With Felipe Lopez finally catching on with the Cardinals, essentially every big name free agent is off the market (no disrespect to Jermaine Dye and Jarrod Washburn). That allows us to sit back and reflect on all of the offseason's moves, and try to figure out which one was the very best.
Here are some candidates…
- Mets sign Jason Bay to a four-year, $66MM contract.
- Yankees acquire Curtis Granderson for three prospects.
- Phillies acquire Roy Halladay for three prospects.
- Red Sox sign John Lackey to a five-year, $82.5MM contract.
- Mariners acquire Cliff Lee for three prospects.
- Rays acquire Rafael Soriano for Jesse Chavez.
There's certainly no shortage of candidates, but one has to be the best of the best, right? What do you think it is?
NOT Jason Bay! Ha ha……..
Definitely the M’s getting Lee is the best. It’s going to impact them the most out of all the other signings other teams made.
Lee was the best move, but I disagree with your second statement. The move give them 1 year of Lee. How could 1 year of Lee (123 ERA+ in last three years) be more impactful than 3 years of Roy Halladay (141 ERA+ in last three years)?
Also Rich Harden and Hideki Matsui were good moves in the west. As was the Michael Taylor acquisition.
Re Matt: As many writers have pointed out, Lee could actually have the least impact, because he replaces Washburn/ the other guy (forget name) who pitched 200odd innings of 2.7 ball last year for the M’s.
That being said, its still easily the best deal. THere was a mis-print in the article, the M’s got Lee for three ‘prospects’, not three prospects.
Even if they turn out ok, Phillies could and should have gotten more.
The same thing applies for Halladay – short term impact of that one is hard, made the WS and Lee won his games, Halladay replaces Lee, so not sure what impact Halladay can have. Phillies were before and after the trade the best team in the NL by a lot.
Most impact could be Lackey, replacing Smoltz/ Penny – that is a huge change if the other pitching stays good.
Bay wasn’t a great signing, it was just necessary.
Cliff Lee replacing Washburn/Bedard is actually not true. Washburn was traded away from the mariners for prospects during the season. Cliff Lee signing with the mariners means he took away a spot on the starting rotation. Which means he replaces who ever would have been the number 5 starter for the mariners, not Washburn.
On a side note I hate when people compare Bedard/Washburn to lee mostly since Bedard only pitched 5 innings, while Lee is sure to give you at least 7, which has a huge impact on the team and gives the bullpen more time to rest. Something the numbers don’t reflect.
But I really like the Chone Figgins signing, he will have the most impact for years to come, mostly because the Angels don’t have him
But I’d say Figgins has the most impact long term unless we sign a extension with lee(I’d love it if we did but could you imagine having so much money tied up in two pitchers)
LAD locking up Ethier, Broxton, and Kemp for a couple of guaranteed years is a legit great move, possibly the top in my opinion.
although these moves are good moves for the dodgers. This still didnt do enough to beat the phils in the playoffs. The dodgers rotation needed help and well they didnt do enough to fix that. So all in all the Dodgers will still lose the Phils in the playoffs should they meet again.
Can’t I just say it was a great off-season and no move was dreadful and that I love every single move?
I personally think that this off-season was fantastic! And I’m not sure how I could pick a favorite. With that said, my top 3 favorites (not in order) are
Curtis Granderson trade to the Yankees
Chone Figgins and his 4/36MM deal with the Mariners
Cliff Lee to the Mariners
I couldn’t really pick a best move because as I said, it was just a great off-season and a fantastic Hot Stove League.
Now it’s time for the season! Let the Baseball Season begin!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can’t I just say it was a great off-season and no move was dreadful and that I love every single move?
I personally think that this off-season was fantastic! And I’m not sure how I could pick a favorite. With that said, my top 3 favorites (not in order) are
Curtis Granderson trade to the Yankees
Chone Figgins and his 4/36MM deal with the Mariners
Cliff Lee to the Mariners
I couldn’t really pick a best move because as I said, it was just a great off-season and a fantastic Hot Stove League.
Now it’s time for the season! Let the Baseball Season begin!!!!!!!!!!!!
And let’s be really real here,Milton Bradley for Carlos Silva was magnificent! By all textbook and heavenly standards, possibly the most perfect trade of all mankind.
I’d rank them:
Lee
Soriano
Halladay
Granderson
Bay
Lackey
This would be my exact order too.
I should have included my explanation for each.
Lee gives the M’s a formidable 1-2 with Felix. A healthy Bedard (albet an “if”) would give them a very good front 3. They didn’t have to give up much either.
Soriano, while not a great closer, provides stability the Rays need. And landing him at the cost of Chavez (who was acquired for Iwamura) makes it better.
Halladay is undoubtedly one of the best pitchers in the game. However, how much of an upgrade is he over Lee? Was it enough that justifies the Phillies giving up the prospects that they did? I think they would have been in just as good of a position keeping those prospects and Lee. We’ll see though.
Granderson obviously struggles against lefties, but that bandbox is going to do wonders to his numbers. Plus he’ll be hitting in a much deeper lineup. Even if he’s not the greatest defensive OF, he’s an upgrade over Damon whose throws barely make it to the cutoff man.
Bay will probably be 20-25 HR. He’ll still hit HR. The Citi Field factor is VERY overrated. The problem was the Mets’ lineup, not the stadium. Alex Cora, Luis Castillo, and all the other replacements wouldn’t have hit HRs anywhere.
Lackey, while a good pitcher, was overpaid. He’s not left ST healthy since 2007 IIRC. If the Red Sox get 3 straight healthy years out of him, they should count themselves lucky. They’ll probably be fine with him the first 2, but look out during years 3-5.
Oakland acquires Kevin Kouzmanoff and Eric Sogard for Scott Hairston and Aaron Cunningham?
Time will tell if this trade is a good move, but it very well could end up being one of the better moves of the offseason…
It was a good move but it doesn’t highlight the A’s off-season. Personally, I like the Michael Taylor acquisition.
Michael Taylor and Chris Carter are the next Derrek Lee and Ryan Howard respectively.
except that Taylor plays in the outfield
except that Taylor plays in the outfield
It was a good move but it doesn’t highlight the A’s off-season. Personally, I like the Michael Taylor acquisition.
Michael Taylor and Chris Carter are the next Derrek Lee and Ryan Howard respectively.
I think I have to go with Roy Halladay to the Phillies, and not simply because they acquired him, but also because they signed him to a reasonable (considering what most top line starters have gotten over the last few years) extension afterward.
Gotta go with Lee to the Mariners first, then probably the Raffy Soriano move as a sleeper second.
It’s too bad the compensation screwed up Soriano’s contract…
It would have been nice to get a top draft pick + a supplemental pick…
But Chavez seems like he could be a good middle reliever
It’s too bad the compensation screwed up Soriano’s contract…
It would have been nice to get a top draft pick + a supplemental pick…
But Chavez seems like he could be a good middle reliever
You kinda forgot the Javier Vazquez trade.
I think it was a great trade for the Yanks and a decent trade for the Braves. Who knows, could end up an amazing trade for the Braves.
While it’s true that this trade could end up great for the Braves, everything the Yankees gave up was completely expandable. As are all parts they use in trades.
Same could be said for the Braves. Logan was a back-up LHP and Javier was 1 of 6 pitchers in the rotation for the Braves. Braves could have used Javier greatly, but they don’t need him. If the Braves end up in the post-season this year, then it was an amazing trade on both ends.
Same could be said for the Braves. Logan was a back-up LHP and Javier was 1 of 6 pitchers in the rotation for the Braves. Braves could have used Javier greatly, but they don’t need him. If the Braves end up in the post-season this year, then it was an amazing trade on both ends.
While it’s true that this trade could end up great for the Braves, everything the Yankees gave up was completely expandable. As are all parts they use in trades.
I think it was a great trade for the Yanks and a decent trade for the Braves. Who knows, could end up an amazing trade for the Braves.
Chapman to the Reds? May not have most immediate impact but heck of a move for the Reds.
Agreed. Also don’t forget about the Kevin Millwood trade to mentor the young guys.
yep; and they gave up nothing. (Chris Ray)
yep; and they gave up nothing. (Chris Ray)
The young guys in Baltimore do show alot of promise. However they are not going to learn a great deal from Milwood being that he will getting lit up by the AL East and the young guns will not want to take advice from a has been. Again I still like the Orioles young staff and if they keep that young talented team together they can makes some great strides in taking down the evil empire.
