Some notes from the Twin Cities…
- The Twins turned down a Yankee offer of Ivan Nova and Ramiro Pena for Francisco Liriano earlier this winter, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com. The Twins, however, are interested in left-handed pitching prospect Manuel Banuelos and want him included in any package from New York. Rosenthal thinks the two teams will revisit negotiations before Opening Day, but notes the two sides haven't talked "in at least a month." Minnesota assistant GM Rob Antony said last week that the Liriano trade speculation was nothing but rumors.
- The Twins didn't have "serious" negotiations about an extension with Liriano this winter. Rosenthal speculates that Minnesota may have concerns about Liriano's durability, since "otherwise, an extension makes perfect sense." Liriano can be a free agent after 2012 and MLBTR's Tim Dierkes saw the southpaw as an extension candidate last fall.
- Michael Cuddyer is slightly upset, but understanding, about the Twins not discussing a contract extension with him over the winter, writes Kelsie Smith of the Pioneer Press. Cuddyer can be a free agent after the season and Smith argues that the Twins would miss Cuddyer's clubhouse leadership if he were to depart.
“The Twins turned down a Yankee offer of Ivan Nova and Ramiro Pena for Francisco Liriano earlier this winter, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports”
lulz. Nice try Cashman.
What? Isn’t that the going rate for “nobody of value?”
If you want Liriano im assuming the Yankees would have to start the package with Jesus Montero.
What use would the Twins have for Montero?
backup 1B and a DH, could catch on Mauer’s days off (though I hear he won’t stick as a C). 2011 is full, except the backup catcher spot, but 2012 Thome and Kubel will be FA’s.
If his bat’s as good as they say, team’s will find a spot for him. We’d for sure have at least one spot for him in 2012.
Huge trade bate for one, for another, Mauer will only be catching for so long. But that said, it doesnt seem a fit right now. Twins should forget about the yanks depleted farm system and look elsewhere if they are serious.
Baseball America ranks the Yankees farm system 5th overall. If you consider that “depleted”, then what do you call the Twins 13th ranked system.
The Red Sox sabermetric mafia was apparently unavailable for invalid reasoning and someone needed to step in..
^^^^not…as “if”. Wow. I wish I knew what you knew about NY’s farm system…by depleted you must mean “stacked”.
You do realize that the Yankees have one of the best farm systems in baseball currently? They have nearly two times as many quality prospects as the next team (Royals excluded) and I read somewhere the other day that they have the richest crop of arms in all of baseball. The Yankee’s could pull off a Liriano trade and it would barely make a dent. If it does happen, expect to see something like Joba, Nunez, Warren, Mitchell…
richest crop of arms in all of baseball*
*Royals excluded
Guess you’ve never heard of Joe Mauer. Karsch is clueless but worst of all, hes a clown.
Ok? Montero doesn’t figure to stick at catcher, and with Thome’s and Kubel’s contracts up at the end of the season, he has first base and dh available in 2012. But whatever im as clueless as a delusional Yankee fan.
hehe
LOL @ that offer from Cashman
True or not, that is one of the crappiest offers I have ever seen in my life.
what an overpay,
The Yankees would destroy their future if they give up Ramiro Pena.
Dear Michael Cuddyer,
Show some semblance of consistency at the plate and we’ll consider giving you an extension.
– Twins Front Office
haha. really though what was the offer.
The Pena offer didn’t come from Cashman. Charlie Sheen was making crank calls again.
Oh man, “crank” calls works on two levels for that gentleman, if you believe the TMZ reports…
I guess the between the lines of the earlier quote was “there’s nobody available for our dregs.”
If Liriano is such a hotshot then why are the Twins dragging their feet with an extension? Is this Carl Polhad all over again? You want a hot shot prospect for someone who might not be able to outlast Charlie Sheen on the mound? If we have any World Series tickets left at the stadium, we’ll send them your way.
You must be a Giants Fan!
Franky did have the 2nd best XFIP in the world last year, behind only Doc.
