We've already talked about the best move of the offseason this evening, so now let's turn the page and discuss the worst move of the winter. Here are some candidates…
- Dodgers sign Jamey Carroll to a two-year, $3.85MM contract.
- Mets sign Alex Cora to a one-year, $2MM contract.
- Adam LaRoche declines a two-year, $17MM offer from the Giants.
- Astros sign Brandon Lyon to a three-year, $15MM contract.
- Giants re-sign Bengie Molina to a one-year, $4.5MM contract.
There are plenty of more bad moves out there, but which one is the biggest head scratcher?
Jason Kendall
I’m going to take Brandon Lyon on this one.
Musch worse than Molina.
Worst move of the offseason, hands down: ASTROS EXTENSION OF ED WADE!!
Worst Move of the Offseason: Johnny Damon turning down the 2/14 offer from the Yankees.
Not the worst when he got a 1 year deal for over 7 mil. If he wants a bigger salary next year he has to go with a 1-year deal. Comerica Park isn’t where to try-out though. Maybe he just wants to help another team win for once.
Or the Yankees for even going that high. They should have offered him arbitration. With his ego, he would have probably declined it.
Kendall and I-Rod would have to share any such honor.
Adam LaRoache……what a tool !
Yeah, he set himself up to be back on the market alongside Derrek Lee, Carlos Peña, Lance Berkman, and Paul Konerko (not to mention Adamn Dunn). That won’t help his ca$e.
thats not true at all, he avoided next offseasons market
What I remember is him signing for 1 yr and a mutual option – far from a guaranteed 2nd year – hence the comment.
He would’ve avoided next year’s market if he took the Giants’s offer too. As it is, he might not avoid next year’s market and is going to get payed way less.
Yeah, but he would have been playing in San Francisco. Who wants that?
LaRoche obviously made his decisions for reasons other than money.
Exactly. Oh, what the dry desert air can do…
For example, it made Eric Byrnes 30MM richer.
Exactly. Oh, what the dry desert air can do…
For example, it made Eric Byrnes 30MM richer.
San Francisco is one of the worlds great cities. With his contract the giants were going to pay him he could have afforded Bay Area real estate. Though on vacation once in san Fransisco as beautiful as the city was I went to candlestick park, it was like getting out of my car an walking into a freezing hell. The tempature must have dropped 40 degrees and the wind cut thru you to the point no matter what you did or what you wore it was cold.Willie Mays, McCovey, marichal they all deserved better.
and that is why Candlestick is no longer the Giants ballpark. AT&T is one of the best stadiums in the bigs, and San Francisco is inarguably one of the best major league cities to live in
San Fransisco is as beautiful as any of the great cities in europe, and I like it better then Manhattan.
Jason marquis for 15million has to be up their but brandon Lyon for 3/15 is by far the worst.
1) Mets fail to actually improve the team and 2) Tigers replace Granderson and E. Jackson with Damon, A. Jackson, and Scherzer
1) fail
Granderson and E. Jackson were on the decline while picking up Damon gives the Tigers a steady bat at the top of the lineup and A. Jackson and Scherzer are up-and-coming stars. So I have to disagree with you on your number 2 but you number 1 is absolutly correct
Granderson posted a BABIP of .275 last year, WAY under his career average (.320). I’d be surprised if he didn’t at least get back to his 2008 numbers. His walk and strikeout numbers weren’t much different from his career averages, and while he won’t get 25 triples again, his power is still there. He’s still a very good player and will be significantly better than Damon (who is far more likely to be declining) and Jackson (who is still a question mark and might be no more than a soft hitting/solid fielding CF).
I hate when people throw in some stupid stat like BABIP or WAR or VORP. Thats when people look way to far into things and Jackson is their top prospect so I think he is anything but a question mark.
Austin Jackson wasnt our best prospect, that was Jesus Montero. Jackson isnt that good, he barely hit .300, has a bad OBP, Ks alot, and only hit 4 hrs. I think the fact he was a Yankee he was overvalued.
I’m not talking about the Yankees. I’m talking about the Tigers
I hate when people criticize stats they dont understand.
But yay lets focus on AVG, W/L, etc.
I understand WAR, BABIP, FIP, VORP, etc. I just happen to think they’re primarily stats for fantasy owners that don’t mean a whole lot in real, live baseball.
Well, I guess that just makes you wrong. How many fantasy baseball leagues do you know that use WAR?
To quote Edwin Starr, “WAR, what is good for?”
I know no leagues that use WAR. However, I know an awful lot of fantasy owners that use WAR, VORP, FIP, etc. etc. to evaluate players and slot them in their draft. In fact, as far as I can tell, that is their main purpose–well, that and for writers and analysts to feel important by throwing them around in any discussion, and agents to use to try to justify their exorbitant salary demands.
Yet we’re supposed to just go with stats like AVG and wins?!
Baseball is all about stats. From the simplest like batting average to the more complex like WAR. “Real, live” talent is reflected in those stats. A lot of things in the “real world” has some sort of a fundamental correlation.
The sad part is the total denial of these stats because they don’t seem to fit the “ideal” perception of a sport. For instance, there’s more to pitching than just throwing a ball as fast as possible. Clearly, the guys who pitch well use movement, deception, location and speed. However, luck plays a large part as well. A lot of these newer stats try to eliminate the “luck” factor that plays a huge part in simpler stats like wins and average.
I’m not in total denial of these advanced metrics stats. They can play a role in evaluating player’s performances. So can old, tired stats like BA, ERA, and yes, W/L %. And since luck is a part of baseball, as it is in any other sport, why try to eliminate it? WAR is one of those stats that I think has limited application, because what it purports to measure is inherently subject to many other factors.
It purports to measure the added value in wins to a team by replacing one player with another. Yet adding that player to any given team, the number of wins the team would actually record would still depend on the performance of everybody else around that one player, and would still be affected by just plain, old luck–good or bad. So to me, WAR has a limited usefulness, like a number of these other stats. That doesn’t mean I would throw them all out. UZR and UZR-150, for instance, are helpful in comparing fielders and yield information that straight fielding % doesn’t. Neither would I throw out actual W/L and BA. They still count for something in the real world.
You try to eliminate luck because you’re seeking to learn something about the actual talent level of the player. Saber stats don’t eliminate luck because they don’t like it or they don’t think it exists, it’s just that if you include a player’s luck in how you view them, you’re not getting an accurate representation of their ability. This is particularly important if you hope to use the information to make predictions about the player going forward.
As for your analysis of WAR — you clearly have a skewed understanding of either how it’s used or what it’s supposed to measure (possibly both), because your spiel about it didn’t make a whole lot of sense.
I think I understand what WAR is. The concept is supposedly that, if you had this player who has a WAR of 4, let’s say, and you could plug him into your lineup in place of the elusive statistically average player, your team ought to win 4 more games over the course of a season. But since there is no statistically average player, it’s used primarily as a way of comparing one player to another–just the way BA, HR, RBI, and W/L are used to compare one player to another. So theoretically, if you replace a player with a WAR of 1 with a player with a WAR of 4, your team ought to win 3 more games. But in fact, even if you could trade your player with a WAR of 1 even up for a player with a WAR of 4, the games would still have to be played, and luck would remain just as much a part of the equation as ever, so no one ever really knows how much the team’s outcome would be affected; they just think they do. Plus, since relatively few players are perfectly consistent from year to year, their value can change dramatically from one season to the next. Like I said, I don’t totally discount these stats, I just don’t think they’re as accurate a measure or as important as the weight some people now give them. That’s all.
