After last night’s Game Five loss, the Royals have now faced a 3-2 deficit in all three of the franchise’s World Series appearances. In 1980, K.C. was eliminated by the Phillies in Game Six and in 1985, the Royals (who were actually down 3-1) came back to defeat the Cardinals and win the Series. While we wait for Tuesday night’s game, here are some items from Kansas City…
- Top Royals prospect Kyle Zimmer has left the Arizona Fall League with a shoulder issue and will see Dr. David Altchek, ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick tweets. MLB.com ranks Zimmer the No. 2 prospect in the Royals organization and the No. 47 prospect in the game. Baseball America, meanwhile, ranked Zimmer No. 26 overall in its midseason list. Zimmer had opened eyes in the AFL, with ESPN’s Keith Law writing (Insider-only) that Zimmer and the Pirates’ Tyler Glasnow were the best pitching prospects he’d seen. Zimmer missed most of the 2014 season with shoulder troubles, so his current issues aren’t new.
- The Royals heavily pursued Carlos Beltran last offseason and offered the veteran slugger a three-year deal with a fourth-year option, Joel Sherman of the New York Post writes. Kansas City’s offer would also have paid Beltran more than the $45MM he received from the Yankees on a straight three-year deal. (Last winter, ESPN’s Buster Olney noted that state tax differences between Missouri and New York would’ve meant Beltran would’ve taken home more money with the Royals’ contract, even if the total dollar value was less than $45MM.) In the end, however, Beltran ended up signing with the Yankees because, in part, he playing for a big-market team would help his chances for the Hall of Fame.
- Royals hitting coach (and former Cubs manager) Dale Sveum is still interested in managing, Gordon Wittenmyer of the Chicago Sun-Times writes. “I’m not holding my breath. It’s just the nature of the beast,” he says. “If somebody calls, they call.” Sveum says he doesn’t worry about having lost the Cubs job now that he’s in the World Series with Kansas City. “It definitely doesn’t hurt,” he says. “We all do this for this, no matter what capacity you’re in.”
“Beltran ended up signing with the Yankees because, in part, he playing
for a big-market team would help his chances for the Hall of Fame.”
Assuming these are his words, I think Carlos is completely wrong here. If he wanted to say he wanted to play for the Yankees because at the time they looked like more of a playoff/championship team than KC, that’s one thing. But as far as market size goes, that’s completely irrelevant
For one thing, the Indians and Pirates have more HOFers than the Red Sox, Phillies and Dodgers. The Giants (23) have the most and 7 more than the 2nd place team (Yankees, 16). And 24 if you include Bonds. Not saying San Fran is a small market but it’s far from the biggest.
Beltran isn’t going to the HOF. Mediocre batting this year, and the following two years are going to be awful.
I didn’t say he is a HOFer, but I don’t think choosing NY over KC would increase his chances. He’s about a 1-2 WAR player now at the age of 37. I think most of the BBWAA HOF votes know by now whether he should be in the HOF or not.
For the record I’d vote no also. Hall of Very Good.
Actually he was a about a -0.2 to -0.5 WAR player now at age 37. Now he might be able to rebound some but considering he is either going to provide awful defensive value or absolutely none at all if he DH’s I’d be surprised to ever see him posta 2 WAR again.
I could convince myself to vote in Beltran, but only if we assume that Jim Rice is the floor for the HoF now. Typically we consider a Don Drysdale/David Cone like pitcher and Willie Stargell/Joe Gordon type player (all of these are ~60 bWAR) to be the floor for the HoF. Beltran has…. 67.5!? Maybe we should reconsider since his peers in bWAR are Eddie Murray and Ernie Banks.
You maybe shouldn’t be judging his HoF candidacy on one season and on two others that haven’t even occurred yet.
San Francisco is a pretty big market and that franchise was in New York for more than 70 years.
That’s true, though it includes Oakland in its metro area and nobody calls the A’s a large market team (and they aren’t). Good point about the New York Baseball Giants though.
When the Giants and A’s go head to head on TV in the Bay area, the Giants outrank 7-1 – and that has been going on for well over a decade.
There is no comparison at all in the way the area follows the 2 teams.
I never compared the teams. All I said was Oakland is included in the SF Bay Area market (as is San Jose).
As a metropolitan area, the Bay Area is 5th in population. The city of San Francisco however is only ranked 14th.
I think the point is that players on teams that are followed nationally such as the Giants, are perceived by the public and the national media in a much more favorable light then those that play in KC, Oakland, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Phoenix,etc. – unless it’s a team like the Big Red Machine or the Swingin’ A’s that contend for a period of years.
Fair enough
Oakland probably does draw a bit from SF but they clearly are playing on a different level which is reflected by their payrolls.
