The Cardinals came into 2023 with hopes of contending, as they generally always do. The club has finished below .500 just once this century, back in 2007, and has qualified for the playoff in each of the past four seasons. Unfortunately, things haven’t been trending their way this year, with the Cards currently 38-52 and in last place in the National League Central.
A few weeks ago, the club’s president of baseball operations John Mozeliak spoke about how the club hadn’t yet made any concrete decisions about how to approach the deadline. But those plans seem to have firmed up recently, with Mozeliak speaking with Martin Kilcoyne of The Kilcoyne Conversation at Scoops with Danny Mac, discussing how the club is planning to make moves aimed at improving the 2024 roster.
Mozeliak says that the club won’t be “waving the white flag” but admits that “all decisions or all moves we do really will try to set us up for next year.” He goes on to say that they won’t just give players away but that they “want to get some return that’s going to help us for 2024 and that’s going to be, really, our focus as we enter the trading period.” He also admitted that there’s not really such a thing as a player who’s “untouchable” because anything can happen, but also states that “The fact is we hope we can keep our core together and then, you know, supplement it properly.”
To hear him take such a stance is hardly surprising, given their current place in the standings. They are 11.5 games out in the division and 11 back of the final Wild Card spot right now. FanGraphs currently pegs their playoff odds at just 6.3%. A hot streak between the All-Star break and the deadline could change those odds, but it seems the club is accepting that their best path forward is to make decisions with their eyes set on a fresh start next year.
The club could have also considered committing to a more significant rebuild with their sights set even further into the future, but there are reasons why it makes sense to take a more measured approach. The club came into this year with a strong roster than many predicted to win the division and that could easily be true of 2024 as well, especially since every position player on the club is still under club control for next year. The pitching staff is a different story, but some modest selling could still leave the club with a solid core for next year.
There’s also the fact that this year’s deadline seems to be lining up to be a seller’s market, with so many clubs still hovering near contention thanks to the expanded postseason and some weaker divisions. By staking out some space in the seller column, the Cards could quickly add some controllable talent to the system and then figure out how to proceed in the offseason.
In terms of impending free agents, the club will have plenty of players to shop around. Jordan Montgomery and Jack Flaherty are each slated to reach free agency this winter and should garner plenty of interest, especially with pitching always in demand around the league. Montgomery has a long track record of solid production and is having arguably his best season to date, with a 3.23 ERA that would be a personal best. Flaherty’s 4.27 ERA isn’t quite as impressive but he’s shown better upside in the past, including his 2.75 ERA in 2019. Relievers Chris Stratton and Jordan Hicks are each having nice seasons and could also be flipped before they reach free agency in a few months’ time.
Since those aforementioned players are all rentals, moving them wouldn’t hurt the 2024 club in any way. The Cards could potentially hang onto to them and issue them qualifying offers in order to receive compensatory draft picks, though Mozeliak admitted that “Our hope is we can get more than just the pick, and so that will be what we try to do.” That also tracks with the club’s aims of continuing to compete in 2024, as they could recoup players close to helping at the major league level, whereas a draft pick wouldn’t be likely to help the club until years down the line.
There’s also an argument to be made that the Cards could trade some controllable position players in a way that helps the 2024 club. They have plenty of outfielders in the mix, including Lars Nootbaar, Dylan Carlson, Jordan Walker, Tyler O’Neill and Alec Burleson, while infielders like Tommy Edman and Brendan Donovan have also been pushed into the outfield of late as Paul DeJong and Nolan Gorman have regularly taken the middle infield spots. One of the club’s top prospects, shortstop Masyn Winn, is in Triple-A this year and should be due for a major league audition at some point. Other depth options on the 40-man include Juan Yepez, Moises Gomez and Richie Palacios. The club also has Iván Herrera, a valuable catching prospect, who is currently blocked by Willson Contreras.
That’s quite the crowded picture and the Cards could perhaps decide which players they like best while moving a few others while still having a solid group overall. However, those kinds of decisions aren’t always easy to make, as the club has seen in recent years. Mozeliak admitted that the club made mistakes in letting go of players like Randy Arozarena and Adolis García while sticking with guys like O’Neill and Harrison Bader.
It’s easy to make those kinds of calls with the benefit of hindsight, but the Cards may have to make some tough decisions again, especially in order to improve the pitching staff. With Montgomery, Flaherty, Hicks and Stratton on their way to free agency and Adam Wainwright set to retire, there are plenty of holes to fill on the pitching side of things. Some of the remaining options are also questionable, with Mozeliak admitting the club didn’t get what they expected from pitchers like Dakota Hudson and Matthew Liberatore this year.
As for the coaching, Mozeliak doesn’t lay any blame at the foot of second-year manager Oli Marmol. “I don’t think the coaches have any fault in this,” Mozeliak said. “They are handed the players. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. But I think Oli and his group do a really good job. They work really hard. And, you know, they continue to do that. But their level of frustration is probably as real as the fan base.” Marmol’s first season at the helm resulted in a 93-69 record and a division title. The results haven’t been there this season but it seems like he’s likely to get another shot with a different roster next year.
Exactly how the Cards navigate the deadline will undoubtedly be influenced by what kind of conversations they have with other clubs in the weeks to come, but it seems like they have settled on a broad plan of making whatever decisions will help the club next year. That likely means impending free agents will be available and perhaps other players as well. This year’s trade deadline is August 1, now less than three weeks away.
