On the heels of a 76-86 season and a fourth place finish in the NL Central, the Pirates are looking for upgrades in several areas. Starting pitching appears to be a focus for Pittsburgh this offseason, particularly on the heels of yesterday’s news that right-hander Johan Oviedo is set to undergo Tommy John surgery. Beyond their club’s need for multiple starting pitching additions, GM Ben Cherington has indicated that his front office hopes to make a veteran addition at first base this offseason, as the club did by inking Carlos Santana last offseason.
While Santana is a free agent again this offseason, FanSided’s Robert Murray suggests a pair of recently non-tendered sluggers who could be of interest to the Pirates this offseason: Rowdy Tellez and Dominic Smith. Tellez, 29 in March, is coming off an injury-plagued 2023 campaign where he managed just 351 plate appearances but was among Milwaukee’s best hitters in 2022 with a .219/.306/.461 slash line and 35 home runs in 599 trips to the plate. Smith, meanwhile, is a former first-round pick who saw significant success with the Mets in 2019-20, slashing .299/.366/.571 in 139 games across the two seasons. He’s struggled since then with a .243/.311/.355 slash line over the past three seasons, though he did bounce back somewhat with the Nationals in 2023 to post a roughly league average line of .254/.326/.366 in 153 games as the club’s regular first baseman.
More from around MLB’s Central divisions…
- As the Twins look to reduce payroll this offseason, La Velle E. Neal III of the Star Tribune relays that Minnesota’s efforts to cut costs have not been limited to the major league roster. The club’s scouting department has seen a number of departures thanks to both desire to trim payroll and “streamline” the club’s scouting apparatus with an emphasis on analytics. Among the scouts who have parted ways with the Twins this offseason, per Neal, are Bill Milos, Rafael Yanez, and Mike Larson, all of whom Neal indicates will be replaced internally. Neal adds that the club also parted ways with director of Latin American scouting Fred Guerrero, who has since joined the Royals, but Guerrero’s position will be filled by external hire Ramon Barinas going forward. In addition to these scouting changes, the Twins figure to consider a variety of avenues to trimming salary off the major league roster this offseason, perhaps including a trade of glove-first catcher Christian Vazquez.
- Cardinals right-hander Andre Pallante was among the club’s most valuable rookies in 2022, when he posted a 3.17 ERA and 3.98 FIP in 108 innings split between the rotation and bullpen. Though Pallante posted a below-average 16% strikeout rate that season, he made up for it with a fantastic 63.9% groundball rate. Things didn’t go so smoothly for Pallante in 2023, however, as the righty’s ERA soared to 4.76, 8% worse than league average by measure of ERA+ despite an even stronger 77.8% groundball rate in 68 innings of work as a full-time reliever. Daniel Guerrero of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch writes today that Pallante, 25, has already begun working on pitch shapes and mechanics this offseason after spending time at a sports performance facility in North Carolina. If the adjustments help Pallante recover his 2022 form, it would be an excellent turn of events for a St. Louis club hoping to turn things around after a 91-loss season and a last-place finish in the NL Central as the young righty looks to contribute to the club’s late-inning mix alongside Ryan Helsley, Giovanny Gallegos, and JoJo Romero.
Sign Santana again!
I agree a out signing Santana
Moving “glove first” Vazquez, who is owed $10MM a year the next two seasons, won’t be easy.
Pirates should sign Dom Smith. Inexpensive and a possible very good return.
Had a great shot last season.
Playing time.
Hitter friendly park.
Awful.
Dom Smith is probably my last resort option. He’s a decent fielder with about league average numbers vs RHP, so he could be hidden against lefties with Connor Joe. But if the Pirates decide to go down the platoon route, then just see what it would cost to sign Brandon Belt for one year.
Mike Ford is probably a better option than Dom Smith at this point. They’ll both go for about a million bucks. Well, DS probably won’t get a ML deal.
sign me up for Rowdy Tellez
Tellez, Yepez, several Rule 5 picks that all seem to have higher upside than Smith.
The Nationals rolled those dice last winter and while Smith wasn’t awful, he wasn’t good either
The Pirates SHOULD sign Hoskins. They won’t, but they should. Otherwise, give me either Santana or Smith, I’d avoid Perez.
time to get Rowdy
They should sign Rowdy if only so that he will not hit against them next year.
Joe would make a decent option against lefthanders.
Honestly Pirates should go get Keon Barnum off the dollar menu.
his numbers in the frontier league were incredible last year
Hoskins is a terrible first baseman and he will want $20 M.
I’d totally settle for Carlos Santana t first base again. Kinda hope they look into Justin Turner because he’d be another solid and inexpensive veteran. For starting pitching, we just need something. My top free agent options would be Miciael Wacha, Seth Lugo, Wade Miley, and Nick Martinez. I’d love for the Pirates to shoot higher and go after Eduardo Rodriguez or Shota Imanaga, especially if Imanaga signs for somthing like Senga or Kikuchi did coming out of Japan, which are the most relevant comparrisons ive seen the most often. But because its the Pirates, Im ovbisously not going to hold my breath, but i aqm going to stay optimistic. I feel they’ll most make additions via the trade market over free agency. They need durability and solid results. Maybe see if the Mariners would trade Marco Gonzales. He was one of like 10 pitchers to start 130+ games from 2018-2022 with an Era under 4.00. Plus see if the Ms would be willing to part with any of their young starting pitchers for a somewhat reasonable price (Woo, Hancock, Miller).
