It’s not often that elite players are traded multiple times during the prime of their career. Phillies ace Cliff Lee is one of those few, writes Matt Gelb of the Philadelphia Inquirer. He’s been dealt three times – each trade coming at a time when he was both healthy and extremely effective. The 11 prospects acquired for Lee in various trades have all been a disappointment, with Justin Smoak and Carlos Carrasco the only current major league contributors.
The 35-year-old is expected to return to action on Monday from an elbow strain. Unlike the last time the Phillies traded Lee, he now comes with concerns about age, contract, and health. As such, Philadelphia may struggle to find the kind of prospect package necessary to justify a trade.
- Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com talks about the Phillies trade preferences in his latest video. They would prefer to deal Lee, A.J. Burnett, and Marlon Byrd over Cole Hamels and Chase Utley.
- Also per Morosi, the Mariners are under pressure to answer the trades made by the Athletics and Angels. He mentions pitching prospects like Taijuan Walker and Brandon Maurer as interesting pieces to other clubs. If the Mariners fail to pull of a blockbuster for David Price, they’ll probably focus on right-handed power.
- The Cardinals are moving Shelby Miller to the bullpen for an unspecified amount of time, tweets Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Matheny said the move was to rest the right-hander. Based on Goold’s tweet, he may start again as soon as Wednesday. Earlier in the season, Dave Cameron of FanGraphs provided some evidence that Miller looked “broken.” He’s certainly pitched below expectations with a 4.29 ERA, 6.03 K/9, and 4.46 BB/9.
Why do national writers think they are reporting news by saying the Phils would rather trade Byrd than Utley?
Fran Charles said tonight could be Price’s last start with Rays because doesn’t start again intill after Trade Deadline.
Papelbon/Lee to Mariners for Franklin,Ackley,Austin Wilson,Ramirez and so on then Utley/Byrd to Giants fir Chick and other Prospects Mayberry/Kendrick to Tigers? Howard Yankees? Hamels Royals,Dodgers or Cardinals? Rollins Pirates?
Mariners don’t need bullpen help, especially Papelbon. They either will get more starting pitching or a RH bat.
Papelbon to Royals or Baltimore could use more Bullpen help
The Royals have an excellent closer. They don’t need Papelbon. Baltimore could use him. So could San Francisco
I doubt Ruben Amaro has the ability to get all that done, but If we’re playing fantasy-world I would say I think Lee/Byrd to Mariners makes more sense and fills more needs.
Burnett to O’s.
Then Hamels to Cards/Red Sox (teams he can’t block deals to)
Then seeing Hamels & Lee both gone see if Utley will be more open to being traded and then Utley/Papelbon to SF and Rollins to Oak.
Howard is unmovable
Rollins prefers to stay on East Coast and Pirates could use an upgraded at SS or Reds if could play 2B.
Tigers need BP help and maybe a LH hitting platoon bat. Don’t see how Kendrick/Mayberry fit.
Dirks is coming back.
Supposedly. He was shut down during rehab. And we won’t know if he can hit his weight til after the deadline
There is still 12 more days until the trade deadline.
Why wouldn’t he start again until after the deadline?
Maybe because Rays have days off and so on.
There is still 12 more days until the trade deadline.
Why wouldn’t he start again until after the deadline?
I don’t know what the Mariners should go after. They lost 3-2 after starting pitcher held opponents to 2 runs. David Price can also do that, and we still loose 3-2.
If Matt kemp was a free agent and 5 years $107m was the price to acquire him… Should they? I’m sure Dodgers would take some money off that total and we would need to trade.
Seattle could pull off a double move. Tai Walker and others for Price. Then move some more pieces to Dodgers for Kemp. Maybe Dodgers could take Zobrist and pieces.
Jack Z will be on the hot seat if he doesn’t make a move. Angels and A’s got better with their upgrades of SP and bullpen pieces. They need at least one bat, maybe two just to improve that lineup.
