Perhaps the biggest offseason storyline in Pittsburgh has been the saga involving center fielder Bryan Reynolds. The All-Star outfielder requested a trade after extension talks between his camp and the Bucs fizzled out in December. Reports suggested the Pirates had offered more than the $70MM they guaranteed Ke’Bryan Hayes but the specific numbers under discussion had been unclear.
Jon Heyman of the New York Post now reports Pittsburgh had put forth a six-year offer that would’ve guaranteed $76MM. Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reported last month the sides had been roughly $50MM apart in negotiations, suggesting Reynolds’ camp was seeking somewhere around $126MM.
The 28-year-old Reynolds has between three and four years of big league service. He’s set to make $6.75MM for the upcoming season and will be eligible for arbitration twice more before qualifying for free agency after the 2025 campaign. Sean Murphy, who’s also 28 and in the same service bucket, inked a six-year, $73MM extension with the Braves in December. Pittsburgh’s offer was right in that range, making for an interesting comparison point.
It’s fair to debate which of Murphy or Reynolds is the better player. The Atlanta catcher is coming off a .250/.332/.426 line in a pitcher-friendly environment in Oakland. That brought his career line up to .236/.326/.429 in 1260 plate appearances, offense that’s 16 percentage points above league average as measured by wRC+. Reynolds is a better hitter, owning a career .281/.361/.481 line that rates as 26 points above average. He’s coming off a .262/.345/.461 showing in 2022.
That said, Murphy has the edge on the other side of the ball. He’s among the game’s top few defensive catchers, with two-way production at the position that’s among the best in the league. Reynolds also plays up the middle but rated as a below-average center fielder last season. He’s capable of playing center and likely would be a plus defender in the corner outfield, but that’s less valuable than elite defense behind the dish.
Given the terms of the Murphy extension, Pittsburgh’s reported offer to Reynolds is defensible. Yet Reynolds had an edge over Murphy in earning power during their arbitration seasons, with Murphy’s originally projected $3.5MM arb salary for 2023 more than $3MM below what Reynolds will make. That difference — attributable both to Reynolds’ gaudier offensive counting stats and qualification for early arbitration last offseason as a Super Two player — would’ve likely held or compounded over the next two years if both players had gone year-by-year through that process. That’s because a player’s arbitration salaries are generally designed to escalate relative to the prior year’s figure.
Freddie Freeman holds the record for the largest extension among players in the 3-4 year service bucket. The first baseman signed an eight-year, $135MM pact with the Braves nine years ago. Whether Reynolds’ camp was seeking to beat that number or merely approach it isn’t clear, though the reported gap in negotiations suggestions they were well closer to that figure than to the $76MM the Pirates had put on the table. While Reynolds’ camp could argue that’s a dated precedent, Freeman represented a safer long-term bet than Reynolds does. Freeman was nearly four years younger at the time of his deal and coming off a .319/.396/.501 showing in 2013 that rivals Reynolds’ career-best season (.302/.390/.522) from 2021.
Once Reynolds rejected the Bucs’ offer and registered his trade request, most public attention turned to the possibility of him changing teams. However, Heyman writes Pittsburgh continues to have interest in negotiating an extension. There’s no indication of any plans to reopen talks, nor is it known if Reynolds’ camp would even be open to doing so at this point, but the team’s continued desire for a long-term deal supports the numerous reports of an astronomical ask from other teams in trade discussions.
The Rangers, Marlins, Yankees, Rockies, Braves and Red Sox have all been at least loosely linked to Reynolds at points this offseason. All six of those clubs still has some level of uncertainty in its outfield. Heyman writes Miami, in particular, has been among the most aggressive suitors — the continuation of longstanding interest on the Fish’s part that dates back at least to last winter.
The Marlins are planning to move Jazz Chisholm Jr. to center field after acquiring Luis Arraez to man second base. That could diminish any desire to meet Pittsburgh’s ask, though there’s still room to upgrade a left field mix likely to consist of some combination of Jesús Sánchez, Bryan De La Cruz and JJ Bleday. A Reynolds trade this offseason still appears a long shot, however, with no indication the Pirates plan to lower their demands as the start of Spring Training approaches.
bucsfan0004
6/76? I’d request a trade, too. That offer is obscenely low, even for Nutting.
Yankee Clipper
If they don’t trade him Reynolds is going to hop in his ‘77 Trans Am and drive across the country with his girlfriend…
mydogcrowder
Clip what do you think of the deal? I think he should ink somewhere in the 92-97mil range so Reynolds asking price is definitely a little high at this point.
Yankee Clipper
MDC: honestly, man, I was thinking about $100-$110MM range. Not far off from you at all, give or take $10MM.
mydogcrowder
What I don’t like people saying is it’s not “market value”. Of course not hes arb eligible. The pirates are making an offer in the hopes that he understands he could get hurt before he hits the FA market. That’s why players sign multi-year deals when they are arb eligible. It’s to get their feet wet. But Reynolds is pretty old for a super 2 player. He could literally be in the league only 5 more years if we’re being honest with ourselves…..
Domingo111
That is true, obviously the deal is going to be lower as it is buying out arb years.
However he is only 2 years away from free agency and he is likely is going to have made around 40m or so in career earnings when hitting free agency (after 2023 it will be 13m so if he makes 12 and 15 his last 2 arb years it will be around 40m).
Only 13 of those 40 are guaranteed but the 40 are quite likely so it makes sense for him to bet on himself and hope he can sign an 80-100m dollar contract at age 31.
There is risk that this doesn’t work out but really it is worth the risk to take the likely 40 and maybe 80+ later than take 70 guaranteed now especially considering that this means he can pick his franchise as the Pirates have great prospects but there is no guarantee that Nutting is going to keep this team together better than he did with the mid 2010s team.
PoisonedPens
Any MLB player can get hurt at any time; however it’s a lot less likely for an outfielder in his prime, with no injury history, to have a career-ending injury than a pitcher. The Pirates are lowballing,,. in the marketplace Reynolds would definitely have a higher value than Nimmo, that’s for damn sure. Remember Nutting is cashing a check from MLB for far more than the operating expenses of the team, before the team itself even sells a ticket!
stymeedone
@poisoned pens
Please enlighten me to what the operating expenses of the Pirates comes to. Your obviously an insider and can enlighten all of us with your knowledge.
Kruk it
They’ll give him 6/90 and then ship him elsewhere
joew
@PoisonedPens As far as i’m aware only one deal that gave money directly to team owners from the MLB. That would have been online video streaming(i think?) sale. first pay day was for 50M for each teams owner groups. I think there is another one that went through or soon will be. Not sure of the amount. After that money gets spread through the owners group, i wonder how much went to Bob. not sure how many are in the group pretty safe to say he got the majority.
And no, the pirates don’t receive more money than the operating expenses from the MLB. Maybe close to payroll the past couple years but not expense.
I get that Bob is the punching bag for everything going wrong… and much of it should be hes the top of the chain being head of the group that owns the team… but takes way too much heat that he deserves.
TheMan 3
So says the fan of a team that spends $200 million plus to watch the WS from the comforts of their caves year after year
jopeness
@TheMan, you are so bitter and use the same reply almost daily to any Yankee-related post. I understand some of the Yankee fan posters here are a bit over the top, but you’d think by now you’d just reply to them and not all.
utah cornelius
TheMan3 is like a bitter old man shaking his fist at the sky, barking at children to keep off the lawn. Can’t enjoy his own team winning so he pokes his flaming pitchfork at Yankee fans.
Me? I would take my team going to the playoffs every year over a team that doesn’t ever darn day of the week. Even if they don’t win the WS. Perennial contention is worth a lot.
TheMan 3
I’m not bitter, I genuinely hate everyone, you included jopeness
TheMan 3
My hatred also includes you, Utah
jopeness
@theman well as long as you don’t discriminate you can enjoy your misery
Mendoza Line 215
Jope-The Man is not a bad guy.
He,like some of the rest of us long time Pirate fans,have experienced four winning seasons in thirty years.We had the second best regular season record for a three year period and only advanced past the wild card round once then met the team in the same division who had the best record each year and over the same period.
The last three and a half years this team has clearly been the worst in baseball.We have had to experience all of the trolls,idiots,and arrogant posters on this website.
This would try the patience of Job.
cpdpoet
So clip, I guess what your sayin’ is:
“For the good old American life. For the money, the glory, and the fun. Mostly for the money.”
labial
Why stay? 6 more years of last place?
Rsox
It is Groundhog Day, maybe Reynolds saw his shadow?…
Ben10
They’re offering peanuts and asking back for the moon. I’d hold out too if I were Reynolds.
bucsfan0004
He’s not holding out. Wrong sport. Its just a lowball offer and Reynolds has concluded a deal will never come together. So he requested a trade. So the Pirates can either trade him and get something now, or not trade him and watch his value to the Bucs slowly erode.
Ben10
I was talking about an offer, not reporting to the club. Wrong assumption. And the best time for Pittsburgh to trade him will be at the Trade Deadline. His value will never be higher.
Mendoza Line 215
Ben-Trade deadline will be important for Reynolds.
I think that the Pirates are trying to find out out several things until then,and the last is about Reynolds.
1- will Cruz need to be moved to right field based on fielding inadequacy,especially if Peguero plays well in AAA
2)will Bae take over centerfield
3)how well will Suwinski play,and also Mitchell
4)will Andujar seem like he has overcome physical problems and turn into a good leftfielder in AAA
5)if the Pirates are playing poorly again,and they can get a good deal for ML ready players,they will trade him-if others do not progress,they will tend to want in trade what they want now
6-only then will they decide if they want to come to a compromise contract amount with Reynolds,assuming that he is having a good year
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
People don’t seem to understand the concept of arbitration. It’s much more reasonable than giving 6/126 to a guy with 3 arb seasons left with maybe 25 or 30 in earning potential. Maybe, add a few years, but still.
YourDreamGM
6 76 is fine. Murphy is a good comp. Just not a good length for Reynolds. Need to lock him up until 35 36. Who wants to be a free agent at 33 34 if they can wait 3 years and be at 30 31. Pirates should definitely make a final offer of 7 or 8 years 100 million and 1 cent. At least then they could tell all the yinzers we offered him over a hundred million dollars! I actually think he would sign for that or little bit more. 50 million apart isn’t much. Nobody gives their minimum so likely only 25 30 million apart when you get down to it.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Something you said finally made sense! Good job.
