9:43pm: Pittsburgh now announced that they selected Ryan’s contract before tonight’s game. They placed Gonzales directly on the 60-day injured list to create the necessary 40-man roster spot. While he’d technically be eligible to return at the end of a long playoff run, it’s clear that Gonzales won’t be back this season.
8:21pm: The Pirates will place Marco Gonzales on the injured list due to a forearm strain, manager Derek Shelton told the Pittsburgh beat (X link via Noah Hiles of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). The Bucs haven’t officially announced that nor a corresponding roster move, but Alex Stumpf of MLB.com tweeted this evening that reliever Ryder Ryan joined the team in San Diego. Ryan is not on the 40-man roster, so the Pirates would need to make another move to bring him up if they place Gonzales on the 15-day IL.
It’s the second time this season that Gonzales has been shelved by a forearm strain. He avoided surgery the first time around but nevertheless was out of action between mid-April and just before the All-Star Break. The southpaw has returned to make four starts. Gonzales only completed five innings in one of those appearances. He surrendered four runs across 2 1/3 frames in his final start of July before allowing five runs over 4 2/3 innings against the Padres last week.
Gonzales has made just seven starts for the Bucs on the whole. He owns a 4.54 ERA with a well below-average 15.2% strikeout percentage and a solid 7.3% walk rate in 33 2/3 innings. That’s fairly typical production for the soft-tossing control artist. Gonzales ate plenty of innings at the back of a rotation at his best in Seattle. He unfortunately has not been able to do that over the last two seasons. A forearm strain also deprived him of the final four months of the 2023 campaign.
The Bucs traded Martín Pérez and Quinn Priester at the deadline. They weren’t selling, but moving Priester allowed them to bring back an upper minors hitting prospect (Nick Yorke) while Pérez was arguably superfluous while Gonzales was healthy. The pair of trades coupled with another Gonzales injury is stretching their starting pitching depth. Pittsburgh has plugged Jake Woodford and Luis Ortiz into the rotation.
Ortiz had a brilliant three-start run in the middle of July but has been hit hard in his most recent trio of appearances. Woodford signed a minor league contract in June after being cut loose by the White Sox. At the MLB level, he has given up 17 runs in as many innings this year. Jared Jones isn’t too far out from returning from a lat strain, but the rotation depth is diminishing at a time when the team is reeling.
Pittsburgh has hung in the playoff mix for most of the season. They’re taking a seven-game losing streak into tonight’s series opener in San Diego. They’re still only five games back of the Braves in the National League Wild Card race, but they’ve dropped five games below .500 and need to jump six teams to get into playoff position. It’s very much an uphill battle.
Gonzales is in the final season of the $30MM extension that he signed with the Mariners back in 2020. The Bucs hold a $15MM option for next year, though that’ll be an easy call for the front office to decline. Pittsburgh is reportedly only on the hook for $3MM of his $12MM salary this year, as the Mariners and Braves each paid down part of the contract among the series of offseason trades that landed him in the Steel City. Even if Gonzales again avoids surgery and is able to make it back for the stretch run, he’ll hit free agency with durability questions going into his age-33 season.
Ryan lost his roster spot on deadline day when the Bucs called up Woodford. He cleared waivers and accepted an outright assignment to Triple-A. The 29-year-old righty made his debut with Seattle last season. He has pitched in 13 games for Pittsburgh, allowing 11 runs (10 earned) across 17 frames. Ryan has tossed 28 1/3 innings with Indianapolis, allowing a 4.45 ERA with a modest 16% strikeout percentage but a strong 50% grounder rate.
Dave Roberts strikes again
Roberts sure has range
I think Tampa did it.
It’s the WBC fault
River’s brother is replacing him
This is very surprising. Big, if true.
Absolutely earth-shattering if accurate
A+ IL. Get him healed up and ready for the playoffs.
Yeah, damn. I just know he was gonna win his last 10 starts or so
why is Ryan coming up and not Stratton?
No idea. Stratton off the IL? Healthy? I prefer Stratton.
Why isn’t Stratton pitching for the Pirates?
He has done a good job all year.
They sent him down because of German as kind of the odd man out in the bullpen after the deadline.
I’m sure he will be back up soon.
Seems like he is much better to me than Ryder Ryan and they easily need the help now.
German was called up the Aug 9 to pitch. Ryder hasn’t pitched since he was called up. I assume Ryder is a place holder. They will either cut bait with German or send him to the bullpen. Stratton maybe replaces Ryder or German later
Why is Haines still the hitting coach for the Pirates? This team remains near the bottom of every offensive category
Why does Cherington still have his job as Gm?
This is year number 5 of his tenure and they aren’t any better this year than last
Why does Shelton still have a job as manager?
They keep losing so maybe we will get our wish.
Addition by subtraction. Can’t even go 5 innings, always hurt.
Which really sucks. He was consistent, both in performance and workload up until last year. Pirates acquired him when they had very little rotation depth and hoped he could add a steady and reliable veteran in the back of the rotation.
Pitched at least 5 innings every start until he got hurt. Had a 2 something era.
A+ Pirates medical. Everyone was worried about his shoulder and it was just fine!
Just another example of wasted payroll by BC this year. If not for Jones and Skenes he and Shelton could be shown the door.
Shelton can’t manage and BC can’t acquire proven ML talent either through FA or trades
Didn’t waste any payroll. Its 3m. That’s nothing. Going to find another mlb starter for 2m or something? Cheap as it gets. Guy got hurt. Happens all the time. Not a big deal.
yes injuries happen to every major league team, except that this team lacks credible depth to overcome injuries
The pitching has been mediocre at best for the past 10 games or so, but the offense has been worse and there’s no one at Indy who’s major league ready for a promotion
They got a infielder ready. Outfielder ready. Two pitchers ready. Two catchers ready.
if these players are major league ready what are they doing playing for Indy?
Woodford is pitching a gem last night against the Padres, only giving up one run on 3 hits and through 6 innings only throwing 74 pitches
Mr. “ I can’t think out of the box “ Derek Shelton, especially considering his bullpen has been overworked or misused the past 10 games, is again brought in to pitch the rest of the game
With having thrown only 74 pitches through 6 innings what was Shelton’s reason for going to the bullpen already?