Agreed. Also don’t forget about the Kevin Millwood trade to mentor the young guys.
Chapman to any other team would be an absolute Top Runner but because its our beloved Reds the media tries to down play it
Chapman to any other team would be an absolute Top Runner but because its our beloved Reds the media tries to down play it
it will be curtis granderson in time
I didn’t. I just didn’t want to list too many moves.
Bah, wrong spot. This was supposed to be a reply to WisBrave above.
its cool, i kind of figured
I thought so.
How is brandon Lyon for 3/15 not on this list!!!!!
Um, because it was not a good deal perhaps?
That was sarcasm…
Sorry, my bad Ferrari…
I believe there is a hint of sarcasm.
I believe there is a hint of sarcasm.
Um, because it was not a good deal perhaps?
Halladay, then Lee.
You know, I might be biased, but signing LaRoche should be up there.
And seriously? Jason Bay? The guy couldn’t even cover left field in Fenway, and that’s with a 37 foot wall behind him deflecting everything right back.
the cliff lee trade was the best. john lackey was the worst
The John Lackey signing was only the worst if they can’t retain Beckett.
The John Lackey signing was only the worst if they can’t retain Beckett.
Pardon? The only way they would not sign Beckett is if he asked more than they were willing to offer. It won’t be due to being out of money.
The only way the two things (Lackey’s signing and Beckett’s future one) could be meaningfully related is if Lackey has a good year and Beckett’s value to the team decreases as a consequence, leading them to let him walk. But in that case Lackey is pitching well and it makes little sense to call his signing bad.
I agree with the Mariners getting Lee. They stole him… I don’t care if it is for 1 year. I love the Phillies, but this was a very very bad move. The Roy Halladay trade/signing saved them!
Cliff Lee to the Mariners!
(if he signs with them)
It’d be nice if MLBTR had some sort of Poll system so we could vote
They do.
But you have to go to the forum and make your own thread.
They do.
But you have to go to the forum and make your own thread.
Cliff Lee to the Mariners!
(if he signs with them)
It’d be nice if MLBTR had some sort of Poll system so we could vote
The dodgers signing Russ Ortiz is by far the best move of the off season.
LOL… Thats a good joke right there hahaha…
LOL… Thats a good joke right there hahaha…
Plinko
Plinko
Matt Holliday to the Cardinals. If it does nothing else than aid in us keeping Pujols, it was the best deal by far. Just don’t lose it in the lights Matty.
I wondering how far down into the comments I would have to go until I found a Matt Holliday mention. He was worth it all if he gets Pujols to stay. The fact that the Cards will actually have a clean up hitter is just an added bonus.
I wondering how far down into the comments I would have to go until I found a Matt Holliday mention. He was worth it all if he gets Pujols to stay. The fact that the Cards will actually have a clean up hitter is just an added bonus.
Matt Holliday to the Cardinals. If it does nothing else than aid in us keeping Pujols, it was the best deal by far. Just don’t lose it in the lights Matty.
Since it is Spring Training, and hope is in the air, let me offer the signing of Chien-Ming Wang by the Nationals as a dark horse. If he makes it back to 19-win form, then it will certainly deserve to be one of the candidates, especially as a bargain. It certainly should be considered by anyone who wants to discuss Ben Sheets.
Since it is Spring Training, and hope is in the air, let me offer the signing of Chien-Ming Wang by the Nationals as a dark horse. If he makes it back to 19-win form, then it will certainly deserve to be one of the candidates, especially as a bargain. It certainly should be considered by anyone who wants to discuss Ben Sheets.
In order:
Lee (no doubt about it)
Soriano (a steal, but not on Lee’s magnitude)
Bay (good signing for a team that needed a lot more)
Halladay (without trading Lee, it’s a great move. The loss in prospects from Halladay to Lee is a huge trade off)
Lackey (overpaid)
Granderson (overrated center fielder, who looks more like a platoon player…not a big AJax or Kennedy fan but this trade wasn’t much)
Platoon players usually don’t post up 3+ WAR seasons.
You listed Lackey as overpaid but what of Bay? The Red Sox didn’t need him. Who else was bidding for his services? Good hitters that are terrible fielders aren’t so attractive anymore. It seemed quite clear that Bay overplayed his cards by leaving the Red Sox offer; though, the Mets didn’t take advantage of this.
It is also puzzling that you listed the Halladay trade there while having the Lee trade as the best. I liked the bold move but supposedly “having to trade” Lee basically nullified any benefits for the Phillies. I suppose the three way trade was 2 separate entities since nothing went from the M’s to the Jays.
Platoon players usually don’t post up 3+ WAR seasons.
You listed Lackey as overpaid but what of Bay? The Red Sox didn’t need him. Who else was bidding for his services? Good hitters that are terrible fielders aren’t so attractive anymore. It seemed quite clear that Bay overplayed his cards by leaving the Red Sox offer; though, the Mets didn’t take advantage of this.
It is also puzzling that you listed the Halladay trade there while having the Lee trade as the best. I liked the bold move but supposedly “having to trade” Lee basically nullified any benefits for the Phillies. I suppose the three way trade was 2 separate entities since nothing went from the M’s to the Jays.
Phils had to give up too much to get Halladay (moving Lee was part of that deal). I’d have to go with either Lee or Holliday. M’s and Redbirds had the best offseason both getting 2 of the top 10 players moved (Lee and Figgins & Holliday and Lopez).
Phils had to give up too much to get Halladay (moving Lee was part of that deal). I’d have to go with either Lee or Holliday. M’s and Redbirds had the best offseason both getting 2 of the top 10 players moved (Lee and Figgins & Holliday and Lopez).
Matt Holliday signed by the Cardinals. If it does nothing but keep Albert happy enough to re-sign, it was by far the best deal of the offseason. Now that I have that out of my system, it’s Doc to the Phils. He’s a stud, and they are the team to beat in the NL.
Matt Holliday signed by the Cardinals. If it does nothing but keep Albert happy enough to re-sign, it was by far the best deal of the offseason. Now that I have that out of my system, it’s Doc to the Phils. He’s a stud, and they are the team to beat in the NL.
best offseasons for non-contending teams goes to pirates and nationals
best offseasons for non-contending teams goes to pirates and nationals
No way is it Jason Bay… definitely Lee though I think Soriano may be a very good pick up
No way is it Jason Bay… definitely Lee though I think Soriano may be a very good pick up
a quick note:
I’d bet a lot of money on the Mets going full out for Cliff Lee next off season. I don’t think the Mariners will now have the money to resign him, and a lot of other teams (Red Sox, Phillies) are already probably out on a high paid pitcher. The Mets are saying they “don’t have anymore money” but I think it’s pretty obvious that they are saving up for 2011.
i agree, the mets payroll is around 125 mill maybe less. last year it was 149 mill, they might go after lee. next years market is full of good pitchers, a lot of them could come at a bargain.
I wouldn’t discount it but…
How are we sure that the Wilpons will put their faith (and all that cash) in Minaya after years of failure? Plus that whole Madoff incident.
They also might experience a decrease in sales after such a bad season.
Hopefully they will spend because that club really needs a spark.
Mets going after Lee makes way too much sense. I say they re-up O. Perez for another 3/36, that deal was gold.
Huge 1B market next year also, I see the Mets really involved in that.
a quick note:
I’d bet a lot of money on the Mets going full out for Cliff Lee next off season. I don’t think the Mariners will now have the money to resign him, and a lot of other teams (Red Sox, Phillies) are already probably out on a high paid pitcher. The Mets are saying they “don’t have anymore money” but I think it’s pretty obvious that they are saving up for 2011.
This may sound crazy, but the Lopez deal today was as good as any. I know he’s not an impact player, but considering that he’s a very good hitter and an above average defender that can play multiple positions it was a good signing on its own merits. But when you factor in the price: only one year and $1M (guaranteed), it was an outright steal. As a Cubs fan, I’m jealous.
