Derek Shelton has only a 127-214 record over his two-plus seasons as the Pirates’ manager, as Shelton has been given the difficult task of overseeing the team through an extensive rebuilding period. Despite the lack of on-field results, Pirates GM Ben Cherington told reporters (including The Athletic’s Rob Biertempfel) that Shelton will continue to manage the club through the 2023 season, which is the last year of Shelton’s initial contract.
“I love working with Shelty and this staff. They work their tails off every day and care so much about getting this right,” Cherington said. “I’m so confident at the level of effort this staff puts in and I’m looking forward to this group benefiting from the fruits of their labor. I think they will as our roster matures and gets stronger.”
Naturally, Shelton’s record is far from a determining factor in his job security, given how little he has been given to work with on Pittsburgh’s roster. As Cherington noted that “I think we’re at a moment in time (when) progress should not be measured entirely by wins and losses,” and that “I really do believe we’re making progress in a lot of ways that isn’t showing up — it’s not going to show up publicly — but will help lead us to success” in the future.
While the Bucs have only a 47-72 record, the 2022 season has seen such notable youngsters as Oneil Cruz, Roansy Contreras, Rodolfo Castro, and Tucupita Marcano all get more of an extended look at the big league level. Bryan Reynolds has already established himself as an All-Star caliber player, David Bednar has emerged as a quality closer, and Ke’Bryan Hayes has become one of baseball’s best defenders, so the active roster isn’t bereft of productive talent. Plus, many of the top prospects acquired since Cherington took over in November 2019 have yet to even reach the majors.
With all this in mind, it is simply too early to evaluate many aspects of the Pirates’ rebuild, with Shelton’s performance as manager being one of those rather unknown quantities. Since a season still remains on Shelton’s deal, it would’ve been perhaps more of a surprise if a managerial change did happen, as such a move would’ve indicated that Cherington or ownership had some issue with how Shelton was shepherding the Pirates’ young talent. The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal observed back in April that “Shelton has served almost as an assistant general manager” to Cherington, and the fact that Shelton received a four-year commitment in his first managerial job perhaps speaks to the early confidence that Cherington showed.
Both Cherington and Shelton (in a radio interview earlier this week) declined to say whether or not any talks had been held about a possible contract extension. A new long-term deal, of course, would be the clearest sign of the Pirates’ faith in their manager, though it is also pretty common for teams to give skippers even a one-year extension just to avoid any “lame duck” perception. At this point, it seems a pretty safe bet that Shelton and the Pirates will work out at least a shorter-term deal, even if such an agreement might not be official until around the start of the 2023 season.
Sure. Why not?
He is better than Aaron Boone.
Not at all
Yes he is. In every way.
Positive on the surface, ominous in the fine print.
It’s David Bednar, not Jason.
Strange error for me to make, but an error nonetheless. Thanks for pointing it out!
Ready to lose another 100 games in 2023!
Ok, but at least get rid of Andy Haines.
Meh.
2023 buccos are dead. Shelton is bum. Fire Shelton, Haines comes after.
If you’re going to tear it down, you should absolutely let your manager see it through unless they prove to be entirely incompetent.
Shelton is the 2nd coming of John Russell. Not only is Shelton incompetent, but he comes off as lazy, which is a dangerous combination.
@bucsfan: Incompetent and lazy?! Those are some damning (and borderline-defamatory) remarks. What’s your valid evidence?
He doesn’t argue with umpires when their strike zones are beyond the plate, he uses an almost completely different lineup every game, he’s quick to pull some starters out then leaves others in too long, his use of the worst player on the team in crucial offense and defense times ( Van Meter) and is manager of the worst hitting team in all of baseball
I rest my case
@TheMan: Okay, so in your valid or invalid expert or non-expert opinion, he’s bad at pulling/keeping starters. I don’t see anything else that you offered that plausibly addresses laziness or incompetence.
And how do you know he’s not directed to use Van Meter the way that he does?
Apparently you don’t watch every game, and if Shelton is directed to use Van Meter by Cherington or Nutting, I have even less respect for the manager
A strong leader would refuse to use VM
Animal- I am only addressing the VM question.Do you think that Nutting even knows who VM is?Why would Cherington get involved with what is essentially a manager’s decision?If they get rid of VM,or keep him,will it make any difference in the standings?I think that originally it was having a backup at first base but they now have many options regarding that one.It seems to me that Shelton thinks that he is some kind of super utility player.SRod was that.Van Meter,not even close.I think that BC needs to take charge on this one.
The hitters have shown that they were over hyped and are not developing,for whatever reason.Changes need to be made.Nutting is aware of the lack of progress in that regard,and a good owner interjects himself when he needs to do so,especially if his president and gm are oblivious to it.
