The Cardinals’ sell-off is in full swing, with Jordan Montgomery, Jordan Hicks and Chris Stratton already out the door. Prior to trading Montgomery and Stratton to the Rangers, the Cardinals spoke to the Orioles about the left-hander, Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports. He adds that the O’s have also talked to the Cardinals about switch-hitting center fielder Dylan Carlson.
Goold suggests that Carlson hasn’t necessarily been a focal point in talks but rather a value add in addition to the starters they’ve marketed. Even if Carlson were viewed as a standalone target for Baltimore, there’d be some sense to it. The O’s are bursting with young talent, but they’re currently without center fielder Cedric Mullins due to a groin strain. Aaron Hicks, who’s hit well since being released by the Yankees and signing in Baltimore, is also on the injured list at the moment (hamstring strain). The O’s have gotten strong production from corner outfielders Austin Hays and Anthony Santander, but top outfield prospect Colton Cowser has struggled immensely in his first 59 plate appearances since being recalled.
Carlson, unlike the other three players the Cardinals have traded in the past 24 hours, is not a free agent at season’s end. He has three years of club control remaining beyond the current season. A former top prospect himself, the 24-year-old’s standing in St. Louis has seemingly deteriorated as he’s produced at a roughly league-average level since turning in a strong 2021 campaign.
The O’s don’t necessarily need a long-term fix in center field, as Mullins is also under team control for multiple years beyond the current season (through 2025). However, even when Mullins returns, there’d theoretically be room for both him and Carlson in the lineup. Anthony Santander could see more time at designated hitter, perhaps cutting into the playing time of struggling Ryan Mountcastle (though Mountcastle’s offense has ticked up over the past couple weeks). A speculative outfield of Hays, Mullins and Carlson would be defensively superior to the current alignment. Adding Carlson to the mix would also open further avenues for offseason deals. Santander is only controlled through the 2024 season and is due a raise on his $7.4MM salary, for instance.
The Cardinals, notably, are virtually certain to trade 27-year-old right-hander Jack Flaherty before Tuesday’s deadline. If Baltimore’s interest in the Cardinals’ pitchers extended beyond Montgomery, then it stands to reason that a deal surrounding Flaherty and Carlson could still be discussed, though the extent of the Orioles’ potential interest in Flaherty isn’t known. The right-hander is three years younger than his now-former teammate, Montgomery, but is also having a weaker season. Flaherty’s ERA is a full run higher, and he’s sporting inferior strikeout, walk and ground-ball rates.
The Orioles are buying ?
Yes should be Flaherty okay.
Yes! You Ignorant-Son-of-a-b!
Awwwww he gonna mute you now like he done me
The Times They Are A-Changin’.
First in shoes, first in booze and now first in the American League? Woooow the st louis browns sure have come a long way simce making that great decision to leave St Louis….
Ice cold beer here
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COOOOOLD BEEEER HEREEEE!!!! LAST CALL FOR ICEEEE COLD BEERRRRR, RIGHT HERE! (AT 6:15PM)…I Have always laughed at the cardinals beer vendors acting like folks don’t have a clock on their wrist on phone to know they have another couple of hours.
The Orioles actually bought before most other teams.
As a matter of fact, their purchase pitched 2 scoreless innings out of the bullpen tonight, striking out 4 Yankees along the way.
Orioles deserve some cookies.
Oreos are for the birds.
All of us in this comments section are also discussing Dylan Carlson. The Orioles aren’t special
Hopefully they get both, Carlson and Flaherty.
This would be a nice pickup for the Os at the right price! The Orioles are in a fortunate position of just entering their window of contention. In my opinion Acquiring someone controllable like a Dylan Carlson makes sense for a young team like the Birds over adding rentals. They have plenty of prospects to get a deal like this done without hurting their farm and future.
Counterpoint. You’ve got Cowser/Norby/Kjerstad in-house nearly all ready. Bringing in a rental over Carlson saves those prospects to upgrade other areas of the team. Also doesn’t block any of the above trio.
I’m not certain Carlson’s upside is greater than of those three I named either.