Bobby – absolutely the best bargain signing of the offseason. I can’t believe the Mets wouldn’t take a look at him, given that he’s at worst Luis Castillo at the plate, but a superior fielder that can save probably 15-20 more runs a season. That’s a bunch of wins for a few mil…
Bobby – absolutely the best bargain signing of the offseason. I can’t believe the Mets wouldn’t take a look at him, given that he’s at worst Luis Castillo at the plate, but a superior fielder that can save probably 15-20 more runs a season. That’s a bunch of wins for a few mil…
Agreed. That guy for $1M when Cora’s getting twice that? Absolute steal.
Agreed. That guy for $1M when Cora’s getting twice that? Absolute steal.
This may sound crazy, but the Lopez deal today was as good as any. I know he’s not an impact player, but considering that he’s a very good hitter and an above average defender that can play multiple positions it was a good signing on its own merits. But when you factor in the price: only one year and $1M (guaranteed), it was an outright steal. As a Cubs fan, I’m jealous.
You could say the Hallday deal was the best, but if they kept Lee that rotation would have been awesome.
You could say the Hallday deal was the best, but if they kept Lee that rotation would have been awesome.
I would go with Lee as the best. Halladay is bringing just a little more strength to the rotation then Lee already did. the Hernandez lee combo will do big things for seattle, and I think they have a chance at being a contender.
I would go with Lee as the best. Halladay is bringing just a little more strength to the rotation then Lee already did. the Hernandez lee combo will do big things for seattle, and I think they have a chance at being a contender.
If Holliday secures Albert at a ( some discounted rate) and keeps this generations best hitter in STL I would say that deserves to be on the list. Did we over pay Holliday you betcha… it was kind of a loose loose if we didnt though.
If Holliday secures Albert at a ( some discounted rate) and keeps this generations best hitter in STL I would say that deserves to be on the list. Did we over pay Holliday you betcha… it was kind of a loose loose if we didnt though.
Im a Braves fan but i have t agree with most of these people that Cliff Lee was the best one by far….
Glaus was a fairly low risk, high reward signing, but we’ll be screwed if he gets hurt (Hinske at 1st), which is the major downside, to signing him instead of someone like LaRoche.Vazquez, I don’t think he’ll repeat last year, but if he had stayed in ATL, I feel that he would have has about a 3.60 ERA; but with the Yanks, I don’t think he’ll do too well (4.40 ERA maybe). Melky is a good player to have on the roster with all the young guys coming up, he can fill in anywhere. Mike Dunn has more upside than Logan, and from what I year, Arodys Vizcaino has huge upside (Neftali Feliz talent), but he won’t be up for around 4 years anyway, and is certainly no guarantee. I would have liked to see them sign Felipe Lopez; they’re bench depth in the infield is terrible besides Infante.
Glaus was a fairly low risk, high reward signing, but we’ll be screwed if he gets hurt (Hinske at 1st), which is the major downside, to signing him instead of someone like LaRoche.Vazquez, I don’t think he’ll repeat last year, but if he had stayed in ATL, I feel that he would have has about a 3.60 ERA; but with the Yanks, I don’t think he’ll do too well (4.40 ERA maybe). Melky is a good player to have on the roster with all the young guys coming up, he can fill in anywhere. Mike Dunn has more upside than Logan, and from what I year, Arodys Vizcaino has huge upside (Neftali Feliz talent), but he won’t be up for around 4 years anyway, and is certainly no guarantee. I would have liked to see them sign Felipe Lopez; they’re bench depth in the infield is terrible besides Infante.
Im a Braves fan but i have t agree with most of these people that Cliff Lee was the best one by far….
Hardy to the Twins for an excess outfielder.
I think that would be up there, but the Twins got rid of the wrong outfielder. Gomez was a speedy guy, and even though he did not do much on offense, he was a threat on the basepaths and way better then Young.
Ben Sheets to the A’s, anyone?
I like that too… That is one to thank about… Im
with you though
I would have liked that deal too; if he had gotten Bedard money, even a little more (5m+5m incentives perhaps)
If he’s healthy though, he’ll make good trade bait.
But in my opinion, he definitely does not deserve to be consider the best acquisition.
I would have liked that deal too; if he had gotten Bedard money, even a little more (5m+5m incentives perhaps)
If he’s healthy though, he’ll make good trade bait.
But in my opinion, he definitely does not deserve to be consider the best acquisition.
I like that too… That is one to thank about… Im
with you though
Ben Sheets to the A’s, anyone?
anything that isn’t Halladay to the Phillies is wrong.
anything that isn’t Halladay to the Phillies is wrong.
I think the best will be the Granderson move for the Tigers. I think giving up a platoon player for Austin Jackson (a young leadoff guy who will be a stud), Phil Coke (a lefty who I feel will be a starter), and then Kennedy for Schleshish (a lefty stud who has closer material). I think the long run will show it was a win for the Tigers.
I think the best will be the Granderson move for the Tigers. I think giving up a platoon player for Austin Jackson (a young leadoff guy who will be a stud), Phil Coke (a lefty who I feel will be a starter), and then Kennedy for Schleshish (a lefty stud who has closer material). I think the long run will show it was a win for the Tigers.
A couple under the radar ones: Johhny Gomes on a minor league deal, Aaron Cunningham to the Pads and playing left when A-Gon gets traded mid-season, Morrow traded to Jays, Johnson and LaRoche go to the D-backs, and Hardy to the Twins.
A couple under the radar ones: Johhny Gomes on a minor league deal, Aaron Cunningham to the Pads and playing left when A-Gon gets traded mid-season, Morrow traded to Jays, Johnson and LaRoche go to the D-backs, and Hardy to the Twins.
Y’ALL MISSED THE BEST MOVE OF THE OFF SEASON.. RUSSELL THE MUSCLE… PAUL BRANYAN AND HIS BIG AXE RETURNS TO THE WIGWAM.. NOTHING ELSE COMES CLOSE!!!!!!!!
Y’ALL MISSED THE BEST MOVE OF THE OFF SEASON.. RUSSELL THE MUSCLE… PAUL BRANYAN AND HIS BIG AXE RETURNS TO THE WIGWAM.. NOTHING ELSE COMES CLOSE!!!!!!!!
I like the Jays swapping Michael Taylor for Brett Wallace; who is just about major league ready, and might replace Encarnacion at third, but if that doesn’t work out, he’ll replace Overbay at first…
and he can sure hit.
(Although that probably wouldn’t be considered for the best offseason move)
I like the Jays swapping Michael Taylor for Brett Wallace; who is just about major league ready, and might replace Encarnacion at third, but if that doesn’t work out, he’ll replace Overbay at first…
and he can sure hit.
(Although that probably wouldn’t be considered for the best offseason move)
Best? Cliff Lee trade. Overvalued prospects for an Ace.
Halladay for the Phils wasn’t that great a move, as I see it. It was more of a lateral move once you figure in the downgrade in prospects.
Worst on that list is either Bay or Lackey. Bay because the Mets overpaid by a lot, bidding against themselves, and Lackey because even though he is a good pitcher, you do not sign a pitcher with an injury history to a 5 year contract, especially at that cost. Its moves like that that give you the Hamilton’s, Schmidt’s and Brown’s.
Best? Cliff Lee trade. Overvalued prospects for an Ace.
Halladay for the Phils wasn’t that great a move, as I see it. It was more of a lateral move once you figure in the downgrade in prospects.
Worst on that list is either Bay or Lackey. Bay because the Mets overpaid by a lot, bidding against themselves, and Lackey because even though he is a good pitcher, you do not sign a pitcher with an injury history to a 5 year contract, especially at that cost. Its moves like that that give you the Hamilton’s, Schmidt’s and Brown’s.
I can’t pick one, but 4 or 5 standout to me. There were other moves like others mentioned on a much smaller scale, that were pretty good such as the Kouzmanouff trade.
1) Cliff lee. I completely agree with others that as long as he remains healthy this is the best move by any team and will have the biggest impact in 2010. That trade instantly shifted the AL West to favor Seattle as division winners in my opinion.
2) Granderson. All things considered this was a very good trade for the Yanks and Detroit. Factor in the Vasquez trade, the Yanks essentially forked over nothing. A couple of back, back…back end type arms and 2 young outfielders. Quite frankly, the Yanks moves this off season, aside the Mariners moves were the most intelligent. It’s silly to think the Yanks picked up Vasquez for basically Melky Caberera. #4 in the cy young ballets for a 4th/5th OF.
