Only four teams have a lower winning percentage than the Cardinals’ .413 mark, as the Cards’ struggles have been one of the biggest surprises of the 2023 season. With a 31-44 record, time is running out for St. Louis to make a push towards a playoff spot — the club is 11 games out of a National League wild card berth, and four games behind the Pirates just to reach fourth place in the NL Central.
Barring a major surge, it’s looking like the Cardinals will post their second losing record of the last 24 seasons. This remarkable run of consistency seems to be fueling John Mozeliak’s approach to the upcoming trade deadline, as the president of baseball operations ruled out the idea that the Cardinals would pursue a full rebuild.
“I would hope the Cardinals are not allowed to rebuild,” Mozeliak told reporters (including Jeff Jones of the Belleville News-Democrat), in reference to the “pressure” St. Louis fans put on the team to remain perpetual contenders. This is the only scenario that Mozeliak seems to have ruled out in regards to the trade deadline, since “as we sit here on the 23rd of June, we still don’t know exactly which path we’ll walk. From a front office standpoint, we have to start preparing.”
The likeliest scenario would seem to be looking for “some deals made that … maybe could help now, but also could help in the future, or that maybe could be more of a reshuffling,” the PBO said. Jones feels the Cardinals will take this route whether they can get back into the race or not, as a nod to the unsettled nature of the club’s pitching staff. Adam Wainwright is retiring after the season, both Jack Flaherty and Jordan Montgomery will be free agents, and Steven Matz’s rotation future is far from guaranteed given his ongoing struggles, so it makes sense that the Cardinals will be looking to obtain some controllable pitching. St. Louis already made a trade in this mold last summer, obtaining Montgomery from the Yankees in exchange for Harrison Bader.
A similar pitching-for-position player swap would make sense on paper, as the Cardinals again have a seeming glut of players in need of regular at-bats. That said, St. Louis isn’t going to be moving any core pieces (i.e. Paul Goldschmidt, Nolan Arenado) or any of their true blue-chip young players (such as Jordan Walker) since the team is looking to reload for 2024, not rebuild. It can be safely assumed that the likes of Tommy Edman, Willson Contreras, or Lars Nootbaar are also staying put, but it remains to be seen if any of the other position players have enough value to bring back a noteworthy arm on the trade market.
Flaherty and/or Montgomery could also be trade chips, if the Cardinals did opt to punt on 2023 and look to move some pending free agents. As noted, it doesn’t seem like the Cards will fall into a strict buyer or seller mode, which Mozeliak cited as two of the other routes for the team heading into the deadline. The other option to “hold pat, do nothing” doesn’t appear to be too likely, since Mozeliak said bluntly that “we know we’re not where we want to be, and we know we have to make some changes.”
The first move should be firing Marmol. For the team he’s been given to manage, he’s done an awful job and doesn’t seem too concerned. The NL Central is a weak division, but that doesn’t guarantee that he can lead them back to where they could (and should) be. I also don’t understand why Nootbaar seems to be off-limits for a trade. I guess it’s more about his name than his actual playing, but I wouldn’t mind moving him or O’Neill for pitching.
Mo should be the first one fired.
Yep
I agree but you know that’s not gonna happen. He and Dewitt are like bosom buddies. I I honestly would love for them to do a soft rebuild. or even a minor rebuild. Trade Monty and Flaherty since both their contracts are up at the end of the season. Deal either Oneil or Carlson although neither has much value at this point. I’d even try and find a deal for Contraras which might sound crazy, but we have a catcher who’s mlb ready now at triple a, and he’s raking down there. He just has to get a lot better behind the plate. Bottom line is we need a number of changes. I just hope Mozeliak doesn’t move one player and call it a day like he does in the offseason. He’s always content to have a pretty good team but never wants to make our team great, or doesn’t have an understanding of how to make it great.
We honestly needed a season like this. It’s the only way to force Mozeliak to be proactive. The problem is they don’t evaluate talent well and always sign stop gap free agents. So we’ll have to see what kind of deals he makes.
The Cardinals have major structural problems in their organization – starting with their pitching philosophy and subsequently how they work with pitchers. Bringing in Willson Contreras to handle their pitching staff was the clincher.
I don’t think the Cardinals or the majority their fans realize how deep this disfunction goes. The only thing John Mozeliak has in common with Branch Rickey (and Cardinals baseball) is bow ties. It’s not just the pitching or the managing – the Cardinals no longer know how to win .They’re not disciplined enough to routinely do the little things that used to give the ML team a leg up on the competition. For decades the organization was known for teaching this to players in their farm system. It’s just not there anymore and will take a major restructuring to recreate that atmosphere. There has been too much short-cutting and too many short-term “plugging holes” for years now – instead of building teams full of players that know how to win and will take the necessary actions every game.
I haven’t cast a vote yet for the All-Star game. But I’d stand in line for days, with little to eat or drink, in 100 degree temperatures to vote for THAT.
What do you mean mo should be fired? DeWitt want to hand him a 10 year contract extension for trading Sandy Alcantara alone….
From the outside looking in, it looks like Marmol has lost the room. Once that happens, you might as well pull the trigger on a change.
All I can say Mo is when something in the room stinks, check under your own armpits first…
C’mon Samuel you’re starting to sound just like ChatGPT. GIGO.