This is yet another example of him misusing the bullpen
Because if he left him in and he gave up runs you would be saying idiot Shelton left Woodford in too long. He worked last 2 games out of the pen and obviously wasn’t able to handle such a workload.
Don’t need catchers. Don’t need starting pitching. Don’t need infielder. Don’t need outfielder.
When your offense can’t score runs does it really matter if your starter goes into the 7th inning ( and having someone in the bullpen ready just in case)?
Shelton NEVER thinks outside of his box
Woodford was pitching a gem
yes they don’t need an outfielder because they have an AS former GG winner who can barely hit his weight playing center field and who WS contenders would love to have, but don’t because they didn’t offer him a contract or try to trade for him at the deadline
yes Dream, you are absolutely correct
Yeah because Bae is the answer at center or right field and Triolo is the answer for a utility player
Changes need to be made to provide a spark to this lackluster offense and to show the players who have become complacent that hitting below mediocrity isn’t acceptable
Bae and Triolo aren’t starters. Prospects are still being developed. If they won’t play everyday they won’t be called up. If a starter gets hurt they could be promoted.
really wish this site used downvotes.
Why? Are you so sad and miserable you get enjoyment from down voting comments? Or is there another reason?
sites that use downvoting lower the visibility of bad takes
The Cutter the deadliest pitch on the arm. It’s the Bad TIlt.
Some pitching guru geniuses took the safe Roger Beshens Football SLider 90 degree football tilt and morphed it to have a BAD TILT.
Just throw the RBFS and you’re safe.
Good game for Paul. Got to see Joe pinch hit. Shelton didn’t use Holderman Bednar.
And Delacruz had two hits! That Cherington! What a genius!
Nice to see some things never change, as Hayes has another 0-for night along with Taylor, the all-star center fielder, no doubt, if you morph him with two other guys and a hot dog vendor.
yes, SenorFigs, the AS center fielder who every WS contender would love to have but didn’t offer him a contract or try to obtain him st the deadline
If tonight’s game didn’t teach you the value of a good defensive center fielder nothing will. Taylor wasn’t traded because he wasn’t available as the only cf on a contending team. No one else signed him because he held out wanting 8 figures and multiple years. Other teams found other more reasonable options. Basically all you have to have is a pulse and you are in demand at trade deadline. I mean come on now. Hill Choi and Hedges were traded. Taylor is better than them.
Michael A. Taylor had a batting average of .417 with 5 hits and 2 runs scored in 3 games between August 9, 2024 and August 11, 2024
He’s the best hitter ever!
Ke’Bryan Hayes had a batting average of .287 with 37 hits, a home run, 7 RBIs and 14 runs scored in 34 games between June 28, 2024 and August 10, 2024.
Ke’Bryan Hayes had a .333 batting average with 9 hits, a home run, 2 RBIs and 3 runs scored in 7 games between August 2, 2024 and August 10, 2024.
Ke’Bryan Hayes had a batting average of .368 with 7 hits, an RBI and 2 runs scored in 5 games between August 2, 2024 and August 8, 2024
These guys been cooking
every player endures a slump during the course of any given season, but this team has a knack for doing it at the same time and collectively
What is wrong with this scenario?
Everyone knows the answer except the people who make the decisions in management
And if they do know the answer, why aren’t they making changes?
Managers have been fired by other teams with less games to play than the Bucs jn past seasons
Matt Canada was fired mid season with the Steelers last year
Excuses are like a**++les, everyone has one
Taylor is defense only. A lot of his at bats should be filmed and packaged as a How Not to Succeed as a Hitter package
As for Hayes, the biggest mistake of this regime was signing this kid to a long term contract and calling him “the cornerstone of the franchise”
Your analytics again reveal a player who more often times than not rarely comes through in clutch situations.
“Excuses are like a**++les, everyone has one.
And some commenters ARE one.
Dream conveniently forgot to mention the fielding error committed by De la Cruz that led to the go ahead unearned run for the Pads
But he’s really an all-star, no? I mean, let’s look at the analytics
not only an AS, SenorFigs, but every WS contender would love to have him on their team
Except they forgot to make an offer for him at the deadline
You just don’t know ball. You can all gang up and parrot the same thing. It’s cool. But any real baseball fan who wants to learn the game and not sound like a idiot just has to go look at KK stats. Worse than Taylor. Mendoza isn’t chiming in because his team had Pache for a stretch. He knows ball. Center fielders don’t grow on trees. A guy who can play the position will find work. Have your fun though. You aren’t even insulting me. I’m the guy who wanted a Reynolds Pillar Rooker outfield. That would be the worst defensive outfield in baseball. I don’t want glove only guys. But world series contenders do.
you can dish it out but obviously can’t take it, Dream but I know enough about baseball that the current Pirates team stinks and Michael A Taylor contributes nothing to it offensively to make them better
Bae made a few spectacular catches last night in center field and apparently shares the same offensive style as your hero. Despite those catches, they still lost.
A loss of 1 run or 3 runs is still a loss
I can take it. You’re not bothering me the slightest. I’m not a Taylor fan. Read every single article before deadline and you will see dozens of post from me wanting to replace him.
I have learned that it’s not worth my time to argue with you about past statements you’ve made and hope you have a pleasant evening
I am sure you have learned. Because you always accuse me of making statements that I never actually made. I always invite you to quote me and you never do. Because I never said it.
I talked all July about dream cf get Bleday. Next up Siri from Tampa. Realistic rental Pillar.
Yeah not surprised at all you don’t want to argue because I said Pillar center Winker right 100 times. Everyone but you remembers.
Have a pleasant evening as well.
Dream- I appreciate the Mendoza comment.
Sometimes I just sit on the dock of the bay,wastin’ time.
Pache and Rojas have never been seen together in the same room as they are the same player.
Rooker would as we agree be a great fit but basically as a DH.He is an outfielder in the worst way,but the Pirates need hitters in the worst way.
Remember the Jerry Butler song long before your time.
Only The Strong Survive.