Damn, Cashman. As a Yankee fan, if you really offered that, I like you more now.
Okay if Liriano is such a steal why haven’t you tied him up long term? Carl Polhad strikes again? And you want a hot prospect for someone who might not be able to outduel Chalrie Sheen in a playoff game? And pitch in the pressure of New York that scared off Cliff Lee? Curiouser and curioser.
Didn’t mean to repeat my post. Newbie.
Happens all the time to people, it’s nothing new lol
Billy Smith should have countered that offer with Nick Blackburn and Matt Tolbert for Sabathia.
What a joke of an offer by Cashman.
Bill Smith is a joke of a GM when it comes to the trade market, so I actually think it’s quite fitting.
1 bad trade under difficult circumstances (Santana) makes him terrible at trades?
I’d add Garza to that list. I’m not even a big Garza fan, but he was pretty solid for the Rays. Plus, just look at what the Rays got for trading Garza and Bartlett. They got a boatload. Quantity does not mean quality, but I’m guessing some of those guys have a chance (emphasis on guess, I haven’t looked them up to be honest. I just know it was a lot of guys).
I’m, again, guessing that their return for those two guys was better than ours for Santana. We turned Santana into Guerra, Hardy and Rauch plus money to re-sign Mauer. Knowing then what I know now, I would definitely take Santana for the 2008 season and get the two draft picks out of him. And I’m saying that as a big Hardy fan, but Hardy does not equal Santana in worth. Plus, I hated that trade immediately. It’s not even hindsight for me. I hated it from the beginning. It only got worse as time went on.
I don’t even really hold the Santana trade against Smith all that much. He is at fault for some of it, but not all of it. Santana had all of the power. He said where he wanted to go and he said he wanted a ton of cash from that team. That limits the options greatly.
Smith is better at mid-season trades. O-Cab (I’m not a big fan of, but he certainly helped), Pavano, Fuentes, Rauch…I’m probably missing someone. The one I didn’t like and still don’t is Ramos for Capps. Not because I think Ramos is a god, but I just don’t think highly of Capps. I believe Capps is an average reliever and I don’t think an average reliever is worth a top prospect.
Yeah Liriano an Nathan for AJ was the icing on Bill Smith’s poor trade skills.
That was Terry Ryan, the GM before Smith.
DOH! Nice call.
No way Cashman offered that and expected any type of dialog.. Someone is a liar!
That Ivan Nova + Ramiro Pena offer sounds too much like a joke. Nova has good upside, but Pena is a very very poor man’s Nick Punto and I don’t see him as added value for anyone in the league (well, maybe the Tigers and their awful defensive infield). Nova + D.J. Mitchell + Garrison or Laird and you are starting to get at something.
PS: Brandon Inge, forgive me for not taking your name out when I said “Tigers and their awful defensive infield”, you know I didn’t mean you.
“Pena is a very very poor man’s Nick Punto”
Cashman must have thought he was calling Gardy.
I don’t trade Banuelos for Liriano. He’s damaged goods and Manny Banny may be a top pitcher when he comes up. I say offer mid level prospects and Nova and if they don’t bite then say “OK, keep him and you get nothing when he walks”, Liriano’s trade value really doesn’t strike me as high right now. Do they get a draft pick if he signs elsewhere?
You are dead on correct.
Yankees are the only team that is allowed to trade with the Twins?
The Yankees are fixated on Liriano because they still think we owe them a favor after raping them on Knoblauch.
That’s sarcasm right? Please tell me it is.
The Type A comp picks would be more valuable than “mid level prospects and Nova.”
Liriano may not be worth Banuelos. That said, he’s also not signed for an excessive amount of money for a FOR pitcher and there’s no reason for the Twins to trade him unless they get more than he’s worth.
Only a fool would trade Banuelos even up for Liriano. Liriano is often injured and has no upside. Keep Banuelos.
Only a fool wouldn’t trade unproven overhyped prospects for a young stud lefty! Bottom line is the Yanks chances of winning the Wild Card increase immensely with another top SP! Otherwise they could easily be on the outside looking in come October!
er..”Yanks chances of winning the Wild Card increase immensely” ? So I’m taking it that you’re in the Red Sox already won the division camp?