Yeah, he’s gonna figure out a way to sell Adolis Garcia to the Texas Rangers for 30 pieces of silver… trade Randy Arozarena to the Rays for Matthew libratore cause bill DeWitt is to cheap to hire a translator, and fire Mike Shildt because of it? Then finally when there’s no one else left to blame well have to see what stupid moves he pulls next after signing Wilson Contreras and Steven matz to add to the list of Brett Cecil, Dexter Fowler, and Mike Leake? The missed extention for Lance Lynn… trading away Sandy Alcantara and Zac Gallen for 2 years of Marcel ozuna… the hits keep coming and coming….
Hi ignorant som of a….
Wow… wtf did I just read? What a blabbering barrel of scotch…
Way to go, Mo!
Second move should be putting Wainwright in the bullpen for mop up work.
Gorman for a pitcher would be a logical move. Maybe a deadline deal to the rays for one of their minor league arms
Gorman is going nowhere. He is a stud. Power lefty bats like his are rare. Trade Montgomery, Flaherty, Edman and Hicks. Maybe Mo can get the Marlins to take Contreras if he pays half. Restock the farm with young pitching.
No one wants Flaherty.
Flaherty is a good pitcher, injured a lot. I want to try and keep him. Other teams will want him, seeing what is out there. He is still not healthy so we have to hope for that despite he is pulled from tomorrow’s London game.
Trade his woke Ass to LA?
I love Jack… ❤️
Trade all the guys on expiring deals that no one really wants, that will get you some great returns.
They will most likely have to make a few tough choices. Especially in the outfield if they want good young pitching.
That’s not going to restock the farm with anything. That’s kind of the problem with this, “retool”, plan for them. Unless they manage to develop some people that aren’t super high profile right now, they need to do more than just retool if they want to get back to being competitive.
Tommy is the heart of the team he isn’t going anywhere
If Edman is the heart of the team, then that says a lot about Wainwright, Goldschmidt, and Arenado.
You still bitter the Mets are a terrible and old team?
I’m not a Mets fans. If I was why would I choose a this name?
Cohen needs to go do some cocaine with Aj Preller… he’d be doing a better job at blowing his money that way than buying a championship?
Tommy should be the first one traded.
A package built around Gorman to the Tigers for Casey Mize and more? Mize is out but will be back next year. Solid young starter.
lol. no
All you Cardinal fans thought Carlson was untouchable too, a couple years ago. And now . . . .
Casey Mize, age 26, has had a Tommy John surgery in 2022, but also had a back surgery in 2022, according to a MLB.com report. Under these circumstances, I doubt the Cardinals would consider a trade of Gorman for him.
You’re getting “all you Cardinal fans” mixed up with the guy who makes the decisions.
The guy you might want to take a Hail Mary on might be Shane Bieber. You might be able to get him for 2 of those hitters plus a Low A pitcher maybe. Bieber looks to me like a guy who definitely needs a change of scenery and who knows, Maybe he gets his form back. Right now he looks like a guy who’s looking for a plane ticket. And the Guardians are a pathetic hitting team.
Dumb next
Beware the Central is weak, The Cardinals are notorious also for 2nd half streaks. They here’s no way we trade Donovan, Edman, Goldy, Arenado, or Gorman or Walker. Pretty much anyone else is on the table.
Goldschmidt for a pitcher is the logical move. Moving Gorman makes no sense unless you’re going full rebuild.
Playing in the central makes it weird. They will likely keep 2024 free agents because any team will have a shot at the division next year. But at the same time, no team in the division looks like it will be Braves-caliber this decade.
Beware of the Reds!
Don’t count the Cubs out.
This is a year of major trouble, the Funk started in the spring, a catcher that’s not a catcher isn’t helping anything, nobody wants O’Neil or Flaherty head games, don’t want to go there. BUT Goldschmidt must go, our OF Is bogged down they need to push for pitching. If this doesn’t happen it will be a non playoff year, DeWitt and MO won’t spend a dime like previous years, go big!!! Bring back a winner
Kind of amazing to watch this kind of hate for a franchise that’s done nothing but win for a bad start. Mistakes were made to be sure namely roster construction. As a Cubs fan it’s surprising. I’m sure injuries played a big part in why some Pitchers didn’t make it and the hitters passed them by. But trading Goldshmidt and Arenado? C’mon. Really? It doesn’t look like their year but it really doesn’t look like anyone else’s in the division either. Any team that wins this division isn’t going anywhere fast. Why I keep saying the Cubs should be playing their kids instead of trotting out bums like Wisdom, Mastrobuoni and the disappointing Mancini. Move on and see what’s on the farm. Throw Waino a nice retirement party and bring up some P’s and at least see what you’ve got. You might be surprised. I know the Cubs were at the end of last year.
“But trading Goldshmidt and Arenado? C’mon. Really?’
–
Unclemike1526;
Not so far fetched an idea….assuming they’d consent to leave.
1. In Total Salary those 2 are eating up a bit below 41% of the Cardinals Total Payroll in 2023.
2. They’re older and no longer playing as they did in their prime.
3. Goldschmidt is a FA after the 2024 season.
4. They’re blocking future Cardinals core players from playing their natural positions. Both Gorman and Walker are 3B’s that are playing out of position and hurting the team doing so. One should be at 3B in 2024 with the other moving to 1B.
5. In turn, Gorman and Walker are blocking other Cardinals players from playing their natural positions.
This is what I spoke about in a post I made above. The FO is doing what is expedient, not what’s right. Paying big bucks to veteran (and declining) players in order for a team to “get over the top” seldom – if ever – works. Look at the Blue Jays.
MLB is a Young Man’s Game. Teams that win have multiple young players that get better during the season and for years beyond. The Cardinals are strangling many of their young position players from growing…..and that’s before we get to the pitching and the way the Cardinals play the game….i.e. fundamentals.