IF the Pirates had a Philadelphia cheesesteak vendor instead of the hot dog one the fans would be much happier and cheer louder and be totally satisfied that the Pirates are still a mediocre at best team.
but we have pierogi races and fireworks night, Mendoza
Idk where this comment came from, but the Philly cheesesteaks at Citizens Bank Park are amazing
Paul-Unfortunately I had so many cheesesteaks as a younger man when I moved to the Philadelphia area that I cannot eat them anymore.
They are now part of me.
I found that friend in Pennsylvania but I swear to you that when properly made they are wonderful.
For 8 years, I lived in Clifton Heights, Delaware County, and was very familiar to Philly Cheesesteaks.
Other cities have tried desperately to recreate the cheesesteaks in their own style but all fall dramatically short. No one can make a cheesesteak sandwich like Philly
I appreciate your mentioning my name, Dream, but Holderman couldn’t have pitched, he’s on the IL
Still, you aren’t going to win many games scoring only one run. And again that didn’t happen until the 9th inning. Who again drove that runner im?
The player you were against signing before the season.
But Haines is still employed despite the offense being no better this year than the last 4 he’s been the hitting coach
Dream, Bright Eyes…you’re dealing with the same level of expertise here. Guys who sleep with iPads under their pillows and wake up proclaiming that hey, the Pirates are really much better than what you think you are seeing
They’re not the Russell era Pirates but like them, there’s no light at the end of this tunnel
Bednar probably wasn’t available either after 2 innings yesterday. Don’t care. They why they don’t pitch. Just happy for you they didn’t. Sorry Cruz got 2 hits. I know you were looking forward to posting 3 for 40 17 strike outs.
You always miss my points about players who are unreliable, Dream
I am glad De la Cruz had 2 hits last night, but where was he in the previous 7 games when the offense was struggling?
Answer: he was struggling too
I want this team to be successful and at least be competitive, but something is terribly lacking when every player has a slump at the same time
Bunch of average players. Not enough power. Talents the problem. $ is the problem. Haines is awful but no hitting coach or manager is going to solve the problem.
you don’t know that for a fact until they are replaced
Where is the hitting coach who helped Hayes last year? FIRED is where he is.
Face it, management doesn’t want the offense to improve under the tutelage of any hitting coach than Haines. They still use analytics on a collection of players who aren’t talented enough for that level of skill
Dream- You May be right but at this point the Pirates have to make changes just to show that they are trying.
Cherington was trying at the deadline by getting two decent players and some young ones for nobody who could really make much of a difference.
Either he or Nutting need to show that they are trying by getting rid of the people who are only going to be like Groundhog Day.
They can easily replace the two guys who I am talking about.
Even the Marlins with Peter Bendix are making wholesale changes to the development team.
They now have a lead in getting qualified young coaches to take up the positions,
These things have gone on far too long,Getting rid of the aforementioned two employees now would give them a heads up on next year.
Us geezers do not need a model or a computer to figure this one out,Hopefully Nutting fits the same mold as I doubt that Cherington does,
Cherington is on record as saying that he fully supports the one employee that you’re talking about, Mendoza, so much in fact, BC agrees with the approach this particular employer uses on the hitters
Cherington is as much of a problem that those two employees are
I want them all fired. Keep Oscar. Make him manager even. Hire a new gm and hitting coach every 2 years. Eventually you will find a good one. Cherington was alright. If he fired Haines and didn’t care that Hayes went to minor league coach I would keep him. That’s ridiculous though. Only Supreme Court Justice have more job security than Haines.
De la Cruz committed his second error in as many games and cost the team another unearned run but it matters not
This team can’t score runs to save their season from the basement in the standings
They are now firmly stuck in last place, a familiar position under this regime
All season in Miami 1 error. Already 2 in Pittsburgh.
Holderman is on IL, and Bednar was unavailable due to throwing something like 40 pitches on Sunday.
He knows, Scott. He’s just being a jagoff. That’s not swearing. That’s Pittsburgh
Cherington had to put him on IL to keep Shelton from running him out in high leverage every night and blowing the game. But let’s face it they got 1 reliable reliever right now. So someone has to pitch.
Pitched in 7 games.
I like IKF as 5th infielder or utility but that’s it. De la Cruz doesn’t move the needle. They can’t use the same formula they used in the past with this coming off season. Have to add some difference makers
They will only add players who fit in the budget of what Nuttimg allows them to spend, period
We’ll get reruns of the Michael A Taylor variety who can’t hit his weight but is a good defender
or
give Suwinski another chance to stay on the major league team until it’s become apparent that he hasn’t improved and by that time they are out of contention
or
Keep Connor Joe due to his versatility of playing first base and right field
or
sign another first baseman that no one else wants and with good reason, no power and also can’t hit his weight
and
giving the worst manager and hitting coaches his support and personal praise that they are the best to make this club into a champion
But Cherington will convince the gullible rubes that 2025 is THE season they will turn things around despite knowing they won’t because he’s become great at lying with a straight face
It’s fascinating that guys like Dream and Buctober would have you feel some sense of sympathy for Nutting Inc
We’re talking a billion dollar company here
The talk always turns into histrionics. Dream will ask, “You’re not saying Nutting should spend his own money are you?” Buctober will say, “I know Nutting reinvests every nickel he makes on this team back into the franchise”
It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so disturbing that fans really embrace this drivel
Bottom line is simple. Signing big time players is no problem. Not at all. It’s just that the salary can’t be justified where attendance and merch revenue are concerned. Never mind the other revenue streams, this is a corporation with a ledger and strategies
That’s the bottom line. I do have to laugh at self important types that think old school fans are sitting in rocking chairs with their dentures in a glass, sipping a beer while recounting their careers in the steel mill
Sheesh. Enough already. I don’t know Nutting personally but from a strictly baseball perspective, he’s a carpetbagger.
Excuse me, but screw him and his explanations
Hey figs..I think the buctober and DREAM GM remind me of trolls, not saying that they are, but buctober is like a falling leaf from a tree. Spiraling out of control, not knowing where it will land.