Gotta love how i snuck that in there!
While it did work out in the end (for both teams), the Red Sox traded an unproven Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez for when of the games best young pitchers in Josh Beckett and a great veteran 3B in Mike Lowell.
Am I comparing Banuelos to Hanley/Sanchez and Beckett/Lowell to Liriano? No. But what you said makes no sense. Since when can a player who is not proven (Hanley) not be traded for a good/great player (Beckett and Lowell, at the time)?
Oh, DUH. How can I forget this past offseason, the Red Sox traded an unproven and possibly an overhyped Casey Kelley and a couple of other mid prospects for one of the best 1B in baseball.
You must have failed reading comprehension in H.S.! I said, and i quote “Only a fool WOULD’NT trade unproven, overhyped prospects for a young stud lefty!” Even Charlie Sheen could understand something this simple!
My mistake, human error. However if my reading comprehension is correct on your screen name, it says RedSoxDynasty. Sorry to say, but the Red Sox have not had a dynasty since the 1910’s. Unless they start going on one very soon. But you’ve had this screen name what about 2-3 years after they won the 2007 WS which still doesn’t put them in a dynasty.
Is it “human error” to reply with a dig when youre called out on a lengthy rant in which you were totally wrong? I think its a combination of a lack of intelligence and insecurity! FYI, my screen name is in reference to the early 1900’s dynasty!
Liriano has no upside? He had the 2nd best XFIP in the game last year. He’s a sabermetrics wet dream.
He’s often injured? The dude had TJ at a young age, and took 2 years to come back to form from it. Not unlike most pitchers these days.
He’s also never thrown 200 innings. He had the 2nd worst BABIP behind the 2nd best defensive team in the AL. He does have a high K/BB ratio and GB ratio though.
I never get the complaint about 200 innings. I understand it’s an important number and I agree, but 191 isn’t too far from 200 innings. I would take 191 innings from any pitcher, any year. Plus, he pitched almost 40 innings in winter ball before the 2010 season, so he really did have +200 innings on his arm.
It was that kind of argument that took Blyleven so long to get into the Hall. “Oh, but he doesn’t have 300 wins.” No, he doesn’t, but he has 287 wins which could have easily been +300 if the crappy teams he was on didn’t F him out of run support in so many games.
And don’t misunderstand my point. I’m not saying Liriano is a Hall of Famer. That would be massively stupid, but to seriously worry over a guy being 9 official innings short of 200 is very odd to me.
It seems to me that there is evidence upon evidence that it takes a starting pitcher +2 years to recover from TJ surgery. He was finally good to go in 2010 and he delivered. He was right on schedule of where he should have been. He has ace stuff. He’s not quite the full definition of an ace yet, but he easily has ace stuff.
If you’re like me, you want to see that he can do it again. I won’t fully trust him until he does another 2010 or better. I think I have that right, so do you and so does every one else. I just think it’s very odd to complain about 200 innings when he wasn’t that far off.
Nova and Pena for Liriano? Wonder how quick the phone got hung up in Minny? What a joke!
The Twins need Montero in any deal for Liriano. If they trade him for any less they are very stupid. A package of Montero, Nova,and Nunez. Or Montero and Betances, either one of those two packages and the Twins MIGHT consider trading Liriano.
I’d take Hughes over Montero. Hughes is more of a known quality, while Montero could still turn out to be the next Wieters.
Except that doesn’t make sense at all for the Yankees to substitute arguably their 2nd best starting pitcher for another 2nd best starting pitcher. It would make sense for them to trade prospects for him
I think it would be Pointless for the Twins to trade Liriano to begin with though for now, as long as they are in playoff contention. Why trade your best pitcher?
Trading Hughes for Liriano would be redundant for the Yankees and would never happen!
You have to be kidding or delusional, maybe both.