You try to eliminate luck because you’re seeking to learn something about the actual talent level of the player. Saber stats don’t eliminate luck because they don’t like it or they don’t think it exists, it’s just that if you include a player’s luck in how you view them, you’re not getting an accurate representation of their ability. This is particularly important if you hope to use the information to make predictions about the player going forward.
As for your analysis of WAR — you clearly have a skewed understanding of either how it’s used or what it’s supposed to measure (possibly both), because your spiel about it didn’t make a whole lot of sense.
“Granderson and E. Jackson were on the decline”
Jackson posted the best year of his career. (He didn’t have a great 2nd half but that hardly counts as a “decline”)
Granderson posted a 3+ WAR year, is young and has a reasonable contract.
“while picking up Damon gives the Tigers a steady bat at the top of the lineup”
You’ve never seen the guy field, have you? Plus, the Tigers could have shaved off at least 3 million from what they offered. The other competition who even considered Damon wanted to offer him deferred money.
“A. Jackson and Scherzer are up-and-coming stars”
Ajax has never had a major league AB; yet, he’s already an “up-and-coming star”? How many times have we’ve seen these prospects fizz out? Let’s see… a speedy OFer who was once considered a five tool player… Carlos Gomez, anyone?
I like Scherzer. I think the Dbacks were wrong in giving him up but I wonder if there are injury concerns and whether he’ll last as a starter.
Jackson is an up-and-coming star because he is their top prospect. And if you REALLY think about it, Granderson wasn’t THAT good. His defense was becoming suspect and besides hitting 30 HR, which most of them were solo, he couldn’t really do much else. He was horrible in the clutch, struck out way too much, couldn’t hit lefties, didn’t steal many bases, didn’t walk much and couldn’t hit for any average. But for some odd reason he was a fan favorite
Couldn’t hit lefties is a huge understand… he had an under .600 OPS against them. Basically, when a lefty was throwing the ball, he turned into Jose Vidro.
I think you are the only person that knows anything rdccdr801. These people just cant admit that Granderson is extremely overrated
Or perhaps you’re just too stubborn realize you’re wrong?
Clearly you don’t have an understanding of statistics behind the highly flawed “average”, “strikeouts” (By the way, have you seen Ajax’s minor league totals?) and “clutch” (Which again, has a yearly sample bias) terms.
Career OPS:
Damon – .794
Granderson – .828
Ajax – .766 (Minor leagues, which makes it a whole lot worse)
That’s really the simplest way to put it. I don’t have to bring up Damon’s putrid defensive numbers, do I?
A top prospect is still a prospect — not an “up-and-coming star”. Those two terms are not the same. Again, he hasn’t had even ONE major league AB. For every top prospect that does become a “star” I can list 10 more that didn’t live up to the hype.
“His defense was becoming suspect and besides hitting 30 HR, which most of them were solo, he couldn’t really do much else. He was horrible in the clutch, struck out way too much, couldn’t hit lefties, didn’t steal many bases, didn’t walk much and couldn’t hit for any average.”
Suspect defense?! Now I know you’ve never watched Damon field before.
Granderson’s career UZR/150 is above average; he also posted a positive rating last season.
2009, Granderson hit with a .783 OPS with RISP
2008, he hit .909 with RISP
The “clutch” thing is NONSENSE. Lord knows how many times that was brought up about Arod until he shut everyone up during the postseason.
Yes, he doesn’t hit lefties well. However, he posted a decent season against lefties in 2008. His right handed OPS largely makes up for the left handed OPS.
Yes, he isn’t perfect; but, you’re supposed to compare him to the guy who is replacing him. Ajax minor league OPS is .766.
Not only will Damon’s hitting regress without the short right field porch, his defensive will simply make you shutter.
I have another point for you strikethree. How many pitches have Stephen Strasburg or Aroldis Chapman thrown in the major leagues? But they are still considered up-and-coming stars
I have another point for you strikethree. How many pitches have Stephen Strasburg or Aroldis Chapman thrown in the major leagues? But they are still considered up-and-coming stars
No they’re not–they’re considered “prospects.”
Guys like Ben Zobrist, Jayson Werth etc. are “up-and-coming stars.”
No they’re not–they’re considered “prospects.”
Guys like Ben Zobrist, Jayson Werth etc. are “up-and-coming stars.”
First of all… Ajax is no where near projected in the same light.
Second, only Strasburg is hyped to be as close to a sure thing as possible. Even so, he is still a prospect.
They are all prospects. However, not all prospects are projected to put up the same level of talent.
Granderson ?????? on the decline you are out of your mind. Now Johnny Damon he is on the decline
Whoever doesn’t admit that Granderson is on the decline is obviously nieve. If you REALLY think about it, he isn’t that good. His defense was becoming suspect and besides hitting 30 HR, which most of them were solo, he couldn’t really do much else. He was horrible in the clutch, struck out way too much, couldn’t hit lefties, didn’t steal many bases, didn’t walk much and couldn’t hit for any average
Wow dude did Granderson do something to you or are you just downplaying him because the Tigers traded him away. Look at Granderson’s career
2006 Home – .249 AVG, .326 OBP, .389 SLG, .715 OPS, 7 HR, 33 RBI
2006 Away – .271 AVG, .343 OBP, .485 SLG, .828 OPS, 12 HR, 35 RBI
2007 Home – .286 AVG, .351 OBP, .512 SLG, .863 OPS, 10 HR, 36 RBI
2007 Away – .318 AVG, .370 OBP, .592 SLG, .962 OPS, 13 HR, 38 RBI
2008 Home – .277 AVG, .361 OBP, .493 SLG, .854 OPS, 11 HR, 35 RBI
2008 Away – .283 AVG, .368 OBP, .495 SLG, .863 OPS, 11 HR, 31 RBI
2009 Home – .230 AVG, .307 OBP, .388 SLG, .695 OPS, 10 HR, 34 RBI
2009 Away – .267 AVG, .345 OBP, .516 SLG, .861 OPS, 20 HR, 37 RBI
Career
Home – .260 AVG, .336 OBP, .445 SLG, .781 OPS, 38 HR, 138 RBI
Away – .284 AVG, 356 OBP, .522 SLG, 878 OPS, 56 HR, 141 RBI
Whatever was the issue in Comerica and his hitting style, the guy is a way, way better player outside of Comerica Park and that cannot even be argued as above shows. He gains in his career away from Comerica
+24 points on his AVG
+20 points on his OBP
+77 points on his SLG
+97 points on his OPS
He is 29 years of age and you claim he is on the decline, you talk about his solo HR’s but he was a leadoff hitter in Detroit, a role that he may never have been suited for because of his strikeouts, in New York he will be in the middle of the batting order.
As someone else mentioned above his batting average on balls in play was well below his career norms, .275 last season vs .320 for his career, and below the league average of .299, he will bounce back big time next season as that goes back to normal for him.
You want to talk about bad defense, look at Johnny Damon playing the outfield in Comerica, you haven’t seen anything yet with all the 1st to 3rd and Home that will be taking place on balls hit out there to him this season.