And dream, well I think he’s in a dream state of mind. Dreaming he’s a GM. Dreaming that he knows what he’s talking about. With all of this supposed knowledge, why spend it on mlb trade rumors???? Spewing nonsensical crap. If I wanted to hear crap, I’d just listen to the morons on 93.7
Nutting paid $97 million dollars for this franchise from Kevin McClatchey and this franchise is now valued at $1.3 billion dollars
Nutting is a publisher of 30 newspapers in the tri state area, mostly in West Virginia and Ohio.
He used to own Seven Springs Skiing Resort in Ligioner Pa but sold it
The guy isn’t poor by any means
I have proudly put Buctober on mute because he’s an annoying know it all and is even worse than Dream, who’s tolerable
It’s ok to think this team has had a good year and is in the hunt. It’s ok to see them as being on the cusp of greatness. But yeah, going overboard with snippets and factoids to say that what the entire baseball world sees is laughable, at best
Two years away from being two years away.
What’s wrong with mlbtr? What else am I going to do while on plane or in a car or on the toilet? What nonsensical crap? Like a 3rd string catcher no other team in baseball wanted is good enough to be a starter nonsensical crap? That a guy with a 6 Era who went unclaimed on waivers is good enough to pitch to a 3 Era nonsensical crap? Your right. That does sound like nonsensical crap. And I said it. And I will gladly take my credit for it.
Aww you melt my heart Paul
You always shock me with your choice of words, Dream, but am at a loss of words knowing that you even have a heart, let alone that it can melt
I doubt that Cherington will convince anyone at this point.
Even my dog knows. It.
When I ask him how the Pirates are playing,he says “ruff,ruff”!
IKF is a better hitter than the Pirates 3B, 1B, and entire outfield aside from Reynolds. He’ll be a great utility guy though as he should see a lot of time in the outfield if they don’t improve there, but I think if they keep him around he can play nearly every day.
Hole-IKF needs to be put at shortstop to replace the sieve that they have there.Move the sieve to first base as soon as feasible.
If the sieve will not play there,make him a DH.
If he does not like that,trade him.
Sensible move that unfortunately is unlikely. I mean, if they won’t correct jogging out ground balls Heaven forbid they hurt Cruz’s feelings
if you listen to Shelton after a game they lost partly due to one of Cruz’ erratic throws, the manager always reminds everyone that Cruz didn’t play last year because of injury
As if having spent over a year recovering and throwing erratically has anything to do with his errors
If I were the pirates general manager.
Immediately fire Shelton and the whole coaching staff. I would appoint cutch as acting player manager. Decide in the off-season on a established older manager.
I would dfa tellez, Taylor, Marco Gonzalez, and grandhal.
I would shut bednar down,make Chapman the closer. I would call up Davis and give him a first baseman glove. As much as I am excited about Cruz and his potential, he is not a ss. I would move him to right field…of he won’t go, then trade him. I’d call up 2 more young starters and pair them with skenes, keller and Jones.
I would of traded bednar to Baltimore for Colby mayo. Too late now. Bednar is toast.
I’d call up peguero and play him at short for the rest of the season. See if he’s an everyday ss. I’d try to knock some sense into nutjob Nutting. If that doesn’t work. I would work behind the scenes to find a buyer or a party of buyers.
Just what I would do…and I’m sure the all knowing “your dream gm, in HIS MIND”, will have stupidity to spew.
It starts with the owner, my friend
First and foremost, he’s the problem
For some reason, he has his defenders that gobble up that small market mantra, but this is a profiteer and nothing more.
On the basis of his scouting and player development disasters alone, this GM should go. He’s another guy that somehow has defenders as having quickly “rebuilt” the Pirates
I’ll say this again, this rebuild is like taking a broken down ‘69 Chevelle SS, giving it a new paint job, custom rims and tires. Problem is, the brakes are shot, it leaks oil in 3 places and it smells like someone puked in the back seat
But hey! Rebuild over
To guys like Dream, that’s a rebuild. To most of us, it’s a facade
Shelton, his coaching staff and the entire player personnel department should go next
I give Dream credit for one thing though, and that’s saying good GMs, managers, scouts and player dev types don’t grow on trees. Can’t be easy to find people to work under the Mr Potter of MLB
I had a friend in my youth that would buy cars that needed a good amount of work to pass Pa inspection
He would make the necessary repairs and throw a cheap paint job on the car, then dump oil soaked wood shavings into the engine to allow the engine to function just far enough before the new owner would discover he got robbed
Do what ever now! There needs to be major changes somehow! There is NO Excuse to lose this many in a row!!
Pirates fans here love to b*tch and moan and attack each other in these comment sections. Plus, most offer asinine “solutions” to fix the Bucs’ problems. (Like firing the hitting coach ever made any difference, when it’s the talent that sucks.)
It’s so predictable to see the same old comments whenever there’s a story about a Bucs’ injury, or any roster decision, or any loss.
Take heart, Pittsburgh sports fans. Soon the Steelers will grab your attention with another misfiring, mediocre season, about which you can rinse and repeat your comments.
Yes soon the Steelers will show us why most will be counting down the days before ST starts next year
They haven’t won a playoff game since 2016, have gone through too many QBs including the one that was drafted in the first round 2 years ago, and other than a few outstanding defensive players and a reliable kicker, they don’t have enough depth to make the playoffs this upcoming season
But Tomlin hasn’t had a losing season
NY fans by far the worst. Pittsburgh in discussion after that.