I think it is difficult to just look at the number of representatives a team had in the HOF because some of them may have played in a big market for part of their career but went in under the club they played for most of their career. I think a player considered in the “Hall of Very Good” can gain more recognition if they play very well on a big market club (especially, to your point, if they are winning) even it is only for a couple seasons because the media exposure those clubs receive and thus get Hall of Fame status.
There is a big wealth difference though. Oakland is like nys Newark.
Would have been interesting to see how Beltran would have changed the chemistry of this year’s Royals. …. Would they have been better? I’m assuming he would have been the full-time DH, taking ABs from Butler. (Maybe even Butler gets traded). … A Butler/Beltran DH platoon, however, would have been really interesting and potentially effective.
No way the Royals would have signed Beltran to platoon the DH spot.
He would have been in place of Aoki, which would have been a huge improvement.
How, exactly, would Beltran have been a huge improvement over Aoki in RF this year?
Defensively, probably not. With the bat, yes. He would have given more options for LH bat at DH. Against a RH pitcher, you put Dyson in CF, move Cain to Right, Butler sits, and Beltran DH. Against LH Pitcher, Beltran in Right, Butler DH, and Cain in Center. Defense takes a small hit, but did you WATCH the cartoons going on with Aoki on the field this year?
Aoki had a very good offensive year. He got big hits, worked pitchers and set the table. Him not playing in SF has hurt the Royals offense.
Nori is 0-8 in the World Series. The absence of his bat in the WS is not hurting them. He had good splits against lefties during the regular season, but during the post season, he is batting .200. ALSO, I am not saying that Aoki didn’t have his moments ever, but I think Beltran would have been an upgrade on offense. Tell me this, would you pay to bring back Nori, or would you rather have someone else in right?
Carlos Beltran was sub-replacement level this season. Nori was a better overall player. Citing eight ABs in the WS doesn’t change this. Beltran would have been a downgrade this season.
It is well documented that Beltran always wanted to play for the Yankees. I don’t know where the HoF angle came from.
Ever since he signed with the Mets and probably even before then Beltran has been talking about getting into the HoF.
Beltran has been in the HOF discussion for a while. Since 1950 he’s 23rd among all OFer in WAR. He’s ahead of other guys with HOF numbers such as Gary Sheffield, Sammy Sosa, Andre Dawson, Vlad Guerrero, Ichiro….and the extremely overrated HOFer Jim Rice.
Beltran is not getting into the Hall of Fame with those numbers. No chance. Maybe if he didn’t have so many injuries…
Beltran in the HOF? I don’t see any chance of that. If he had started his career in New York perhaps he would have had a chance but since the first 6 years of his career, some of his best years, were performed in the obscurity of KC I can’t see it happening
Even if Beltran started his career in NY, all else being equal, his numbers would still be the same. We’d still be saying his numbers aren’t good enough for the Hall.
If you believe in just transplanting numbers into a different scenario exactly as they are, which isn’t really realistic.
I don’t really understand this sentiment nor the above one about him having better chances to make the HoF in a big market. Playing for the Mets in New York actually hurt his chances, imo, because the NY media was very brutal to him for supposedly not living up to his contract for the Mets. They were wrong, but I think he still gets viewed in that light. If he’d played his entire career in KC and put up those numbers, I think he’d be viewed a little better.
WAR leaders from 1950 – 2014 among OFers
23rd – Beltran (63.2)
25th – Gary Sheffield (62.4)
28th – Sammy Sosa (60.3, easily a HOFer without PED suspicion).
30th – Andre Dawson (59.5, a HOFer)
34th – Vlad Guerrero (56.5, many say who is a HOFer)
36th – Ichiro (55.3, easily a HOFer)
45h – Jim Rice (50.8, an actual HOFer who IMO shouldn’t be one, but it is what it is)
And again for the record, I wouldn’t vote Beltran in, but Sheffield and Sosa are in without the PED links, Vlad will likely get in, Ichiro is a shoe in, and Andre Dawson and Jim Rice are already in.
He had some sensational post-season games. Tremendous ability – an honest 5-tool player. Had some good years as well. Great guy, sometimes a very good leader. Not a HOF’er.
Completely agree
I’d vote for him. He still has a few seasons to potentially add to his numbers but even now, I think he should be in. By traditional numbers, he’ll probably end up with over 400 HR, 500 doubles, 1500 RBI, 2500 hits, and 300 SB. Factor in his once stellar defense (gold gloves), his postseason performances, his very high SB% (I’m not sure if he’s still got the record on that but I know he once did), 10 All-Stars, a ROY, and I think even by traditional measures, he’s a HoF.
He’s also, like you’ve noted, pushing 70 career WAR. Then again, I’m an inclusive type person when it comes to the HoF.
There really isn’t an indicator with WAR and even if there was it seems questionable that you could use it beyond the top 10 list.
