Tigers righty Justin Verlander unanimously won the American League Cy Young award, announced the Baseball Writers Association of America. Verlander posted a 2.40 ERA with 250 strikeouts and 24 wins in 251 regular season innings this year, leading the league in all four categories. The Tigers have him under contract through 2014.
Also receiving votes: Jered Weaver, James Shields, C.C. Sabathia, Jose Valverde, C.J. Wilson, Dan Haren, Mariano Rivera, Josh Beckett, Ricky Romero, and David Robertson. Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News provided the lone vote for Robertson, rating him the league's best reliever.
Shields gets a $500K increase in his 2012 salary with the top five finish, tweets Marc Topkin of the St. Petersburg Times.
John Lackey was robbed!
That’s awesome. Congrats to Verlander.
A Big congrats, well earned for him.
You’re thinking of the ESPN CY Yuk award.
The Red Sox were robbed. By John Lackey. lmao.
John Lackey didn’t make them sign him.
the lmao literally made me LOL
The Red Sox were robbed. By John Lackey. lmao.
{gasp} shocker!!!! Congrats Verlander!!!
…and the world is round.
when does NL get announced?
Thursday.
I thought NL is tomorrow and MVP is Thursday?
Also when is Manager of the year announced?
Manager of the Year is tomorrow, they announced that at the end of the AL Cy Young broadcast.
Thanks. Are MVP’s then announced next week? Blaa I hate all these delays.
Thanks. Are MVP’s then announced next week? Blaa I hate all these delays.
is that some sort of a sick joke? David [profanity] Robertson?! The fact he was even mentioned in a Cy Young article is embarrassing. The Yankee writer who cast that vote should be banned from the process effective immediately.
Have you seen what he’s done this year. Its laughable Valverde is 5th, even getting a 2nd place vote.
And the most undervalued pitcher to get voted is Dan Haren. Hell, which SP would have pitched a game in relief in April between his scheduled starts? He has hot a heart, m’boy!
Oh, so Valverde’s 49 for 49 in saves didn’t warrant a fifth place finish? Yeah, not impressive at all.
Considering he’s not even the best relief pitcher in the AL this year, no he shouldn’t be fifth. Try looking at his numbers other than saves.
Saves is the only stat that matters for a closer. I’ll take a closer with a 9 ERA as long as he gets the save every single time — and Valverde’s ERA was a hell of a lot better than 9. Ask Jordan Walden, if you don’t believe me.
Considering he’s not even the best relief pitcher in the AL this year, no he shouldn’t be fifth. Try looking at his numbers other than saves.
Personally, I think Austin Jackson deserves credit for at least two of Valverde’s saves (the game saving catch in LA and nailing Fukudome at the plate for the final out).
robertson had better season than both mo and valverde, he just did his in the 8th instead of the 9th
amazing how you take issue with 1 5th place “honorary” vote that means nothing in the overall scheme of things but say nothing about Velvarde getting 4 3nd/3rd votes.
in that one writer’s defense, robertson was really awesome
For sure. I was surprised that his name was mentioned, but he definitely deserved at least some consideration.
Really, the fact that anyone would find his name being mentioned a “sick joke” is laughable. Every single one of his stats (aside from saves, which are pretty much just a representation of the larger body of work (but only for pitchers who pitch the 9th inning)) was better than Valverde’s.
Picture, if you will, a pitcher with Valverde’s saves total/record and Robertson’s other stats. I give you David Robertson in a few years when Rivera retires. So yes. He deserves the minutia of recognition he got from the Cy Young voters.
I remember Mariano came in like 3rd for Cy voting when he was Wetteland’s setup man. Robertson didn’t deserve serious consideration, but recognition was deserved for being a complete stud.
Wow Romero actually got some votes? Am I hallucinating?
He was pretty darn good. He would have had 20 wins if his could just make couple of runs in his starts.
Not that wins is an judge of the type of pitcher Romero is.
Stop talking about wins. Only teams can win. One player cannot win. This is a team game.
Stop talking about wins. Only teams can win. One player cannot win. This is a team game.
