The Pirates are parting ways with hitting coach Andy Haines and bullpen coach Justin Meccage, report Andrew Destin and Noah Hiles of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. It’s not clear whether there’ll be other changes to Derek Shelton’s staff.
Pittsburgh hired Haines to replace Rick Eckstein over the 2021-22 offseason. The 47-year-old had spent the previous three seasons as hitting coach in Milwaukee and logged one year as an assistant with the Cubs. The Bucs ranked 26th in scoring over the past three seasons. They were 24th with 665 runs this year, while their .234/.301/.371 batting line placed them in the bottom third of MLB in all three slash stats.
As is the case with any coach, it’s difficult to judge their work based on the results alone. PNC Park isn’t an easy venue for hitters and the Bucs are light on proven offensive contributors beyond Bryan Reynolds and an aging Andrew McCutchen. Pittsburgh simply hasn’t gotten enough development from their young hitters in recent seasons, though. By measure of wRC+, only four of the 13 Pirates hitters with at least 200 plate appearances had above-average offensive performances. Reynolds and McCutchen were joined in that regard by Joey Bart and Oneil Cruz.
Bart, a reclamation flier from the Giants, dramatically cut his strikeouts and hit .265/.337/.462 in 80 games. The toolsy Cruz had his first 20-20 season, though he still struck out in more than 30% of his plate appearances. While this was a successful year for Bart and Cruz, the Pirates had a handful of disappointments.
Ke’Bryan Hayes and Jack Suwinski were expected to be key contributors but had terrible seasons. Nick Gonzales and Jared Triolo didn’t make much of an impact. Former first overall pick Henry Davis has hit .191/.283/.307 in 99 games over the past two seasons. Buy-low free agent pickups of Rowdy Tellez and Michael A. Taylor didn’t pan out, nor did bringing in Isiah Kiner-Falefa and Bryan De La Cruz provide a jolt at the deadline. That’s certainly not all on the hitting coach, yet there’s no question the offense has held the Pirates back from breaking out of a rebuild that’ll be entering year six under Shelton and GM Ben Cherington.
Pittsburgh added Meccage to the staff in 2018 as an assistant pitching coach. He moved to bullpen coach going into 2020 and has held the position for five seasons. Pittsburgh’s bullpen had the fourth-highest ERA in the majors this season, allowing 4.49 earned runs per nine. They ranked 20th in strikeout percentage (22.9%) while posting the seventh-worst walk rate (10%).
Pittsburgh coaxed a breakout year from waiver claim Dennis Santana and got decent production out of Carmen Mlodzinski, Colin Holderman, Luis Ortiz and $10.5MM free agent pickup Aroldis Chapman. None of those players are lockdown late-game weapons, though. David Bednar was expected to anchor the group out of the ninth inning. He had a very poor season, struggling to a 5.77 ERA with a dip in strikeouts and a spike in home runs to lose the closing job. Bednar had broken out as one of the game’s best relievers under Meccage’s tutelage between 2021-23.
The only way this headline could get even better is if Shelton was being scrapped along with Haines and the bullpen coach.
Shelton isn’t in charge of player development, trades, or free agent signings. He just writes in the names that Cheringtons analytics department tells him to. Firing Cherington would have been the only firing that mattered.
like with the International Scouting Development program, that Cherington himself oversaw for 3 years, Haines is another aspect that have become a fall guy for the failures of the General Manager
I do applaud this decision but it’s still not enough. Ben should have been included in this dismissal and taken Shelton along with him
Fall guy or poor choice, he is still gone.
Good players taking a step back is coaching’s fault too though. Seeing Bednar/Keller/Hayes etc. all get worse this season is concerning.
The fall guy might have been the bullpen coach. I thought Mlodzinski and Nicolas improved throughout the year. Its Shelton’s fault for not calling the bullpen in a timely manner to get ineffective pitchers out of there. How many times did a close game turn into a blowout? Or an easy win turn into an unbelievable loss because Bednar or whomever was left in the game way way too long?
you make a valid point, bucsfanooo4
especially in games where Bednar doesn’t have his good stuff and allows a few base runners without having recorded an out yet, Shelton practically waits until Bednar has given up a run before calling the bullpen to get a pitcher warmed up
Bednar had 7 blown saves this year and lost 9 games
Shelton also waited too long to remove Bednar from the closer role
The bullpen coach was a sacrificial lamb. Nothing more. The idea that hey, they’re doing something.
Marin calls the shots on pitchers and truthfully, he’s nothing special. How so, when Keller went 1-7 down the stretch and Bednar couldn’t spot his spin pitches?
I believe they were trying to see if Nicolas or Mlodzinski could fill the closer role someday but there’s still work to be done
I suspect Bednar could be fixed with a competent pitching coach. I just don’t think he’ll find one in the organization. Keller is another guy who could use another opinion
But this move was typical Pirates
Marin isn’t anything special either. Could do worse. But a Bob Nutting Pittsburgh payroll ideally needs better.
In the 4 years that Marin has been the pitching coach, second half starting pitching performances have all failed and that includes Mitch Keller, who before the arrival of Skenes, was considered the ace of the staff
Hopefully, Marin won’t get his proverbial hands on Skenes
There are valid reasons why the Pirates have stumbled down the stretch in each of the past two seasons, one has been terminated from the coaching staff, more should also lose their positions.