In the list you can also find:
13) Larry Walker – Last HoF ballot (his 4th) 10.2%
15) Andruw Jones – Questionable to get into the Hall
18) Tim Raines – Last HoF (his 7th) 46.1%
19) Dwight Evans – Out in his 3rd ballot.
21) Reggie Smith – Out in his first ballot
22) Jim Edmonds – Unlikely to get into the Hall.
Saying Beltran is #23 in WAR among OF since 1950 just ultimately doesn’t make a case for him either way.
Oh I understand, I’m just pointing out that his value has been worth as much if not more than other guys in the hall or other guys with HOF numbers.
I was surprised to see Walker as 13th actually.
Well he did play in without a doubt the greatest offensive park of all time for 9 full seasons.
How is Andruw Jones in the question for the HOF?
10 gold gloves (call them meaningless all you want but voters look at this), over 430 HR’s, I wouldn’t vote him in though but he’s up there with Beltran.
Tremendous irony for Beltran, who would have gone to the post-season this year with KC, and ended up really devaluing himself in NY. On the other hand, one could have made the argument that if Beltran had performed as was projected, perhaps the Yankees, with all of their issues, might have snuck in. Beltran was below replacement value, and It’s reasonable to assume the Yankees thought they would get closer to 3 WAR. Beltran needs to recover and put up more in the last two years of his contract if he’s ever going to go beyond being thought of as a marginal candidate. I know the stats crowd likes his WAR and his body of work, but I think the rest of the voters are a little more lukewarm
I was thinking the exact same thing; and also its funny that he snubbed the royals thinking they werent going anywhere, and he’s watching them on tv in the world series
Don’t act as if I’m saying it because he’s on the Red Sox by the way. If you want my honest opinion, the most overrated HOFer is Phil Rizzuto. I find it funny how people call Jeter overrated but not Rizzuto. Jeter won’t even be the most overrated Yankee shortstop in the HOF.
I just hope David Ortiz doesn’t get into the HOF. One of the most overrated guys in basebeall.
Ortiz isn’t overrated. He’s one of the most clutch guys EVER. However his name is Linked with PED’s. Not a single players name that has been linked to PED’s is in the HOF yet. Ortiz will not and should not be the first.
Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro (already off ballot now), Schilling, Piazza, Bagwell….none in the HOF and none might even make it in. Ortiz does not deserve a pass. That, and the fact that he’s a DH, may hurt him.
Yep, he tested positive in 2003 for something that has never been said what it was. Very fishy situation.
Schilling wasn’t linked to PEDs. If you’re referring to his testimony before Congress he was there because he was the most vocal about getting PEDs out of baseball.
Technically you’re right but until we know what it is, it’s still linked. Could have been legal, could have been illegal. Did he test for steroids? No. Did he have a positive test? Yes. I think until we find out what it is (and there’s a chance we may Never find out what it is), he won’t get in.
There was a story last year about Schilling saying the Red Sox encouraged him to use PED’s. Look it up. I’m not saying That’s what is leaving him out of the hall, but that is my best guess because he isn’t getting a very high percentage of the vote.
They didn’t say what it was yet because it’s under court-ordered seal
All the PED stuff aside, if Edgar doesn’t get in because of the whole DH/half a player thing, there’s no way Ortiz should either
Edgar is not in because his numbers don’t rank among the best anywhere. A 7 time all star, 5 silver sluggers, on 5 MVP ballots (3rd was his best finish), 309 HR, and 1261 RBI
Much like Beltran, the Hall of Very Good.
I personally like the DH but “All Time DH rankings” is not a real ranking if you ask me. A DH is nothing more than a utility player that bats every day. Their career numbers should be looked at as opposed to players who play a majority of their career in the field (Ripken, Chipper, Jeter, Ichiro, etc.)
I don’t like the DH myself, but I don’t think that they should be held out of the HoF solely because they don’t play defense, which I believe is clearly the case with Edgar. I don’t think it’s fair to judge him based on HR’s because he was far from a pure power guy, and RBI is a pretty meaningless stat. He’s a career .310+ hitter with 147 OPS+ which is pretty ridiculous and right in line with or exceeding that of many current HoF’ers. At any rate, my point was that if he doesn’t get in, Ortiz shouldn’t be in the discussion either.
Rev, that’s probably the best argument I’ve heard anyone make for Rice. He benefited from the period he played in. He had one terrific season, a few others that were quite good, and the rest were of lesser value. During his peak, he was in the top few pure hitters in the game. His peak wasn’t particularly long, and I think he got in more on reputation and a concerted home town push, but there was stretch of time where he would have been on the short list.
His resume might have more with the low vote totals than his link to PEDs. Blyleven took until his final ballot to get in and Schillings resume does not compare fairly to his. He may get in but it might be awhile since the HOF voters like to rank your worthiness based on the number of ballots you are on.