That’s true because if you consider how many division games are remaining (pretty much all of Sept is now divisional) and two of the teams in your division just made your offense weaker by improving their pitching.
Even if Seattle isn’t seriously thinking they are chasing the division title and focusing on the 2nd wildcard they are going to have to win games against the Angels and A’s just to hold onto that 2nd wildcard.
It would seem to me that the M’s need a bat(or two) more than they need another pitcher. Already have a formidable rotation, especially come playoff time when one of the rotation gets dropped.
That being said, not sure what is out there for a bat. Kemp isn’t what he was before his injury(.266/.329/.425 with 8 hr this year). Not sure he’s the MVP runner up he was a few years back.
Outside of that, what bats are available? Chase Headley wasn’t exactly tearing it up(and the Ms have a solid 3b in Seager). Matt Joyce I suppose might be available, but he’s a lefty too. Doubt the Royals are selling on Butler as they’re still fighting for the AL Central title. Dayan Viciedo with his sub .300 OBP isn’t much(if any) upgrade over what the M’s have.
Hard to find an impact bat that’s available.
See what it will take to get Ian Kennedy. He’ll take a significant talent to acquire but not the ransom Price will command. I’d also like to go younger for OF bats. A few very successful hitters in AAA being blocked on their MLB teams. Nats could use relief help. Send Maurer to Washington for AA OF and Everett native, Steven Souza. He’s only hitting over .370 with 15 bombs, 21 doubles and 21 SB in the international league. Slugging .670.
M’s are buyers not sellers. They don’t want minor league players right now.
The only issue I take with this is that Souza is in AAA. Which just makes him more enticing. I didn’t realize he was from Everett. If the Nats are really looking for another shortstop, the M’s can trade either Chris Taylor, or Brad Miller (and call up Taylor). But if they’d take Maurer for Souza that would be a great deal.
Too bad that won’t happen. Z will just trade for another gritty, mediocre veteran who won’t help much. They’ll end up re-signing him because the Mariners worship cheap has-beens like Endy and Raul and Hart and Bay and…
Fascinating that Lee’s been traded for 11 prospects who never really panned out. Does make you wonder about either talent evaluation or the odds of someone actually being a useful and productive ML player.
Chase Utley has 10 & 5 rights which gives basically a full no-trade clause. He has said that he won’t waive it & intends to remain in Philly. As for Cliff Lee, he has a 20-team no trade clause. This list includes the Yankees, to whom Lee is often linked. However, what most people forget is, Yankees fans spit at Lee’s wife. She doesn’t want to go to New York. So guess what? Lee doesn’t go to New York.
This whole “Cliff Lee won’t play for the Yankees” is severely overblown, I think. It all stems from this one report of a fan spitting on his wife during the World Series in ’09. I don’t think Lee has ever actually said he wouldn’t play there, and there has never been any concrete reports about the incident either.
I feel like whole storyline of “Fans were nasty to his wife so he won’t play for the Yankees” was drummed up by the NY media to save face when he chose the Phillies. Because it’s impossible for New Yorkers to accept that Cliff Lee would simply want to play for a team other than the Yankees.
Besides, even if that report is 100% true, its been nearly FIVE YEARS since his free agency, and a LOT can change in that span of time. After all, didn’t David Price once insist he’d never play for the Yanks because he didn’t want to shave– but then backed off that statement just recently?
Lee has said that he prefers not to pitch in New York because of family reasons. Read into that what you want. He also said that he prefers to pitch in the National League and if he leaves Philly he’d like to go closer to home, which is Arkansas. St. Louis would be a good fit if they don’t get Price. Even if he would go to the Yankees, what would they give the Phillies in return? They have a horrible farm system. They won’t give them Betances. The Phils have to get something of value in return & the Yankees don’t have that. Not to mention, are the Yankees really contenders? Even if they get Lee, they aren’t good enough to win the American League. There will be trade partners for Lee. The Phils could also hold on to him & trade him in August or wait to the off-season once he proves he is healthy. That way the haul back would be higher. As for Price, it doesn’t matter if he would shave or not, there is no way the Rays are trading him to the Yankees. They don’t the quality prospects to land him
A horrible farm system has 2 different players making appearances on top 50 midseason prospect lists?