CaptainJudge99
Yes, it definitely seems like $100 million dollars to short. Reynolds is much better player then Brandon Nimmo. He was wise to not accept that offer. Reynolds obviously needs to be traded at this point.
mookie1
@CJ99
6/76 might be light, but not by 100 million. Apples to oranges, Nimmo was a free agent, while Reynolds still has 3 years of team control. Not disputing that Reynolds is a better player, but 6/176 is about 45 million per year for his three years of free agency that your buying out.
CaptainJudge99
Starting to think getting traded out of Pittsburgh is like escaping purgatory.
stymeedone
Even if you’re traded to Florida?
cpdpoet
Nicer weather and social scene…..yup….
TheMan 3
Living in New York is no picnic either
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Lmao at “biggest off-season story line.”
Then lmao way harder at 6yrs/76m!
No wonder he wants to be traded.
Even if he hits .270/.330 with moderate power over the next couple of years, he’ll get twice that..
And I’m one of those who thinks he’s overrated.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
And btw..the “in Pittsburgh” wasn’t in the article yet when I posted this..
MLB Top 100 Commenter
In Pittsburgh
tstats
Biggest off-season storyline… in Pittsburgh
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
That wasn’t there originally..
tstats
didnt see your second comment when I commented, all is good mate
YourDreamGM
150 million for a .330 and moderate power I don’t think so.
CleaverGreene
No he won’t. He’s a LF in 2-3 years. He wants CF money. This is similar to the Devers situation. Boston thought he should be paid 1B/DH money because that’s what he’ll be. Eventually, they caved.
Yankee Clipper
If the Pirates could only play in the same city as the Steelers they could start spending some money… it’s a shame they don’t have some type of revenue sharing program in MLB…
YourDreamGM
I wouldn’t want to give my larger revenue to a smaller revenue. Would make things a lot more interesting for fans.
stymeedone
You probably wouldn’t want your market to be reduced to the same size as those smaller markets. Let add another team to LA or NY, and tell the current teams they will have to compensate the new team or have their games blacked out in the competing market. If you want the teams to not have revenue Sharing, the market sizes have to be similar.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
They aren’t really being that cheap in this particular instance. 6/76 would really be about 3/50 for his free agent years. Length can definitely be increased, but I’d only do that 126 over 8 full years since it’s 5/100 approximately. Overall, though, I’d agree to some extent, except they did overpay some free agents to just say they spent. That’s probably worse than not spending at all, imo. At least the future looks bright with the farm.
Yankee Clipper
Yeah, I completely agree with you DTR. I think he’s a little high on his asking price. I’d be closer to the $100MM range in this case, but if it’s 8 I would go a bit higher, as you stated.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Wait… You mean 100-110 over 6? That’s about 33 million a season on an extension. That’s Correa money there.
Yankee Clipper
Wait, I’m tired so forgive me if I missed something: but if it’s $100/6 shouldn’t that be just under $20MM / season AAV?
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Sorry, I forgot to clarify I am assuming 3/25 for the arb seasons. I am tired too. I had in my head I was looking at 126 over 6. I’ll go back to sleep now. Your thing of 110 is about 85 maybe over 3
Yankee Clipper
Haha! It’s okay, man. It’s brutal trying to process this when tired. All in all, we are on the same page. No way he should get $30MM/year.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
The Steelers thrive in PIttsburgh, as do the Penguins.
But, that is because of a salary cap.
Which MLB won’t have because they have to put their thumb on the scale for the Yankees and other big market teams to prop up their ratings and merchandise sales.
In the past decade, virtually every NY based team in a salary cap league has done nothing because they have to make it on their own without a crutch.
Yankee Clipper
Well, I disagree, respectfully. Here’s why: first, the *cap is the crutch.* You can’t artificially suppress bigger, better markets and then say their exponentially larger fanbase, which spends much more money, is a crutch, imo. Mandating that teams cannot get better players due to overall costs simply makes it artificially imposed win/loss regulation. It’s a fix, no different than of boxing told a much bigger, better fighter he can’t throw more punches than his opponent.
Second: Salary caps hurt the parity of any league which is evidenced by the league’s competition and winners of the championship since the cap’s implementation.
Third, you say “had to make it on their own” but that’s exactly the opposite. Having teams spend according to fan/market revenue is making it “on their own.” You’ve inverted the facts, and used the “finger on the scale” analogy, which is exactly why they do when implementing a salary cap.
*Most importantly* the league disperses 100% of national TV revenue & half (48.8%) of *all other revenue* from large markets that are gifted to the smaller markets. That amount is, at absolute minimum, $130MM each and every season per team, including local TV. That is a huge crutch but smaller markets choose profit over competition.
jimmyz
The only tiny discrepancy in that post is the 100% revenue sharing going to small market teams. The league itself certainly takes a cut of that pie.
Yankee Clipper
Jimmy, if that’s in reference to my post I didn’t mean to imply that 100% of that 48% of revenue goes to small markets – it doesn’t, I agree. It also goes into a fund for the players’ retirement and amounts get dispersed on a scale based on different factors. It’s 100% of national TV money that gets divided evenly to the tune of >$60MM per team each year.
It’s also 100% of sports merchandise that gets divided evenly among all teams as well. So teams like Pitt get just as much as the Yankees do for having the highest selling NYY #99 Judge jerseys.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Respectfully, I don’t ever expect Yankees fans to see this obvious truth.
It’s kind of the whole point.
Rangers, Knicks, Islanders, Giants, Devils, Jets, Nets and until they started spending insane money like the Yankees, the Mets. ALL of them basically irrelevant for a long time now.
The Yankees? Buy a seat into contention every single season.
Just as virtually everyone involved wants.
Yankee Clipper
But that doesn’t mean I don’t see your perspective. I simply disagree that a team using revenue raised from its own market to further its own success is a “finger in the scale.” And, parity has proven to be greater in MLB than any other sport that has a cap.
What smaller markets are really saying is this: “We want more championships and a cap means the players are forced to be spread out.” Football doesn’t have small markets winning more consistently. In fact, football has more recent dynasties than baseball. It’s also establishing another one with the Eagles.
The reality is many fans simply don’t want big markets to win *or make the playoffs.* You allege they “buy” their way into postseasons. I claim they spend what it takes to acquire the talent to be that competitive each year. Small markets, like Pittsburgh, refuse to spend to acquire better players, therefore the fans want to hold the rest of the league back by artificial limitation rather than fight for better ownership.
cpdpoet
Upvote for a semi-positive Eagles statement…..
jopeness
@clip, the cities of Pittsburgh and Oakland deserve better. I thought the new CBA had some language written on spending but I think I might be confused with the NFL CBA and cap spending. I recall they had talking points of floors and ceilings but I assumed that was to take the attention away from how they screw over the minor and international players in salary, benefits and of course the service time manipulation.
Yankee Clipper
Yeah I agree. Nutting profiting the maximum amount of money has nothing to do with market size, or league caps. He just refuses to put a good product on the field and would rather take as much money as possible. Even if the league was capped at $200MM, despite what others have suggested, Nutting is still only spending $60MM or whatever.
JoeBrady
and would rather take as much money as possible.
=============================
It’s kind of an interesting take for a Yankee fan. Last I looked, the Pirates spent a much higher percentage of their revenue on player salaries than the Yankees did.
I believe that the Yankees are typically last in % of revenue spent.
Yankee Clipper
Well, the difference is this:
1) The Yankees don’t inhibit the free market or competition; in fact, they increase both,
2) I believe the Yankees should spend a higher percentage,
3) The Yankees spend approximately (depending on source) 40% – 50% of their revenue, while Pirates spend less than 33% of their total – so I don’t think your numbers are correct. I am including the revenue sharing in this percentage too because it’s still guaranteed money for Pitt.
Mendoza Line 215
Yankee-During the Pirates last 3 1/2 years they could have spent another $80M a year and become a mediocre team like they were the previous 3 1/2 years.
For who,for what.
I think that they could have spent more than they did but the ultimate prize is the World Championship.
Small market teams have won one in the last 31 years while large market teams have won well over 60% during that time period.
The proof is in the pudding.The odds are stacked no matter what fans of the large market teams think.Think of it this way- there is a reason why the best teams have the highest payrolls.It is not because the other teams want to lose.
Yankee Clipper
Yes, in a way, but that’s not necessarily an accurate measurement since the teams with low payrolls aren’t even trying.
So it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy – “We aren’t going to pay to acquire the needed talent because we are going to lose anyway.”
Therefore, we can’t know how it will play out until team actually try. Moreover, there’s more parity in MLB than any other sport. Look at the teams just over the past 10-20 years that have been in the WS. Several were middle-to-small markets.
Mendoza Line 215
Yankee-I do not know you well enough to address you by your nickname of “Clip”
I admire your courage to address small market fans in the thread of an article on one of their teams.
I also appreciate the fact that you are not an arrogant Yankee fan.
Small market teams must develop their own talent.It is the only way for them to remain reasonably good teams on anything resembling a continuous basis.
The Pirates unfortunately have done that for only one three year period in the last thirty years.
Look at what just happened to a fine team in Oakland.
These teams can only “try” when their young players have reached their peaks during the next three year period.
Championships are the aim of any team,Would the Pirates be able to afford Clemente,Stargell,Mazeroski,Law,and Face being on the team at the same time now?It takes superstars to win championships.
Yes,well run mid size teams can compete with the best.
But even they have occasional losing seasons.
I do not expect you to understand because,as Rumsfeld said “ there are unknown unknowns”.You are open minded enough so if you do not get it,almost all would not.
And if you look at the teams who have controlled the other sports it is generally because they are the most well run teams in their sport,not because they they have the highest salaries.
Yankee Clipper
Mendoza: I appreciate your opinion and your additional comments. I try to keep an open mind – I also openly acknowledge I don’t know everything. I could be wrong.
Most of all, I find these discussions are fruitful and I will go back and research more – I always do. But you can call me Clip or Yankee, or whatever, it’s cool, man.
