Before signing Willson Contreras last winter, the Cardinals were known to be considering catching options on the trade market, which included talks with the Blue Jays about their then-surplus of Gabriel Moreno (who was eventually dealt to the Diamondbacks, Alejandro Kirk, and Danny Jansen. Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch shed some light on those past talks between the Jays and Cards, writing that Toronto had interest in Lars Nootbaar and Brendan Donovan.
With Goold also reporting earlier this week that Dylan Carlson was on the Jays’ radar this winter, there’s plenty of reason to think that Toronto and St. Louis could line up on some sort of trade this winter. Nootbaar could slide perfectly into the Blue Jays’ left field vacancy, while Donovan’s ability to play almost any position would give Toronto lots of flexibility in figuring out how it wants to address its many needs around the diamond. Of course, several teams have also made calls about Nootbaar, Donovan, and Carlson, and it remains to be seen if the Jays could outbid the field, if the Jays have the available pitching that the Cardinals are badly seeking this offseason, or even if St. Louis dealt any of these particular players whatsoever.
More from around the AL East…
- The Rays hired Tony Watson for a job in their player development department, according to Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times. Watson will be working under director of pitching Winston Doom. A veteran of 11 big league seasons from 2011-21, Watson retired in 2022 due to shoulder problems, and the 38-year-old is now moving into a new stage of his baseball career. Known mostly for his seven seasons with the Pirates, Watson was a former All-Star reliever who posted a 2.90 ERA over 648 1/3 career innings, and is MLB’s all-time leader in holds (246) since the statistic started to be officially recorded by the league in 1999.
- It isn’t any surprise that Aaron Judge is a big voice within the Yankees organization, and The Athletic’s Chris Kirschner writes that Judge and owner Hal Steinbrenner “have already met this offseason on multiple occasions.” Examples of Judge’s influence might extend to the job security of manager Aaron Boone and director of player health and performance Eric Cressey, as Judge (and perhaps the Yankees clubhouse at large) likes both. Kirschner notes the interesting dynamic this creates, writing that “Judge is seemingly on the second level of the team’s organizational ladder alongside” GM Brian Cashman, though Cashman himself earlier this week said he didn’t have any issue with star players like Judge or Gerrit Cole giving their input.
- For more from the AL East, MLBTR’s Nick Deeds compiled another set of notes from around the division earlier today.
If Winston Doom isn’t a linebacker in life how does he end up in baseball?
Honestly, MLBTR should be posting 3-4 articles a year just reminding us that a guy with that name is in baseball.
No time for those articles when they have to write up obits for guys that had 300 at bats 65 years ago.
@roy some of us enjoy those articles.
Roy is an awful human being. Complaining about that? Get a life
Cause the Cardinals didn’t trade Nootbaar or Donovan for Monreno last year? Who are they gonna cough them up for this year? Dalton Varsho?
Laughable comment by the author…. Kirschner …..creates, seemingly on the second level of the team’s organizational ladder alongside” GM Brian Cashman, ” Note… Kirschner thinks Judge is on an equal level with the GM, Cashman, of the NYY. Sorry, Judge can talk, but that is about what it means… simply talk.
Judge has a lot more pull than you’re giving him credit for.
He does, but Steinbrenner is likely placating Judge to the point of listening to him, but not necessarily taking specific actions. Cashman would need to be in those meetings.
Hal is probably hiding under his desk so he doesn’t have to make any hard decisions.
They might as well make Judge the top executioner of the team.
No, wait… executive. Top executive.
Dude hit 62 home runs? Posts 10 war seasons? Looses the MVP to only Jose Altuves Buzzer? Seems pretty Influential?
No buzzer found.
But great point. Judge definitely has influence.
I doubt we trade Noot. Mo is pretty gun shy these days because of the criticism he gets from bad trades in the past. If he dealt a player as popular as Noot for a guy like Manoah and it didn’t work out, he’d never hear the end of it.
He’s going to play it real safe. That’s why Goldy and Arenado didn’t get moved at the deadline. He’s terrified of the backlash. Mo is a politician not a baseball exec.
I agree they most likely don’t trade Nootbaar. I would be ok with it if it made sense but who does Toronto have that is worth giving him up for?
Donovan is actually a really good fit for the Jays. They need help at 2b, 3b and left and Donovan can play all 3 of those positions. But again for what? I don’t think I would do Donovan for Manoah.