Fair, and respectable counterpoint. Here’s my counter-counterpoint. I see Carlson thriving in Baltimore. It seems that as of late the Orioles have been able to get production out of hitters that have been scuffling. To be fair there’s probably a little personal bias, I have always been a big believer in Dylan Carlson. Also, it seems like any outfielder that the cards give up go on to flourish somewhere else. I believe he has the potential to be a 20hr 115 WRC+ guy with above average to good defense in the outfield. Maybe they could use one of the in house guys in the pipeline to acquire good pitching sometime in the not too distant future . You do make a good point but I see something in DC. Maybe it’s unfounded but I’d like to see someone give him that shot.
Carlson, like many past Cardinals outfielders, has been mishandled. He was on the bench on opening day so Jordan “negative WAR’ Walker could start.
He’s a ball player. He doesn’t do anything great but he doesn’t do anything bad either.
Been a Carlson supporter since he came up. Great clubhouse guy. Very good defender. Good base runner. Solid baseball IQ. However, unless he ditches hitting from the left side, or develops a new approach at the plate, he’s going to continue to be a very average professional hitter. And tbh, I’m not even sure his ceiling is that high. But, I hope he proves me wrong.
He’s definitely a high floor low ceiling guy. Him and ONeill are like polar opposites. Put Carlsons brain on ONeills body you would have Mike Trout.
He’d probably hit even worse against righties if he gave up switch-hitting.
Grichuk, Jose Martinez, and especially Piscotty never flourished after the Cardinals gave up on them. Grichuk has had an OK career, but he’s also never come close to fulfilling the expectations fans had for him when he first came up.
Grichuk was an interesting player. He had skills you could see them when he played. But he’s not a smart player at all. Can’t believe someone gave him that big contract.
Piscotty was like a less talented Carlson. He was vanilla boring.
Except hit from the left side. That he’s pretty terrible at.
Except hit for the left side. It’s bad
He plays a pretty great outfield. He still has the tools and appears to have the drive to live up to the hype. I’ll say it time after time…they need to fire marmol. Not only has he struggled horribly to properly manage the roster correctly, the players don’t seem receptive to whatever he’s trying. I don’t know who would be a better replacement for the managers seat but a change is needed. One day Bill DeWitt will get over his man crush with Mo to re-energize the team and hopefully the fan base back to full force.
I’m not even sure Carlson is an upgrade over Ryan McKenna at this point.
I am not even sure who Ryan McKenna is fella.
“I am not even sure who Ryan McKenna is”
Exactly lol.
And I was replying to NineChampionships anyway.
For being all over every Orioles post blessing us all with your unfortunate views, you should know who he is.
He’s an upgrade offensively . He’s right around league avg career K rate (22 %). McKenna (33%). Has power. And, an Elias angle, he’s a switch hitter.
Defensively, an upgrade at CF too? Much more playing experience innings wise than McKenna.
Based on his average-ish sprint speed and poor jumps, I would be pretty shocked if Carlson was a better defensive CF than McKenna. There isn’t a huge difference in their offense either- McKenna has a .661 OPS since the start of last year, Carlson a .688.
For what it’s worth, the fielding bible DRS board has him rated a tad higher than McKenna this year
Good morning KFloch. Agree to disagree on offense comparables.I am biased about McKenna. He just strikes out way too much for my liking. My favorite stat is K rate. As of now, when playoffs come around and if Os are in it, please have Mullins, Frazier and Rutschman in the line up every game. Cheers!
Ryan McKenna has a career WAR of .2
Thats not an upgrade in any way over Carlson.
The Orioles have a delusional fan base. If you think your team is ready to win in October you are in for a rude awakening.
Aaron Hicks looked finished in NY too. Elias wants to swoop in and grabbed an underperforming player and fix him. That’s the orioles M.O.
@CY Jeff
Carlson’s batted ball metrics are awful, which is more important than K rate to me. If he could be had for, like, Drew Rom, I guess that would be okay, but he’s not really a meaningful upgrade over McKenna, IMO.