Best response in this feed imo. I’m a hard core cardinal fan, and we’ve had 2 losing seasons in the last 24. We looked good in spring training, and have stunk since. But let’s not overreact. Goldy and Arenado are rocks most teams wish they could have. Gorman, Wynn (SS) and Walker look like long term keepers. Most organizations would love to have Edmon and Donovan. Helsley is good. We just lack pitching. We are having a terrible year (it happens), but this same roster was picked to win the division only 3 months ago. Play the long game.
But yes, Marmol has likely lost the clubhouse . And it looks like we miss Mike Maddox. Turner Ward hasn’t impressed either.
Life long Cards fan here! If anyone watched both of the London games the problem with this team is obvious. Both starters for the Cards got shelled. First game I believe the bullpen gave up 1 run and in game 2 the bullpen was a rock besides a scant run in the 9th. If this team had any starting pitching they would AT LEAST be .500 right now. I love Waino, but he should have retired last year. Flaherty walks the world. Monty gets no run support. Libby is not as good as we thought. And Miles is really a solid #3 pitcher in a good teams rotation. If anyone thinks we are getting anything of real value for say Yepez, Burleson, Carlson or O’Neill, you are crazy. It’s gonna hurt, but the conversations need to start with players like Wynn, McGreevy, Herrera and Gomez. Those are the guys we’ll have to part with to get a Beiber or someone of that caliber. If I were Mo I’d be gun shy to after the failed trades for Ozuna, as well as moving Gallen and Garcia and Arozarena, but it’s gotta be done to give this core a shot
I don’t think they will give up Winn.
I’m not giving up ANY of what you mentioned for Bieber. Have you LOOKED at his raw numbers? Or are you just over paying for the name?
You can tell what teams will be 7 years out? How many MLB teams have tried to hire you?
Pirates, tigers at moment
Samuel-This is what I keep saying about the Cubs. They keep talking about having a Farm System. But the fans keep saying get this guy , Get that guy, Extend Happ, Extend Stroman, Pick up Hendricks option. Let the Farm System play out. The Cubs finally have one with decent hitting and pitching prospects aplenty. Let it play out. Stop thinking short term and start thinking long term. This is what happens when you put guys IN THE WAY. You end up with a horrible roster. For all the hype about Arenado and Goldschmidt what did it actually get you? Where are the titles? Trading them at the deadline won’t get you what you deserve for those 2 guys. Especially if you want them to drop no trade clauses. Somebody is going to have to pay for that either in an extension or money traded with them if you want big time prospects. Now like Hoyer you have what we in Chicago call a mess. And trading Contreras is laughable. Nobody wanted him from the Cubs, Nobody is going to want him from the Cardinals either.
Sorry, The Contreras part wasn’t meant for Samuel. it was meant for the others who even thought of it.
That’s Crazy to trade your best and most faithful player.
Why not??? Gorman has only been potential for years now.
Too many won’t read the sarcasm here.
They’re really hard to watch. Sorry to say it but they are going to have to trade talent for pitching. One of Donovan or Edman will probably be going elsewhere.
Tommy isn’t going anywhere. Carlson, O’Neil, Dejong, and maybe one of Gorman/Donovan are the likely trade candidates from the offense.
Gorman is young and a potential 35 homer guy he’s not going anywhere.
Tommy is only 28 and was a 6 WAR player last year. Also can play anywhere. Too valuable to trade for a team that wants to contend next year.
Edman is type of talent it might take to bring back the type of pitching they need. Donovan, Herrera or any of there current outfielders could be dealt. Flaherty, Hicks and Montgomery are Chips they either sign or lose so, get something.
You have to give to get.
It’s taken a lot of giving but the Reds do look like it’s finally paying off. Reds buyers and Cards sellers, who would have thought that in March?
Donovan and Edman are redundant.
Not if Edman becomes a full-time CF. Statistically speaking, he is the best defensive outfielder on the team. If his future is CF, then he’s not going anywhere in a trade.
Long term Edman has more value on the infield, he has an infielders arm.
Brett Gardner and Harrison bader were/are great defenders with noodle arms. Range and read are more important
They traded Bader so…
What’s your point boy
That long term Edman has more value as an infielder young lady.
Bout time the cards finally suck. Been so good for so long. They could use a couple years down in the cellar. (Although I expect this to last all of this one season. They usually reload/rebuild quickly)
The first change should be Mozeliak to the unemployment line.
^^^ This. The ineffective roster building starts at the top and until the front office gets a shakeup nothing will change that has any impact.
The second change should be hiring you to clean the toilets.
We can only hope, but I think that as long as the ownership seems to be concerned with attendance and bottom-line profits Moz isn’t going anywhere.
The Cardinals just proved that they can lose on both sides of the Atlantic. They’re now 10 games out of the division and 11.5 out of the wild card. The front office is kidding themselves if they don’t sell at the deadline for as much young pitching as they can find.
They will sell. What I wouldn’t expect is trading away anyone who is signed for 2024 and the team believes will help them win.
In other words no Goldschmidt trade.
I think saying they will not trade Goldschmidt is just not true. Not definite but if they can get a couple top prospects for him he will be gone
I would like them to trade him really. But I would be shocked if it happens. They want him to go into the HOF wearing a Cardinals cap.
Trade with Seattle
Donovan
Montgomery
ONeill
Hicks
For
Gilbert
Comp pick
This gives the Mariners a 2b for now and the future. ONeill can fill in as a 4th outfielder and DH in 2023 and potentially take over for Teoscar Hernandez in 2024. Montgomery replaces Gilbert and then Ray replaces Montgomery next year and Hicks helps the pen
Cards get a guy with top of the rotation potential for years to come and a pick to make up for losing one signing Contreras.