Ricky deserved more than just 1 4th place vote. sub 3 ERA in the AL EAST, im biased because i probably watched atleast 25 of his starts but he was amazing this year. verlander, weaver, sabathia, shields, romero.
you can add Hellickson to that list too. He was really good this year.
no doubt, his peripherals weren’t stunning but there’s no denying the kid can pitch. hard to give the 3rd best pitcher on his own team a vote for mvp. worthy of the roy tho.
you can add Hellickson to that list too. He was really good this year.
Ricky deserved more than just 1 4th place vote. sub 3 ERA in the AL EAST, im biased because i probably watched atleast 25 of his starts but he was amazing this year. verlander, weaver, sabathia, shields, romero.
It’s because the writers like his wife. And the rest of the Blue Jays staff makes him look good.
Its the fact that Ricky was pretty much top 5 or so in every single significant pitching category that makes him look good. Dont let the facts blind you though…
Those are the facts that were blinding me. 6th in ERA, 12th in K’s, 12th in WHIP and 10th in W. I like him and think he’s decent, but he wasn’t top 5 any category.
now rays will consider trading Shields.
We all knew this since mid-season.
Well this isn’t surprising. Congrats nonetheless.
didnt see that coming…
3 Yankees no big deal
Too bad that doesn’t mean anything
Okay?
2 tigers in the top 5 no big deal
When I’s 2 better than 3? Of course it’s a big deal when have you seen a set up man get cy young votes
when one of the 2 is the winner by far? durrr
A setup man that had an ERA of 1.08 in 66 2/3 innings. He also had 100 strikeouts in those 66 2/3 innings, good for a 13.5 K/9. He was fantastic this year.
the yanks could have swept the votes and it still wouldn’t make a difference, it just means that they have the best players but still can’t win
Says the Expos/Nationals? fan
not a nationals fan just support canadian baseball and the 94 expos were a hell of a team
the yanks could have swept the votes and it still wouldn’t make a difference, it just means that they have the best players but still can’t win
“66 2/3 innings.”
A setup man that had an ERA of 1.08 in 66 2/3 innings. He also had 100 strikeouts in those 66 2/3 innings, good for a 13.5 K/9. He was fantastic this year.
the real question is will he win MVP?
he should get the AL MVP.
“Yes, one writer considered Robertson the fifth most valuable pitcher in the American League this year.”
Just to note, voting pitchers for MVP or on an MVP ballot, is not the same as voting pitchers for the Cy Young Award. The Cy Young award specifically goes to the best overall pitcher. In all likelihood, a pitcher who wins an MVP wins a Cy Young Award, but I’m referring to later parts in the ballot.
For instance, in 2010, David Price finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting. CC Sabathia finished 3rd.
CC Sabathia was on 7 ballots for MVP, David Price was on Zero ballots. So as you can see, it does not mean they think Robertson was the 5th Most Valuable pitcher, they just feel, for whatever the heck reason, he was the 5th best pitcher.
That’s fair, I’ll change the words “most valuable” to “best.”
I could have seen Robertson getting votes if it hadn’t been for that walk rate that was pretty close to five per nine.
Aside from that walk rate, he was unbelievable this year.
Unfortunately though he did have a horrific walk rate. The fact that robertson got a vote over Justin Masterson is sad….almost as bad as him making the all-star game over him. Not surprised though, but still pretty bad
Not trying to be melodramatic, but, was there even any other choice? Was there anyone else even in the running? Judging by the result, well.. there.. Wasn’t.
Nope, that’s why it was unanimous. I think a better Prediction would have been, who finished 3rd and lower. Weaver was nearly a definite #2 choice also.
Yes, Weaver is #2, has been since he came into the league.
Yes, Weaver is #2, has been since he came into the league.
I’d take Haren over Weaver, but we’re splitting hairs at that point.
Well deserved. Looking forward to seeing if he can build on this performance next year.
Glad to finally get that out of the way so we can look forward to the MVP showdown.
Bruce Chen didn’t even get a vote. *pity*
They didn’t want him to win the Cy Young AND the MVP.
Voters got it right. Congrats Verlander.
If Verlander won unanimously then how did any other pitchers receive a vote?
It’s a vote weighted on ranking. Verlander was unanimously chosen first.
Thanks for clearing that up
To further clear that up, Verlander received all of the first place votes, which is what made it unanimous. The rest of the pitchers received 2nd through 5th place votes.
“Yes, one writer considered Robertson the fifth most valuable pitcher in the American League this year.”
