The Orioles will at least temporarily be moving Jack Flaherty from the rotation to the bullpen, manager Brandon Hyde told MASNsports.com’s Roch Kubatko and other reporters. “It’s a move for today right now,” Hyde stressed, but the skipper is “really interested” in seeing how Flaherty operates as a reliever, “whether it could be a length guy, maybe it could be a right-on-right guy. We’re looking for that. We’re looking for right-on-right guys. I think it’s worth a shot to take a look.”
Baltimore been operating with a six-man rotation since John Means returned from the injured list last week, both as a way to ease Means back into action after his lengthy absence due to Tommy John surgery, and to give all of their starters some extra rest down the stretch. The O’s are in a stretch of 17 games in 17 days without an offday until September 25, so the addition of Means gave everyone some respite during this busy portion of the schedule. Of course, with the Orioles now bound for the postseason, the club also wants as many fresh arms as possible for what it hopes will be a deep playoff run.
Aside from just rotation usage, Flaherty’s role change is inevitably down to performance. The right-hander has a 7.11 ERA over seven starts and 31 2/3 innings since he was acquired from the Cardinals at the trade deadline, falling well short of expectations after a solid performance over the first four months of the season. On the plus side, Flaherty hasn’t been much of a detriment to a rotation that seems to be getting better as the year as progressed — even without much help from Flaherty or the struggling Kyle Gibson, Baltimore starters have combined for a 4.00 ERA since August 1, the ninth-best mark in baseball in that span.
Heading into October, Kyle Bradish, Grayson Rodriguez, and Dean Kremer look like clear favorites to start postseason games. Means is still a wild card due to his lack of innings, but the former All-Star has looked pretty sharp in his two starts to date. With all this in mind, Flaherty might have been ticketed for a bullpen role in the playoff anyway, so this new move gives him some chance to adjust to the new role.
In the bigger picture, Flaherty’s upcoming free agent case hasn’t been helped by his struggles with the O’s, and his market might take a further hit with a lack of starts altogether for the rest of the season. However, Hyde said that Flaherty is open to working as a reliever, since “he’s a total team guy. [I’m] really, really impressed with his professionalism. Truly, he really just wants to help this team win somehow, and if he can do it in that way, we’ll see.”
Kyle Gibson always seems to falter near the end of the season.
The Os rotation is looking like a strength just at the right time.
I’m excited to see what these young kids do in October
They’re going to regret not doing more for their rotation at the deadline, their team is incredible and they deserved a bigger commitment from the front office.
Absolutely false. We have five perfectly good starters in GRod, Bradish, Kremer, Gibson, and now Means, and plus Irvin & Wells have carried us this far. Bradish is one of the best in baseball, Wells was one of the best AL SPs of the 1st half, Kremer is a gamer and G-Rod is looking now like the ace of the future. We regret doing the Flaherty trade, so realistically, we should have done LESS at the deadline. The pen is the weakness, so apparently you don’t know the O’s.
Exactly. Plus Baltimore’s window of contention is not really just this year. With their pipeline of young, high end minor league talent, their window could be the next 5-7 years, Ala Astros & Dodgers. That will give them plenty of time to decide whether they need to add outside pitching.
Good not good enough when you need to be great.
Funny, only two games behind Atlanta for best record in ALL of MLB, sounds great to me. G-Rod twirling 8 shutout against Tampa Bay sounds great to me. Kremer & Bradish dominating Houston every time sounds great to me.
Great, not good.
Outside of GRod and Bradish, I can’t see the rest of their staff being able to shutdown the elite offenses in the postseason. A one game sample size in the regular season does not make a pitcher great.
Outside of losing Wells to arm fatigue/pitch count concerns, the Os SP has been remarkably healthy plus Means looks in mid season form. Huge.
And just as important; it’s an extremely confident bunch. As a group, they’ve bought in to the FO’s SP philosophy.
Good typically doesn’t win you a 3 game series. You need better than good. You need to be able to, with confidence, toss out 3 guys and say you are going to keep us in the game as a pitcher. People seem to forget playoffs aren’t 162 games. It’s 3 5 7 whatever. 162 games your pitcher has a bad outing not all that concerned. 3 5 7 games its concerning.