As a left fielder in Yankee Stadium Damon was dreadful on defense
Damon’s Arm -4.2 runs below average vs -0.6 runs below average for Granderson
Damon’s Range -3.7 runs below average vs 1.4 runs above average for Granderson
Damon’s UZR -9.2 runs below average vs 1.6 runs above average for Granderson
Those numbers were accumulated in
1117 innings for Damon last season
1384 innings for Granderson last season
You haven’t seen really bad defense yet, but will this year with a 36 year old Damon, enjoy it.
All I can say is thanks Detroit for Curtis Granderson, we’ll take him in New York at 29 years of age, coming off a down season, coming to a hitters park and a very good lineup.
Granderson will bounce back big time and could easily put up lines of
.265 – .270 AVG, 30+ HR, 85-90+ RBI, 160+ H, 32+ 2B, 18+ SB in the middle of the majors best offence
Considering his career numbers away from Comerica Park as a player.
Wow dude did Granderson do something to you or are you just downplaying him because the Tigers traded him away. Look at Granderson’s career
2006 Home – .249 AVG, .326 OBP, .389 SLG, .715 OPS, 7 HR, 33 RBI
2006 Away – .271 AVG, .343 OBP, .485 SLG, .828 OPS, 12 HR, 35 RBI
2007 Home – .286 AVG, .351 OBP, .512 SLG, .863 OPS, 10 HR, 36 RBI
2007 Away – .318 AVG, .370 OBP, .592 SLG, .962 OPS, 13 HR, 38 RBI
2008 Home – .277 AVG, .361 OBP, .493 SLG, .854 OPS, 11 HR, 35 RBI
2008 Away – .283 AVG, .368 OBP, .495 SLG, .863 OPS, 11 HR, 31 RBI
2009 Home – .230 AVG, .307 OBP, .388 SLG, .695 OPS, 10 HR, 34 RBI
2009 Away – .267 AVG, .345 OBP, .516 SLG, .861 OPS, 20 HR, 37 RBI
Career
Home – .260 AVG, .336 OBP, .445 SLG, .781 OPS, 38 HR, 138 RBI
Away – .284 AVG, 356 OBP, .522 SLG, 878 OPS, 56 HR, 141 RBI
Whatever was the issue in Comerica and his hitting style, the guy is a way, way better player outside of Comerica Park and that cannot even be argued as above shows. He gains in his career away from Comerica
+24 points on his AVG
+20 points on his OBP
+77 points on his SLG
+97 points on his OPS
He is 29 years of age and you claim he is on the decline, you talk about his solo HR’s but he was a leadoff hitter in Detroit, a role that he may never have been suited for because of his strikeouts, in New York he will be in the middle of the batting order.
As someone else mentioned above his batting average on balls in play was well below his career norms, .275 last season vs .320 for his career, and below the league average of .299, he will bounce back big time next season as that goes back to normal for him.
You want to talk about bad defense, look at Johnny Damon playing the outfield in Comerica, you haven’t seen anything yet with all the 1st to 3rd and Home that will be taking place on balls hit out there to him this season.
As a left fielder in Yankee Stadium Damon was dreadful on defense
Damon’s Arm -4.2 runs below average vs -0.6 runs below average for Granderson
Damon’s Range -3.7 runs below average vs 1.4 runs above average for Granderson
Damon’s UZR -9.2 runs below average vs 1.6 runs above average for Granderson
Those numbers were accumulated in
1117 innings for Damon last season
1384 innings for Granderson last season
You haven’t seen really bad defense yet, but will this year with a 36 year old Damon, enjoy it.
All I can say is thanks Detroit for Curtis Granderson, we’ll take him in New York at 29 years of age, coming off a down season, coming to a hitters park and a very good lineup.
Granderson will bounce back big time and could easily put up lines of
.265 – .270 AVG, 30+ HR, 85-90+ RBI, 160+ H, 32+ 2B, 18+ SB in the middle of the majors best offence
Considering his career numbers away from Comerica Park as a player.
tl;dr
Nieve like Fernando Nieve or do you mean naive?
Advanced metrics and English language = looking too far into things
You must come from that Dusty Baker school of not wanting to clog up them there bases w/high OBP guys, too.
Nieve like Fernando Nieve or do you mean naive?
Advanced metrics and English language = looking too far into things
How is the fact they were solo homers relevant? He hit lead-off almost the entire year! With the Yankees he’ll be hitting near the middle of one of the greatest OBP teams ever assembled. His RsBI are going way up this season.
Whoever doesn’t admit that Granderson is on the decline is obviously nieve. If you REALLY think about it, he isn’t that good. His defense was becoming suspect and besides hitting 30 HR, which most of them were solo, he couldn’t really do much else. He was horrible in the clutch, struck out way too much, couldn’t hit lefties, didn’t steal many bases, didn’t walk much and couldn’t hit for any average
Jason Kendall, Ivan Rodriguez and Brandon Lyon were pretty bad deals.
With Jesus Flores’s return from injury uncertain, and with prospect Derek Norris perhaps 2 years away, Rodriguez’s deal is better than folks immediately think it is. The pitching staff is pretty excited to have him calling games, and the other options at catcher available to the Nats were not great. The Nats had several pitchers turn down better money to avoid the Nats for other teams (Chan Ho Park, Jon Garland, for instance). They had to pay a premium for Rodriguez and Marquis, had to take a chance on C-M Wang when others wouldn’t.
The salaries they paid, though, were bargains compared to recent years, and especially compared to the contracts they lost. The Nats are better off giving $3M to Ivan Rodriguez than $5M to Dmitri Young. They are better off giving $7.5M each year to Jason Marquis than to give $8M to Austin Kearns. They are better of gambling $2M on C-M Wang than throwing away $4M to Daniel Cabrera.
The Nats tried to give Aroldis Chapman $25M, and you all would have said it makes no sense for the Nationals to spend that kind of money. However, none of you seem bothered by the Reds giving Chapman $30M and landing him. The Nats are trying to dig out of the hole to become a better team and a more preferred destination for free agents. Let’s see if their attempts to improve change your opinions at least somewhat by next spring.
I see a number of bad moves out there this year…as in most offseasons. But the one I keep going back to is LaRoche turning down the offer from the Giants. He shouldn’t be offered more than $4M to play for anyone…and shouldn’t be offered more than a 1yr deal. Hell after Branyans big year he only got a 1yr $2M deal. LaRoche is either getting REALLY bad advise or is just clueless…or both. Still can’t get over this one!
edit: ..doublepost..
Quite obviously its LaRoche. He lost out in over 15 Million Dollars, and won’t be getting anything in spite of that (ie the teams atleast get some production for their gaffes)
The Molina move was horrible. Not only does he suck, the Giants blocked one of the top prospects in all of baseball.
No way! The Molina move shouldn’t even be on this list!
Molina was second on the team in HRs and RBIs last year (as sad as that may be). He’s already familiar with the pitching staff, and they are all comfortable with him. To me his game calling was a big part of the success of the pitching staff had and to bring him back on a one-year deal on their terms as a transition to Posey I thought was an excellent move.