Turner and Belt yearly salary will likely start with a 1. Not inexpensive when you have 100m max to spend and need 3 starting pitchers.
Turner turned down a $13.4 million option and opting to accept a $6.7 million buyout. $8-$10 million is more than reasonable enough for Turner, given his buyout. Plus the Pirates spent more on Ji-Man Choi and Carlos Santana last off-season combined.
Choi and Santana are 2 players not 1. They didn’t need 3 starting pitchers last year. They didn’t lose their tv deal last year. I expect Turner to get well over 10m. Thinking 13 to 16. I could be wrong though. First time for everything. We will see. Would be really surprised if he got less than 10.
Turner signed for $8.3 million last season, and with the opt-out, he made $15 million. To match that, he would only have to sign for $8.3 million again this off-season. He may end up making $13-$16 million in 2024 with the buyout (which would mean his 2024 salary would be $6.3-$9.3 million before you add in he buyout), but he’s not going to sign for $13-$16 million flat ($19.7-$22.7 million factoring in the buyout).
He will get more than 10m and it doesn’t matter if he gets it as salary or opting out. Pirates have no need to worry about luxury tax numbers only total $. If he would opt in then yikes. That means you over paid for a guy who is finished. And whatever he signs for remember that the Pirates would have had to pay more. I won’t expect to be seeing him in Pittsburgh even if they would pay him his 10m plus. I would think some better contender will want him.
@MLB the buyout is now irrelevant to his next contract, the $ is already his. I ve gotta say YDGM is probably right here, he should make North of $10M this season.
He will either get 10 to 17 million 1 year deal. Or 6 to 10m this year with 7 to 12 next year with a 4 to 8m opt out. Either way he should get more than 10m total. If he would opt in for that 2nd year that means he was awful in 2024. That 6.7 is already his. He is looking for another 6.7 in addition to his 2024 base salary.
No offense but there is no record of either Nutting or Cherington saying that payroll would increase to $100 million
You’re just presuming they will and knowing how stingy the owner has been in the recent past, I wouldn’t bet on it happening in 2024
@TheMan 3 I never presumed they would spend 100m. Don’t expect them to. I wouldn’t even recommend it.
Nothing good could result from them saying they would spend 100m so no reason for them to do it even if they wanted too.
How do you know that they have $100 million maximum to spend?
You’re just presuming they do but there’s no evidence that they will spend that much for 2024
While none of us can open the Pirates’ books, we can do a little rough math with revenues and expenses (including payroll). MLB budgeting is a multi-year process, I suspect the Pirates go into any given year with two numbers: a basic target area and a “make your case to spend this much” budget.
I’ve done some pretty extensive research on the Pirates’ market and I can’t envision a scenario where the Pirates’ revenue exceeds $200 million by a wide margin. My best guess as to the second number is somewhere between $130-$150 million, the first budget number is probably based on more realistic estimates of revenue ($200+ million in revenue is probably best case), which probably is around $100 million.
The state of their TV contract muddies the waters a little for them in terms of what they can spend. What we do know is that the Pirates will not spend more than they project to make, or even put themselves in danger of doing that..
One would figure that Cherington would submit ranges to fill various holes in the roster, max arbitration numbers and team-controlled salaries as his wish list, with estimates of what it would take year-over-year to maintain the team without opening new holes, then that is negotiated with the whole ownership group, not just Bob Nutting.
according to Statista.com, the Pirates revenue for 2022 was $262 million
2023 hasn’t been released yet
I believe their payroll was roughly $70 million
Anyone who truly believes that they can’t afford to pay for better than cellar type players lives in fantasyland
I didn’t say they couldn’t afford to pay more for better than cellar types on a year-to-year basis. Unfortunately, you have to commit to players for several years to attract an upper-tier free agent. When you start projecting out a few years, the payroll balloons as good players become arbitration eligible.
All MLB teams have a LOT more overhead than people would think in terms of operations. Aside from player salaries across all levels, there are scouts that travel far and wide, debt service, the PNC park lease, employee salaries, promotions and merchandise manufacturing and a bunch of other things that have to be paid. While expenses will only ever increase, revenues can fluctuate pretty wildly from season to season.
Statista (a German data aggregator) has been known to wildly miss on some of its numbers – particularly on its crime data in the US – though I would say they’re probably not terribly far off. That being said, the Pittsburgh market is not a growing one. The Pirates’ revenue growth is not likely to greatly exceed its expenses (something that is not true in Tampa, for example) as the population around Pittsburgh continues to age while fewer and fewer kids are baseball fans.
The bottom line is that the Pirates are first and foremost a business – one that perhaps prioritizes profits higher than its competitors – but a business nonetheless, with an ownership group who expects year-t0-year returns on their investment.