Haters are gonna hate.
But in all seriousness he didn’t deserve a vote, but that doesn’t reflect what an amazing year he had. He solidified what would have been a shaky bullpen.
Going by the fact that he had zero chance of winning, I think 3rd place deserves some congrats. Good job, James and what a come back from 2010.
Now please keep him, we need a big 4 of Shields, Price, Hellickson and Moore. My pick for 5th would be Davis but with those 4, you can have my dog be the #5 for all I care.
I don’t think a top 4 of Shields, Price, Hellickson, and Moore can be called a Big 4. Both Hellickson and Moore are young and probably be great pitchers in the near future but I can’t see a pitcher with 3 regular season games be in any ones big 4.
He most likely meant potential, which is certainly a possibility. However, its gonna be hard for the Rays to keep them all in the next few years.
Awesome.
Its funny how leading the AL in both FIP and xFIP amongst all pitchers with over 100 IP gets you 4th place.
CC Sabathia: 7.1 WAR 3.00 ERA 2.88 FIP 3.02 xFIP
Verlander: 7.0 WAR 2.40 ERA 2.99 FIP 3.12 xFIP
Yeah, Sabathia was actually better than Verlander, albeit not by much. If Verlander had to pitch in Yankee Stadium half the time, or had a worse defense behind him, his ERA wouldn’t be that shiny, and he wouldn’t have won.
Sorry, Sabathia was not better, and I’m a Yankee fan.
I’m not a Yankees fan, and I’m saying he was, and the numbers support me. FIP and xFIP are simply better gagues of player performance than ERA.
If you say so.
I don’t say so. Statistics do.
The only statistic that says that is FIP. There are no facts on to what is better, but Verlander beats Sabathia in nearly every stat but your beloved FIP.
I’m sorry but better FIP does not mean better pitcher.
Stats are NOT opinions!!!! OH MY GOD
I didn’t say stats are opinions. I said what you find as a Better stat is your opinion. Learn to read.
I didn’t say stats are opinions. I said what you find as a Better stat is your opinion. Learn to read.
You’re right. Stats are not opinions. But “FIP and xFIP are simply better gagues of player performance than ERA.” is an opinion.
^ This
True but ERA is reliant on so many other factors and other players that are not the pitcher at hand, only a person who didn’t abide by the rules of logic would use it over FIP.
For what it’s worth, it didn’t matter what the stats said other than wins and era. These voters do not look at advanced stats often. I’m sure for most voters, they saw 24 wins and that was enough.
But none saw 250 strikeouts and a 2.40 ERA either right?
Also the fact that he had a no-hitter and took like 4 more into the 7th at least. Oha and no hits over 16 innings in one stretch. The guy was simply rediculous this year
You’re right. Stats are not opinions. But “FIP and xFIP are simply better gagues of player performance than ERA.” is an opinion.
I would argue to a degree that stats are indeed opinions. I can take a data set and give you two different sets of results depending on the methodology I decide to use.
If you look at the history of developing “defense-independent” pitching statistics you will find that it has not an exact science. For example, xFIP uses an expected HR Rate based on the league average HR:FB ratio. Some argue that some pitchers do seem to have some ability to affect their HR:FB ratio as their ratios have been better then the league average each year of their career. So it is not as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.
And yet…in the real world, Verlander was better. Step away from the computer and watch a ballgame.
Using sabermetrics to gauge future performance is great. Using it to disprove past performances is asinine.
Did you ever watch Sabathia? He was all kinds of awesome this year. I hate the Yankees as much as the average person does but if Verlander was so “far and away the best” then why don’t the numbers support it?
I thought after Greinke saying he tried to keep his FIP down, and then winning the Cy, all this crap about pitcher W-L and ERA were finally being retired for the illogical dinosaus they are, sigh.
If we’re going off the “did you ever watch” argument then it might as well be backed up by stats. Take a look at their splits when they played teams with a record above .500.
Sabathia turned into simply an above average pitcher. Verlander on the other hand was better against those teams.
small sample scale and whatever..
And unless we were to replicated every variable for every pitcher we’ll never see eye to eye. Even with a smaller sample size the sample size is sufficient to make a judgement.
