TODAY: The Dodgers continue to be “very aggressive in pursuit of” Clevinger and Lindor, USA Today’s Bob Nightengale tweets.
DEC. 19: Indians righty Mike Clevinger is drawing trade interest, per Robert Murray (Twitter link), although the team is said to have put a “crazy high” asking price on the soon-to-be 29-year-old. The Padres and Dodgers are among the clubs to have at least inquired on Clevinger, although there are quite likely others, given the sizable demand for starting pitching, the dwindling supply in free agency and Cleveland’s recent trade of Corey Kluber.
Interest in Clevinger isn’t much of a surprise. He enters his age-29 season with three years of club control remaining and a sterling 2.96 ERA with 10.3 K/9, 3.3 BB/9, 0.9 HR/9 and a 40.6 percent ground-ball rate over the past three seasons (477 2/3 innings in total). Clevinger missed about two months with a teres major strain last year but otherwise hasn’t had a notable injury since undergoing Tommy John surgery as a minor leaguer back in 2012.
The Indians’ front office is widely believed to be working with a slimmer budget this season than in recent years, as ownership has opted to scale back spending after reaching record payroll levels in 2017-18. That payroll preference was perhaps the primary reason that Kluber was moved — as opposed to holding onto him in hopes of receiving a better offer this summer — and it’s part of the reason that the club will at least listen to proposals on players like Clevinger and superstar shortstop Francisco Lindor. But president of baseball operations Chris Antonetti and GM Mike Chernoff have repeatedly stated that they expect Lindor to be their Opening Day shortstop; Antonetti reiterated as much in an appearance on MLB Network this week (video link). And while there’s been no declaration on Clevinger’s status, he’s likely viewed as a similarly vital piece of the team’s core.
Clevinger is projected by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz to earn $4.5MM in his first trip through the arbitration process this winter, so he’s nowhere near as pricey as Kluber ($17.5MM) or Lindor ($16.7MM projected salary). And, because he’s controlled for three more years and his salary isn’t yet prohibitive (relative to Paul Dolan’s apparent spending preferences), one can imagine that it would indeed take a staggering offer to pry Clevinger from the organization’s grasp.
Elite prospects like Gavin Lux and Dustin May have been frequently mentioned in trade rumblings surrounding the Dodgers and Lindor, and it stands to reason that the Indians would have a similarly high ask to consider parting ways with Clevinger. While he may not match Lindor in pure 2020 value, he’s about 25 percent as expensive and can be controlled a year longer than Lindor. Essentially, fans hoping to see their club secure a talent the caliber of Clevinger or Lindor should make a list of the young, controllable players with whom they’d be most reluctant to part … and then expect that at least one and more likely two of said group would be at center of such a deal (in addition to some lesser prospects).
cheapskates
Brutal if your an Indians fan. If there trying to save money he’s under control and not making a lot lol
A head scratcher
Depending on the return.
@Badacidtrip69
Is it really? I mean sure they can get a nice prospect package but that’s exactly it. Prospects. If they trade him they might as well signal a rebuild. It’s like they do this every 5 years. Clevinger is just entering his 1st arb year. He’s likely to be affordable. At one point the Indians were averaging over 3 mil for 6 or 7 years. 2019 was down for the 3rd straight year at about 1.7 mil. It’s like the fan base is starting to wane knowing the owners aren’t going to go all in to win and then inevitable rebuild. It’s a shame. Good city.
Wait a minute…Dodgers say they are interested in Mike Clevinger and that’s a head scratcher? EVERYONE’S interested in Mike Clevinger. I’m interested in Mike Trout.
too bad your wife is not interested in you….
Head scratcher from Cleveland’s perspective.
Depending on the return…………….
@ Avory;
Here’s what appears to be going on…….
The Indians got to the 2016 WS when the Dolan’s finally found a minority investor – John Sherman. I heard from a Cleveland sportswriter that the money Sherman invested had gone into that run. That money was gone by 2018.
Sherman bought the Royals recently. He had to “divest” his interest in the Indians. That means he had to get his investment back to take control of the Royals. I’ve read or heard nothing about anyone buying his stake. Consequently, the cash poor Dolan’s have either agreed to pay Sherman off (possibly over a period of time) or had to take a loan out which will be excessive.
If you have any information I’d appreciate it. I don’t live in Cleveland and don’t follow their media on the Internet.
My guess is that something funny is going on. I believe that both Francona and Antonetti extended to the same time as Lindor’s contract (Chernoff possibly as well). Should Francona retire after 2021, it may force the team going up for sale – Antonetti and Chertoff would have their choice of FO positions around MLB. The Dolan’s are like people that buy a McMansion, but can’t afford to landscape or furnish it. Same as the Parking Lot attendant that bought the Dodgers. Don’t know who would possibly invest a billion-plus dollars to keep the team in Cleveland. Could see investors wanting to buy the team and move it to Las Vegas, Nashville, etc.
Stay tuned!
I’ve heard the same thing – except that I’ve heard the Dolan is insistent on taking out dividend payments every year that make his return a 45% IRR.
Sherman left and put his interest back onto Cheapo Larry, who now is trying slash payroll by at least $50 million per year to pay back Sherman, while telling people to buy tickets and show up for “TribeFest”.
Same old, same old with Larry Dolan and his whole family – Matt, etc. They are scam artists who caught lightning in a bottle by having an incredible Front Office (most of whom left in disgust to head up teams in Minnesota, Toronto and Pittsburgh because they hated working for Dolan).