Pirates haven’t spent $ since well forever. No small market has spent more than 130. Every year it’s Nutting needs to spend! Lol. Nutting needs to sell team lol. Nutting can spend his own $. His own $ is mostly the Pirates value. Nutting is only a millionaire until he sells the team. If he was a billionaire he would do what other billionaires do with their excess $. Buy politicians and media.
what happened buccos
I can’t imagine that Nutting is too pleased with this losing streak considering how he didn’t object to Cherington increasing the payroll at the trade deadline ( addition of IKF) and I suspect, with no evidence to support my theory, a member of the upper level of the management staff will be relieved of his duties perhaps as early as Thursday if this streak reaches 10 games
They are in last place in the central division, 7 games out of playoff contention, and the upcoming schedule doesn’t get any easier
Add in the caveat that as late as last weekend on his weekly radio program, Cherington reiterated his belief that they would be playing baseball in October
Nutting might not be involved in daily baseball operations, but he’s not ignorant of how this team has fallen off the competitive ladder
Since July 31, Cruz has committed 6 errors
Their team era in August is 5.79, 26th highest of 30 teams
They are averaging 10.7 strikeouts per game totaling 128 over the past 12 games
They have been shutout twice during this losing streak and only scored one run in two other games
And they have blown 5 of 6 save opportunities
Facts don’t lie and Andy Haines needs to be fired immediately
Not a Haines fan, but lack of scoring is not the fault of the hitting coach here. In August, the Pirates as a team are tenth in BA and OBP. They are 17th in OPS. The troubling statistic is that they are 21st in runs scored. The disparity between their hitting and their getting on base on one hand and their scoring on the other suggests two potential problems. First, lack of clutch hitting. Second, in-game strategy. The second problem has nothing to do with the hitting coach and everything to do with the manager and the bench coach who determine in-game strategy. Yesterday, the Pirates outhit the Padres as they failed to move runners and squandered their chances. I’d worry less about Haines and more about strategy, Shelton and Don Kelly.
I guess it’s Shelton and Kelly’s fault that they strike out on average of 10.7 times per game over the last 12, too?
They walked zero times last night while striking out 15 times. That suggests more of impatience on the batters and a lack of understanding of the strike zone
Those issues fall on the responsibility of the hitting coach not the bench coach or manager
Yawn. Probably yes. Willie Stargell lead the league in striking out in 1971, the same year he lead the league in homer runs. At one point, Babe Ruth lead both leagues in career strikeouts and career home runs. Guess they did not understand the strike zone?
Striking out is determined by many factors, not just an understanding of the strike zone. If a player is told to take a 3-0 pitch and eventually strikes out, that first strike is not on him, but on the manager and bench coach. If a player swings for the fences on two strikes, instead of shortening up and just making contact, does that reflect on the hitting coach or the approach the team under the manager have adopted. Does the coverage or lack of coverage that a batter gets in the lineup reflect on the batter or the manager? Watching the game last night, I heard the announcers discuss the difference of Hayes batting early in the line up before Reynolds and Hayes batting late in the lineup. It is something to consider. What makes baseball interesting is that it is a nuanced game, multifaceted game, not a simplistic plug and play game.
As I initially said, I am not a Haines supporter and have previously called for him being removed, but, as repeatedly stated, I think more serious problems lie with the game strategy that squanders what hits the Pirates get. Lately, the Pirates have often outhit their opponents but still have lost. They have outhit the Padres in both games so far and have managed to lose both. On numerous occasions the Pirates open an inning with a double. The bat boy might as well run out a lawn chair for the guy on second because the next three batters will swing out of their shoes and leave him there.
Yawn back
Willie Stargell was a power hitter who actually hit homers and drove them in. Comparing his strikeouts to any of the current players who strike out on a regular basis is ridiculous
Outhitting their opponents is one thing, when only one or two of those hits are for extra bases, that’s another
They managed just one double in last night’s game but also hit 8 singles and with runners in scoring position, players struck out
And maybe game strategy plays into this collapse, we should know more in today’s game with Shelton using his Sunday lineup against former Pirates ☠️ pitcher Martin Perez
I must have the yawner muted. Yeah, I’m finally utilizing the button for guys who are true believing drones. No thanks
Connor Joe needs to stop checking his swings. and Perez strikes out the side
Is that part of Shelton’s game strategy?
The moron leaves keller in to take a beating ….keller doesn’t deserve to be THE MORONS scapegoat….dam I hate this guy so bad
If I were Skenes, Keller,Jones or any other pirate starting pitcher,I would want traded. Even the youngsters coming up. He leaves keller in for 5 innings, getting battered,why??? BECAUSE THE MORON CANNOT MANAGE A PITCHING STAFF.ESPECIALLY A BULLPEN…IN FACT THIS IDIOT SHOULD NEVER PUT ON A PIRATE UNIFORM EVER AGAIN…HES AN ALBATROSS
Because someone has to pitch. Pitchers have a daily weekly monthly yearly limit. Keller didn’t reach his daily limit. 8 0 the odds of coming back are well you watch this team you should know. Keller didn’t give up any runs 4th or 5th so he hardly got battered.
Thursday is an off day, Shelton could have used his long relievers to help tamper down the beating
The bullpen should have had pitchers warning up when the Padres scored their 4th run because it was obvious that Keller didn’t have his best stuff
You think 1 off day and the long relievers are good to go?
4 runs game is over most days anyways. I see your stats you post. Bottom in everything except strike outs.
giving up 8 runs in 4 innings is getting battered. Just because he didn’t give up more doesn’t mean he pitched well
Tomorrow is an off day so there was no reason to keep Keller in as long as Shelton did
But, none of this matters, their offense stinks, striking out 8 times against a former Pirates pitcher in 5.1 innings.
Hayes swings at pitches nowhere close to the plate, and there only run is from a Bart homer
They are as a team, 5 for 47 with runners in scoring position during this road trip
It’s time for someone to lose their job, losing can’t be acceptable
I agree with you…I don’t want them to wait till the season is over to make any firings. It needs to happen now. They can still salvage a 500 mark. This would give the younger guys cause for optimism heading into next year. Keeping MORON and his stooge coaches guarantees more losses and the younger guys questioning the future, of the team and their own future. Losing is like cancer, you have to cut it out before it becomes deadly.
Shelton is a moron but I seen bigger ones than him.
just because Shelton’s not the worst manager you’ve seen doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve to lose his job
At this point, I would be happy with Lloyd McClendon and David Eckstein as the hitting coach
I said this on another discussion board, but it bears repeating. This is not really a playoff caliber team. That being said, there are/were opportunities because the division is pretty weak. But you need a manager with some imagination and inspiration to get the maximum potential from this roster and Shelton has neither. Remember last year when they got off to that terrific start by stealing all the time and playing small ball? Then, the other managers caught on and that strategy was abandoned. The strategy was still sound. They just needed to adjust. But Shelton had already been awarded an extension so he didn’t care, apparently. Watch this team and tell me they are motivated and inspired by this coaching staff to win.
