Here are three things we’ll be keeping an eye on headed into the weekend:
1. Winter Meetings to begin:
The Winter Meetings are set to begin next week, which means on Sunday players, agents, and executives alike from around the game will begin flocking to Orlando. There’s been plenty of trade and free agent activity already. Impact free agents like Devin Williams and Dylan Cease have already signed, and the trade market has been buzzing all winter long with deals like the Brandon Nimmo for Marcus Semien swap, Boston’s acquisition of Sonny Gray, and last night’s five-player deal between the Pirates and Red Sox. The activity should only ratchet up from here leading up to and throughout the meetings, with plenty of exciting moves to come in the next few days. Be sure to stay tuned in to MLBTR for all the latest rumors and deals!
2. Red Sox loading up on pitching:
Yesterday’s aforementioned trade saw Boston ship top outfield prospect Jhostynxon Garcia (along with pitching prospect Jesus Travieso) to Pittsburgh for a package consisting of right-hander Johan Oviedo, minor league lefty Tyler Samaniego, and catching prospect Adonys Guzman. The deal added another viable starter to a Red Sox club that was already deep in rotation candidates. Oviedo likely slots in towards the back of the club’s rotation alongside Patrick Sandoval, with Garrett Crochet, Sonny Gray, and Brayan Bello in the first three slots and younger pieces like Connelly Early, Kyle Harrison, and Payton Tolle serving as depth. Even that doesn’t factor in Kutter Crawford, who missed the 2025 season due to injury but was a valuable rotation piece as recently as 2024. The Red Sox figure to remain quite active in the offseason markets headed into next week’s Winter Meetings.
3. Eras Committee voting results to be revealed:
One of the first pieces of the Winter Meetings schedule is also one of its most important, as a committee of former players, executives, and media members will convene to vote on the Hall of Fame candidacies of this year’s slate of Eras Committee nominees. This year’s nominees are Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Carlos Delgado, Jeff Kent, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Gary Sheffield, and Fernando Valenzuela. At least 12 votes from the committee’s 16 members are needed to be inducted into Cooperstown, and the results of that vote will be revealed at 6:30pm CT this coming Sunday on MLB Network.
Go Murphy!
Murphy, Mattingly and Kent are all deserving. No PED guys and I’ll be happy as I recognize the likelihood of all three is just about nil. Delgado was very good but not HOF in my view. Finslly, I’ve reexamined my take on Fernando who was amazing. Sort of like Mark Fidrych. When either pitched, it was “must see TV”. While Fernando’s resume is far stronger than the Bird’s, I don’t think it was long enough.That said, if he gets in, I won’t be upset.
Big Papi is in so they might as well let in Bonds and Clemens. Those two don’t get in because they smile less than him?
I was against Papi but two wrongs don’t make it right and more cheaters enshrined would be another slap in the face of the true deserving.
The HOF is a joke without Pete Rose, and the two—Bonds and Clemens—who were never found to be juicing.
If racist Ty Cobb is in there along with Bagwell, Papi and others, the purist voters show favoritism and no consistency.
Papi never failed a drug test or admitted to using anything..where is your proof?
Papi never cheated even though his name was leaked prior to a formal testing policy there has never been any proof regarding him and he steadfastly denies any wrongdoing
ohyeadam how does two wrongs make a right? Either you are ok with PED guys getting in or you’re not.
The HOF is a joke without Rose? You support pedophiles getting enshrined into baseball’s greatest honor?
The dude dated a teenager. How can you be ok with him getting anything other than prison time or where he’s at now.
It’s been shown that many of the allegations against Cobb, like some of the stuff in Charles Alexander’s biography of him, were grossly exaggerated. But I agree with you that Bonds and Clemens should be in. The majority of players were juicing during that time. And they were both great players before they ever used PEDs.
He failed in 2003 he was 1 of 100 players who names were leaked when they did survey testing and he tested positive
HOF is not supposed to include off field activity. But if you want to go there, he bet on baseball which is an MLB rule posted in every clubhouse and an annual spring training visit to remind them. He did not bet against the Reds, but didn’t bet on every game, so the gamblers knew that when he did not bet that he was not confident in the team’s chances that game. He also likely bet as a player. He was also a pedophile, he claims she was 16, she says he was 14, but given that Pete was a born liar, it is likely that she is correct. It was great to see him humiliated after getting banned, signing autographs, and getting fat and lumpy. One good thing though was that he was a very bad gambler.
Spickard, without the other 99 names, that allegation is meaningless. I’m not defending him, but that “list” is completely bogus.
Please stop with the Cobb racist nonsense. mlb.com/news/ty-cobb-history-built-on-inaccuracies…
The world was different when Cobb played. For as great as Rose was, he injured another player without remorse in an exhibition game, could have ruined pitchers by playing them when he bet on the game and continued to lie to cover things up. No way in my book he belongs in the hall although I recognize it could happen. We all know Bonds and Clemens both used. Stop lying to yourself about them being clean.