You have to remember the Twins have the leverage here. The Yanks need a pitcher of Liriano’s caliber and they know it. So the Twins should have a high asking price, either that or the Yanks can buy him in free agency for 2013.
The YANKEES absolutely do not need a pitcher of low quality like Liriano, nor do they need his overwhelming downside potential. Nova will have a better season than Liriano this year as the YANKEE number 4. The YANKEE 5 spot will be filled by whomever wins it in spring training or by whomever develops the quickest in the early spring season. If I recall, the YANKEES only need 2 starts from the 5 spot pitcher for the first month of the season, and they can be filled by any of several candidates.
Then why is the Yankees FO making it known they want to try and acquire Liriano? They know they need a quality lefty to combat the heavy lh line-up of the hated Sox. On paper the Sox are better than the Yanks right now, because of the Yanks rotation. Hence the Yanks will try and improve their rotation.
Baseball is not played on paper. The YANKEE front office for almost always makes it known they are interested in certain players for several reasons, such as 1. test the waters, 2. drive up the cost if the competition is also interested, 3. are truly interested, 4. keep the other guys guessing.
Brilliant. Tell me something I don’t know. The fact of the matter is, the Yankees really want Liriano bad and want to not give up anything for him. So they think by playing reverse psychology the Twins will give him up for nothing. I hope they trade him to the Red Sox and the Sox put the Yanks where they belong. I’m happy everyday the Yanks lose. The Yanks can put-up or shut-up when it comes to trading for Liriano.
Hughes is better and has more upside than Liriano. That would be a very stupid trade on the YANKEES part.
Okay, as a yankee fan you are making us all sound silly. Hughes does NOT have more upside than Liriano, there aren’t many pitchers in the MLB with more upside than Liriano. Liriano’s problem is his durability which hurts his trade value. Thats why the Twins won’t get a haul for him. He has never even pitched 200 innings. Joba + 2 mid level prospects gets the deal done.
I disagree. I think it is you who make YANKEE fans sound silly. Hughes is far better than Liriano now and has so much more upside than Liriano, it is not even funny. Liriano for the deal you propose, I would consider, but still might not want to make.
You realize there are zero peripherals that backup your claim. Hughes is a good pitcher and has a high ceiling but Liriano, when healthy, is downright filthy. His FIP was much lower than his ERA last year mostly due to a high BABIP. Please, do a little research on here before you make ludacris claims. Liriano’s year last year>>>>>>> Hughes year. And I’m a big Hughes fan. Obviously trading Hughes for Liriano is a bad move and as I said above he really shouldn’t warrant anyone of Hughes’ caliber BUT that is only due to his durability. It has NOTHING to do with his talent or ceiling because those are extraordinary.
As I have stated in a previous posts, sabermetrics are for fools who do not know baseball. I love comments like “when healthy”. Here’s another stupid comment you can use..when Joe Schmoe pitches a perfect game he is the best pitcher in baseball.
Oh… so you’re a “how many wins does a pitcher have” kinda guy… I am wasting my time!
Baseball is played to WIN. A pitchers job is to WIN, hold or save. Only utter fools think anything else is more important. Without WINS the pitcher fails, and the team fails. Go, and continue to waste your team with your nonsense.
So Hughes is better than Felix Hernandez then? Continue to live in your dream world…
I think over time you’ll warm up the idea of using statistics to determine which players are best. Better team, more wins. Don’t be afraid to get below the surface. Keep an open mind.
Good thing for the Yankees you’re not in charge of any decision making.
The Cuddyer bit is sad – here’s a guy they gave every opportunity and then some to get it in one bag, he finally does to an extent, they sign him to a solid extension, pick up his 10.5 option for ’11 and he’s “slightly upset” he hasn’t been locked up. Doing magic tricks and printing lame t-shirts doesn’t mean you deserve the Jeter treatment there Chet.
If Cuddy is as loyal as he claims, he should sign for a team friendly deal and be ready to give up RF when Benson and or Hicks are ready to man the OF. Cuddy would be an ideal utility guy/RH power bat off the bench for around 3-5 mil per year.
