To me he seemed to just being thorough in explaining why RBI is not as good an indicator of skill as other possible sources since it depends heavily on the results of the people in front of the hitter (in addition to other factors).
The real defensive ones are those with their heads in the past who can’t deal with the fact that what they thought about RBI is not really true. I can understand. You grow up thinking RBI is the best stat ever, like I did. You marvel at Hack Wilson’s record 191. Then someone explains to you how it’s not very illustrative.
Those that are unwilling to see it objectively get defensive, insisting it’s a great stat. But if you really think about with an open mind you see it is highly influenced by situations beyond the hitter’s control. It also supposes that hitters can pick and choose when they get their hits. As if a guy knows ahead of time he’ll go 2 for 4, and selects those 2 hits for when runners are in scoring position.
It’s random based on what teammates hitting in front of you do. Granted good hitters will have lots of RBI, but it is so random that a guy with 10 or 15 more RBI than another guy isn’t reliably better based on the RBI stat.
to say RBIs mean nothing is silly. there is some skill required to produce a good number of RBIs, even if guya get on base ahead of you. just hitting weak pop-ups and grounders rarely scores runs. clearly its far fron perfect, and should never be a main discussion point about a player, but its something that has use within context (i.e. producing a large number of runs from a low spot on the order, or producing many more then anyone else on one’s team)
No one says RBI don’t mean anything. But the stat can be very misleading. Instead of the example of weak pop-ups and grounders, in other words, bad hitters, you should be looking at guys who are good hitters that don’t have a lot of RBI because his teammates aren’t getting on base ahead of him.
Depending on the teams they’re on, you can have a so-so hitter with more RBI than a good hitter. I agree, 100+ RBI is an indication of a good hitter having a good year, but it’s such an imprecise stat, and there are far better stats to quantify all that.
To imply that the RBI means something also has to mean that some hitters aren’t trying to get on base if there’s no one on base. But the hitters job is to get on base, period. Giving a positive stat for failing at what their only job is, is when people stop believing.
How you can dismiss a historic 40 40 season with just ops+ stat amazes me. Nobody is doing close to what acuna has done this year let alone from the lead off spot.
those who say Acuna will certainly not be a MVP finalist are absurd for this reason. obviously 40-40 is not the end of the discussion, but it certainly should distinguish him from other candidates, whose total stats are actually not that much better. Acuna, also is just as good, if not better, then Yelich, Bellinger, and Rendon. To dismiss his case outright is absurd.
Damn it Darkside, I really WANT to agree with you.
Good as/better than Bellinger? Maybe. His production has regressed to something more like his previous 2 years so his present OPS is starting to look like an aberation.
Rendon. I can see an argument for this. Rendon is having a career year and you simply can’t treat those years like the norm.
Yelich. Okay this is wear I struggle to agree even if I try and squint in just the right way. I suppose you can argue this if you mean that Acuna MIGHT have more production to come because he’s 6 or 7 years younger. But when it comes to present production Yelich is the man. His current production is a repeat from last year so he DOESN’T lool like he is going to regress into lower production. Maybe Acuna will even get MORE productive than he is. We really don’t know where his ceiling is but for now, Yelich is the top of the NL.
His defense stinks, for one. Yelich, Bellinger, and Rendon and Marte are all massively better than Acuna, like, on a different tier. You are insulting all of us by saying Acuna and his 19 doubles and 170 K belong on that tier.
Despite what Tim Dierkes says OPS+ is a great stat. It tells you a lot. Tim prefers wRC+, which admittedly is better, but usually those 2 stats are within a point or 2 of each other. And unlike counting stats, OPS+, factors in the important element of. park effects. With Yelich leading the league at 178, 120 doesn’t seem that impressive.
It’s a good stat yes but you don’t look at players numbers off one stat or even two you look at the whole line. As a whole acuna has done more then yelich or Cody B. Acuna is a premium defender at a premium defensive position, he leads the NL in stolen bases and is a lead off hitter hitting 40+ hrs. Leads the NL in runs and is top 12 in rbis in the NL.