Pool, Sox ownership knows he juiced. Why else would they change and get his number retired before he was enshrined? Had it come out then, they would not have been able to do it. They have reverted back to retiring only HOF players as Tiant and Evans would have had their numbers long retired as well.
The bottom line is we don’t know what Ortiz tested positive for in 2003. It may not have been steroids. The test results were destroyed and there were many false positives.
usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/02/rob-manfr…
Yes, he failed a test in 2003, but it was never revealed exactly what he tested positive for. The problem is those results were skewed by a number of positive tests for supplements that were legal at the time, such as andro, etc. Ortiz attempted to get MLB to release the results of what he tested positive for, but they refused. So to this day, we still don’t know what he tested positive for, so grouping him in with known cheaters like Bonds (he admiited to using the Cream and the Clear – both which contained steroids) is a stretch, and keep in mind that his career really didn’t take off until after the official steroid policy was in place (2004), and he never tested positive for PEDs under that policy.
It certainly is supposed to include off-field activity, and the criteria go there. They consider (among other factors) the player’s “integrity, sportsmanship, [and] character.” So anyone wondering why Rose is not in the HoF need look no further than the standards of induction. Not that many care.
So true ‘All’.
1) The list was reported by a reporter and never verified by the league. Only a few names were released. (If real, why only a few names, who was the reporter protecting?). The list was so predictable, many believe it was made up.
2) There were several substances that were tested for, werent banned the next year by the league. We dont know what Ortiz failed for.
3) There was no appeal process for him even though players have won in appeal. (Ryan Braun and Eliezer Alfonzo)
Without full disclosure its basically a nothing burger.
Neither did Bagwell…
Delgado has about the same numbers bagwell and Willie Stargell had.
It’s not all about the numbers. Did Delgado win the WS? Stargell was the leader of the Pirates in 79.
Willie Stargell 57.6 WAR according to BRef.
Delgado 44.4.
That seems like Hall of Very Good territory.
With that said, I’d rather see Delgado get in than cheaters like Bonds and Clemens.
Winning a World Series should have nothing to do with it. Baseball is not a sport where one player can singlehandedly lift his team into the World Series and win it.
By war Barry bond was twice the player Griffey jr was.
Valenzuela should be inducted, at long last, because of his impact on the team on which he played and on the sport of baseball. These are actual criteria for admission, and no revaluation is required to see that he was a phenomenon of the kind rarely seen in the game. He transformed the fan base in Southern California and internationally. If he’s overlooked again, it will be shameful — a travesty.
Fernando Valenzuela!
I don’t understand why he’s not in. I loved the guy and I’m far from a Dodgers fan. I can’t think of anyone who said bad things about the guy. He was well loved across the sport.
My interpretation: because even the voters don’t read (or care about) the actual induction criteria.
HOF is a joke
It’s now the HOVG
Sheffield
The guy who PURPOSELY made an error so the Brewers would trade him. Not HOF material.
Pete’sView: You have proof of this?
Gary Sheffield himself.
FWIW, Crawford led the Sox in IP in 2024. I think he has more value to the club than most think or know. How that affects his trade value, IDK, but I’d be fine w giving him every chance to earn a spot in the rotay.
“rotay”
I didn’t realize those additional three characters to spell “rotation” were so challenging.
Eh, I just type how I talk.
Okay, I’ve never before read or heard that word.
I tend to shun it.
Sound it out …
Do your loved ones return the favor by saying “ I-L-U?”
“Sorry hun, I could not spare the extra .03 seconds of my life to say the entire word!”
Yes, I am hyperbolizing to emphasize the absurdity of someone typing “rotay.”
I have strong feelings myself about some word usages, I get it. I should know better than to color outside the lines amongst the commentariat.
Rotay on this!!
Ruh roh!
@seanhenge….I was being facetious about loved ones saying “I L U.” I use many text abbreviations in texting with people I know will get that form of shorthand. Here is maybe not the best place for that. But the substance of your comment was solid
*swanhenge*
Only Murphy deserves it. Maybe Kent. Bonds and Clemens no for PED reasons. Sheffield was never a winner and there were PED concerns about him as well. I loved Mattingly as a player but his back derailed him, like David Wright, too soon to be viable as HOF.
Gary Sheffield won a World Series with marlins in 97.
Forgot that! Something about how he could never stick struck me as keeping him from HOF. You think he should be in?
I do Gary Sheffield numbers are hof. 292 ave 509 homers 2689 hits 1676 rbi. I say he is but people will say peds but he says he was clean and never failed a test and you figure there are already guys in who did stuff
Bonds and Clemens never failed a test, and yet they’re being discriminated against. HOF has become a joke.
I agree with you. I-rod is in he did peds. Was named in Jose canseco’s book. Everyone he named none of them have ever sued him for lying so must be telling the truth
Mattingly was amongst the most feared hitters in the AL for three straight years. I compare David Wright to Dustin Pedroia. Both would have made the HOF had they not gotten injured. Mattingly though I believe is a notch above both and deserving when you compare him to others that are already in.
