The Pirates provided an ominous update on one of their most promising young players Wednesday, when manager Derek Shelton announced that righty Jared Jones would have his next start skipped due to elbow discomfort (link via Noah Hiles of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). Jones first experienced discomfort during his most recent bullpen session earlier this week. The team has already had imaging performed and is seeking a second opinion before proceeding with a firm diagnosis and recovery timetable, per director of sports medicine Todd Tomcyzk.
The obvious hope will be for a minor issue that sees the talented 23-year-old return to the mound in short order. Any talk of a pitcher skipping a start due to elbow trouble without a firm diagnosis will naturally create concern, however, especially for someone whose future is as bright as that of Jones.
The 44th overall pick back in 2020, Jones pitched his way into top prospect status as he climbed the minor league ladder and broke camp in the Pirates’ rotation last year. He came roaring out of the gates, too, pitching to a 2.63 ERA with elite strikeout and walk rates through his first seven starts. He hit a rough patch beginning at the end of May and by early July was on the injured list due to a lat strain that would sideline him for about six weeks.
At the time of the injury, Jones had pitched 91 innings of 3.66 ERA ball with a strong 26.4% strikeout rate and 7.3% walk rate. He was averaging 97.3 mph on his heater, inducing swinging strikes at a huge 15.4% clip, and generally looked the part of a mid-rotation starter at the very least — with the stuff and bat-missing ability to produce like a front-of-the-rotation arm. His velocity held when he returned from that lat injury, but his location wasn’t as sharp; Jones walked 9% of his hitters, induced far fewer swings off the plate and gave up far more contact within the strike zone. He finished out the season with a 4.14 ERA in 121 1/3 innings — a solid showing with plenty of hint for further upside.
Jones has looked sharp this spring. He’s pitched 12 innings and held opponents to three runs on eight hits and six walks with 17 punchouts. Again, that command isn’t as sharp as it was pre-injury in 2024, but he’s missing bats and hasn’t experienced any drop-off in the quality and power of his arsenal.
If Jones is shelved to begin the season, the Pirates would run with a rotation including Paul Skenes, Mitch Keller, Andrew Heaney and Bailey Falter. Options for the final spot in the rotation would include prospects Bubba Chandler, Thomas Harrington, Braxton Ashcraft and Mike Burrows. The former two are still in camp but not yet on the 40-man roster. The latter pair is on the 40-man roster, but both have already been optioned. Of course, with Jones ailing, either could be summoned to the majors to replace him.
Jones accrued a full year of big league service time in 2024. He’s still controllable through the 2029 season and isn’t slated to reach arbitration until the 2026-27 offseason.
Pitchers need to change their throwing motion and stop thos spin rate. Its killing them.
So would throwing balls straight
I believe it’s also the max effort mentality. Back in the day before TJ started becoming almost routine, it was common for starters to “reach back for something extra” during high stress times. But now they don’t have anything to reach for, as they are already expending all they have on every pitch. Meanwhile, pitch counts and innings limits are obviously not the answer. Since that started, pitcher injuries have only gone up! Something has to change, and it has to start at the youth levels. Whatever happened to youngsters not throwing breaking pitches until they were 16? Or hell, 14. Now they do so at 12 and even younger.
I’m sure that not everyone is expending all they have on every pitch. How would we even know this? They’re throwing harder than ever but that’s to be expected as people get bigger and stronger through the years.
Fact: Throwing a baseball 95 plus MPH for 100 pitches every 5 days is BAD for the ligaments in your elbow. Fact: Doesn’t really matter how you do it, Eventually it will tear. Fact: It’s gonna hurt and have to be repaired surgically. . Fact: It stinks.
As coaches, what we saw in the later 80’s to mid 90’s was this paradigm shift that balanced control and speed in unison to just heat
Training sessions became more about generating more speed than focusing on solid pitcher mechanics. Many saw this as a worthwhile trade-off, especially in an era of shorter starts and more specialized types of pitching. The idea became that control will come via simple repetition. Like magic.