Besides Posey’s bat may be ready, but he still needs some work behind the dish. And the Molina move doesn’t necessarily preclude him from joining the roster sometime mid-season or even out of spring training if he looks good.
Agreed and worst case scenerio is that Huff doesn`t hit so you move Molina to first and bring up Posey.
I disagree…Posey still needs to learn how to call a game. He will be in Fresno learning from Steve Decker, who IMO is being groomed to be the next manager of the Giants. Plus Molina is coming off a career year in HR’s and luckily WON’T be hitting cleanup.
He’s carrying a sub-.300 OBP. I don’t care if they guy came for free, bringing him in was a bad move. If they wanted a place-holder at catcher, Zaun could have actually contributed to the offense.
So the OBP is the only important stat a catcher can bring? How about his knowledge of the pitching staff? How about his ability to mentor Posey? How about his high percentage of caught stealing?
His HR numbers in SF have been the best of his career.
There’s more to baseball than OBP.
Oh and I didn’t even mention the ridiculous contracts that Pudge and other catchers got.
You think Decker is going to be the next manager? What about Wotus? They almost gave him the job before signing Bochy.
I don’t think Wotus will get the chance..
If he doesn’t get it from us he’ll gt it from someone else.
I respectfully disagree as well. He is not blocking Posey … Posey played all nine positions in college and will be taking infield at 1B this spring. If he makes the team or is called up later, he will get his AB’s. Molina texted him after the signing and said “I told him I’m not here to take his spot.” Also the Giants pitching staff literally broke out in applause when they learned he had signed. They were thrilled. And the Giants got him for a little over half his projected arb number (plus incentives).
So, my vote for the worst moves: (1) Sheets – huge risk even though I rarely question a one-year deal; (2) the McCourt divorce; and (3) Bernie Madoff.
And thank you Adam.
Again, sub-.300 OBP.
Fair enough. Based on that criterion, I would then propose that the Pudge deal bumps Molina’s as the worst (for catchers, at least).
2009:
Pudge: .249/.280/.384 10HR
Bengie: .265/.285/.442 20HR
But Bengie is being retained to catch his familiar staff – that has to be worth a few extra $$.
not to mention Bengie’s contract is one less year
OBP isn’t the only stat to look at. He is hitting 6th or 7th with 20 HRs how can that be a bad thing? I’d rather have Molina’s RBIs and HRs than rely on Zaun to get on base that low in the order maybe lower and hope for an anemic offense to knock him in. There wasn’t a better offensive catcher available on the market.
Like they said Molina is on a 1 year deal
Had a .442 SLG
The staff loves Molina
and Posey isn’t ready
If you think signing Molina was a bad move, you should have seen Posey play in the upper minors. He was clueless against good pitching and doesn’t call anywhere near as good of a game as Molina. There are much worse moves than re-signing your second best hitter to a 1-year cheap deal…
if you sign jamey carroll to anything more than a minor league deal then you know you’ve made without a doubt the worst move of the offseason
Seriously Tony? The guy has a career OBP of .351 and he’s fairly versatile. It’s not like they gave the guy 4/66.
Carroll will get 100 starts, is above average at 2B and 3B, is career .354 hitter, is in the top players every year in pitches per AB, is a great clubhouse guy and multiople teams offered 2 years. Clearly Tony, you don;t have a clue.
Career .354 pinch hitter
Try .273.
The main criticism is mis-allocation of limited resources. Also, why didn’t Ned hold off to see how he might have been able to target actual needs? Carrol will probably help the team but maybe that money could have been spent more wisely.He’s a nice guy, versatile etc …..BUT In the big picture of this teams limited resources and needs ,e.g. pitching depth, this was not a good move.
Try .273.
The main criticism is mis-allocation of limited resources. Also, why didn’t Ned hold off to see how he might have been able to target actual needs? Carrol will probably help the team but maybe that money could have been spent more wisely.He’s a nice guy, versatile etc …..BUT In the big picture of this teams limited resources and needs ,e.g. pitching depth, this was not a good move.
carrol hit .277 with 2 homeruns
“oh yeah this guy will make an impact lets sign him to a multimillion dollar deal in the beginning of the offseason!”
shut up the dodgers couldve got felipe lopez for the same price but im not gonna worry this is why the dodgers are gonna finish 3rd place in the NL west
carrol hit .277 with 2 homeruns
“oh yeah this guy will make an impact lets sign him to a multimillion dollar deal in the beginning of the offseason!”
shut up the dodgers couldve got felipe lopez for the same price but im not gonna worry this is why the dodgers are gonna finish 3rd place in the NL west
Pudge Rodriguez to the Nationals. Giving up picks and that much money for a guy who can barely hit anymore and is only average defensively at this point in his career… just plain stupid.
To be fair, they didn’t give up any picks. I’m pretty sure he was a Type B free agent, which means his former team got awarded a pick in the compensatory round, not that the Nats had to surrender a pick. Now that I think about it, I don’t think Pudge was even offered arb.
Ah, I thought he was a type A. But yes he was definitely offered arbitration and declined. Even if they didn’t give up picks, it was still a huge overpay.
See my response above on Rodriguez and the Nats’ need to overpay to get anybody as a 103-loss team, especially in the context of the bad contracts they were replacing.
You guys are aiming WAYYYYY too low.
How about dealing Max Scherzer for E. Jackson and I. Kennedy? Both D’backs acquistions will be HAH-uge busts, and Scherzer has Nolan-esque potential. Enormously bad deal by the poorly run D-backs….
Nolan-esque? Think you’re overrating him just a little bit?
Are we referring to Nolan Ryan? Get real. He was a top pitcher in the game, I doubt scherzer will match that type of success.
I agree with you completley. Scherzer has potential while Jackson was declining at the end of last year and Kennedy has injury history
Ryan – Please tell me you were referring to Gary Nolan, not that Nolan Ryan guy.
I completely disagree, Jackson had a solid 08 in the AL East and a good 09 in AL Central, I think he’s going to dominate the NL West.
He only had a good first half of ’09.
He was about as useful as Brandon Inge after the ASB.
He was good throughout July, about league average in August and he had a bad September. Inge was horrific the entire second half. Also, Jackson gotten consistently better over the last 3 years, moving up from a 5+ ERA in 160 innings in 07 to a 3.7 ERA in over 200 innings last year (not to mention a 1.25 WHIP) and he’s only 26 years old and moving to a relatively weak division… I think the DBack fans are going to be pleasantly surprised by what they get out of Jackson.
Never compare any pitcher to Nolan Ryan.
Jason Bay
John Lackey
Ben Sheets (Winner!)
Disagree on Sheets–why is he a bad move?
As take a 1-year gamble on him. He’s an ace if he’s healthy–that’s a big “if,” though, which explains why he only received $10mil (versus, say, the $20mil+ Lackey received from the Red Sox).
If he doesn’t pan out then the As are out half of what a normal SP1 costs…if he does pan out the As can either contend or trade Sheets for a top prospect (similar to Holliday-for-Wallace). This is a risky but solid deal.
I just don’t think you should give a guy who missed all of last year, that much guaranteed money.
Especially after he tried to trick teams into signing him to a guaranteed contract last year when he was injured.