I grew up idolizing Donnie baseball. My favorite player and Yankee. Mattingly had basically the same numbers the late Kirby Puckett had. I hope Mattingly gets.
Spickard, I compare Puckett to Thurman Munson who also should be in.
Mattingly should have won the mvp in 86 as well but they gave it to Clemens when he went 24-4 back in those days wins matter because guys throw 9 back then.
A three year span is not deserving of the Hall of Fame. If that were the case, Chris Davis should be in too. The career numbers just aren’t big enough. That being said, lesser players are in, so maybe he will get chosen.
Don Mattingly was the best player in the game for five years then injuries.
WOW, thee straight years!! OMG-OMG
I said three years but it was likely more as Spickard mentioned. Mattingly was amongst the best defensive first basemen of his generation and had he played in the late 70s or late 90s when the Yankees won, he already would be in the hall. It certainly was not his fault that the team around him wasn’t great.
I agree I think the two ws that Kirby won with the twins in 87,91 definitely help his case. Numbers wise he was about the same as Mattingly plus they played in the same era
Bonds and Clemens were allowed by baseball to play in games. They were not found to have violated MLB rules. As far as MLB goes, they were and are in good standing.
A-Rod on the other hand…did violate the rules, was suspended violations of the PED rules of Baseball. Not just once either.
Ty Cobb went into the stands and viciously beat a man in the stands (and stomped on him with his cleats).
Bonds and Clemens are Hall of Fame players…anybody who watched them and the era knows this.
Wasn’t there a court case with both involved that they took peds? People under oath saying they did.
paosfan — Yes, that’s true. It is also true that Baseball had no rules/enforcement of PED’s.
Additionally, keep in mind that EVERYONE in MLB knew about the doping and most were encouraged to do so by their Clubs.
Reporters that tried to hold MLB and the players accountable for the usage were blackballed by the league and dropped from legacy media groups for bringing it up.
Players should be evaluated in the time they played and at that time it was prolific and unregulated. (Rather it was the opposite, encouraged, tracked, monitored and kept under wraps by the Industry as a whole).
Rules without enforcement are suggestions.
Absolutely. And Roger Clemens was found not guilty of perjury when he denied using steroids. He belongs in the Hall.
paosfan— No. (see above)
O’say I agree with you. But can you or anyone tell me when MLB outlawed peds and when did they implement those rules. If those guys never failed a test and never broke the rules why are they being punished for something that might have done? I also think the hof standard might be a little to high I understand high standards makes it even more sweeter of a victory when getting in. Furthermore I think the players should have a huge say who gets in not a bunch of writers who may have personal beef with this one or that …..Mattingly Murphy were the best at there position for a decade and if you had the blessings to see these guys in there prime you would agree …Bonds Clemmens should get in imo they were great players Sunday will be a fun day to see who gets in….thanks for letting me babble. This site keeps me sane in the winter gonna be very busy winter meeting lots of trades n signings
I don’t like any of the players on the ballot. Most of them are Hall of Decent but not Hall of Famers. And we should be removing existing cheaters from the HOF. Far too many currently in the HOF.
All the players on that ballot were better than Harold Baines who is in the hof
Baines is in because Reinsdorf was buddies with Selig. He definitely didn’t deserve it.
And that’s the problem with these Era Committees. They’re very small so all you need are a couple of cronies on the panel and you’re in.
Spickard I got to see Baines a ton growing up in Chicago the old Cominskey was such a great old stadium I nearly cried when they tore it down. Baines was a fantastic player but HOF? That’s a tough one imo but maybe the hall should put more guys in? Nfl NHL NBA seems much easier to get in. It’s a great debate on what makes a player HOF fame worthy.
I understand your sentiment for baines but he was a good dh but not a hof. He was no better a hitter than Johnny Damon. Damon is not a hof but I like these debates
@ Old York agree1000%. Don’t vote someone in just to do it. I’m upset upset Bobby Grich didn’t get voted in. But life goes on.
@DolemiteisMyname
His HOF stats on Baseball Reference don’t seem to suggest he belongs, though.
@OldYork. I’ve read that Grich was one of the top 2B of his era. He was on the ballot I believe last year. But obviously didn’t get enough votes. IMHO players that play on the West Coast are overlooked due to by the time the west coast games are on TV most the people are in bed on East Coast and don’t see these players as much.
Grich should be in. He was very underrated when he played. He was a good fielder and had a ton of power for a second baseman of his day. Not playing long enough to get to 2,000 hits has kept him from getting enough votes.
@DolemiteisMyname
I think his problem was that the Hall of Fame is of REMEMBERED Greatness, not a Hall of ACTUAL Greatness. The guy essentially had a sabermetric career but he wasn’t recognized for it.
It’s a big reason I’m not a fan of the Hall of Fame as it’s not really about the actual greats in our game but more of a memory of history by those who remembered greatness.