Carlson and Burleson for Manoah I like that. Perhaps add Hudson and Pearson to the deal. Maybe Manoah and a good reliever for Donovan but I don’t know about that. Nootbaar I just don’t see the fit for the Cardinals.
No chance the cards trade more than carlson for manoah, hes not just been bad hes been obstructive.
Prob wont happen unless the jays are desperate to get rid.
There is absolutely zero chance the Jays trade Manoah for just Carlson. Here in the real world young controllable wtarting pitching is still far more valuable than bats.
In case you missed, Carlson has been pretty bad as well the past 2 seasons.
Not when the relationship between that pitcher and the organization has soured. However, you might be right about Carlson, might need to throw in a Gomez or someone similar.
Works. Gomez completely expendable. However if I’m the Jays I ask for Yepez, who looked very good until being inexplicably bad in 2023
@Front regardless of the current relationship, Jays would be fielding offers from numerous teams. They are nor going to just give him away.
Neither should they.
And neither will the cards give away Carlson. He’s an MLB-level OF who plays solid CF in a incredibly thin market for position players. They will get something meaningful for him and Burleson, and Monoah is possible but appreciate he could be valued at anything nased on his amazingly volatile career to date (and less than helpful attitude).
Suspect the Jays will get rid of Manoah for the best they can get.
Obstructive?? He voiced displeasure when being sent down a 2nd time. Sorry that’s an absolute stretch. Now ideally you wouldn’t have to send players down, but that’s not reality. And teams should want players not happy about being sent down. That shows passionate that they care.
The ace of the staff Gausman likes the young man and has been mentoring him as he to was fast tracked to MLB. You can try and spin it any which way you want, it doesn’t change the value of young controllable starting pitching. Nor does it change the fact the Cards are gonna pay a hefty price if they want to aquire young controllable pitching that has had success at MLB level.
In Manoah’s defense, he shouldn’t have been brought back up in the first place. A by-product of the Blue Jays not addressing SP depth for years and being forced to recall Manoah when he wasn’t ready. He pitched “well” against your Tigers and people forgot he was facing the Tigers.
Jays mismanaged him. I can understand, to an extent, Manoah’s frustration (despite bringing it on himself).
OK, if you say so.
This is pure speculation from an east coast writer.
Goldy and Arenado didn’t get moved because it would have been dumb to move them.
All depends on who you get back. Nootbaar makes league minimum. Arenado and Goldschmidt will cost the Cardinals 56 million in 2024. There are scenarios where it could make sense to trade them.
Arenado is close to being washed up (not bad, but average at 3B is not worth $35 million a year) and Goldie will be a free agent in 2025
Arenado is better than average and we aren’t paying him 35 million a year.
Yea i dont this the my jays pry him away either. But i bet both team would like a do over on a catcher trade last winter. Cards add moreno and lose Contreras jays lose varsho add Nootbar
Contreras is a good player. And so is Nootbaar.
Contreras is a good hitter for a catcher, but not a very good defensive catcher.. OTOH, he doesn’t hit well enough to be the DH.
Ideally, we should have just started Herrera last year. But he seems to be in the Cardinals doghouse for some reason.
Herrera is not a good defensive catcher.
If they were willing to take Moreno for Nootbaar and the Jays waited it out and were backed into Varsho, I’d be pretty upset. The only way I want to hear negotiations going with the Cardinals is that they were not willing to move Nootbaar at all.
I don’t believe the Cardinals would have done that. They were very high on Nootbaar and for very good reason.
I can’t root any harder for a guy named Lars Nootbar.
Last year I was thinking we could trade Donovan for either Moreno or Kirk. That and trading for Murphy were discussed quite a bit. Obviously not getting Murphy seems dumb in hindsight but I like Contreras. He plays with heart and likes playing for St Louis. That makes me want to root for him.
The Cardinals are stuck with his contract, so you might as well like him.
I don’t think it’s a bad contract at all. I like the way he plays and he was one of the teams best hitters last year.
Front office/ownership will have buyer’s remorse for the remainder of that contract no matter what results Contreras produces. It has nothing to do with anything Contreras has done or not done, and everything to do with the FO believing he was going to magically transform into a completely different player in STL.
When did the front office say Contraras was going to be a completely different player?
Contreras is a good player. He was EXACTLY who we thought he would be.