I don’t consider him an ace either
from 2006-2009
he’s only had one year with a below 3.80 ERA (although he was hurt one of those years, constant injuries aren’t a good characteristic of an ace either)
I think that he’s more of a second starter… with potential to be an ace; he’s a little better than an AJ Burnett type.
And technically, if things work out; he’ll also earn 2 million more in incentives.
and, if they don’t trade him, it’s in his contract that “club will not offer arbitration if Sheets is Type A free agent after 2010”
Didn’t turn out…
Disagree on Sheets–why is he a bad move?
As take a 1-year gamble on him. He’s an ace if he’s healthy–that’s a big “if,” though, which explains why he only received $10mil (versus, say, the $20mil+ Lackey received from the Red Sox).
If he doesn’t pan out then the As are out half of what a normal SP1 costs…if he does pan out the As can either contend or trade Sheets for a top prospect (similar to Holliday-for-Wallace). This is a risky but solid deal.
Bengie Molina, 1 year at 4.5mil a bad deal??? I’d call it one of the best deals. The Giants pitchers love him and his BA with RISP is off the charts. He’s the best catcher in SF history. Yes he has a downside, slow as molasses and not so good with sliders in the dirt anymore but his upside far outweighs especially if the G’s can trade him at midseason if Posey is ready.
LaRoche declining the Giants offer… come on
I would never hope injury upon someone, but i think LaRoche is an exception, what a duechebag. He doesnt even deserve 17mil or even a 3 year deal…forget him, i hope Huff does work this year for the Gmen
That’s just vile to wish injury on anybody. He misplayed his hand, not beat up your kid.
I wouldnt play 4 the Giants either i dont blame him 4 turning that deal down…. And LaRoche is better then Huff good luck with him haha
Nope, you wouldn’t.
Brian Sabean believing Bengie Molina and his sub .300 obp is a valuable offensive piece. The Nationals shelling out 7 mil per year for a 5th starter (although understandable with their rotation depth). LaRoche turing down more money (annually and in length) to sign with the D-Backs. Johnny Damon holding out to sign for a million more to play in a park where his value will undoubtedly plummet.
As for Alex Cora, Jamey Carrol, etc; anointing a signing for 2 mil or less per year as the worst deal of the offseason is ridiculous. No could could know a guy like Fellipe Lopez goes for next to nothing this late in the offseason. 2 million will cripple no clubs in the majors and a 7 year / 100+ million deal like Matt Holliday’s is infinitely more risky.
what about valverde…..Maybe not the worst, but in the running. he is a very good closer, but no one else was going after him and the tigers had to give up their first round draft pick….Most definitly not a greta move….. I am also a HUGE cards fan, but the Holliday reeks pretty badly
Jason Bay
Randy Wolf
Tim Hudson
Bengie Molina was one of the best signings. The Giants pitchers love him and his BA with RISP is off the charts. Yes he’s the slowest runner in MLB but he can be traded at midseason when Posey is really ready. He’s the best catcher in SF history and he plays with heart.
I do want to add, while I think those deals are bad…the three deals for catchers are the worst molina, kendall and pudge…I just threw those out as discussion points
LaRoche without a doubt. I don’t know what the Giants were thinking, but they were lucky that bum didn’t accept that deal. He is absolutely insane if he still thinks that he is worth more than the 8.5 he would get annually. Man, I can’t stand that guy.
Mets sign Alex Cora – 1 Year 2 Million. This deal looks really bad in comparison to Felipe Lopez 1/1.75 mil deal. I don’t care if Alex Cora has the leadership skills of George Washington and Felipe Lopez is a worse teammate than Benedict Arnold. Lopez can actually play, and play at a good level. Alex Cora cannot play the game of baseball. Disagree with you danks50, this was a terrible move when the deal was inked. Alex Cora is a player who isn’t worth the league minimum, let alone 2 million dollars.
But as bad as that move was it doesn’t top Omar’s less talked about but even more painfully terrible move.
Mets trade for Gary Matthews JR – Speaking of guys who can’t play baseball. Amazingly the Mets are going to be paying for HIS services. Guy can’t play worth a damn lick and you know he’s going to be whining about playing time after Beltran gets back. What’s more pathetic is the fact he will be taking AB’s away from Angel Pagan who at least shown he has some game last season.
chances are once beltran is back, he is gone. no way does mathews take ABs away from pagan…next.
Can’t agree on GMJ being the worst move of the offseason simply because the Mets are only paying him $1.5M over 2 years. I’ve heard of bench players making more than that.
This is exactly why its the worst move of the offseason.
GMJ isn’t worth the league minimum. He’s literally been worse than major league replacement level the past few years. The fact the Mets are paying ANYTHING for his services means they are overpaying him.
He hurts this team in more ways than one. He isn’t even a good bench player, let alone a guy who should be getting any kind of playing time.
Not to mention not only are they paying for his services, they actually traded away a serviceable reliever to get him. Brian Stokes is completely average but they could have traded him for some positive asset for their team, like a PTBNL rather than Gary Matthews Jr.
Lets chill out here the move wasn’t as bad as your making it out to be. Stokes is nothing special I don’t even thinks he qualifys for average he probably had 45 good innings in two years pitching for the mets. He walks to many people and his fastball is as straight as can be. GMJ is just a replacement until Beltran gets back and hes only getting paid somthing like 1.3 or 1.4 MM over 2 years then its to the bench. You never know maybe you catch lighting in a bottle for a month or two with this guy or maybe he sucks in which case you have pagan. I’m not saying its a good trade, but saying its the worst move of the offseason is kind of stupid.
Seriously?!? You’re gonna call Cora or Sarge to the Mets the worst deal of the offseason? They’re on the team for a year and comprise 2% of the Mets payroll. The Mets didn’t have to do anything to get better this offseason other than heal. I’m not overjoyed at the roster (questions in the rotation and 1st base are not a recipe for success) but I’m subscribing to the ‘Mets have a plan’ theory and that they’re looking at next year’s free agent class.
As far as Felipe Lopez is concerned, I’ve seen enough me-first players in Flushing. Good riddance.
Seriously?!? You’re gonna call Cora or Sarge to the Mets the worst deal of the offseason? They’re on the team for a year and comprise 2% of the Mets payroll. The Mets didn’t have to do anything to get better this offseason other than heal. I’m not overjoyed at the roster (questions in the rotation and 1st base are not a recipe for success) but I’m subscribing to the ‘Mets have a plan’ theory and that they’re looking at next year’s free agent class.
As far as Felipe Lopez is concerned, I’ve seen enough me-first players in Flushing. Good riddance.
Cora is not there just because of his leadership but because he can field at second and short. Lopez has moved from team to team to team, hardly an expression of confidence in him as a positive clubhouse force, and is a poor fielder. If Reyes gets hurt for a long period or Castillo plays like 2008, Cora is not the answer. But, to spell Castillo once a week and late in some games and to cover Reyes once a month and for two or three days in a row if he gets sick or has a minor injury, he fits the bill a lot better than Lopez.
As for Matthews, he costs nothing by Mets standards–they ate more than he is being paid by cutting Marlon Anderson last April–and can be dumped if he fails or is no longer needed. And, Brian Stokes was much too hittable. There is no downside to this.
The worst contract is definitely Ben Sheets at $10 million. There is at least a 40% chance he’ll go down for part of the year. Even if he works out, he is not worth the risk on a small-market team’s limited payroll.