Dole I agree with you onThe Gritch and how in blue faq is SWEET LOU WHITTAKER not in?
Red Sox seem to be doing their holiday shopping early. It’s an interesting strategy–
Breslow paying a premium to get the specific guys he wants as opposed to waiting until January and digging through the clearance bin.
Could work out quite well–especially if they can fill needs with trades instead of huge long-term contracts (unless necessary).
I like your logic. Big Name Long-Term FAs dont usually work in Boston. Their track record the last 25 years is pretty bad:
JD Drew Daisuke Matsuzaka John Lackey Hanley Ramirez David Price Panda Sandoval Masataka Yoshida Trevor Story
Not an impressive group.
You forgot one of the worst… Carl Crawford.
Rusney
That’s AA’s job in Atlanta to shop the clearance bin!
If you keep out Bonds and Clemens for cheating, then you need to give Murphy bonus points for good character.
If Bonds and Clemens were suspended like A-Rod, there’d be an argument for excluding them.
If baseball let them play, the performances are legit. Simple stuff.
They were identified in court testimony as having taken peds.
At a time when it wasn’t against MLB rules to use steroids. As opposed to say the Astros trash can scandal. Which yes a lot of the league was doing but was still breaking the rules everyone has agreed too. Bonds, Clemens never broke MLB rules
“At a time when it wasn’t against MLB rules to use steroids.”
It was illegal under federal law. Bonds did not take them openly and in fact used the Clear which was designed to be undetectable.
The players knew it was illegal, Bonds knew it was illegal, and they also knew it was cheating.
Just because MLB turned a blind eye to it doesnt mean they should continue to do so.
Bingo. Wasn’t against the rules at the time not to mention that teams and the league absolutely knew it was happening and they didn’t care because it was quite literally saving the game.
They should be in the HOF, I don’t really care how many PEDs bonds took, he was for a long period the greatest single batter ever. PEDs aren’t magic, there are thousands of players who are loaded up on PEDs that never make it out of AA.
Put bonds in, and on his plaque you can make a comment about how his head grew 2 hat sizes.
paosfan—
Hearsay but neither ever tested positive for PEDs. Whispers didn’t keep Bagwell or Papi out. Sure is a double standard. A HOF without Rose, Binds & Clemens is a HOF WITHOUT integrity.
Bonds was never arrested or convicted of those crimes.
It was against the rules starting in 1991, but they didn’t start testing until 2003. Bonds was using in 2004.
Clemens not only used steroids against the rules, but he threw his wife under the bus.
Bham, you are correct. Apologies
Major League Baseball (MLB) officially banned steroids in a 1991 memo sent by Commissioner Fay Vincent to all teams. However, this memo was a “moral statement” and did not include a formal testing program or penalties due to the lack of an agreement with the players’ union.
Whether you agree or disagree, the exact case for keeping those 3 out is integrity. Rose put the whole sport at risk by gambling, look at what is happening now in other sports. Bonds and Clemens stole meaningful records from the game through steroids taking away from the games history.
Steroids were illegal. If they’re illegal then they were against the rules.
The Red Sox picking up Oviedo makes me believe that adding pitching is probably done now. Though I hope not. Resigning Bregman is a must as is right-handed slugger. Maybe Bello can establish himself as a legit #2 or Gray can once again be that guy. IMO they have a #1 , Crochet,and a bunch of #3+,4,5s,as well as promising rookies. . Still have a logjam in the
outfield/DH spots. I thought Garcia would be a valuable piece to include for a #2 rotation piece.
Picking pitching slots in December is overrated. For now they have a bunch of arms to cycle through the rotation during the season and keep everyone rested. Pitching slots are only important in October. By then someone will step up.
My prediction:
Red Sox sign either Bregman, Murakami or Alonso and fill in the other infield position via trade of Duran. (Maybe bring in a catcher to pair with Narvaez). Team will be set then.
After I slept on the trade, in *some* ways I get it, BUT its a tricky one, kind of like buying/building on spec and hoping what you’ve got is desirable.
You weren’t gong to trade an abreu/duran and a Garcia in the same trade to another team.
Other disposable pieces like casas or yoshida are *not* desirable enough to be the headliner of the trade for high impact players – nor, for that matter, was Garcia.
And a volume over quality deal doesnt net you mich above the lower end of average at best – sort of like ovideo.
So while I initially hoped to see Garcia as the 2nd or 3rd piece to a blockbuster, teams dont typically need both a established starter like duran/abreu and a guy ready for mlb starts like Garcia in the same trade.
Gasx
Valid points. My thoughts were maybe a package that included Garcia and other prospects could have netted someone with more a established history . With Duran/Abreu highlighting a trade to get you that #2.
This was a trade of two teams swapping from area’s of depth. Garcia had no clear path to playing in Boston under the current roster construction and Oviedo may have been the odd man out of a surprisingly deep Pirates rotation. The Sox get another arm to add to the pile and the Pirates get a potential slugger to help a lineup that was dreadful last season
It depends on their view of Garcia. We’ve had plenty of fringe top-100 guys over the years with K problems. Chavis for one. Yorke to a lesser degree. We waited too long on some of them. Sometimes cashing in your chips is a good idea.