You’re right. The human physique can only take so much stress before there’s a breakdown. And even as TJ surgeries became more commonplace, instructors, coaches and players themselves continue to see it as a worthwhile risk
No surprise, of course. Times change. Approaches change. Priorities change
Changes like this are happening in other sports, too
exactly,totally agree with you, coaches and analytics don’t care about your mechanics if you throw over 97 mph
Back when I was pitching millions of years ago, I would throw at least 200-300 pitches during practice. The end result? Three elbow surgeries, two shoulder surgeries, two wrist surgeries, and permanent numbness in my forearm and hands.
spin rate are killing young pitchers ,those analytics care more spin rate than command pitchers
Take a look at the photo for this article. It shows why he is injured.
This is a great article on the subject.
chrisoleary.com/pitching/epidemic/death-to-the-Inv…
My great uncle and I think smoltz have said it too. That pitcher arm issues in their opion is cause they are focused on one sport growing and the arm tendons are not as flexible as before along with too much muscle. Basically if they played multiple sports like soccer fb and basketball their arm would be worked out in diff motions. Just a thought
Kids start in Little League specializing. If they are good enough to be on a travel team, they don’t have time for any other sport because in the school and Little League offseason they are with their travel team. They will probably never play at another position in baseball unless they are one of the 5% of travel team players that both pitch and play a position in the field. .
First off, I’m not sure what Todd is alluding to when he talks about balancing out arm movement to counter injuries via other sports. I mean, could be I guess
But Pads, you opened up a can of worms when you mentioned “ travel ball”. On one hand, you’re right. The time demand makes playing multiple sports almost impossible.
But on the other, after 30+ years of coaching I’m amazed at what a cesspool “travel sports” has become. In crawling over each other to try to get their kids seen by “college coaches/scouts,” daddy and mommy coaches and parents in general pay little attention to mechanics and techniques anymore and don’t work as they should to refine fundamentals.
Please excuse my preaching.
It’s no surprise to me that some kids get hurt
It’s no surprise some parents pull their kids from even playing
I just loved that “if they are good enough to play travel ball” line. Look around long enough and be willing to pay the fees, every kid is “good enough. “
The vast majority of kids in travel ball are those that both have parents that have enough money to get them in a baseball academy and that were among the best athletes on their little league teams.
I’m sure you know, it’s really changed now
Part of it is because “travel ball” is a multi million dollar industry
But more than anything else, it’s parents pushing their kids for whatever reason. And coaching for all the wrong reasons
Travel ball is crazy competitive and so much money involved. In Fallbrook, the baseball academy up here has multiple trackman and rapsodo systems and most of the students are 10-15.
Sure, always was but the competition is a bit different now
I enjoyed instructing, building teams, watching the light bulb go on in kids. I’m not one for being on the road a lot but I enjoyed regional and national competition against talented teams
At the end of my career, I’d seen fundamentals going downhill. Travel teams weren’t necessarily all star teams anymore. And parents? There’s an ugliness in kid sports that detract from all the positives kids should experience.
But I’m sure you see this
Sorry to rant
In the past radar guns caused a lot of kids to hurt their arm.
How can you improve the Dbacks pitching without causing a lot of excitement?
and the arm tendons are not as flexible as before along with too much muscle.
=========================
I read this a long time ago. Your ability to grow muscle is much, much greater than your ability to grow tendons and ligaments.
Goose said that about House.
Rut roh.
Hopefully not the worse case.
don’t say a word. reds…..karma. reds rotation already best in division
Oh boy
Seeking second opinion never sounds good.
My thought exactly. It’s never like ‘oh first doc says he is fine but let’s get second opinion anyway.’
Better looking dude than skenes, at least he has that.
You prefer his complexion and nice hair?
Mostly his non-acned face. But props on skenes landing a 10 even though he has the personality of a rice cake and his looks aren’t model level to say the least.
Yeah so that’s what complexion means but yo esperanza tu son guapo porque tú personalidad está mierda
Espanol oprima ocho
Yo quiero Taco Bell
What the … is the matter with you!
I bet the mirror breaks when you look into it
Got players ranked by look, eh?
Poor guy. Poor Pirates. They just can’t have nice things…
or anything at all
Ohhhh fuuudddgfgggeee……. in my best Ralphie Parker voice…..
That’s not good………..
Hate to here! One of young guys step up or sign Lance Lynn.
It’s because I drafted him in fantasy.
get a delorean please
Good thing that they signed Heaney.
After watching him this spring, that’s a bit humorous
But nice that they gave away Ortiz for a broken down 1st baseman who can’t hit lefties.