3) Roy Halladay, but let’s face it, I do not think the move took any of us by surprise. I’d hardly call it the best move of the off season. It safe to say it was the best player to move this offseason, and Toronto did get a nice package, but it wasn’t lights out.
4) Felipe Lopez signing today was pretty damn good. Talk about a huge upside player for virtually nothing.
5) I actually really like the Bradley/Silva swap. I like it for the Mariners. Let’s face it, I’ve never met Bradley, yeah rumor has it he is problematic on teams, but at least he can play. Silva was dead weight.
6) we forget a long time ago, the Twins picked up J.J Hardy for nothing. Not a bad little swap.
Team most exposed this season: Boston Red Sox
Consistent to my #4 Lopez, it makes both the Scutaro and Belte signings look a little silly. Add in the Hardy trade and I’m still scratching my head as to where the Sox where for that one.
The Yank’s signing of Randy Winn, the Giants DeRosa, as well as others I am forgetting makes the 38 yo Cameron signing look absurd. I’m going to include my worst move of the offseason as the Lackey signing as others commented above. Let’s face it though, Red Sox management was backed into a corner, they pulled the trigger way too soon for some of these players. All things considered they did get the better options available to them, but I just have the dirty feeling like they blew their wade of cash at some not so great girls at the you know what (T) bar. Not saying these moves won’t help them on the field. The moves just really make no sense, for their cost and for the age of the player. I just have that feeling they dug an already deep hole, deeper. No? In theory not even the Met’s were able to pull that off. They were just stalled, kinda of like the Astros. Are they still a baseball team? Cinncinati did some weird things, neither bad or good, but just weird.
Bay was not the best move. It is what it is.
One of the few on here to show some objectivity and knowledge of the game.
I can’t pick one, but 4 or 5 standout to me. There were other moves like others mentioned on a much smaller scale, that were pretty good such as the Kouzmanouff trade.
1) Cliff lee. I completely agree with others that as long as he remains healthy this is the best move by any team and will have the biggest impact in 2010. That trade instantly shifted the AL West to favor Seattle as division winners in my opinion.
2) Granderson. All things considered this was a very good trade for the Yanks and Detroit. Factor in the Vasquez trade, the Yanks essentially forked over nothing. A couple of back, back…back end type arms and 2 young outfielders. Quite frankly, the Yanks moves this off season, aside the Mariners moves were the most intelligent. It’s silly to think the Yanks picked up Vasquez for basically Melky Caberera. #4 in the cy young ballets for a 4th/5th OF.
3) Roy Halladay, but let’s face it, I do not think the move took any of us by surprise. I’d hardly call it the best move of the off season. It safe to say it was the best player to move this offseason, and Toronto did get a nice package, but it wasn’t lights out.
4) Felipe Lopez signing today was pretty damn good. Talk about a huge upside player for virtually nothing.
5) I actually really like the Bradley/Silva swap. I like it for the Mariners. Let’s face it, I’ve never met Bradley, yeah rumor has it he is problematic on teams, but at least he can play. Silva was dead weight.
6) we forget a long time ago, the Twins picked up J.J Hardy for nothing. Not a bad little swap.
Team most exposed this season: Boston Red Sox
Consistent to my #4 Lopez, it makes both the Scutaro and Belte signings look a little silly. Add in the Hardy trade and I’m still scratching my head as to where the Sox where for that one.
The Yank’s signing of Randy Winn, the Giants DeRosa, as well as others I am forgetting makes the 38 yo Cameron signing look absurd. I’m going to include my worst move of the offseason as the Lackey signing as others commented above. Let’s face it though, Red Sox management was backed into a corner, they pulled the trigger way too soon for some of these players. All things considered they did get the better options available to them, but I just have the dirty feeling like they blew their wade of cash at some not so great girls at the you know what (T) bar. Not saying these moves won’t help them on the field. The moves just really make no sense, for their cost and for the age of the player. I just have that feeling they dug an already deep hole, deeper. No? In theory not even the Met’s were able to pull that off. They were just stalled, kinda of like the Astros. Are they still a baseball team? Cinncinati did some weird things, neither bad or good, but just weird.
Bay was not the best move. It is what it is.
This offseason for my Yankees really impressed me. Instead of spending a lot of money like they usually do, they made some great trades and made real good small signings. Maybe the days of signing players in their mid 30s to 5 or 6 year contracts are over not gonna count Jeter. The Yankees got younger! Bye bye Damon and your womans softball arm.
Lackey to the Sox, that move really stands out to me. That rotation has the potential to all have 15 wins.
Lackey to the Sox, that move really stands out to me. That rotation has the potential to all have 15 wins.
As for the most unexpected move that was awesome, definitely Lackey. That totally blindsided me.
As for the best move this off season, essentially the entire Mariners off season.
As for the most unexpected move that was awesome, definitely Lackey. That totally blindsided me.
As for the best move this off season, essentially the entire Mariners off season.
Granderson to the Yankees is Good (Reminds me of 70’s trade for one Mickey Rivers)
Yankees went to the World Series 76-78 after trade.
Vasquez to Yankees Baaaaad! (Could not pitch in the American league last time he was in the league)
As for Trade with the most impact: Gotta go with Cliff Lee ( Even for one Year)
As a Die Hard Red Sox fan, Granderson scares me, but Lee will impact his team more.
Granderson to the Yankees is Good (Reminds me of 70’s trade for one Mickey Rivers)
Yankees went to the World Series 76-78 after trade.
Vasquez to Yankees Baaaaad! (Could not pitch in the American league last time he was in the league)
As for Trade with the most impact: Gotta go with Cliff Lee ( Even for one Year)
As a Die Hard Red Sox fan, Granderson scares me, but Lee will impact his team more.
Best move this offseason:
The ricketts hiring greg maddux as assistant GM so hendry can’t spend 6mil/yr on relievers.
Cliff Lee trade for sure.
Cliff Lee and Matt Holliday were probably the best moves.
Bay for $16M a year is terrible. Mets could have had 75% of Bay’s production by signing Dye for a buck and a half! They might have some money to fix the rest of their problems.
The Jays getting their future ace in Morrow on the cheap may blow all of these moves out of the water if he has the career we all expect.
Right now I must go with the Halladay deal. A contending team getting perhaps the most valuable player in the game on a good contract for no major league ready parts is always a steal
what about the A’s signing of Ben Sheets?? and when they traded Brett Wallace for Michael Taylor and when we traded Scott Hairston for Kevin kouzmanoff!! those are the best moves!! Oakland A’s AL West champs!!
The A’s overpayed Sheets by a big amount, IMO. He’s making a pretty good amount for someone who hasn’t played since 2008.
More like the signing of Justin Duscherer…
Cliff Lee by far.
Getting Javier Vasquez for a 4th outfielder and a prospect pretty early in development is quite a coup.
Well there is absolutely no way any of you can seriously say the Phillies getting Halladay for 3 prospects is the best move – are you not aware they LOST Lee in order to make that deal? They didn’t get Halladay for just 3 prospects they got him for those three AND for giving up Lee at the same time. If anything that should belong on the worst moves for them not simply holding onto Lee.
by the end of the season it will be the braves signing troy glaus for 3.75mil and he puts up an mvp worthy season of 30+HRs and 100 RBI’s which is basically what ppl are expecting from Bay and Holliday at a fraction of the cost
I like your enthusiasm for a guy who basically robbed his last team of $12 million to not play. But I suspect that Glaus may never be an everyday player again, even at first, where he doesn’t have to make too many demanding throws. He was not swinging freely or getting much extension with his shoulder when he did return last September, and it’s not entirely clear he will be able to this year, either. That’s why he went unsigned for as long as he did, and why he had to settle for less than a third of what he formerly made.
The Curtis Granderson move will pan out as being one of the deals of the offseason for numerous factors.
Look at Granderson’s splits away from Comerica Park every season of his career, it is remarkable. Its like a completely different player.