I assumed the cost of trading for #2 type reasonably priced pitcher like Joe Ryan is well beyond their liking right now. It also looks like the move is more about flexibility than a win now move. With Gray, Sandoval being on 1 year deals you’re looking at Crochet, Bello being the only “guarantees” for 2027 at the moment with currently unproven prospects and health/effectiveness of Crawford and Houck.
I’d say the real question is will they be willing to make that big trade for someone like Joe Ryan or Sandy Alcantara at the trade deadline if needed or will they continue with the Dustin Mays of league?
Red Sox have a bunch of starters who could be that #2 by mid-season. Prices are at a premium at the Trading Deadline. If they need to trade for a top-notch pitcher at that point, they probably shouldnt.
I think they’re picking up pitching to position themselves to trade away young pitching as needed. They have 14 starting pitchers on the 40 man roster, which is a clear abundance. Granted, one is Houck, who will be put on the 60 day IL in March. But they have numerous others that could be packaged together for singular upgrades or fill vacant infield position.s
Gray is easily the #2 here. He led the league with a 5.29 K/BB rate and had a 3.39 FIP. People judging him off his ERA are doing it wrong. And Tolle and Early are going to force their way into the discussion, too. I wouldn’t be too worried about the rotation if you’re a Sox fan.
7 of the 16 voters are HOF players who all played before the steroid era.
I do not see Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Kent, or Delgado getting in because of this.
They would not be eligible to be on the ballot again until 2030.
I think Murphy is a lock.
I could see Mattingly and/or Valenzuela get in based on factors such as: very very close career numbers, cultural impact, popularity with the people in the game, and who is voting.
Astros, Kent wanted an airtight policy on PEDs and to my knowledge, there has not been a suggestion he used outside of he was Bond’s teammate. He likely didn’t get voted in by the writers because like Albert Belle, he was hated by the media (and some other players too).
I loved Kent especially when he played 2 years in the orange and navy (I guess it was mud and blood that timeframe)
My comment was mostly because He was a power hitter during the steroid era and players and media from the 70s and 80s “semi-dead ball era” are notoriously critical of those from that era.
Guys who never had any reports, failed tests, or connection to steroids other than results and “the eye test” were off the ballot due to lack of votes after 1 year or took way too long to finally get in because of this.
Good point on the former players…they will not vote for Bonds and Clemens since they all played before them.
Now as far as a conspiracy goes about making sure the committee is packed with No votes, well, I’m sure it’s just a coincidence…
I’m not suggesting a conspiracy. The committee may very well be randomly chosen.
But with such a small sample size, the makeup of the committee is a huge factor in who gets in.
HOF system seems really Rube Goldberg these days. So many entry points, stretched out over so many years.
Aren’t there only two ways for a player to get in? BBWAA and Eras Committee.
Murphy, Fernando, and a bunch or steroid users.
I don’t envy the committee having to choose among these guys.
I think I would go with Dale Murphy, Fernando Valenzuela and Don Mattingly if I had to pick 3.
People forget it is the Hall of FAME, not Hall of numbers. I personally think character is a big part of it and guys who did steroids…sorry, I can’t see it. That stuff was all over the minors in my day and most of us said no.
Except it’s not the Hall of Character either. There’s a bunch of guys in the hall who would have to be thrown out if character actually mattered.
Gaylord Perry cheated his way into the hall (spitballs).
Ty Cobb was a violent racist who repeatedly attacked fans.
Cap Anson and Kenesaw Mountain Landis were instrumental in segregating baseball and keeping generations of black players out of the league.
Babe Ruth was a womanizing drunk
Roberto Alomar is a known abuser of women.
Kirby Puckett was also believed to have assaulted several women.
The list goes on.
Character only matters if voters simply don’t like the guy and have to invent a reason to reject him.
Canuck – you’ve got to look at those players with a lens of what was socially acceptable *at the time of induction* – not under various modern standards.
Today, steroids are frowned upon, ans thus, are a reason to refuse to vote for the guy on conduct/moral grounds.
When a lot of those guys were inducted, their behavior wasn’t reviled the way it is today.
Abusing women was cool when Puckett and Alomar were inducted?
All the hitters Gaylord Perry faced were all cool with him cheating them?
When Ty Cobb was playing, were all ball players violent racists who assaulted fans?
If you want to drop Babe Ruth off that list, fine. It wasn’t that out of the norm for that time.
I agree with the historical lens thing, but that doesn’t mean everyone gets a pass for everything they did just because it happened a long time ago. Some things are wrong, no matter the time period.
So by that reason then Curt Schilling should be in if character isn’t a big deal now.
Exactly… how quickly everyone forgot how he was such a big contributor to ALS and other charities…
I dislike Schilling as a human, but I support his entrance into the HOF—how could anyone having seen him pitch over the years think differently?