Seattle has zero interest in this trade.
Seattle would get a huge upgrade at 2b. An upgrade at DH with potential for more. A pitcher to replace Gilbert for the season in Montgomery and pen help in Hicks.
It pretty much fills all of their holes. It makes a lot of sense for them.
Gilbert is the best player in this transaction by miles and Seattle is contending. They aren’t give up a young TOR pitcher with years of control for a bunch of spare parts.
They can just trade for a 2B straight up without giving up a great starter. This trade heavily favors StL.
Gilbert isn’t that much better than Donovan.
Gilbert has 7 WAR in 2 and a half years.
Donovan has 4.3 WAR in a year and a half.
Either you are over rating Gilbert or undereating Donovan. They are not that different.
Gilbert is the number 4 starter in Seattle. WAR says this is a fair trade offer. Trade simulator says its a fair trade offer. Why would Seattle not want to do this? Montgomery basically replaces Gilbert for 2023 and then Ray can replace Montgomery. Seattle needs a 2b Wong is playing terribly and ONeill going back home makes a lot of sense too because Hernandez is a soon to be free agent.
This trade makes a ton of sense.
King of Cards, if Gilbert is such a middling player, why are you so gung ho on getting him? Why not Flexen instead? Everyone knows Gilbert is a young, valuable potential TOR pitcher and you can’t get that for a useful utility guy and a rental who is worse than Gilbert. And I’m a Cardinals fan. O’Neil and Hicks have practically no value
Probably too much leaving St. Louis for Logan and a comp pick. Right idea though but that’s a heavy number of players for one coming back in a “retool” season. I really like Donavan and Monty. I think they are both really solid players and contributors.
Pipe dream,King(?). Seattle will not trade Gilbert. The M’s are in the long game, not win it now.
Gilbert has a career ERA of 3.84 and a career FIP of 3.58.
That’s solid. Its not that great.
Gilbert and Donovan really aren’t that different in value. WAR says so. Trade simulator says so. What stats are you looking at???
Stats don’t necessarily determine an organizational need. M’s won’t trade Gilbert.
Too bad the Cards don’t get those competitive balance picks anymore.
Not sure the Mariners are interested in a utility guy having a down year, a reliever who can’t find the plate with a map and a sherpa, and an OF who can’t stay healthy. Montgomery, however, could help them now.
Donovan isn’t having a down year he’s playing solid and had some bad luck in April with the umps and balls finding holes.
Hicks is closing right now again bad start which unlike Donovan wasn’t luck but he’s pitching really well again.
ONeill would fill in as a 4th outfielder and DH which appears to be a need for Seattle. He’s better than Pollock I think and he could potentially replace Hernandez in 2024.
They can get Marco and some cash back for O’Neill.
That trade would not interest Seattle because we don’t need the pitching, we need some legit hitters. The two batters you propose would not do the trick. Who knows if O’Neill ever gets back to that 2021 season form; that bad back of his looks like it might never get any better. Donovan is decent but he’s not the big bopper/or high avg hitter we need. That would be Goldschmidt.
Cubs proved to get a P you have to trade multiple hitters. All of you that are dreaming that your hitters are going to bring back qualified Major League Starters are just fooling yourselves. The Cubs had to give up half their farm system for 1/2 a year of Aroldis Chapman. I don’t know what you think you’re getting back, But it’s not going to be a huge return. And that Casey Mize for who was it? Really doesn’t matter. That ain’t gonna happen except in Fantasy Land. Besides if your hitters are all that, How come you can’t win? Pitchers aren’t cheap.
Donovan is definitely a high average guy. Very little power but he hits for average.
Would probably take Gorman instead of Donovan.
The ground work for this failure lands at the feet of Mo and DeWallet. The only people who seemed to think our pitching was fine are the two guys who can actually do something about it.
I find it shocking after a decade+ of making sure the pitching staff was in order to at minimum be league averageish that they’ve failed in this for this season. Maybe it’ll turn around. But we’re not deep in the minors with pitching the ways we’ve been in the past.
This is the first season basically since I was a kid (Im 51) that I just don’t care. This team does very little correctly or even well. It’s not going to turn around this season, even if they play better in the 2nd half.
Firing Marmol is certainly justified. Problem is, that would be Mo’s FOURTH manager to hire and very few front offices get away with that. They never should have fired Schildt, but that’s water under the bridge. I don’t see Mo admitting that mistake. In most markets all this would cost Mo HIS job. But St. Louis isn’t most markets.
The Cardinals are rudderless for the first time in decades and it’s bizzare to watch.
Saw a Bleacher Report article suggesting a Kyle Harrison for Paul Goldschmidt and Jordan Montgomery trade. I wonder if that trade could potentially happen
Who is Kyle Harrison?
A fictional ballplayer BR made up just like their news.
SF Giants’ top pitching prospect. Pretty talented arm, but has trouble with control.
Step away from the Bleacher Report.
no one, and I do mean NO ONE is trading the reigning MVP AND the best pitcher on the staff for a prospect… bleacher report is ran by 5 year Olds playing mlb the show baseball if they suggested this
It would be weird seeing Goldschmidt in a Giants uniform, but not as weird as seeing Chris Paul in a Warriors uniform.
Step one is firing Marmol and much of the coaching staff. MO should step back. DeWitt needs to find a much better GM.
Goldschmidt is wasted on this team. Trade him to Philadelphia or Arizona for a top pitching prospect.