Imagine being such a homer to honestly look at Bellinger’s season and then look at Acuna’s and think they’re even remotely close. The audacity!
Look, Acuna’s not even the best player on his own team, let alone MVP. He’s elite but not even close to Bellinger, Yelich, Marte and Rendon, those 4 are on another planet to Acuna’s season. But Jeff was correct, Acuna has multiple MVP seasons in him, but not this one, not by far. He doesn’t even have 20 doubles yet and leads the league in strikeouts (a thing some voters don’t like), its pretty clear what his gameplan is and its the kind of one he can only get away with now. But he will adjust and improve.
Homerism aside, can you not understand Bellinger and Yelich are in another class to everyone in the NL? And Marte, Rendon and Realmuto are ahead of Acuna too. I’d give Scherzer and Degrom MVP votes ahead of him as well and that’s how things are probably going to play out in real life.
“Slow your roll, Nico Hoerner fans. He wasn’t shaking in his boots for his debut, which is good. And he is indeed able to make contact, as expected. Beyond that, we don’t know much at all from one night. He has a sub-.400 slugging percentage in Double-A. I don’t think he’s a slam-dunk regular 2B/leadoff hitter for a contender by any stretch.”
I didn’t realize slugging % was the metric of choice to evaluate a leadoff hitter and middle infielder?
So outlandish that guy literally thought after ONE game that Hoerner was worth a shot at the 2019 2B job, like my dude, he’s probably not even going to be in MLB at all in 2020. He’s far from a polished prospect and absolutely needs months at AAA in 2020.
Pointing out similarities with the Marlins might just have been the most disrespectful thing you could say about a team lol.
If you really think about Jeff’s justification it makes sense
Todd is quite defensive it seems about his disdain for the RBI. Weird.
To me he seemed to just being thorough in explaining why RBI is not as good an indicator of skill as other possible sources since it depends heavily on the results of the people in front of the hitter (in addition to other factors).
What disdain?
The real defensive ones are those with their heads in the past who can’t deal with the fact that what they thought about RBI is not really true. I can understand. You grow up thinking RBI is the best stat ever, like I did. You marvel at Hack Wilson’s record 191. Then someone explains to you how it’s not very illustrative.
Those that are unwilling to see it objectively get defensive, insisting it’s a great stat. But if you really think about with an open mind you see it is highly influenced by situations beyond the hitter’s control. It also supposes that hitters can pick and choose when they get their hits. As if a guy knows ahead of time he’ll go 2 for 4, and selects those 2 hits for when runners are in scoring position.
It’s random based on what teammates hitting in front of you do. Granted good hitters will have lots of RBI, but it is so random that a guy with 10 or 15 more RBI than another guy isn’t reliably better based on the RBI stat.
Was the commenter who defended RBI as a skill banned permanently?
to say RBIs mean nothing is silly. there is some skill required to produce a good number of RBIs, even if guya get on base ahead of you. just hitting weak pop-ups and grounders rarely scores runs. clearly its far fron perfect, and should never be a main discussion point about a player, but its something that has use within context (i.e. producing a large number of runs from a low spot on the order, or producing many more then anyone else on one’s team)
No one says RBI don’t mean anything. But the stat can be very misleading. Instead of the example of weak pop-ups and grounders, in other words, bad hitters, you should be looking at guys who are good hitters that don’t have a lot of RBI because his teammates aren’t getting on base ahead of him.
Depending on the teams they’re on, you can have a so-so hitter with more RBI than a good hitter. I agree, 100+ RBI is an indication of a good hitter having a good year, but it’s such an imprecise stat, and there are far better stats to quantify all that.
To imply that the RBI means something also has to mean that some hitters aren’t trying to get on base if there’s no one on base. But the hitters job is to get on base, period. Giving a positive stat for failing at what their only job is, is when people stop believing.
How you can dismiss a historic 40 40 season with just ops+ stat amazes me. Nobody is doing close to what acuna has done this year let alone from the lead off spot.