And unless we were to replicated every variable for every pitcher we’ll never see eye to eye. Even with a smaller sample size the sample size is sufficient to make a judgement.
the problem with small samples is that they aren’t very predictive. he isn’t predicting anything though, so there is no problem
small sample scale and whatever..
“but if Verlander was so “far and away the best” then why don’t the numbers support it?”
The numbers do support it, as do the votes. When a player wins an award unanimously, that should tell you there was no question, he was #1.
Voters routinely make terrible, illogical mistakes.
As I said, when a players wins an award unanimously, there is no mistake.
You’re just bitter that voters and other people don’t use FIP.
Well that I agree with!
Greinke led the NL (and the majors) in xFIP this season, and Brandon McCarthy had a better FIP than either Sabathia or Verlander. Solid years for both Greinke and McCarthy but come on — I don’t know how to disprove the importance of FIP and xFIP any better than that. Solid stats, but they don’t tell the whole story. But everyone in the world except Pete seems to know that.
Not to mention, it’s not like Sabathia even got second place. He was in 4th. So the question isn’t was he better than Verlander, its an answer, no he was not! Good yes, great yes, best, hell no
As I said, when a players wins an award unanimously, there is no mistake.
You’re just bitter that voters and other people don’t use FIP.
Voters routinely make terrible, illogical mistakes.
“but if Verlander was so “far and away the best” then why don’t the numbers support it?”
The numbers do support it, as do the votes. When a player wins an award unanimously, that should tell you there was no question, he was #1.
I’m guessing you didn’t watch verlander pitch this year.
I did, he was fantastic…he was as good as Sabathia.
better to project FUTURE performance NOT past performance…GET IT RIGHT
What you say makes no sense.
What you say makes no sense.
Hey, make CC somehow NOT lead the AL in FIP and I’ll jump on the “Verlander is clearly the best” train.
But…
Oh how i forgot that only Ks BBs and HR allowed are a pitchers responsibility. You do realize BBs and Ks are a matter of luck too dont you because it all relies on the umpires eyes
What you say makes no sense.
Actually, it does. Verlander outperformed his FIP and xFIP this year. We know that. With that, it’s easy to see that he’s not as likely to perform at the same level next year as Sabathia is. However, when looking at awards voting, you have to look at what actually happened, not what ‘should’ have happened, or what may happen in the next season. FIP and xFIP are predictors of future results.
This same argument can be used for Hellickson winning ROY over Nova. Nova’s FIP and xFIP were better, but his actual ERA was over 0.7 higher than Hellickson’s. Hellickson grossly outperformed his FIP this year.
FIP is not a predictor of future results, its to be used the same as ERA:
“Fielding Independent Pitching converts a pitcher’s three true outcomes into an ERA-like number. The formula is (13*HR+3*BB-2*K)/IP, plus a constant (usually around 3.2) to put it on the same scale as ERA.
It was conceived of by both Tom Tango and Clay Dreslough, the latter of who called it Defense-Independent Component ERA. At BP, we are including hit batters in the walks term. The constant we use is both league and season specific – in other words, a pitcher in the American League will have a different FIP constants than a pitcher in the National League. This differs from the presentation of FIP on sites such as Fangraphs, which use one constant for both leagues in each season.”
FIP is not a predictor of future results, its to be used the same as ERA:
“Fielding Independent Pitching converts a pitcher’s three true outcomes into an ERA-like number. The formula is (13*HR+3*BB-2*K)/IP, plus a constant (usually around 3.2) to put it on the same scale as ERA.
It was conceived of by both Tom Tango and Clay Dreslough, the latter of who called it Defense-Independent Component ERA. At BP, we are including hit batters in the walks term. The constant we use is both league and season specific – in other words, a pitcher in the American League will have a different FIP constants than a pitcher in the National League. This differs from the presentation of FIP on sites such as Fangraphs, which use one constant for both leagues in each season.”
Actually, it does. Verlander outperformed his FIP and xFIP this year. We know that. With that, it’s easy to see that he’s not as likely to perform at the same level next year as Sabathia is. However, when looking at awards voting, you have to look at what actually happened, not what ‘should’ have happened, or what may happen in the next season. FIP and xFIP are predictors of future results.