Ben Cherington will never be named GM of the Year
TheMan 3
And Shelton will never make Manager of the Year
No Danny Murtaugh for sure
Or Bill Virdon, Chuck Tanner, or Jim Leyland.
Or even Clint Hurdle
How did he forget Clint?
Or John Russell or Lloyd McClendon
So you would keep Bubba up and possibly lose a year of him?
How about Harrington and have him get shelled and have him lose his confidence?Burrows and Ashcraft?
Or maybe get Ortiz back from Cleveland?
What would you do?
Mendoza, here’s what the Pirates have succeeded. In:
Getting me to stop caring.
I congratulate them and the wife is happy I’m no longer on the couch when the Pirates are on TV
It’s the worst run franchise in MLB with the worst ownership. They make moves that have less to do with baseball logic and more to do with fattening bank accounts.
No. Ortiz never should have been shipped ESPECIALLY with concerns about Oviedo’s progress and the ability of the kids to join the roster
But you continue to defend what amount to insane moves that lack foresight. It’s incredible.
leadertelegram.com/sports/mlb/joe-starkey-if-the-p…
I’m posting this for my friend Mendoza, and all fans who wish to keep carping about the state of Pirates finances
Third most profitable team in MLB
Their carpetbagging owner laughs all the way to the bank
You can rant all you want about Nutting and the Pirates.
I do not really care one way or another,it is up to you.
But signing Heaney as starting pitching insurance at a reasonable price and keeping the youngsters in AAA to not start their ML time clock is just smart baseball.
And it has absolutely nothing to do about sticking up for Nutting and Cherington.
I am sorry that you do not understand that.
I have them at 76 wins which tells you all about how I feel about the state of Pirates baseball.
I don’t think you’re “sticking up for” this regime but rather, think you offer explanations that are simply naive, that’s all
In his column, Starkey only puts forth a common sense approach. If the team is bleeding money, why doesn’t he sell? If it is as profitable as I and many fans think it is—and is now being reported—why shoukd any fan support his business when he wishes to provide an inferior product? To me, it’s a logical question but you will not get an answer from an owner who is not forthcoming and seems to have no regard for civic responsibility.
Your comment about the young guns reflects the Groundhogs Day methodology here. This will forever be the method of operation.
Lastly, the Heaney deal is not the point. They might as well have brought back Rich Hill. No, the point is again, a GM who is incredibly shortsighted. It’s not that Ortiz was a budding Cy Young candidate but he was a good pitcher down the stretch
How do you deal him for a questionable player? And how do you do it when you’re unsure about Oviedo’s recovery and the evolution of the young pitchers?
The off season here—especially in this particular conversation—defies all logic
Only in Pittsburgh
I stand by. 70-72
1 I do not believe much of what Kovacevac or Starkey writes as they are in the business to tantalize readers
2 I believe that Forbes is fairly accurate in their reported $ numbers especially comparing to the Braves public $ #’s
3 Nutting is a businessman first and foremost
4 he knows very little about the sport of baseball nor the management personnel in it
5 he knows enough about small market teams that their only chance to compete is to develop young players internally
6 his biggest fault is that he did not punt on Shelton and maybe Cherington before now because they have been incapable of providing a winning team after five full years
7 he makes plenty of money every year but it is no more % than many of us make in the stock market
8 his investment was for the long term and he has prospered exceedingly much more than anyone but wealthy people can do
9 he easily could have spent $100 M this year but Cherington needs to select specific players who can help the team to actually win and sometimes they are not easily found or do not want to play in Pittsburgh
10 small market teams cannot afford superstars anymore unless they are developed internally
11 I can assure you that I am not naive but look at things realistically based upon the above mentioned criteria
Let me go in backward order here. Please know I appreciate your thoughts above all else
Re 10: I don’t know of any fan who would carp for a superstar signing attempt. This past offseason there were numerous “middling” players who would have greatly aided this lackluster offense. But they went bargain basement. Again
Re 9: See above. No one was asking him to spend $100m. Why are we pigeonholing critique into extremes?