Question is, will Nutting step up and do what is apparently necessary to clean house and bring in better leadership throughout this organization
Highly doubtful. It appears Marin Shelton Cherington Williams are all retuning. Other teams have fired their gms and managers already. Notice how they didn’t fire their bullpen coach before doing so. Get ready for season 6 with the same mo rons running things.
Dream GM-The big key for me with Cherington is how much influence he has had over Shelton and Haines
If he has been basically telling them the hitting philosophy and the lineups and when to make pitching changes then they are just his puppets.
If that is true then these problems do indeed start with him and as he has honestly mentioned.
And,if so,then he should be fired too.
Problem starts and ends with Nutting.
This is like winning the pennant in Pittsburgh
Dealing with a clueless hater figures
He’s right. Haines was a disaster in Milwaukee. Check their hitting since hes been gone. Haines is only part of the problem. Shelton and his atrocious game management is most of it.
In the last game even the Yankee announcer questioned why Shelton was coming out to replace Holderman.
Because he was a professional he didn’t call him an idiot but it was implied.
Maybe because the season was over and they didn’t want to waste any more innings?
Don’t know the situation, but it was a completely meaningless game for both teams.
I saw that. Once I saw Shelton climbing out of the dugout I screamed game over because Sheltons decisions are usually wrong even though Carmen M….was previously throwing well.
Holderman just hit a batter on the foot with a curveball . Hadn’t give up a hit or walk and there were 2 outs.
Yankee announcer thought Shelton was bringing in a left hander to make the switch hitter bat from the other side in a meaningless game and made a joke about it.
To everyone’s surprise he brings in another right handed pitcher which had to puzzle him and me and 40,000 plus in attendance.
Another loss chalked up to his over managing even in a meaningless game. Anyone else would have sat back and let the pitcher finish the inning but he wanted to show the GM that he was still managing ?
no, winning the pennant would be what people in Pittsburgh consider a good story
Is getting moved off of shortstop, striking out a gazillion times, and having scary contact issues a successful season? Is getting 20 homers and 20 steals that important?
Are people calling esteury Ruiz a good offensive player because he steals a ton? Are people calling 2022-24 Joey gallo a good offensive player because he hits 20 homers?
Sorry with all of the questions I can give so many more examples
He had an almost .800 OPS and came on pretty strong second half of the season. Tearing the cover off the ball, finally seeing that exit velocity mean something. Insane strikeout totals but can still draw a walk, just needs to tune things up, and I think moving to CF was great for him.
He looked 100x better in CF than I, and probably many others, could have expected. Hope he conitnues to make strides there next year, because based on the small sample size of playing time, he was getting some very good jumps and was tracking the ball down very well.
181 strikeouts versus 49 walks, Cruz ended the season in an 0-20 slump with 11 ks
He’s a free swinger who still doesn’t know the strike zone which was a problem for just about every player this year and their franchise record of 1506 strikeouts are evidence
And you don’t think that some of the blame falls on the hitting coach?
yes I definitely do blame the hitting coach
The approach matters. Some hitting coach prefer a pitcher throwing more pitches, while others prefer attacking early. Cruz is usually not aggressive early. That’s an approach. Leavhim suseptible to the slow stuff out of the zone.
BS
Cruz hit .161 in September, which is hardly factual at hitting the cover off the ball
First off Cruz to me had a really good year. Moving to center field will relieve him of a strain of playing short stop.
And he did miss most of the previous year. Hitting 20 home runs and stealing 20 bases is nothing to scoff at. He had a respectful 76 runs batted in. He has speed and power.
Oh and the strikeouts you say, a gazillion. Strikeouts are up all over the league. This guy has a ton of talent. Give it a year.
I love when people tear a person up over negatives, but not their positives.
This brings me to the writer of this article. Sure the pirates hitters sucked. The blame goes to Haines and he’s gone. The writer said the pirates were short of good talent. But he also stated that Gonzales didn’t have much of an impact. DO YOUR Homework before writing. Gonzalez was one of the better hitters with men on base. He also listed the relief pitchers and said none were lockdown types. In this list was Chapman. Are you kidding me,??? Sure he’s older, but when Bednar failed, Chapman locked down plenty of games. He’s one of the greatest ones of all time.
These writers, the ones MLB trade rumors wants us to donate money to, lol. I will when you find decent writers. Not ones ,who like the comments on this site, write with their feet. Be knowledgeable of what you are writing about. Don’t write what your opinion is. Journalists are supposed to report the news, NOT MAKE IT UP
I wasn’t discounting Cruz’ positive achievements but he has his share of shortcomings too, Bucco
And using the excuse that he missed the previous year due to injury is lame. Every player in history has suffered from injuries, no one used that as an excuse to blame for his shortcomings
Cruz has always been a free swinger, his strikeout total in 22 are proof
Lastly I don’t care about what other players from other teams are doing in terms of strikeouts, I only care about the Pirates
Just looking at Cruz’s numbers, yeah, I can see why someone would say it was such a positive season. We have analytics morons like bright eyes here who do such things often—remember his idea that Suwinski was an all star?
I’ll agree that Cruz has God given abilities. He has some pop in his bat, speed and a strong arm.