I appreciate your responses and I think you bring up some really good points. Perhaps it is because I am a fan of a big market team… it doesn’t feel that way to me but I’m sure I have biases, inherent in any fan, that come into play regardless of how objective I intend to be.
Mendoza Line 215
Clip- We all have biases,we are only human.
Quite frankly,the large market teams each have by far the most number of fans,and the money collected from them help to run baseball.
So on a per fan basis,the money discrepancy could be considered by some to be fair.
It depends on your viewpoint.
But you at least try to see things from another’s viewpoint,unlike many posters on this website.
And for that I give you much credit.
TrillionaireTeamOperator
When he’s already making $6.25M AAV, yeah, $12.66M AAV is an insult and there’s no way he’d take that. Basically they doubled his arbitration level salary- a salary they determined to split the difference between a year over year raise, meaning it’s an even bigger insult because he would have gone from $3-$4M to $6-$9M if he hadn’t made that first two year deal.
Seems like it should be more like 2/$25M followed by 5/$100M, minimum. It’s still a bit below market value but it’s not an insult.
If he was asking for $120M-ish and they were offering $76M, why not meet in the middle? 6 years/$100M guarantee, $2.5M of which would be a signing bonus, another $2.5M of which would be a buyout on a $26M vesting/mutual option.
Yankee Clipper
Not to mention that Pittsburgh’s ticket sales and concessions alone pay for the team’s payroll. That means the >$40 MM from local TV & >$100MM from the National TV is all profit. And that doesn’t even include the portion of money they receive out of the 48% provided out of each team’s total revenue that get divided up.
Terrible that they do this to their fanbase and league. If they would invest & win they would have a fanbase that rivals that of their football counterpart Steelers during games.
Yankee Clipper
“40 MM from local TV & >$100MM from the National TV”
Sorry, the second amount should be >$60MM from the National TV deals, resulting in >$100MM from TV deals alone.
Dorothy_Mantooth
I’m not defending Nutting by any means but the team’s payroll is far from the only costs of running an MLB team. Operating costs of a MLB team start at $50M and go as high as $200M+ in some places (look at the Atlanta Braves financials). Heck, between the amateur draft and the IFA draft, Pitt usually spends $15M per year just in these two areas each year given that they tend to have the largest pools to spend. I’m sure Nutting is making a nice return on his team but there are a LOT more expenses to factor in than just gross revenue minus team payroll when trying to figure out how much profit a team makes.
Yankee Clipper
Yes, that’s true, I didn’t mean to imply they have no other expenses so I should’ve worded that part differently. But, by all reports a team’s payroll is their chief expense, by far. Think of it this way, a 25-year executive administrator of the NY Yankees makes roughly $2MM-$3MM per year. He’s one of the highest paid administrative employees for the richest team (except perhaps the Cowboys) in N American sports.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Nutting has never once BUILT a business.
He’s a silver spoon who has made money by BLEEDING businesses he buys with his daddy’s money and leaving them as dead husks.
jimmyz
At this point Nutting is way past using his daddy’s money as he himself has made plenty from the businesses he has owned in his own name. He’s moved on to the working to give his children businesses to have stage of his life.
Dorothy_Mantooth
@Yankee Clipper – Pittsburgh ticket sales and concessions do not cover the Pirates payroll. The average ticket price at PNC park is $31/seat. Their latest average attendance in 2018, 2019 & 2021 was 18,700, 18,400 & 10,600 respectively. Let’s say they draw 18K fans for 81 games @ $31/seat. That equals $45M in ticket sales. Concessions are usually outsourced to a 3rd party who in turn pays the club either a net percentage of sales or a fixed amount. For a team like Pitt, they probably bring in about $10M per year from this, so that’s a grand total of $55M from these two revenue sources. Then they have the costs of game day employees (ushers, gate agents, ticket agents, security, janitors, etc) to run the stadium each game, not to mention the electric bill! So there is no way Pitt’s game day revenue covers the team’s payroll. They are dependent on the TV revenue to cover the sizable gap here.
Again, I am not defending Nutting and his lack of spending, but these teams are not pocketing $100’s of millions per year; far from it.
larkraxm
MLB teams receive extra money in addition to the television deals as a result of revenue sharing. Each team receives 48% of their revenue as a pool, which is then divided evenly (3.3%) between the teams. Revenue sharing is distributed to teams, resulting in more than $110 million in revenue. Pirate’s estimated final 2022 Payroll: $59M
Yankee Clipper
Dorothy, according to the media they do. I assume it would’ve been refuted if that article was inaccurate. I can’t attest to whether or not it covers that firsthand, but it reportedly does. This is not the only news source that reports it was covered by those sales either.
post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2022/04/10/pirates…
JoeBrady
According to Forbes, the Pirates operating income was $64M in 2021. So that is presumably before interest, if any. That’s not a huge profit from the return on investment perspective.
If you were going to invest $100,000 to open a diner, would you be happy making $5,000 a year on your investment?
Yankee Clipper
Joe, that’s incredibly deceiving though. You’re basing it solely on “operating income” without knowing how that’s defined or acquired (which monies are within that umbrella). I believe that’s the amount from their tickets/concessions which aligns with PSA( ?) article citing similar numbers. That’s also conveniently not including the TV revenue, merchandise revenue splits, and revenue sharing (which the latter *may be included in that).
larkraxm
Depends. What kind of diner?!
YourDreamGM
Pirates max yearly payroll is 130 million. Similar markets aren’t spending beyond that. Pirates have spent 100 million 3 years. 80 others. I have followed them closely since 2012 and they have always spent when needed. Not many complaints from me. Under 70 million when rebuilding and 100 to 130 when contending is the standard for small markets. Poor gm is why they failed. Under this ownership I can’t remember them losing a single player because they couldn’t or wouldn’t afford them. Many free agents don’t want to call me to Pittsburgh or would demand much more money. This year the addressed every single need and I didn’t see much better options. A+ off-season
Clepto_
False. 100%. Ticket and food cost do NOT cover the payroll of last years team. Do the math. Go find the average price index and multiply it by the attendence.
Make sure you factor in concessions are revenue, not profit.
I love the all-too-common big market assumption that tickets and concessions cover player salaries and tv money is nearly 100% profit. I guess the cost of equipment, FO staff, taxes, operating international development camps, scouts, paying MiLB players and staffs, player and staff per diems, travel expense, amateur draft money, international signing bonuses, spring training facility operating costs, payroll taxes, revenue contributions to MLB general funds, and yes, some component of profit comes from parking revenues.
Maybe it over-priced NY its true, but 80% of the other markets, its not.
Yankee Clipper
It’s reported and detailed in their own market’s news source (as well as others). It’s not my assumption. I provided the link with it.
You guys are simply denying it based on your own assumptions while saying my statement based on sources is an assumption. I’d give more weight to sources information than personal opinion.
Clepto_
Go do the math. You havent done it. Simple multiplication of well researched facts. Then compare. You can cite whoever you want, your assumption is still an assumption and its 100% wrong.
However, even if tickets/concessions covered payroll, you missed the main point many of the fans of big market teams do or chose to ignore. There are large, significant expenses to a baseball operation than player salaries. And I dare say, these expense for a smaller market are higher raw dollars and higher percent of revenue than NY.
Dorothy was spot on. Its well documented by the real sports writers of baseball. At best, the Pirates are capable of a max $125-$135M payroll year in and year out. And in 1 aspect, I agree with you: irritates me to no end to watch a loser like Josh VanMeter walk onto that field with a $60M payroll. However, $125M vs $350M+ of Mets and Dodgers and you want to argue a level playing field??? GTHOH.
Yankee Clipper
Provide a link. I’ve done so. You can’t say facts written are assumptions while you say there are “sports writers” that say otherwise. It’s disingenuous. Plus you’ve glossed over the fact that the Ya Kees are forced to share half their revenue!
I don’t mind discussing it. I value your opinion and respect it. But I’m not going to acknowledge your opinion as more factual than an objective neutral report (several, actually) that conflict with your claims.
I have no problem being wrong, but prove it. Everything I have seen says otherwise. And I don’t care if they spend $350MM. They still have to play the games and haven’t won anything. So, forgive me if I don’t take a random post from an anonymous “Dorothy” to convince me that actual reporters are wrong.
Also, the SD Padres are the fourth smallest market in baseball (26/30 teams) and they have no problem keeping up. Pirates have a much larger market (#22) and they can’t? So the Padres are operating at substantial losses each season? No – not happening. You’re looking for a reason to blame winners when the blame should go right to those who pick losing instead.
joew
yankees pay 250m in revenue sharing? i’d be rather upset too.
Yankee Clipper
JoeW:
A) You’ve apparently *not* read the thread all the way through. It’s okay.
B) You’re number of $250MM is a guess, presumably? Otherwise, where did that come from?
C) Amswer this: Why do teams that are reinvesting like eh they make into their own team/product penalized for doing just that, while teams that refuse to spend of their volition are not punished in any way, but permitted to operate as they pleases, despite its resounding negative impact on competition?
There’s $11.6B in MLB revenue that gets divided up amongst the teams. Do you really think the Pirates only get $100MM of that?
joew
A. fair. I saw, they pay half their revenue and that’s it from the thread
B. based on their revenue
C. Most “poor” teams do reinvest. Why the pirates are not at the bottom of estimated worth despite being one of the smaller markets.
that 11b number in revenue is total for the mlb teams. with an average of around 350-400m revenue per team. Yankees were well over 500m meanwhile the pirates are around 250m. Ball parking numbers from a skim search on duck duck go and memory.. actual numbers are probably a bit skewed depending on who you talk to since there are a bunch of estimates involved 🙂
Yankee Clipper
JoeW:
Okay, but if you check I bet that total revenue number includes the National/local TV deals too, so it’s less.
Either way, here are two articles that detail the 48% (and T.V monies) that get shared/split and then dispersed among the teams, player retirements, etc. it’s for your reference so it’s clear which number I’m referring to… Hopefully you find it informative, but I think it’ll clarify my response above.
dodgerblue.com/mlb-teams-receive-at-least-100-mill…
cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-lockout-three-reasons-w…
Let me know what you think…
larkraxm
Poor MLB owners :(. I’ll bet if they want to sell, they won’t find any takers because of how hard it is to be an MLB owner these days. We should start a go fund me for these poor souls. Forget Shriner’s Hospital! Small market MLB owners are practically starving to death!
joew
@Yankee clipper that second one was very interesting. In the end it is less than 48% in the net. lower than i thought it would be.
too much running around in the system to get to the final number Soft caps and floor with heavy penalties for repeat offenders with a less complicated sharing system that is less of a revenue impact on larger market teams (given the cap) seems like a better way to go.