Cora is not there just because of his leadership but because he can field at second and short. Lopez has moved from team to team to team, hardly an expression of confidence in him as a positive clubhouse force, and is a poor fielder. If Reyes gets hurt for a long period or Castillo plays like 2008, Cora is not the answer. But, to spell Castillo once a week and late in some games and to cover Reyes once a month and for two or three days in a row if he gets sick or has a minor injury, he fits the bill a lot better than Lopez.
As for Matthews, he costs nothing by Mets standards–they ate more than he is being paid by cutting Marlon Anderson last April–and can be dumped if he fails or is no longer needed. And, Brian Stokes was much too hittable. There is no downside to this.
The worst contract is definitely Ben Sheets at $10 million. There is at least a 40% chance he’ll go down for part of the year. Even if he works out, he is not worth the risk on a small-market team’s limited payroll.
Mark Teahen 3/14
Mark Teahen 3/14
Mets signing Alex Cora and his .320 OBP and -7.8 UZR/150. Heck even the fangraphs dollar value which ‘overpays’ players had him at $0.3 M for last year.
Also, I still don’t get why Theo signed Lackey.
The Mets throwing $60 million at Jason Bay when they needed a #2 starting pitcher and now the Wilpons have cut the money off. That’s what I call an epic fail.
Javier Vasquez for Melky Cabrera
And Arodys Vizcaino and Mike Dunn. If you’re going to evaluate a trade at least look at it in its entirety. The Braves gained a top-10 prospect (for their system) and a live young left-handed arm with potential.
I can’t imagine they couldn’t have done better. Crappy trade.
If they could have done better, don’t you think they would have? I’m no fan of Melky, but it was a damn good package for one year of a pitcher sure to decline.
No I’m not so sure actually. It kind of seems like when Wren decides he needs to dump salary he does it pretty fast.
I imagine Vazquez having a no trade clause prohibiting trades to west coast teams limited the Braves trade partners. Otherwise I’m sure the Angels, Mariners (before the Lee trade), perhaps the Dodgers, Diamondbacks (before the Jackson trade) would have driven up the price a bit…
Right. Further, teams have to expect Braves to trade SOMEONE off that rotation…if you’re a suitor, why not wait them out?
Right. Further, teams have to expect Braves to trade SOMEONE off that rotation…if you’re a suitor, why not wait them out?
As a Yankee fan, I like the trade. While Javy almost certainly won’t be as good as last year, he’ll almost certainly be better than his first go-around in the Bronx. Plus, he’s happy to be back in New York. He didn’t seem happy in Chicago. Vizcaino might be good (in about three years), Dunn is nothing special, and Melky’s a fourth outfielder at best. The Yanks can offer Javy arbitration and if he declines, net a draft pick or two.
As a Yankee fan, I like the trade. While Javy almost certainly won’t be as good as last year, he’ll almost certainly be better than his first go-around in the Bronx. Plus, he’s happy to be back in New York. He didn’t seem happy in Chicago. Vizcaino might be good (in about three years), Dunn is nothing special, and Melky’s a fourth outfielder at best. The Yanks can offer Javy arbitration and if he declines, net a draft pick or two.
I wonder what was the next best offer for Lyon? 2 years/5 million?
Brandon Lyon is the worst move…with Jason Kendall in a close second
I’m shocked no one has mentioned Jason Marquis to the Nationals for two years, $15 million yet (unless I missed it).
I said it as like one of the first 5 posts LOL.
Lyon, who may end up having the most blown saves in the NL.
I’d say giving Pudge 2 year/6 million was a bit over the top. The argument could made for Kendall too. Why pay 3 million for him to back up Jesus Flores when Wil Nieves is a perfectly capable back up? It’d be like asking why lose a good defensive middle IF at minimum in Anderson Hernandez to pay Cora 2 million? The Mets could have gotten Cora for less than a million if Omar waited.
Brandon Lyon’s deal has to be the worse though. He got more money than Valverde from the team who lost him. And Valverde is really good. Lyon is an average set up man at best. I’d say the Cardinals over spent for Holliday. There wasn’t clear competition of a team who even offered more than the Red Sox 5 year/82.5 million. The A’s who seem to always be tight on money took a big risk on a pitcher who probably won’t even make half his starts and may be burnt out by the deadline.
gotta love all the nats hate in this topic
marquis isnt realy that bad considering he eats innings and the nats have no definate rotation behind lannan… they maybe have overpaid by a mill or 2 but when ur as bas as they are thats alot of times what it comes down to
as for I-rod for awile i didnt like the signing but when i started thinking back about pudge when he 1st came 2 the tigers its started to make more sense
pudge handled the tigers pitchers rly well and he has 2 be given alot of credit for turning around that teams staff, bondermen and nate in particuler during there WS run. you also have to consider they were a year or 2 removed from bein almost the worst team in baseball history
dont forget verlander as well not trying 2 take anything away from him but justin and pudge seemed to rly gel together
now pudge goes 2 another yet another similer team/situation like the tigers after there horrid season and has a chance to prove that he can handle an battery another pitching staff with little experience
so bash it all u want but when strasburg turns out 2 be just as good if not better than verlander and the rest of the staff turns it around people will say thats pudge doing wat he did with the tigers
When was IRod ever given credit for turning around the DET staff? You my friend need to go to baseball-reference.com and review the stats of said DET staff in the Pudge years. Yes, WS 1x, no other playoffs. No, he did not turn that staff around at all.
You should’ve referenced his experience and leadership on the Marlins, that would’ve held some weight, but no, DET does not work here.
And no, overpaid innings eater is not a good defense for Marquis. It’s one of the worst moves this offseason and that’s the reason everyone is pointing it out.
Yes, Pudge was the FA that got others going to Detroit. But he was also the cause of Alan Trammell getting fired, and dividing the clubhouse. The complaint that came after they sent him to the Yanks, was that he would not call for breaking balls with a runner on first. He didnt want a stolen base on a ball in the dirt. The other teams know this tho, and thats why pitching went south as Pudge lost zip on his throws. Also, his reputation, saves him a lot of pass ball calls. He is below average at blocking balls in the dirt. Hope he has a good season, but he is what he is.
Yes, Pudge was the FA that got others going to Detroit. But he was also the cause of Alan Trammell getting fired, and dividing the clubhouse. The complaint that came after they sent him to the Yanks, was that he would not call for breaking balls with a runner on first. He didnt want a stolen base on a ball in the dirt. The other teams know this tho, and thats why pitching went south as Pudge lost zip on his throws. Also, his reputation, saves him a lot of pass ball calls. He is below average at blocking balls in the dirt. Hope he has a good season, but he is what he is.
You should’ve referenced his WS win with a young Marlins staff. He was noted for leadership, etc. DET is not a good example at all.
btw worst move of the offseason
red sox missing out on bay and holliday! who’s there LF now again?
Ellsbury. And they added a premium defensive CF with 25HR power. I wanted him for the Braves btw…..
Not to mention that Crawford will be hitting the FA market next offseason… I’m sure Beantown is already lining up a contract offer for him.
with a .240 average…
And a respectable OBP. Jesus people, look past things like batting average and wins to judge a players value. Decent OBP + Good Power + Stellar defense at a premium position = a very good player.