Re 8: Of course he’s profited greatly. It’s akin to buying a company like GM and then rebranding the company to sell Kia’s under the same name and at the same price
Re 6: Agreed. But again, we don’t know of the guardrails either must abide by. I think both are abject failures to be sure. But neither you or I know what parameters are given
Re 5: To his credit, Cherington restocked the farm. His player development program and scouting have been failures. Even so, there must be some foresight in the acknowledgement that sometimes, rebuilds aren’t complete without augmentation. BAL, MIL, CLE and KC are good examples of small market teams that understood and made affordable additions. Is it just stubbornness that precluded the Pirates from doing the same or is just the obsession with profit above competitiveness?
Re 3 and 4: Yes, as Dream has stated, he’s a Hall of Fame variety businessman. Without feeling any civic responsibility for conducting business in a taxpayer funded palace that for many, is THE reason to attend a game, not the product on the field
Re 2: It’s ironic you’ll cite Forbes here but discount an investigative report that lists the Pirates as the 3rd most profitable franchise in MLB. And it’s fascinating in that MLB has a closed-books policy which likely predicts even more profit. Even so, no businessman conducts affairs to lose money. But it’s never been a matter of extremes where most fans are concerned. The only extreme here has been the penchant to sign lower tier players
Re 1: I place no stock in Kovacic’s ramblings. But Starkey, Madden and Benz simply ask questions most fans wonder about. They’re not being contrarian to sell papers but rather, ask logical questions.
Like you, I’m a fan who simply thinks it wouldn’t have taken much to build a competitive team here around their youth. They’ve simply refused
That’s my issue. I’d be happy with a .500 team that hustles game in and game out and hates losing
But more aloof players who are just fine with jogging and losing seems to be the recipe for another season
Again, I appreciate your thoughts and you provide a great deal of food for thought. I just happen to disagree with a lot of the points
All the best to you
I’m curious if Jared played around with Paul’s new cutter? Skenes didn’t throw it his last 2 games which shows he is a smart person.
It’s ok for a pitcher to try different things and learn from mistakes but not the case with the cutter.
You and the cutter. Have any relation to the the football slider obsessed guy?
@ybc. You say it three times, and he will show up. Please don’t. Where’s the pete rose, ohtani is a degenerate gambler, and the trade trout guy.
You guys act like this never happened in the ” Old” Days. Fact is it’s been happening since baseball was invented. Except in the old days the cure was popping pain pills and learning to throw junk pitches or knuckle balls to survive. Now the cure is TJ surgery and a 1 and a half year recovery. If the recovery was 3 months nobody would complain. Maybe someday…….?
Cue the “Trevor Bauer is available” guy.
Haven’t heard from him yet. Maybe he’s paralyzed and can’t type anymore. Fingers crossed. Bauer committed baseball suicide and Lamar Hunt and Jerry Jones don’t own baseball teams. LOL
@unclemike. Mr Tommy john says hold my beer. Ok fine he was the first pitcher that had a ucl surgery, and came back it was a career ending injury before. It happened but the numbers were under 10. They hit that now in the first week of spring training. It’s common to be having your second under the age of thirty. Fine I’m sure can dig up some anomalies but also I bet you will be surprised that ones you thought didn’t. Indeed had it in high-school.
Pretty hard for Lamar Hunt to own anything these days.
@jubilation. Be careful he might call you the dumbest poster ever. He also says hoyer sucks at drafting, and thinks of the prospects as the next Bobby witt Jr. Until they bust and goes back to hoyer needs to get fired.
At Rexy- Fact: Never said Hoyer is bad at drafting. Fact: Hoyer doesn’t draft. Fact: The people who do draft are very good at their jobs. Fact: Hoyer makes stupid trades with those picks for 1 year rentals. Fact: You are the dumbest poster on this site. Fact: You never heard about it in the ” Old ” days because it went undiagnosed because they didn’t know what it was. It happened all the time in baseball history.
@unclemike so who was the last prospect in system that turned out to be great. I know your worm grows thinking of pca. It’s definitely been awhile maybe I can dust off my mervis jersey. They make trades because they know where it’s heading.
I thought they were all called Lamar Hunt. II,III,IV even the women. Huh
@unclemike. And I’m dumb or numb to your b.s. you clearly know football and watched your bears miss the playoffs again. Enough to say signing a 7th round guard to 88 million isn’t a overpay or glossing over the fact he has one full season out of 4. You probably saw Clark hunt hoist the trophy and wished you were a browns fan.