I do like the proposal they have near the end of linking the sharing to performance rather than where the sharing money is spent… even if i agree if spending on development is acceptable. If that is working for your team performance then great, if it isn’t you get penalized. Problem with that for those teams is it can take quite a while to realize that performance increase if it even happens at all.
but you know, i’m not an accounting/legal expert.. but i did stay at a holiday express a couple times so i’m clearly qualified lol
Yankee Clipper
Haha! Yeah, JoeW I also like the performance link as well. Something to incentivize the teams to compete rather than just letting it go as it is now. I completely agree, man, however I *did not* stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
YankeesBleacherCreature
@TTO Meeting in the middle would still mean he’s underpaid in today’s market.
$100M minus $6.75M ’23 salary is $93.25M. Another career avg. year and he come close to $15M in ’24 arb salary. $93.25M minus $15M is $78M. You really think he’ll sign for $78/4 as a 30 y.o. FA? Maybe with an opt-out when he’s 31.
He’s already requested a trade and $126M would be the starting point of negotiations.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Correction: Reynolds will be a FA in ’25 as a 31 y.o. The proposed $100M deal remains light.
TrillionaireTeamOperator
I acknowledged it’d be an underpay either way, but at least not an insult of an offer. Also I stated that it’d be in new money, so if he signed the deal, it’d be 3 years/$31.25M in pre-free agency and 5/$97.5M in free agency money, possibly plus the buyout on an option. So I guess the guarantee would be 8 years/$131.25M and it could turn into 9 years/$155.25M I guess?
All of it is an under pay, but it’s Pittsburgh. They don’t do market value, in most cases (with some rare exceptions, like an extra year of A.J. Burnett, of all people…).
The Yankees or the Dodgers or the Astros or the Red Sox or the Mets, etc. etc. offering 8 years/$131.25M at this stage would be clear team friendly offer of one in the hand being better than two in the bush, but coming from the Pirates, it’d actually be a pretty substantial, respectful offer.
Plus, considering that Reynold’s counter offer was around $120M over 6 years, he’d absolutely accept that kind of deal.
I’d be genuinely shocked if he gets more than 5 years/$160M or so on the open market in a best case scenario, which would still equal an 8 year deal starting from 2023 going forward, so he’d only be leaving around $35M or so on the table if he signed the deal I proposed- an amount of money that is a big deal to leave on the table, but worth giving up the potential but not guaranteed for in exchange for a guarantee of the lesser total.
Mendoza Line 215
Market value is determined by the winning offers of the eight large market teams.
Small markets teams would be killed financially competing unless they are owned by Steve Cohen or John Middleton or Mike Ilitch.
YourDreamGM
His current aav is irrelevant. Only thing that matters is getting enough guaranteed money to justify avoiding the risk of waiting 3 years and being a free agent at 31 years old. 12 might be more than he gets in 2024 and not drastically less than when he will get in 2025. He won’t get 12 million in 2026 27 28 if he doesn’t stay healthy and productive.
JoeBrady
to justify avoiding the risk of waiting 3 years and being a free agent at 31 years old.
===========================
So many people don’t understand this part. The further away you are from free agency, the higher the discount the player needs to take. If the correct number for non-arb years is $100M/5, then why would the team offer that to you now? If you aren’t discounting that number, then the team is better off waiting until you finish your ontrol years.
This one belongs to the Reds
Unfortunately with the current revenue disparity, small market teams are reluctant to give more than $20 million AAV contracts because too many have gotten burned on the back end to the extent it handicaps them. While the Yankees, Mets and Dodgers can write off a mistake because local TV money covers the salaries pretty much, a small market team is hamstrung. This is why these guys are traded with two years of control left because that’s when they get max return from the large market team that deals for them.
This is why small market fans don’t show up unless they happen to hit gold in that 3-4 year window the prospects come together before they have to blow it up and start over again.
MLB whose HQ is on NY, is very short sighted and that is killing the game outside the large markets. But as with most corporations and politicians, as long as they get theirs, right?
KermitJagger
I like it. And if you are the Pirates, front load the hell out of that contract the next few years. Give him 30 mil a year in 2023, 20 in 24 and then 12.5 per year after. Might as well pay the big bucks when payroll is low and then they’ll have the cap room when they are more competitive and will look to start signing a few middle tier FAs.
This one belongs to the Reds
@Kermit, I have said all along small markets should structure their contracts that way but they foolishly do the opposite.
jimmyz
Ke’Bryan Hayes’ contract, the largest the Pirates have ever given, is front loaded so there is hope that this organization or at least just Ben Cherington recognizes this strategy. Problem is you need the player agree to the deal too.
YourDreamGM
Cap room.
This one belongs to the Reds
We wish they had a cap.
But everyone has their own max payroll number depending on what they can afford to spend. No surprise there.
KermitJagger
Yeah I didn’t mean cap, I meant room in their lower budget.
blackstain
way of an under bid for the extension. has to be at least 100 million to 110 million to even be fair. they are better of trading him anyway. they would probably get 3-4 prospects.
YourDreamGM
Murphy is of similar value and it was good enough for him. Not that Reynolds should settle for that but it’s a starting point. I think the years are the issue. Make him say no to 8 years 110 million. 6 years 110 million is a massive overpay.
Rsox
$126 million isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things but i guess it’s considered highway robbery to an organization that took 22 years in between franchise record deals (Jason Kendall $60 million signed in 2000, Ke’Bryan Hayes $70 million signed in 2022)
PiratesFan1981
I think 126 million for 6 years for a defensive lackluster CFer, is crazy high. He should move to the corner OF and boost his stock IF his defense fairs better on the corners. I don’t see him sticking to CF much longer. His offense fairs to a second hole hitter. Decent power, good on base, and above average hitting average. Just his defensive metrics are below average and Pittsburgh values defense over offense. Which traditional team’s value offense more than defense. I think 76 million is a slap in his face. 95 million/5 years with a position change, is fair to him. Reynolds is not a Judge, Trout, or Betts. Maybe equal to Nimmo to some degree. Either way, Reynolds will definitely be leaving town.
Rsox
Thing is Reynolds is playing CF out of necessity. On no other team would he be a Center Fielder
Yankee Clipper
Pirates Fan 1981: If you feel that is crazy high, then I assume (perhaps improperly) that you feel he’s not worth near what they’re asking in a trade return for him as well? Just curious.
mydogcrowder
It’s not what the team wants that adds value. It’s what another team will pay for him. If another team finds him as valuable as Reynolds thinks he is, then Pittsburghs asking price is a good start package wise.
Yankee Clipper
That’s very true also. But, as much as I like Reynolds I fee he’s being a bit overvalued on both sides (with the trade scenarios & if he were to get what he’s asking for extension). I do understand that the market is generally high, so it’s not unreasonable to think he gets even more on the market.
mydogcrowder
I agree clip. I also agree he’s a bit overvalued. Would be worth more if we could see what he could do in the corner OF. I hope he gets traded though, because I do believe he’ll bring back an okay haul for the BUCS.
YourDreamGM
Asking price is too low. Cubs got a top 100 prospect 3 times for 2 month rentals. Pirates asking 2 or even 3 for 3 full years sounds like a bargain.
If the Julio Rodriguez ask was legit well that is ridiculous. But 2 or even 3 non top 10 is at the worst a starting point.
Yankee Clipper
DreamGM: I do think they will net something higher, I’m referring only to what I think his performance is worth in a trade (although I also understand the inherent caveat that his performance is worth whatever a team gives up for him).
YourDreamGM
What do you think of his performance? I have it as 3 years 30 million 800 something ops excellent lf defense passable to slightly below average cf. Switch hitter is nice and solid base runner.
Yankee Clipper
Short-term I could do that, but I’m getting a bit turned around with respect to the numbers, so please forgive me, man. I’m just really tired.
So, to clarify, you’re saying 3 years extended @ $30MM, which would be 6 @ like $135MM or so with arb years?
If so I think that reasonable {given the market}, but solely based on his performance, using your parameters,, I have him closer to $20MM / year AAV for 6 (including arb years).
I hope I didn’t muddy the waters too much with that… also to clarify, I really like Reynolds and I’d love him as a LF on the Yankees.
YourDreamGM
Any team trading for him will have him of they choose for 3 years and 30 million or so. Maybe 35 max. He will then be a just turned 31 year old free agent.
Ideally I would have traded him already. Can’t fault teams for not paying the cost. 6 years 75 mil is fine. Even go 85. 7 95 or 8 110 would work for me. I wouldn’t want to go much more. It’s an extension. Not free agency.
21Clemente21
Reynoldswood hit big time in Yankee stadium versus the Pirates field, he’s not undervalued if you look at it that he will play in the Yankee stadium. Once he’s protected in the lineup I would think that rental would hit ever bit of 325 and hit 30 to 35 home runs annually
Yankee Clipper
That’s a fair point, Clemente.
PiratesFan1981
@Yankee Clipper Their asking price is pretty fair to the market price. Regardless of his defense in CF, he is controlled for 3 more years. This gives the Pirates “relevance” to their asking price. I think 2 top 100 prospect (one in top 15) and another prospect or draft pick (3rd round) would be fair for 3 years of Reynolds.
Mendoza Line 215
21-I agree that the home runs could appreciably increase but not the batting average.
larkraxm
The Yankees seem to think that the Pirates are overvaluing Reynolds…that’s why he is still a Pirate.
Mendoza Line 215
Lark-Cherington is smart enough to know that prospects are just suspects until they have proven beyond much doubt that they will be ML players.
He needs to get a number of them back as the pitchers almost always get hurt and the position players even when highly rated do not make any all star teams.
Plus Reynolds is the Pirates best player with years of control.
larkraxm
Copy. I understand the Pirate’s position. The Yankees evidently don’t think their ask is value for Reynolds. That is why there has been no deal. Reynolds is a nice player, but I don’t think he is worth a Juan Soto type haul. Apparently the other teams in the league feel the same way because he is still a Pirate.