Keep your minor leaguers Yankees, youll be desparate come trade deadline time.
“-Hughes is not going to be part of the trade. The idea is to improve the rotation by adding not substituting a top rotation guy.”
Just put in “Liriano” where you have “Hughes” and “a trade” instead of “the trade” and that pretty much answers why the Twins don’t need to move him. Out of control speculation by a bored bunch of fans.
—sry, meant for YanksFan’s Quick points.
Except the rumor didn’t come from a Yankee fan. It’s cool. I understand. You’re a Twins fan and you have a “man crush” on Liriano. No problem. I AM NOT SAYING HE WILL BE TRADED BEFORE THIS SEASON AND I’M NOT SAYING HE WILL BE TRADED TO THE YANKEES!!! When you’re ready to have an adult conversation that there’s a chance that the Twins might eventually look to trade him for the reasons mentioned then we can talk. Liriano will be a Twins lifer.
Calm down man – there’s just no need for any more speculation on this. The Yankees called, Twins said no, within an hour more teams called. Happens. No man crush, just our 1A starter coming off a very solid season. They’d be selling low at this point. Twins have a boatload coming off the books after the season, if they contend as they should and he keeps trending back up they’ll keep him. If they’re out of it, they’ll listen. The end.
I’m quite calm.You’re the one who made the comment about “out of controled bored fans”. In actuality the whole Liriano/Yankee rumors began after a reporter claimed that the Twins were open to moving him right after the arbitration case begun. Not sure how that indicates the rumors were fabricated by NY fans.
Let’s be clear. This rumor was started by a Minnesota write, Jor CHristensen of the Star Tribune:
“With six pitchers vying for five spots in the Twins starting rotation, one possible solution is trading Francisco Liriano. Speaking to team officials recently, I’ve been surprised how open they are to this possibility, but the logic makes sense.
Liriano, 27, can become a free agent after the 2012 season. Coming off a resurgent year, he might never have a higher trade value.
One thing is clear: The Twins don’t plan to sign him long term. Last weekend, they avoided arbitration with a one-year, $4.3 million deal. From what I’ve heard, their long-term talks went nowhere, with Liriano’s camp hinting it wanted a three-year, $39 million contract.
Even if that was just a starting point for negotiations — and to be clear, I’m not sure — the Twins were wise to pass.
For one thing, Liriano is still an injury risk. He had arm injuries coming through the minors, he had Tommy John elbow surgery in 2006 and he still has a violent delivery”.
“Let’s say the Yankees grow increasingly desperate after failing to sign Cliff Lee and seeing Andy Pettitte retire. New York’s top rotation candidates are CC Sabathia, Phil Hughes, A.J. Burnett, Ivan Nova, Sergio Mitre, Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia. That group could get eaten alive in the AL East.
By mid-March, if the other five starters — Carl Pavano, Brian Duensing, Scott Baker, Nick Blackburn and Kevin Slowey — are healthy, and top prospect Kyle Gibson looks like the real deal, the Twins might be weighing offers for Liriano”.
Quick points.
-If Liriano can be had w/o giving up Montero, Bets, Bans, Brack or Romine then I would do it provided were not talking some insane combination. Something like Sanchez, Noesi and Adams might do it.
-Hughes is not going to be part of the trade. The idea is to improve the rotation by adding not substituting a top rotation guy.
-Can Twin’s fans stop acting as if Liriano hasn’t had a checkered injury past. That alone downgrades what he’s going to get in return and the Yanks financial ability to absorb the risk doesn’t matter. The reason why we might want him is BECAUSE after Lee there were no TOR straters to acquire via free agency.
-Look at Liriano’s injury history and innings pitched.
2002-80 IP in the minors.
2003-9 IP. I’m assuming he missed the year due to sometype of injury.
2004-156 IP. An increase of 140 IP from previous year at age 21.
2005-180 IP in the minors.
2006-121 IP. Year interupted with injury. Had TJ surgery.
2007-Missed entire season.
