 2 teams in the Baltimore/DC metro draw area. Baltimore city proper, when the Orioles were the best franchise in baseball, was in the top 10 of city populations but has plummeted in the 30-40 years since and has become a very poor city.
Investing in the Camden sportsplex makes sense if you want to keep trying to get actual taxpayers from the suburbs to come down and spend money. But more than superficial upgrades must be made to the surrounding areas (Inner Harbor, Pratt Street corridor) as those went downhill after the Freddie Gray incident and exacerbated by covid. In 1992 you could safely wander Harborplace and Pratt, you can’t anymore.
C Yards Jeff
@Thorton Mellon Thanks for the get back. Yes. Quite the population drop, agreed. I would say this. It’s not a very poor city, it’s very poorly run. And yes, for the 1.2 billion investment to be worthwhile more than superficial upgrades are needed. Personally, seems the needed upgrade is a change in leadership. Will the citizens of Baltimore vote for change? Hmm.
If you include the DC-Hagerstown area and the Baltimore metro, its much larger than Philly. In terms of TV homes you are talking 2,565,580 in DC-Hagerstown plus 1,129,830 in Baltimore vs 2,997,360 in Philadelphia. 3.7 million vs 3.0 million. Its not close. The entire purpose of the $1.2 billion investment is to revitalize the downtown and Inner Harbor area where the ballpark is located. Its not just about the Camden Yards ballpark. Its the entire area including M&T stadium, the home of the Ravens.
Ed "The Mythical One"
I was born, raised, and lived in Baltimore for most of my life and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, it is a terrible place to live and it is not safe. Right, drive into the wrong part of town, and it may be the very last time you drive anywhere.
Larger untapped market? Montreal? Baseball has conducted this study. The top two conceivable markets have franchise rights attached to them, and the next was Montreal. We have to think of these teams as national and global business as well. When a person watches or listens to mlbtv stream they receive localized ads between innings.
Kansas City draws from a region that extends 4 hour or more to the west. The Orioles issue is that they aren’t competitive. Call a city a dumpster fire is fine, whatever. But that would eliminate a lot of teams. It’d lead to the conclusion that the Yankees should move from the Bronx.
The update states billions in funding is in place for Camden Yards. Sounds like this was nothing over nothing.
MASN for the Nationals is an unmitigated disaster and has been from day one.
If the Orioles with ties to the region since the early 50s…some amazing history…can’t overtake the Nationals…it’s their own fault. The Nationals DO have a title now, but precious little else. The Orioles are a sleeping giant, and anyone wishing to rebuild a team as a potential owner should have their eyes on them. Camden Yards is outstanding. They play the Red Sox and Yankees frequently for solid draws. Run them right, and you’ll thrive
The future looks much brighter for the O’s than the Nats at this moment in time.
The Nats farm system is terrible and they have a couple horrendous contracts on the books. Juan Soto is the saving grace that can rebuild that farm system but one player isn’t going to make that farm top tier. I don’t think the Nats are anywhere near being competitive.
St Louis is worse in terms of crime. Nearly 50% worse. Anyone calling for the Cardinals to be moved because of the insane crime rate there? Baltimore is a small TV market that is separate from the DC Hagerstown market. If you include DC with Baltimore its a huge market. The 3rd largest TV market. Many in the DC area are still Orioles fans, Nashville is a smaller market than Baltimore alone. Before the trust was set up in 2017 and John had to get approval from both Louis and Georgia for spending, the team did quite well with him at the helm from 2011-2016.
@outinleftfeild this is coming from someone who lives and works in stl, a lot of our crime numbers are skewed, yes we have the highest % rate but also the city of stl is barley 400k so our numbers are skewed. now i’m not saying stl doesn’t have its problems but what big metro area doesn’t. for the most part the stl area isn’t as bad as the media makes it out to be. yes there are bad areas especially if your the wrong ethnicity after dark, but as a guy that sometimes work in these bad areas, i treat everyone with respect and try to be friendly to them regardless of there background. then again i’m just a visitor in there backyard and i try to be respectful of that
I’m calling for the Cardinals to be moved. They don’t call St. Louis the LOO for no reason. It’s a sewer. I’d be just fine not messing around down there. Joking of course. But they did put the new park away from the fans out in places like Chesterfield.
Exactly ED….I got at least three markets in mind I’d prefer over Baltimore. Nashville, New Otleans, and Las Vegas
Best thing for the Orioles would be for the Angelos family to sell the team and let them fight over the money while someone who actually cares about the team runs it
mired at the top, bottom, and every where in between
The best part of all this is that a jury will be assembled of working class ham and eggers who will lose out on their work day to settle a dispute between multi-millionaires fighting over a multi-billion dollar operation.
Not going to be a jury trial where none of the jurists have any knowledge legally of what is being discussed. Lawyers and negotiation long before it ever goes to any kind of trial setting. Then, simply a sequence of hearings.
Which is every jury trial. People selected at random have no concept of how to interpret the law. It’s a very outdated custom.
There is nothing on earth that will teach you what your siblings are REALLY like more than the death, or soon to be death, of a parent. You can really be surprised at times.
I saw this with my gramps and he had 8 kids whom all didn’t get along. I quickly found out how petulant and petty some of my uncles are and it wasn’t about his estate. He would died sooner of a stroke if he had been conscious.
I want those problems.
Someone was asking the general history of the Orioles. The current Orioles franchise began in Milwaukee, and dates from the St. Louis Browns in the AL of 1902.
Ed "The Mythical One"
Once again I turn out to be correct about something while everyone else hates me for it and tells me I am crazy.
Do things make sense to you all now that you all know? How this team is being run, why they won’t spend any money on it, why they don’t keep their free agents, why they are trying to trade any talent worth a darn for something cheap.