Now, if someone can get in his head, I’ll look at him differently
The jogging out ground balls to 1st
The lack of field awareness and knowledge of the game
The lack of fielding fundamentals
His oft-pathetic white flag waving swings when he’s overmatched at bat
He has talent, but he needs someone to give it to him straight. Ability is nice. Focus, effort, hustle and putting in the hard work to improve and learn the game —intangibles I’m not sure Cruz is willing to entertain
Management treats Cruz in the same manner that he feels he deserves
like a prima donna so it’s not surprising that he lacks hustle out of the box or forgets how many outs there are when he gets picked off of base or when he double pumps the ball before making an errant throw
Above all else, the manager never scolds, punishes or even verbally disciplines his spoiled child player
Pirates offense has sputtered for a couple of seasons now, in theory there’s nowhere to go but up now
the Pirates offense has struggled in every year with Haines as hitting coach
As a team; they never batted above .237
Broke franchise records twice in strikeouts
were in the bottom third in runs scored
Haines should have never been hired in the first place and since he was, he should have been fired after last season
I just hope Jerry Dipoto doesn’t hire him.
I just hope that the Bucs don’t bring on a worse hitting coach than Haines
Would it really matter even if it was hypothetically possible?
A hitting coach that cannot do his job? I sense the White Sox will pick him up for their ‘playoff push’ next season \sarcasm
Idk about that, pnc and the nl central is a hitters division
It’s a start. A very good start. Haines wasn’t the whole problem but he definitely want part of the solution.
It’s probably also the finish. If you were going to fire Cherington you would have done it before the hitting coach you would think. And Cherington fully expected Shelton to be back so Cherington isn’t firing him. Very sad news for Pirates fans.
I might be mistaken but wasn’t Hurdle fired before Huntington, Dream?
Hurdle yes but wasn’t the hitting coach.
And that’s why I said you would think. Because Nutting is a joke. He fired the manager even though the gm didn’t want to. Gm not happy. Fans were vocal that Huntington needed to go so what a month or something later he fired Huntington and the president as well because that idiot said if Huntington goes so do I.
To announce these minor coaches says Shelton and Cherington are coming back but always the chance Nutting could flip flop his decision.
my point was that Hurdle was fired before Huntington who did eventually also lose his job and just maybe Nutting still isn’t satisfied with the direction of the team with Ben in place
one can always hope
I got your point. That’s why I left a crack open in the door. Any other team I wouldn’t.
Williams. Cherington. Shelton. The entire player personnel department. All of them should go. But you still have Nutting, a guy who just won’t spend money
So what will change here, really?
didn’t Williams work in the PR department for the Pittsburgh Penguins before being hired by the Pirates?
Something with penguins. Believe he left them for a job with NHL or something with NY but Nutting snatched him up. Don’t know Don’t care but he had worked for penguins for sure.
Travis Williams, the Pirates current President, worked previously for the Penguins as CEO and for the NY Islanders as their CEO
In both hockey positions, Williams responsibilities, amongst others was to promote those respective teams to the public in order to increase attendance
Basically s PR guy
While he’s the Pirates President, he admits that all baseball decisions fall under the responsibility of Ben Cherington
Williams is responsible for the new uniform worn this year by the Bucs players, he handles the home game promotions and promoting ticket sales
His role as President differs from that of former President Frank Connelly who was the President for 12 years
That’s the information I gathered from researching his biography
apparently he hasn’t done anything to improve the team but is more of a promoter to put money into Nutting’s pockets than the anything else
Only thing he has done was get rid of the charity auction that you enjoyed. Attendance is still near bottom of baseball. It’s pretty much impossible to fall below the Florida teams and Oakland is leaving Oakland.
Seems to me the only thing I remember of the 1 year Haines was the hitting coach of the Cubs was that they sucked. So good job!
F- The manager and gm thought this guy was great. Should have been fired at least a year ago. Really though should have never been hired. Milwaukee got rid of him for a reason. Cherington thinks Shelton is great. Anyone see the August collapse? Shelton should have been fired. Firing the hitting coach while keeping the awful manager and gm isn’t going to accomplish much. They have no idea what they are doing. Will likely just hire Haines 2.0. Keep going to games and paying your cable bill. Mr Nutting appreciates you watching this clown show.
Bart hit immediately as soon as he arrived. If Haines was so good he fixed players that fast well he wouldn’t be getting fired all the time.
Rowdy Tellez made a huge impact.. after he gave up on Haines and reached out to his childhood coach for hitting help.
last year, Cruz hired a personal hitting coach, Hayes received hitting instruction from the then hitting coach at Pirates AAA affiliate Indy and Rowdy used his childhood coach to improve his swing says more about the failures of Haines than it does about these players
The writing should have been on the wall last season with Cruz and Hayes but Cherington remained supportive of Haines
It says something else about Cherington when Cruz was told that he couldn’t bring his personal coach to PNC Park anymore and the Indy HC was fired after last season
And Gonzales built his own hitting facility and taught himself to hit. And Davis went to driveline and they taught him how to catch.
Yet coaches are just now fired. Whu this team is and has been the joke of mlb for 30 some years.
I can’t argue with you Dream, especially with your assertion that this franchise has been a joke of MLB for 30 years
it’s almost as if the coaches are employed in name only and to fill a position but not a legitimate role
Bart hit immediately because he was given a chance to play every day.
Reynolds changed his stance in the batter’s box during the season and improved. Haines had him bending his knees but when Reynolds lifted his knees up further he was making more contact
Bart hit better than his stats with Giants. They definitely didn’t play him enough. New opportunities can matter though. He came in extremely positive from day 1. Definitely wasn’t Haines though or he wouldn’t be fired.