Kirby’s wife is a saint. Probably the only reason he got into the HOF
Canuckleball…Curt Schilling on line one…..
Yeah, that’s why Ty Cobb is in, Big Papi too.
Alright… I think I’m finally going to switch my position. Just let Bonds and Clemens in. Or make some statement that says they’ll be eligible after they die in order to deny them something.
The Hall is watered down. I said this before Harold Baines and for me he was the nail in the coffin. The truth is even without PEDs, Clemens and Bonds were insanely good players and it’s not like there are not cheaters in the hall of fame. There’s at least a dozen pitchers who doctored the ball regularly. Before the Black Sox scandal throwing games was far more common than we’d like to think. It was just the fact it happened in the WS was what made the act so terrible. Both Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb were implicated as some of the bigger names.
And here’s the other truth… Bonds and Clemens in the Hall doesn’t mean people will forget. Wasn’t Bonds’s record breaking home run donated with an asterisk burned into it? At this point, they’re just part of the lore.
Oh and final note…. Buck O’Neil. He ended up being a huge ambassador of the game. If anyone deserves another vote it’s him.
Buck O’Neill was inducted a couple of years ago.
Ok… I’ve apparently been asleep for four years. Thank you for the correction.
So Pete rose should now get in although he broke the rules? If bonds/clemens get in then why have rules?
Steroids weren’t against mlb rules while bonds and Clemens were playing
Steroids were banned in 1991. Both were playing then. Testing didnt come until 2004
Rose broke the rules as a manager. He deserves election to the Hall for his playing career.
This is quite an ironic election. There is, of course, no question that but for the stain of steroids, Bonds and Clemens would be in the Hall. So let’s look at two of the members of the Committee who will be judging their moral fitness to become members.
Juan Marichal is the author of perhaps the ugliest incident ever on a baseball field. Had Roseboro not forgiven him, he never would have gotten into the HOF. And, in my judgment, that shouldn’t have mattered. An all-star pitcher for sure, but Marichal is 47th in career JAWS for SPs and his WAR and JAWS are no better than Rick Reuschel, and only slightly better than David Cone, neither of whom are in the Hall and neither of whom ever hit an opponent over the head with a baseball bat.
If you’ve been following the testimony in the Tyler Skaggs trial, no matter how you feel about the merits of the case, you can’t help but conclude that Arte Moreno runs a disgraceful operation (which was probably obvious even before the trial).
Neither of these men is fit to sit in judgment of Bonds or Clemens.
It is completely illogical that David Ortiz is in the HOF but Bonds, Clemens, and A Rod are not.
I can see arguments to keep all the known roiders out. I can see an argument for letting them in.
But currently we have the least valuable of the bunch in and the best ones out.
Ortiz tested positive in a 2003 survey when PEDs were NOT illegal. After it was banned, Bonds was involved in the BALCO scandal and his head size grew. Clemens was implicated by his trainer Brian McNamee who provided Congress DNA evidence and his HGH-peddling actions were corroborated by Andy Pettitte and Chuck Knoblauch. No more needs to be said about ARod.
So papi gets away with an actual failed test and all the others are guilty by hearsay?
The bottom line is we don’t know what Ortiz tested positive for in 2003. It may not have been steroids. The test results were destroyed and there were many false positives.
usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/02/rob-manfr…
Clemens testified before Congress that he did not use steroids, was charged with perjury, and found not guilty in a court of law. That’s good enough for me. Vote him in.
Remember when he threw his wife under the bus and said the ones delivered to Jim house were hers…stand up, believable guy. If Bonds and Clemens ever want to be considered they should own that they did it and make the case that they weren’t wrong for doing them at the time. They won’t because they knew then they made a choice to cheat the game.
Oh my, you’re going to catch a ton of flak from Sox fans on this one. A majority of them (mostly young ones)call him the GOAT. Stand by, my friend….
Denial is more than a river, ha ha.
I love how Sox fans vilify A Rod for failing the same test they dismiss for Ortiz.
Except Ortiz was never caught or admitted to using any particular thing, and, the alleged survey sample that was selectively leaked didn’t say what other why the positive was indicated nor had a backup up sample checked which later on wouldve happened and has cleared other guys.
Yeah, other than the positive test, using the same PED peddling out of network doctor as A Rod, the weight gain, and leading the league in slugging at age 40 there’s not much evidence.
There’s no need to be blindly loyal.
I mean Carlton Fisk and Darryl Evan’s had big years when they were nearly 40?? A-Rod like Manny KNEW of the ramifications… and still went on and did it…
Ortiz had higher slugging percentage at age 40 than Bonds did. And we all know 40 year old Bonds was juicing.
Ortiz slogged .602 and had an OPS over a thousand. The heard of at 40.
I like Fisk and had never really considered his late career resurgence but in hindsight a 155 OPS+ at 40 followed by 136 and 134 from 1988 to 1990 looks funky. We all know the A’s were juicing on those years. Hopefully just a real resurgence.