This same argument can be used for Hellickson winning ROY over Nova. Nova’s FIP and xFIP were better, but his actual ERA was over 0.7 higher than Hellickson’s. Hellickson grossly outperformed his FIP this year.
you not understanding that makes a lot of sense….FIP is better to look at what a pitcher may do in the future….not as accurate at looking what a player actually did for a single year….the ACTUAL on field numbers show a better pic…
You don’t know what FIP is.
I know wbat it is and how its calculated. It excludes every hit a pitcher allows except HR. Something which shouldnt be excluded which is why we have WHIP and H/9
which themselves need to be contextualized by BABIP, batted ball profiles, and defensive performance. none of which ERA does, and none of which were done by the voters here
all of you arguing with pete have come to the right conclusion, but for the wrong reasons
How is there a “wrong reason”?
pete: 2+2=10, because math
you: no, 2+2=4, because i just ate a salad
you’re right about verlander, but ERA is a wrong reason; wins are a wrong reason; rWAR is a wrong reason, WHIP & H/9 are wrong reasons
How is it a “wrong reason”. You haven’t answered that. It is of one’s opinion whether FIP or ERA is better. Technically it’s not a Fact, but I think real fans know it’s a fact that W-L are overrated.
ERA wouldn’t be a wrong reason if you were talking about how a pitcher and his defense performed
but when you say “let us compare two pitchers” and then look at ERA and conclude “this pitcher performed better”, you might end up being right, but you will have used the wrong reason. “this pitcher and his defense performed better” is the most one can say using ERA
if you use ERA in conjunction with BABIP and batted ball data (and preferable FIP & SIERA), then you have a right reason. but then “ERA” isn’t really your reason anymore; all of that information is
“not as accurate at looking what a player actually did for a single
year….the ACTUAL on field numbers show a better pic…”
FIP is an actual on-field number; there is nothing theoretical about it. it shouldn’t be used alone, but what stat should?
ERA for the example will give you a “better pic” (more information), but it won’t tell you anything specific about the pitcher’s performance. in a discussion of individual awards, that’s really out of place
Allow me to say I never use ERA alone
In no specific order I use ERA, K, WHIP, BAA. Verlander ranks – 1, 1, 1 , 1
three of those are close to meaningless unless they are used in conjunction with BABIP and batted ball data
ERA and WHIP are FAR from meaningless. I suppose K/BB is better than total K’s.
you are trying to talk about a pitcher’s performance. WHIP, ERA, and BAA are pitcher-and-defense statistics. unless you filter them with BABIP & batted ball data, they are close to meaningless for the purpose of determining pitching-and-not-defensive performance
Then I guess you should be in agreement with Pete and give Sabathia the Cy Young Award.
that’s a crappy guess. if you look at those stats in conjunction with BABIP and batted ball data like i just said, you come to the conclusion that verlander had the better year. same goes for using tERA and SIERA (which – get this – both incorporate batted ball data!)
What you say makes no sense.
you honestly stupid the Tigers have one of the worse defenses in the mlb besides Jackson in center. And did you maybe forget about how he 24 games?
Wow. Just…wow.
Shut up, Verlander was clearly better. Stop being a stupid yankee lover.
He’s a Mets fan.
I’m not a Yankees fan. Im a believer in the truth and Verlander was not better than Sabathia, and the numbers support it.
Hey, tell me that there was a mistake and sabathia actually WASNT leading the AL in FIP & xFIP and I’ll happily agree with you….but whatever, keep believing in an outdated stat that never made sense to begin with. Lets just give the Cy to the guy with the best moustache or something if you want to take it so arbitrarly.
FIP and xFIP are great for projection future performance but not actual performance on the field from that year…..that fact that CC actually gave up more h/9 run etc showed that he wasn’t as good in reality…
and the reason why he gave up more is because he plays in a SEVERE hitters park
so did he give up more BB b/c that park too?
BTW….
CC gave up 123 h in 120 ip in AWAY parks
Ver gave up 88 h in 130 ip in AWAY parks
CC gave up 102 h in 117 ip in HOME park
Ver gave up 86 h in 117 ip in HOME park
do you have anything else I can prove you wrong on?