I’m not saying that I completely agree with how the Pirates do business, only that I understand that they are a business, and as such they operate in such a way as to maximize profit for those who invested in them. They probably could spend a little more and make a little more back than they do, but they also know things I don’t and may be a little more risk-averse than I am with other people’s money.
What are their overall expenses?
If I knew that with certainty, I’d be an agent instead of a guy commenting on a website. The debt service on PNC Park is probably not a small number, nor is the operations’ expenses for staff – around 600 direct employees with salaries and benefits, many of whom would have to travel extensively.
They also owe benefit payments to the MLBPA for retired players. Beginning next year, that will amount to $2.5 million for the MLBPA alone, not counting what they contribute to the minor league pension and health care benefits.
The lease on PNC Park is not excessive, but the Pirates generally pay much of the upkeep on it as the primary tenant. You’ve got all sorts of different insurances the team pays premiums on outside of employee benefits (stuff like liability insurance for kids falling off the pirate ship thing on the Riverwalk) and insuring contracts.
That’s a long way of saying I have no idea, but it’s a lot of nickel and diming that could easily exceed $30-$40 million per year, on top of player salaries.
Paul- The Braves I believe have to publicly state their accounting statement which not only shows player salaries but overall expenses.
You may be surprised at how high they are..
You’re right, the Braves are required to release their financials. There’s a little apples to oranges with them, because they have debt service related to the Battery (which they own and operate). They bring in more money for their in-stadium and the surrounding areas than most teams. But in a general sense, it gives a window into operating expenses for a franchise, and they are not small.
I did a very rough “analysis” about a year ago and came up with $40-45M profit for the Pirates with a $60M payroll and an average annual increase in value of about the the same $40-45M per year.
The annual profit was only about 3% or so of the total value.
If this is any where near correct it means that this business is not returning the hoards of money that many people claim.
Make no mistake,Nutting is making money,and he is not owning it for the good of Pirate fans,but he is a stable investor and worlds better than the previous two owners.If either one was still there the Pirates May have been sold to someone who wants to move the team.
I do not denigrate him like many do because he does spend for existing players and he does spend when the Pirates have a good team.
The public opinion of Nutting is largely shaped by the media, in concert with the MLBPA. Both groups know that Bob Nutting cannot simply open his own wallet for payroll without consequences for the rest of the ownership group, so their characterization of him as a cheapskate is a blatant lie. It’s a bait-and-switch for the MLBPA, they cannot admit the truth about baseball’s economic system – that some teams cannot consistently compete over the long term against the large markets. And why would they? Large markets have more fans and more money; the Pirates and Cleveland (for example) establishing dynasties in the context of today’s baseball fandom, where no other team has a legitimate chance to beat them, would be a disaster for the sport.
The answer to all of that: blame it all on the awkward and not especially likable principle owner of the Pirates. The amount of that Kool-Aid that’s been drunk would fill an ocean by this point.
MLB- I like your top four free agent options.If they could get 3 of these guys on one year deals for a total of $35M they could compete next year.
Pick up a cheap left handed first baseman(not Santana) and hope that the young bull pen is good and call it a day.
Another pitcher off the free agent market, Sonny Gray expected to sign with the Cardinals
The pickens will be bottom tier by the time Ben gets around to signing one
80 some million for 3 years of Gray isn’t good value for small market team. For less $ they got Hayes Reynolds for more years. Rather extend someone else on the cheap vs outbidding the rest of the league.
I didn’t suggest that they sign Gray, merely saying that another top tier pitcher is gone from the list of available players
Cherington said he would be active in signing free agent pitchers or trading for one.
Thus far he’s only managed to sign an outfielder to a minor league contract
He will probably wait until the winter meeting and sign a has been or just a warm body to take the ball every 5 games
Only few teams have been active. Once pirates are out of the Ohtani sweepstakes they will be active.
Sonny got $25M a year for three years but I was looking at most $55M.
He may earn it his first year but go downhill afterwards..
As I have said there are too many teams that need pitching for the Pirates to compete unless they go out of their comfort zone which they have never done before.
Pirates don’t want the top tier guys. Let the other teams get theirs. Let them spend 10 to 15m on 4 5 starters. Then pirates can get whoever is left for under 10m. Make a trade if need be or if you can swindle someone.
They will need to overpay to get anyone decent because of the extreme demand.
It is not like the last three years.
If they do not get in quick you are talking $10M for mediocre #5 starters.
Wacha would be a good get but he will get $30m at least for three years.
Cherington may very well not be able to work his magic this year through no fault of his own.
There’s always someone left. Miley Lorenzen Clevinger Bauer Matz Gioleto Velasquez Hill. I dunno. I don’t pay attention until someone is signed or traded. Whoever is cheap and not in demand.
oh it’s very clear you don’t know… about anything.
The Pirates were out of the Ohtani sweepstakes since before he even filed for free agency
“ whoever is cheap”
Should be engraved on the Pirates insignia
Bauer is definitely one they should be pushing hard for and should do a multi-year deal. Drop in an opt out for any legal issues more than traffic tickets or something. but work it out so if that does happen then he doesn’t leave empty handed.