The manager Marmol is a complete idiot who is in over his head. Mozeliak doesn’t want to admit it because he hired that yes man bum but that’s the truth. That’s the problem not Contreras.
Did you miss the first two months of the season when they constantly badmouthed him and demoted him to DH and potentially the outfield in favor of Knizner?
Or the Cardinals pitchers complaining about him to the press? Montgomery did that in NY
They expected another Yadi, good defense, good pitch calling, and Contreras isn’t that. He’s not bad, just not what they expected (though why they expected that is beyond me)
Stuck with his contract? Contreras was one of our best players. We are perfectly fine with his contract
“One of our best players” on a team that went 71-91 and finished last in a weak division is a dubious distinction.
They also could have finished last without him.
He wasn’t the reason the team played poorly.
Offensive numbers for the Cardinals were good, especially given that our pitching failed the offense so badly, the team is young, guys were playing out of position and the injury bug was a major issue.
Anyone who underestimates how good the Cardinal offense is/will be, isn’t paying attention.
Fix the pitching and this team is good to go.
Yes poor defense and poor pitching was the problem for sure.
Not a chance I would trade Donovan or Nootbaar to the Blue Jays (for what even?). We have a catcher so there’s no reason to go after them. What starters would be available that would be worth those two? National writers seem to focus on who a team wants from another team and just ignore whether the team would actually trade them or what the asking team has to offer that fits the trading team’s needs.
I agree for the most part. I think perhaps you could make a deal with Donovan. But Nootbaar I don’t see how.
Noot should be traded way before Donovan
Neither should be traded period. If Mo is crazy enough to trade one of them, and I hope he’s not, then it should be Donovan. Edman and Carlson should be the guys we trade though. The reason I would prefer Donovan is because Edman is a super utility as well. Where as Nootbar is our secret weapon to have a chance to land Japanese players. Noot plays for Japan, is friends with a lot of players like Yamamoto, and has the same agent as Yamamoto. Maybe he chooses the media circus of the big apple in the end, but the cards should absolutely be all in trying to get him. Trading Noot would lower their chances significantly. Even if we don’t land him Noot can help get other guys in the future. Not to mention he was our best outfielder last season. Right now Noot, Walker and Gorman should be untouchable.
Nootbaar is their best player.
The highest trade value pitcher the Jays have is Tiedemann. But he’s more prospect than ‘24 option given he hasn’t pitched a big workload in pro ball yet. Outside of that, the Blue Jays don’t have high trade value pitching. They have three guys on 20m+ multi year contracts and one guy with one year left at $10m. Then they have Manoah whose circumstances are such a mystery that no team is really going to feel they have close to the same information the Jays have to confidently make a trade for him. Outside of that, you’re in the Sem Robberse tier that might be interesting but not worth the guys you mention.
As a Jays fan, I’d be totally fine with a Tiedemann/Nootbaar framework. But that’s probably the only trade I’d do and I don’t think that would be a wise trade for the Cards. Outside of Noot, if I’m willing to trade Tiedemann, I think I’m looking at the Reds as a partner instead.
MoTie is all in. Lars Nootbaar is untouchable.
All this story does is remind Jays fans about Gabriel Moreno. Hell I’m even accepting that Varsho was really good overall. Moreno just looks like he’s going to be that much better
Varsho is a good player. You still have Kirk and Jansen. Who cares about Moreno?
Kirk is not a long-term solution at C. Jansen is passable.
Jansen is a good defense catcher with power and a slightly above league average bat. That means Jano is a top tier catcher and the jays had the best offensive catcher performance out of the whole league
Jansen is only signed for one more season and Kirk put up a sub .700 OPS last season. Moreno’s overall ceiling is much higher than either of them, and he’s only 23. He had a significantly higher WAR than either of them last season.
I was not a fan of that trade for the Jays at the time and am still not. They should have traded one of the other two catchers in my opinion.
Varsho is considered good by a metric standard. In the real world he is not good and the Jays easily lost that trade. You deal Moreno for studs, not guys propped up by inauthentic analytics.
Defense matters champ
@Joel P
Yep. Pitching and defence wins championships. Just look at the Rangers
You’ve never watched him play defense ham ‘n egger.
I think a much better statement would be pitching and defense get you to the playoffs. Big hitters and 2 big pitchers win it.
What starter are the Jays giving up for either of those guys?