Any Pirates fans think Haines is good and shouldn’t have been fired? Did any of you just realize he needed fired now? I would bet everyone thought he should have been fired long long before Shelton Cherington realized. But don’t worry. I am sure these imbeciles will hire a fantastic new hitting coach.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they just promoted the assistant hitting coach to take Haines’ place which would be in essence, Haines 2.0
This is a huge step in the right direction. Keep going Bucs, don’t stop there! There’s time, but still got work to do.
5 hitters last year had a wRC+ of 95 or greater in 2023 with MAT, Joe, Suwinski, Triolo, and Edward Olivares. Taylor had the lowest at 96, and Triolo at the highest at 118. They all saw a drop of over 10 points in wRC+ and none reached double-digit home runs after all but Triolo hit at least 11 last year. Every team is going to have a player or two fall off, but when 5 guys that were supposed to be key parts of the line-up go from league average or better hitters one year to well below average the next (some of which were unplayable and got demoted), you gotta make a change.
From everything I read, Haines changed Suwinski’s approach to the plate to make him a contact hitter and then saw his power numbers drop as well as his average
Suwinski is a power hitter and with his former swing had a pretty good season in 23
He was a huge failure in 24 after Haines adjusted his approach to the plate
Suwinski was a disciple of Haines. He had a long leash because of it. Both are to blame for his inability to be a big league hitter
something happened between 2023 and 2024 when Jack went from hitting 26 homers, driving in 72 runs and batting .223 to 2024 and his 9 homers and a .151 batting average and from everything I read, the difference was Haines trying to make Jack a more consistent contact hitter and less of a power hitter in 2024
now maybe Jack was a disciple of Haines’ influence but why would any coach want to take power away from a power hitter?
In 48 games with Indy, Jack hit 9 homers which over the course of 154 minor league games, is almost 29 homers and he did better there due the Indians own hitting coach
Haines and Shelton could be considered baseballs version of home wreckers…hitter wreckers.
I’m hoping that suwinski reclaims his power. Moving Reynolds to first base and Jack in left. If he can reclaim his power…some of the pirates impotent offense will be resolved.
Only bad thing coming out of Haines firing, is that the Moron is coming back
You’re on fire The Man. I don’t usually agree with your rants but you’re spot on today. I’ve liked just about every one of your comments.
Will 2nd that. My favorite poster because I usually disagree with him and just tee up on his softball. Very strong performance today so far.
Paul is on a roll.
Finally. Having no hitting coach would have been equally effective.
‘It’s difficult to judge their work by results alone’. Not with Haines. This guy has lead trash hitting results wherever he has gone. As a lifelong brewers fan I don’t think I was ever more excited that a positional coach was canned than him. It’s all about the approach, not necessarily the results. If you want your players to regress to low career norms in droves hire Haines as your hitting coach. Dude is absolutely terrible at that job. After 3 utter failures hopefully his time negatively impacting young players is over.
These writers must be morons to suggest that the you can’t judge their work by results alone.
How else do you render your opinion if not on the results that your instructions have provided?
As a team the hitters were near the bottom of every offensive category
SMH
Yes man3 I agree with you on the writers. I said that in an earlier post. Seems they are as incompetent as the SO CALLED sports talk show hosts on the 93.7. They are more like sports talk jock straps. I completely refuse to listen to these idiots. And MLB trade rumors wants us to pay the writers. Nada until they write fact and not fiction.
What would you call someone paying $29.89 to get even more articles from these writers?
Someone who appreciates the site. Someone who appreciates the effort. I could freeload here, sure, that’s true. I could carp about some of the views that writers put forward. But to me, it’s a small price to maintain the place
It’s a joke. Calling them a name but paying for more articles from them and private chats with them. I get it that’s not the main reason he is paying for.
You lost me here, Dream. He doesn’t have his little badge thing. I’ll admit that his latest critiques have been a bit unhinged, for sure
Paul said it first and has badge.
I pay for subscriptions to several different media outlets, this one included and for several reasons, not all the same
Newspapers don’t see the concrete on my front porch or yard so it’s incumbent upon me to subscribe to media outlets that I trust will provide me the most reliable news of any given day
Journalism isn’t free and good journalists don’t work for free either, though writing or publishing a baseball article can’t be considered journalism either. Not in the sense that I view what journalism is but still someone has to pay for the services this site offers and I am happy to contribute to that
by the way, yesterday I found a buyer for my 2012 Mustang GT convertible. Having only driven it 1100 miles over 3 years, I felt it was time to find someone who would enjoy it more than me.
I bought it with an odometer reading at 10,400 miles, and in mint condition, 3 years ago
Tuesday of next week it will be shipped to its new owner
After calling for Haines to be fired all year, this is now portrayed as “Shelton trying to save his job”
And so what if it is? You can’t even please these people when you do what they demand.
It’s like Matt Canada all over again. They finally fire the guy, only to call for Arthur Smith’s head two games into the preseason.
who exactly is portraying this, Njbirdsfan? Certainly not me. I welcome this decision but it’s clearly not enough
Ben and Derek shouldn’t be permitted to keep their jobs either
Haines was bad, but a hitting coach isn’t fixing the offense. This is a make or break offseason for Bucs and Nutting better rubber stamp a decent contract or a generation of fans will be lost
This franchise is toast. Sure they might have a few winning seasons even make the playoffs if everything goes right but that’s all it will ever be. Long long long rebuilds with a lil tiny window here and there. I suggest all pirates fans find another team unless you enjoy losers.
If you are going to have a bottom 5 payroll and spoiler alert Nutting and the Pirates are. You need to have a top 5 gm and manager. Is there anyone on the planet who thinks Cherington and Shelton are that? Not even their families do.