Now they are cash strapped yet again, because they need way too much cash to support their other outside activities. So this sell-off is going to be a big one – Kluber, Lindor, Clevinger, Santana, this year, and next year, Bieber and Ramirez are all getting dumped for whatever costs as little as possible.
These people are frauds. I’ve heard that they plan to ask Cleveland for a new 100% taxpayer-built stadium by 2025-2028, and if they don’t get it, well, enjoy baseball while you have it Tribe fans.
Great baseball minds working in that Front Office; but a horrible ownership.
CrewBrew your wife is interested in me
@ The Ghost of Bobby Bonilla;
Wow!
Back to being an AAAA team and developing players, FO people, and coaches for other MLB teams.
Sorry to hear it.
that dirty girl 🙂
Sweet comment brosef
Lol
But good that your wife is
@The Ghost of Bobby Bonilla
Utter nonsense.
More like the Dolans are responsible stewards of a charter member of the American League.
Now you tell me which is more reasonable: that: front office personnel are fleeing to other franchises because they hate the Dolans? Or that it has been such a great place to work that young, talented people keep flocking to the organization? And once they are associated with and learn from one of the most respected franchises in baseball, other teams come knocking with offers of greater responsibility elsewhere?
Yeah, that’s more likely than your fairytale, that’s for sure, but then, it wouldn’t comport with your conspiratorial Dolan hate-fest.
Neither did the taking on of a partner fit with your narrative. The Dolans wanted a partner to help shoulder the burden of financing operations. The Dolans would never have taken on a partner if they were making money hand over fist like most allege. But again, it was an inconvenient truth and flew in the face of “greedy, lying Dolans” narrative.
I posted this elsewhere, but again, this commenter over at Fangraphs summed up the franchise’s predicament in common-sense terms, and none of it has anything to do with stuffing gobs of money in ownership pockets: Read and weep:
“The Dolans sold Sportstime Ohio(Now FoxSports Ohio) in 2013…and they used that money for the Swisher and Bourn free agent signings.
The Indians estimated gross revenue for 2018 was 280 million dollars.Out of that they have to pay taxes and everything else that owning a ball club entails.
The first level of luxury tax (207m) is 75% of their gross revenue.
No one can run a sustainable business without positive cash flow,a major league payroll that takes up 45% of your gross revenue has got to be very near the break even point.
The equity value in the team the Dolans have accrued since 2000 is on par with what they would have received if they would have just invested the money (11.5%/year based on 765m dollar profit on a 325m dollar investment) so hardly the gold mine it is being portrayed as.
Plus, you can’t spend equity, you can only borrow against it……like Art Modell did when he owned the Browns [how’d that work out?]
No other owners in baseball spend their personal wealth to make payroll why would you expect the Indians owners to?
The Indians have had a sustained run of success and spent money, yet attendance has dropped every season since 2017.
Good luck finding a buyer for that type of a franchise.”
Good luck indeed. But never let the truth get in the way of a good old-fashioned hatefest. I’m not saying the Dolans are angels, but neither are they deserving of the scorn they get. There are lot better ways to invest their money. Clevelanders may rue the day the Dolans are gone. If they ever do go, I’m betting they extract a promise that the new owners remain in Cleveland, not that it can be guaranteed forever, and not that we deserve such consideration. The irony is that the Dolans likely care more about the team and Cleveland than many of their alleged fans do.
That is an extremely excellent comment, Avory.
A real view, different than what most want or seem to believe.
Thank you for that post!!!
I totally disagree that the Dolan’s are broke. They have the money, they’re just too freaking greedy to spend on the team!
But other than that, you made a great post!!!
Finally, more people are realizing what con-artists and frauds the Dolan’s are!!!
MLB needs to remove the Dolan’s from owning the Indians.
If someone new buys the Indians, keeps them in Cleveland, and actually spends money on the team, attendance will go through the roof in Cleveland.
Although, attendance barely even effects overall income for MLB team owners.
Thanks SFT. My “diifferent” view usually stems from the fact that I’m more appreciative that there is a competitive, stable baseball team wearing “Cleveland” on the jersey than I am angry that we haven’t won a championship in my lifetime.
Baseball in Cleveland will always mean more to me than a ring. I know they are not mutually exclusive, but which way you fall on that spectrum often determines the prism through which one evaluates the current ownership.
You think 11.5% is a typical ROI? What color is the sky in your world?
Friedman dosent have the stomach for the big deal. They would be able to get both Clevinger AND Lindor for prospects without leaving a hole.
Lux, Ruiz, two of Gray, Gonsolin and Mat and Jeter downs and Verdugo would be more tgen enough to get both
@arby58
First of all, rich people don’t live in the “real world.” Money begats money, that’s why the rich get richer, generally speaking. They have ways to make greater returns at less risk than you or I.
Also, we’ve been on a tear in the stock market during the time in question. I’ve been saying it’s unsustainable for twenty years. And I’ve been wrong for twenty years.
One day I’ll be right. Eventually.
Come on Avory, you must be a shill for the Dolan’s?!?! How can you seriously keep defending these cheap and greedy money hungry Dolan’s???
Like I said in a different post, only Art Model will ever rank lower on my list of team owners.
I remember hearing a story on either the radio or TV about how when the Jacobs’ owned the Indians they would buy steaks and lobster and such for not only themselves but for all of the teams staff on opening day of the season each year. When the Dolan’s bought the team and asked what type of food they should get for the staff on opening day and they were told that traditionally it was steak and lobster, they had looks of shock on their faces, and they got hamburgers and hotdogs from the vendors for the staff.