How about something crazy? The Jays trade Vlad to Cleveland for some combination of ML ready prospects that help fill out the infield and possibly add LH depth to the outfield. Obviously pitchers could also head to Toronto. But it seems to help balance both clubs. Someone more familiar with Cleveland’s young players could probably fill in the names that could make it work.
You’re right; That IS crazy.
Why Cleveland in particular? Even in arbitration, Vlad is kind of pricey.
Cleveland has ML ready prospect depth. They tend to be too left-handed vs. the Jays, who are too right-handed. Cleveland needs another power bat. Even at $20 million Vlad is affordable because it’s not a long-term commitment.
I wouldn’t say the Jays are too right handed anymore. They traded away two of their right handed bats last offseason and Chapman leaving this year is another. A few of their most likely prospects to play a role are left handed as well. There are some left handed bats in free agency that could fit too. The Blue Jays also need some power so trading Vlad would create even more of a power deficit and grow the off-season list of tasks to accomplish. Trading off the major league roster could make sense if you have internal replacements. I think they need to add too many position players to feel like they can subtract any.
Cleveland don’t know what to do with that depth. They also wouldn’t take on Vlad’s salary.
Cards have what the Jays need, Jays can’t part with what the Cards need thanks to a SP depth problem. A problem that has been constant the last few years. A more plausible scenario is they swap big contracts but I don’t see either team doing that either. Cards have a bunch of guys who can play third which is a big need for the Jays.
Jays are not going to trade Manoah. He had a melt down last year but the year before was 3rd in the Cy Young voting. If he gets his head and body right, we have a cheap controllable pitcher for 5 more years. That is worth more than any one of Nootbar, Donovan, etc. I would dangle Kikucci and Espinal and a mid-tier prospect for Nootbar, who is the only OF on the Cardinals that would be worth trading for. The rest are stagnating or regressing players. Honestly, if the Twins would be interested, I would trade Kikucci straight up for Kepler, who also has 1yr left on his contract and makes the same amount this coming year. The Jays can then reach into a deep starting pitching market and sign someone to fill in for Kikucci.
You’ll have to dangle those players for some other team then. Our outfield is already thin and it makes zero sense for us to trade our best outfielder last season for that return. Carlson, O’Neil and Burleson should be the only outfielders the cards think about trading, and only if they get a MLB starter that would help improve our rotation. It makes no sense to trade any outfielder for less than a MLB starter since that will mean we will have to find a decent outfielder on top of pitching. Besides we matchup better with the Mariners and I’d rather get Woo than what the Jays have to offer. Lastly, we are going to try for Yamamoto, might not get him but we will be in on him, and we have a sneaky chance because of Nootbar and to an extent Arenado since those two have the same agent as Yamamoto. Nootbar plays for Japan and is friends with him. That would be epically dumb to take whatever chance we might have of landing him just to trade Noot for guys that aren’t a sure bet to improve our rotation next year. We are a very patient fan base, but if Mo trades Noot it better be for a stud otherwise bow tie will get chased over the bridge into East St. Louis where he will probably never be seen or heard from again lol
Why would we (the Cardinals) trade arguably our two best players in Nootbaar and Donovan? Carlson they can have.
Well our best isn’t good enough when we lack starting pitching. I don’t want to see them traded either, but if we get good, controllable starting pitching then it’s probably worth it.
@JeremyR: I don’t know. Maybe because it’s a last-place team in need of a roster shakeup?
The Cardinals outfield is majorly lacking. They need a big RBI producer out there. Nootbaar looks a lot better in the OPS column than he does on the fields. He just an average to slightly above league average player. Not a lot of pop in his bat that he barely uses. When you normalize his numbers to total bases per plate appearance he is ranked around Kevin Keirmeir. If Nootbaar were to get traded, he’d be forgotten pretty quickly for the next over hyped cardinal favorite. Donovan at least has the passion and a willingness to swing the bat. But he too has limited pop. The Cardinals are in such bad shape, they should be looking to deal most of their roster of replacement level players and start building up the empty farm system. Goldschmidt’s contract is up after the season. Considering his age and second half of last season, not much should be expected from him. With as bad as the team is, Arenado will be disgruntled and want out just like he did in Colorado. Third basemen don’t age well either. His defense has already regressed.
Give the Jays Tyler O’Neill. After all he is Canadian.