Agreed 100% and you hit upon what to me is the determining factor of whether a manager should stay or go: does he inspire his players to give max effort at all intervals?
Shelton opted to be a Chuck Tanner type in how he handles players, a good uncle. The trouble is, those Pirates teams had clubhouse leaders that exuded professionalism. Stargell. Bill Robinson. I remember Bill Madlock coming here with a purported bad attitude and he became the consummate professional.
These are largely a group of kids that he allowed to become complacent. And there is no veteran clubhouse presence ala Stargell or AJ Burnett.
You see it with so easily accepting losses, jogging out grounders and pop ups, admiring long fly balls that turn out to be long singles. The list is endless. It becomes a mindset among players. No, they don’t feel the motivation
Look at other young teams in Baltimore and Cleveland. The talent level may be a disparity—that’s another conversation—but game in and game out they play with passion. They seemingly hate to lose
But it’s all permitted here with a GM who’s largely asleep at the wheel
when the manager can no longer inspire or motivate his players, he’s lost control of his team
In any competitive sport, this is true
Absolutely. As silly as the whole “captain” thing seems in NY, you can bet that Judge is going to be waiting in the dugout to tell whichever Yankee just blew it on the field. Where is that guy on the Pirates? Could be McCutchen, but it isn’t—not sure why. Could be Reynolds—he’s literally the only guy (maybe Bae) that runs everything out full speed—but I don’t think he has the personality for it. Hayes? Yawn. Tellez? Maybe if he wasn’t a rental and he didn’t suck for so long.
Player-leaders see important and I don’t see them on this team. That being said, it has to come from the coaching staff and it’s not. I see little flashes from the pitching coach—they seem to respect him—but not Shelton of Haines.
It’s a real shame because there is talent here, but very little accountability and definitely zero drive from the coaching staff. The last person to inspire the team was Skenes and that didn’t last. It shouldn’t be a 22-yr-old rookie. They need a reset and that means cleaning house in the on field coaching staff. GM too, probably, but I don’t see that happening.
Carlos Santana. Always ran out plays. Just watched a video of laziest plays in baseball and Puig a big name didn’t run out a play, didn’t even leave the batters box or drop the bat and Santana wasn’t pleased. Or one time after a loss players were laughing and playing video games or watching tv and let’s just say they needed to replace the tv.
Instead of Santana they sign the fattest laziest slob in baseball who tells fans of a team he’s been with for a month who they can and can’t boo.
I kind of see Cutch as an extension of Shelton’s approach. Another nice uncle. Ok, so perhaps he keeps the dugout loose but there is no one here that’s pushing professionalism.
they would have to go 22-20 to equal their record from last season and it’s becoming doubtful they will
Nutting said that making the playoffs this year was his hope
I believe Nutting will be disappointed
( welcome to the old time fans of this team, Bob)
Nutting knows how to do interviews and say nothing. He said “losing is unacceptable” this past spring. Yeah. Ok
But he puts limits on his budget.
What did he think would happen with this roster?
Disappointed? As long as people are attending games and buying his team’s merch, he’s laughing all the way to the bank
I think nutjob Nutting takes after small hands when it comes to hypocrisy in interviews. ALL LIES…and yes MORON DID NOT HAVE YO LEAVE KELLER IN…IT DOES NOTHING FOR KELLERS PSYCH TO LEAVE HIM IN…MORON HAS NO CLUE…AND HE IS THE WORST MORON TO EVER MANAGE OR COACH ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM
i was wrong about how many newspapers Nutting is publishing, it’s not 32, it’s 100.
Of course he inherited the publishing company from his father, meaning he’s not self made billionaire
The Pirates to him, nothing but an annual cash cow. There’s no evidence that he reinvests his profits back into the franchise like one gullible ruble said
In 2020, he took money earmarked for the team salaries and spent it on refurbishing Pirate City because he knew that other teams having to pay their share of the luxury tax, his share would go towards salaries and profits
Nutting never spends anything more than necessary to keep the gullible rubes happy enough to attend games
As long as he owns the franchise we will never see another championship from our beloved Pirates
I had to laugh in remembering a poster here saying the schedule would get easier if they could just get through this road trip. I’m looking at their schedule and have to wonder just where these weak sisters are. The Pirates are that weak sister
Did they really think their starting pitcher could keep them “in it” with such an anemic, nonchalant group of hitters?
Whoever isn’t LA SD ARZ is easier. Not going to make a difference though. You had to win a few games of the last 10. Miami is on schedule they are pretty bad. We stole their big bat Cruz!!!! Washington isn’t better….. yet. Reds are about the same. I haven’t looked to see who else but know those teams are coming. Long as it isn’t a NL west team other than Colorado I will take it. Although now I am rooting for them to lose so we can be like a blind squirrel and find that Bobby Witt nut at the top of the draft.
No. The Guardians aren’t easier. By a long shot. Any team vying for a WC berth—and that’s the majority of teams—isn’t easier. And that’s especially true when the opposing team is hungry and you couldn’t care less
Bobby Whitt Jr, draft #2 in the 2019 amateur draft and is currently in his 3rd full season with the Royals
Our previous and latest high draft pick can’t hit major league pitching and is trying to figure it out at Indy
Dream says that our draft picks have been good but those players’ numbers show otherwise
Dream also said that the Martin Perez that pitched against us yesterday was the same one we had but that’s not true either
I read in a San Diego sports page that he was so effective against us because he mainly threw breaking balls and only used his 4 seam fastball a few times
That isn’t the same pitcher we had and apparently the Padres pitching coach took notice
finding a Bobby Whitt Jr clone at the top of the draft board will only be as good as our player development will allow him to be
Before thinking about next year’s draft let’s start from scratch and get new management
They play the Mariners this weekend and about the only thing they have in their favor is when Skenes pitches and even that’s not an easy win
There’s been at least a dozen team transactions on this site since the Bucs lost yesterday but the one that only matters and hasn’t happened is the one headline that Shelton and Haines have been fired
Read Joe Starkey’s column in today’s PG. he says everything we have. Astonishing.
of course, we aren’t the only ones who see this team in the same fashion, SenorFigs
I read every possible column associated with this current team today, including Starkey’s and none were positive grades
You think the Guardians would do just as well in a division where every single team wasn’t owned by Bob Nutting? Better by a long shot? I seen the talent the NL west teams had. Cleveland has a Ohtani Smith Freeman? Did you just look at SD record or look at their talent? Their record is mostly with a 5th stater that was so bad they trades for Perez. Mostly without Musgrove. Their bullpen was a weakness but then at the traded deadline they added 2 of best relievers in baseball. I will say Cleveland is similar but to go better by a long shot I can’t do. That’s 3 games though. Seems Pirates have been playing the better teams for ever. Just was one juggernaut after another.