This isn’t a rebuild. It is a dismantling and paring down. Reduce costs to improve profit when it is sold.
Before Loria sold the Marlins, he put the franchise on the hook for Stanton’s massive contract, the largest ever at the time, cagily backloading it so he’d never have to pay the top annual salaries in the contract before he unloaded the team.
Loria was also a huge scumbag and got sued by the city of Miami for being sheisty
You’re saying this to people who are baseball fans enough to frequent this site? This Orioles thing seems obvious without knowing the exact details of why.
Ed "The Mythical One"
Yes I am, because I have had people arguing with me to no end that this wasn’t the case when I mentioned it before the season started and calling me all kinds of names for it.
Sorry to be cynical, but read John Angelos’ statement with the thought of “hey, getting a free $1..2 billion of taxpayer money, can we just all shut up until after everything is paid for?”
I read his “celebrating” and wondered how those public schools are doing. Turn these owners loose…they’ll be forced to make good business decisions. We’ll be better off for it.
John Angelos was part of the negotiations to get that deal done. A deal that ensures that the Orioles stay in Baltimore for decades at the very least. Most of that money would not be spent on Camden Yards, it would be spent revitalizing the downtown and Inner Harbor area around and near the park. Its good thing for Baltimore and all the businesses in the area will benefit.
If it does to Baltimore anything like PNC did for Pittsburgh…it’s a social win.
Maryland General Assembly passing a bill promising to put $1.2 billion into reinvesting and reimagining the Camden Yards Sports Complex,
So the taxpayers are going to give these corrupt and nasty oligarchs at least 1.2 BILLION of free cash and no one complains about “socialism”?! It is OK for oligarchs to be showered with free cash for destroying teams, hording taxpayer cash and using that cash to buy politicians and soccer teams in England, but it is “evil” for teams to be owned by the fans/cities/areas that actually put up the cash for these teams to exist?! Don’t you see something sick here? We need to get rid of these handful of Russian-style oligarchs destroying baseball. What do they provide? Not money to build stadiums, or hire good players, or care about our communities as they threaten to move our teams away, and engage in countless “rebuilds”. Let’s do what the Packers and countless soccer teams have done: get rid of these parasitic welfare kings and have fans/cities/areas own the teams we love and pay for!
No one complains about it? Where you at? Laws have actually been passed to prevent it in places. And the vast majority of these deals are rejected.
Are any of the top flight soccer teams internationally actually owned by the fans or government? Some of the lower-level teams are, but I’m not aware of any of the power teams.
The one exception is Brazil, where all of the teams are arranged similar to the Packers.
How do yo make dumpster fire a BIGGER dumpster fire that burns down a whole city? I give you the Angelos family. They make the Steinbrenner kids looks like they are geniuses.
C Yards Jeff
John. Thank you for the response to these allegations. I feel much better. Go gettem! And Lou, please reconsider the suit. Best wishes to the two of youse, your Mom and your Dad!
“….the Orioles will never leave.” John Angelo’s’ promises are the kiss of death.
dclive – Exactly. I’m old enough to remember another Baltimore team owner say “I’m not moving the g–d— team” just weeks before he did just that.
You mean the Colts, who were going to be seized by the state of Maryland under the guise of Eminent Domain?
Ed "The Mythical One"
Only after they figured out his plan to move.
Your logic is stunningly bad. John Angelos just spent 2 years negotiating improvements to Camden Yards and the surrounding area that will include an extension of the Orioles lease for decades.
We have not yet seen the signed extension.
And agreeing to fund $1.2B can be reversed quite easily by the legislature by choosing to defund this initiative. It could be done within minutes on a roll call vote.
Just pointing out how easily this all can go away.
I think they are trying to maximize the value of the team before selling, but putting a competitive product on the field would also help the value increase – no one’s very interested in this.
Its public record. You can see the documents. The legislature initiated the negotiations to include Camden Yards and not just the initial $166 million investment from the state in the downtown and Inner Harbor area because the Camden Yards lease is up at the end of 2023. John has been consistent in saying the Orioles will take the 5 year extension that is available to the Orioles if a new long term lease is not in place by then. They already had a $1.3+ billion deal in place to sell the in 2020 that was initiated by Lou and Georgia, but the purchasing party would not commit to keeping the team in Baltimore so John said no. Since all 3 parties in the trust have to sign off on a sale, that effectively killed the sale. Hard for John to green light investments in the team when his little brother won’t sign off on any because he wants both his share of team profits and a big payday from the team being sold.
If it’s public record and you can see the documents then post the link
Sell the team to Vince Mcmahon!
The WWF boss who took the XFL into bankruptcy at the beginning of the Covid-19 pandemic.
John going to be a hero when, once clearly in charge, bucks up to bring Judge to Charm City…
Anyone else notice that “Lou Angelos” is awfully close to “Los Angeles”
We have all met people like Louis. Entitled brats with a rich daddy that think the world owes them a favor. Having known both since I was in school at Duke, I can say from personal experience that John is a straight shooter, a character attribute you have to be in order to be a good negotiator. Something to understand in regard to this lawsuit, is that the team and family business is in a trust and for John to be appointed as the managing partner of the Orioles both Louis and their mom Georgia had to sign off on it. Not just one, both. I can see no way that Louis has any standing for this lawsuit and he is likely just angling to get bought out by John and Georgia since there was a $1.3 billion offer on the table in 2020
Seems like the simplest way of ending the dispute – when Peter Angelos passes away, give Lou A the $450M and wish him good luck.
I guess Louis wants the money more than the team. Seems like this will only become further complicated when the father passes and then the mother passes as her share will move to the sons.
Has anything great come out of inheriting an exorbitant amount of wealth?