2006 Home – .249 AVG, .326 OBP, .389 SLG, .715 OPS, 7 HR, 33 RBI
2006 Away – .271 AVG, .343 OBP, .485 SLG, .828 OPS, 12 HR, 35 RBI
2007 Home – .286 AVG, .351 OBP, .512 SLG, .863 OPS, 10 HR, 36 RBI
2007 Away – .318 AVG, .370 OBP, .592 SLG, .962 OPS, 13 HR, 38 RBI
2008 Home – .277 AVG, .361 OBP, .493 SLG, .854 OPS, 11 HR, 35 RBI
2008 Away – .283 AVG, .368 OBP, .495 SLG, .863 OPS, 11 HR, 31 RBI
2009 Home – .230 AVG, .307 OBP, .388 SLG, .695 OPS, 10 HR, 34 RBI
2009 Away – .267 AVG, .345 OBP, .516 SLG, .861 OPS, 20 HR, 37 RBI
Career
Home – .260 AVG, .336 OBP, .445 SLG, .781 OPS, 38 HR, 138 RBI
Away – .284 AVG, 356 OBP, .522 SLG, 878 OPS, 56 HR, 141 RBI
Take into account
*Granderson is a better player away from Comerica every season of his career
*Away from Detroit in his career he has
+24 points on his AVG
+20 points on his OBP
+77 points on his SLG
+97 points on his OPS
*29 years of age
*Coming to Yankee Stadium and a terrific lineup
*No longer hitting leadoff
Those numbers weren’t coincidence when they are that drastic every single season.
I mean we are talking a solid average and OBP, very good slugging and OPS, more power away from Detroit his whole career.
The Felipe Lopez move (1 year @ $1 Million + 1.2Million) seems like an absolute steal for the Cardinals. Lopez’s is young and his .855 OPS makes that salary very attractive. Plus (if he replicates those numbers), he could get the Cardinals 2 draft picks next year.
The Felipe Lopez move (1 year @ $1 Million + 1.2Million) seems like an absolute steal for the Cardinals. Lopez’s is young and his .855 OPS makes that salary very attractive. Plus (if he replicates those numbers), he could get the Cardinals 2 draft picks next year.
i got to say the best move was Seattle getting figgins. He was such a huge part of the angels dominance, and by taking him away can drastically shift the weight of favorite to the Ms
i got to say the best move was Seattle getting figgins. He was such a huge part of the angels dominance, and by taking him away can drastically shift the weight of favorite to the Ms
I vote for Harden and Ray to the Rangers for Millwood money. Exactly what that team needed. Seattle gets the press but the Rangers have the team in the AL West put together to win.
Easily Cliff Lee. A definite, significant upgrade and a perfect fit for the ballpark and a wide-open division.
Greatest NON-Signing …Carlos Delgado …give the mets some credit here…
Are you seriously saying that errors are the way to judge defense? Are you going to argue how good a pitcher Roger Pavlik is because he won 19 games that one year? Give me a break
Are you seriously saying that errors are the way to judge defense? Are you going to argue how good a pitcher Roger Pavlik is because he won 19 games that one year? Give me a break
Errors are a terrible way to judge an outfielder. In 2008 Pat Burrell had 2 errors, does that mean he is a good fielder?
Errors are a terrible way to judge an outfielder. In 2008 Pat Burrell had 2 errors, does that mean he is a good fielder?
Hey Larry, stick to posting about things you know something about, because baseball apparently ain’t your thang, dawg. Errors? Are we back in the 1970s again?
Hey Larry, stick to posting about things you know something about, because baseball apparently ain’t your thang, dawg. Errors? Are we back in the 1970s again?
I’m guessing you don’t pay attention to UZR or UZR/150. Jason Bay’s UZR/150 was -11.2. Thats not very good at all.
Also take a look at WAR.
Jdub220 is actually right about Jason Bay’s defense.
I’m guessing you don’t pay attention to UZR or UZR/150. Jason Bay’s UZR/150 was -11.2. Thats not very good at all.
Also take a look at WAR.
Jdub220 is actually right about Jason Bay’s defense.
You could put a corpse in left field for a week, and the only way he’d “make an error” would be if the ball bounced off his arm or something. If a guy makes 55 errors, sure, he’s a bad fielder. But while making a lot of errors is a telltale sign of a poor fielder, making few errors isn’t necessarily a telltale sign of a good fielder. If you don’t have the range to get the ball in the first place, you don’t get penalized with an error, but you’re still a bad fielder.
You could put a corpse in left field for a week, and the only way he’d “make an error” would be if the ball bounced off his arm or something. If a guy makes 55 errors, sure, he’s a bad fielder. But while making a lot of errors is a telltale sign of a poor fielder, making few errors isn’t necessarily a telltale sign of a good fielder. If you don’t have the range to get the ball in the first place, you don’t get penalized with an error, but you’re still a bad fielder.
Pat Burrell went for more then half a season once without making and error. How do you grade his outfielding skills? Sometimes making no error just means you cant get to the balls most outfielders should.
Uh Larry, errors? Really? Are you familiar with UZR?
bay is still a lot better than what the mets had last season in left field and he knows how to catch a ball so his defense won’t hurt the team.
bay is still a lot better than what the mets had last season in left field and he knows how to catch a ball so his defense won’t hurt the team.
The Phillies trading their current ace to pay millions more for an older ace, and giving up Drabek and Taylor to do so isn’t what I would call a slam dunk for “best move” of the offseason. Sure, they extended Halladay, but added another $20MM to the payroll for the next three seasons as well. I wouldn’t call that the best move of the offseason at all, though I would from the Mariners’ side of it.
As for the other five… Fernando Rodney has to go up there in the bottom five moves of the offseason. Multiple years and $11MM for a guy who, at best, can be described as “average.” Rodney was a terrible signing by the Angels. Rodney got paid for his saves last season, which aren’t a reflection of his ability as a pitcher whatsoever.
The Phillies trading their current ace to pay millions more for an older ace, and giving up Drabek and Taylor to do so isn’t what I would call a slam dunk for “best move” of the offseason. Sure, they extended Halladay, but added another $20MM to the payroll for the next three seasons as well. I wouldn’t call that the best move of the offseason at all, though I would from the Mariners’ side of it.
As for the other five… Fernando Rodney has to go up there in the bottom five moves of the offseason. Multiple years and $11MM for a guy who, at best, can be described as “average.” Rodney was a terrible signing by the Angels. Rodney got paid for his saves last season, which aren’t a reflection of his ability as a pitcher whatsoever.
Ive been talking about all 5 of those off-season moves the whole off-season.
Ive been talking about all 5 of those off-season moves the whole off-season.
WOW! First of all, the Rich Harden deal is not worthy of mention consider how much they signed him for… Especially when you look at how low of cost the Mariners got Bedad for.
Secondly, Fernando Rodney could quite possibly the offseasons worst signing…
WOW! First of all, the Rich Harden deal is not worthy of mention consider how much they signed him for… Especially when you look at how low of cost the Mariners got Bedad for.
Secondly, Fernando Rodney could quite possibly the offseasons worst signing…
The thing about Bay is getting to the ball to begin with.
The thing about Bay is getting to the ball to begin with.
Yeah, his defense will definitely hurt the team. He’s horrid. And his hitting isn’t so good that it completely makes up for it.
For comparison, Felipe Lopez had 1 WAR over Bay last year. Felipe freakin’ Lopez.
Yeah, his defense will definitely hurt the team. He’s horrid. And his hitting isn’t so good that it completely makes up for it.
For comparison, Felipe Lopez had 1 WAR over Bay last year. Felipe freakin’ Lopez.
I disagree, most teams will take a player who hits 30 Home Runs and 100 RBI’s and day. I know I certainly would.
I disagree, most teams will take a player who hits 30 Home Runs and 100 RBI’s and day. I know I certainly would.
So you would rather have..say jack cust or Jason bay over someone like pedroia or ichiro?
In that case, I’m glad your not a GM
So you would rather have..say jack cust or Jason bay over someone like pedroia or ichiro?
In that case, I’m glad your not a GM
Also if that’s the case, why iwnjermaine dye still out their? Rbi and HR are poo ways to measure someone’s value.
Especially when they miss routine plays.
Also if that’s the case, why iwnjermaine dye still out their? Rbi and HR are poo ways to measure someone’s value.
Especially when they miss routine plays.
Aumont doesn’t suck.
Aumont doesn’t suck.
No I meant in the offensive perspective. Obviously I’d rather have Franklin Gutierrez in the outfield than Jason Bay. But at the plate, I’d take Jason Bay over Dustin Pedroia. Not Ichiro though! Good call.