Cherington and Shelton are what they are but the problem is and always will be Nutting as long as he owns the team.
They have 3 twenty homer guys is Reynolds, Cruz and De la Cruz. I’m not counting on Cutch doing it again
They have guys like Gonzales and IKF who can set the table and maybe kids like Peguero who can do the same.
They have Bart who may hit 20 homers
We don’t know what Endy is yet
Yeah, there is some deadwood like Hayes here. Back problem or not, he’ll never be an offensive weapon. Triolo is just a glove.
Point is, with the starting pitching they have, they need a hitting coach like what the Braves and Phillies have first and foremost. Teach fundamentals. Teach approach. Refine mechanics. Cut down strikeouts.
And if they want to contend, they need a Walker type at 1st. A guy who’ll drive in runs and change pitcher perceptions about how to proceed
But it’ll cost money for both and even though the team has the elements, Nutting will never pay the price
Wouldn’t take much to have this team contending. A new manager who demands hustle would be nice but beyond that, just spend the money. Nutting is a profits guy first. It’s never been about a winning team to him
If anything, Nutting should hold Cherington accountable for signing Hayes to the contract that this team will never find justification for?
Back injuries, without surgery, are chronic and don’t heal from any amount of rest
Hayes’ back woes will always be problematic for this team
As will his head woes, my friend
it’s a problem keeping sunflower seeds from Hayes’ pocket when he’s on the field as well
I’m in complete agreement, OldDude, unfortunately the only way fundamentals can be taught is if Shelton allows them to be applied
Watching Shelton’s reaction in the dugout when the current players failed the basic offensive fundamentals always made me wonder how he justifies having his position as manager.
Shelton shares responsibility for the failures of the offense as much as Haines
Nutting 100 percent now. It’s obvious to the most casual observer with the most average of average intelligence that new management is needed. I will be cheering on Shelton and Cherington until they are fired. Excellent work guys. Keep collecting those pay checks. No one to blame but Nutting. They might actually win. It’s hard not too with that starting pitching. Only they could finish as bad as they did this year.
When you come to realize what a shell game an owner like Nutting is playing with fans, you’ll understand how grotesque this all is from a purely baseball perspective
Nutting isn’t the only greed driven owner in sports, it’s just that MLB has insulated him from true critique thanks to its closed books policies. It’s allowed him to play on the small market/limited funds mantra when really, neither are pertinent or true. In fact, any owner of any team could put a winner out on the ball field given MLB’s revenue streams structure if he wanted to
Again, in the immediate future just add super streaming services like what ESPN will be pushing along with the kickbacks of sports books. Then get back to us about limited profits
You and Mendoza can relate limited salary ceilings as compared with other “small market” teams but all you’re doing in effect is spouting the company line. It’s all a facade. All a shell game.
Today the Pirates fired their hitting coach and made their bullpen coach a sacrificial lamb. It’s likely all they’ll do where management is concerned. All to have some true believer types say, “See? They’re addressing their problems”
Are people really this stupid?
Go read what the brewers owner said. And if you don’t get it read what I said. It’s all owners pretty much.
No idea what you’re referring to or what you said, in general
Team ownership is like a la cosa nostra for billionaires. It’s not only a continual windfall of riches but it’s also secretive.
If you wish to believe the propaganda, that’s on you.
Brewers owner said that even though attendance went up they didn’t make anymore $ because they put more into revenue sharing so they received less revenue sharing. Excuse to why payroll won’t be increasing. Mkbtr has entire article on it.
Complete lie though. Teams only put like 40 percent or half of their revenue into the total pool. So the other have of the increased revenue the Brewers keep for themselves. So they made more $ this year. They think fans are stupid and maybe they do fall for these lies. Maybe they are stupid.
Paul- Those uniforms are absolutely awful.
The Yankees have it right.
If it ain’t broke,don’t fix it.
Maybe the Pirates should try harder to have a winning team.
That would be the best promotion.
They need a baseball person over Cherington not a cheerleader.
Old Dude-Evidently some are.
I cannot speak for Dream GM But I can speak for Mendoza.
I just a couple of days ago spelled out in detail how much Nutting makes a year. $45M which is 3-4% of the current value.He also makes that much in appreciation every year.Cuban would not touch it,but said it is a windfall!
You were asked by me how much more of this profit you would spend.You refrained when put on the spot.
You think that he makes over $200M per year based on your erroneous take of their numbers.I used the same source using 2022 data.
You can believe all of the crap that you want to but some of us have lived and continue to live in the real world.Nutting did not ask for the small market life he has realized but it is very real.Get over it.
He spent the annual profits during the aftermath of the peak years during 2015-2017..He will do it again if they ever have a good team again because he proved that he would once.
Nutting to his credit has solidified Pittsburgh retaining a MLB team which the previous two ownerships never did.He,Huntington,and Hurdle provided three years of thrills as the second best record team in all of baseball.
I am not a particular fan of his especially if he retains Shelton and or Cherington.
But as a typical Yinzer you clearly do not understand the economics of baseball and unfortunately as a Yunzer you never will.
Let me work backwards in replying to what seems to be an insulting set of ideas, all thrown into one missive
1). Just what does it mean to be “a typical yinzer?” Please explain. Shall we compare degrees? Socioeconomic status? Accolades? Work background? Are you just outing yourself as some sort of elitist where Pittsburghers are concerned? Apparently so, given your last line about “Yunzers(sic)”
How novel of you to denigrate Pittsburghers on a thread about the Pirates
2) Are you really expecting Pirates fans to take solace in three years of competitive baseball under Hurdle while the rest have been abysmal? While Nutting hasn’t been here for the entire 30 year trainwreck, it’s almost unbelievable that this is your thinking.