@HalosHeavenJJ Isn’t that only speculation about Ortiz’ production at 40 while he was subject to random drug testing?
Yes. When people do superhuman things there’s usually a reason. And when the person doing superhuman things has previously tested positive and admits in many interviews to receiving test results in the mail several times per year they are giving it away.
Most likely MLB allowed him to have some bs therapeutic use exemption for testosterone or something which excused his positive PED tests so he wasn’t punished. That’s by far the most logical conclusion in this case.
Vote them all in. I haven’t followed the HOF narrative since Ripken went in. PED era just took the wind out of it’s sails.
Fernando is the only member of that list that falls short of the standard (or what the standard should be)
Anyone else just not care that much about the hof? I appreciate it in principal but it just seems watered down or irrelevant to me these days.
It is criminal Bonds is not in the HOF, I am biased growing up in the SF Bay Area and watching his entire Giants career but he was named player of the 90’s by Sporting News with a WAR of 80.1 from 1990-1999. Many consider 60 WAR a threshhold for HOF eligibility and Barry had surpassed that mark before any real steriod allegations. Plenty of “juicers” are already in the HOF, while steriods logically does positively impact your eveeryday physical capbilities it didn’t turn these accused players from nobodies into HOF worthy ones. LIke @bronxlou mentioned, plenty of immoral and questionable players are already in.
Players are still using performance enhancing drugs, they just go through the team doctor for their “prescription”.
If Bonds gets in all the PED guys should be in.
Some already are…..
Murphy Kent and Delgado for me with this group. Mattingly didn’t hit enough home runs.
The HOF in Cooperstown is ok; it’s the stores on the street where the real HOF is.
Any good pizza restaurants you would recommend there?
No player with a history of taking PEDS should ever be inducted into the HOF. They had an unfair advantage. It would be as ridiculous as giving a dude playing in women’s sports a medal for beating a girl.
If any of them ever get in, then Pete Rose should automatically be inducted posthumously.
Confusing to me why David Ortiz is in the HOF and Bonds and Clemens are not. Dale Murphy was the best player of the 1980’s—an entire decade for Chrisakes!! He should be in.
Not my comment, but from Reddit:
The only drug test that Ortiz failed was a survey test conducted in 2003. The purpose of this test wasn’t to catch individuals who were using PEDs. The purpose of the test was to get a general idea of how many people were using PEDs, and if that number was over a certain threshold, it triggered a mandatory drug testing program (this program went into place anyway due to pressure from lawmakers, but that’s beside the point). Promises were made that any failed tests would not be linked to any individual, but names were eventually leaked to the New York Times in 2009. Ortiz was one of the names leaked, along with Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez.So, that means that Ortiz used PEDs, right? Well, not exactly. And it’s because of the nature of the test, and the veracity of the results. For example:
-Both Major League Baseball and the MLBPA have stated that the number of positive tests from the survey was 96. The list that the New York Times got access to had 104 names on it. This calls into question the accuracy of the list the NYT saw. It is obviously incorrect in terms of the overall number; it may also be incorrect in terms of the names
-The MLBPA contested 13 of the 96 positive tests, but it’s unclear which 13 players were the subject of this dispute
-The list that the NYT got access to was compiled by the federal government, who exceeded their Constitutional authority. Agents were given warrants to seize drug samples and test results for just the 10 players involved in the BALCO investigation. We have no way of knowing whether the government properly obtained the information they used to compile the list, or what information it was – was it samples, lab records, computer records, or something else?
-Because it was a survey test, players were not told what they tested positive for. A player could have tested positive for PEDs, or a masking agent, or something else entirely. They could have been deliberately popping Winstrol, or they might have taken something they bought at GNC that lacked quality control and had a banned substance in it. Whether it was the former or the latter, there was no reason for anyone to care, because there were no consequences for failing the test, so the fact that testing was going on wouldn’t have caused anyone to be diligent about what they were putting in their body in the same way that they need to be now.
So, does that mean that Ortiz didn’t use PEDs? No. Given the atmosphere around Major League Baseball at the time, it stands to reason that he was probably using something, just like it stands to reason that most guys were probably using something as well. But the fact that there isn’t a direct link to Ortiz using PEDs gives some people pause when it comes to slapping him with the PED-user label.Some counterpoints before they inevitably come up:
-Alex Rodriguez was reported to have used Primobalan, a PED, and he subsequently admitted to using it along with his cousin during workouts.
-Barry Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used PEDs, claiming that he was misled by his personal trainer.
-Sammy Sosa should be under the same level of suspicion as David Ortiz. The only test that Sosa ever failed was the survey test, no one knows what he tested positive for, there has never been any other evidence to suggest that he used PEDs, and there has never been an admission on his part.”
Petfoodfella… thanks for article… just for that reason I hope Murph gets in…( he deserves it)
Bonds would have already been 1st ballot without PEDs. Cl3mens too. Such dummies.