You should be Royals fan then if they are so amazing. Or Padres since you are already reading their paper.
If they seen something with Perez why didn’t they sign him for Nutting? What they see in Rich Hill last year? All I seen was the 8.23 era he had pitching for them! Lol
Where’s the Royals 2023 draft pick? Pirates 2023 draft pick was the starting pitcher in the all star game!!!!
I don’t remember comparing the Guardians with NL West teams. Point was that you can’t call it easier for the Pirates when they’re playing teams that are hungry. Cleveland is. Any team playing for a division or WC berth is. The Pirates look like they’ve packed it in
I don’t know why you are so impressed. You can ask Senor or Mendoza right now who aren’t the Padres pitching coach if they would throw more breaking balls or fastballs vs the Pirates. They seen not 1 but 2 cruz swing at them. Other than Cutch Bart and Reynolds if you throw a breaking ball in the dirt our scrubs will swing at it. Still don’t want to give those guys fastballs. That’s baseball 101. Perez is same guy. Pirates just didn’t maximize him. Other teams getting more out of former Pirates happens all the time. Been going on for a long time. Like 40 some years. Looks like it’s going to continue.
I’ll take anyone over the NL west teams. I won’t be surprised if they get 2 wild card teams. Heck might get all 3. Giants got a shot. They were already good and went out and got some of the best players available at deadline. But there’s no easy teams other than maybe Miami.
Senor-Joe Starkey was one of the columnists on Bob Pompiani’s show last weekend and he was basically saying the same things that we have been saying for a while now.
I am convinced that Nutting will have to intercede to make changes like he did five years ago.
Dream- I knew that this would be a bad stretch but did not think that they would become this miserable this quickly.
They do not have many “easy” teams left and need to play better than 500 against the decent teams now.
And BC saying that they are still in the playoff hunt tells me that he is not with it.
And that would explain a lot.
He could do a very good job if he had a veteran baseball guy over him to correct his inadequacies.
“Your definition of bad baseball may be different than my definition of bad baseball,” Shelton said
“We need to catch a break,” Shelton said on 93.7 The Fan. “We haven’t played bad baseball. We’ve lost, since the break, nine one-run games. We’ve lost, during this stretch of the eight, six one-one games. We’re just not finishing games or making the big play to get us to a victory right now. It’s extremely frustrating.”
What’s the definition of failure again?
And Shelton is a lifetime subscriber of doing the same things over and over again
I’ve always subscribed to the idea of putting pressure on the defense any way you can. Short game. Hit and run. Steal. Opposite field hitting.
Yeah, catch a break. Some of these at bats make me wonder if Shelton is just asleep in the dugout
Reading the Starkey article. I like this “Cherington, in Year 2 of trying to win after a three-year tank job” Every other clown I heard talked about Shelton having the worse win record ever. Like him and Cherington have failed at contending for 5 years. Might be the smartest thing anyone in Pittsburgh sports has said.
“might have missed on the top overall pick three years ago” Cherington had to make that pick 3 years ago. Doesn’t have hindsight. But even 3 years later you don’t know even I don’t know if he missed the pick. It’s tuff. It was Davis and Bubba or Someone else and not Bubba. That’s the problem. If Bubba wasn’t a factor it opens the door to other players. I thought at the time it was easy. Pick at #1 whoever is willing to sign cheap enough to get Bubba. Even 3 years later it’s cloudy because Bubba looks really really good. It’s almost whatever you get out of Davis is bonus and Bubba was #1 pick. I mean if you had to release one of them right now it’s see you later Davis right?
It’s a fine article. Don’t know why you wanted me to read it. I been saying player development has been awful for 10 years. Reason Huntington got fired was player development. Hitting development has been awful under Cherington every year. Only started taking baby steps recently. Too little too late. Starkey lost me on give them another year. Hot seat not fired. I am ready to clean house right now. But if they do something special the next month I am willing to reconsider my position. If they only fired Haines last year I would be fine with giving them 1 more year.
Cherington saying this makes me wonder if they are just going to go with Skenes and Jones through the end. If he really thinks they’re in it , what’s the recourse?
Keller is in his annual swoon and then you have Ortiz and Falter. Ok. Then what?
I’m a fan, Dream. I want the team to do well. Too often, I think criticism that I bring—or TheMan, Mendoza and Buccoprojectory bring—gives the idea that we’re all cranky old dudes
They won tonight. That’s nice
But jeez, there are so many holes in this lineup that transcend the idea that they’re just young players getting acclimated
I like that you guys complain a lot and don’t agree with me. If you all agreed with me I would get bored and find something else to do with this time. You complain about the wrong things though. Lineup doesn’t matter. IKF a weak power guy was in heart of order they still won. Bednar pitched 9th. Still won. Everyone on the roster has to pitch and hit. A couple guys can pitch in lower leverage when possible. Couple guys will ride bench more often. If you’re on the roster you are going to play and it doesn’t matter where. Small potatoes.
Shelton is a good strategist. Haines sucks. Those are minor problems. The problem is talent. Pirates got Joe Cruz Bart Grandpal Rowdy Taylor Palacios for absolutely nothing. If another team had a hitting coach that could make them better they would have got those guys. They didn’t see anything to improve. Haines has to go. But I don’t expect some amazing improvement from a new hitting coach. A new hitting coach that the rest of the teams in baseball don’t want as their hitting coach.