I don’t think he dismissed it as much as said other people are having better years
those who say Acuna will certainly not be a MVP finalist are absurd for this reason. obviously 40-40 is not the end of the discussion, but it certainly should distinguish him from other candidates, whose total stats are actually not that much better. Acuna, also is just as good, if not better, then Yelich, Bellinger, and Rendon. To dismiss his case outright is absurd.
Damn it Darkside, I really WANT to agree with you.
Good as/better than Bellinger? Maybe. His production has regressed to something more like his previous 2 years so his present OPS is starting to look like an aberation.
Rendon. I can see an argument for this. Rendon is having a career year and you simply can’t treat those years like the norm.
Yelich. Okay this is wear I struggle to agree even if I try and squint in just the right way. I suppose you can argue this if you mean that Acuna MIGHT have more production to come because he’s 6 or 7 years younger. But when it comes to present production Yelich is the man. His current production is a repeat from last year so he DOESN’T lool like he is going to regress into lower production. Maybe Acuna will even get MORE productive than he is. We really don’t know where his ceiling is but for now, Yelich is the top of the NL.
Absolutely incorrect in every possible way.
His defense stinks, for one. Yelich, Bellinger, and Rendon and Marte are all massively better than Acuna, like, on a different tier. You are insulting all of us by saying Acuna and his 19 doubles and 170 K belong on that tier.
Despite what Tim Dierkes says OPS+ is a great stat. It tells you a lot. Tim prefers wRC+, which admittedly is better, but usually those 2 stats are within a point or 2 of each other. And unlike counting stats, OPS+, factors in the important element of. park effects. With Yelich leading the league at 178, 120 doesn’t seem that impressive.
It’s a good stat yes but you don’t look at players numbers off one stat or even two you look at the whole line. As a whole acuna has done more then yelich or Cody B. Acuna is a premium defender at a premium defensive position, he leads the NL in stolen bases and is a lead off hitter hitting 40+ hrs. Leads the NL in runs and is top 12 in rbis in the NL.
Imagine being such a homer to honestly look at Bellinger’s season and then look at Acuna’s and think they’re even remotely close. The audacity!
Look, Acuna’s not even the best player on his own team, let alone MVP. He’s elite but not even close to Bellinger, Yelich, Marte and Rendon, those 4 are on another planet to Acuna’s season. But Jeff was correct, Acuna has multiple MVP seasons in him, but not this one, not by far. He doesn’t even have 20 doubles yet and leads the league in strikeouts (a thing some voters don’t like), its pretty clear what his gameplan is and its the kind of one he can only get away with now. But he will adjust and improve.
Homerism aside, can you not understand Bellinger and Yelich are in another class to everyone in the NL? And Marte, Rendon and Realmuto are ahead of Acuna too. I’d give Scherzer and Degrom MVP votes ahead of him as well and that’s how things are probably going to play out in real life.
“Slow your roll, Nico Hoerner fans. He wasn’t shaking in his boots for his debut, which is good. And he is indeed able to make contact, as expected. Beyond that, we don’t know much at all from one night. He has a sub-.400 slugging percentage in Double-A. I don’t think he’s a slam-dunk regular 2B/leadoff hitter for a contender by any stretch.”
I didn’t realize slugging % was the metric of choice to evaluate a leadoff hitter and middle infielder?
So outlandish that guy literally thought after ONE game that Hoerner was worth a shot at the 2019 2B job, like my dude, he’s probably not even going to be in MLB at all in 2020. He’s far from a polished prospect and absolutely needs months at AAA in 2020.
2019 National League Manager of the Year is…?
Mike Shildt, if the Cardinals win the central.
That was my first instinct. The problem is no one who isn’t a Cubs homer ever really doubted the Cardinals.
Remember when people talked about Bellinger hitting .400?
Because….he….was…. ???
the andrew miller thing:
is it possible he turned down the rangers instead? (since they train in arizona).