With his legal deals settled (i think all?) the only major PR issues would be from people who don’t know better and his attitude.
If they’re going to spend on a multi year deal, hes the player to do it on since you can probably get him at a lower cost than any other ace out there. Guy is probably worth 30-35m probably can be had at 20-25m AAV. getting him for 3-5 years would cover most of the pirates expected upcoming window. I would say he is a safe bet to give 5-10 more wins.
Picking up a ‘cheap’ inning eater vet like Hill is also a decent idea. provides cover if the prospects can’t cut it. Possible trade bait at the deadline.
considering that Keller didn’t accept a team friendly contract extension last year which would have covered 4 years, chances aren’t very favorable that they will sign any free agent pitcher to a multi year deal
They will settle for the leftovers from the list of pitchers no one else wanted and Cherington will consider that a triumph
Not sure about Keller anyway based on his second half.He is not a proven pitcher.
Arm injuries are so prevalent now that for small market teams signing a pitcher to four year contracts is a tenuous decision at best.
For every success story there is a mediocre one and two losing propositions.
Cherington will not consider it a triumph as those are the rules that he is working under.
I doubt that Nutting thinks that a season ten games under 500 is a reason to open the checkbook any more than last year.
Pirate fans are almost certainly in for another mediocre season which will last until the young pitchers who are two years away will take their place as bona fide big league pitchers.
Joe- Hill is done.He is not worth even looking at as there are other cheaper options who can just be a body and mid level guys who still could produce.
Bauer was a fine ML pitcher at some point but the Pirates will not pay that kind of money nor should they.
I could see something like $30M for two years but that is it.
At Medoza sorry i meant like as a comparison not as in him.
Sure they will active in getting scraps
Joe- No apology necessary as it could be taken either way.
And,yes,Cherington will have to work his magic at least twice again this year unless they sign someone like Wacha or Bauer.
I would be happy with Clevinger,Bauer,and Giolito.All 3 of these guys may get 2 or 3 year contracts for $13-15m per year though.
@ydgm the market is waiting on Shoei and Yomanto (whatever his name is spelt) to sign. Then more KBO, NPO, etc players will be posted adding more to the pitching market. This should give the Pirates a chance to sign 2 or 3 guys by February. I expect a trade as well. I think Priester or Williams maybe the starting point of the trade for SP or long term answer at 1B. There are a few teams who has a guy at AAA being held back because of a guy on the major league roster who can play 1B. It will take a genie to get 3 SP and a 1B this offseason, but stranger things have happened in baseball.
1981- Mozeliak did not wait.For all we know BC is not waiting either.There is nothing keeping him from making the first offer to someone and giving him a deadline for a decision.If they are decent offers.the player will have to consider it.There are so many teams that need starting pitching almost as much as the Pirates that they cannot wait to get decent ones like they have been fortunate to do in the past.
@ML215 but this SP market is the deepest we have ever seen in over a decade. There are half a dozen international pitchers waiting to be “posted” after Yamamoto signs. They have 45 days to sign with a MLB after being posted. Since Yamamoto is the hottest (outside of Ohtani) foreign pitcher and until he is off the board, many pitchers are waiting. Pirates still have time and the winter meetings are not here yet. That is when things really warm up. I expect the Pirates to have a few pitchers falling in their lap by the beginning of the new year. Additional pitching will be added by February that can be options if any or all of the internal options are injured or struggles. But anything near the new year, will be pitcher (s) that can make an immediate impact on this club. Maybe not top tier, but quality arms that should be upgrades over Rich Hill.
Williams won’t bring back much as a starting point. Priester won’t either but more than Williams. Yankees fans always offered Andujar Frazier for every trade. They got made fun of. Pirates fans will offer Gonzales Priester. Maybe not as much on here because I will make fun of them but everywhere else watch and see. No Contreras Ortiz either. Any in demand pitching will take TJ Jebb or one of the half dozen elite pitching prospects. No go for me. But I would trade a quantity of meh for a Bieber Glassnow. Though Glass at 25m isn’t Nuttings style. Manoah maybe. Whoever isn’t in demand and thinks they can out develop the Pirates failed prospects.
Pirates should be able to find 2 pitchers. 1 year under 10m. Maybe 2 years and 20m something or even 3 30. I will put my $ on the 1 year though. Maybe they make a trade. Have patience. The big dogs get to eat first then the Pirates will sneak in.
Yes,the Pirates will sneak in and get Michael Lorenzon and a couple of non tendered pitchers because not only the big dogs but the medium size digs will get fed with the good food first.
And the starting pitching demand is the most ever.
Those second tier quality arms will all be gone by your time frame.
Lorenzon Velasquez and Hill. Maybe they get lucky and no one is hot for Clevinger or Cards dump Matz. Gio Wacha Miley Wood are probably even too rich. Maybe Flahtery or Perez.