3) I am unsure as to what response you were looking for in your queries. I regarded them as rhetorical, like pondering what I would do if I hit the Powerball. If you equated my reluctance to responding to your drivel as being evasive, you were mistaken.
You ran some numbers. Congratulations in thinking that they are “real world” but in true reality, they are as mythical as anyone else’s
A ridiculous, insulting post. I wouldn’t have expected such a reprehensible, degrading tone on a baseball site and in defense of an owner who likely laughs all the way to the bank
Mendoza coming in hot.
Twins − $124,077,590
Royals − $115,257,261
Reds − $106,441,547
Brewers − $105,833,094
Tigers − $103,834,833
Rays − $101,023,112
Marlins − $97,227,400
Orioles − $94,520,400
Guardians − $93,333,629
Pirates − $85,760,000
Athletics − $60,503,298
There’s all your small market teams excluding the mid market twins and tigers. When they start spending 200 and Nutting is at 100 still I will get on board with him pocketing the $. Most those teams have made much more playoff revenue the last 30 years and or much better attendance. Not that 10 or 20 million more was suddenly going to make the Pirates a playoff team this year.
I don’t think some fans expect 200 million but 120 130. Even though the Pirates make less $ they expect them to outspend the other small markets for some reason. When even matching them isn’t reasonable to expect.
You’ve provided the expense numbers. Great
Just wonderful
Can you provide the revenue numbers for each of those teams, as well? And can you be sure they’re accurate?
You’ve laughed off the reports that have come from the PG ‘s investigative report and similar exposes from publications like Forbes as to the revenue in 2023. You can google the question and get myriad responses that confirm those numbers. Instead, you and others would rather use the “fake news” tag. How intelligent.
Until you can see the entire ledger, your premise is conjecture, nothing more
Let me say it again in hopes of avoiding more prepubescent, condescending rants: I don’t know of any fan that thinks the Pirates should or can go after Soto-like free agent signings. I don’t even know of many fans who believe ownership is pocketing tens of millions in profits
All I continue to say is the “small market/limited finances” explanation is misleading, at very best. I simply believe that they can do much better in terms of signings than they have in the past few years. That’s all.
Wish I could say I am sorry that questioning the company line causes hysterical irritation because it conflicts with one’s comfort zone
Apparently they don’t know the difference between expenses and income so it is laughable. I didn’t provide expenses. Only payroll. Expenses would be much much higher. Of course they could spend more $. That would require taking less profit. They obviously aren’t interested in less profit.
Yinzers are Pittsburghers who constantly complain.It doesn’t matter their background.
You do not back anything up with facts.
You just want to hate because you can.
I am not sticking up for Nutting.I have made a concerted effort to put facts together.It took a lot of time to do so.You clearly do not appreciate that and continue to hate.
You choose to ignore the facts.You choose not to react with anything regarding facts.Not even “drivel.”
Nutting is not a good owner because he apparently knows so little about baseball and managing people that he does not apparently want to do anything to assuage the long suffering of Pirate fans and do what every reasonable poster here knows even at a minimum that he should.
But your baseless taunts of two posters who give you facts tell me that you just want to complain.
Go to it.
More childishness
First off, I don’t hate anyone involved in professional sports. I don’t “like” anyone either. Maybe back when the Steelers and Raiders had their rivalry in the 70’s. Maybe when pro athletes actually lived here. Maybe when athletics weren’t ruined by money. Pity that you equate critique with hate. Nutting may be the nicest man in the world, a tremendous husband and father. It’s not pertinent to the discussion. And never once have I made a comment about the man personally, or anyone involved in pro sports.
You have not supplied “facts” but rather, tidbits mixed with assumptions. As stated to Dream, with MLB’s closed books policy where TV revenue is concerned, there are no facts. Just assumptions. You provided what you believed were logical ideas about profit margins. But since I didn’t lend them credence, you have decided to take it personally and instead conduct a character assassination filled with mischaracterizations and mistruths. Please remind me of who I taunted and how. I’ve taken issue with one individual here who shows up every so often and seems to do so to just troll regulars. His thought was the laughable, “I know for a fact Nutting reinvests every penny he makes back in the franchise.”
Is this one of the people I’m taunting? Or is it “bright eyes,” whom Dream taunts daily ? Please explain.
It’s certainly not Dream. It’s certainly not you
Lastly, it’s unfortunate you’ve backtracked from portraying Pittsburghers as “yinzers” who apparently have little intelligence into a group of people who just constantly complain. Nothing could be further from the truth. Pittsburgh fans know baseball, or football, or hockey. They’re just tired of something between mediocrity and annually losing. I’d wonder if fans in your neck of the woods would take kindly to being told they should be happy because they had three winning seasons in the last thirty, highlighted by a playoff run 10–12 years ago
I haven’t taunted anyone. And these kinds of postings, “Mendoza”, are normally something one might find on a high schooler’s social media feed. Reprehensible. Outrageous.
at the end of season press conference at PNC Park today, Cherington said that yes (barfing), Shelton is returning next season and has the support of Williams and Nutting
In addition, they aren’t likely to be signing any free agents and instead use the trade market to improve the team
I am presuming that the current payroll was either too high for the penny pinching owner or because of the failure of the free agents Ben signed for this season didn’t produce a competitive team that the free agent concept wasn’t profitable enough for Nutting
Look at the Royals and Tigers in comparison to the Pirates. How wonderful both advanced to the ALDS.