No big surprises here but good to hear him say something that makes sense.
It’s a reload not a rebuild. The team has a lot of talent young and old both.
Trade all the soon to be free agents. That includes Montgomery, Flaherty, Hicks and Stratton. ONeill will be dealt for sure. Probably should trade DeJong.
There is work to do. I wouldn’t mind seeing an ONeill trade today there is no reason to wait.
the only thing i kind of disagree with is trading oneil. im not sure he has enough value to bring anything in return. his upside is high enough that going into next year with the same outfield (noot, carlson, walker, oneil,burleson) should be pretty optimistic for the caridnals. i think gorman is the player of note that could actuslly bring a legit top 3 starter back to help next year. the offe se is good enough to make up for his loss.
O’Neills time is done with the Cardinals. For better or worse. I don’t think his upside is all that high. Take advantage of teams that believe it is. In six seasons he’s only put it all together once. Those 5 other years are likely more indicative of what your getting.
Anything resembling potential value for shipping him away would be a good move.
Kelly
His upside is absolutely that high. 2019 and 2020 he didn’t get a chance to play he had to sit behind Dexter “the contract” Fowler. 2021 he was great. Last year and this year he had major injury issues. To say he doesn’t have upside is silly. He might not realize it that’s why it’s called upside but he has it more than just about anyone.
bpskelly im cool with trading oneil for potential value, id just be surprised if they get anything to be excited about.
O’Neill deservedly sat in 2019 and 2020 (and still got too much playing time in 2020), because he sucked back then, while Fowler had a decent rebound for those two years after his terrible 2018. Fowler legitimately outplayed him back then.
However, I do agree that O’Neill still has a lot of upside, as his problems these last two years have been more because of injuries than his talent. If he can remain healthy once he returns from the IL, he could still provide pretty good value between his offense and defense.
I just don’t think there’s enough time before the trade deadline to show that such that it would be worth trading him at this point. He’s more likely to get moved in the offseason or simply kept for his last year before free agency.
Lanidrac
That’s not true. ONeill was better than Fowler in both 2019 and 2020. Defense matters ONeill is an excellent defender Fowler was horrible.
ONeill has no place to play now that Jordan “the golden child” Walker is playing left. He needs to be traded.
I would bet anything ONeill has a better 2024 than Walker does. But it doesn’t matter the team has made their mind up.
Cj
Personally I disagree with trading ONeill. But the organization insists on pretending Walker is an outfielder.
I wouldn’t trade Gorman. He’s the guy that can legitimately be the best hitter in baseball at some point in his career. I guess it would depend on the return. Gorman for Gilbert maybe I could do that. Gorman for Alcantara back ok maybe. Or Gorman for Cease maybe. There needs to he ace potential coming back in return
agree with this although I’d trade O’Neill for pitching in a heartbeat. But teams can fo on Gorman or pony up a return.
Sorry but you seem to come across as absolutely biased. Gorman is not getting back an ace or even a #2 SP. He looks like he ll b an excellent hitter for years to come, but the notion that he could b the best hitter in baseball is absolutely extreme. Gorman has 0 chance of getting Alcantra or Cease back that’s just asinine.
As for ONeil there is no denying he has talent, but it’s starting to seem as tho 2021 was an outlier. He very well could prove that is not the case, at this point tho he does not have all that much trade value.
Alcantara and Cease are both pitching below expectations.
Gorman is a future star. His big question mark is hid defense but he’s played a lot better at 2b this year. Tje bat is legit wait and see he will be a league leader for at least a year or w dur9ng his career.
The AL batting champion only got a return of Pablo Lopez. And yes Gorman has some pop, but even in Minors he’s rarely hit for avg or had a high OBP. In no world dies he get a return of Cease or Alcantara even if they re having a down year.
I think his point was that would be the only scenario in which you let Gorman go…. Cardinals ha e searched for a power lefty bat for years and they finally have one. Also, Gorman has gotten really good at playing second for the most part. I believe he is a core piece you have to build around. If the Cardinals want Cease they can get him with quantity. If I were in the FO (Thank God I’m not) I would look to move Yepez, Burleson, Gomez, Baker, possibly Donovan, Carlson,DeJong and some other minor league guys. If I planned on trying to run this year I would hold on to Flaherty and Montgomery, if not I would deal Flaherty bit I would try to sign Montgomery to an extension. If Contreras is my guy no matter what I would deal Herrara. I would still sign Hicks if I could (he isn’t gonna be expensive) I would figure out some way to dump the Matz contract. I would go after Cease or other top shelf pitching. If you can get one and mix it with Monty, Mikolas, and see what you habe in the minors you could have a fairly solid starting 4. Wait till the off-season and then deal for another arm? Idk, just my opinion
@Cards, now that I totally agree with. This off season the 2B is horribly thin as it has been past few seasons. And personally I think teams are best off building up the center for their core.
I see pitching being a huge issue tho for them. Wainwright is in twighlight of career, Matz is iffy, Montgomery is going to b expensive, and Mikolas has had 2 solid seasons to his name and is now 34. Liberatore I just can’t figure out. He seemingly has great stuff, just never really translates to success tho.
Maybe? You wouldn’t get any of those pitchers straight up for Gorman
You mean Mikolas has 2 great seasons (2018, 2022) and 1 1/3 additional solid seasons (2019, May to the present this year) to his name. He’s a legitimate #2 starter. However, you are right that he is getting older and can’t lead a rotation all by himself.