Who was the number 3 guy to have Tommy John?
@foultipper que I’m seriously asking a question.
Bigger fact: Hoyer has three more World Series championships and rings than me, and I guess, you.
Heck, he even one of them with a three month rental. He’s made many a brilliant trade.
Cubby that’s a complete lie. Hoyer might have been on 3 teams who won rings but he wasn’t in charge of any of them and he was just along for the ride. And the Cubs won’t win another one until he’s gone. I mean even the bat boys get rings nowadays.
Bauer’s wrist was stiff because of his girlfriend; he should have focused more on baseball.
And it really doesn’t matter where you get drafted. That might be the stupidest thing you’ve ever said but you do keep outdoing yourself. There are guys in football who are UDFA’s that are in the Pro Bowl. Trey Smith was drafted in the 6th round and has been in the Pro Bowl 3 straight years. There is no more meaning less stat in Sports. Except maybe ” Quality Start”
There’s no reason to ever cut a baseball. There’s better alternatives.
@druncle Mike. Was fries selected to three pro all star games. My bad he got hurt. The formula makes sense because that’s what the bears do. That’s overpaying free agents and not making the playoffs. Hand clap or kudos from you hot dog chugging or swallowing fellow from the south side
Cute. Did you get that from the men’s room wall?
Trevor Bauer is available:-D
I’d take him on a nuts low contract filled with outs for “bad behavior” on a team with crap PR already.
Pirates fits in that but have young options they should probably look to first.
So you are just going to discard that he was the general manager in 2016 for the Cubs?
It’s not a lie…it’s a fact…he has three world series championships.
I may be wrong and maybe you have one….but nothing else is a lie.
GM INO. Everyone knows Epstein ran everything. And Hawkins is the GM just like Hoyer was the GM. Changes toilet paper in the offices for something to do. A model that’s proving inefficient I might add. My biggest fear is they fire the big idiot and anoint the little idiot. Gives me chills just typing that. Well almost everyone knew apparently.
@unclemike we get your a troll and call people idiots. You don’t need too double down. If you you feel chills in your third leg you should quit your day job and change your name to bita.
So is Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux. All 3 have the same chance of pitching int he majors again.
I got it from Swamies injured pitchers.
I got it from Swamies injured pitchers.
Who was the third person to have Tommy John surgery? People never say his name.
@foultipper. Tommy john wasn’t the first person to have ucl surgery. just the first for it to be successful. You talking about the third ever or third successful. Either way my point stands, please don’t talk about the slider grip
Who was the 3rd person to throw the Football Slider?
Taillon May 22 2018 vs Reds.
Actually it was George Blaeholder in the 1920s, but thanks for confirming that you are indeed the Roger Beshens slider troll.
Folty June 1 2018 vs Phillies. Bryce Harper knows.
Why weren’t Major League clubs teaching the football slider before May 2018? They were unaware of it.
I never heard George talk about how he threw his slider.
If he had done it it would have become popular and teams would have started teaching it.
@foultipper. Are you uncle Mike, bita fry ohtani and etc i appreciate your informative comments. Hopefully you get paid but your definitely not getting laid.
What teams were teaching the football slider before 2018? ZERO. ML teams were not aware of it.
No, Rex. Uncle Mike is a good dude
As for “Foul Tipper,” his heart apparently belongs to Roger Beshens. If there was only some way to screw a football slider…
What MLB teams were teaching the Football Slider before 2017 or 2018? NONE. If they were aware of it they would have taught it all throughout the organization.
Roger, there is a reason you can’t get a job anywhere and have to troll internet boards.
How can you tell that he wants a job?
It’s clear that Roger has only shared information to help pitchers do well..
you’re wrong, Skenes was interviewed yesterday and he said he had used the cutter in every game he’s pitched in this spring
Baseball Savant didn’t list any cutter for Paul the last 2 games, that’s not any surprise. It is surprising that the media didn’t mention Pauls cutter pitch the last two games. Maybe Skenes noticed Gerrit Cole and Walstons cutter usage, who teaches it and just forget about it.
There was this guy. Unanimous kind of guy. All he threw was the cutter. For 19 seasons I think. Only had one injury … at age 42. I saw his plaque in Cooperstown.