@King Of Cards
Carlson has an OPS+ of 95 since the start of last year, McKenna has an 88 during the same stretch, so it’s much closer to a lateral move than any sort of meaningful upgrade.
McKenna is also a much faster runner than Carlson, which is preferable in a bench piece, IMO.
The only delusional one around here seems to be you. Fans aren’t delusional simply because they don’t agree with your rants and trade proposals. If they feel you are undervaluing their teams talent, they are free to say so, they are entitled to their opinions just as you are, regardless of how right or wrong they may be. I guess we will just have to see how it all plays out. Still about 30 hours or so till the deadline and there will likely be a flurry of moves.
@Bstrowman9
Like I said to Jeff, if he could be had for Drew Rom, I could probably live with it, but nothing more than that.
Rom & Stowers—we got a deal!
No way, that is a huge overpay for Carlson. I’d much rather have 6 years of Stowers than 3 of Carlson.
Fellas, I’m not a big stats guy, Offensively, BA, PA, Avg, Ks is what I gravitate too. I know BBs are important as well but they r a turn off going back decades. I appreciate the additional stat lines. I’m learning. Cheers!
Baseball Savant is a very useful website for getting a look under the hood, so to speak- average exit velocity, hard hit rate, whiff rate, etc.
Red is good and blue is bad, and Carlson’s page has A LOT of blue.
@floch sure but those are just stats based on what he’s doing what the cardinals:
The orioles, if interested, have their own adjustments in mind. They don’t mean much to me. Kinda like what we did with O’hearn, Hicks, Frazier etc. Elias and Co. are using some other data they have on him to be sure.
Or Fuji. O’s have their own plan with players. Stowers is 25 and I don’t believe he’ll ever hit big league pitching.
I’d be perfectly fine getting the higher touted former prospect, who is still younger for him and Rom. The O’s have a plan for whoever they target. Full trust from me.
Nobody wants Rom or Stowers those are waiver wire guys
I know that, but I could also rattle off a bunch of guys like Rio Ruiz, Jahmai Jones, Rougned Odor and Maikel Franco who they were unable to fix/unlock.
Their success rate is quite good but it’s not automatic that they can fix him.
Sure. Carlson has been there though. The rest of those guys were fairly minor pickups. Jam Jones was a miss but that’ll happen.
We shall see
@cards
Yeah you aren’t gonna get what you want for 2 months of Jack Flaherty and broken Dylan Carlson. I could see Haskin possibly going back because he’s a blocked CF’er.
I would take Fabian for Flaherty perhaps but the Cardinals really need ready to play guys. Haskin meh he looks like a 4th outfielder to me.
Carlson needs a change of scenery. I think he will get much better if given a chance to play every day. He’s been jerked around quite a bit by Marmol and Mo. The good thing is that he never complains or pouts about it.
@cardsfan57
That’s another thing I like about the guy. He goes out there, puts his head down, and does his given assignment without hesitation.
As long as Carlson continues to post such mediocre numbers against righties, he doesn’t deserve a full-time job in the Cardinals’ crowded outfield.
Nootbaar has clearly outplayed him, O’Neill is a better player now that he’s healthy again, Walker’s bat needs to be in the lineup whether it’s at DH or CO. Burleson has easily outhit him against righties. With the MI logjam, Donovan has also outhit him, while even Edman has slightly outhit him against righties while playing comparably good defense in CF.
He needs a change of scenery. He had the best spring of all the outfielders this year and was still the odd man out on opening day. Marmol lied about the competition for centerfield this spring. It was O’Neill’s position from the start. He should have said so instead of lying bout the competition. Carlson had a two home run game against left handed pitching then sat the next few games against left handers.
Who ever through him under the bus about the Soto trade last year did a lot of damage. The hate he began getting from fans was ridiculous. The Cardinals were never going to trade for Soto. They had 400 million reasons they would never empty the farm for Soto. At some point all that is going to impact a player as young as Carlson. See what happens when Carlson’s traded. Marmol is horrible at player motivation. He tends to do the opposite.