Can the O’s with confidence toss out Rodriguez who’s given up 15 runs last 8 starts? Or Kremer who’s given up 14 runs his last 8 starts? Kyle Gibson has given up 30+ runs his last 8 starts. Or wells who gave up 21 runs his last 8 starts as game 2 and 3 starters? Well they have to.
Irvin is now a pen arm cause he gets hammered as a starter.
Nothing against the Orioles but let’s wait and see how they do in the playoffs before fans go WE DONT NEED NO STINKING PITCHING!
I hope they win it all honestly. Dark horse out of nowhere is usually a fun team to watch during the season and in playoffs.
Burn that money baby!
Well, looks like the O’s will skip that 3 game series you mention. They’ll get into action on the second round which is a 5 game series.
I also mentioned 5 and 7 game series.
I also mentioned who are your game 2 and 3 starters cause lose those you’re down 2-1 or 3-0.
In 5 games you’re either 1 loss away (down 2-1) or eliminated (3-0).
15 runs in last 8 starts? Lets stick with MLB.com’s splits – in his last seven games, G-Rod has given up 10 runs in 43.1 IP – that’s a 2.08 ERA.
I’ll take that.
Bradish, 43 IP and 12 runs. 2.51 ERA. He also just pitched six scoreless against Houston.
Kremer, 39 IP and 12 runs. 2.77 ERA. That’ll work too. O’s have won 12 of his last 13 starts.
Your argument is invalid. The stats prove it. The O’s starters are good – and Bradish, G-Rod, and Means are GREAT. Kremer has flashes too.
Oh, and further showing you have no clue what you’re talking about, Wells is in AAA as a reliever and hasn’t pitched for the O’s in two months. Prior to the ASB, you could absolutely trust him to give you 6 innings of two run ball every time out.
And Irvin isn’t in the pen, he’s in AAA too. But his rotation period wasn’t bad – he blanked the Mariners when he needed to, and kept the team in games. Then he was moved to the pen when Means was activated, pitched three innings in long relief to close out a game, and was optioned for a fresh arm because, oh, the O’s are playing seventeen straight games and those SPs you know nothing about keep chalking up wins for the birds.
Really frustrating to see the absolute lack of knowledge about the O’s, despite them being the best team in the AL. If you don’t even know who is in the starting rotation, why even bother offering a half-formed opinion…
It’s like you actually
8 starts…..im.gonna talk about 7 starts.
Lmao. Ok buddy. Move along. Don’t waste my time by changing criteria.
You conveniently leave out them being sporadic over last 8 starts
Rodriguez either pitches great gives up runs
Toronto 5.2 and 3 earned
Toronto 6 and 3 earned
Boston 4.1.and 2 earned
Kremer last 8 4 he was sporadic
4.0 amd 3 NYy
5.1 and 2 nym
6 and 3 sdp
4.1 and 5 stl
Gibson
7 and 3 earned nym
5.1 and 9 sea
5 and 4 Oakland
8 and 3 tor
4.1 and 7 chw
6 and 3 LAA
6.2 and 1 stl
4.2 and 3 Hou
Wells
5 and 2 tbs
6 and 2 can
6 and 2 nyy
6 and 2 min
2 and 5 lad
4.1 and 3 tbr
2.2 and 3 nyy
Irvin
5 and 0 sea
5 and 1 oak
6 and 4 col
5.2 and 4 are
1 and 0 laa
2.2 and 3 bos
2 and stl
Move along man. Just because you don’t like the truth is no reason to be snotty.
You’ve proved nothing other than you’re a Homer and can’t look at things objectively. You actually had to ignore and change things i said. Which is really pathetic. Totally fine. But gonna hurt real bad when reality sets in. You do you though. Best wishes.
Remember. Playoffs aren’t 162 games. Sporadic and volatile starters are risky in short series playoff games. More you know.
The truth is that 7 games is the metric in the MLB app. You’re the guy that made up 8 games as a bizarrely cherry-picked metric.
O’s SPs are fine. Two of them are great. That you’re trying to crap on guys who pitch to 3 and lower ERAs is pathetic. Just shows you know nothing. Wells was demoted two months ago, his stats are irrelevant. Irvin moved to the pen a month ago. His stats are irrelevant. But that doesn’t fit your silly fake narrative, so pull numbers for guys not even on the active roster some more – maybe get Zimmermann & Voth while you’re at it. What a joke.