That was reported by someone who was covering the Indians in the press at the time.
Now, I’m not saying that it’s important to spend a lot of money for food for the staff to be good owners. But it’s another example of the greed and cheapness of that mega-rich family.
It was pointed out by Jeff Phelps today on 92.3 WKRK that the Reds (As was also reported on here) are trying to trade for Lindor despite the fact that they play in a much smaller market than the Indians do.
Wake up! The Dolan’s are cheap and greedy.!
@ Avory;
What you wrote is all well and good.
Unfortunately, it does nothing to counter what I wrote, in fact, it validates it.
1. Fact – John Sherman bought the Royals and had to divest himself of his Indians holdings.
2. His takeover of the Royals was approved. That would not have happened unless he had closed financial ties with the Indians.
3. The Indians dumping Kluber and saving his salary was understandable. The Indians listening on Lindor with 2 years left and seeing if they can make a haul is understandable. The Indians listening on one of their 2 aces with 3 years on a controlled contract is a RED FLAG!
4. The national media are jumping on the Indians as being out of money and forced to sell off their better players. What brought this about? The roster they have can win the AL Central in 2020. Why do they need to trade off their better young, cheap, controllable players?
Sorry, I’m not buying that this is all understandable behavior.
You’ve written nothing to show that the Dolan’s have money to run the franchise. I grew up an Indians fan. I saw numerous ownership groups in the late 50’s and 60’s that were “stewards” of the team. They did this exact same thing. They had no operating capital. Gabe Paul saved the franchise from being sold and moved. It wasn’t until the Jacob brothers bought it in the 90’s, hired Hank Peters to run it, and sunk money in, that the team finally won – in fact, for over 30 years they had NOT ONCE been in a pennant race come early August. Then even when they won, one by one all the good players left. Dick Jacobs sold at the top of the market with Manny and Thome due for new contracts in the next few years. The Dolan’s overpaid, and watched the team disintegrate. They didn’t have to operating capital to keep it going – they don’t now.
They may be wonderful people. Many that work for them say they’re left alone to do their jobs. But the fact remains, they don’t have the money to do their jobs well. The fans know it, and they’re not buying anymore.
Well said, Avory, and I agree with you. The problem with MLB is if favors the large market teams. I am afraid it will get worse in the next CBA. It is hard for a small market team to compete for any length of time. The fact that the Indians and Rays, for example, have stayed competitive shows how well operated each organization has been.
Nice, Crew Brew. Such a punk.
Every time I see you’ve commented on something, I can count on it to be offensive and cowardly. Why cowardly? If you would ever say something like that to my face, I’d gut you like a fish you pos
The Dolan family is worth about $6 billion. The attendance has hit as high as 3.7 mil. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Dolan would invest some out of pocket money into the team and lock up their core., Maybe the fans would come out again. The last 3 years attendance has been in decline and dropped about 300k down from 2 mil.
Sadly have to agree. Bad baseball is better than none.
@ Vandals Took The Handles
I’ve never opined whether or not the Dolans were rich or poor or in-between. My contention is that Tribe revenues are what they are, and it doesn’t matter who is likely to own this team, the resources available for payroll would be roughly the same.
I find it interesting that you subscribe to the belief that the Dolans are basically too poor to operate the Indians (which is why they’re so cheap) while most Tribe fans seem to think they are extremely wealthy but greedy and cheap SOB’s who should fund the team out of their personal largesse. Those are certainly two completely incongruent point of views!
I honestly don’t believe either of those stances. If the team was poor or cheap, it would show in minor league operations, international signing and development (& baseball acadamies), minor league instruction, and inability to attract front office talent. There’s no evidence the team is suffering in the important aspects of running a team. Major league payroll and player evaluation is a tricky science for small revenue teams….I need a lot more evidence than what I’ve seen so far to make different judgments of the franchise.
I will say listening on Mike Clevinger surprises me, if it’s anything more than due diligence. I know Mike is getting more expensive, but I’m wondering if it’s more than that. A concern over long-term health? Discouraged by the inability to sign him long term? I’m puzzled. They must think it’s possible to extract long-term value that can exceed his present value, but that’s awfully speculative unless you are unequivocally bowled over.
Badfinger? The band or medical condition?
Might as well trade everybody with any value. They Kluber trade was basically a salary dump. Glad I’m not a Indians fan. I feel sorry for the fans.
Cheapskates because they receive calls about him? He’s drawing interest, they’re NOT actively shopping him around.
that must be the same “crazy high” asking price that Cleveland wanted for Kluber from the Angels?!
Reflects the overall economy in Cleveland. No body making big money in the city.
Will not happen for at least two years
And they will lose a lot of leverage and return value.
and maybe win a central division and make noise in playoffs. dang
Clevinger would cost a massive haul, even more than the Pirates gave TB for Archer, I presume. I just don’t see a team giving up the required prospects to actually seal a deal.
Theoretically. But the Dodgers and Padres wouldn’t trade their top prospects for prime Mays or KG Jr. That’s how stubborn they are.
Yeah, clearly it’s the same executives from 20 years ago
The return for Tampa looks much better now than when the trade was actually made. Glasnow and Meadows were obviously talented, but they were both starting to lose some of that prospect shine with Pittsburgh. Getting out of there appears to have helped them significantly (which doesn’t seem like a coincidence when you look at Cole too). I think Cleveland should top that haul with no problem – but again, that’s referring to their value at the time of the trade, not now.