ONeills presence was not the problem Walker’s was. ONeill deserved to play Walker was the one who showed up and got a spot he didn’t earn.
He didn’t deserve to play in center. That’s one of the reasons O’Neill went on the IL. Center is hard on a player, especially a player build like a body builder. The team put an infielder in center over Carlson. What does that do to your confidence. O’Neill’s and Edman’s offense suffered even more than Carlson’s did last year after being moved to center unexpectedly.
Marmol thinks these players are all interchangable lego blocks. That’s one of the team’s biggest problems.
I agree again Walker was the problem not ONeill. No way Walker should have played ahead of either of them. And yes Marmol is an idiot but I don’t think it was his idea to put Walker on the roster on opening day.
Myles Straw is headed to Baltimore with the Guardians to receive Cole Irvin
Making it up because who would be Guardians CF then.
Brennan, followed by Valera once he gets called up
Kwan moves to CF
Orioles. Pitching. Come on guys. Pitching. Sell some of your ridiculous position player depth and find you some solid mid-rotation pitching with control. Montgomery was your man, but there are others and he was a rental. Go hunting. This could be your year and don’t constantly push it off until next year.
I don’t see a deal happening between the Cardinals and Orioles.
We’ll close your eyes and squint real hard, HARDER…no? Well, I guess we’re lucky it all doesn’t depend on you seeing it.
You sure are a clever one!
I’d rather us deal with the Yankees than O’s.
Off topic, but how is Trevor May not being mentioned as someone likely to get moved? He’s a free agent and there’s no way the A’s want to pay him the couple million they still owe. He’s pitched to a 2.49 ERA since his return in late May.
May has walked 15 and struck out 18 in 21 IP.
True, his ERA is low. So far.
Maybe Andrew Friedman wakes up from his drunk and trades Lynn to the Orioles?
Arenado and Flaherty for Buehler, May and Bruns
Who says no?
Flaherty wants to play in LA he might take less money to play there.
I think the Cards would say no to that. Both Buehler/May are UFA in 2025. May will probably miss most of 2024. Walker is a dice roll. I think they could get much more for Arenado.
You dont just get Buehler and May though you get the money saved from Arenado to spend on other needs like pitching.
I think Arenado is running out of good years. I think Gorman is the better player over the next 4 years which is how long Arenado is signed for.
Arenado is still a superstar right now, and there’s no reason Gorman can’t play at 2B/DH for the next 4 years alongside him.
Besides, Mozeliak has already confirmed that Arenado isn’t being traded.
Cards say no for sure
Nothing less than 2 of LA’s top pitching prospects moves Arenado. Flaherty gets you nothing more than a low level prospect.
In before Cards fans say Holliday/Carlson is fair value.
If we took a Jackson Holiday
Took some time to celebrate
Just one day out of life
It would be, it would be so nice
Comment of the day right here.
OMG…. did you just do a while Madonna verse for that? And nobody commented on it??? LOL!
Nice strawman. Did you build it yourself?
I’d probably rather just play Ryan McKenna over giving up anything of value for Carlson.
Pass on Flaherty and his 1.55 WHIP too.
Look at Flahertys stats after April. He’s been really good he just got off to a really bad start. The team was having trouble with Contreras and him getting the signs right and also with the pitch clock.
Flaherty is good. He’s a west coast guy but Orioles don’t really sign anyone to big contracts anyways so rentals are cool.
Out of curiosity, I looked at Flaherty’s stats since the start of June, and opposing hitters are batting .295/.365/.444 against him in that stretch. No thanks, I’d much rather have Michael Lorenzen (.237/.288/.351 during the same stretch).
You are nuts if you prefer Lorenzen to Flaherty. Cardinals have had terrible team defense all year you have to understand that. Jordan Walker is the worst defensive player in all of baseball. 2 time gold glover ONeill has bee hurt he just came back.
The Tigers have not exactly had stellar defense either. I’m not a big fan of Lorenzen, but it’s hard to deny he’s hat a really good season.
Lorenzen has actually been good this year, Flaherty hasn’t been good since 2021.