Arraez hits for average but doesn’t do much else. He wasn’t that great in 2022. And Lopez was Lopez was pitching like a number 2. Lopez got worse Arraez got better so that’s not a fair comparison.
Trading Herrera would be foolish. He is the catcher of the future. After next year, Contreras will struggle to catch half the games. He has never been a workhorse and never will be especially as he gets older. The contract was bad, yes, and we are indeed stuck with him but it doesn’t mean to trade who may be our best catcher when there is no replacement close to being ready.
Gorman should be almost untouchable, in my opinion. He still has so much growth that will happen, and once he finally becomes confident and comfortable, he’s going to be a real force to deal with every AB. Trade Donovan and give Gorman his spot on the field to continue his development. Noot can go, Burleson can go, Carlson can go, many other guys too, but Gorman is the one we’ll end up regretting trading if their dumb enough to do it. Just my 2 cents that aren’t worth 1.
Diggin
I agree that trading Donovan instead of Gorman makes sense. But if we could get someone really exciting for the top of the rotation I would consider dealing Gorman. Gotta be someone really good.
Well, whatever they do, chances are I’ll be disappointed anyway. I agree with DonO, I think they’ll probably screw up just about any decision they (Mo & Co) make. They may trade the right guys, but I don’t expect the returns to have much significance at all in the Cards’ future. If we’re lucky, we’ll trade 4 or 5 guys and get 1 good one.
All I know is, I will be so happy when Mo & Co are finally gone. And if I knew the Cards would have to stay in StL, I also wish the DeWitts would sell the team. I don’t like any of them, besides Flores.
Trading Edman makes more sense than Donovan, look at that OBP. Edman is good but its getting congested in the IF with Gormans improvement at 2B and Winn on the way.
You’re right, but if I remember correctly, teams were/are more interested in trading for Donovan (?) … that’s why I said trade him. Not that I don’t like him, I like both him and Edman, but like you said, the congestion must be cleared somehow. Same for Noot, he’s worth keeping around, but if teams are willing to offer the right trades, I think he’s expendable too. I couldn’t care less if Carlson or Burleson were traded.
To be clear, I don’t think Carlson or Burleson are bad players, I just think they’re easy to replace and upgrade.
Although, Edman can also play several positions and with much better defense than Donovan. Still, I agree that Edman is the more likely to be traded simply due to how much closer he is to free agency.
I don’t think it makes sense. Doubling down on the coaching staff is one of the dumbest things he could possibly say. Coaching / Marmol is laughably bad. You don’t lose all those 1 run games and think, “oh the coaching staff just didn’t have the roster they thought.” Come on.
Monty, Flaherty, Hicks, Stratton, O’Neil, definitely all gone, agreed. Agree on a reload over a rebuild, but I don’t think there’s ever going to be a roster Marmol touches that can win it all.
You also don’t give a negative opinion publicly, if you are not ready to act. I’m sure you would not be happy with your boss telling everyone you’re doing a crappy job.
They lost all those one run games mostly because the bullpen sucks.
I do think the coaching staff could use some changes, but this is just Marmol’s second year after leading them to a division title with over 90 wins last year, so I think he deserves another chance.
I don’t know if O’Neill will have enough time to market himself after returning from the IL to be tradable, but otherwise I completely agree with you.
good post joel
Hey I know you!!!
Working on getting back on Cardstalk. We will see. I am charge it to the game over there don’t tell anyone it’s a secret lol.
That’s the right approach for them. Not sure of what all went wrong this year as I don’t closely follow the Cards, but they’ve been good too long for me to believe this is more than a blip. Punt on the year, come back stronger.
I lived in KC, KS for 5 years, always liked the Cards. as an outsider I’ll be candid & say I don’t care for the manager or the FO. you don’t berate your players in the media & this debacle on Contreras was a huge faux pas. that kind of ridiculous drama was uncalled for.
Mo, sometimes when something stinks in the room, check under your own armpits first, don’t blame everyone around you.
Yes Curly the Contreras and the ONeill situations both were an embarrassment. Marmol needs to go he’s in over his head.
As a distant fan KoC, I’ve been watching BB since 1957. There have been many moronic moves by clubs but this Contreras attack on a free agent who is in his first year with the club is so outrageous, so anti-productive how do you proceed as a lucrative entity?
MO has to go. Bad ju-ju for the club.
2024 close fans and distant fans like me have short memories.
Yeah it was bad but the ONeill thing was almost as bad. And it’s a pattern that shows Marmol is clueless. ONeill got called out for not hustling on a play where he never ever should have been sent. And ONeill is in better shape than basically anyone in baseball to say he doesn’t hustle is insane.
Marmol is no good. That’s the one thing I think most Cardinal fans can agree on.
KoC, who concocted the whole Contreras nonsense, who benefited? I actually felt embarrassed for him. How do you build a team from this mis trust?
Not trying to be a jerk, who wants to be on this team now?
Yes who benefited is a great question
The dumbest part about the Contreras thing is I think it was 10 days later and he was back to starting again. Why not just give him a few extra days off and not make everything public?
Marmol is no good.
i sympathize, i think this will hurt your team until you can reboot. good luck
You can be in great shape. You can hustle. These are separate things.
First thing they need is a new manager
Well-said…. Entirely too many failures on the part of Marmol and the front office in who STL dealt with specific players and situations. No one in their right mind does those things.
My feelings are that the mass exodus of coaches caused these issues. These coaches are learning as they go.