@Saint Chris
I think Pittsburgh clearly overpaid so that comparison isn’t realistic. Glasnow wasn’t a prospect at the time and he had a horrible 2017 which sort of depressed his value but in essence, they traded 1 former top 50 prospect (Glasnow), one that was a top 50 prospect at the time of the trade (meadow) and a top 50-75 prospect in Baz.
I tell you what, the Pirates have no idea how to develop their pitchers. Both Cole and Glasnow really found their way once they were traded elsewhere.
Good for the Indians brass. The men stayed aboard the Titanic 100 years ago too.
pull the trigger Friedman…enough BS already…Lux, May, Ruiz, Pollock for Lindor and Clevinger
Still might not be enough–and that’s a massive haul.
Cleveland wouldn’t take pollack in that trade
Yeah cause they just got deshields?!?!
No, because his contract is terrible.
Because the entire point of this is to shed salary not add
If they took DeShields, they will take AJ.
You’re missing the point. DeShields is going to make around $2-3 million next year. Pollock’s contract is terrible. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
Pollock has absolutely no trade value and there’s no way the Indians would want to pay him. Him being in the deal just makes the Dodgers have to add even more to the offer. Take him out and I’d jump at the deal if I’m the Indians. There’s zero chance Lux isn’t at minimum above average. He’s a stud.
Of course they would.
Replace Pollock with Verdugo.
Never happen.
The Indians would never take Pollock back unless the Dodgers paid his salary. Which I guess could be possible. Nobody wants Pollock at his contract.
I say replace Pollock with Joc Pederson. He can play outfield and DH. Have the Indians throw in a lower level minor leaguer.
You can forget it. The Rangers just offered Owen White and Pudge Rodriguez out of retirement for Clevinger.
Add in verdugo and Edwin Rios and you have a deal.
It would take May and Lux to get Lindor.
It would take Verdugo, Ruiz, Pederson+ for Clevinger
Dodgers don’t even need Lindor.
Everyone need Lindor
No open? Then make open!
Great yes? A lot, maybe!
This better not happen.
What a dumb article. “Mike Clevinger Draws Interest.”
You may as well title it: “Big Markets Think Cleveland is Stupid & Poor And Asks If They Are Interested in Giving Up First-Born Children–Attractive Ones Only–For a Bag of Beans.”
Replace “think” with “know” and there’s your headline.
@ Avory;
See above.
The Indians had to pay off Sherman.
Sorry, don’t buy it.
Low key one of the best pitchers in the game.
Not Sunshine. Nooooo. That would hurt the pitching depth.
Crouse, Huff, Palumbo, Thompson and Apostel.
Texas doesn’t have the ammo for this.
Agreed. Crouse and Huff are really good prospects (I’m less bullish on the other three), but I’m not sure they can compete with some of the other teams with deeper systems.
Yes they do. If they add another slugger like Jung/Wendzel and they still have Winn, Allard and Burke to offer. Heck maybe they ask for Minor so they can stay in contention anything can happen.
Texas doesn’t have the ammo. I agree.
I mean theoretically if they want to empty the farm out; there might be a deal to be made. But Cleveland doesn’t want to rebuild and get a bunch of guys who are years off. Texas can only offer that.
We all know how well the Archer trade has worked for the Pirates. Bet they wish to reverse that one.
Yeah, that has a lot to do with this.
Funny how the Dodgers are in on every player. Yet never trade or sign any of them.
exactly Vin, exactly…
because they dont *need* a lot of the players they *want*. for example, they dont *need* Lindor with Seager on board.
Because every trade deal starts with May and Lux and their unwilling to give either of them away.
If you guys want to make a deal, you’re going to have to package one of them with other promising prospects.
My point is they really aren’t interested. If they were they would pony up the resources to acquire them.
I want ATL to be in on this. We already know how he looks in a controversial team’s logo.
Hahahaha
The Indians should keep their name but change the logo to a bowl of curry.
Wonder what kind of deal it would take for the Dodgers to get both of them –
LOL oh man i hope people comment on this thought. Srsly interested in what some people would suggest….
Lux, May, Ruiz, Verdugo, Seager and Strippling.
AllinTX
Maybe the next Dodgers brass will consider it. After the ones now die laughing if they read that.
Probably somewhere along the lines of seager, lux, May, and pederson. It sounds very crazy but look at it this way: if it were to happen, Betty 1B, Muncy 2B, lindor SS, and turner 3B. Bellinger, verdugo, and polluck in the OF. starting rotation Kershaw, buehler, clevinger, maeda, and urias with strippling and gosselin in the fold. Now that doesn’t sound too bad
but what about cleveland…
What about them?
WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT TO MAKE LA BETTER. WHAT ABOUT CLEVELAND.. It would take more than the 4 you listed for the 2 from Cleveland. Yeah dude it does sound “very crazy”,.
I think there’s an argument that Lux has more trade value than Lindor considering his length of control and salary. Lux is about as close to a slam dunk prospect as you get. If I’m the Dodgers I don’t even mess with Lindor or deal Lux and everyone else is available for Clevinger.
A high level prospect who has hype and a high ceiling has more trade value than arguably the most marketable star in the game / an established perennial all star / has accumulated actual MLB stats / milestones? This is my beef in today’s evaluations, the “what could be”s have more value than the “what are”s. Glorification of what players could be vs a certainty. Boo @ you lil bushy bb bear
The Angels will trade you Vinnie Pestano for him.