Pitchers aren’t going to magically appear on the roster. The Cardinals aren’t signing multiple starters as free agents. Teams aren’t trading good pitching for the players the Cardinals are willing to deal. Trading Goldschmidt and Arenado to contenders for good young pitchers is the fastest path back to contention.
I don’t see this team contending in 2024 without a major retooling. Build around the young players.
Goldschmidt and Arenado both have full no trade contracts so I’d say they aren’t moving.
Goldy and Nolan have no trade clauses. They love Saint Louis too much to leave.
Do you really think they would turn down a trade to a contender? That’s why I specified contender. I think you’re overestimating how much fun they are currently having. I also think Goldschmidt would love to play in a World Series before he retires.
Arenado is one of the reasons they’re in this mess and he’s owed over $100 million. Not too many teams would be lining up for him unless they got a deal like the Cards got from the Rockheads.
Goldy can probably choose his contending team after next season.
I think you’re greatly underestimating Arenado’s value
The decline has started. He needs to put in a lot of good work just to come close to 2021 stats.
See how many teams line up if he’s made available.
They will be looking for the sweetheart Nolan and cash for not much deal. This is moot anyway since Arenado can just veto it.
Arenado of the intense need to win will not veto a trade from an embarrassing train wreck to a contender. He probably already regrets not opting out of his contract.
Start with a new coaching staff and go from there. Goldschmidt/Arenado/Contreras/Edman/Nootbar/Walker/Gorman should be kept. Get whatever you can for Donovan/DeJong/O’Neill/Carlson/Burleson/Flaherty/Montgomery/Matz/whatever is tradeable in the bullpen
After Nuking the Catcher that they signed for 5 years, the Cardinal fans can only wait with abated breath.
As an outsider who has always liked the Cards, other than the Contreras shameful debacle, the fact this manager dressed down his players in the press is anti-productive. It seems to me it’s not the players who have gone bad, it’s management. When you have a pimple, squeeze the head out and the pimple goes away.
That episode alone demands someone be fired. It was a humiliating embarrassment for the team. This management teams deflates more players than they inspire.
Don’t know why people think they’re moving Goldy/ Arenado.. they’re not
Herrera
DeJong
For
Trevor Rogers
This Mo chap has a lot of heavy lifting to do in the offseason. As it stands right now the current projected 2024 roster looks similar to this sad edition. The rental players the Redbirds seem keen to offer up don’t hold significant value. If the brain trust is trying to sell the idea that trading pure rentals will provide a significant impact for the 2024 roster and beyond they are mistaken.. 2024 Goldy will be in his age 36 season and Arrenado age 33 season, can’t afford to punt many more seasons. Ole Mo is probably a bit gun-shy after the Gallen/Alcantara fleecing, but his chance to change the roster in a meaningful way will be by trading significant value the he does not currently want to trade.
What happened to The Cardinals Way?
Still the Cardinal way, a losing season every 15 years or so. If they don’t rebound next year ask the same question, maybe you would have a point.
“if the Cardinals did opt to punt on 2023”
At this point, a more apt metaphor would be – take a knee.
Thanks MO, it’s always best to have no solid direction.
FIring Marmol is certainly justified, but they’ll need to bring in an EXPERIENCED coaching staff that can stress fundamentals and get this team back to playing up to its talent level.
Then again, unless they solve the 2024 starting pitching dilemma, they’re going nowhere. That’s going to require money and accurate player assessment as they go on the open market to fill at least two spots, if not three.
Accurate player assessment? This front office??
I’ve been saying it since spring training…Gorman to the Tigers! Throw in Burleson or O’Neill and build a package around Tigers pitching, starting with Casey Mize. The Tigers have other young bullpen and SP who might be of interest to round out a package. Mize and Gorman as the base of a package makes sense. St Louis needs pitching and the Tigers need offense.
Gorman is going to be a stud. Mize is hurt. No way I would do that deal.
Perhaps both Mize and Skubal would make sense but I don’t see Gorman as the guy being dealt. Donovan is solid he doesn’t have star potential but he will take good at bats. That’s who the Cardinals will trade not Gorman.
The Cardinals have depth which most teams do not. What they need is upside which I do like from Mize and Skubal.
I wouldn’t trade Skubal for both of your Nolan’s He’s going to be a stud for years to come. Mize I’d ship out. I think the Cards would be nuts to trade Gorman. Wishful thinking on my part. I do like Yepez and Burleson though, and O’Neill too as a change of scenery candidate.
ONeill Yepez and Burleson could all he had. I could do those three and a little more for Mize.
Gorman and Baez for Bieber. Win/Win
Edman for Bieber. Not getting Gorman for a year and a half of Bieber. Plus Indians need a shortstop more than whatever Gorman is.
Not getting Bieber then. You can’t just give up useless pieces and parts for TOR starter.
I think there is a decent chance Edman is better than Bieber right now. Edman has an extra year of team control too and makes a lot less money because Bieber has a better track record.
Truly I would pass on Edman for Bieber at this point. Bieber looks like he might be toast.
and again. people need to look at Biebers numbers. ALL of them are trending in the wrong direction. I’m not giving you Donovan alone for Bieber. you can keep him
Beiber? Forget that noise as he’s not a long term answer (dwindling results), but a Bibee or Allen, yes. What we’d need to give up for one of those is another question.
Cleveland has plenty of shortstop options. I expect top 100 prospect Bryan Rocchio to be their shortstop next season. They don’t need Edman.
So STL implies they’re probably just making minor tweaks and all of the comments suggest them trading non-rentals. I doubt they trade anyone but the rentals, personally.