My feeling is that the mass exodus of coaches was caused by their realization that they were on a sinking ship. But replacing them with a bunch of inexperienced rookies is another strike against Mo.
So what changed to cause those coaches to decide the ship was sinking? Were new policies and procedures put in place against their recommendations?
I don’t think anyone can pinpoint one particular reason, or two, or three, for the team consistently playing so poorly. I would say almost nothing has gone right, so in my opinion, basically everything has gone wrong.
Trade Flaherty, Montgomery, Walker, Hicks, Goldy, Stratton, O’Neil, Carlson, Gallegos, Helsley.
Release Hudson, Yepez, Verhagen, Palacios, Fermin, Knizner, Zuniga, Rodriguez, Naile, Cabrera, Leahy.
Build around the core of Nootbaar, Arenado, Donovan, Edman, Gorman, Wynn.
Sign some starters and relievers during free agency.
I’m good with trading all of those EXCEPT Helsley, Goldy and Walker. I mean, where are they going to find bullpen help next year? If they have to sign 6 bullpen pieces and a few starters, they won’t be getting good enough pitching to help their woes. Plus. who do they have to take Goldy’s spot? They have no power hitting First baseman to replace him.
The releasing part I’m good with except Knizner. He’s not great, but I’d rather have him being backup to Contreras and letting Herrera play full time in Triple A than Herrera only play a day or two a week as backup.
But really, you’re a fool if you’re okay with trading Walker. The kid is barely 21, he’s still raw. He’s gonna be good. He needs to be part of the core to build around, along with the other guys you mentioned. I’d be more open to trading Donovan though.
Goldy is old and we need to cash in now. If we trade him we can put Walker at his rightful position of first base. I’m not big on walker and would rather them flip him for a top pitching prospect, but I don’t see the cardinals having the balls to take that risk. Just what I want. So trade Goldy. Helsley is too inconsistent. The whole point is to hit a clean restart button on this team. Let’s cash in on Helsley now. There will be plenty of paths to find relievers. Teams like the rays find obscure relievers off waivers all the time. Why is this organization too lazy to do so. Herrera can’t be in AAA forever. Either trade him now for something or just bring him up.
Sir this isn’t a Wendy’s
If Goldy gets traded, they should move Gorman to 1B. He may have improved defensively, but he’s still a hack.
He has a no trade clause… there is no cashing in on goldy because there is no leverage… he would get to pick the team he was traded to meaning the return wouldn’t be nearly what he is worth. Signing him to a cheaper 2-3 year deal to just let him finish in stl, because he honestly could be a HOF and he would likely go in as a card at that point… you don’t trade those types of players just to trade them, which is what this would be doing
Glad you’re not in charge. No executive in the league would do that
The nationals did something very similar few years back. The mediocrity of the division is prohibiting teams from going into a full rebuild. Hover around .500 and you have a chance. Cards need to sell whatever expiring contracts they can.
No on Walker being traded. No on Yepez getting released (he can be traded in a package). I agree with your core to build around.
You see Yepez numbers in AAA? combine that with his non existent defense and base running I don’t think any other team would keep him on their 40 man. And yeah like I said I don’t see Walker going anywhere but flipping him for a pitching prospect of equal value is attractive imo
Yepez can be used in a multi-player package to entice a team to cough up a top young starter. I’d rather him be used that way than released.
Cards need a truckload of pitchers.
Why?
They’ll just ruin them.
If Mo is allowed to direct the moves, we are really looking at ’25 or beyond. He has no clue. There is no point discussing who they should trade or what they should target. He will screw it up. This is just a clever disguised way of saying “nothing is going to change”.
Drama queen
Cubs’ fan
Way to go, Mo!
You mean when you want to say EVERY move has been bad please doofus please explain how we have arenado (Rockies still paying him) and goldy as well. If you are going to judge him judge him for everything you moron. Sit down if you going to be always bitter 20 years moron of winning may want to ask a Guardians fan how entitled you sound as well a homer
Hey Alphabet, why don’t you just allow people to have their own opinions, regardless of whether you agree with them or not, instead of saying a bunch of nonsense about someone you wouldn’t know if he was standing right next to you? He didn’t ask if you agreed, so what makes you think he cares if you do or don’t? Calling people insulting names on the internet is immature and makes you look bad, getting worked up over nothing.
How to clean up the 40 man roster:
Trade Flaherty, Montgomery, Walker, Hicks, Goldy, Stratton, O’Neil, Carlson, Gallegos, Helsley, Dejong
Release Hudson, Yepez, Verhagen, Palacios, Fermin, Knizner, Zuniga, Rodriguez, Naile, Cabrera, Leahy, Romero, woodford, Thomas,
Build around the core of Nootbaar, Arenado, Donovan, Edman, Gorman, Wynn.
Wait and see on Burleson, gomez, Baker, Herrera, Walsh, Thompson, Pallante, Packy, Liberatore,
Stuck with Mikolas, Matz, Contreras
Sign some starters and relievers during free agency.
Id keep Hensley and Stratton id keep Hudson too and Woodford
Why in the hell would you trade Walker? He’s one of the few guys who looks like his upside is real. They’re not trading Goldy. I agree in principal on the idea, but I think it’s just as likely he gets an extension.
The next 3+ years Nado and Goldy will be at the corners for the Cardinals. For better or worse.