PiratesFan1981
Every team bulks at any player with 3 years of control regardless of their value. I wouldn’t undermine Reynolds because any organization would want him in their team. Maybe they’re gun shy because they have other issues and concerns on the roster. Yankees, Phillies, Mets, and Cardinals who have expressed interest in Reynolds are in need of pitching of some sorts. Above teams and other clubs have positional needs besides OF. I think many clubs needs are too many and a guy’s Pirates are wanting, are probably in that other teams plans for the upcoming season. I don’t think their demands are too high. I just think clubs have several holes in their roster and can’t afford to lose prospects as those holes are likely to go to those prospects.
If a team later on during spring training feels Reynolds is the answer, they will pick up the phone and call Pittsburgh. Work 48 hours through the night to make a deal before someone else jumps in. The bigger trades ALWAYS happens during Spring Training when players go down, prospect not showing progress, or they have too many options in one area and could afford to let one go for Reynolds. Like the old saying goes, “It is not over until the fat lady sings”.
larkraxm
I agree with everything that you are saying, but still don’t think Reynolds demands a Soto type emptying of the farm system. Every team would like to have Reynolds, no team seems eager to meet the Pirate’s prospect demands.
Yankee Clipper
Lark: It was reported that the Pirates asked for Volpe & Dominguez (+) for Reynolds, which is awfully high. I agree with your position overall.
mydogcrowder
PF1981, this. Completely agree. I think no more then 92 mil with a small signing bonus. But Reynolds is asking way to much in my opinion.
Play the Game
Get out of Pittsburgh they are a joke.
Dorothy_Mantooth
Only if they can take the stadium with them. PNC is a top 3 park in all of baseball. It’s such a shame they can’t draw enough fans there to justify spending more on the team.
YourDreamGM
1.5 million is a lot when you know for certain the team is going to lose 100 games. No young exciting talent will see the majors until September. Anyone doing well will be traded in July. Any key player injured will be replaced but whoever the latest dfa was.
SweetBabyRayKingsThickThighs
No reason to extend him. He’ll hit free agency in his 30s and his defense will eventually move him to the corners. Trade him at the deadline or next offseason for some prospects.
YourDreamGM
Always extend for the right price.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Button 7/100, McMahon and K. Marte around 70.
Pirates offer seems like a fair opener, Reynolds a fair counter. Pre-Nimmo, I would say six years 96 million but now maybe five years 100 million.
Tigers3232
I would think most GMs will dismiss Nimmo contract as an overpay, opposed to setting the market. Obviously agents will b trying to set market with it. Just seems like a ridiculous contract given his inability to stay on the field.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Button is Buxton
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
There are probably 8 teams who would go 8yr/130+ on Reynolds considering current trends..and 3-4 more who would go something like 10yr/200m if he was a FA now..be real..the market is what the market dictates..
bmcferren
everyone is waiting for Kim to finish fauning over Eury
Edub23
Probably be in Dodger Blue at the trade deadline playing next to Mookie. Despite all the talent on the Dodgers roster and farm, they don’t have a CF. Not a big CF to cover and they will pay up for his bat…
Mookie, Reynolds, Freeman, W Smith, Muncy, JD Martinez, C Taylor, Lux, Vargas would be a strong lineup.
bmcferren
str8 up for Urias if yinz want a deal
mydogcrowder
I’m getting old, I literally have no idea what you just said bmc.
Mendoza Line 215
Dog-The first word is phonetic for straight,and yinz is short for yinzer which is the term used for Pittsburghers who use yinz for the plural you.
Got it?
Jaysfan1981
Urias is a FA next year I believe and might very well command a 200 million plus contract
Nooooooooo waaaaaay Pittsburgh wants any part of that trade
Unless they know SD or AZ is lined up to pay premium prospects for Urias because LA wouldn’t trade him there
Don’t see that happening
Jaysfan1981
Still think the Jays need to get Reynolds as their final piece
He can play LF, Varsho to CF, Kiermier gets 4th OF and late inning RF to replace Springer.
Merrifield becomes the starting 2B, even tho I think Biggio deserves one last shot at it and will surprise alot of folks this year.
His bat lengthens the lineup, being a switch hitter means no platoon partner needed, freeing up more roster space.
Reynolds for Barriera / Robberse / Martinez
CaptainJudge99
@Jaysfan1981- Excellent point that you made here. I think there are a few major teams out there that are looking at Bryan Reynolds as “their last or final piece”. Shocked the Rangers haven’t acquired Reynolds considering they have the young pitching that Pittsburgh craves. Owen White, Brock Porter, Kumar Rocker, and Cole Winn. No reason why the Pirates can’t get at least two of those pitchers from Texas, with a couple of position players for Mr. Reynolds.
Yankee Clipper
Jays: I also agree with you. As I posted already, the Jays have had an underrated offseason, imho. They made key acquisitions of players that several teams (specifically the Yankees) were interested in. They are concerningly good…
And, with the Vlad / Manoa anti-Yankees statements, it’ll be an exciting ALE rivalry!
Look forward to some good back and forth banter with you this year…But to your Reynolds point, I feel he does exactly the same for the Yankees (and other teams as Cap99 wrote), which is why Pitt is asking for the moon.
Treehouse22
Reynolds wants out. If I’m Ben, I’d keep the young man until July 31, 2025 and then get a couple of prospects for him. He’ll get $11-12 mil in 2024 and $15-16 mil in 2025 through arbitration, then he can get the big money contract from the Yankees in his age 31 season in 2026. Everybody wins.
YourDreamGM
Ben has no say. Until he gets a offer that is worthy.
Treehouse22
No say? Let’s see here. Reynolds won’t get traded unless Ben says so (meaning an acceptable offer is made and Ben says okay). Reynolds won’t get signed to an extension unless Ben makes an acceptable offer (which is Ben saying, here is what we’ll give you, take it or leave it). Ben can certainly choose to trade Reynolds at the 2025 trade deadline, and he’d likely get a couple of prospects (which seems like the best alternative, at this point, since the two sides are $50 mil apart on an extension). Listen, Reynolds is the Pirates’ best player and I love the guy and want him signed to an extension, but the Pirates hold all the cards right now. He can’t go anywhere until 2026, unless the Pirates choose to move him. Meanwhile, they’re smart to keep on listening to trade offers until they get the one they want. If they don’t get that offer, then they get to keep Reynolds. I’d rather have him than a prospect. He’ll make just north of $30 mil for the 2023-2025 seasons. Not bad for a very good, not great, player.
Treehouse22
The Pirates let both McCutchen and Marte walk after their age 30 seasons, and both of those guys were better than this young man. If he’s below average in CF now, wait till you see him at age 33-35.
Jaysfan1981
Alot of teams are smarter than you give them credit for.
Everyone knows he’s just passable at best in CF, he’ll get 3-5 more years there (Unless he stinks) then move to a corner spot. Unless his next team already has a CF or CF of the future
The Jays just did the same thing with Springer. From the minute he signed, every pundit and media outlet predicted he’d be in a corner spot by 2023.
He’s currently the RF, with 3 other people ahead of him on the CF depth chart.
CleaverGreene
Except, the Jays paid Springer CF money to be a RF.
YourDreamGM
They weren’t better or much better and older.
jimmyz
The Pirates didn’t let either of Marte or McCutchen walk, both were traded. Reynolds was part of the McCutchen trade along with Kyle Crick and Marte trade brought back Liover Peguero and Brennan Malone.
Treehouse22
Thanks, Jimmy. Yeah I’m aware that they were traded. I mischaracterized that as letting them walk. My point is that those two guys were better players and the Pirates moved on from them at age 30. They got to go elsewhere and make the big money, because the Pirates don’t hand out mega contracts, especially to guys in their 30’s. Reynolds can do that, too. I hope he signs a sensible extension, because he’s a very good player. If not, I hope we keep him until the trade deadline in 2025. I’d like 2.67 more years of this guys’ skillset. He definitely makes the Pirates better. He’s very good (not great, though).
Pens20
This man deserves at least 6 yrs 115 million damn he brings u fans money he’s ur best damn player stopped screwing the fan base nutting serious take a damn chance on a person for once!
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
As a free agent, yes – as a guy with 3 years until free agency, not even close
The same could be said about the Angels “only” paying Ohtani 30 million this year, which is clearly way way more of a raise than he (or anyone) would get in arb of 25.5 million. People need to understand how arb works before making unnecessarily bold statements like this.
Jaysfan1981
Understanding how arbitration works is fundamental in understanding why he’s actually worth what OP stated
Arbitration is a way to artificially keep salaries from getting ridiculously out of hand prior to FA.
Pens is speaking from the fans perspective, he wants his owner to forgo the savings of the next 2 years to lock in a player their franchise deems worthy and want to cheer for.
It’s a trade off Nutting isn’t prepared to make. He’ll squeeze the monetary value out of Reynolds and trade him for a few freshly drafted kids with potential and a few lotto tickets.
I understand Pens frustration as a Jays fan and dealing with the Yankees and Redsox my entire life. When the Jays bought back to back WS in the 90s it was fantastic. Watching them let players like Shawn Green walk away afterwards was infuriating.
For the last few years, knowing my ownership has the capacity to outspend even Cohen but still not being a top 3 or 5 team makes me a little upset
Watching them get into luxury tax territory, spend on Green who might not even pitch this year, gives me hope
I fell bad for Pens20. You should too.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
I do understand that for sure. Texas did let CJ Wilson and Josh Hamilton walk, and they were said to be in on Greinke that 2012-13 offseason and later Ohtani, Rendon, Arenado, Suzuki, Senga, Kershaw (at least 3 different offseasons, including the last 2), etc. Remember, the spending has only been recent, except for some Choo/Fielder/Hamels stuff, though they got 6 million per year on Fielder’s deal and Hamels came with cash + Harrison’s salary getting dumped. This is a team that had a bottom 3ish payroll in 2010. I get it. I have been a fan since then. They went bankrupt around this time. However, I don’t like the idea of blowing money. I was thinking signing deGrom for 5 years and a base of 50 million with 250 million in incentives would make sense (40 for 200 innings marginally and 10 for Cy Young voting each year), but even I have issues with blowing money on Semien, Gray, and, to a much much lesser extent, Evoldi with no left fielder. This extension here would still overcompensate him for his free agent years, and his age isn’t quite helping. Neither is his defensive WAR, which teams value much more now than before. I completely agree that 8 years and 126 would be a great deal, but just not that over 6 years.