You’re probably right but I don’t think that strategy moves the needle.
Mo can not step down until off season. Hopefully no major changes occur with him at the helm
LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL
Complete disaster of a franchise
LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL
LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL LOLLOLLOL
Hardly. Once they off Marmol,the Cards will be fine.
Ruling out a rebuild (altho everyone thinks a rebuild has to be the Athletics/Blackhawks version, which is not true) and admitting the team will never be ‘a player’ in big FA market only leaves draft & development aka KC Royals territory… Firing Schidt and/or letting Schumacher go are looming as large errors, the mistake of signing Contreras & fooling themselves that they had a good rotation should cost the GM his job IMO. They have to be sellers (missed the chance on getting anything for O’Neill) and get rid of whoever suggested they trade Arozarena and Garcia…
Stating the obvious here that the Cards have been a huge disappointment. I had them winning the NL Central by 7 games over the 2nd place Brewers. But, I’ll say that this team can just go nuts. By nuts I mean winning 10 in row and going on a streak where they win 18 out of 21 games or something like that. There have been a couple of teams that have had really good streaks so far like the Giants and Reds. Anything can happen. As baseball fans know the NL Central is weak.
The problem is the Pirates streaked at the beginning of the season and now the Cubs and Reds are hot. The Cards are being left behind.
the cardinals have to much talent and they never are going to a full rebuild. they need a new manager and need to trade from their position depth for pitching. may really need to trade Goldy at this point.
This all starts at the top. Mo has got to GO. The issues with the pitching staff have been building for the past three years. Now it is in total disarray. Mo has done nothing to get a real ace.. Both the starting rotation and the bull pen are a mess. They are just liming along. Every Cardinal fan as well as foe could see where this was headed. Why Mo couldn’t is beyond me. He is the number one reason the Cards are doing so poorly this year. No GM in his right mind would have resigned Waino after last season.
#2 Marmol has to go too. He is nothing but lost out there on the field. He is worse than MM.
$3 I love Wanio he has been a great pitcher but this is beyond embarrassing. Why he insists on going out there to make a fool of himself and the organization is so sad. Wanio just hang it up enjoy the success and great moments that you have had and just get on with your life, it’s embarrasing.
Waino is limping to that 200 career win mark. I’m sure Contreras can coax him there.
“Worse than MM”. Ouch!
I would not trade Jordan Walker, but anyone else
1st move, fire yourself Mo.
I actually read all of the above comments. Good discussion Whether the division is horrible, which it is, has no effect on the two changes that need to be made BOTTOM LINE. You need to improve the pitching for now and next season. Second, time for your manager to go. He has lost the clubhouse and mismanages a good lineup. He has alienated the veterans. Tell him to not get hit by the door on the way out. A little advice from your old brewer friend.
No, that’s not correct. The veterans have publicly expressed their support for Oli Marmol.
Thanks, Mo. We get it. We may not like Marmol’s characterization of our performance as “sub-optimal,” but we realize firing another manager is not a good look for any of us and isn’t going to solve our long list of problems.
Fire Mo and Marmol
Re-hire Shildt
Trade either Goldy or Arenado w/ Contreras for negligible return just to rid yourself of that awful deal. Play Walker at first if it was Goldy or Gorman/Walker at 3rd if it was Arenado
Trade Flaherty/Montgomery for whatever prospects you can get.
Start over fresh in 2024
Agree, Mo has got to Go. This undoing is on him. Then Marmol next.
We need an ace, its too bad you traded what would now be two of them to rent Ozuna. Whose fault was that? Marmol, Schilt, Maddox? If it is time to trade I don’t have confidence in Mo to not make it worse.
I could really see the Cards making a run for Giolito and, less likely, for Cease. I doubt the Sox would move Cease but they should still attempt to make that happen. Pitching is the main crux of this team. It should have been upgraded last offseason.
Clown franchise and fans getting what they deserve. Trash farm system will not help them much either. Studs at the top 4-5 and then trash after that. Goldy and Arenado are washed up. Pitching is garbage. They are in their rightful place at the bottom of the NL. Hope to see them stay there for a long time and as mismanaged as they are it should be a long stay
All that after predicting them to win their division 10 weeks ago? Don’t overreact. 2 losing seasons in 24 is a dream for most franchises
What a laugher. Cardinals want controllable starting pitching. It won’t give up anything remotely helpful to another team to get starters. Blaming Contreras is not the answer to yet another down year for the cards. The cards will be back, it’s just not their year. Even a 15-1 run end of season run won’t guarantee a ws win or make up for a lost season.
The Cardinals right now are in a world of hurt. Mo and DeWitt want to treat this year like the past years – where they make one or two small moves that energize the team enough to win the division. That’s not going to happen this year. And it’s not because of the offense. It’s the pitching, which was something every Cardinal fan knew was trouble dating back 2 years ago but Mo and DeWitt did nothing about it.
I think after today’s drumming by the Cubs in England, we can take a piss on 2023 and focus on 2024. I’m OK with that. However, based on Mo’s words, it sounds like he’s once again looking at a “soft” reboot that has been done time and time again in the past. While such reboots may get the Cardinals into the playoffs atop a weak Central division (except for this year, of course), they are taken apart by better playoff teams like a child with an insect in his hands (i.e. – the Phillies last year).