I want walker traded for a top pitching prospect or packaged for a top young starter. I don’t see it happening just what I want. I’m not high on him he has too many flaws. We can’t keep both walker and Goldy. Walker is absolutely unplayable in the outfield and can’t be a full time DH. Needs to be at first.
im amazed you could like gorman more than walker. walkers bat is better. sell high on gorman for a starter, walker is dh for 1.5 years then 1st base after goldy.
Gorman can play defense. Walker might be the worst defensive player in baseball history. The guy just doesn’t look like an athlete at all. Like having a robot in the outfield.
He’s also 21
See Aaron judge in his first half season
Exactly.. Gorman has been much better in year 2. Comparing Walker to guys who have been playing that position for a decade isn’t fair.
Did you ever think it might be because the outfield isn’t his normal position?
“Worst fielder in history”. LOL Did you ever watch Jose Canseco play the outfield? He was a train wreck!
I would say let him be the DH and play him at 1st to give Goldschmidt some days off. Or play him at 3rd and give Arenado some days off.
Let him work in his outfield skills in the offseason.
Good grief, the guy jumped from double A to the majors, and halfway through the season, you want to get rid of him?
Look at what happened when we gave up on Sandy Alacantra and randy arozarena too early.
You’re nuts if you think they’re going to trade off Walker
Walker has had enough time to adjust to outfield to at least be playable. It just doesn’t seem at all that he has the instincts or the athletic ability to play there. And you’re acting like I’m saying trade him for nothing. I’m saying flip him for a pitching prospect of equal value. That pitching prospect is just as likely to turn into something or nothing as he is. High risk high reward type situation. Like I said cardinals front office doesn’t have the balls to do it, especially after some of their recent blunders. But that’s just what I want.
You mean like Liberatore?
Walker hasn’t played in the outfield for a full season yet in his career. I think it’s too early to suggest he won’t be able to. However, I don’t think you’re as out of your mind as some other commenters seem to think. I get it. Would I trade him? I don’t think so. Though a top pitching prospect of equal value could be enticing. I do think he can be a killer with the bat in a few years and his new position will definitely be 1B eventually.
I’m sorry what baseball are you watching? “Baseball history” is the definition of extreme. He’s 21 at a new position for him while also only having played 50 something games. There are worse fielders than Jordan, I can assure you that.
Little Stevie Janowsky;
Walker is a 3B, as is Gorman.
Walker is a poor OF and is blocking young OF’s from getting playing time. Gorman is also a 3B and is blocking young 2B’s from getting playing time. They youngsters are both the immediate and intermediate future.
If Goldschmidt and Arenado were going to get that team over the top – they’d have done it by now. They are not a part of the 3-5 year future.
For sure move Arenado. The Yankees would be perfect for him, and a package of Oswald Peraza – a superior fielding SS which the Cardinals and their pitchers desperately need – along with 2 decent pitchers. Along with the money they save on Arenado’s future salaries that would be a great return). That would open up 3B for Walker and Gorman to share – also sharing DH.
If they’re not extending Goldschmidt then trading him might be best.
I don’t know what they do with Willson Contreras. No one is taking him on with that salary.
I do know that trading for pitching will only work if Mo is out of there and someone comes in to hire new pitching coaches and pitching advisors. You can’t suddenly have an entire pitching staff that sucks. No matter who they bring in to pitch, the Cardinals will ruin him.
Enough with trying to trade Jordan Walker. He’s going nowhere. In fact, just leave the following players off any trade talk:
Goldy, Walker, Arenado, Donovan, Winn, Gorman, Noot, Edman, Herrera. Cards can use anyone else to start acquiring starting pitchers. Plus, they can sign the Japanese FA starter that’s coming this off-season. There are lots of options to acquire starters, which is all they really need to be in the hunt for October again (next year).
Mitchell Page made Canseco look like a gold glover.
Evidently Samuel has not looked at the Yankees pitching depth. They really don’t have any to spare, and are barely putting together a 5 man rotation at the moment.
I trade Walker for Perez (Mia)
Honestly, the one change I would make would be to move Walker to the core section.
Idk about not blaming the manager or coaches. That should be a lot better team than 38-52. Don’t talk to me about not having pitching, either, when you see what the Reds have to send out
I laughed at this, because it’s true. Reds rotation is hot garbage, and they are rolling over the Cardinal’s
Wasn’t it two years ago, JoMo said 2023 was the year they’d be serious contenders? I think it was before that insane 17 game winning streak.
Regardless, this team appears only to be contending for it’s highest draft pick in years. And I have little faith any trades will warrant enough to get excited about the future.
Also fire all the pitching coaches, hitting coaches, manager and at least half of the other coaches in the organization.
Was Mozeliak in charge when they traded away Alcantara, Gallen, Adolis Garcia, etc.??? Was Mozeliak the guy who axed Mike Shildt ?? We know Mozeliak was the guy who signed Contreras to a grossly inflated contract and then was completely surprised when he had trouble , uh, actually catching. I think the main problem with this franchise is this overrated used car salesman hack named Mozeliak. I bet this team could turn itself around THIS season with the simple firing of Mozeliak and his ineffectual lap dog Marmol.
“I don’t think the coaches have any fault in this,”
In other words the minions have done exactly as they were told. Therefore this can’t be their fault. It’s all the players.
There is no way to take this clown seriously.
Guess you would throw all your staff under the bus in a media interview then?
Good grief.
Schildt was not a good manager and the contreras deal is fine
Same guy who traded for Goldschmidt and Arenado.