But overall, I agree with you, HR’s and RBI’s are not the best way to judge a players value. But I think if Jason Bay was signed by the mariners for example, he would share some time at DH. Also, I think the Mets were willing to sacrifice the bad defense for his bat. If they could have Ichiro or Dustin Pedroia, They’d probably take them over Bay. But Jason Bay is an overall upgrade over Murphy or Pagan. And in all retrospect, Jason Bay is a really good hitter. A really good hitter without a great glove. But that happens. Every player in Major League Baseball (except for a select 10 or 20) have some sort of flaw. Jason Bay is no exception. But he is certainly worth it at the plate.
And Jermaine Dye is a different story, the guy really struggled at the plate the second half of the season. His defense is terrible. Therefore, I think he will get a DH job. I don’t think Jason Bay is a Full time DH at all. I think he can improve his UZR this season. I hope he will!
No I meant in the offensive perspective. Obviously I’d rather have Franklin Gutierrez in the outfield than Jason Bay. But at the plate, I’d take Jason Bay over Dustin Pedroia. Not Ichiro though! Good call.
But overall, I agree with you, HR’s and RBI’s are not the best way to judge a players value. But I think if Jason Bay was signed by the mariners for example, he would share some time at DH. Also, I think the Mets were willing to sacrifice the bad defense for his bat. If they could have Ichiro or Dustin Pedroia, They’d probably take them over Bay. But Jason Bay is an overall upgrade over Murphy or Pagan. And in all retrospect, Jason Bay is a really good hitter. A really good hitter without a great glove. But that happens. Every player in Major League Baseball (except for a select 10 or 20) have some sort of flaw. Jason Bay is no exception. But he is certainly worth it at the plate.
And Jermaine Dye is a different story, the guy really struggled at the plate the second half of the season. His defense is terrible. Therefore, I think he will get a DH job. I don’t think Jason Bay is a Full time DH at all. I think he can improve his UZR this season. I hope he will!
The highest paid players in the game are the the ones that can hit the long ball and drive in runs. Stop pretending you know baseball.
The highest paid players in the game are the the ones that can hit the long ball and drive in runs. Stop pretending you know baseball.
Theo Epstein has won two World Series titles in the last six years. Guessing he’s not losing too much sleep over your disagreeing with his decision.
Theo Epstein has won two World Series titles in the last six years. Guessing he’s not losing too much sleep over your disagreeing with his decision.
Wanted but didn’t need a slugger.
Exactly… if it’s hit at him, he’ll get it…otherwise…He’s a very good hitter, but a lot of people have concerns about his knee, so I don’t think this was a very good signing…
Exactly… if it’s hit at him, he’ll get it…otherwise…He’s a very good hitter, but a lot of people have concerns about his knee, so I don’t think this was a very good signing…
That’s a terrible thing to post on a discussion. “He knows more than you”
Any GM can make a mistake.
You should at least consider what they’re saying…
That’s a terrible thing to post on a discussion. “He knows more than you”
Any GM can make a mistake.
You should at least consider what they’re saying…
He’s also the guy responsible for trading Hanley away.
Point being: why mention arbitrary, unrelated stuff? We’re discussing best/worst moves, nothing more.
He’s also the guy responsible for trading Hanley away.
Point being: why mention arbitrary, unrelated stuff? We’re discussing best/worst moves, nothing more.
Right you are Morneau. Hey, I’m Spandemonium and You are MorneauVP…If we can find a Mauer667 or something like that we can form a Twins lineup on MLBTR!!!!!!!!
Right you are Morneau. Hey, I’m Spandemonium and You are MorneauVP…If we can find a Mauer667 or something like that we can form a Twins lineup on MLBTR!!!!!!!!
How do they figure out the Gold Glove winners? Or better yet, why?
Take a look at his most important stats: 36HR-119RBI’s. All these other meteric stats might be great for fantasy baseball but most are flawed or useless.
Take a look at his most important stats: 36HR-119RBI’s. All these other meteric stats might be great for fantasy baseball but most are flawed or useless.
The game is played the same way today as it was 40 years ago. The object is to score,your team scores more than the other team you win.
The game is played the same way today as it was 40 years ago. The object is to score,your team scores more than the other team you win.
You cite two of the most common fantasy stats — HR and RBIs — as “his most important stats,” then claim metric stats “might be great for fantasy baseball” when fantasy leagues almost never use UZR or WAR.
You are indeed confused.
36 and 119 would by taken by any team any day.
what I’am implying is that statistical analysis of this sort might be great for the number crunchers in the fantasy leagues.
You have it backwards. The statistical analysis is better to gauge his actual worth. The HR/RBI is better for the fantasy leagues. Which means, they don’t matter.
You can field a team of Adam Dunns and Jason Bays, and I’ll field a team of Ben Zobrists, and I guarantee my team wins 8 times out of 10.
It is played the same, but the understanding of the game has evolved a ridiculous amount. It’s not about W/L records, errors, HR, and RBIs anymore. It’s about FIP, UZR, ISO, BABIP, wOBA, and WAR now, at least to the more informed fans and writers. I suggest you read up on it, if you don’t know about it already. It really is interesting stuff. But my definition of “interesting” is a bit different than most peoples.
MauerPower? Or stylized as MauerPauer? I’m not the most clever person, but it was the best I could think of…
Oh yea,And I’ll field a team of Pujols or A-Rods or Howards and my team will win 8 out of 10. Why,because any of the above can rake better than Zobrist.
Wtf does money have to do with this discussion?
if that’s the case then why is Adam Dunn treated like the red headed step child of the MLB when he drives in 40 home runs every year? I’ll give you a hint it’s because his defense is atrocious. The highest played players are the ones who are good at hitting, not only for power but for average and can at least not be a liability on defense.
You’re totally missing the point. I was saying that big bat, no glove players aren’t good to have. Pujols has a great glove, A-Rod has a pretty bad glove, and Howard is actually above average, contrary to popular belief. It’s not all about hitting. You fail to see that.
By the way, Zobrist was the most valuable player in the MLB last year, due to his versatility, glove, and bat. And if you want to get down to it, 8 Zobrists would probably beat all of those players anyways, because none of those guys can play CF, SS, or 2B, but that’s all beside the point…
Maybe your understanding of the game has evolved into statistical analysis but the last time I checked the most important stat was the teams record. I found no scoreboard listing the FIP, UZR,and ISO just R-H-E.In the game recap I found HR,RBI’S and SB but no WAR or OBA.You know you can get more info by watching the game than by sitting around reading meterics all day.
The team’s record isn’t relevant in this discussion. I thought we were talking about individual performance, not team performance. The R/H/E and HR/RBI/SB stats are just counting stats, which are easy to understand for the mainstream fans. Though those stats are dependent on others (other than HR, I guess you could say), the stats I mentioned reflect individual performance, which again, better depict a player’s worth.
And for the record, I watch EVERY single game for my team, the Diamondbacks, and all the games I can when they’re on ESPN, MLBN, Fox, and TBS. Unless, of course, they’re Sox or Yankee games because I’m tired of seeing those teams play. I’m not just a number cruncher or something like that, I’m a fan too. I don’t mean to toot my own horn, but I’m just a better analyst than most people (although there are many, many, many people even just on this site that are 1000x better than I am) when it comes to baseball. But I do wish I could be a sabermatrician, that’s be really cool…
“I found no scoreboard listing the FIP, UZR,and ISO just R-H-E.In the game recap I found HR,RBI’S and SB but no WAR or OBA.You know you can get more info by watching the game than by sitting around reading meterics all day.”
Amazing that some people still believe this.
No ,you are missing the point…While Zobrist had a break out year in 2009, he’s a career 260 hitter. to compare him to the players mentioned is laughable. Don’t delude yourself into thinking he’s a better player,he’s not and the salaries reflect this. And by the way Howard, from what I saw is a terrible fielder and if you think Bay is bad you should of seen the guy he replaced and that guy is making 25m per year but that’s beside the point.
I never said he was a better player. I said he was more valuable LAST YEAR.
But yeah, I actually think he’s a better player than Adam Dunn and Jason Bay. A-Rod and Howard are better than Zobrist, but they aren’t light years ahead of him. Versatility is WAY undervalued. Pujols is light years ahead of everybody on this side of Hanley Ramirez.