To me, a “soft” reboot that Mo is squawking about simply won’t move the needle much. O’Neill is hurt, and needs to show something in the majors before he can be traded for even a reasonable return. Flaherty should have been traded last year – his 5.00-plus ERA probably won’t bring back much at all in a trade. Jordan Montgomery might prove better trade bait, but isn’t he the type of player that the Cards are looking for in the rotation? So we trade Montgomery for what… another Jordan Montgomery? Jordan Hicks and veteran Chris Stratton could bring some talent back to the Cardinals, but it won’t be nearly enough. Pending free agents like Paul DeJong and Drew VerHagen won’t interest any team.
No, for the Cardinals to bring in some long-term young pitching talent, they will need to trade some of their offensive players. And that’s OK, since the Cards have, by my count, 13 potential starters scattered across 9 positions. Some players HAVE to go.
To bring back some decent pitching talent, players like Tommy Edman, Brendan Donovan, and Nolan Gorman need to be traded. That makes more sense than either Nolan Arenado or Paul Goldschmidt, who would both have to waive their no-trade clause. I don’t see many teams trading for Willson Contreras unless the Cards ate a majority of that contract, so he won’t be going anywhere. Based on that, a young players like Ivan Herrera and Juan Yepez — stuck behind starters with no place to play — could also be offered up in trades.
Honestly, I would love for this team to trade in the upcoming trade deadline AND offseason the following players: Goldschmidt, Arenado, Montgomery, Flaherty, Hicks, Stratton, Cabrera and either Burleson or Yepez for young pitching – preferably starting pitching. Even if you get 2 GOOD starters from that bunch, the Cardinals are in good shape.
With these moves, it would open up a young core offense that could make some noise for years to come:
Willson Contreras (C)
Jordan Walker (1B)
Brendan Donovan (2B)
Masyn Winn (SS)
Nolan Gorman (3B)
Lars Nootbaar (LF)
Tommy Edman (CF)
Dylan Carlson (RF)
Alec Burleson (DH)
With this offense in place, along with 2 new trade starters, Mikolas, and a combination of Matthew Liberatore, Zack Thompson and Gordon Gaceffo (and soon, Tink Hence), we at least have a solid, young, talented core to lean on for the next 5 years.
@meangreen Very well said sir. Very clear exposition on precisely what needs to occur…you may have a baseball journalist side-gig for yourself if you’re so inclined. I would read your blog.
This is all looks reasonable but before you try to implement any changes or improvements the real fix has to start at the top with new thinking and a different approach, Mo has to Go.. Then Marmol next. Otherwise it is pointless.
as a cardinal fan, I have said that for 3 years, a rebuild is needed. we have 3 players making $20+mil a year. those are the ones to trade and have a foot up on the rebuild.
then trade others that aren’t controllable for less than 3 yrs. Fire Marmol and next season bring an outside guy to be the skipper.
Well thought out, but pointless because management doesn’t have the stones to do it.
It appears to me the Cardinals are disfunctional. They have traded away players thad were better than believed. Kept players that are not as good and have players that duplicate what they bring to the table. You can’t throw a different lineup out there everyday and expect consistency. Their pitching is In shambles. Non of their starters are average. When you have 5 below average starters you can’t compete. Trade some of the duplicates on offense and rebuild the pitching staff. Someone mentioned a trade with Seattle for Kirby. Are above average pitchers as easy to come by than a MI? Pitchers on the trade market are going to be very expensive. Think back to what the Reds for for Castillo last year.
Goldy, Jack, TON or Burls, DEJong, hicks
For
Painter and Schwarbs.
Any takers?
Not even a drunk Dombrowski.
A drunk Dombrewski might be convinced to take an MVP GG for two postseason runs for an unproven pitching prospect, no matter how high his ceiling. Dom does not build for the future, he builds for the now. And he would get a dominant BP arm and a #3 or #4 starter to compliment Wheels, Nola, and Walker. Add in a very good defensive SS with power, Burls with years of control, or TON with two years (can you imagine him in Philly) and you give him the opportunity to improve defensively at first, second, and outfield. Plus he gets to spend even more money on FA with Schwarbs contract gone. There’s some logic to not dismiss a drunk impulsive owner’s thought process.
You must be talking about Lance Painter. The other Painter is not leaving Philly to St Louis for less than Walker AND guyS like Gorman, Graceffo, Winn, and Hence.
While I can see the Phillies wanting Goldy, why would they want Flaherty, O’Neill, Burleson, DeJong and Hicks? No team is going to give up their No. 1 prospect for Goldy and a bunch of pending free agents.
I could see Goldy and, say, Jack Flaherty, going to the Phillies for Mick Abel or Griff McGarry. and a mid-tier prospect.
I think you are forgetting what we have given up in years past for less than 2 years of an MVP GG, and his pals that I’m offering. And we were never considered a move away from WS contention. The Phillies are, and were just there last year. Two added pitchers, and a GG MVP, and two more strong bats, could very well put them over the top. For a ring, yes, I think Dom would consider moving an unproven pitching prospect and a contract that’s giving him zero defense and a BA of under .180.
You guys talking about hypothetical trades and I’m over here hoping each update on this site would be about Marmol being fired.
Whitey Herzog lives in the Saint Louis area. I wonder if Mozeliak ever has meals with Whitey or gets together with him to drink beers? And if so, does Mo ask Whitey for advice?
Whitey would never waste his time on a whole meal with someone who doesn’t know baseball. Unless that person was paying. And we know Mo isn’t doing that.
underrated comment
These comments insane. The blind faithful Cardinal fans have finally opened up their eyes to see the team has been trending in this direction for a decade, but are still convinced the roster is great. So many comments calling for a trade then followed up by listing the players to build around. But the player list is the entire current roster. Do you want to trade the lowest of the low hanging fruit that can’t even play as it is. It doesn’t work like that. This season was always glowing to be a disaster. From Mo telling us he has too many pitchers for only 5 rotation spot, to the plan to throw 9 interchangeable league average players out there for three outfield positions and a DH spot. The team has no direction or plan. Except for to field a roster and sit back because every game will sell out regardless.