He was gifted those. They had to be traded and there were no other options.
No other teams wanted Arenado or Goldschmidt?
Wrong
The major culprits were already set at their positions at the time of the trade. Their contracts were too high for the rebuilding/small market clubs and they weren’t getting traded to anyone in the NL west. Arenado pretty much dictated where he was going. Goldschmidt was on an expiring contract and also showed signs of decline his previous year(which he showed his first year in STL as well). You can’t honestly believe the Rockies couldn’t have gotten a better return then Austin Gomber for Arenado and cash. The dbacks couldn’t have gotten a better off then Like Weaver and Carson Kelly for Goldschmidt if any other teams were seriously considering acquiring them. So yes, no one else wanted them sans may the giants and Padres and they were getting traded infra division.
Yeah all that is true, but hey he has been helpful in winning two world series.
Mozeliak needs to wake up and see what teams like the Braves and Astros are doing. He better start being more aggressive and finding better ways to evaluate talent and build on it.
@Ignorant son-of-a
Couldn’t agree more.
The one common connector in all the problems (recent history of terrible trades/giving up early on guys; the embarrassing roster construction; the head-scratching managerial moves; etc) is Mozeliak.
Imagining what the Cards could (should?) look like right now–as opposed to what is–is just mostly pain for Cards fans.
Until he goes, why bother rearranging the deck chairs? The damn thing’s just going to sink (again)…..
I have no confidence unless coaches are fired. Marmol also needs to go for anything to change. MO should also go but that’s not happening.
I remember hearing repeatedly this offseason that the Cardinals were taking a major risk with their rotation. The problem is they have no bridge between the current veterans and their current crop of pitching prospects and got burned. They should sell any veteran pitchers possible with an eye towards adding to said prospects.
The pitching has underperformed their career norms almost across the board. It’s hubris to pretend that has nothing to do with a new pitching coach who has never coached at any level.
Mozeliak’s focus should be on what his next job is going to be.
Only nine wins and 19 losses in one-run games, uncharacteristically bad defense with 4 current and a few former GG winners, and leading majors in blown saves (and probably holds) suggest the coaching/managing could have been better.
Blown saves in the ninth have a lot to do with that.
Paul Goldschmidt to the Mariners for George Kirby, Bryce Miller, and Andres Munoz.
No way it happens but I’d pull the trigger right now.
I’m happy to hear him say it’s not the coaches fault because the coaches aren’t on the field and the way they are playing is showing they aren’t motivated to play better.
I mean, Paul Goldschmidt to the Mariners for Logan Gilbert, Bryan Woo, and Paul Sewald.
Excellent trade idea you Ignorant Son of a B!
In order for the Cards to agree with to trade Goldy I think the Mariners need to also send prospect bust in Julio Rodriguez.
Oh and of course M’s need to take on all of Goldys contract. Only fair.
Why stop there? Insist they throw in Julio too.
I mean, Paul Goldschmidt to the Mariners for Sterling Hitchcock, er, I mean Hancock.
Plz give us pepper shaker for Bryan Woo and Taylor Trammell
Thank you so much
Zero chance. He will cost you Kirby, Woo, Miller and one more top prospect.
I don’t know who’s crazier, you or me haha
Both!
Anyone that’s willing to pretend Taylor trammel is worth more than a bag of feces is pretty crazy.
I hope you are joking… Goldy might bring back a top 100 prospect and not one who close to cracking the MLB rotation.
Why would the Cardinals want Trammell?
I figure he’ll fit right in with the other 5 AAAA outfielders they have over there. Highly coveted!
In all seriousness I doubt he’s anything more than a wait and see in Tacoma at this point.
I do think the M’s and Cards could be great trade partners. The Cards need young, high ceiling starting pitching and the M’s could upgrade the lineup with several different guys on that team.
It would take a lot more to get Lars than say Burleson or Carlson but I do think Woo could be a good starting point in any deal between the two. Not sure if the cards would rather hang on to Noot and keep him with Nady and Goldy? That’s what I would do. But a Mariner fan can dream and we have plenty to offer in trade talks
Sodomojo
I agree with some of what you are saying. I think Seattle is a good trading partner for sure. And I like Trammel as a fit for the Cardinals assuming he doesn’t cost much.
What about Gorman for Gilbert or Kirby? That would be fun. Gorman can play 2b and 3b both are team needs for Seattle. Huge upside with Gorman I don’t want to trade him but for an ace ok sure.
@King I would consider Logan for Gorman, Carlson, and Hicks. Maybe.
Cardinals would laugh. Logan for Carlson plus Verhagen is fair.
Based off your previous comments, SODOMJO, the Mariners could get a good haul off their Asian players at this point… Might as well!
I’d love to see us with Tommy Edman as well. Good scrappy versatile guy (Servais and Jerry love guys like him) who could serve as a replacement for the still ailing Dylan Moore, but with a bit more playing time.
Tommy isn’t going anywhere. He’s an all star level second basement and years of control. We will give you Carlson for Woo 1 for 1 flip and call it a day.
Yeah Edman can play 2b and backup Crawford as well as some outfield but he’s not as valuable as an outfielder his defense isn’t that good.
Edman for Bryce Miller? I think I could do that.
Edman had a 6 WAR last year. Try Edman for Gilbert, Kirby and Woo.
It’s a “what have you done for me lately” when trading. That 6 WAR is past its sell date.
He’s had a down year because cardinals have experimented with him everywhere. He’s a 5 plus WAR easy if he’s an everyday second baseman.