The only sporadic starter in the O’s rotation is Gibson.
But again, you wouldn’t know that, since you… know nothing. Just a wannabe pundit.
Bingo! There will be no 3 game series for Baltimore in the postseason. These birds are about to make some serious noise in October!
Let’s play this game for real. Since you’re such a cherry picker and used three starts for G-Rod… here’s another set (and not one that was in the pouring rain throughout and delayed twice, as was the case in Boston – but again, you wouldn’t know what you were talking about if it sat in your lap so…) that you totally skipped over in your malfeasance:
NYY 6.1 IP, 0 runs 2 runs
HOU 6 IP 3 runs
SDP 7 IP 4 runs
CWS – 6.0 IP, 0 runs, ONE HIT.
LAA – 6.0 IP, 2 runs.
All of those are between the first TOR start you listed and the Boston start you cited last, seems you ignored twelve innings of two run ball because… oh, no reason, just trying to prove a fake point.
Let’s even consider, recalled on 7/17, gave up 4 runs in 5.0 IP first game back, against LAD. He was recalled with a 7.35 ERA. Next start, 5.2 IP, 2 runs vs TB. Then the list of outings I provided, beginning with 6.1 shutout innings against NYY.
And of course, there’s his latest outing:
TB – 8.0 IP, 0 runs.
So, that’s 20 innings of two run baseball in his last three starts, seven quality starts of his last nine, and one of the two that wasn’t was in a downpour. Most runs he’s allowed in any outing since recall is four. And that was twice. That’s GREAT. For anyone, much less a 23 year old rookie.
Bradish, I see you ignored him entirely. Laughable. 3.01 ERA, has danced around Cole for ERA lead for over a month. But grab stats on Irvin & Wells, two guys not on the big league club. That’ll show me!
Regarding Gibson & Kremer, their win totals tell you they’ve kept the team in games. Kremer has pitched to a 3.80 over his last 15 games (again, using the logical MLB duration splits, not some arbitrary 8 game cherry pick). Perfectly good. Not going to bother diving on him. The reality is that G-Rod and Bradish are both great, Kremer and Gibson both keep the team in games (Kremer more so than Gibson), and Means is back and has looked decent in a very small sample size.
RISP numbers, on the offensive side, are third best in baseball.
The O’s have the pieces. The SPs are not the weakness. Anyone can see that. Bradish’s 6 scoreless against Houston today further highlights that. It’s the pen, not the rotation, that is the real weakness.
Class dismissed.
Literally listed their sporadic outings last 8 starts.
If they weren’t sporadic
Rodriguez Kremer would have eras under 4. Consistently effective pitchers don’t have eras 4 and over.
Inconsistent. Sporadic. Volatile. Whatever you want to use. Orioles rotation is a big concern going into the playoffs. Simply cause you don’t know what kind of outing you’ll get.
Now provide numbers for the entire season. Go.
Good thing the Orioles won’t be playing in a 3 game series. In fact, if you were paying attention, you’d know that they are skipping the WC round all together.
So you believe in Gibson, Kremer, and Means starting playoff games against the Astros rotation? Very bold.
Yes – Means held them to one run in five two days ago, and Kremer has two shutouts against Houston in the past two years.
He has no other choice but to believe in them. Theyve got no other choices. But if Houston wins the series 100% chance they’ll whine about Houston cheating or something instead of the sporadic starters being volatile.
That’s a lie, shame on you.
Just took the series from Houston, again, third year in a row.
Yeah dodgers looked good in regular season for many years now too. Even had a couple 100 win seasons. Meant nothing in the playoffs. But congrats on regular season accomplishments. Good luck in playoffs.
It would be Bradish, Greyson and Means starting – and yes, I’d be completely happy with that like the OP.
How we feeling now?
Most trade deadline starters haven’t amounted to anything special. Prospect cost was expensive. Who knows how expensive it would have been if they outbid the competition.
@ChangedName, weird, they just keep winning games while the keyboard GMs scream into the void that they’re not serious about winning
Hope all that playoff winning is going good!