You indeed may be a seer Dream.That is the three that tells me that the Pirates are not serious about competing next year.Hill could not get you or I out at this point.Vince is not ready until July and how good could he be then?Lorenzon is actually a pretty good hitter but is a Bailey Falter type.The youngsters are not ready.If you see it correctly,the Pirates will be lucky to match last year’s win total and that could be quite embarrassing.
Wacha,Wood,and Clevinger would be good gets and you would pay a premium in this environment for them but it begs the question as to whether the Pirates actually want to compete next year.
I would rather have reasonably good pitchers signed sooner rather than later if the Pirates can do so.
I know that the Cardinals overpaid but unfortunately that is the situation this year.
I’m sticking with my prediction of Ryu
You may live up to your name on that one.
He may be a good one to sign and in their price range.
Mendoza, you make valid points about how the team will wait until the young pitchers mature before making decisions on winning, but on the other hand, players will be a year older, injuries will come, there’s no guarantee that players like Davis and Endy will become better hitters
The recurring theme with this organization is next year we’ll be competitive
Next year never happens
Correction
The big dogs get to eat first, the Bucs’ dogs will eat the scraps
and I’d be fine with that.
gotta focus on keeping the band together and keeping these guys through their primes
With Nick Martinez getting $26 million over 2 years from the Reds, it seems likely that the Bucs will most certainly sign bottom of the rung pitchers to minor league contracts and an invitation to spring training to try and make the major league roster
No way will they pay $13 million for a starter, let alone a reliever like Martinez is
Still think they’ll make one signing similar to what the Reds/Cards/Mets have paid for a veteran innings eater – plus a trade for a decent starter with control.
I know it’s not a popular opinion, but trading Bednar and not signing Cutch/Santana is very much on the cards for BC with SP being so expensive and the Bucs more desperate than 29 other teams.
Trading Bednar would be a disaster.He is the only superstar on the team.
He would have had one failed save attempt if he was not overworked when he lost two near the end of the season.
He is a local guy and it would be a PR disaster.
Nothing worse than leading in the Ninth inning and losing,even for a mediocre team.
Sign Tellez.Make sure that Cutch can still play in ST.
If they do not sign at least two decent starters it will not matter anyway.
Yeh, I know all about Bednar and Cutch’s PR value, but as you say yourself, without two or three decent SP’s the season is lost anyway. All I’m saying is given no choice, a desperate BC may have to make some difficult decisions or just punt until 2025.
I understand your viewpoint but how many prospects do they need?
They need to develop the ones that they have and fire anyone holding them back.
They would be admitting failure in trading Reynolds,Hayes,or Bednar.That would be awful for team morale and inhibit them from getting anyone but bottom of the barrel free agents.
Desperation is not a good way to react.
The next week will tell.
Methinks that you can kiss 2024 goodbye already as they are in a very tough situation especially with losing Oviedo.
I think that maybe 10-12 of their top prospects are now pitchers which is a good thing.Their bullpen has a chance to be close to outstanding if the young pitchers normally progress and stay injury free.
This will be the key as to whether the rebuild actually does finally end or not,but probably would not happen until 2026 anyway.
In that case I would not mortgage the future now.
Hayes and Reynolds are locked up for years to come but Bednar is about to become expensive at a position small market teams can’t afford to pay big bucks for. His current trade value very likely exceeds his actual worth to the Bucs moving forward.
I’m not saying BC should trade for more prospects – quite the opposite. He should use some of the minor league collateral to get the veteran pitching so badly needed while being as frugal as possible with 1B/DH pickups.
BC has recently stated that bringing Cutch back if he’s healthy is a priority
Both he and Bednar contribute in putting fans in the stands and a team that has struggled to attract fans, it’s unlikely Bednar will get traded
Bednar’s projected arbitration is $2.6 million, hardly what is considered expensive, even for a small market team
I just researched their team revenue for 2023, and that isn’t available yet but for 2022, their revenue was $262 million
Even with a potential payroll of $90 million, Nutting is still making a nice profit
BC wants the public and fans to believe that their financial situation forces him to be more cautious than other teams is pure bunk
@theman why not trade Bednar? In the past the Pirares traded Joel Hanrahan and got Mark Melancon in return. Bednar can draw a bigger and better trade than of that trade. Pirates have a surplus of SPs and middle infielders. Bednar and SP or middle INFer could get a long term answer at 1B and MLB ready SP prospect. Maybe even a RP that is flying under the radar as well. Plus, there are a few pitchers who have the potential to close out games if Bednar is traded. I see more good by trading him now than holding onto him for another year. His value won’t get much higher than it is now. He’s definitely a top 5 closer in the game. Pirates should at least entertain offers and try to get all they can for Bednar.
Opinions seem to be about half and half on Bednar.
Holderman is not a closer- he wilted when Bednar was unavailable.
At least you are not saying for prospects.
And,yes,you are right,the best ones are getting quite expensive.If the Pirates ever want to compete though,especially for a championship,they will need one of them.
Bednar has been available. No one offered enough. All for trading him but it wouldn’t be a popular move so the return has to be better than fair. You can never have too many prospects. Especially when you can’t develop well. Keller is free agent soon. Thats all they have. Half dozen top tier pitching prospects. Even a good team would be thrilled to have 3 of them pan out. How many will pan out for the Pirates?