2008-Pitched 199 innings. At the age of 24 and fresh off of TJ surgery, he pitches d@mn near 200 IPthe most in his career!!!!????????
2009-136 IP and missed atleast 20 games due to an “arm injury”.
Key point: After the TJ surgery he pitched 118 IP in AAA w/ a 3.28 ERA and 76IP @ 3.92 on his return. The following year he pitched 136 IP to a 5.80 ERA. I’m not quite sure we can completely dismiss the high ERA due to recovery. He did pitch much better the year before which was his actual recovery year.
2010-Great year. Limited his hrs, high GB rate, great peripherals. However, last 10 games he only pitched into the 6 innings 4x and the other 6 games he allowed 22 runs in 28 IP.
Liriano has great TALENT but to ignore the negatives and risks and not hedge thtose red flags vs what you give up in talent sounds stupid.
Did I say quick points? My bad.
The injury history is obviously a HUGE concern and definitely holds his value down a little. BUT, he’s only signed for 1 year @ 4.3 mil!!! If he blows his arm out, non tender him and move on. That is the worst case scenario, but best case is you get the best #2 starter in baseball behind CC for 4.3 mil this year and what 8 mil next year? Then after that you can decide to go long term and actually take on the injury risk.
No. The worst case scenario is that you trade two of Montero, Bans or Bets and Liriano gets injured and in 2012 we find ourselves in the same exact situation, searching for a top of rotation starter w/ one or two less top pitching prospects to have in our back pockets as possible starters. Also, the Yanks could use a young power right handed bat as well.
The money Liriano makes is the least of the Yanks concerns. If he were a FA they would gladly sign him to the 3/$39 he was looking for as an extension.
Oh and then during this offseason, the Twins decide to go year to year rather than extend Liriano @ 3/$39 mil despite being their best power arm. Then two weeks later in ST Liriano’s spring is interupted due to “elbow soreness”?
The Twins are showing signs of concern and some reservations towards Liriano and their long term future. The rumors of them being open to moving him had to come from somewhere and I see no reason for any other team to ignore those concerns as well.
It was shoulder soreness, not elbow soreness. He wasn’t doing his strengthening exercises and all reports since then have said he’s okay now and can pitch.
And I honestly would not want the Twins to do a 3/39 deal right now. He’s going to be making less than $15 million for the next two years. He’s making 4.3 this year. To go from 4.3 this year to 13 next year would be stupid since they’ll be paying him less than 10 million next year.
If he puts up another 2010 season or better then you look into giving him an extension because 8 million (possible 2012 pay) or so up to 13 or so isn’t as far and ridiculous of a jump (when the jump doesn’t need to be made) in pay as 4 to 13 is.
I’m “slightly upset” that Cuddyer is making over $10MM this year on a team that just gutted it’s bullpen due to cost. He should be happy being the most overpaid player in Twins history and focus on helping the Twins win something more substantial than just the Al Central.
It really makes no sense for the Twins to trade with the Yankees now. Trade with the Yankees when they are desparate and looking up at Boston in the standings. From a Yankees perspective, you aren’t getting any younger and are going to need those prospects. Why would you offer much for Liriano? Sure, he can be lights out, but anyone who watches baseball and sees that delivery also knows that the left arm could go flying into the third base dugout on any given pitch.
Other than Banuelos, your top arms have the same injury smear without the demonstrated ability to perform well in the MLB that Liriano has.
Betances – elbow surgery (forget what kind)
Brackman – TJ surgery
Noesi – TJ surgery
Marshall – TJ surgery
Other than Banuelos, your top arms have the same injury smear without the demonstrated ability to perform well in the MLB that Liriano has.
Betances – TJ surgery
Brackman – TJ surgery
Noesi – TJ surgery
Marshall – TJ surgery
I’d love to have a delete button.
Clay Buchholz, Cliff Lee, and Matt Cain have some issues with this best no.2 starter in baseball thing your talking about!
i think banuelos is untouchable. unless its someone like king felix, banuelos isnt going anywhere