As a Braves fan, I remember the vitriol AA got from the fanbase from 2018-20 for only doing one-year deals (Keuchel, Donaldson, Hamels, Ozuna) and not making any splashy trades or free agent signings.
The Orioles have a great thing going and a bright future. Proper management is going to determine how long this window can be open. I think restraint now bodes well for the future.
This happens with every team. Then you see those same people complaining 2 years later when those big contracts start to show why they were a bad idea. Absolutely agree with you that the moves you don’t make are just as important for a competitive window as the moves you do make.
Like who? Max Scherzer? No. Lucas Giolito? No. Chase Anderson? No. Tyler Anderson? No. Eduardo Rodriguez? Hell No. Patrick Corbin? Not worth it. Justin Verlander? Not worth it. Lance Lynn? Not worth it. That leaves Jordan Montgomery. Any others?
Local talk show talkers and beat writers were reporting that the Os were right there in the Verlander sweepstakes. Justin decided to go with familiarity .
Justin Verlander knows better than anyone o pitch out of Camden Yards.
Rays gave up less to get a better pitcher with team control in Civale.
Completely agree. Some of these people need to take off the orange colored sunglasses.
Bradish has been an above average starter all season. He has reached a career high in innings.
Grayson Rodriguez has been great since his late July callup. He has reached a career high in innings.
Kremer has trended better the last several starts but still will get blown up so he has trended toward average. He has reached a career high in innings.
I am hopeful on Means but you can’t expect the guy to go deep into games coming off surgery. Hoping he can get you 5-6 good innings as he has been.
Gibson is Gibson. He’s going to get you back of the rotation starts.
Flaherty has not been a viable starter. They didn’t give up much to get him but didn’t get anything from him. Rays gave up arguably less to give up a better pitcher in Civale who they have control of for 2 years. Irvin, who I was criticized for having concern over when they got him, has proven to not be good even to the most dense.
They needed more help at the deadline. They leaned heavily on their bullpen and will be doing even more so. This has been a very fun season but face it, this team should be about where the Blue Jays are. Like the 2012 team they have feasted on 1 (and 2) run games and that regresses over time. Its been fun to watch them overachieve by gigantic margins.
This team is somehow on pace to win 101 games. That’s what is amazing to me.
But if anyone thinks they are better than the 1983 team (98 wins), 1997 team (98 wins) or 1980 team (100 wins), none of which had this 1 run record, then you either haven’t watched much baseball or are under 25 years old.
I’ve watched plenty of baseball. The 1979 team wasn’t great but had excellent 5 man starting rotation and solid pen along with Eddie Murray, Ken Singleton and that great LF platoon of John Löwenstein-Gary Reonicke and Doug DeCinces was coming into his own. But, the league was weak especially after the Thurman Munson plane crash
I didn’t think the 1983 team was so great either. The rotation was similar to 79 with some differences. Cal Ripken was an offensive weapon instead of Singleton. Rick Dempsey put on a catching clinic of all time behind the plate.
This team has new, unheard of pitching and the offense plays similar to the 1970s As. I think they’re just as good as those teams listed above or possible better.
More like the 1966 O’s that came for nowhere by playing the ABCs
Garry-
A decent take. Let me dig deeper w/ this discussion.
The ’80 Orioles had Cy Young winner Steve Stone and McGregor who I would venture to say had a better season. 2 of the top 3 starters (Norris) in the league that year. Palmer/Flanagan/D Martinez came out to average for the rest of your starts. Certainly better rotation than 2023 which comes out near average (at best, and only lately) overall. The ’80 bullpen was very good but your 8-9 guys probably not quite as strong as 2023 but overall top to bottom 95% of the innings were handled by above average RP’s. Lineup: Murray and Singleton were studs, Bumbry excellent, Roenicke/Graham/Lowenstein/Ayala/Crowley (Weaver loved his platoons that year) came out to ~4 very good players. DeCinces, Dempsey decent. Overall lineup more above avg. than this league’s team is. AL East had a great Yankees team with 103 wins plus Brewers, Tigers, Sox > .500. Only the Indians were terrible. 13 games each against all. 12 ea against the West, the Royals were excellent, the A’s average, everyone else over there terrible) Other than the 1993 Giants, one might say the 1980 Orioles are arguably the best non-playoff team prior to the wild card era.