And while Bay is better than ManRam defensively, ManRam >>>>>>>>>>> Bay offensively. Now, whether that will continue in 2010 remains to be seen.
Lastly, I have no clue why you mentioned the salaries. All those players are post-arbitration, other than Howard, who is in arb. Zobrist is in the first 3 years of his MLB career, so he’s pre-arb, and makes the league minimum. If you don’t know what arbitration is, click on “Hot Stove Glossary” under MLBTR Features on the right side of the page, and it’ll lead you to it.
If your stats depict a player’s worth how does Bay wind up making 66m after turning down 60 from the Sox? Why does Manny make 25m , A-Rod 27m , Holiday 26m or Jeter 21m in the last year of a 189m contract.
Not a thing except what you describe as POO stats are what players make the most money .You nutbag.
Well, the stats might depict a player’s worth, but they don’t determine what he’s paid.
Bay would’ve made Holliday money if his defense wasn’t so bad. Plus, big markets like Boston and NY tend to overpay for players.
Manny’s per year salary is so high because he signed a shorter term contract, and Boras is his agent.
A-Rod makes 27MM a year because Scott Boras, as much as I hate the guy, is a genius.
Same thing with Holliday.
And Jeter is a legend in NY.
First of all Holliday never makes 26 he makes 16 million in todays money, second those players all post ops over 900. If it were all about homeruns and RBI’s then guys like Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard would be the MVP every year.
Owned!
Flawless Victory
I just watched Liu Kang kick the crap out of Sonya. Finish him!
When Halladay wins the Cy young and Lee signs elsewhere next season you will understand. And just wait until you see what Lee signs for especially if he has as good a year as he’s capable. This is coming from someone that would have liked to see the Halladay and Lee in the same rotation. Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in the game and he signed for a resonable deal as compaired to what he could have asked for.
since the halladay and lee deals were two separate trades, you have to look at them that way. the deal that brought roy halladay to philly was the best of the offseason. we gave up some great talent, but in return we have 4 (probably 5) years of the best pitcher in baseball, who actually WANTED to play here, and money wise–under his free-agent market value. you say ‘but added another 20mm to the payroll for the next 3 seasons..’ well, okay….cliff lee or any great pitcher could/would have commanded that anyway…its what you pay for premium players.
id much rather take 4 years of roy halladay for drabek/taylor/d’arnaud VS 1 year of cliff lee for aumont/ramirez/gilles…easily if you compare the two deals, at this point in time, the phils deal is much better
since the halladay and lee deals were two separate trades, you have to look at them that way. the deal that brought roy halladay to philly was the best of the offseason. we gave up some great talent, but in return we have 4 (probably 5) years of the best pitcher in baseball, who actually WANTED to play here, and money wise–under his free-agent market value. you say ‘but added another 20mm to the payroll for the next 3 seasons..’ well, okay….cliff lee or any great pitcher could/would have commanded that anyway…its what you pay for premium players.
id much rather take 4 years of roy halladay for drabek/taylor/d’arnaud VS 1 year of cliff lee for aumont/ramirez/gilles…easily if you compare the two deals, at this point in time, the phils deal is much better
the phils could’ve kept drabek…let lee go at the end of the season…collect on the picks he brings back…replaced lee with drabek and maybe even still sign Doc.
I hope your right. He certainly looks like he has potential and Ramirez looks like a good prospect as well. And Gillies has star potential with his work ethic and the chip he has on his shoulder. That being said the phils could have gotten more for Lee but didnt want the possibility of having to keep Lee. Because I think if they did shop him and drag it out they might have kept him and then got two sub par picks to compensate him leaving. Albeit if they keep him they probably assure themselves of another ring.
It’s more about reputation than actual skill. See: Derek Jeter, Nate McLouth.
Where did you get your info? Holliday hasn’t been in the negatives since 2006. And that’s the only year where he was in the negatives.
Of course I’m not saying Bay is in Ramirez, Sheffield, Hawpe or Dye territory. But he’s still awful. He’s a good hitter, don’t get me wrong, but he will definitely hurt the Mets in the field. And no offense, but the Mets have a lot of things working against them already.
Bingo!
the big winner of them all was DOC
In a depressed economy, to get that dollar amount realistically Doc only had 5 potential suitors tops…
1 – Boston
2 – Phillies
3 – Cubs
4 – Mets
5 – Angels
The fact that the Yankees are being salary conscious ( ask Mr. Damon ) pretty much took them out of any potential Doc sweepstakes…the fact that the dodgers are going to be lowering payroll says the same thing…..
If Doc wants to win a ring…well that eliminates the Mets and Cubs from that list…to me Doc cashed his chips early because he knows he is not going to get more than 4 yrs 80-90 mil…
so signing 3 yr 20 mil with easily vested option for a 4th year guarantees the max he was going to get on the market anyway…
He isn’t actually responsible for that. But even if he were, it was not a bad move.
I really don’t mean to be rude, but you are making no sense. We are talking about Jason Bay, right? He hasn’t played CF since 2005, when he was 26, for 29 games, and he was horrendous. He’s now 31. You can’t possibly be saying he will be good in the field next year because he used to play CF, when it’s ALREADY BEEN PROVEN that he can’t field even left, let alone left in Fenway.
I agree, that Bay is still a useful player due to his bat. But he isn’t the player every Met fan (and Sox fan, for the last few years) make him out to be. He’s basically a glorified, right handed Adam Dunn, but instead of his defense being historically awful like Dunn’s, it’s just awful. And his defense will decline even more as he gets older, and actually might become Adam Dunn-ish. You have a good player, but there are definitely major drawbacks. I know you’ll disagree, but really, Matt Holliday was the better option, even considering that he was paid almost double over three more years. He has a much better chance of being worth his contract.
Claim-The stats might depict a player’s worth,they don’t determine what he’s paid.
Fact-That’s because your stats are flawed and useless.If your system worked,just think of the millions teams could save.
Claim-Bay would of made Holliday money if his defense wasn’t so bad.
Fact-Holliday is a better all-around player than Bay.Neither is that good with the glove but you could tell this just by watching them play if you know anything about the game.
Claim-Big markets like Boston and NY tend to overpay for players.
Fact-Not accurate. Holliday is with the Cards, Manny’s is in LA and A-Rod was signed by Texas first for 250mil.
Claim-Manny’s salary is so high because he signed a shorter contract.
Fact-Do you know anything about baseball? The guy is one of the best bats in the game plus people pay money to see him play.
Claim-A-R0d makes 27mil because of Scot Boris.
Fact-You really don’t know anything about baseball…A-Rod before he’s done projects to have 3500hits and set records for the most HR-Runs and RBI’S. People will fill the stadium to watch this guy and the Yankees will make money on the investment. Oh yes, A-ROD got rid of Boris before he signed.
Claim-Jeter is a legend in NY.
Fact-Jeter will go down as the best SS to ever play the game. A class act who will also wind up with 3500hits and a first ballot HOF.
Probability may suggest Aumont and Ramirez are bullpen guys and Gillies is a 4th OF, but they all have decent upside and should not be discarded as “garbage”. Ramirez could become a #2 starter in the NL. He’s the one it hurts the most to lose, and people that mock the trade are generally unfamiliar with him.
1. Many many teams use the stats that I use. The smaller market teams do, because they can’t just throw money at stuff, so they have to find out how they can get cheap value. The Dbacks use these stats, for example.
2. Yeah, I JUST SAID that Holliday is a better all-around player than Bay. He’s not way better with the bat, but he’s loads better with the glove, and he’s a better baserunner. Holliday is actually a pretty good fielder. And before you bring up that line drive to the nuts in the NLDS, that was ONE play.
3. St. Louis isn’t a big market. Manny isn’t worth 25MM a year at his age, with character and hustle issues, and fielding issues. A-Rod was worth every penny that Texas paid him, I didn’t dispute that. In NY under his new contract, he’s a bit overpaid because he’s a 3B instead of a SS now. But still, it’s not horribly overdone, he’s one of the best in the history of the game. By the way, at the end of most long term contracts, they will be considered bad contracts because you pay a huge price for their decining years.
4. See 3. Manny was looking for 5/100, but took a shorter term deal because he could get more per year, and that LA wouldn’t pay 5/100. So he took 2/45. If he took a longer term deal from say, the Giants, he would’ve only been paid about 18MM/year.