How do you get talent? Spend $ is easy way….. Let’s move on to other options. Trade for it. But you have to have talent to trade to get talent. What talent the Pirates have to trade? Not much. Nothing that would get you a can’t miss prospect type. Stallings didn’t have any value. Bart better pirates got for free. Diaz equal just went unclaimed. Frazier? IKF better than him. Didn’t trade a can’t miss for him. Rich Rod was a cheater so nothing for him. Taillon coming off 2nd TJ? Come on now. Bell? Not happening. Leaves two good not great or elite trade chips. And they brought back good not great elite prospects. So only option left is to develop it. Hardest option and they failed miserably.
I saw your pitching post above a little late and you’re right. As a pitching coach, there’s little reason to throw fastballs to the Pirates hitters. Undisciplined, unaware of both the count and the umpire’s strike zone, it’s no wonder a pitcher like Perez had them eating out of his hand with breaking stuff
We used to teach the art of “one-off” pitches to kids we instructed. That is, hitting spots one-off the strike zone anywhere around the plate
Granted, not every kid could master it but those that did found great success. And it didn’t matter how hard you threw. Greg Maddux would be the poster boy for it.
On one hand, even making contact resulted in lesser results but on the other, either a generous ump would call the pitch a strike or a hitter who struggles with a spot on the zone would get eaten up by such pitches
The Pirates would be a dream team to pitch against with this mentality. Especially guys like Hayes
Pirates are in competition for easiest lineup to strike out in baseball. I faced tons of Cruz Cruz hitters. You just show them a fastball to change their eye level and remind them you have one. Throw it in their cold zone. Sometimes you hit a corner and they go down looking. If not you come back with a slider in the dirt. They should rarely get a cruz missile. Only way they get one is if you really miss or they golf one out. I watch these games and am like why a fastball here? That’s in his hot zone. Don’t leave that sweeper up so high, I don’t care that he already swung at 2 in the dirt he will swing at a 3rd. And against a lefty he doesn’t have a chance. First priority vs a lefty he is looking to walk. 2nd he is just sitting on fastball. I just sit at home talking to the pitcher through the tv yelling while laughing put it in the dirt. There ya go.
Exactly. But let’s face it, pitching is a lost art. Very few Mazzones left in the game to teach pitchers how to think. Now it’s simply either trying to muscle the ball by batters or finesse corners.
Hitters adjust more quickly than ever. Keller seems to find this out every year. In a way, I’ve noticed hitters adjusting to Skenes, too. That’s not a criticism per se, it’s just noticeable. Having an array of pitches helps and mastering them is the key. One-off pitches and changing eye levels are art forms
You mentioned Cruz here. Exactly right
Cutch has always been a sucker for fastball/sliders in the dirt combinations. Hayes is consistently fooled by spin pitches low and outside.
The list is endless and again, if it occurs to me and you, then why is a catcher calling pitches that get tagged?
By the way, Dream, I find myself in agreement with your insights more often than not. “Argue” is not the applicable word here
I am in agreement with many here like TheMan3, Mendoza, Buccoprojectory and others
To me, it’s all good natured convo that gets us away from the real world problems. That I disagree with overuse of analytics or a given player the Pirates sign in the long run doesn’t dissuade from the idea that most of us are pretty tired of what’s being put on the field every year and the propaganda stream that says hey, we are so close.
They are close. They just need 1 or 2 big bats. They can’t buy them. Can’t develop them. That leaves trading for them. That means trading prospects they can’t afford to lose because of the development problems. So they will remain close. But a bat or 2 they are a playoff team.
There is another way though and that is being solidly a average. You kick out Triolo Bae Jack Joe. If you don’t have any studs you can’t have weak links. Gonzales at 2b with IKF as utility means Triolo never touches a bat. If someone gets hurt you call up Yorke. Hmmm it almost seems like Cherington realizes he can get the big bats and has to resort to this plan. Get a above average cf and instead of having Taylor and Bae playing everyday you just have one playing once a week. You eliminate all your awful bats or they start once a week. They need to play more than once a week so you pinch run, defensive replacement, come in and hit during blow outs. Maybe have to start them twice a week. Or better yet you get better backups. You can live with Joe Taylor as backups starting twice a week. Can’t make it with them as starters.
Trade deadline didn’t improve the team. If Gonzales and Palacios were healthy it would have. But the 2 guys added simply replaced the injuries. Triolo is still the utility guy. IKF as utility guy fantastic. Anyone can get a day off and you don’t lose any production. I won’t blame them for the deadline. Guys that could help were simply to costly. Guys who could really really help weren’t even available to trade for.
They’ll only be close if the 2025 pitching staff stays healthy. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out. You have Keller, Skenes, Jones and then a pool of guys including Burrows, Oviedo, Harrington, Chandler, Ortiz, Falter, Ashcroft…..who stays, who goes to middle relief, who becomes a trade chip and who gets sent down?
I was of the belief they need two big bats but even beyond that there are questions. Will Endy hit? What becomes of Davis? Is Nick for real? Will Hayes ever move beyond being a fringe player? How close is Termarr? And have they seen enough of Cruz at short?
The thing about Cherington which is disconcerting is that he likely has trade pieces here but years in, can’t figure out where everyone fits
Based solely on what we’ve seen, Davis, Suwinski, Bae, Taylor, Grandpal, Tellez and to me, Hayes, are tradeable. Not sure what they’d bring back
And I’m betting there is drama where closer is concerned. How many guys are they going to keep between Bednar, Chapman and Holderman? Looks like they’re grooming Nicolas to close
Taylor, Grandpal, Tellez are finished in a month and a half. They will be free agents so not trade value for them. Others very little.
Dunno. Not worried about it. Gonzales looks for real, a real average player. Endy looks like he will hit, hit for a catcher, can he catch? Should. Davis needs to hit. If he does they will find a position. Even if it’s catching twice a week and dh rest if time. Hard to predict. None of these guys are fully developed. IF they fire Haines, it’s sad that no one would be surprised if they didn’t, maybe they get a real hitting coach. If not maybe they get help elsewhere.