I think that at this point there should be no discussion for extending Shelton until they can put a decent team on the field.
@animalize
With most of the hitters struggling, batting around .200, maybe not quite ready for how major league pitchers are attacking them, etc, you know, typical stuff young players have to go thru. When asked about his previous roles as a hitting instructor and could he offer any help/advice to his young lineup, he basically said ‘nope’ and prefers to delegate his duties and keeps a hands off approach. #lazy
There is nothing wrong with Shelton getting involved in the hitting aspect if there is no progress being made.The hitting coaches work for him.It is also his job on the line in a well run organization.
Shelton should have opinions on what is not working and should take charge as the status quo is not working.He supposedly has expertise in this area and may very well have been hired partially because of that expertise.
That is not necessarily being lazy but may say that he is not comfortable pulling rank.It also may further imply that he is not comfortable with holding the young hitters accountable for their failure to improve.
If so,this would be a worrisome situation.
I don’t understand the infatuation with Shelton, he’s not even a high school baseball coach. Him and his whole coaching staff should be fired
Bubba- There you go making assumptions based on no truth.
Where in that paragraph says that I am infatuated with Shelton?
I am not a fan of his but you cannot just go out and fire people and have a constant merry go around.He has pluses and minuses just like any big league manager.
If he is so inept then you must want to fire BC too because he has given him an endorsement.
I think that you read between the lines but use words that are not there.
@TheMan: Strong leader, lol. Employees do what their bosses tell them. What planet do you live on??!
Animalize-For what reason would Cherington tell him to play Josh Van Meter If he did not want to do so?Not everyone is a yes man.I could see if it was KeBryan Hayes,but Josh Van Meter?
@animalize. Calling a public figure incompetent and lazy is “borderline defamatory”? Lol…nice save on that borderline call. Gonna guess the evidence is his observed opinion. Which is just an opinion shared on a public site.
@Dock: “Lazy” is an opinion. As in, “Dock_Elvis has an extremely lazy brain that barely functions”.
“Incompetent” is defamatory.
They need to rebuild the rebuild. Once they start rebuilding the rebuild of the rebuild, rebuild that too.
I see plus minus here. He is a decent warm body out there.
Minus, Cruz has not lived up to the hype. Is this a coaching thing or just a player getting used to the MLB? is it Shelton or a bench coach?
The team should have a better record than they do currently. what ever the coaching staff is doing, it isn’t working so far.
assuming nothing changes and he is back in the spring, then he should be on a short leash.
I’m worried Shelton won’t know how to 1) recognize who the starters are & 2) run out a consistent line up on a daily basis. He screws with the line up every day. He sits a hot hitter & replaces him with someone hitting .180. He plays INF’s in the OF & OF’s in the INF, sometimes in the same game.
Now, regarding Cherington; he picks up waiver claims hitting .180 & as he does with prospects he calls up, puts their name on a ball of play doh & throws it on a wall in his office. As long as it sticks, they stay on the team; no matter if they hit .180 with no HR’s or not (see Yoshi Tsutsugo). I’ll bet the equipment manager has calluses on his sewing fingers.
Lastly, an issue their both culpable for, player development is terrible. See pitching staff, see base running errors, , see O’Neil Cruz, with the rocket arm, double clutch & never even attempt to throw a relay to home, see a team leading the league in K’s, but it’s the hitters.
Th enough for now, I think they just called up another SS, now where do we play him???
Perfect description of this frustrating year. Cruz IS NOT. a major league shortstop at this time. He, Cruz, thinks he is but his play shows otherwise. I’m not sure these coaches are capable of using “tough love” with these alleged future stars. Coaching staff seems to just pamper them and continue to tell them how good they are even though they see little improvement. These players MUST be shown that they MUST EARN their spot in the lineup. To me, this coaching staff has not shown them that reality.
Cherington follows the management style provided by Bob Nutting
Dumpster dive for players before bringing up prospects in order to prevent them from earning a full year service and go before arbitration too early
Cherington and Shelton only follow the objectives of the owner
Make it appear the players are of a professional team so Nutting can turn the largest profit possible
@TheMan service time on prospects really isn’t a thing this year with the pirates. Really wasn’t last year either.
Shelton return = hey fans we are tanking again
The Pirates are not tanking.
They are just a bad team.
What they did do right is move many of the young players into the majors.
Some of the starting pitchers have shown real improvement.
The young hitters have shown absolutely no improvement though.
I agree that he moves people around too much in the batting order.
Fundamentally,they are poor.Who drops a cell phone from his pocket.The same guy throws to third to get someone out instead of getting the easy double play to first.The shortstop who gets the ball at third thinks that he can step on the bag to make the out.