The Tigers have done it with a very good manager in charge largely of young guys that the Tigers developed themselves.
The Royals are almost in that same vein but the rebuild was a bit incomplete. They spent big on pitchers, namely Lugo, Wacha and Lorenzen. Again, a lot of young players that needed some signings to complete the process
Two smaller markets.
This has been the point since the beginning. If your rebuild didn’t quite come out as planned, then augment it to get the process where you want it. Verlander and Scherzer aren’t pitching for KC. They didn’t break the bank to bring these guys in. But there aren’t any Tellez or Taylor-level types, either
Why is this “complaint” so difficult to understand?
What is outrageous is you saying two normally intelligent posters are spouting the company line as if we are puppets of Bob Nutting just because you disagree with facts put together to show approximately what the real world is like.
You can have any opinion that you like,but when people take the time to put together rationale discussion points you are deprecating their work and belittling them just because you can.
I gave you my definition of Yinzers( sic).Others May have other ones.Don’t read into anything that I write.I think that I am pretty clear.
Nutting was here for half the 32 years.It is pitiful that this team has only had four winning seasons in that period.He saved this team in Pittsburgh though and you give him zero credit for that.
His problem is not spending money,it is hiring employees who think outside the box and can compete like other small market teams do.And being too slow to get rid of them.
I am amazed that he does not know more about baseball than he evidently does,and does not have the necessary courtesy to the fans to learn.
I have not made any character assassinations here.I take offense when others do it to me.
Dream GM- Actually the Pirates averaged $97 M over three years in the late teens so that is around $120 M today with the gross inflation over the last four years.
If they actually had a good team I think it fair for the fans to expect him to do that again.
Once again, you’re all over the road
And again, you may notice that Dream “belittles” me. I “belittle” him. I’ve never taken offense at his style. To me, it’s words on a page and the discussion of baseball, nothing more. How I “belittled” you is anyone’s guess and I would hope you’d take your own advice and not read into things. “Spouting the company line” did not denote that you or he were puppets of the owner but rather, simply repeating the standard explanation that not even journalists in this town are buying into anymore
I’ve belittled no one but rather, repaid Dream’s style of response. Why you’ve taken it to heart is a mystery
You say that Nutting saved baseball in this town. I’d disagree and say that local leadership and taxpayers saved it by paying for the nicest stadium in MLB. The ballpark itself has been the drawing card during consistent losing. Nutting *did* have a run at inspiring imaginations of baseball fans by hiring a GM who rebuilt the farm and was on point enough to bring in a number of guys who helped the playoff runs of over a decade ago
Saying that the owner is willing to spend the money but has been foiled by placing faith in front office types who’ve failed him is a stretch, isn’t it? We’ll never know the restraints Cherington works under, or whether they’re on par with other comparable teams, or if he has even less to work with. Lately, the GM has decided to fall on his sword and blame himself, but who knows?
Lastly, I’ll let you review your own words about “yinzers” and our apparent inability to understand economics.
All of this was undeserved. It’s a message board. It’s opinion and nothing more. And it’s entertainment, not life. I may not agree with some thinking presented but I also find I often learn a great deal. It’s a shame you’ve gleaned being ‘ belittled’ or ‘taunted’ or ‘deprecated’ via discussion of a millionaire’s game and often time, simply in response to Dream and his Hall of Fame style of responding.
I’ll refrain from replying to your posts in the future
Not really.I was cogent unlike you.
Nutting made $45M in 2021,$51M in 2022,and $68M in 2023.
Using 1996 numbers from McClatchy the Pirates have appreciated 10% per year and averaged $44 M per year increase in value.
Nutting is in it for the long term.
McClatchy did get the stadium built but had to sell Ramirez at pennies on the dollar.He was running out of money.
The last two years have shown a substantial increase in value and more operating income.
I am not sticking up for Nutting.I am showing the facts.He has gotten a sweet deal in the average 10% return per year.But when you cite $309 M in revenue and $68M in “expenses” instead of operating income,and it fits your agenda,it tells me that you are believing gibberish.
Whether you believe he is making an absurd amount per year is your business.He is evidently drawing no salary which for a CEO of a company this big is probably $20 M.
I suggest that you check your facts though before you say others are spouting the company line.
Old Dude- Not sure if this is to me but I will briefly reply.
Detroit has a larger market,Kansas City a smaller one.
Yes,it is a feel good story,and good for their fans.
Kansas City is the only one of the small market teams to win a WS since 1991.
They have both been awful or bad for longer than the Pirates.
I never said that you do not have a right to complain.I have said that Haines and Shelton should have been fired two years ago.Then I came to realize that Nutting does not read MLBTR.
Nutting is making a standard annual return if you compare it to stocks and dividends.The last year or two have risen from 4 to 5% now.
I question whether this team is worth $1.324 B.But if it anywhere near there you are right,his appreciation has been phenomenal.
If they do not spend on free agents even more than last year,then I will complain even louder than you.I think that they have a good enough team that augmentation will improve it.
But if Nutting continues to do nothing to improve this team,as we all have said should happen,then I am done with them.
They would not be worth my time.