W
This is a guy I would actually consider trading Jo Adell for
I dont know about Adell, but if they want Marsh so bad, here ya go. Obviously the Angels would have to give up much more.
Adell is completely off the trade block.
He’s projected to be a 280 hitter 30Hr guy, with in real athleticism in right field.
It would have to be a virtual player swap. And Indians would never go for that.
For those that don’t know the Angels traded Clevinger for Vinnie Pestano. Without question one of the worst trades of the decade.
Yes, Can you actually believe we drafted him?
I actually did not know that.
Godddddd please don’t remind me bout that.
I appreciate you!!!
@macstruts keep in mind he was a 4 era minors pitching coming off tj. Easy to cast your opinion now that everything is said and dont but at the time it was a middling trade for both sides. Again cleveland develops pitchers extremely well just look at bieber coming out of no where.
Twins should be jumping all over Clevinger. Every top team, actually.
I cannot imagine the Indians trading him within the division.
I’ve never understood that logic. If you feel like you’re winning the trade, why not take the chance to make your team better AND make your rival worse at the same time?
I agree, it’s a silly concept but teams for sure try to avoid trading in division. It’s for sure a thing, as dumb as it is..
they are essentially sacrificing anu chance they have of winning it in the nesr future anyway, so why does it matter?
Indians trade Clevinger, this season is over. Carrasco, Bieber, Plesac, Civale + Moss, Rodriguez or Allen? Not going to do it. I don’t see anything else coming back in a trade that’ll change that.
I mean, they did do that last year without any additions….Kluber hurt and Sunshine hurt. They didn’t make playoffs but don’t you think Twins regress at least a little? It really depends on the return. Door should always be open on anyone. You can always say “no”
What about
Lux, May, Gonsolin, Downs, Ruiz for Lindor and Clevinger
that would be insane
gotta include at least one MLB replacement piece for Tribe
Lux, May, and Gonsolin have all made their major league debuts
would still take more.
Why? It’s not like Cleveland is actually going to worry about an MLB club in 2020.
Uh, Minnesota is better, even with their rotation up in the air. And I’m a White Sox fan.
Sorry you’re a Sox fan. No MN isn’t better, but they are better than the ChiS0x 🙂
Cleveland is planning to have a contender in 2020 that is why it would take a major haul including MLB ready controllable players to get Lindor and Clevinger.
Cleveland could still easily win this division, even if they dealt Clevinger. At some point, Upper Deck and Flear should start making trading cards for the Cleveland staff members who develop pitchers. They don’t need to shop for big names because they manufacture big names.
My favorite trade partner scenario would be Correa and Whitley from the Astros for Lindor and Clevinger. See the Astros get Clevinger to the next level. See what the Indians could do with a guy who doesn’t need a ton of polish.
Lux, May, Ruiz, Downs & Gonsolin and you’re worried about MLB ready talent?
That’s pure comedy.
I completely get where you are in terms of what you think the return value for your players should be and that you’re clearly not likely to budge on your position but…whether you agree or not…the dodgers believe Lux with his 6 years of cheap control has more value than Lindor with his much more expensive 2 years of control. That would leave May, Ruiz, Downs & Gonsolin to pay for Clevingers 3 yrs of control. Now I love clevinger and I would personally put a very high value on the cost it would take to acquire him but May, Ruiz, Downs & Gonsolin for him is a bit absurd.
“Baseball trade values” is a website that estimates each players trade value in hypothetical trades and it’s often referenced by the writers at fangraphs when they discuss potential trade proposals. It’s certainly not perfect or an exact science but if nothing else it certainly provides a more unbiased perspective. Feel free to peep over there if you’ve never visited and get a detailed explanation of the formula they use to determine projected value relative to projected cost.
All that said…the proposed trade would be estimated by that website to be a gigantic overpay of value in the indians favor by a margin of 233 -146.
Lux is projected to provide 85.1 value over the course of his 6 years of control.
May = 61.4 over 6yrs
Ruiz = 44.7
Downs = 21.9
Gonsolin = 19.9
= 233.0
Lindor = 63.4 over 2 yrs
Clevinger = 82.5 over 3 yrs
= 145.9
Agree or disagree on the value given by that website all you want but I think it’s fairly safe to say that you’re putting too much value on your players and not nearly enough on the prospects in this proposal…especially if your only response is “gotta include at least one mlb replacement piece for tribe”
Each major league team has their own value system in place when evaluating players. Almost everyone who comments on MLB Trade Rumors said that the Indians sold low and were ripped off in the Corey Kluber trade yet Baseball Trade Values called in a slight overpay for the Rangers as they valued DeSheilds more highly than Kluber. Also the three team trade from last season between Cleveland, Cincinnati, and San Diego did not fit their values as Cleveland received almost double the value in return than they had Bauer worth. That site is just one opinion on player values.
With that said, Cleveland would be trading two sure things in Lindor and Clevinger. If that can’t get Lux, May, plus others is crazy to me.
Over the years, Cleveland has regularly traded their pitchers before free agency. They have not always done that with their hitters. Thome, Vizquel, Belle, Brantley, and Santana all played through their entire contracts. So it is not a sure bet that they trade Lindor.
i was referring to proven vs unproven. thanks for the numbers. a sure thing over a prospect is a quantifiable value. i’d go with the sure thing. no beef, it’s just that the two from the indians have made names for themselves via mlb performance and the group from the dodgers sounds nice but is unproven. that’s all my point was big dog
also not sure why you’re coming at me on this, because clearly i’ve been posting all day. look around. this trade isn’t going to happen and i’m annoyed by the amount of time you took to call me out on something that wasn’t directed toward you.
all these “projections” vs what we’ve seen lindor and clev accomplish. take your projections and hoard them.