Any deadline they are out of it Bednar will be more available. Trading him now wouldn’t go over well with anyone.
I think any franchise would legitimately trade anyone if the return was outrageous – something akin to the Hershel Walker trade that built the Dallas dynasty of the 1990s. I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with trading him, but the casual fan cannot understand the business of baseball. The media piles on and pushes the narrative of how “cheap” the Pirates are, while the reality is that buy low and sell high has been a business principle pre-dating than the written word.
The Pirates have to balance selling tickets against the return, and clearly are asking more than teams want to give, because the Pirates have to include some ticket losses in their asking price.
Pundit-Of course they should trade Bednar if they get an offer that they cannot refuse.But that would be for three ML ready good pitchers.Sort of like the Chris Archer trade in reverse.
This BS about prospects is just that-BS.At a certain point a team has to say “ we want to compete” and provide components for a winning ML team.Bednar is a proven all star and superstar relief pitcher.To get less in trade would be tantamount to signing a pitcher to a $75 M three year contract and having him get seriously hurt after two months.
Small market teams cannot afford that mistake.
Without improvements the Pirates are in danger of winning in the 60’s.
By your definition in that case would another rebuild be begun?
You want Nutting to have better PR but you want to trade Bednar?
When does the focal point become winning games and not collecting prospects?
If you cannot develop well when do you change the developers?
They will decide on Keller after this year and hope that he is healthy at the end of it.They will follow their same philosophy that they had under NH and trade him then if he isn’t resigned.
Skenes will,and 1 or 2 of the others.
Bednar has enough control left that they will not trade him unless they get an overwhelming offer.It was the same as for Reynolds.
Since it just turned December 2nd I will keep this thread going. Can we start new post at the bottom? This can be the Pirates 24 7 365 message board!
Bednar being traded will have no significance to attendance. Fans love him. They will moan and groan. Many will say they are done. Maybe a few people won’t go to some games but others will replace them.
1.5m show up no matter what unless there is a health crisis. 2.3m 2.5m will show up if the team is expected to contend for playoffs. People said they were done when Cole Cutch were traded. Then they traded Musgrove Marte Tailon Stallings Frazier and whoever else. They can trade Keller and Bednar and if somehow they are expected to win 90 100 games 2.3 2.5m people will attend. Attendance record speaks for itself. Unless economy crashes or war or something crazy 2 million and some people will show up if they are winning no matter who the players are. If they rebuild again less than 2 million will show up no matter who the players are.
Right now 1.7 to 2.1 people will show up depending on what they do the next few months.
I always wondered how much money are you saving In cutting your scouting staff vs how many good prospects.
You lose out on because you have less scouts. For a team that has won In the past because they found good young talent and drafted them and developed them. #justasking
Not much. It might have to do more with production.
2017 – 1. Lewis (looked terrible as of 2021)
2017 – A. Rooker – traded away, toss in to Padres in Rogers deal
2017 – 2. Landon Leach – huge bust
2017 – 3. Blayne Enlow – bust
2018 – 1. Larnach – backup corner OF
2018 – 2. Jeffers – solid starting catcher
2018 – B – Traded to Padres to save money off Phil Hughes’ contract
2018 – 3. – Forfeit to sign Lance Lynn
2019 – 1. Cavaco – bust, unprotected
2019 – A. Wallner – looked rough till 2022
2019 – 2. Canterino – nearing bust
2019 – 3. Steer – Traded to Reds as part of Tyler Mahle transaction
2020 – 1. Sabato – Bust, unprotected
2020 – 2. Soularie – nearing bust, unprotected
2020 – 3. – Forfeit to sign Josh Donaldson
2021 – 1. Petty – Traded to Reds for Sonny Gray
2021 – B. Miller – all defense SS, low level prospect
2021 – 2. Hajjar – traded to Reds as part of Tyler Mahle transaction
2021 – 3. Povich – traded to Orioles for Jorge Lopez
2022 – 1. Lee – high level AAA prospect
2022 – 2. Prielipp – near bust, career likely over
2022 – B. Schobel – falling mid level prospect, strugged at AA.
2022 – 3. Forfeit for signing Correa
2023 – 1. Jenkins – Twins #1 prospect
2023 – A. Soto – drafted high school, hasn’t pitched pro yet. MLB team rank #5
2023 – 2. Keaschall – mid level prospect, did well at A/A+
2023 – 3. Winokur – low level prospect. held his own at CPX.
The draft and development record for Falvey’s front office is pretty awful. He’s been living off the scraps of Terry Ryan and Bill Smith for years, while trading away almost every good prospect and player he has to keep the farm from falling completely apart. Gotta scapegoat somebody to keep his job, which was already on the hot seat last year.