Can’t spend much more. Around 100 seems to be the ceiling. Attendance didn’t increase enough. Bringing back the same awful management won’t inspire people to show up. Hilarious this is the 2nd time he has failed to see it. Nutting is a idiot. All he has to do is read my comments and he would make so much more $. Would win more games as well but we know he doesn’t care about that. Would take a major signing or trade to increase optimism. Or firing Cherington which isn’t happening.
I predict no matter what they do at least 1.5m will attend games probably 1.6 1.7 1.8 and just about everyone will keep paying their cable or streaming bill. Nutting knows you are all suckers and losers with nothing else to do.
I don’t watch Pirate games because I have nothing else to do, I watch them because I am and always will be a fan
Your condescending attitude to those you feel are below your standards is sickening, Dream.
You’re better than that so I ask for what reason do you continue this holier than thou charade?
It’s fine you can’t detect humor sarcasm. No I won’t label it as such just so you can know. Just keep getting offended. I don’t care. It’s fine you watch them. But you get the product you deserve. Why put out a better product when your Pauls of the world just keep eating up the garbage you put out.
That’s how Nutting See’s you. 1.5m show up no matter what garbage is on the field. They keep paying their cable bill every year. Then wonder why he doesn’t fire people or spend more $. He’s literally flying above you pointing and laughing saying suckers and losers. I believe Nutting is more likely to say that even more so than the other guy who allegedly said it.
s/ after a comment indicates sarcasm
so you have to double down on your comment to prove what exactly?
sarcasm again?
Wouldn’t expect you to get it.
there’s that condescending tone again, but I have come to expect that from you, Dream
GM Ben Cherington Takes Blame for Pirates’ Collapse
Right there it is Mr Nutting. Cherington says he is the problem. But sure a new hitting coach is magically going to help a team of scrubs, failed prospects, and dumpster dives. Better destroy the farm system and play for your lil window. Will you fire your awful gm after that or let him rebuild again with maybe the worst player development in baseball. What’s Cherington have to do to get fired?
I beg to differ on Nick Gonzales not being a difference maker. His OPS could use an increase in the slugging department but he hit for average, played solid defense, and was decidedly clutch. He had 49 RBI in 94 games and had a 1.25 clutch score according to FanGraphs. Which was 16th among every player with at least 350 at bats.
Gonzalez, like everyone else on this team needs to start taking pitches outside of the zone instead of being a free swinger
17 walks vs 70 strikeouts
Agreed – also drastically cut down on strikeouts
I agree with you kozy..I said just what you said in an earlier post. These so called writers must be in middle school. They need to do their research before printing their dribble.
“His OPS could use an increase in the slugging department but he hit for average, played solid defense, and was decidedly clutch.”
Sorry but that’s not a difference maker. It’s just a guy. You accept a guy. All teams have a few on bench. Most teams have a few as starters. Ideally Hayes back magically gets better. Peguero gets no pirates coaching and learns to hit and TJ comes somewhat close to his ceiling. Gonzales becomes a super utility player for you instead of starter.
About to text my Buc buddy Kash Considerations, he’s sleeping on this post!
What’s good #2! Not sleeping, just partying like a champ over Haines’ dismissal! I hit u on ig holla holla
All good 10er! Cool
Plenty of problems to fix! 3rd, 1st, bullpen that’s why we need big shakeup somehow!Trades!!
What exactly does a bullpen coach do?
For the most part, these teams now days have their 7th inning, 8th inning and closers known and are afraid to deviate.
I don’t know how many games I’ve watched where the announcers say “It doesn’t look like Joe Blow has his cutter today”
Didn’t the “bullpen coach” notice that when he was warming up?
Why didn’t he call the manager and say “Joe doesn’t have it today, try someone else.”
Boggles my mind
Ring ring… Hello
If this is all to be done it is all on Nutting.
Anyone who has run a business knows that when employees clearly fail they need to be fired.
At the very least Shelton needs to go as he was awful at making pitching changes and hustle and good fundamentals were lacking in several players.
If Cherington balks he should be fired too.
They are losing precious time to get a good replacement for Shelton.
This is all on Nutting.
Every owner is a Bob Nutting pretty much. They all think you are stupid. Actually they may be right but it’s not right they treat you that way even if you can’t realize it.
“The way that the revenue sharing model works, everybody puts their money in the pot and then it gets recalibrated. The more money you make on a comparative basis, the less revenue sharing you get.”
“While the club’s strong performance this year has led to increased ticket revenue and strong TV ratings, the owner suggested that it may end up a wash with the club receiving less revenue sharing.”
Total lie. If attendance didn’t matter do you think Bob Nutting would give extensions? Advertise? Have fireworks and bobbleheads? He is very much interested in attendance. Just look at attendance and payroll. The highest years for both are the same time period.
Attendance was too high, we can’t spend more because of it. I love these guys.
Most owners want to make money.Some don’t care. Some just want to win.That is why you see owners like Middleton and Cohen who have so much money they can spend it on more and more millions of dollars for players.
Those are the owners that fans love.
But it drives up the costs for everyone else including the fans.
I bailed out in the 1980’s when the ticket costs started going higher and higher.Now I have enough money but I refuse to pay for a substandard product.
speaking of spending more on players, arbitration predictions have Bednar making over $6 million in 2025 and DLC making $4 million dollars
I wonder if they will try trading Bednar because Nutting’s fetish for being a scrooge
Paul-That is the problem with these figures and the arbitration process
He is making about $4.1 M this year.
Does he deserve a raise?
I have no problem with $6.6 M as he is a closer but only if he had similar results as previous years.
My first response was that they may not tender him or try to trade him.