Flaherty I think has more potential. But yeah Tigers defense doesn’t do him any favors. Lorenzen I see as more steady Flaherty either pitches great or starts walking guys and chokes. Maybe Lorenzen is the better fit for the Orioles. Heck they could probably use both.
Worse than Kyle Schwarber?
Only parts of the team defense have been terrible. Goldschmidt, DeJong, Carlson, Nootbaar, and Edman have been good defensively as usual. Gorman has improved significantly at 2B. Despite a defensive down year, Arenado is still a pretty good glove at 3B.
Lorenzen is having a great year. Hopefully it’s sustainable after he leaves the Tigers. If not maybe they resign him in the offseason. I also like Flaherty and wouldn’t be averse to the Tigers signing him in the offseason and letting Chris Fetter get a crack at him. Hes only 27. Packaging Flaherty with an OF should up the return for St Louis.
Where are my friendly Orioles fans?
Flaherty, Carlson and Graceffo for Cowser.
I like that deal.
It’s decent. I don’t think we would end up sending Graceffo though, I think Mo is hoping to use him to finish up the year and see how he does in order to justify being a little cheap in FA.
We got Mcgreevy who pitched a gem today. Between that and the new additions we could afford to lose Graceffo. And because Graceffo missed some time earlier in the year he could help the Orioles down the stretch. They can have Hudson too but he’s just a throw in.
What do they believe to be the ceiling on Graceffo? I know they think he bottoms out at 4 or 5 starter. Does anyone think he can be ace material? I like McGreevy and agree with you, but still think the FO will want to hoard pitching in an effort to overcorrect and then maybe deal some of it at a later time.
I don’t think he’s an ace at all I think he’s a number 3 at best with some risk but probably at least a decent reliever.
McGreevy lacks upside but all he does is perform. Different pitchers for sure.
Graceffo is not exactly doing great at AAA. His ERA is over 4. He’s not ready for MLB. He’s still young and may be something in the future. He’s not helping anyone this year at the MLB level.
AAA is an offensively charged environment in 2023. How many starters have an ERA under 4? Not many at all. Graceffo is doing OK.
Liberatore had an ERA under 4 at AAA. He has an ERA of 6.75 after being called up. My point is that the ERA is going to be higher when pitching to MLB hitters than it is while pitching to AAA hitters.
Liberatore was a victim of bad luck and poor defense. Look at FIP it’s a better stat.
No it’s not necessarily going to be higher.
Liberatore’s FIP is 4.69 and the WHIP is 1.844. That’s worse than he was doing at AAA. Graceffo will do no better if he’s called up this year.
That’s better than the 6.75 ERA he has. Whip includes defense so I wouldn’t use that again bad defense has hurt him a lot.
They are different pitchers. Liberatore was 5+ ERA last year anyway. Can’t really compare the two though. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Graceffo and McGreevy up here soon.
lol no
Did HAL200 say to make that trade? Cowser is hitting well under .200. I think he’s overrated but will be a decent player (that’s not a dig, it’s an opinion).
Cowser carries some platoon risk but should be good enough against righties to still be a very valuable player.
Why did Westburg get pulled in the 5th? Injury ? Or Traded? S
Just defensive shuffling. Hyde said he wanted Frazier out of LF.
Brandon HYde is not a patient man so he pulled Westburg to get Frazier out of left field with a six run lead.
This makes zero sense. Orioles have a strong starting OF and an abundance of talented young OFs on the way. The only thing they should be trading prospects for is pitching.
You need 4 outfielders not just 3. If Cowser has a role on the 2023 Orioles so could Carlson assuming Cowser is in the deal.
Cedric Mullins and Aaron Hicks are both out with leg injuries. Despite suggesting Saturday they are not looking for position players, I think Elias is smarter than to risk not having either in September or the playoffs. Mullins injury in particular is concerning being it’s his 2nd stint on the IL since early June. Concerning because he is a player who relies so much on his legs for success.