The scouts let go were part of international and professional scouting. The trades busts Falvey has made in addition to the draft busts include Wade Jr, Pressley, Barrios, Graterol, Cano, Nick Anderson, Ynoa, Gil, Prelander Berroa, Teng. And he lost Wells and Baddoo to the Rule 5 draft. Add in Encarnacion-Strand to the tragic Reds trade, and a couple of young arms along with Cano in the ill fated Lopez trade with Baltimore, and you have an historic track record of failure.
Not sure the scouts had much to do with the trades, but certainly being unable to properly assess young talent has been an issue for the Twins’ front office.
Scouts didn’t make the trades, agreed, that’s the point—Falvey made the trades and they were terrible. However, Anderson and Cano were actually signings from two of the scouts who were let go. Graterol, Ynoa, Berroa were under Fred Guerrero, who was let go. Teng was from another scout that was let go. Scouts brought in the talent. Falvey traded away the talent. And then Falvey fired the scouts.
If Dom Smith can only post that sort of line in the least pressure situation available…the only situation where he would’ve been guaranteed a job,then why would any team expect anything from him except AAA depth? Why I am even spending a part of my life talking about Dom Smith? Man I need a life.
hahahaha
The biggest change for Pallante was going from having one of the best defenses behind him to having one of the worst defenses behind him. Work on finding what changed with the defense. Positioning? Poor play? Can’t defend well without the shift?
Look at our pity failure from guys previously that were fine…Mickolas, Pallante, Giaggos, Hudson, and others. I point to an article unproven Rusty Dusty guessing how to prepare and handle the staff. Cannot argue that the ine common denominator is the new pitch coach. What a disaster he is
Pallante also has a case of Dakota Hudson Syndrome. He frequently refuses to throw strikes. I think that is partially explained by the aforementioned change in pitching philosophy. He was encouraged to throw off the plate in an effort to generate more swing and miss. He was also encouraged to max out on velocity at the expense of location.
The Cardinals brain trust took an average group of arms and coached them down. That’s why it doesn’t really matter who else we sign. It’s like putting a band aid on a malignant tumor.
You are 100%…
Twins setting up for high pick in the 2027 amateur draft then? Nose/spite/face
Prediction: Pirates sign Votto to a 1 year deal. Trade period comes and he is traded to Reds for a pitching prospect. Votto retires as a Red. Win/Win for everyone.
Better yet, sign Votto as a player/coach and he can teach the rest of the club how to hit/draw walks while he’s at it.
I’d take him over many of the other suggestions.
If they can’t get someone with control and upside then someone like him or santana makes sense.
Votto isn’t what he used to be but likely still an upgrade.
CJ Cron would be a good fit as a stopgap
Predict they sign a switching hitting Santana again. Cron is plan B
Santana has indicated that he would like to return and wouldn’t break Nutting’s bank account
Good defensively and switch hitter. The only negative is his age. They better sign him soon because other teams will want him
Starting pitching is in a limbo right now. Nothing after Mitch Keller with Oviedo on the shelf. Other options are going to take time to figure it out at the MLB level. Outside of Contreras who I don’t think is a starter. Ortiz, Priester, and so on, won’t make an immediate impact. Pirates desperately need 2 (at minimum) starters through sign or trade. I prefer 3 additions to the rotation with a guy who has been a journeyman who starts in the pen and can move to the rotation if needed. It’s a tough pitching market and the Pirates will need to open the wallet to sign 2 or 3 guys. I don’t expect any worthwhile starter to sign for less than 12 million a year. This pitching market hasn’t been this expensive since Gerrit Cole free agency. But the contracts on average for pitching is going to be significantly higher than what the last 4-6 years have seen. It will be pricey for all organizations big or small.
Somewhere Jamie Moyer is thinking he quit pitching a decade early.
Starting and first are definitely the biggest holes. If they sign one pitcher that has a couple years of control and one Hill type they “should” be good. they have a handful of other pitchers that should be up 2024/25
Keller Priester play close to potential with JT hopefully being back okay, signing a 2year deal and a rental will give room for the prospects or those like Contreras to break through.
Bauer would be perfect from the baseball side of things
@joew I totally disagree with you. I think 3 pitchers with a good track record as starters would be ideal. I’d take Jordan Lyles as my 3rd sp but to have him in the pen and potentially coming out of the pen to start. Let’s face it, if you are going to rely on 3 uncertain pitchers whom we saw last year or just coming back from Tommy John surgery, Lyles type can be very needed. I say this because, it’s never smart business to start 3 unproven guys. Your Ortiz, Priester, Williams (I think he might be the closest and that includes Skenes), Skenes, Contreras, JT, and several more (options) takes 3-4 years to master their craft. I’d take 2 starters (that are a lock in the rotation) through free agency and/or trade and sign a journeyman who can pitch from the pen while moving to the rotation as needed. One other thing I’d do, trade a few of Contreras, Ortiz, Williams, and/or Priester for a piece needed at either SP or first base. There are a few teams that have a guy sitting in AAA that is blocked at the MLB level who can play 1B. Priester could be the headliner for that type of trade
1981-The amount of injuries to starting pitchers to me precludes MLB expansion as the pitching is so watered down that AAAA pitchers are prevalent after little more than half a season.