I can’t really disagree with your comments regarding value. Value is certainly relative and I would certainly agree that each team has its own value system. Pretty common sense.
As to to your comments about the baseball trade values website…i felt like I quite clearly stated in my post that…
“It’s certainly not perfect or an exact science but if nothing else it certainly provides a more unbiased perspective.”
…and furthermore I’d like to point out that it’s a perspective that takes into account the strength of the old “sure things” vs the potential of “Lux and May plus others” argument when adding up the projected values of proposed trades but…I will once again say that it certainly doesn’t mean that it’s accurate or even somewhat accurate on every single player’s trade value that is in mlb or owned by an mlb team. Of course not. Lol. I should also point out that it certainly doesn’t take into account value relative to a particular teams needs.
In regards to an actual trade for Lindor and/or clevinger…I’d say the dodgers preference would be to include a third team directly or indirectly in the trade that would allow the dodgers to move seager as part of any cost to be paid. That would allow the dodgers to hold on to Lux and May and yet still provide the value to trade for Lindor and/or clevinger without crippling the farm system.
A third team is not going to help get the Indians the players that they want for Lindor when they want Lux.
Right now, who puts your team in better position to win a title. Right now.
Francisco Lindor and Mike Clevinger or the “prospects” with the more years of control.
The Dodgers have a system that allows them to make the playoffs every year, without drastically over paying any players or having dead money on the books. They don’t need to go for the gusto because one of these years their always competitive roster will get hot in October. Small market teams and perennial losers like the Royals, Twins, Mets and Orioles have to go big when their windows open, but not the Dodgers.
Don’t expect the Dodgers to shake up their system by trading their other worldly prospects for a win now move for Clevinger and Lindor.
That’s probably what it’d take. Replace Downs with Kike and that’s likely the deal you’d see.
Add Seager.
why is everyone so low on Seager? seems to me there really are only a few degrees seperation between their production.
Because Seager isn’t Lindor. What does “a few degrees” mean? Plz compare stats and get back to us.
Career numbers:
Seager: .294/.362/.491
Lindor: .288/.347/.493
I’m not low on him. He’s just isn’t Lindor. Seager would be a good replacement for the Indians that’s why if I was Cleveland’s GM, I would ask for him plus premium prospects.
@vtadave are you afraid to just say you think Seager is better than Lindor? Do those 3 categories definitively define Lindor’s value vs Seager’s? PLEASE Just say it if you think it. I love a guy who argues to argue. Why didnt you list their WAR? Lindor 28.6 / Seager 17.8 hm weird
11+ WAR is a lil more than “a few degrees”
Seager’s played 489 games versus 717 for Lindor. Lindor’s WAR should be much higher.
So in your opinion is Seager a better player than Lindor?
Nope. Just pointing out the few degrees Darkside referenced. The separation between Lindor and Seager is not that wide. Lindor is the better player in my opinion.
So Seager is younger which would make you think he’ll play longer but that’s not always the case. They both broke into majors in 2015 but Lindor has payed 717 games in the same span Seager has only accumulated 489. Different situations arise I get it and shortstop is a coveted position to take over so I understand it isn’t always equal opportunity regarding each team but that is a lot of games difference for the same amount of time. Someone earned more playing time. Since 2015 Lindor has spent more time in Majors (games played), strikeout rate is lower, slugging higher and we haven’t even discussed his speed (steals 93>10 in favor of Paquito). Then the obvious surface accumulation stats of Runs, RBI’s, Hits, HR, Doubles, Triples etc obviously Lindor has more because of playing time, but Seager is about to eclipse Lindor’s total strikeouts (with less than 3 yearsworth AB’s). Will be hard for Seager to maintain higher BA as well with more games coming. I bet on Lindor eclipsing that mark when each’s career is over. They are both defensive wizards but I’ve seen Frankie make more dazzling plays to date than Corey. In those amount of games played for each, Seager has only committed 4 less errors than Lindor (over almost 300 games!) proving Lindor’s fielding percentage much superior. We havent discussed marketability or “glue” either. I mean, honestly, they aren’t that close. Seager is well above average and a star in his own, but Lindor is top-shelf generational.
https://mlbcomparisons.com/corey-seager-vs-francisco-lindor-comparison/
almost too obvious to argue
You’re right; Darkside, vtadave and I are correct, you’re fighting something that isn’t worth arguing. Few degrees. We’re on-point and you pointed it out for us. Thank you.
I don’t think it obvious at all. These stats show Lindor has better cumulative numbers. But we all know that – Lindor has played longer and has more PAs. I’m actually surprised Seager has a better OPS given Lindor is purported to be a leadoff hitter and Seager is a notorious first pitch swinger. We all know Lindor is an elite fielder while Seager is good but Seager is the better hitter by any metric. Overall I’d take Lindor but not by much.
nope. “few degrees” is a very fallible phrase. lindor is up and down the better player. both since 2015 yet lindor with more everything, weird.
i’ll pose it this way; at the end of their careers do you think Lindor will finish with stats “a few degrees” ahead of Seager?
just want to know how to quantify this “few degrees” talk. are degrees stats? because lindor is ahead in 3x as many as he isn’t. are they intangibles? seager on huge market dodgers yet i see lindor’s face everywhere. help me out. define your meaning of “degree” so i can understand better.