Kent should be in as a prolific offensive player for his position.
None of the others really merit much consideration IMO.
I hope Kent gets in he was my favorite firstbasemen
Kent should get in. Most Home Runs by a Second Basemen, second most Runs Batted In. Won an MVP, 4 Silver Sluggers, 5 time All Star.
If we want to talk about eras, Mattingly and Murphy played on a much more even playing field than Kent as they played in a “cleaner” era while Kent put up his numbers as a “clean” player during the steroid era
For a game that values the statistics more than all the others has a completely flawed system.
If the playing surface doesn’t even have a uniform size, how can you even validate players statistics as equal?
Did you know Cooperstown is also the location for the Physics University of New York?
It’s really quite small.
A part of me wishes that Bonds and Clemens would get in just so that I don’t have to listen to fans whine about it anymore. Baseball fans are obnoxious as it is with the whole “Dodgers are ruining baseball” bs.
Actually, they are all deserving! It’s been almost 30 years since the steroid era and each of those players who supposedly took them we’re good enough on their own to be a Hall of Famer so let’s get over this weird reluctance when you consider that guys in the old days took uppers, and that it wasn’t known or factored into their Hall of Fame candidacy.
It’s a museum. Should PED use keep anybody out? Should Bob Gibson be kicked out because the mound was too high? What about juiced baseballs inflating offensive stats. Should we kick out EVERYONE that played before 1947 because they were only playing against the best white guys? How about spitballers. Bonds and Clemens were the best of their generation. Let them in. There’s always something
For the Hall of Fame, let’s just lower ALL the bars to the bottom of everyone who’s already in. So as long as you have stats that are better than whoever has the worst stats, as long as you cheated less than the biggest cheater, as long as your character isn’t as bad as whoever is the biggest scumbag, you’re in. What could go wrong?
How’s that working out in politics? Hmm?
Yeah, those arguments make a whole lot of sense.
Before any known roid user, or before anyone we know things about now that aren’t up to standards gets in, the conversation starts and ends at Pete Rose.
Whatever he did as a manager, wasn’t connected to his days as a player. Let him in as a player, with an asterisk, but omit everything about his managerial side.
(And yes, I know he hailed from the ears of player managers who were featured in the lineups sometimes)
Well, he’s not on Ted’s top 20 list, and his lifetime OPS+ is 118.
His OPS from age 40 on is 100 points lower than Carlton Fisk.
One MVP award in his 24 years and then his team lost in the playoffs.
He played a long time and “compiled” statistics but he really wasn’t all that great of a player. Actually quite overrated.
I mean, Harold Baines has a higher OPS+ than Pete Rose.
Keith Hernandez deserves consideration as much as any of these guys.
Alfred Keith Hernandez is a hof player imo he is very very underrated he won 2 ws was the glue that kept the 86 Mets gang together talk about a team of party animals lol and I put the 86 Mets and 85 Chicago Bears in same category simply the best teams in one season (in my lifetime) in any league so dominant it’s almost criminal that those teams only won ring and not several. Both teams moreso DA BEARS had the entire country captivated by there play on the field and play off the field. Great times lol
“One of the first pieces of the Winter Meetings schedule is also one of its most important, as a committee of former players, executives, and media members will convene to vote on the Hall of Fame candidacies of this year’s slate of Eras Committee nominees.”
Well, it’s not at all important to people like me, who don’t take the HOF seriously anymore.
goob: But that’s just your opinion. It’s not reflective of the industry as a whole.
People have opinions. “Industry” isn’t a person.
goob: Duh. Industry is a collective term for a group of people working within it.
The reason I responded to you in the first place, was because I made it clear that I was speaking for myself. (And FYI: I’m not alone.) I did not assert anything about whatever popular opinion is on the matter.
You said, “But that’s just your opinion”. Gosh, really? Duh.
goob: Fair enough if you say so.
But “Well, it’s not at all important to people like me, who don’t take the HOF seriously anymore” sure seemed like you were attempting to speak for a group of people, not just yourself.
I said, “for people like me.” That’s called a qualifier. I suggested that there are people who feel like I do – because there are other people who feel the same.
So yes, to that extent, I was speaking for both myself and like-minded people.
So what?
So my original point that it’s just your opinion.
PED era players should get in. It is nearly every player from my youth that were great to watch while playing against many many other players that were using substances. Baseball was dead after the ’94 strike. I know I didn’t watch as much at least, then you get McGwire and Sosa racing toward 61 in ’98. No one doubted they were bulked up on something. Sosa weighed like 165#’s his rookie year. Everyone knew they were doing it and yet they revived interest back in the game that had not been there for years. The league knew, the teams knew, the players knew, the fans knew. If the HOF wants to section off anyone that was suspected of use after baseball was rescued by the same juicers then so be it. I may be alone in this, but baseball was fun to watch back then. It makes me wonder how many taters Judge or Ohtani would smack in a season if they were on the juicey juice.