Stevie think he’s more like a 3 or 4 win player easy if he’s not playing center.
I think selling Edman now would be selling low. I would prefer to get DeJongs money off the books too.
@Steinbrenner What “Asian” players are you referring to ?? Shohei Ohtani is not here yet, and Ichiro Suzuki has been retired for awhile now.
Mo is the king of all idiots
gorman is not special. his ops is below donovans, who can play 6 positions. gorman could not get gilbert. he could potentially get a dylan cease for 2 years.
Exactly, Gorman plus a prospect would get Cease.
Love seeing the Cardinal fan base turn on one another. Kudos
It’s really pretty simple.
Trade for Cease
Trade Walker/TON for Perez (MIA)
Trade Monty/Flaherty for 2024 pieces
2024
Cease
Perez
Hence
Mikolas
???
Who do they give up for Cease?
Gorman and a middling prospect
Cease doesn’t get moved. He especially doesn’t get moved for a bat. White Sox are desperate for pitching in 2024.
This confirms that fanboys are into fantasy.
Lmfao! Hahaha lol
Cards ain’t getting Eury.
Sounds like they’re “waving the white flag.” Might as well admit it and call everyone out. Marmol has had no problem publicly calling players out this year.
Still fun to laugh at other ridiculous trade proposals.
2 teams I’m not trading with cause I’ll get smoked
Cardinals
Rays
Who says No
Baltimore gets: Montgomery & Flaherty
St. Louis gets: Kjerstad
The Orioles before you finished your proposal.
That’s an ok trade prospect But I think the cardinals would want two more decent prospects.
They would literally be the orioles best pitchers lmao
For a third of the season. Rentals don’t have that level of value.
By WAR, Montgomery would be #2 and Flaherty would be #4 if they acquired both guys. I’d be very surprised if we traded pitching for another outfielder.
Could we fire MO and hire Whitey Herzog for a few months to clean things up?
You are brain dead, like Whitey. Maybe dig up Red. Anything better than Oli
Mo looks sweaty and drunk in the picture.
To say that none of what has happened is the coaches’ fault is daft and disrespectful to both the players and the fans. The leader of any team or business must bear some modicum of responsibility for the shortcomings of those in his charge.
MO does not have the marbles to pull off a good trade. He will get owned come trade deadline. Too bad he won’t trade himself.
He pulled off two very good deadline trades just last year, and despite how they initially looked, his 2022 deadline trades also worked out well.
Sorry, I meant both last year and in 2021.
Focus on 2024 is not waving the white flag, it’s more like signing a surrender agreement onboard a US battleship. Why can’t they admit that this season is a bust and they’re not parting with prospects to right the ship? To potentially get a greater return for the rental players on the roster?
A 4.20 ERA is only a “nice season” for Stratton compared to his career worst season last year. Overall, he’s been a disappointment like most of the bullpen this year.
Hanging on to Bader was not a mistake! He provided excellent overall value in CF for years and then brought back a year of a very good starter in Montgomery plus whatever he’ll bring in trade (assuming he gets moved).
A package of players centered around Casey Mize for Gorman OR some combo of Winn with Yepez, O’Neill, Burleson (add subtract from either side). These two teams have opposite strengths and weaknesses (Tigers have young pitching, St Louis has young hitting). They make sense on paper as trade partners.
Mize has barely pitched in almost two years. Why among all possible options would they pursue him so aggressively?
Mize is back on the mound and will be ready for next year. He’s proven himself as at least a number three starter already and over a number of seasons. Gorman is currently having a good season, Winn is just a prospect and the others are unproven. Not sure why your GM wouldn’t take that call with your season being a waste, him stating they are getting ready for next year and the high cost of pitching right now. Pitching costs. Like I said expand the deal to include others, but don’t undervalue a young pitcher like that.
Someone who has been injured that long needs to prove himself again before he makes for a quality trade target. You can’t just assume that he’s still a #3 starter at this point.
First off, remove Masyn Winn from any type of crazy trade talk. Winn is the Cardinals’ first decent SS prospect since Garry Templeton in the late 1970’s. He’s going nowhere but to St Louis. And keep this in mind, it would take a LOT to pry Nolan Gorman away from Moe’s claws, guarantee you. Cards do have tons of good young hitters, lots to choose from if you’re a trading partner.
See above. Your argument about these two players applies to Mize equally. Pitching costs!
St Louis is such a great organization that I have no doubt they will sell off a couple starters for value at the deadline, then fill the holes with a couple trades or FA’s this offseason and promote some young guy like McGreevy or Hjerpe who will end up as the next great thing. You can win with a great offence and midfling pitching, just look at Baltimore, Arizona and Tampa (mostly due to injury). One bad year doesn’t make a bad organization.
i think 5.5 years of Gorman plus a 2nd tier pitching prospect like Mautz could get cardinals Mize and skubal together (3.5 years of each).
You’re dreaming dude! Gorman is a future DH, albeit a good one. Skubal might win a Cy Young sometime in the hear future. I wouldn’t give him up for both of your Nolan’s!
i think the tigers are willing to move their timeline back a couple years.
He will never be a top 50 player with his defensive ability. Be real buddy.
If they do, no one will see Walker playing the outfield like Garcia and Arozarena do as he is definitely not a valid MLB outfielder…. but… I agree with your point as to his bat.