5. The framework for the deal was set out before Boras was fired. Scott Boras creates false interest, makes up stuff, and is a really good negotiator. The guys has balls of steel. I highly doubt A-Rod gets 10/275 without Boras. Again, RBI’s don’t mean anything. They’re a situational thing, depending on how good the guys around you are.
5. About Jeter, I said he was a legend, and you said he’s the best SS to ever play the game. I think they go hand-in-hand, right? You basically just said the same thing I did.
Fact- I’m right, you’re wrong. You won’t admit it. My stats are much better than your stats. Any knowledgeable baseball fan will tell you: it’s not about AVG, HR, RBI, and W/L. Maybe 30 years ago, but baseball has come a long way since then. We can go on with this forever, but I highly doubt I can change your mind, no matter how much undeniable concrete proof I have. Which, I do indeed have.
Oh another thing: don’t you think it kind of says something that you’re the ONLY person on this site that argues FOR the importance of those stats? So are you saying every member of the MLBTR site is wrong, and you’re the only person that’s right?
Hmmm…..
Now that sounds like micah hoffpauir!
Very valid point. However he still could have asked for more and turned it into a negotiation if he so chose. He wanted to play for Philly and he wanted to get a deal done quickly and easily. The phils were more then willing to sign him for 20 mill because ultimately he is worth that. I still love the Halladay deal and although I understand the Lee deal it I guess I’m a little bit greedy in that potential rotation. Overall The phillies improved their club and didnt criple there finances.
I think we’re on the same page…I just worded mine poorly, metsville….wins are a bad way to judge a pitcher, and a lack of errors for an OF is a bad way to judge how good of a defensive player he is.
however doc would be gambling on 2010 year…what if he gets hurt….? to me he played it smart…
the phils could’ve had 1 year of cliff lee, let him go, collect picks, then scoop up doc for a potential smaller contract.
with a depressed economy, 20 mil is not guarenteed anymore….and with a few good starters on the market, it may have been a buyers market for starters this coming off-season…
Now they let lee go, let drabek go, let taylor go, let the 2 picks they would’ve gotten for lee go….and now assume all the risk for an older pitcher…and o by the way, werth is a free agent this coming off-season…so is rollins, and ryan the year after…if anything, this year might be the last hurrah if 2 out of 3 leave.
didnt howard win the mvp already?
2 – holliday much better with the glove?
link to youtube.com
is there a stat for clutch defensive performance?
hmmm…i wonder why everyone was singing Bay’s praises for the way he handled the BOSTON spotlight filling in a legend’s shoes…in the middle of a playoff run no less
Okay everything you said is correct but I look at it in a different view. One if they keep lee and let him go he most likely signs with a contender and the picks the phils get are late first rounders and would be 4-5 + years away from the big leagues. The prospects they got for Lee are better then the 2 picks they could have gotten. Aumont has potential…Gillies is a workman guy who goes all out….Ramirez is diamond in the rough with a live arm. Two I really dont think they sing Doc for less then 20 next year and the competition albeit thin would be there for the type of pitcher he is.
Now the “risk” taken on the best pitcher in the game I’ll take that risk. Rollins is signed through next year they picked up his 2011 option earlier in the offseason. So Werth is a free agent and will be very hard to sign unless we can unload maybe Ibanez and sign Werth long term. If they cant do that Dominic Brown ” the stud the phillies would not let go” will step into his hole. Then even though the phils farm is depleted it is not depleted in the Outfield so thats just baseball people leave for greener pastures. Lastly Amaro has been quoted he plans to make Howard a phillie for life at just about any cost so him leaving probably wont happen. Rollins would probably sign a lesser deal to retire a phille and the one person you didnt mention is we have Chase @#$#$% Utley. Great argument but i respectfully disagree.
Also, the problem with both of them is that they are in their early
30’s….so AL teams will have the built in advantage of using them at DH
well into their mid-late 30’s…this is the unfair advantage AL teams have
when it comes to free-agency.
I can see Ryan going to Texas. Rollins going to Anaheim or Oakland.
Also with regards to Doc,
with the Yankees and Dodgers potentially out of the mix, it would
essentially come down to 4 studs…
Webb
Beckett
Lee
Doc
with potential stud Oswalt on the trading block…i think doc is the oldest
of the bunch,
I still take Doc out of that stud crew. He lit up the AL East that just doesnt happen. I dont mind the Phils signing him for 20 mill a year he’s worth it. And who says the phils cant sign another one of those studs looking for a championship. The Phils have been linked to Webb before and if it is true that the money just isnt out there for him why not sign with the phils for a lesser deal to make another run with the lineup we will still have next season. Even with the potential of losing Werth this lineup is still signed through 2011. Plug in Brown in Werths spot and the lineup is still full of all stars.
Now I agree that trading Lee will forever be remebered as a iffy call until the dust settles but do I think it was the worst thing Amaro could have done…no. Lee said it himself he wanted to sign with the phillies if it doesnt work out in Seattle maybe he comes back in free agency especially if the market doesnt get him the money he is looking for. Only time will tell. All I know is the Phils have a real shot at a third straight Pennent.
And as far as Howard and Rollins go. I dont think they will let Howard go. I know that there are many teams that eye him up but I just dont see Amaro letting him hit the open market. Rollins Im not so sure of but I just think he wants to retire from one team and yes if he did go somewhere I can see him sign with Oakland to play at home.
so long as the owners can live with the salary cutting into their profit, i
should see why not…i think the phils might be topping out on potential
revenue though ( at least via ticket sales ).
not sure if they have their own sports network
That is very true. They sell out almost every game and the “non Sellouts” are still 40 k plus. Overall they actually oversell their stadium capacity with the standing room only tickets. But with a growing fan base and the potential of three consecutive pennants I can see them raise prices and I personally wouldnt mind to stay competetive past the next two or three years. But the revenue is certainly towards as high as it can go.
Howard is going to get close to 20, Werth close to 15, Lee will get 20, Doc
will add another 10 this year and 20 after…Rollins will be at least 10 mil
a year..something will have to give.
at some point, u may have to start trading some of your assets like werth
and howard.
texas has some nice pitching prospects. to me u either are going for the
long haul and looking to be competitive every year ( ala Atlanta ) or ur
gonna go balls to the walls and go for the title this year.
I agree with the longevity thing that if they dont think forward they will fall off. But I think that Howard is too important to let go. He hits 45 HR’s at least a year has 115 RBI’s + and he is vastly improved and worked on his fielding. Now Werth even though he is the man I can see him leave. Rollins is the leader of this team and seems to really like being a Phillie. The Phils do have to make some tough decisions in the coming years. So I can see it work out this way Sign Howard long term keep Utley (for life) they can use the farm system to keep a very good young outfield. Brown long term Anthony Gose in Center in the future and Gillies can be in left. that’s where they can save money in the depth they have on the farm. So that can leave money for the rotation and keep Rollins. They will need a couple of free agents to fill in at either 3rd or Catcher unless they can get a prospect to step up and take those positions. But I dont think they have those guys on the farm yet. Pitching wise Hamels will return to form and be here a while. Plus Halladay can stay up to the next 5 years if his options are picked up. So given all of the variables they still have the draft and Victorino and Werth were Rule 5 picks so maybe they can still get one or two of those guys.
The problem is that Howard in 2-3 years will be more fit to be a DH than a
1B, so do u sign him to a 7 year deal, knowing that the last 4 will consist
of a Chase/Howard aging on the same side of the infield ?
Imagine Howard playing in the AL, being able to DH….Rollins is a Oakland
native, grew up an A’s fan and has made some questionable remarks about
Philly fans in the past while the Bay Area fans are pretty loyal…( Barry
Zito would’ve committed suicide if he had to deal with East Coast fans /
press )
It is more probable for Jimmy to leave with his age however he usually says things about the phils or other teams to motivate his team. And most of the time it works. He is outspoken about the media and the fans when he needs to be but that’s just who he is. And the Howard argument certainly has legs and I understand that but have you seen him this spring? He’s in the best shape he’s ever been. The last two years he has been eating better working out better and even though he’s always going to be massive he is an athletic big man. That being said I think he loves to play first base and that is why he has worked tirelessly to improve in the field. Would he make a great DH yes but I just dont think he has to play DH. He can play first in the NL on the phils for his career.