CC was NOT better then Verlander this year
Except in terms of FIP, xFIP and WAR. He was. You are right, but so am I.
fip/xfip/war are formula’s choosing certain stats and excluding others….there are 2 main sites that have different formulas….the REAL on field stats show a better true performance b/c they are manipulated to reach an out come….FIP and xFIP will show how a player SHOULD produce in the future but that isn’t 100% accurate either….the FACT that the amounts of hits/9-walks/9-ko’s/9- runs etc are a better way to judge how a player ACTUALLY performed for that given season….
you have the correct position in this argument (that verlander had a better year), but you are genuinely confused about FIP
FIP shouldn’t be used alone, but ERA/hits is not the remedy. at a minimum, you need batted ball data, BABIP data, and defensive data
pete is wrong to pretend FIP is the end of the conversation, but he’s right that it trumps ERA+wins
According to bWAR, Verlander (8.6) was higher than CC (6.9),
He ignores it because BWar factors defensive outs. I don’t see how that’s a problem considering Greg Maddux got a ton of those.
so did he give up more BB b/c that park too?
BTW….
CC gave up 123 h in 120 ip in AWAY parks
Ver gave up 88 h in 130 ip in AWAY parks
CC gave up 102 h in 117 ip in HOME park
Ver gave up 86 h in 117 ip in HOME park
do you have anything else I can prove you wrong on?
CC was NOT better then Verlander this year
Comerica Park and Yankee Stadium’s park factors were actually pretty close.
I don’t think verlander could have had a worse defense behind him
Really?
You’re not going to mention that Sabathia had a better offense backing him up (got think that helped him win as well)? Or Verlander’s other periphery stats such as K/9, WHIP, and BB/9 were much better? Sorry, but I’m absolutely convinced the voters got this one right.
And on another note… is there a formula for WAR? I assume Pete got his numbers from fangraphs. But on baseballreference Verlander has a 8.6 WAR and Sabathia has a 6.9.
I don’t care about pitcher W-L. At all. In the slightest.
I did use fangraphs, the argument is that baseball-ref’s WAR is severely flawed, which you can read about if you use the google machine.
” I don’t care about pitcher W-L. At all. In the slightest.”
Neither do I but the way I original read it I thought you implied it. I misunderstood the use of the word “won” in the sentence.
However you are bringing in variables that simply cannot be accounted for. You ask how would it change if Verlander pitched in yankee stadium. Yet one could make the argument that Sabathia pitched better at home thus, in my opinion, rendering the point moot. Also another argument that I brought up elsewhere. Sabathia and Verlander v. teams with an above .500 record, Verlander was clearly a superior pitcher. Even if the evidence is ambiguous otherwise that point alone should give Verlander the clear victory for the award.
Ah, gotcha. Even all that being said, there’s barely a difference between the two. I never said JV was far and away worse than CC, but CC’s performance this year is definitely underrated and (in this thread) disrespected.
Ah, gotcha. Even all that being said, there’s barely a difference between the two. I never said JV was far and away worse than CC, but CC’s performance this year is definitely underrated and (in this thread) disrespected.
There are inherent flaws to fWAR too. Even Dave Cameron acknowledges that.
fWAR is heavily influenced by FIP, while rWAR isn’t.
fWAR is heavily influenced by FIP, while rWAR isn’t.
fWAR is based off of FIP, rWAR for pitchers is more or less based off of ERA, which explains Verlander being that much higher. It also explains why David Robertson was worth nearly 4 rWAR this year in 66 2/3 innings. His ERA+ was 410.
The issue is that the voters are all dependent on dinosaur statistics. Using ERA (unfortunatey) as my argument since that’s the voters argument, Verlander was better on the road than CC was.
Unless the voters open their minds, they got the right pitcher this year.
At least one person understands…thanks.
Well I only agree with you to a point. Verlander was better than Sabathia in a couple key stats:
Verlander SIERA: 2.99
Verlander tERA: 3.09
Sabathia SIERA: 3.14
Sabathia tERA: 3.75
Though we all know that they didn’t vote Verlander in unanimously whilst being intelligent. They got lucky.
WAR is more of a stat used for trying to find an MVP.
finally
I can’t tell if I feel smarter or not after reading all of this.
Well I only agree with you to a point. Verlander was better than Sabathia in a couple key stats:
Verlander SIERA: 2.99
Verlander tERA: 3.09
Sabathia SIERA: 3.14
Sabathia tERA: 3.75
Though we all know that they didn’t vote Verlander in unanimously whilst being intelligent. They got lucky.