They take too many called strike threes.Flip your bat out and foul it off if you are fooled.
These are things that I literally learned what to do right in Little League.
I am cautious that this is some of the same bs that Clint Hurdle used his last year as manager.
BC’s lack of moves for the last month is a serious problem.The ones that he has done are just plain stupid.He is not bringing up young players who should be there.And this Van Meter thing has gone from very stupid to comical to very sad.
The Teds started 3-23 but are now passing the Pirates again in the standings.
The Pirates need shook up but at this point I am starting to wonder if BC is also not part of the problem.
And that will be a very very sad thing for the twelve Pirate fans left.
What’s the Van Meter thing exactly? (Don’t follow Pirates but know that JVM’s confidence was permanently damaged by David Bell in Cincy)
Buddy-It has been a running joke of Pirate posters on this site as to how he still has a job and takes up 25 and 40 man roster places with young players who could be playing in his place.
I swore that he had photos of someone.
If Shelton has talked BC into keeping him then that alone is cause to fire Shelton now.
He is just a bad player who I doubt that anyone ruined.
Thanks for the reply!
Thanks for the reply
How can you say this when this team ran out players like Vanmeter, Yoshi and Chang night after night after night.
This was tanking when 1/3 of your lineup was a guaranteed out
Depends on what you mean by tanking..
The Astros may have tanked when they were absolutely awful for four years straight.
Why would any small market team tank?They have to win with the products of their farm system.Why should they sign high priced free agents to win 5 more games a year so they can finish with 70 wins?
Remember that the difference between the best team and the worst team in MLB is only the first pick in the draft.And there is no guarantee on that one making a difference.
Basketball teams tank because one player from the draft for two or three years straight can make you one of the top three teams in the league.
Yoshi was being paid a lot relatively speaking and they were hoping that he would come back like last year.Chang was picked up for a few games to play first base.His 40 or so at bats hardly means anyone is tanking.Van Meter is unexplainable as they have other minor leaguers who could fill his spot.That is just poor management of resources.Would they have won two more games with him replaced?Maybe.
Tanking is way overused by many if not most posters on this site.
Do you watch the Pirates? Have you seen their lineups? When you knowingly start horrible players when you have players in the minors that need a chance then it’s tanking.
The player with the 2nd most HR on the team has been in AAA 2/3 of the season.
Just look at the lineups and you can see it clearly. If you are not even trying to put out a competitive lineup it’s tanking. At one point this season they had a lineup in which no player was hitting above .210. You can’t make this stuff up
The reason that they had so many players hitting 210 was because they had all been promoted from the minors.
Nutting will not pay for good bench players when his team is this bad.
You just do not just magically find 280 hitters.
The problems with the Pirates have nothing to do with tanking.They just do not have many good major league hitters.
I do think that they have manipulated a few players service time,but almost every team does that.
That is not tanking.
This thing with Van Meter is unexplainable as far as I am concerned.That is why I am concerned as there has been no logical reason to keep him the second half of the year.
the problem with this is that almost all the team fits your suggesting of minors players getting chances. Almost no one in AAA is really ready and/or injured.
the player with the second most HRs also has a .288 OBP. The fact he got called up at all is wild..
Keeping Yoshi as long as they did and Vanmeter especially is probably the biggest mistake of the season.
What exactly does a MLB team gain by tanking? Not the draft picks for sure, they are too hit and miss and most too far in the future. The only advantage I see is the owner keeps the payroll low and gets to pocket more money!
Just a hodgepodge of nothingness
Eck didn’t say anything that wasn’t true
RSox-That is true but it keeps him from addressing the Red Sox doesn’t it?
And the Royals and Tigers and until this year the Orioles have been as bad or worse that the Pirates for an even longer period.
My guess is that he does not like BC and the fact that the Pirates payroll is very low unlike the mediocre Red Sox payroll.
Its not like people are lining up to take the Pirates job. Shelton is not really any better or worse than Lloyd McClendon, John Russell, or any of the other Managers this team has had in-between the Jim Leyland and Clint Hurdle era’s…
RSox- That is true also.You are on a roll.But there are always young managers in waiting who have ability and will jump at a Pirates opening,especially with the number of prospects with some potential.
Sometimes change is necessary for change’s sake and the hitting instructor should go regardless.
Altoona AA manager should be given the job. Look at this resume
That was my first thought when Shelton was hired. Managing the Pirates is basically an entry level, get your foot in the door, type of managerial gig. The Buck Showalter’s, Bud Black’s, Bruce Bochy’s aren’t even going to return Cherington’s phone call. Which is why I think Mike Shildt, Henry Muelens and Jay Bell should be the top candidates when Shelton is relieved of his duties. All would have some reason to accept the gig and presumably all would be at worst just more of the same but with the potential to be better.