Yes his cutter was only 1 or 2 mph slower than his Fastball and he threw it in a very different way compared to the cutters today. Hearing that morphing is becoming more like a slider makes me uncomfortable.
FT, that is incorrect. The cutter is thrown the exact same way today that it was by Rivera. The slider and sweeper are both thrown the same way that they always have been. Yes, always. They have both been around for 100+ years. Including your favorite, the “Roger Beshens Football Slider”. The only pitch that has big differences is the changeup and that differences in grip. All those grips have been in use for longer than either of us have been alive. Different pitchers use different changeup grips.
Training has changed. Strength has changed. Pitches have not. That you are trying to claim they have is testament to your lack of understanding of how the game is actually played.
Kyle Boddy did an incredible piece on the fact that its the training methods, not the pitches that are changing. Google it.
Roger Beshens in May 2018 shared with everyone in Major League Baseball how to throw his football slider. That year in Major League Baseball there were more strikeouts than hits for the first time. It was due to his Football Slider. If MLB had known about the Roger Beshens Football Slider in 1972 the Football Slider movement would have started right then.
Roger Beshens shared his helpful tips that allowed many pitchers to learn how to throw his football slider. That’s why he claims he began the Football Slider movement in May 2018.
The type of slider model has changed, more throwing it cause someone explained how it’s thrown.
Someone is training them to throw it wrong, that’s why the guy who came out with is the guy to take to. That’s the right body to talk to.
Why weren’t ML teams teaching the football slider before 2018? They were unaware of it.
The Football Slider is a model it has changed MLB landscape starting in 2018.
If Rivera’s cutter was a model it would be duplicated like the football slider has.
Roger, you know that YOU said that you simply rediscovered something that had been around since the 1920’s.
There is a reason that you have to troll internet boards and can’t get a job with a high school team, let alone in MLB.
Roger never claimed that he created his football slider.
What Major League Team taught the Football Slider before 2018?
Give me an answer or are you going to deflect?
Skenes used his hard to see cutter the last two games the media couldn’t cheer for it because it was so hard to notice.
Should he have been throwing the Roger Beshens Football Slider?
Maybe he did and called it a cutter. It wouldn’t be the first time or the last time.
Hopefully this isn’t a case of “Mr. Jones, meet Dr. ElAttrache.”
If they’re looking for second opinions, that’s a likely diagnosis
Ya, the “second opinion” almost seals the deal on TJ. They wouldn’t be seeking a second opinion if it was a minor issue. 🙁
There will be a fee for reconnecting.
Its an epidemic
Tms dont care, mlb doesnt care, coaches dont care, the only ones who lose are the fans & players. Change must happen ASAP
Not just at major lg level, but hi school college minors
It really starts at the little league level. There’s not much MLB pitchers can do now, with even the youngest early-20s pitchers being conditioned for the last decade-plus that spin and velocity are king. Guess we’ll see if anything at that level ever happens.
@mlb1225: Was going to be charitable by saying starts in HS. You get what you incentivize with velo/spin whether it is trying to land a D1 scholarship, get drafted, escape poverty for those with a talented arm. Someone “pitching” with good movement and command at 92/93 tops doesn’t get as much attention as “throwing” 98 and looking the part with less skill/pitching IQ.
What value are teams getting with a pitcher who throws 98 but has 1 maybe 2 Tommy John surgeries by the time they’re 25?
Instead of someone with higher IQ, throws 93, but stays healthy and productive. If you are not on the field, who cares how fast you throw
You still need to have really good command/movement/secondaries to consistently sit in the low-90s and be effective. Even then, it’s not as if there’s no reason pitchers are throwing hard. Look at the average production against four-seam fastballs in each range of velo:
<90 MPH: .389 wOBA
91-93 MPH: .364
94-96 MPH: .327 wOBA
97-99 MPH: .282 wOBA
100+ MPH: .276 wOBA
Batters hit like Jose Ramirez, Corey Seager, or Rafael Devers againt 91-93 MPH fastballs. Then they hit like Andres Gimenez or Leody Tavares against 97-99 MPH fastballs. It's not as easy as saying "Just throw with less velo and more movement." Even Brent Rooker has said that hitting 97+ MPH down the middle is significantly harder than hitting 92 MPH on the corners. Of course, it's only one batter's opinion, and I'm sure there are some who find 97+ down the middle easier to hit, but generally speaking, he is right. 100+ down the middle resulted in a .246 BA and .395 SLG% in 2023. 90-93 MPH on the edges resulted in a .261 BA and .453 SLG%.
cwsOverhaul
You get what you incentivize with velo/spin
==========================
100% correct, imo. Everyone wants whatever is next. To make the team, to be a starter, to be a star, to get a scholarship, to get drafted, to make the pros.