Some of these Orioles fans are gonna be legit mad if the Orioles trade with the Cardinals. Braun Strowman will lose his mind if the Orioles trade any prospects. Flock is already getting worked up lol.
Cardinals had a good day today but there is more work to be done. Can’t wait to see what else happens.
Rent free lol.
Dude you were telling me how smart you were earlier. Now it appears the Orioles and Cardinals are discussing deals.
Hopefully for your sake the Orioles do something. Flags fly forever. Were you alive the last time the Orioles won it all? I was 3.
Uhhh, no I wasn’t.
Are you on drugs? That would explain quite a bit actually.
*Mind Blown* I’m not trying to be insulting but from reading your comments I would have placed you in the 20s age range.
I am pretty sure you are trying to be insulting.
If my team was in 1st I wouldn’t be telling everyone how great the farm system is. Especially if it had been 40 years since they won a championship.
Stowers could be a starting corner OF for like a third of the league right now. Guess the O’s have zero faith in the kid.
He can’t really play LF at OPACY regularly or CF pretty much at all, which really hurts his ability to carve out a role on the team.
Offseason cash trade acquisition Ryan O’Hearn suddenly turning into Freddie Freeman and being able to play COF some of the time definitely didn’t help his cause either.
Pitching, pitching, pitching, please. That’s it. Our “young” staff is hitting a wall as they hit new personal records in innings with fifty games left in the year. The O’s need a decent starter at best or a vet with playoff experience at worst (besides Gibson). Even better, a reliever to help these guys out and shorten the game when they start tanking in the fourth or fifth inning.
Here is an idea
Westburg
Kjerstad
Mayo
For
Gilbert
Sewald
I like that deal for both teams.
Now, I’m thinking King Floch was right to ask if you are on drugs!
Kjerstad isn’t going anywhere. Wouldn’t be shocked if he was at 1B Opening Day next season, could possibly be up this year when rosters expand.
How else are you getting stud cost controlled pitching?
Everyone else except Orioles fans seem to understand Balitmore needs better pitching.
OK Cashman, time to swoop in and nab Carlson. We need a left fielder and Grichuk and Bellinger are off the table.
That would make sense. A lot more sense than a trade to Balmer. (Unless Hicks and Mullins are hurt worse than they are letting on).
Meanwhile the Giants have discussed…
I know the feeling lol.
Are the Cardinals going to be an NL central competitive team in 2024?
Yes once they get Gilbert Kjerstad Cowser and Eury Perez.
What do you care????
Whether or not the Cardinals will be competetive in 2024 depends on what they are willing to spend on free agent pitching. I don’t see any of the minor league pitchers they have ready to step into the rotation next year. They are doing just okay at AAA or lower this year. Hence is doing well under an extremely light work load. He’s a long way from MLB ready.
I also don’t see what the Cardinals are willing to trade bringing back the starting pitching they need. Maybe they can get a decent starter if they package Edman with an outfielder. Gorman would bring back a starter but he needs to be kept. Trading him would upset me a great deal. I’d rather see one of the 30 something stars traded than Gorman. He’s part of the future team core.
If the Orioles acquire an outfielder, Alex Verdugo would be the man
I don’t see BOS trading within the division. Every team in division is competitive, I’d think they’d all b reluctant to strengthen others within division.
Cards giving up on Carlson would finish the trifecta started with Adolis & Randy, moving us mercifully closer to the firing of Marmol & Mo. That they misused & weren’t able to get Carlson up the ladder should be a firing offence because I’m certain in any other organization he’d shine. They needed to have traded bad seed O’Neill 18 months ago …
snell and hader from SD is what should happen for the O’s..they could give up joey ortiz and Stowers
Emmanuel Clase to STL for Carlson and Gorman.
lmao. no.
“The Cardinals, notably, are virtually certain to trade 27-year-old right-hander Jack Flaherty before Tuesday’s deadline.”
What kind of amateur writes a sentence like this? Start it with “notably,” if you absolutely have to have what is a pretty nonadditive word in the sentence. It can’t come in the middle. Don’t interrupt your flow. Steve Adams needs English classes.