WAR is more of a stat used for trying to find an MVP.
Not even close Verlander was by far the better pitcher. He was dominant all season long. Voters got this 100% right
“Voters got this 100% right”
Think about all the times this has actually happened throughout history then ask yourself why this case is so special? I’m not saying CC was better than Verlander, they were both comprable to each other. Let Sabathia pitch in Detroit, he’d have a 2.40 ERA too.
Fangraphs, the site that lists John Lackey as a win and a half better than an AAAA player.
I think it’s time you use Baseball Reference for Pitchers WAR.
Verlander – 8.6 WAR
Sabathia- 6.9 WAR
baseball reference uses RA, which… really doesn’t work, in my opinion.
At least youre polite enough to say its an opinion unlike pete who thinks the pitcher wit the best FIP is the best pitcher in the league and he is saying those are facts
baseball reference uses RA, which… really doesn’t work, in my opinion.
9 TIMES Lackey threw 6-8 IP and gave up 3 runs or less. Do some research. That’s 9 games he was real good in.
Expanding further, in 17 starts Lackey went 5+ and gave up 4 runs or less, so yeah, he was better than a AAAA player. I’ll stick with FG thanks.
13 TIMES Lackey allowed 5 or more runs in a game. And he started in 28 games. Sorry but allowing 5 or more runs in nearly half the games you pitch, is not good.
Right, but he was an ok pitcher for 17 games, that’s valuable. Those other 13 games he stunk terribly….you are saying that those 13 games nullified those 17, which is not how baseball works.
I also excluded the 5 other times he allowed 4 runs. So 18 of 28 allowing 4 runs or more. Im sorry but when you pitch bad in 63% of your starts, you are not better than an AAAA player
13 TIMES Lackey allowed 5 or more runs in a game. And he started in 28 games. Sorry but allowing 5 or more runs in nearly half the games you pitch, is not good.
“9 TIMES Lackey threw 6-8 IP and gave up 3 runs or less. Do some research. That’s 9 games he was real good in.”
So you use runs allowed to measure how well a pitcher has performed, yet ERA is irrelevant to you when determining whether Verlander or Sabathia had a better season …
You can’t even stay consistent in your own logic.
Burned.
9 TIMES Lackey threw 6-8 IP and gave up 3 runs or less. Do some research. That’s 9 games he was real good in.
Expanding further, in 17 starts Lackey went 5+ and gave up 4 runs or less, so yeah, he was better than a AAAA player. I’ll stick with FG thanks.
LOL! Sabathia was not even close to what Verlander did. You can’t even argue it. You can’t assume that Verlander would have done worse in Yankees Stadium.
I cant argue it? I just did.
Except your argument is terrible
…
When one number tells you that a guy had a slightly better year, and
every other number tells you the other guy had a better year, the
rational person would go with the second guy.
Take off your FIP blinders for a second and look at the whole picture.
I would rather have Cano/Tex/Jeter/arod behind me then Kelly/peralta/ingebetemit/cabrera.
So you would rather face sabathia over verlander? Ridiculous.
as stated MANY times…..FIP and xFIP do a good job at predicting what a pitcher will do going forward but not as good of a job at what he’s done…..WATCH CLUBHOUSE CONFIDENTIAL on MLB Network (7et)….it will give you a better understanding of sabr stats
“Yes, one writer considered Robertson the fifth-best pitcher in the American League this year.”
And even more writers considered Valverde the 5th best….
I am not saying he didn’t deserve it. Cause it’s obvious he was by far the best pitcher in the AL this year. But I lost a lot of respect for him when he threw a temper tantrum after Erik Aybar broke up his no no in Detroit with a bunt. It’s Aybar’s job to get on base and he did just that. Verlander’s job is to hold down the opposing team and he did that but you didn’t see Trumbo yapping at him. I know this will draw some groans from saying that bunting in a no no is unethical but I personally see no problem with it.
k cool who care if you respect him or not everyone wants him on their team and you know it…Best Pitcher In The MLB
Sorry. Still gotta go with Halladay… but Verlander has moved to the number 2 spot.
I don’t deny it at all he is the best pitcher in the AL. I might not respect him but i’d love to have him on my team.
I don’t deny it at all he is the best pitcher in the AL. I might not respect him but i’d love to have him on my team.