It’s not top 5, but It certainly isn’t barren.
The Yankees farm system has produced very little in the past 5 years. How hard is it to produce 3 or 4 good players? Even bad teams do that. Most of the Yankees so called top prospects in recent years haven’t panned out. They have no prospects that are near major league ready. Two prospects in the top 50 isn’t great. The Yankees farm system hasn’t been good for years. If Lee is healthy, the Yankees prospects aren’t enough of a return for a pitcher of his quality. Another team, like the Cardinals, could offer a whole lot more than the Yankees
There are 30 teams. If you can place 2 that would put you above average, 1 can put you on the borderline if teams like the Cubs have 5.
“The Yankees farm system has produced very little in the past 5 years. How hard is it to produce 3 or 4 good players? Even bad teams do that.”
Who exactly has the Phillies farm system produced?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Nova, Phelps, Warren, Betances, etc isn’t fantastic but it’s better than I have seen come up to the Phillies.
And I’m assuming for some reason that a 23 yo 2B in AAA with a .306/.419/.516 line isn’t near mlb ready?
I never argued that they were top 5 system. Just strongly disagree with your assumption that it is barren.
I’ll give you Betances, but the other 3 guys are very inconsistent. Nova has benefited from a lot of run support. The Phillies don’t have a good farm system either. They’ve traded most of their prospects away. The Phillies will want a quality young pitcher in return. The two pitching prospects that the Yankees are said to have are both in A. That isn’t want the Phillies need. They need pitchers who are closer to the big leagues. The Yankees don’t have that. Other teams do, especially if the Cardinals get involved. They have a lot of quality pitchers. The Yankees can’t top the Cardinals if it comes down to those 2 teams. The Phillies would like to trade Lee but they don’t have to trade him for the sake of trading him. They don’t have to settle for a lesser deal.
Gamel,Williams,Heathclott besides Catchers is what the Yankees have at Triple-A but do the Phillies need those types.
The Yankees top 2 pitching prospects are in single A. I’ve seen a lot of the Yankees AAA pitchers this season & quite frankly, they haven’t been that good. The best pitcher they had was Greene who is now up. A lot of the other guys have been hit around. Unless it becomes a 3-team trade with another team sending a pitching prospect near Major League ready to the Phillies, I don’t see it working with the Yankees (if the can convince Lee to waive his no-trade clause which isn’t a guarantee).
Severino is in AA.
Most teams don’t have any great pitchers at AAA. Even fewer have great pitchers at AAA after they lose 4/5 of their opening day rotation.
There are some teams that have quality pitchers in AAA. St. Louis & Oakland for example. They’ve done a good job drafting and adding depth to their pitching staff. The Yankees haven’t. They haven’t had guys come up and do the job until Greene. Even the Blue Jays have had Stroman come up and do the job. There are teams with quality pitching prospects in AAA. The Yankees aren’t one of them. Severino just got called up to AA. He isn’t close to being ready for the majors. I still all this talk is moot because I don’t think Lee agrees to go to the Yankees
If Cliff Lee won’t go to the Yankees it’s because he doesn’t think they can win a World Series. Cliff Lee wants to win a ring. Chase Utley has a ring, Cole Hamels has a ring, Jimmy Rollins/Ryan Howard/etc… all have their ring. Cliff Lee came to Philly because he thought Hamels/Halladay/Lee/Oswalt would result in a ring (and the Phils made him close to as much as the Yankees)
Utley and his wife live in San Fran in the off-season in a place they have there. I think he’d waive it to go to San Fran (especially if players like Cliff Lee or Cole Hamels are traded away)
The Yankees can’t win the World Series this year. They don’t have enough pitching even if they get Lee. In the past two days, Utley has said multiple times that he wants to & plans on finishing his career with the Phillies.