’83 O’s did have the Three Stooges in the lineup to the extent that teams pitched around the other 6. But that top 6 was very solid. Murray and Ripken were the two best players in the AL that year. Lowenstein/Roenicke/Dwyer combined into 2 more excellent lineup spots, Singleton still a very solid DH with a .393 OBP that year. Even with the Stooges, a 111 OPS+, this was an excellent lineup that led the AL in HR and OBP. You don’t see those #’s from the ’23 squad. The rotation had 4 good to very good starters, with the 5th cobbled together Palmer/Ramirez/D Martinez to approach average. The bullpen wasn’t as strong though the vast majority of the work was handled by T Martinez (excellent) and Stewart (solid). The staff overall was #2 in ERA with a 1.31 WHIP and 109 OPS+, all better than 2023. The AL East was very solid, with four teams tied for 1st one day in mid August…..Tigers (92 wins) Yanks (91), Brewers (89) even Jays (87), west had W Sox 99 wins and mediocrity.
Certainly the 2023 Rays are right there with the 1980 Yankees. The Jays, Rangers, and Mariners are good teams.
The 2023 bullpen is asked to do more than either 1980 or 1983 examples, by far. They are probably stronger even otherwise if the innings were equal, even if you just go by sheer # of guys who can do it. Especially versus the 1983 team.
The 2023 rotation can’t hold a candle to either. The top end of the 1980 rotation was better, the 1983 rotation was deeper. Bradish would have been at best a #3 on the ’80 squad., pushing S Davis for a #4 on the ’83 team.
(This, of course, overlooks the fact that players today are just in general better athletes than 40+ years ago)
You literally made the argument against your conclusion. Ironic.
Since his last major league start on 7/29, Tyler Wells has only pitched 14 innings in AA/AAA. Is it arm fatigue or more of a season long pitch count issue or a little of both? How much has he been throwing on the side/simulation games. Does he get a call up in either the Guardians or Sox series or both?
Doesn’t matter, goonbag will pull his stats to illustrate O’s rotation weaknesses anyways.
I think it’s arm fatigue. Wells pushes himself, I don’t think he accepts his own limitations.
Hey Omar….dingus…I agree with you in this case. Wells long ago surpassed a career high in innings. Certainly his arm is tired.
But I said much earlier this season that his peripherals did not support his record though you and some other “experts” disagreed. It seems Orioles brass whom many have so much faith in agreed with me and sent him down to the minors.
You also suffer from not looking at the results objectively. They win close games. Did it last year. Did it this year. They are absolutely better than ‘97. They aren’t “overachieving by gigantic margins.” That’s what idiots say. They’re just gritty and fearless, and hit in the clutch.
Omar all of the experts who know a lot more about baseball than me and DEFINITELY a lot more about baseball than you will tell you that out of the ordinary 1 run records like this year’s Orioles have or the 29-9 record the 2012 Orioles had are not sustainable over time. There are multiple articles about it. Google is your friend.
Besides incorrectly calling me an idiot and overlooking the facts (like below where I point out the 2022 Orioles went 23-24 in 1 run games so they did not do it last year) even the great Eddie Murray did not statistically maintain “clutch” for his career. I read the Bill James analysis and Murray does certainly have better stats in September/October when his team was in a race, and his stats were better in late innings and close game situations with men on base. But it wasn’t maintained through his career and not to what would be called a statistical exception. do some reading my friend.
A team of mere mortals like this years Orioles? I will put money that they will not maintain this otherwordly 1-run record in 2024 and there will be some very confused Omars who will wonder why they don’t win quite as many games.
Then I will call you an idiot for blabbering incessantly over the past two years that the Orioles are incapable of developing pitchers and supporting your baseless claim with what happened a decade ago under a different GM with an entirely different coaching staff. You remember these moronic, fact-free posts you made, surely..
Happy that Grod Almighty, Bradish, Means, Kremer, Wells and Felix Bautista – all developed under the current regime – have shut up those idiotic, false claims.
All in all it seems Jack’s plan so sit out for three years with “injuries” and then come back and set the league on fire right before free agency hasn’t exactly worked out.