I’d rather have Halladay. I’d take Verlander over anybody in the AL though except for MAYBE King Felix.
Wasn’t it like a one run game? If so, I’m fine with bunting. If it was 4 or 5-0, then I can see the complaint.
You missed a good game, dude. Verlander did NOT throw a tantrum. Weaver did.
Dude he was screaming at him from the dugout. Weaver snapped too I watched the game. He threatened to throw at him cause Aybar broke up his no no. I’d be upset about losing the no no but it’s baseball the hitters are trying to get on base.
He yelled “Hey, Hey!” and pointed at his hip. You think that’s a tantrum?
A tantrum is what Weaver had.
Re: John Lackey
The Red Sox were robbed. lmao.
Just to clarify that sentence: John Lackey robbed the Red Sox.
(Before anyone attacks me for that statement, it’s sarcasm.)
Just to clarify that sentence: John Lackey robbed the Red Sox.
(Before anyone attacks me for that statement, it’s sarcasm.)
Re: John Lackey
The Red Sox were robbed. lmao.
ON TO THE MVP!
Which is way more debatable.
If the argument is contentious now… just you wait. You ain’t seen nuttin’ yet.
Id go with Ellsbury.
If it turns out to be Ells or Granderson then the thread will be a looooong Red Sox v. yankee thread full of basically childish name calling.
Dont leave out verlander and the pitchers shouldnt win MVP arguments
I don’t think Verlander will win nor should he. It has nothing to do with being a pitcher but my belief is for a pitcher to win an MVP they need an epic year and frankly this one was not. And by epic I mean up there with the best seasons of guys like Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, etc. Furthermore I don’t believe he was the “most valuable” overall.
I think he’ll get a bunch of 3rd-5th place votes and a couple of people will scream that the writers are biased.
No Bob Gibson? He had arguably THE most ‘epic’ season.
Sorry I was sticking towards the modern age. And yes, I would agree that the 1968 season by Gibson was arguably the greatest single season by a pitcher. How many pitchers can say the game had to be changed because they were too good.
Well if anybody pays attention to what the BBWAA has to go by:
There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:
1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
Wouldn’t 1 and 2 hurt Verlander? lol
Ells gets hurt by Gonzalez and Granderson gets hurt by the .260ish average. I’ll go with Bautista :)-
Eh. Mostly people seem to agree that Ells was more valuable to the Sox than Gonzo. I think he’s hurt by the Sox collapse. They aren’t supposed to look at that but face it, the voters look at that.
As for Bautista, well I’m a Sox fan and rooting for Ells and could make a bunch of solid arguments for him. But objectively, I say it should be Bautista.
Wow, an objective opinion by a Sox fan… New found respect my friend… New found respect!
Speaking as someone with Verlander’s face as their avatar/name as their handle, I’d go Bautista too.
Which is way more debatable.
ON TO THE MVP!
As do people that don’t know what the HELL they are talking about
As do people that don’t know what the HELL they are talking about
JV is a stud congrates !!
Congrats! It seems like half his wins were against the Twins.
breaking news
Must be Burnett’s best friend by now.
Must be Burnett’s best friend by now.
historic how? for AL relievers?
I did and my mom died years ago.
CC is that you?
Awsome insight. I use facts and stats, you say “you are dumb”
Awsome insight. I use facts and stats, you say “you are dumb”
No, I’m just a guy who looks at things subjectively and wants the actual best player to be awarded. Verlander was awesome, but he was hardly “far & away” the best. I’m saying if CC won, it wouldn’t be that big a farce.
Goddamn Leyland for ever using Valverde in non-save situations. In the two games he won and his 49 save situations, Valverde only allowed 3 ERs in 51 IPs. I guess what you’re saying is Valverde can’t be considered an elite reliever until he steps up when he’s being used as a mop-up guy as well, and I can understand that. It sure is frustrating to watch as a Tigers fan.
(Though not anywhere nearly as frustrating as it was to watch Todd Jones or Fernando Rodney.)
fun stat: 0 (the number of Tough Saves for valverde in 2011)
That’s just not going to happen.
What does Barley represent? Is it in the beer? Damn, then he gets a 5th place vote for sure!
It should be a pic of mark sanchez
Thanks be to Benoit…