All three of those names are older than Shelton. So if a “young” manager is the direction, none of them are the way to go.
Jason Kendall could certainly fit that bill and has already been working with the teams minor leaguers this season
RSox-Kendall could be their choice next year as if this middle year swoon continues this year and into next year I would fire Shelton early in the year.
He has to be held accountable just like the players are.
The problem that I have with Kendall is that I do not know that he has managed and I do not know how well he worked with the other players when he played.I had seen an article that said that him and Giles were loners.
I do think that Kendall would hold these guys accountable and know the fundamentals of the game.Shelton may be too much like Hurdle was.
I don’t particularly care about a manager’s age. I also think Kendall needs more than one year working with minor leaguers before getting an MLB manager gig but I do believe he would be a good manager sometime soon.
Bring back Clint Hurdle, at last there would be some fire in their dugout.
Big-I am pretty sure that you are joking,as any Pirate fan knows that Hurdle was borderline comatose his last year.
Now Sean Rodriguez,he would bring some much needed fire to the dugout!
But the year earlier was actually his finest.
Big-They did have a good year in 2018 by Pirates standards and Hurdle was part of the reason.That was the biggest reason that they traded for Archer.
I think that he personally got worn down by constant competing against big market teams who can afford to waste lots of money.
Pirates are hamstrung by an Owner who refuses to support the team in a competent manner. As such, in order to have a chance the GM, Mgr, and Player Development team all have to excel at their jobs for the team to be competitive. Unfortunately, other than possibly drafting talented players, I’m not convinced there’s any one area of competence currently displayed by these people.
Cherington has failed miserably at roster construction (no 1B, no C depth, no OF depth, no RP or SP depth, etc), FA signings, and building good will in the clubhouse and community. Just look how they handled Contreras demotion to prevent Super 2 as an example.
Shelton is a horrible in-game manager. In a recent game, a middle of the order bat who had already hit a HR & a triple, came up down a run with a runner on base, and he orders them to bunt! Of course the strategy failed and the team lost. One of a hundred examples of why Shelton has the W/L record he does.
And other than Endy Rodriguez, Mike Burrows, and Quinn Priester, which of the top prospects in the Pirates system have shown improvement this year?
The near-term future of this team is bleak, and keeping Shelton and Cherington in place for next season only makes it bleaker. A competent Owner would recognize this and recognize his mistake and fix it. No chance Nutting does this though.
Let’s not forget he uses Van Meter as a pinch hitter when there’s runners in scoring position and the game is on the line
Another of a hundred different reasons DS is a sub-optimal in-game Manager.
He most definitely has a bromance with JVM though.
Does he use the Speed Hitter with his players?
I assume it’s a quality product and he stands behind it by using with his MLB players, right?
Josh- He used to work for Ronco products.
That clip was eight years ago but he looked pretty good swinging speed hitter albeit obviously not against major league pitchers.
Maybe Shelton should become a player manager.Could he do any worse than most of his players?
I am not a fan of Shelton or of Haines, but they may only be the tip of the iceberg. We are in year three of Cherington and it appears that the entire Pirates organization has taken a significant step backwards. Cherington talked of the importance of player development but the performance of both the major league and the minor league hitters show little or no evidence of development. Cherington traded for lots of “prospects”, but few are performing at the level that inspires hope or confidence.
Perhaps Shelton and Cherington deserve one more year to show results, but if there is not considerable improvement next year, both probably should go. Heck, at least last year the Pirates were somewhat entertaining.
I agree with you Skeptical on Shelton,and somewhat on Cherington,but he would be much tougher to replace.
I would give Shelton 50 games to at least break even next year,and if not,have someone in the can to take over.
If the team digresses next year it will be because the young players are not getting better,and then you can can BC as well at the end of the year.
I personally felt they were going to make a bigger step forward this year, especially when they were hitting better at the beginning of the season. They have serious problems as they are not hitting, fielding or pitching this year. I personally think there is quality talent in minors but I still worry about their ability to develop talent, a majority of their top prospects in the minors are underperforming this year. I truly hope next year sees some steps forward because right now it looks like we will need 10 years of the 5 year rebuild.
I don’t even buy five year rebuilds.Some of these small market teams show improvement in only 1-2 years after bottoming out. None are going to win the World Series but they become competitive and then start to compete for the playoffs.
He’s doing a good job of putting his job security in jeopardy with this terrible finish. All the playing hard for him, they like playing for him rah rah bs is done. Have to think a change could be made after this listless finish to the season.