He’s still developing his defense out there, but yes, if there isn’t a significant improvement by next year, he’ll probably be the primary DH for as long as Arenado is still on the team.
How much fun was it to watch all those former Cardinals in the All Star game? Guys for whom they got very little production in return. And Garcia, if I remember correctly they just gave him away for next to nothing. These are all moves that Mo made. I’m not sure he should be trusted with a regroup, a rebuild, a retool, or any other label you want to put on it.
Stop harping so much on the few bad trades that Mo and Girsch have made and realize that they’ve made many more that they won or were good for both sides.
Yes, giving away Garcia and trading away Arozarena, Alcantara, and Gallen were regrettable (although Ozuna did still provide decent production for two years at a time that the Cardinals otherwise had issues with their OF offense).
However, they have also made many good trades for guys like Freese, Holliday, Edwin Jackson, Dotel, Rzepczynski, Mujica, Lackey, Heyward, O’Neill, Goldschmidt, Gallegos, Arenado, Lester, Happ, Quintana, Montgomery, etc.
Everyone on this site overrates their teams players/prospects so dang much. Every response is “Team A laughs and hangs up”. None of us know jack squat
As a former longtime Cards fan that relegated them to my 2nd team, I’m very thankful I’m not as invested in comments like this from Mo. This is hard to watch. This is now a second rate organization in a very weak division. Leadership that has squandered its inheritance. Mo should be fired. The coaching staff should be fired.
Once that is done, they need to sell anything and everything of value (except Walker and Gorman) to kickstart a long term rebuild under a regime with some actual vision and talent for development.
Wow, way to overreact to one bad year after 15 consecutive winning seasons and 4 consecutive trips to the playoffs with a roster that still has an excellent offensive!
If the Red Sox were run like you suggest after every single bad year (2012, 2014, 2015, 2020, and 2022), they wouldn’t have had anywhere near the amount of success in the last decade that they have. They even went from last place with 93 losses in 2012 to winning the 2013 World Series!
Not that it’s likely for the Cardinals to repeat that, but they can easily make their way back into contention at the very least next year with the talent they have both on the field and in the front office.
Also, fun fact, the last time the Cardinals finished in last place in 1990 (which they have a decent chance to still avoid this year), they finished in second place with a winning record the next year.
A seven year cycle seems to
happen every day
I walk up the hill and then
descend in every way
First off we finally fire Mo and his over his head Marmol. Amazing when Molina retires it exposes what an idiot Marmol was?
As a Reds fan, it really sucks to see the sparrows and twigs struggling.. NOT!
Lots of Reds fans now, bandwagoneers I think you call him. Half of them didn’t even know Cincinnati still had a team before the winning streak. Bring back Tommy B.
Meanwhile, the Reds have three rookies starting on a regular basis that can play multiple positions, and an old man at first base that can still rake… Louy is gonna be down for the count for a number of years to come..
In this thread Cardinals’s fans vastly over value a bunch of players who make up a really bad team.
Only (most of) the pitching is bad. The offense is spectacular, and the majority of the defense is very good.
They should sign Gorman, Walker, and Herrera to long-term contracts. These would be similar to the Braves. Herrera is the future, and Contreras can DH or rest when Ivan starts. DeJong has trade value now, so do Montgomery, Flaherty, and Stratton. Maybe Yepez and Burleson could be part of a package. I would love to see the Cards cut bait on VerHagen. Matz was a horrible signing. Call up Winn and Graceffo. Wouldn’t hurt and allows you to see a glimpse of ’24
The central divisions are moribund. If the redbirds were in the AL East they would be firing their GM and tearing down the entire roster. Eliminate divisions.
The problem is that they need pitching for next year. They won’t be able to get controllable arms without giving up Gorman, Walker, Arenado, or Goldschmidt
I wonder if a swap of Dylan Carlson and Paul DeJong for a Michael Kopech and Aaron Bummer would make sense for the Cards/CWS. Carlson/Kopech have underperformed but still have potential higher ceilings. Bummer and DeJong fill needs for now for both clubs. This way the Cards have controllable assets and the CWS can use their other trade chips on young almost ready starting pitching for 2024.
I still haven’t seen an update on Jordan Montgomery who left Friday’s game with a hamstring issue. Anyone hear anything this week?
Let me just say I want a full-blown, “down to the studs” rebuild around Walker, Gorman, Winn and Hererra – and trading both Goldy and Arenado really puts all the young players in their best defensive positions.
But we know that won’t happen.
So, here’s my predictions for my rebuild vs. Mo’s “re ballyhooed rebuild.
Full Rebuild 2024:
C = Ivan Herrera
1B = Jordan Walker
2B = Brendan Donovan
SS = Masyn Winn
3B = Nolan Gorman
LF = Alec Burleson
RF = Lars Nootbaar
CF = Dylan Carlson
DH = Willson Contreras
Mo Reload 2024:
C = Willson Contreras
1B = Paul Goldschmidt
2B = Brendan Donovan
SS = Tommy Edman
3B = Nolan Arenado
LF = Jordan Walker
RF = Lars Nootbaar
CF = Dylan Carlson
DH = Nolan Gorman
Really great point made about this year lining up as a seller’s market. Hopefully we can leverage that to some rotation and bullpen help. I don’t really care who they trade or don’t trade, I still have some confidence that Cards HQ just got caught flat-footed this year and they will turn it around. Go Cards.
MO gets owned by the Florida teams during trades. Let’s just stay away from those 2, and start now with Flaherty.