And that’s on top of the natural inclination to want to win.
Has to start long before that. My grandson is in travel ball at 11 years old and they were teaching scap loading. I pulled him out of that baseball academy immediately once I learned that. It destroys elbows.
Jared Jones knows exactly what he did to get hurt. If MLB truly cared they would ask him what he did differently. If Jared says he was playing with the cutter that would be very helpful information.
My arm hurt but I kept going or the cutter was definitely tough on my arm.
Overthrowing, especially hard sliders, has been a fairly common denominator in a lot of elbow injuries. Ive always been of the impression that thrown correctly, cutters could help preserve arms that would otherwise be at greater risk… but it was different in the past, when people weren’t throwing 97 mph cutters. I agree, it would be interesting to know specifically what he was tinkering with.
And the curse of Horowitz strikes again
Should have traded him when they had the chance
RIP
Remember when pitchers could throw 15 complete games and go 7 innings like it was nothing? Miss the 80s/90s.
That was happening in the 60’s and 70’s too
As you know, we had few guys hitting the 90’s on the gun back in the day. Gibson. Koufax. Ryan. Veale and then guys like Clemens came along
The goal became more heat.
Now everyone and their grandmothers are hitting the gun in the mid 90’s
Between training techniques that entail maxing the arm out, distance drills and the like that go along with actual pitching, it’s no surprise that the injuries have become more commonplace. The human physique can only take so much wear and tear
You have to love being a Pirates fan. The hits just keep coming. In the form of torpedoes
The Pirates are part of a movement and the Tidy Bowl man cleans them every day.
I think there’s a career for you in stand up comedy
Hopefully it’s not as bad as it appears.
He’s always seemed like a max-effort guy, and he’s not big. He’s always had what the cool kids call “bullpen risk”, and I suspect he’s going to have to go there eventually.
They shouldn’t be called pitchers anymore. Those days are gone. They just throw. Hard. All the time until the machine breaks. If I were a GM I’d be looking for the next Maddox or Glavine because all these batters are amped up to hit the 100+mph fastball. Not to mention they didn’t have the surgery in their career and some of these guys have already had it twice, like Ragans for example – and he’s only 27.
Yeah guys that had Maddux and Glavine are out there just laying on the ground and GMs are passing them over.
Maddux and Glavine weren’t really soft-tossers. 88-91 MPH back in the 80s and 90s was sort of average. It would have been like the equivilant of averaging 93-96 MPH today with generational command (see Mariners’ rotatio). Not to mention Maddux had one of the best two-seamers ever. On top of that, pitchers aren’t just going up there chucking upper-90s with no command anymore. The average walk rate on 97+ MPH was only 9.8%. The average walk rate on fastballs between 90-94 MPH was 11.3%.
Batters might be more used to seeing upper-90s, but see comment above. A 97-99 MPH fastball has batters hitting for a .280-ish wOBA. A 91-93 MPH fastball has batters hitting like an all-star-caliber wOBA above .360.
Hopefully it’s nothing too bad. So much strain on elbows with the heat that everyone has. They say your throwing power comes from your lower body and core. Maybe people are getting stronger there than their arms can handle.
And happened from 1846 creation of baseball through the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.
Which pitching coach should be held responsible for Jared’s current injury:
Which one do you prefer? Marinara or Stromboli?
I want to know if Mr Cutter was treated unfairly.
Mr Cutter is clever like Cricky but he completes his tasks quickly.
Roger Beshens is responsible.
Gerrit Cole, Blake Walston and 4 other Dback pitchers are familiar with the cutter and missing time. Paul Skenes has been notified about this. He was told in the same message to try accutane.
2nd opinion almost always means surgery.
Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone knew how to throw Mariano Rivera’s cutter. Then pitching coaches wouldn’t have to do trial and error and ruin pitchers.
Wouldn’t it be nice if they banned your new account like they have your 10 or 12 Roger Beshens Football Slider accounts.