Jaysfan1981
@deGrom
I hear what you’re saying. But you also have an owner right now willing to just blow money like it’s fun tickets that have no other value
Spending on Marcus and Corey to the extent the Rangers did probably wasn’t the best allocation of future resources. But at least they’re trying.
Nutting isn’t trying. I don’t know when Cherrington even took the GM spot there. It’s like taking a lamb to the slaughter, he’ll be fired before his contracts up, they’ll say he was the reason. He didn’t get enough value in trades or contracts and didn’t attract the right FA.
Manfred should know that having every team sellout, like the NFL, having massive TV deals like the NFL, having Tailgates and Merchandise sales like crazy, is the best way to Monitize your business
Only way fans will buy in , in every city. Is if they actually have a chance.
Pittsburgh needs a new Owner, there needs to be a reduced schedule probably contraction of a few teams (looking at you Oakland and Tampa, maybe even a Cincinnati relocate to Montreal) there needs to be 8 teams per league making the playoffs to keep salaries up but revenues piling in.
Maybe I’m just a drunk idiot, maybe I’m a genius, maybe im onto something that needs tweaks
The people here will decide
mydogcrowder
Correct degrom. And they think he deserves market value like what? No, sit down. Any player that signs a lengthy deal in arb knows it’s because you can get hurt before you hit FA. It’s for stability in your pocket. You’re set for life. But I will say Reynolds is pretty old as a super 2. He also can’t play center much longer so his value is slowly plummeting in my eyes even if it’s just a little.
KermitJagger
Yeah I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to understand. He’s not a FA so he won’t be getting FA money in an extension.
YourDreamGM
He doesn’t bring much money. 1 to 1.5 million fans will show up no matter who the players are.
waldfee
Reynolds’ current market value stands at $156M/8 years, with an AA of $19.5M. Considering the fact that Reynold is 28 years of age, Pittsburgh is basically trying to buy out the rest of his career with an insulting lowball offer that includes a shorter term at 35 percent under market value.(AA $19.5M vs. $12.7M).
Only a fool would even consider the Pirates’ proposal. Less money in order to spend the rest of one’s productive years with a cheap garbage franchise that doesn’t go anywhere… yeah, sure sounds enticing.
Sooner or later the Pirates will have to give in to Reynolds’ trade request or he’ll eventually walk for nothing.
mydogcrowder
So what happens if he gets hurt next year and hits FA as a guy who hasn’t hit in 2 years? Where’s his market value then? What the BUCS are offering him is security and to know he’ll be set for life.
Yankee Clipper
It’s really no different than Acuna/Albies/Murphy/Olsen, etc…
Players sign for a “steal,” or whatever, all the time to secure a decent contract (relatively speaking), rather than hedging their bets on maintaining health & performance, and hitting the market in their 30s, after being “underpaid” in their arb years.
Jaysfan1981
@clipper
I guess it’s all relative
If you’re a draftee who receives a 7 figure bonus. Even an exact 1 million. Assuming you get to keep half, and invest that alone smartly for 10% compounding every year. That’s enough for you to retire on even if you never make it to the show.
Most players aren’t smart. So there’s that!!!
But I digress, point being. Someone who’s made it to a Reynolds point of MLB career, knowing he’s looking at 8 figures even through the ARB process, has to think…… “well I guess I can afford to at least gamble on myself at this point”.
Even if he made a Bauer type statement saying he’ll go year to year would probably get him 3 or 4 25-30 million 1 year contracts if he just put up his career norms minus 5%
Why would he sacrifice 6 years of his life as a Pirate knowing their common practice and his experience if he can get that betting on himself for 3 somewhere else. Bedard is a Pittsburgh native, he has a reason to stay and sign a discount long term. Reynolds not so much
I’m sure if TO got to draft Votto he’d probably be a Jays lifer like he is a Reds lifer, but probably given Toronto a bigger discount.
Some guys like Albies grew up dirt poor and 50 million to them is generational money.
Some guys like Murphy are just humble and happy to contribute by signing for amazing money instead of holding out for an extra year or a few extra millions
It’s why I think the Jays are likely to trade Bichette in the next 2 years, depending on how they do, if WS is actually possible, they might let him walk with a QO. If things go bad i can see them just trading him next off-season knowing his contract is going to be difficult.
Vlads getting the Bag tho. 350. 375. 400 maybe if they wait much longer and he hits 60 next
Yankee Clipper
Jays1981: First, I enjoy reading your posts – even when we see things from a different perspective. You bring informed opinions to the conversation and like to have thorough discussions.
Second, I do agree with just about everything you wrote. I guess my perspective on this isn’t whether or not I think he will bet on himself as that wouldn’t surprise me either. I was referring more to the Pirates offer and his current expectations for a higher amount for an extension. Given the current market, I totally get why he is valuing himself higher, I just don’t blame the Pirates for not overextending.
Honestly, if he chooses to wait out the market and bet on himself in FA I don’t see that as a wrong choice, so to speak, just a different one. I believe I would choose to take the offer for financial security; but I readily admit that I am also financially risk-averse.
Jaysfan1981
@Clipper
That’s a fair and valid point. Also why I started my point suggesting it’s all subjective to the person and player
I appreciate the sentiment. You’re also one of the people I throughly enjoy reading their opinion and insights here.
I hope we get an exciting and thrilling year of Baseball in 2023.
May the Best Team win the AL East!!
Yankee Clipper
Yes sir! Well, I picked the Jays to win the division last year, and obviously they fell short. But, I think many have overlooked the improvements they made this offseason (and acquiring Merrifield), which frankly concern me (from a competition perspective). They’re going to be good – really good.
Jaysfan1981
I hate giving credit to the Yankees, but even with holes in LF and potentially 3B and SS. Your rotation is going to keep you in it all year and perhaps through the playoffs. It’s not like you’ve got scrubs wearing pinstripes.
Best of luck. I mean that. Baseball is always more fun when its competitive. Gotta beat the best to be the best.
YourDreamGM
Only a poorly ran team would give him 156 million. Even that is a stretch.
Jaysfan1981
@GM.
How is 8 @ under 20 poor management for Reynolds if he’s above average at both corners and at the plate plus can play CF in an emergency 4 plus years down the road in case of injury?
In 8 years it feels like utility guys will command 19 per year, long relief guys who moonlight as the 5th starter might get 19 million on 3 year deals
If that’s what Reynolds wants, it wouldn’t stop a team like Toronto from giving Chapman the same,Guerrero 350 and Manoah 250 over a decade
In a decade those will all be bargains at the rate salaries are going
It almost seems like a benefit for teams to start locking up 26 year Olds to decade long deals instead of paying 31 year Olds 7 years for 3 years of actual production
YourDreamGM
It’s 5 for 126. 25 mil a year. Already have him for 3 years 10 mil aav. Do I want to spend 25 mil a year for a early to mid 30s corner outfielder? A lot can happen in 3 years. For less money I could have locked up 2 of Harris Murphy Hayes etc. That sounds much better to me.
Jaysfan1981
If you told me today, Toronto could trade for Reynolds, every player would bust, I’d keep him for 8 @ 156 regardless of Arb or FA status. I’d do that trade every time.
Reynolds is better than Gurriel Jr in LF. Fans in Toronto would give him 8/156. Teoscar would probably struggle to get 8 years in FA but would probably get 5/126 easily.
Both those guys got traded. If Reynolds is better (all around. Not in every specific area) why wouldn’t you want him around at a cost controlled 8/156?
Time value of money, if things project to continually increase, lock in known values immediately
YourDreamGM
Because I could extend 2 players who are just as good for 156 mil. I could replace Reynolds after free agency for less money. I could see how he does this year and probably still get him to sign a extension for that amount. Pirates lost 1 trade in 10 years. Lost zero when selling. Any team trading for Reynolds is highly likely to pay a painful price.
Jaysfan1981
So would you take Barriera/Robberse/Martinez for Reynolds or hold out for better?
YourDreamGM
Wait for better. Could get similar to that package in 2024. Barriera would be a target for me. Rather have him than Martinez. Rather have Juenger than Robberse. If you are willing to include Tiedemann I think we have a foundation to have Reynolds as a jay for spring training.
YourDreamGM
Tiedemann pretty much has to be included. You can’t trade a player of that caliber and not receive a single top 100 prospect or good mlb player. Fans would be furious and it would get a gm fired fast if it didn’t work out. If a universal top prospect fails well it happens. Might buy you another year of employment.
Jaysfan1981
Fair point.
My thoughts,
Tiedemann is not available, period.
I understand trades have to hurt, but at 19 with his progression!! He’s what Gore should have been. He’s only available for the top tier trade. Reynolds is only available because of contract talks. Not because he’s so good he requires a trade before equity can’t be obtained
With that understanding, Barriera is supposed to be equal to or better than Tiedemann, just a year or two behind. Which lines up better with Pittsburghs contention window.
Robberse is another pitcher that I believe Pittsburgh is looking for, but if Juenger is more your flavor so be it.
If trades have to hurt, Martinez was compared to Beltre since his inception in the ORG. If worst case he’s a low average high slugging 2B for a decade, that’s a pretty decent player(see Semien). High end he figures it out, plays good D at SS and gets you another 5 prospects in 6 or 7 years
I think those 3, or your counter of Juenger is appropriate and something I’d be willing to do as a Jays fan
YourDreamGM
You aren’t going to make it as a gm. Reynolds has nearly twice the value of Tiedemann. You should have accepted that before I got sober. Toronto wouldn’t even call Pittsburgh without knowing he would be the headliner.
Reynolds was available well before contract talks failed. With smart teams in a small market every player is always available.
Martinez is a option. You have to love his power. Other areas I have concerns. I don’t value him as your 2nd best prospect so if you do then take him out of the mix.
I gotta go give Cashman a call. Maybe he thinks Reynolds is worth at least 1 top 100 prospect.