The next big mistake will be not taking the opportunity to punt the rest of the seasn and draft in the top 5 next year for the first time in a long time and get a chance a true elite prospect. Instead they will hold on to everything on the roster, make a couple irrelevant moves, go on a small streak and end up drafting closer to the 15th spot. Just like the rams did for years, always winning the last irrelevant game to move them from the 3rd pick to the 9th.
Everyone in the organization should be available, starting with Goldschmidt and Arenado. The problem is their return value is actually pretty limited. Plus, remember we didn’t give up anything for them either, that would be the expectation for trading them now as well. Goldschmidt will be 36 next year, plays 1B and is still owed $33m now they 2024. With Judge out for the year, ending the Yankees hopes, maybe it opens the door for Toronto to make a move and they’d be interested ins Goldschmidt for Nate Pearson deal. That makes the most sense to me and about the level of return to expect if you don’t want a couple of a ball lottery tickets. Arenado would be much harder to deal, his contract isn’t attractive, he’s showing signs of decline and he’s showing when he’s not happy it’s very noticeable like he did in Colorado. But both need to go so they can not only get prospects but to also get the money off the books so the payroll has options to get other players.
Cut Waino and Matz and trading Montgomery and Flaherty are all obvious but if anyone had interest in Mikolis or any other starter or reliever you listen and make the deal.
with the other position players. DFA DeJong, we are stuck with Contreras. then The team is full of so many redundant, league average, replaceable playersz they are a dime a dozen as the organization has shown and can be found anywhere. But if any other team inquiries, ship them out. It’s aniut getting as much quantity back as possbible and hoping to get lucky on one or two and most importantly, not screwing up the draft positions of 2024 and 2025.
As far as the minors go, they are in shambles. That’s why trading for quantity is imparative. Deal Hence as soon as possible, he’s only 6’1”, which is super short for a TOR pitcher, but right now he gets hype, so deal him now.
I would try to keep Wynn, Walker and Gorman. But they will also probably fetch the best quality returns so they shouldn’t be untouchable either.
Fill the newly opened MLB spots with the best prospects in MiLB and let them get experience at the top level and see how they do. MKB is a youth game now, so it should be time for them anyway.
The weak division arguement is over. As seen by the Reds and Pirates this year the division power is flipping and the Cardinals and Brewers are headed to the bottom. The other two are stocked with talents and should continue to emerge over the remainder of this year and beyond. We should be looking at 2026 to contend again, but the currently house needs to be burnt down or we’ll get stuck perpetual bottom middle.
Love the passion of the Cardinals fans writing their five paragraph essays! Really enjoying the fan analysis, great viewpoints that outsiders such as myself don’t necessarily glean.
Let me give you the cliff notes. Fire everyone. The farm is non egxistant Everyone is open for trade, but don’t expect huge returns so go for quantity and hope to get lucky. Focus on getting draft picks in the top 5 spots the next 2 years. The focus should be on 2026 and that’s ok, but own it.
Has no one caught onto the fact that the Angels lost their left side infielders due to injuries and the Cards didn’t call them about DeJong? Does no one get upset that the Mets jumped in and traded their 3rd baseman for two Angels’ pitching prospects, while Mo vacays in London and lets yet another trade opportunity slip by? The Angels situation seemed perfect to get a return on DeJong. Maybe I’m crazy.
Update: Now the Rockies have traded Moustakas to the Angels while Moe strums his violin and the Cardinals burn to the ground.
Nice image BB! Did you know Nero unfairly persecuted the wrong people for the arson?
Biggest difference, I imagine, is that Nero made sure his favorite gladiators won a title before it all burned down.
haha, Mutt, I do know this about Nero as I have some degrees in the history of ideas and world religions. I think Moe looks just like Nero, in fact.
Definitely think one of the first changes should be the firing of Marmol. I know some think Mo should be the first to go, but honestly, it should be Marmol by a long shot.
He doesn’t seem to have the support of his players. He doesn’t seem to have their back, so why should they have his.
He was given a competitive enough team to be in the race for the NL Central and yet, here they are trying to catch all the teams.
Last year, they won the division. But just as much part of them winning it, was the fact the Brewers truly just lost it. In August and September the brewers just had no spark. As much of a deficit as the Cards came back from, it was also just that the brewers blew it.
Like the arrivals says, this is only the cards second losing season in 24 years. And the roster construction was plenty good enough for the division.
When you have the consistency of roster construction that they have, failing like they are comes down to the fact they just don’t have a good manager.
I believe you’re right. That’s a well thought out comment and really symbolic of what I think the issue is. Sure, everyone wants Mo to spend more, we know they should have gone for starting pitching, there should have been a stronger sense of urgency for our rotation but there wasn’t. Still, the team should at least be performing around 500.
The warning signs were there. Maddox and Holiday knew something was wrong and it wasn’t organizational philosophy, as they already knew what that was about.
Another embarrassing beat down last night (6/29), this time at home by Wanio. Why is he being so bullheaded about this? Oh yeah, the money. He should have walked away two/three years ago when he could leave with head held high. This is on Mo for resigning him. Mo has got to Go. This was all preceded by the previous night’s ‘do the same thing over and over again but expect different results’ move by the clueless manager Marmol by bringing in Giovanny Gallegos. Five runs in 2/3 of an inning. Why do we keep marching this guy to the mound?