“ Seager is the better hitter by any metric” as in striking out more, walking less, less contact and less playing time? Lindor is a better hitter than Seager and of Seager’s only “a few degrees” away from Lindor via hitting, how many degrees is he behind Lindor in fielding, running bases and marketability? Those categories hold their own “degrees” within themselves. Just trying to understand how they’re so close to you
Hmm.
Career OPS: Seager .853, Lindor, .840
Career OPS+: Seager: 126, Lindor, .119
Redefining “better” every day.
So yes, Lindor is a slick fielder, and that definitely adds value, but he would not improve the Dodgers enough overall if the cost is Seager plus others. With both of them in the lineup it helps. But gaining Lindor and losing Seager? Not worth doing.
Alright Mrs. Lindor. Your son is a great ball player and we all like him. Please stop now.
Seager’s injury history definitely affects his value.
Dude, let it go
A fraction of the pie vtadave…….a fraction of the pie. Lindor has better defense, baserunning, and power. He’s much more valuable than Seager and I like Corey.
Dude you are the one that asked him to list the stats and he did. Then you go to WAR because he proved you wrong. Obviously, Lindor is better but it’s not as far a separation as some think. Seager has missed a lot more time so the WAR thing isn’t even relevant.
dude bro, he didn’t prove me wrong, he listed an outdated 3-stat line and i responded with the same type of bs in WAR. Seager missed time because of injuries, so that’s pretty relevant to me.
That would be about 25 years of controllable talent for five. Sounds about right, if you’re a Cleveland fan. Certifiably insane if you aren’t.
Yeah the Dodgers wouldn’t do it. I seriously doubt they’d deal Lux in any deal. They’ve had many Chances to deal guys like Bellinger when they were prospects for Great players and were smart and held.
Hell they might as well trade Francona and left field drum guy.
Noooooooooo……not John Adams!!
In a 2 team division it seems short sighted to give in so easily, congrats MInnesota, it’s yours for the taking.
I think that the ChiSox will own this division for much of the 2020s
Not so fast, the Indians have the secret sauce for developing pitchers. The Twins were a homerun machine last year that is bound to regress. The ChiSox are moving up big time, but still don’t have enough starting pitching or a bullpen that can compete. The Indians can trade Lindor, Clevinger, and Carrasco and no one should be surprised when they’re in the thick of it in 2020.
If the Indians trade Clevinger they might as well commit to a full scale rebuild
They have already started, what do you think the trade with texas was.
That’s not a rebuild. That cleared some short-term salary off their payroll they could easily make a couple of wise signings to patch some holes. Getting rid of cheap, controllable players like Clevinger/Bieber is full-scale, red button-pushing rebuild mode.
The Kluber trade was a salary dump. Trading Clevinger would be the equivalent of throwing in the towel for the 2020 season
The Dolan Indians never do a full rebuild.
Clevinger for Hudson Reyes and o’Neill … let’s go mo.
Dakota? no, he has more control and might end up just as good.
Not bad but let’s replace “Hudson” with “Gomber & J Martinez”
rebulid to actually try and contend. stop with this wishy washy stuff.
I hear the asking price is a Rule 5 fourth outfielder with no bat, and a young bullpen guy.
Just as long as they are cheap. Right, Dolan?
@ The Ghost Of Bobby Bonilla
The Dolan’s would insist that the team that trades for Clevinger would pay half of the salaries of the Rule 5 fourth outfielder and the young bullpen guy to complete the trade.
MLB needs to start having dispersal drafts every off season. Teams that have no interest in competing the next season can submit names and contracts for the draft. Teams that want to compete can submit a list of 10 prospects they are willing to give up and draft from the other list Then teams that lose a player can choose x number of prospects based on a value assigned by a arbitrator. Make it like a Chinese menu. You can choose one prospect from Column A or one from Column B and Column C. Call it the Rule 6 draft and then fans can know immediately whether they need to worry about their team the next year.
Nice idea. Too bad it’s nice but not good.
DING: “fans hoping to see their club secure a talent the caliber of Clevinger or Lindor should make a list of the young, controllable players with whom they’d be most reluctant to part … and then expect that at least one and more likely two of said group would be at center of such a deal (in addition to some lesser prospects).”
Fans offering up 2nd tier prospects should reread this until they learn it, know it and live it
I commented something similar, so I totally agree. When you’re acquiring a player this good, you have to give up a ton. I don’t get how people don’t understand that.
ty kwolf. couldn’t be more right
Cubs loves the guy and he is cheap,wouldn’t be surprised if they try getting a third team involved to a pease Indians maybe something that moves Bryant to someone braves or rangers maybe cubs get clev and some md level prospect,Indians get a couple prospects..not saying it can work but bet they try again made a couple runs for him already
I don’t know how realistic that is, but id love to see the Cubs pull it off while only getting rid of Bryant.
Yeah agreed may take lil something extra to make all three teams happy just a matter of not overpaying while getting the right return but a cheap pitcher and clearing salary exactly what they need
DODGERS are floating rumors about Mookie Betts to try to get the Tribe to blink first.
LUX has to be in any deal or it won’t happen with the Dodgers….that is why the Indians are looking to the Reds, Padres….etc
CLEVINGER can be had but it will take MAY and another top pitching prospect
Click bait. A nothing burger.
Isn’t that why they call it “MLBTradeRUMORS” lol this guy
Bite me.