Yes, and I’m saying that you revisit it if signfiicant players are dealt away. If Utley looks around and sees Cole Hamels in St. Louis or Boston, Cliff Lee in Seattle, Burnett in Baltimore. Marlon Byrd in Seattle/KC. Maybe that changes his mind. I’m in Philly, I know he likes it here, but at the end of the day when his career is over he’s not making his home in Philly. He already lives outside Philly when the season is over.
If he sees a complete rebuild and the team being Florida Marlins young for most of the remainder of his career maybe he waives it to go to San Fran and compete and be where he wants to make his home.
Their are mean fans from every single team. Just because any team is on their no-trade list I wouldn’t put much stock in it. When you are making $25MM a year as a pitcher you don’t really bother putting teams like the Rays/A’s on it, because there is no way they can afford you anyways. A NTC isn’t always about where you would not play. It is all about leverage. You can use it to get traded to a true contender, you can use your preferences.
I don’t see why NYY would trade for him. He’s expensive, coming off a fairly serious injury, and going to cost prospects/players. That’s the kind of move you make if it gets you into contention. With CC and Tanaka down, I don’t see how Cliff Lee puts the Yankees into WS talk this year… not to mention the subpar play they’re seeing from 2b/3b and the under performing Beltran/McCann.
Just doesn’t make sense to do it… IF Tanaka/CC were healthy(and CC pitching decently) and IF the offense was performing well(or at least up to the players career norms) then I could see it. It’d at least put the Yankees in talks of possibly contending…
I agree. The Yankees aren’t winning the American League this season, even if they would trade for Lee. In fact, there is still a good chance they miss the playoffs even if the get Lee. They don’t have enough starting pitching and their lineup hasn’t been great, especially when you consider all the money they’ve put into it. There are several teams that are better than the Yankees
Chase Utley has 10 & 5 rights which gives basically a full no-trade clause. He has said that he won’t waive it & intends to remain in Philly. As for Cliff Lee, he has a 20-team no trade clause. This list includes the Yankees, to whom Lee is often linked. However, what most people forget is, Yankees fans spit at Lee’s wife. She doesn’t want to go to New York. So guess what? Lee doesn’t go to New York.
“He’s been dealt three times – each trade coming at a time when he was both healthy and extremely effective.”
Not quite true. He was also traded along with Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips for Colon back in the day. He wasn’t the headliner there, but was still a trade, and that was one of those trades that kind of makes the other 3 pretty bad, and shows emptying the farm for a star can come back to destroy you.
That trade didn’t really destroy anyone. Neither the Expos or the Indians did much after that trade, so I wouldn’t say it’s a bust for either side, either. Considering Colon had a great career afterwards (especially w the Angels, even winning a CY in ’05) says that, value-wise, the trade wasn’t exactly as lopsided as you imply.
But team control is important. Colon was under control for half a season, and Lee and Sizemore alone put up 58.6 fWAR for their years of team control, which includes their stints with other teams. Then you also have Phillips being a solid regular for many years. That trade was especially lopsided. What Colon did for the Angels in ’05 is absolutely irrelevant, they traded that talent for half a year of Colon.
Actually it is true. When he was dealt to Cleveland Lee was coming off a year in high a ball that saw him post a 2.79 era, strike out 129 in 109 innings. I’d call that extremely effective.
“He’s been dealt three times – each trade coming at a time when he was both healthy and extremely effective.”
Not quite true. He was also traded along with Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips for Colon back in the day. He wasn’t the headliner there, but was still a trade, and that was one of those trades that kind of makes the other 3 pretty bad, and shows emptying the farm for a star can come back to destroy you.
The Mariners’ horrible offense should be all the pressure Z needs to make a deal.