Mike Cameron is a great pickup to replace Bay. Good on the Sox to let Bay walk. Holliday was a bust waiting to happen in Boston.
How about the worst 3rd baseman in baseball getting 3 yr and 14.5 mil.
Mark Teahen tops the head scratchers of 2009/10’s offseason.
Another head-scratcher is Polanco to the Phils to play 3B despite there being some clearly better options on the market.
I really don’t get why the Phils gave him that kind of money when they could have gotten someone like Beltre for the same price. Polanco’s real value always came in his defense, he made all the plays at second base. Third base is more serendipitous. Not that Polanco is a complete stranger to 3B, but it has been awhile.
Johnny Damon, Jason Kendall, Brandon Lyon
How about the A’s trading for Adam Rosales and Willy Tavares for Aaron Miles and Cash. They got rid of Miles’ contract but picked up a larger one in Willy T then DFA’d him. Basically they paid 1.3mil for Rosales who is no more than a AAAA player.
Worst move for the A’s
Best move for the Reds
The A’s actually made money on that transaction though. That was explained on here last month.
Jamey Carroll was bad..real bad, and I’m a Dodger fan. Ned mistimed the market, but it’s all good, at least we didn’t sign Huff or DeRosa! Plus we only committed 4M, and are always in a need of a utility player, the way Torre likes to change lineups daily.
I could care less about Edwin Jackson…we had him and traded him early, but he definitely has a command problem. Scherzer definitely has more UPSIDE, but don’t think of comparing him to any HOF…let alone the all time strikeout leader, Nolan Ryan.
LaRoche messed up, but I don’t blame him, hitting at AT&T park is rough.
I love how Cora is on there for $2 mil. Hey guy, yeah you – the guy who wrote this article – let me teach you about an actual terrible move since you somehow “forgot” to add this seemingly obvious one:
-Brian Schneider signs for 2 years $2.5 mil. He was injured half of last year, bat around .200 and had 3 HR. Meanwhile the Mets sign Barajas for 1 year $1 mil who bat around .220 with 19 HR.
How did you forget to add what is, in my opinion, the worst move this off season in Schneider? tell me how to get a job writing here since I seem to have actual knowledge of bad contracts.
A little harsh but funny as hell nonetheless.
I think Damon declining the Yankees should be on here, but I think Laroche is just a dumbass. I dont know who he thinks would need a first baseman like him when there are plenty that are better at a better price.
How can you talk about bad moves a month before the season starts??? Any of these moves could be good or bad.
According to what other catchers on the market got (jason kendall and Ivan Rodriguiz getting 2-year deals in particular), I don’t really see how Bengie at one year and 4.5 is really a bad deal?
link to giantsbaseballblog.blogspot.com
The moves the Royals made this offseason were puzzling at best. I also thought the Cardinals made terrible front office decisions as well. Holliday may be a fine player but to invest so much money in a down market seemed overreaching. Does anyone really think Brad Penny is worth 7.5 Million Dollars this late in his career and pitching like jekyll and hyde in 09. Not me.
By a wide margin the Brandon Lyon signing claims the crown.
By far – nothing close – the worst move of the season was Sabean OFFERING $17MM to LaRoache.
Top that . . .
Thank God LaRoache is a bigger dolt than Sabean – –
By far – nothing close – the worst move of the season was Sabean OFFERING $17MM to LaRoache.
Top that . . .
Thank God LaRoache is a bigger dolt than Sabean – –
The worst move of the MLB off-season belongs undoubtedly to Sabean for even OFFERING such a ludicrous contract to LaRoache in the first place. Thank God LaRoache is a bigger dolt than Sabean.
There isn’t even a close second . . .
The worst move of the MLB off-season belongs undoubtedly to Sabean for even OFFERING such a ludicrous contract to LaRoache in the first place. Thank God LaRoache is a bigger dolt than Sabean.
There isn’t even a close second . . .
I got to say the mets front office is the biggest fail cuz they didnt do enough at all to help their team. Most of my family are met fans and every time i read that they didnt sign someone i just laughed in their face as they had the head scratching look. Hey im a Yankee fan but i root for the mets when them boyz in blue aint on, and they just did nothing to try and overtake the phillies, or braves
Arizona’s portion of the 3-way deal that net them Jackson was pretty bad.
Jason Bay is also pretty bad, as is Fernando Rodney.
Arizona’s portion of the 3-way deal that net them Jackson was pretty bad.
Jason Bay is also pretty bad, as is Fernando Rodney.
Jason Kendall’s contract from K.C. might be the ultimate head-scratcher. Of course, when was the last time that franchise did something that made sense?
Johnny Damon turning down 2 yr/$14 million from the Yanks.
Tigers trading away Curtis Granderson and replacing him with a older, slower version. P.S. Tiger fans, Austin Jackson hit .260/.296/.328 in the second half of the AAA season. I wouldn’t get too excited.
Cubs dealing Milton Bradley to M’s for Carlos Silva. Not that the Cubs shouldn’t have gotten rid of Mr. Jolly, but to be done with him, they had to take on a even worse contract. Plus, at least Bradley should be useful as a DH. What you’ll get from Silva is anyone’s guess.
I was at the KC camp a couple of days ago watching Kendall taking BP. The coach was just lavishing praise on Kendall for his bat control saying it might have been the best session ever. I just dont think the Royals get it.
I KNOW they don’t get it. There’s a reason they haven’t made the playoffs in over twenty years.
Jason Kendall’s contract from K.C. might be the ultimate head-scratcher. Of course, when was the last time that franchise did something that made sense?
Johnny Damon turning down 2 yr/$14 million from the Yanks.
Tigers trading away Curtis Granderson and replacing him with a older, slower version. P.S. Tiger fans, Austin Jackson hit .260/.296/.328 in the second half of the AAA season. I wouldn’t get too excited.
Cubs dealing Milton Bradley to M’s for Carlos Silva. Not that the Cubs shouldn’t have gotten rid of Mr. Jolly, but to be done with him, they had to take on a even worse contract. Plus, at least Bradley should be useful as a DH. What you’ll get from Silva is anyone’s guess.
dont forget about fernando rodneys deal
dont forget about fernando rodneys deal
The Cora signing was god awful, as was Pudge, and Kendall. But Rodney and Lyon really are inexplicable.
Bay is pretty bad too, the only reason I am moderately OK with it is because Holliday got 7/120. If Holliday woulda gotten 5/90 then I would be furious at the Bay deal.
The Cora signing was god awful, as was Pudge, and Kendall. But Rodney and Lyon really are inexplicable.
Bay is pretty bad too, the only reason I am moderately OK with it is because Holliday got 7/120. If Holliday woulda gotten 5/90 then I would be furious at the Bay deal.
I thnk Polancos contract was a bad deal. Especially considering Figgins signed for 3$ mil more a year, Polanco is playing out of position, they gave up a very good fielder in Feliz.
I thnk Polancos contract was a bad deal. Especially considering Figgins signed for 3$ mil more a year, Polanco is playing out of position, they gave up a very good fielder in Feliz.
Brandon Lyon. Too much money and too many years for such an average reliever.
Brandon Lyon is definitely the worst team move. But you have to consider LaRoche’s turning down 2/17 as pretty bad as well. He cost himself 1 year and 12 million dollars. That’s pretty bad.