And the union will complain next season if the costs for mediocrities do not remain this high.
So when Tellez was “good”, he hit .219. Is this really what you want from your first baseman?
He also hit 35 home runs and had a BABIP of .242 prior to the new shift rules. The shift teams usually put on Tellez was three infielders on the right side (including the 2B in shallow RF). Tellez may never be a .300+ batter, I’d say Tellez could bat .240-.250 with 30 homers.
@mlb1225 we have agreed to disagree on several topics of the Pirates and what they do. But are you judging a need of Tellez because he can hit 30+ HRs? If that is the case, were is the argument of Dominic Smith who has the similar offensive prowess that Tellez has? At this point, I’d take Santana back over those two options. Santana bat is a “lame duck” these days. He’s not a shell of his former self and to pick him over Tellez or Smith, should tell you how I think of both of them. Forget about the HRs and all this BABIP, WAR, fWAR, etc. at the moment and do the “old school assessment” on these players. I’d love an upgrade over Santana, but Tellez isn’t what I’d classify as upgrade. CJ Cron would be an upgrade over Santana.
1981-Santana is more of a known quantity although aging is not his friend.He is still a good fielder.
Tellez hit 35 home runs in 2022,which is probably 15 more than the entire Pirates team hit! I doubt that he is a good fielder.
Think Pedro Alvarez.
The Pirates are hurting for power badly.They have not had one since the aforementioned Alvarez.
You want the “safe” call,mlb wants to take a chance.
@ML215 Adding Tellez would be adding another Jack Suwinski to the lineup. The Pirates have enough swing and miss (or stare at strike 3) guys. So why add to that with Tellez. To be fair I think of Andy Haines as Pittsburgh version of Matt Canada. Canada is gone in Pittsburgh but Haines stays. I guess Pittsburgh doesn’t care for productive offenses.
1981- To be truthful,Haines makes Canada look good.
They are both risk averse.Haines tells his players to look at pitches( or so I have heard).How many times does Suwinski not swing at the third strike?He was never taught to be defensive then.Old timers used to choke up and put the ball in play.He could be taught a modified version of that.
Some of us think that Haines has photos.
The Pirates are slow to make changes.The one thing that they did do is fire Joe Nunnaly who was the minor league batting instructor who last year got Hayes hitting much better than he ever did before.
Power wins games.Sometimes that one run is all you need on a good team.
And a pitcher’s best friend is his teammate’s three run homer.
The Pirates should live life on the wild side for once.
Suwinski led the league in called 3rd strikes and that is a testament of how Haines instructs the hitters to approach at the plate
Take as many pitches as possible before finding the right pitch
That concept doesn’t work with a team of players who aren’t necessarily good to begin with. Yes, Jack improved last year but he struck out 172 times too
Haines might not be the equivalent of Canada but he’s close
Sign Telez, Ben
D Smith just sucks …period
Years ago I emailed the Red Sox front office to sign a young free agent with about 6 home runs in Minnesota.
Yup it was David Ortiz
True story
When you win the A.L.central by 9 games, your definitely over spending. You look around and see Detroit’s fabled group of young arms who are not so young anymore, and you say pitching even a 100 innings per man may be tough for them. So why spend ?
They’ve long since cost Avila his job, and Harris is in no hurry to sink like a stone either. Keep drafting young guys, and see if Detroit’s young pitchers can get it together. Health is a issue always. Detroit’s always been a town that liked hitting. So if the bats are lively they can forgive a lot on the arms. C.I may have to spend a small fortune just to get to guys that can throw 150 innings without collapsing, but he’ll do it.
No need for the Twins to panic, none whatsoever.
The ownership doesn’t have a goal of winning the division anymore. Ownership’s base goal was advancing in the playoffs this past season.
Winning the AL Central is nice and all, but the front office has been put on notice the status quo is no longer acceptable.
Also, there’s plenty of reason to be concerned considering the Twins have seen 11.0 WAR walk off to free agency this offseason so far. Won the AL Central by 9, watched 11 WAR leave the team and Detroit is signing starting pitching and got their young ace back.
Here’s hoping the Pirates ignore both of these ideas from MLBTR. If you have to sign someone, go with Santana. But give Triolo and even Davis a long look down there
I see no reason for any team to give Dom Smith anymore chances. There is no shortage of first base capable players with more offensive upside. He is a waste of a roster space.
Non-roster ST invite for AAA depth… I’d have no problem doing that.
If Pohlads care about fans sell the team you suck as owners!
Team wins the first playoff game in 20 years after setting a record for franchise payroll 2 consecutive years and puts the front office on notice they’re expected to be advancing in the playoffs or they may not have jobs.
Yeah. Those owners suck!
If the Pirates could get him cheap enough it would be fun to watch Joey Gallo aim for the river.
Rsox- He is the true three outcome guy,but if he walks 100 times and hits 40 home runs I can live with his 200 strikeouts.
He’s good defensively too.
Sign Wil Myers to man 1st base for the Pirates.
The Twins…LOL LOL LOL
“Meanwhile” can’t come in the middle of the sentence; it has to come at the start.
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