Treehouse22
@DreamGM – This is your best, most succinct, most logical post on this matter. The Bucs already get to keep Reynolds for an AAV of $10-12 mil thru his age 30 season (2025). There is no reason to double that, just to keep him into his declining years. Let some other team do that. Just get what you can for him at the 2025 trade deadline. He may regret not taking the $76 mil.
Mendoza Line 215
Dream- Six years $100 M is fair.It buys out his one year contract and two years arbitration and gives him $20 M for his three free agent years.
If he is realistic it is fair.If he does not want to commit to Pittsburgh or knows he will not get a big contract after that he will decline.
As in a previous post of mine the Pirates are waiting to see how their other options in the outfield turn out.
MLBTR gets a lot of responses for these Brian Reynolds articles.It is that time of year.I had just remarked to myself yesterday that I had not seen one in a couple of weeks.
YourDreamGM
Mendoza got Reynolds on the mind. Article is click bait. I heard like a week or two ago it was 6 for 76. No idea why Heyman is still writing about it. This mlbtr write up was long due. They are anxiously waiting for the next slightest tid bit of rumor news to do the same article yet again. He should get closer to 30 mil not 40. If I was him I would want 8 years not 6. If I was pirates I wouldn’t pay him 100 for 6. Might be worth it but they can only extend so many people at those prices. Rather them extend 2 younger cheaper guys.
Mendoza Line 215
Mendoza does not have Reynolds on his mind.Ann Margret,Raquel Welch,and Jane Fonda-Maybe.
Mendoza Line 215
It amazes me how many posters post on these Reynolds articles,including you Dream GM.The Pirates do not get all that many articles generally.The number of posters rank with articles on some of the bigger market teams.Maybe that is why we see so many on Reynolds in this down period for baseball.
This theme is like the movie Groundhog Day,both before and after this year’s real Groundhog Day.Who knows,maybe next year too.
YourDreamGM
No one should be commenting on any site. It’s a waste of life. When I have absolutely nothing better to do I get on here. No better story to be on. I know all my favs like clipper corn and Mendoza will be here.
Mendoza Line 215
Dream-Actually I feel about the same way that you do for the most part with some differences.
I actually enjoy discourse with many posters.
It is sort of like the bar Cheers to me without the alcohol.
That is actually not a small thing.
I also get paid by MLBTR to eradicate the worst trolls.
There are plenty when your team has been the worst in all of MLB for 3 1/2 years.
But there are actually a lot of very fine posters,many from different teams,who have different slants.
It also helps to keep me attuned to the sport that we all love and our favorite team or teams.
I was off for about ten days because of all the glitches with the site and my I pad,but I cannot help myself.
But who else can I correspond with who remembers Manny Mota and Jerry Lynch?
Stay out of trouble young man.
tonyinsingapore
Confused – the Pirates want to pay Reynolds less that Castellanos but want a Juan Soto return in a trade?
YourDreamGM
You don’t sound confused to me. That sounds right.
Samuel
tonyinsingapore;
You’re very confused…..
Castellanos had his 6 years in and was a free agent.
tonyinsingapore
Confused – the Pirates want to pay Reynolds less than Castellanos, but want a Juan Soto return in a trade?
Big whiffa
Just shows they have absolutely no clue what they are doing. Missing out on partnering w Miami showed the world that the are still inept
Samuel
It’s the posters here that “have no clue what they’re doing”….or in this case – writing.
Many need to read the article. At the time of negotiations Reynolds was under control for 4 years. He wasn’t a free agent.
From the article:
“Sean Murphy, who’s also 28 and in the same service bucket, inked a six-year, $73MM extension with the Braves in December. Pittsburgh’s offer was right in that range, making for an interesting comparison point.”
So the Braves extended 3 years after Murphy’s free agency.
And you kids’ think a guy the same age with the same amount of control playing CF that belongs in LF is worth 65% more money (what his agents are asking for) than a catcher handling a pitching staff 150 games a year because he gets on base 2-3 more times a week?
It’s getting sillier and sillier here by the day. I now understand why studies the past few years of college students show that most think that upon graduation they’ll be starting at over $100k a year when they go to work.
Reynolds wants off the rebuilding Pirates. I don’t blame him. This is just the argument to demand a trade.
Big whiffa
Lol. Are you actually defending the pirates or do u just come here to argue?
JoeBrady
Samuel is right. Too many folks in here look at Reynolds like he was a free agent. With three years of control left, he’s going to get a much lower offer than if he were a FA.
It’s not that complicate. His three years of control can be calculated fairly close. The you have to decide how much to pay a 32 year old with Reynolds skills. Would you pay him $100M/5, to age 36? If so, take that $100M and apply a 3-year injury discount. Say that’s $80M. Then the offer to Reynolds should be ~ $130M/8, including this year.
Mendoza Line 215
Joe- What you and Samuel said makes logical sense but that does not compute with every poster on this site.
PaulyMidwest
Totally agree with Clip that 100 mil is the most he should get. I think Pittsburgh would be dumb not to sign him cuz they are never gonna get the haul they are asking for for him. 126 is crazy for him..90 to 100 would be it.
YourDreamGM
They should be able to get a great return for him. Still plenty of time.
PaulyMidwest
Not the haul they are asking for..a decent return yes if they lower their asking price.
Domingo111
The Pirates are clearly not getting what they are looking for, reports are they are looking for like a top10 overall prospect and they are not getting that.
I think realistic is 2 lower level top100 (75-100) prospects and a “lottery ticket” kind of young guy or one guy in the 50 range and one or two lower ranked prospects.
But when reports are that they are looking for Julio Rodriguez last year (or equivalents this year like Jordan walker or andrew painter) they are just not getting that.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Growing weary reading about Reynolds since nothing has changed in his status. Bucs ain’t gonna pay him the $125 million he supposedly is asking for, and the team is still asking a king’s ransom for him in trade talks.
JMHO, but Reynolds is a nice player, but he’s not worth a team ripping apart its farm system to acquire him.
Buc should just trade him for a couple of decent prospects and hope one or more of them play in Pittsburgh one day.
Big whiffa
They could have traded w Miami. Twins got an absolute haul and pirates would have too if they had any clue what so ever how to run a team
Samuel
A rebuilding team should get a pitcher with 2 years of control remaining?
Big whiffa
No they should trade for 17 year olds and 19 years olds like twins did.
And seriously Samuel. How can u look at what the pirates are doing and call that rebuilding !? More like reblowing it again.
Domingo111
Wouldn’t say the twins got a haul, it was basically a 1 to 1 deal Lopez for arraez and a nice throw in with salas.
Salas is a nice prospect but I think that Lopez and salas would be a very bad return for reynolds because they can’t really use Lopez the next two years and while salas is a good prospect he would be like the 8th best prospect for the Pirates so not moving the needle much.
Teams are simply not very willing to deal top prospects. They will trade majors leaguers and solid but not great prospects like salas but rarely that top 20 prospect the Pirates are looking for.
Of course the Pirates could get 3-4 lower rated guys but they already have great depth in the minors, they need that top Guy and they are not getting it.
Big whiffa
Mlbs new rankings aren’t out yet. Stock will be way up on solas. Doubt the other guy will be ranked but he had a solid stat line last season.
Not like it matters as those wouldn’t be the guys traded to get Reynolds. If they’d give that to MN you’d have to expect smtg like mayer and Fulton which would be an absolute haul
nbresnak
Comparing Bryan Reynolds to Sean Murphy, seriously?
Murphy is a solid Catcher but pales in comparison to Reynolds in CF/OF.
Defensive metrics are skewed and completely unreliable. Not sure how that should separate or determine outcomes for either of these players.
Comparing Reynolds with Brandon Nimmo is a possible comparison in players and contracts that should be used in this analysis. Not Sean Murphy, in this avid baseball fans opinion.
Samuel
nbresnak;
1. Defensive and other statistics don’t begin to remotely calculate a catchers worth.
2. There isn’t a competent FO person alive that thinks a CF (which Reynolds is not) is more important to a team than a C.
3. Brandon Nimmo had no more years of control. He was a free agent. I think you need to learn how MLB’s pay scales work.
rocky7
Guess those 2 Murphy Catcher Interference calls in 1 inning (which I don’t think anybody commenting has ever seen) against the Yankees, had any negative impact on his defensive rating right?
Agree, the eval of Murphy is way over the top….Reynolds is hands down the better defensive and offensive ball player and much more valuable to a team.
MarlinsFanBase
I see two elements here that may spell some bad news for Reynolds soon.
1 – Pirates holding out for a huge return while they fail to sign him.
2 – Reynolds refusing to take the money.
When we’ve seen these two things individually, what do we commonly see that screws things up?
Yes, an injury.
We have both occurrences happening here. One injury and both Reynolds and the Pirates have regrets – major regrets.
MarlinsFanBase
Personally, with where the Marlins are right now, I wait to see what Sanchez, de la Cruz, Bleday, Encarnacion, Burdick can do in LF and what Jazz can do in CF.
The Marlins need another potential high-leverage reliever more than they would need Reynolds.
Buuba ho tep
76 million guaranteed is nothing to laugh at…. Guaranteed greed
Old York
Guy is overrated. He’s another Adam Frazier.
joew
Yup one of the best 2nd basemen in the league. definitely over rated.
His salaries generally are near what his skill is.
Old York
That means 2nd base is really weak in the MLB if that is the case.
joew
one bad year vs multiple gold glove candidates at 2nd in recent years….
To be fair though… since he was traded i haven’t seen much of him.
Old York
Adam hasn’t had a decent year since he was traded.
Big whiffa
Pirates are the joke of professional sports. Every move they make hits the scale from terrible to doesn’t move the needle. Johnson and Henry will go down as one of the worst top of draft combos in mlb history.
Pirates have absolutely no clue. MLB needs to hold owners accountable and stop giving teams like Pittsburg a 150 million a year in free hand outs.
Mendoza Line 215
Big whiffa-Your post matched your name.
JoeBrady
Probably not enough information here. Did the Pirate offer include this year’s FA year, or is it two more arb years and then a 4-year extension?