Freddy Sanchez 2yr/$12M, much better players at his position – Felipe Lopez, Orlando Hudson – gets just about $4M or less.
Benji Molina should not be on the list. That was a good move by the Giants. Without him last year the Giants may not have been a .500 club and the almost made the wild card. What should be on the list is the Giants offering La Roche $17MM for two years combined with La Roche’s refusal (and getting close to half of $8.5MM for one with the DBacks). Both were equally foolish decisions.
Kinda suprised no one has said this, but how about the Phillies trading Cliff Lee? The more I think about it, the less it makes sense. They get some okay prospects from Seattle and that’s it? Why not hang onto him for a year, offer him arbitration (which he’d almost certainly decline) and net a couple draft picks?
cough cough cough Roy Halladay cough cough cough…
Why is the Alex Cora signing even on this list? Since when is the signing of a major league vet who plays outstanding defensive and is an excellent clubhouse presence for 1 year and only 2 million a bad signing..? How many teams would have loved to have Alex Cora on their bench? I bet the Red Sox wish they could have him back.
Worst move of the entire off season has to be the trading of A CY Young pitcher and one of the Top 5 lefties in all of baseball for 3 marginal prospects.. Even if it were a salary dump why didn’t they offer him to other teams and pick up atleast 1 maybe 2 of their top prospects. Why not keep him for the year and have the best rotation in baseball. Worst case they would have gotten 2 picks for him.. Any of the top 50 guys in next years draft would be better then the 3 players the M’s sent over to Philly.BAD MOVE
You do realize that Roy Halladay was also involved in the transaction, right? I do believe he has also won a Cy, and is actually considered the premier pitcher in all of baseball. That is exactly why it’s not considered a bad move.
Roy Halladays deal was seperate from Cliff Lee. The reason they traded Lee was to jus get propects back so there farm system wasn’t completely drained. But make no mistake, I would rather have Lee and Halladay, even if its just for 1 year, to make a run at the WS becuz the Phillies are in win NOW mode. The propects they got from the M’s are seriously nothing special and they may have given up a WS ring +2 draft picks. I vote for the latter over the 3 prospects.
Why not just send Drabek etc. to Toronto for Halladay and call it a day?
McCourt deciding to keep the Dodgers. Hands down.
Cora’s just not a big enough expenditure to qualify. The Mets’ failure to do anything for their rotation is an exponentially bigger mistake, if you’re putting non-moves like LaRoche in there.
The Dodgers should have signed Felipe Lopez with that money and have Dewitt as the back up.
There is nothing wrong with Bengie Molina for 1 year. 2 years, yes, but 1 year… that is a good deal.
There is nothing wrong with Bengie Molina for 1 year. 2 years, yes, but 1 year… that is a good deal.
I agree that the Lackey deal was a bad move, but wins is a horrible way to evaluate pitchers.
So if a pitcher throws a complete game and gives up two runs but his offense only scores one run its his fault? Fact of the matter is that bad pitchers can win a lot of games and really good pitchers can have mediocre records. If you can’t at least accept that ERA is a better way to evaluate a pitcher performance, nevermind more advanced metrics, and that win/loss is by its nature flawed, then there’s no need for us to carry on a conversation because we’ll never agree
The statistical value of a win is highly overrated because they are highly dependent on your team’s offense and luck. You could have some terrible starter who gives up ten runs every start and only goes three innings with a 20-0 record because his team scores 15 runs in those three innings, or you could have a pitcher who gives up one run every game and throws a CG every time who goes 0-20 because his team doesn’t ever score. Which pitcher would you prefer? And it’s not like that’s totally unreasonable; Matt Cain has a career 3.53 ERA, 729:349 K/BB ratio, and has averaged about 3.7 WAR per year since ’06. His W/L is 44-51. You’re wrong.
Don’t even try to justify wins, no reason to acknowledge anything you say on this board if you’re so stubborn you won’t even admit how useless a stat like wins is.
To be fair a starter has to go five innings to be able to get credited with a win, but the main point of your post stands.
Boss, SPs need to throw at least 5 innings (the first 5) to get a win, RPs don’t fall in that category.
You give the extreme case which, as others have already pointed out, is flawed anyway because your horrible starting pitcher wouldn’t ever get a decision in your example. And if I had the second pitcher on that team, I’d trade him to get some offense. The pitcher I’d prefer is one who both has good peripheral stats (ERA, WHIP, etc.) and stays in games long enough to get a good number of wins. Somebody like Chris Carpenter, for instance, or Adam Wainwright, who are excellent in both fantasy baseball and the real thing.
Enter Roy Oswalt…
And Jair Jurrjens…….
There is an article on ESPN in the Astros news section that discusses how Roy Oswalt was 8-6 last year, yet he handed over the ball 6 times to the bullpen with the lead but couldn’t get the win. 5x his team scored 2 or less runs in support of him and 8x scored 3 or less. Even with a career high 4.12era, he posted a 3.1 WAR.
You do realize that Jose Lima was once a 21 win pitcher right?
Worst Move of Offseason: Omar Minaya not getting fired
Kyle Losch for undeserved Wins, and last year, Clayton Kershaw for losses.. I watched this guy pitch in a game, giving 8.1 innings with 1 unearned run and get the loss. Horrible.
Touche. Though at least Lidge has proven that he knows how to close. Lyon was always subpar when he closed in ARI, besides the first two months of ’08.
Worst Move of Offseason: Omar Minaya not being banned from every baseball team’s front office.
Worst Move of Offseason: Omar Minaya not being banned from every baseball team’s front office.
I don’t play fantasy baseball, so I am one of those dinosaurs that still thinks actual wins and losses are more important than a stat like WAR. Who is this absolutely average replacement player or pitcher, anyway? If he doesn’t exist, then this is a meaningless stat other than for fantasy analysis. And FIP is even more nonsensical. In real, live baseball, there is no such thing as fielder-independent pitching. Every pitcher is dependent on their fielding to make the plays they should make, and once in a while to make a play that is exceptional. Show me a pitcher who blames the loss on his teammates, and I’ll show you a pitcher who won’t be with that team for much longer.
Well you obviously don’t play fantasy baseball because fantasy doesn’t count things like WAR and FIP. Start reading websites like FanGraphs and The Hardball Times, they’ll give you a much better feel for how important these advanced metrics are than I ever could.
Believe it or not, I’m familiar with FanGraphs and other sites that tout these advanced metrics, and am aware that even some GM’s and Asst. GM’s are beginning to buy into them. Some of them have merit: UZR fielding ratings, for instance. Others I just basically don’t buy, such as FIP, because there is and can be no such thing. No pitcher is independent of his fielders. It’s a team game, not an individual one. And while I see some limited usefulness to WAR and VORP, I think they’re overrated simply because there is no completely average player or pitcher, so you’re comparing a player to a composite rather than a real, live player who might try to replace him. So a lot of these metrics are just new and different ways to play with the stats, and shouldn’t be seen as replacing traditional stats such as ERA, BA, and yes, W/L. Show me a pitcher who would rather improve his VORP or FIP stats than get a W, and I’ll show you a pitcher I wouldn’t want on my team, because the ultimate goal is to win the game–or at least it ought to be.