New account?
You mean this is the Beshens super fan?
Oy
Foultipper is the Roger Beshens slider guy
What is Cecconi doing in Cleveland? Is he struggling to take advice?
Merry Christmas.
Does he move in one piece tho?
I think he’s in Pitt isn’t he? He’s on a wild broom ride.
Jones’ elite strikeout rates and velocity suggest he’s pushing his arm near its maximum capacity, a trait common among young power pitchers. His lat strain last year and now elbow discomfort aren’t random—they’re data points signaling that his current pitching approach exceeds what his connective tissues can sustain over time. The mind-blowing insight is that this isn’t just Jones’ problem—it’s an industry-wide blind spot. Teams could, in theory, use real-time biomechanical modeling (e.g., torque on the UCL, fatigue thresholds in the lat) paired with pitch-tracking data to create a personalized “stress ceiling” for each pitcher. Instead, they wait for breakdown, then scramble.
A shift from reactive care to predictive engineering could redefine pitcher longevity. No one’s discussing this because it demands a leap from baseball’s artisanal traditions to a data-driven science most teams aren’t ready to embrace.
MLB allowed people who never played at a high level to make important decisions.
I said as much above in reflecting upon my time as a coach/pitching instructor
Well stated, York
The problem is that in the past 20 years a cottage industry has popped up and produced many disciples who are preaching heat at all costs. Where you had five guys hitting the 90’s 30-35 years ago, now it’s a must at this level
Pitching sessions now feature drills to max out velocity. Little thought is put into the wear and tear on a human arm. Mechanics are given short shrift.
In Pittsburgh alone, look at the guys who’ve come up with great heat but have problems with either control in general or staying off of Main Street
Back in the olden days, control had to be mastered at the younger ages. No spin pitch instruction. No sessions meant to max the velocity out But that’s dinosaur talk today
There’s a reason TJ injuries are so common now from high school up.
Everyone is different, of course, but the human arm generally can only take so much until something goes
MrMuyBueno
produced many disciples who are preaching heat at all costs.
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How do you know it’s not the breaking pitches? When I was growing up, for at least 30 years, everyone blamed injuries on throwing too many breaking pitches and the torque on the elbow.
Joe, just for context, this was the quote in entirety:
“The problem is that in the past 20 years a cottage industry has popped up and produced many disciples who are preaching heat at all costs”
In every posting I’ve made on this subject, I tried to go out of my way to say every pitcher is different. I don’t think there’s any way of knowing if working on any one pitch caused an injury unless a pitcher is just spending a great deal of time on it
I agree and come from a time when breaking pitch instruction was outlawed for kids at 12 or 14. At the same time however, it’s been my experience over the past 15 years or so that instructors have prioritized the radar gun with a number of drills to ratchet up speed.
Just my two cents and nothing more, but just as we see the majority of pitchers throwing at 90+ as never before, we also see arm injuries like never before.
I’m sorry to have implied anything
Is Skenes nervous about throwing his new cutter? King Cole recently upped his slider usage in 2024 and paying the consequences. If I were in Skenes place I would open the trunk grab a coke turn the Air conditioning in the Kia and politely decline.
How do these pitchers sleep at night?
On a mattress from Posture Pedic
Teams would have slept better if they taught the football slider before 2017. They were unaware of it. Why didn’t those guys who threw it decades back explain how they threw it so their teams could have dominated? Secret, secret.
Are we going to see pitchers throwing bowling balls in the bullpen soon? Mitch Williams 5 hole 16 pounder black beauty.
How many pitching coaches do the Pirates need?
I’m glad Skenes got the message not to throw that new cutter. Cole, Walston and 4 Dbacks pitchers got hurt at different time last year and they all threw the cutter. That tells you it isn’t safe.
I think Paul is a smart person and will not throw the cutter. He received a message telling him not to throw it. Five Dback pitchers yes Five not four have missed playing time in 2024 and now one is undergoing Tommy John surgery. In 2024 Cole used his cutter more often suggests he should stop using the cutter because it’s not exactly like Riveras, instead it’s been morphed to resemble a slider more closely.
Some pitching coaches believe their version of the cutter is similar to Rivera’s because he was so succesful with it but that’s not true.
There shouldn’t be a comma before “too.”