IMO, the extension should include the 2 remaining arb years for $25M, plus an additional 4 years at $20M, for a total of $105M. And TBH, even that sounds a little light. That’s only thru age 33, so there should be no decline.
joew
most likely its a arb buy out plus the remaining 4 years. That is typically how it is done.
joew
If I where the pirates GM (clearly not) I’d do a 6/120 guarantee pretty easy. But i’d probably do it a bit differently…
Front loaded, 25/25/25/15/10/10 + two team options at 15m each with 5m buy outs. Gets him to 120m Guarantee for the 6 and up to 150 if the options are picked up. final three years have performance bonuses, many of which are easily picked up by just being an average player to get him up to 20m the final three years also having the same on the options.
Fair chance the options wouldn’t be picked up and bryan makes the 5M + what ever contract he might be able to sign.
the lower back end also makes a trade easier IF it makes sense at the time.
That seem fair to Bryan. Pirates can afford the front loaded deal and once the newer players hit arb the salary reduces to make up some of the difference.
Defiantly fair to the pirates, but probably more than Ben wants to pay as it hits the payroll some for when he wants to buy players during a run. We know Ben can buy players, that’s pretty much the only reason he has won the Series.
Seems fair to Bryan who is a better well than average player even in his down years (not counting 2020) The only thing really holding him back is his defense in center. I think left field is where he should be.
YanksPhan42
The Pirates are such an inept dumpster fire.
The guy doesn’t want to be there because you offered him a joke of an extension…..but then you request trade chips suggesting he’s a top 5 hitter. Good luck there.
Samuel
JJ 7;
The Pirates offered him a fair amount of money which includes his remaining years of control.
His agents demanded an outrageous amount of money.
Reynolds has been playing with the Pirates for 4 seasons (including COVID-2020). They want him to be a “leader” to help the young players along. He’s been trying to do that and apparently gave up – their young players are constantly making mistakes on the field. At some point it’s on the manager and coaches to work with those players, not him. He’s facing at least another 2 years of this – which will make him 30 years old and having never played for a team that was remotely competitive.
IMO – His outrageous salary demands that were made public were to get him off that team. For that I don’t blame the man. MLB now has expanded playoffs. At least 8-9 teams in each league compete for a spot each year. The Pirates are nowhere near that point. They need to ask for a reasonable return for him and move him to a competitive team. With him or without him they’re fighting to stay out of last place the next 2 years….and possibly for years after.
cwsOverhaul
If Reynolds hits well, looks like he will make in the vicinity of 35mil in these final 3 contractual seasons before reaching FA at age “31” as a passable corner OF defender who likely regresses offensively relative to his current prime years. 6/85 would be fair or 7/100 if there is a fixation on 9 figures + Pirates really want to allocate the $ to player well into his 30s.
These are big picture decisions. If Pitt turns things around, it will be b/c of several dynamic position players and pitchers that are much more important to keep around with considerable $$ than BR in his 30s. Business is business when you need to have the funds available to spend on a well-rounded 26 man roster during prime contention window.
Ron Hayes
Sir you’re making to much sense. Interesting these guys who go to college and spend 3 yea4s in the minors won’t hit free agency till past 30. Guys like Harper gettin big numbers years before
cwsOverhaul
Yeah, it pays to be freakishly talented like Harper/Machado out of HS and reach FA so young.
GarryHarris
Ryan Reynolds was an all star in 2021 but he’s a low range CF and isn’t a great hitter either but there’s not very many good CF around MLB these days.
cornwhisperer
I’m taking it you mean Bryan Reynolds as I can’t see Ryan playing MLB
Let me correct you as a fan who annually sees 150 or so Pirates games ( yea, I have no life)
Reynolds is a decent center fielder who would make a very good corner outfielder on any team.
He is a good hitter with a good eye and plate discipline. He can spray the ball and hit for power, as well
He’s easily the Pirates best player and I suspect in the upper tier of outfielders in MLB. No, he shouldn’t bring a Soto-like haul but Cherington is right in asking for top prospects ready to play on the big team. And conversely, no, he’s not Judge but he’s deserving of more than this extension proposal
I do believe that Pirates front office wishes to finally have an organization that emulates Tampa Bay or Cleveland. That is, have a strong farm program, develop, watch the guys flourish in the majors with control, then cut them loose when they become too expensive and re-load
It would be nice to keep Reynolds but if it’s impossible, then get maximum return that fits into that scheme quickly
cpdpoet
I thought Ryan Reynolds showed great range in a mostly underappreciated performance in Blade III
GarryHarris
No, you may not correct me. Bryan Reynolds may very well be the Pirates best player in your opinion but he is not in my opinion. Again, he’s a low range CF and not a star by any means.
cornwhisperer
I corrected you on saying “Ryan” Reynolds
Your other comments are indicative of someone who either doesn’t watch many games or clearly doesn’t know what he is talking about
Mendoza Line 215
Garry-Reynolds is a centerfielder because the Pirates had no other after they traded Marte.
He has done an acceptable job at one of the most difficult positions,and played there for the team’s sake upon being asked.
He is certainly a star on the Pirates,and very well respected throughout baseball or there would not be so much interest in him.
He has easily been their best player for the last four years,including the first when as a rookie he was leading the League in batting average until the last couple of weeks.
That had never been done before,and only once in the American League.
Who in your opinion has been the Pirates’ best player?
cornwhisperer
Mendoza, I am a tired, old dude and said as much above. Not sure if the fan really was watching Ryan Reynolds at a celeb softball game, as the comments really don’t reflect the player we’ve watched in a Pirates uniform
Mendoza Line 215
Corn-there is a friend of mine who got the moniker Tiredolddude on here before you did.
Garry is entitled to his opinion and in his defense made a simple error that any of us tired old dudes could have made.
I just want him to tell me who he thinks has been better.
YourDreamGM
Where is tired old dude?
GarryHarris
IMO, David Bednar was the Pirates best player followed by Reynolds and I’m willing to bet Bednar will be the most consistent over time.
IMO Ke’Brian Hayes is the best defensive 3B in MLB now and I predict O’Neil Cruz will be better than Reynolds this year
Reynolds was their best player in 2021 but in 2019, Felipe Vazquez(sacrilege to even mention), Starling Marte, Josh Bell and Joe Musgrove followed by Reynolds.
When I watched Pirates games, Reynolds was not a very rangy CF…
I hated the Reds cause they were so good in the 70s. Rennie Stennett was my favorite 2B as a teen. He had a lot of energy but never learned to slide.
cornwhisperer
Uh, for some reason, the old dude wasn’t able to post anymore and has been “replaced” by a guy—or namesake—that whispers to corn
cornwhisperer
I can understand your opinions
Reynolds was “down” in 2022 but really, the only consistent hitter in the lineup even so. You don’t see Reynolds chasing very often and again in a defensive sense, he’s not really a center fielder. In particular, he doesn’t have the shotgun arm, sometimes takes bad paths to the ball and is often hesitant on short fly balls
I don’t think he’s all world but for my money, he’s the best player they have
I like your prediction about Cruz. Let’s hope so. Let’s hope he develops better plate discipline and someone refines his defensive skills.
I root for Bednar. He’s a local kid. I worry about two things: his injury and whether hitters figured him out over time
Guess we shall see
Mendoza Line 215
Garry- The Pirates really did have a few good players on the 2019 team so I do not entirely disagree with you there.
I do think that the closer role is underrated and Bednar is a good one.But I do not think that you can compare one to an everyday very good player unless you have a very good team which makes the closer role very very important and also the closer is someone who you can depend on physically to be available.
Please remember that Reynolds should not be compared to other centerfielders.He is a left fielder.
Mendoza Line 215
Dream-Tiredolddude has evidently gone underground in the federal witness program and changed his name to protect the innocent.
We are considered to be horses and corn whisperer is really named horse whisperer.
He is speaking in tongues to us to say that,yes,he is still with us but in a different guise.
YourDreamGM
Maybe tired old dude went nuts and was talking to corn or said something that doesn’t align with their views. Thankfully that isn’t me. Everything is perfectly fine imo. Just don’t look up.
Mendoza Line 215
Or maybe I am wrong and he will resurface with the moniker “Stud Young Guy”!
And then,unlike me,he gets return phone calls from Ann Margret,Raquel Welch,and Jane Fonda.
Now that,that would tick me off.
cornwhisperer
I think the stud era is well past me, err, TiredOldDude, but who knows? Maybe a jolt of that stuff The Big Hurt and Flutie are peddling on TV will work wonders
Mendoza Line 215
Well if it does ask the three of those women why I do not get a call back because I have been using that name for forty years with them.
Er,I started when I was six years old.
In any event it is good to have you back under any name.
Dream GM and I both missed your posts.
GarryHarris
Who was a better player: Bernie Williams or Mariano Rivera? Both were good…
Mendoza Line 215
Garry- If that question is directed at me or includes me,my answer is that it is totally irrelevant to the previous discussion.
Rivera was the greatest closer in history,and was always available over a very very long period of time.
Bednar has pitched two years in the ML’s and was hurt for a month this year.
Williams was a true centerfielder and his hitting was probably slightly better than Reynolds over a much longer time.
And the Yankees were just a little better team than the current Pirates.
There is no comparison to the two situations and thus the discussion of comparison would be irrelevant.
YourDreamGM
The one that was a unanimous hall of famer and considered by many the best ever at their position.
ray714
Dodgers shoulda made a offer for him. They must really trust Thompson / Outman .
GarryHarris
My point was to try to show how someone might think a reliever is the best player on the team: In 1974, IMO, CL John Hiller was the Tiger’s best player. CF Mickey Stanley had his best season. Neither are HOF and the Tigers were in last place.
Mendoza Line 215
Garry- And I do not disagree with you that it’s is possible,but relatively rare.
Hiller May be correct,but since you seem to be a long time student,how about Willie Hernandez in 1984 with the same Tigers.When someone is both CYW AND MVP,it implies pretty strongly that he would be the best player on the team.
You seem to be fixated not only on Bednar but also that Reynolds is not as deserving since he is only an adequate center fielder.
I sense two definite biases there.
And 2019 was only one year of four,and yes,2020 could have shown the typical sophomore year slump for Reynolds.Methinks that it had more to do with Covid.
All in all I think that it is apparent that Reynolds is the best player on the Pirates,and the interest of other teams also proves that to me.