Just pitched a pair of super meaningful scoreless innings to help a tired Baltimore bullpen. Great call!
This team sounds like the 2015 Texas Rangers. They way overperformed their run-baswd Pythagorean win-loss with an elite bullpen and a solid lineup with maybe a good starter or 2. I’d love to have a bullpen with someone other than Chapman and Stratton who can be trusted.
What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
+1 for the Billy Madison reference. He does have a point in the Pythagorean record…Its all in their 1 run game record (and 2 run game record). That does regress over time. See 2012 team versus 2013 team where the 2013 team didn’t do as well on the field but was probably a better team on paper.
Not really, since the O’s were great in tight games last year too, and have one of the best, if not the best, closers in baseball.
Omar do you enjoy being wrong? The 2022 Orioles were 23-24 in one run games.
I do remember 3 walk off wins in early July. That immediately followed 2 walk off losses.
They also went 15-18 in September/October when fighting for a playoff spot.
Pythag is junk science. Teams don’t play the same lineups every night and they use different starters every night. Sure, winning teams tend to outscore their opponents – that’s back-of-the-napkin math. But it is a weak correlation to win-loss success. The Padres say hello. Meanwhile, the Orioles are near the top of MLB in Runs Scored vs Runs Allowed. You simply can not predict the Orioles will inevitably fail based on Pythag. That, too, is idiotic.
He might not get Jack this offseason.
I trust Means. Big addition. Horse.
Just getting back on the groove for October.
>>”Baltimore been operating with a six-man rotation since John Means returned from the injured list last week…”
They’ve been rolling with a six man for way longer than that, since early August, but way to not notice.
I didn’t think it was possible for Flaherty to crater his free agent stock more than it already is but he’s done just that. Odds are pretty good he doesn’t make the Orioles post-season roster
There’s no reason for him to be on the post-season roster.
2 of the 3 guys from Harvard-Westlake School are now wash-outs. And their coach hasn’t exactly brought the White Sox pitching around.
They have too many other, more effective bullpen options to roster him for the postseason.
Notice to GMs (armchair or actual or anything in between):
Make sure you lowball trades for anything out of any Central Division. Civale is WORSE, Lynn is only better because he did okay against non-playoff teams, Flaherty got kicked out of the rotation, Giolito is WORSE, and anyone the Angels claimed on waivers was put back on waivers.
Anything in the Central wouldn’t make the playoffs in Japan. This is why Sonny Gray shouldn’t get serious Cy Young Award Consideration
This will afford him more time to work on woke manifestos and expouse his enlightened views on why this country is such an evil place.
People who grind this political axe are so pathetic
The 2006 cardinals won the world championship with the likes of Jeff Weaver Jeff Suppan and Jason Marquis and Anthony Reyes as their starters along with Chris Carpenter as the only sure bet !!!
The Orioles have more than enough to win it all. It takes one or two ace like pitchers (or at least guys who can pitch LIKE aces for a week or two) to make a nice playoff run. Carpenter was a stud, Suppan, Reyes and Weaver were far from it but pitched like aces for two weeks.
Jack is the most frustrating and disappointing pitcher I have ever seen in the past 20 years of watching baseball. Pray to God he does not come back to the Cardinals, even on a minor league deal. His only defense is that in his one great half season, so so long ago, he happened to pitch his ass off. The pressure to regain that form has just been more than he could handle for the past 4 years now. Trying to replicate something that was impossibly great often does not work out. Thanks for the memories of the one good year he gave us.
I’d take flaherty back to the cards on a minor league deal. He’s generally been good with them when he’s been healthy. He’s just sketch all around when it comes to injuries and honesty about them.
No because he then they would count on him again. He would then disappoint us again. He has talent. Just enough is enough.
The Cardinals were aided by their WS opponent, the Tigers, who were mismanaged by Jim Leyland. Jeremy Bonderman was hot while Lefty Nate Robertson was in a relative swoon.
Bonderman should’ve been game 1 starter and Robertson relegated to the pen. Leyland chose Robertson over Bonderman because he claimed that the Cardinals struggled against left handlers. I guess he was misinformed considering the Cardinals had ONE left handed bat in their lineup.