Based on what they got for Kluber vs what it was rumored they were asking for, who knows what it will actually take to pry away Clevinger? I still can’t believe how small that return was.
I appreciate that Steve put that last sentence in there; too often, people think that their team’s superfluous garbage can get a deal done, when it’s going to take a serious (and maybe painful) offer to get it done. Essentially, if you can come up with a trade offer that doesn’t bother you, that probably means it isn’t enough.
Whether the Dodgers trade Lux or not, it’s not unreasonable for the Indians to ask. Asking for Lux for Kluber would have been ridiculous, but wanting him for Clevinger and/or Lindor is more than reasonable. I’m a little guilty of overvaluing prospects myself, but that’s something that a lot of teams in the industry probably need to get over. Even looking at top prospect lists from 2016 shows a bunch of guys that are already busts.
As a side note, although the Indians keep trading away salary, Antonetti keeps insisting that they’re not under any obligation to further decrease the payroll from last year. I’d imagine — or, at least, I hope — that they actually plan to reinvest that money back into next year’s team. But people have a right to be skeptical about that, given how they’ve operated for the last year or so.
The Indians will not “reinvest” the money. They have to pay off Sherman. That’s what all this is about.
See my comment above.
Antonetti said right after the Kluber trade that they’re planning on taking the money they saved from his contract and reinvesting it into the team. It’s a direct quote from him. I didn’t make it up.
Your earlier comment said that you don’t follow the Indians or their media. It’s pretty obvious. If you followed them, you would have seen that.
You love painting the “holier than thou” picture when you reply to my comments, but I actually follow this team instead of spinning opinions into facts like you do. It’s getting old.
Love to see him get traded to the Red Sox but highely doubt it.
Dang… I would expect them to trade Carlos Santana first. That would save them $20 mil.
Segura, Moniak, Spencer Howard, the phillie fanatic, one beer guy, one peanuts guy, 1 security guard, 6 baseballs and A clubhouse chair for Clevinger and lindos, get it done klentak!
had me @ phillie fanatic
I’m weary to let go of that chair though, it’s a real game changer for us.
If Clevinger OR Lindor gets traded to the Phillies, it doesn’t get done without Bohm. It’s at least possible, but very unlikely.
If Clevinger AND Lindor get traded to the Phillies, it absolutely doesn’t get done without Bohm.
Yes but we included the chair AND 6 baseballs I’m pretty sure they would jump at that instead of Bohm.
Okay you got me there
Do you people really think Clev and Lindor in the same deal is a possibility this offseason? The asking price would be: you can keep bellinger and Buerhler but we can to pick 10 players from your entire organization. Or keep Acuna jr, but we can 10 players of our choice from your entire organization. To get Lindor and Clevinger now would severely cripple the organization short and long term. It would be one of those give up the wheels, brakes, and many critical components of the car just for a fancy engine type of deal.
MLBTR is not drawing my interest.
You can leave…?
Wish the braves would get him
Me, too. He has enough control left, I wouldn’t be mad if they traded Pache for him. I’d off Pache, Newcomb and Riley for him right now. Sign Donaldson, and let’s go!
He’s drawing interest … I doubt the Indians do this . No way , this guy will only improve and get a better haul if we’re to happen
FOR DISCUSSION: Could this ever happen? Am I on crack? Is this too much/little?
Cardinals send Gomber, Reyes, J Martinez & O’Neill to Indians for Clevinger & a hairnet
It’s not the worst proposal I’ve seen. I think it really depends how a team feels about Reyes; he’s shown no ability to stay healthy, so I think he’s probably a reliever long term. But if a team still buys into him, maybe.
They match up well with Braves. I wouldn’t be surprised if AA isn’t offering a few prospects at or near the MLB level for him, since the Indians prefer to retool quickly.
Braves have Wright, Wilson, Newcomb ( I bet a great pitching coach could turn him into a monster) Anderson, Touki, Muller, and +more pitching talent ready for the majors or close to it.
Add Waters, or if JD signs, Riley along with 2 to 3 of those guys above and you probably got something close to a deal.
Soroka, Clevinger, Hamels, Folty, Fried is a pretty impressive rotation.
I’m almost positive it takes Pache, and I say this as a Braves fans. If the roles were flipped, and we were dealing 3 yrs of Sororka, we’d want their top prospect, justifiably. I’d still do it, too. We’d have this guy for 3 years. You’d still eventually have 2 great young OF in Acuna and Waters. You’d have two aces atop the rotation, and if Anderson develops as advertised… You’ve got a Big 3 again. I don’t think Pache, Newcomb and a pick’em between Wright and Riley is too much here. If they ink Donaldson, on paper, that’s a tremendous team. I guess it really depends on how Cleveland sees their window, though, if they trade him or not.
Waters is rated as high or higher than Pache by alot of people, so you can swap him in if you want, but the difference in him and and adding a 3rd prospect isnt much. He just fits the Braves better as a pure Cf, where Waters will be in a corner after a few years ideally.
Pache is a 10-15 guy on top 100s and Waters is top 20 with potential to keep going. The difference isnt much at all. I prefer Waters myself. Give me the guy who switch hits 330 in AA at 20 with plus cf def and arm over the average hitter in Cf with elite defense.
Do none of these teams understand that Bryant plays corner OF better than he does 3B? All this talk about Castellanos when Bryant plays much better defense. Bryant for Clevinger is a trade I predicted before the season was even over what the hell is Epstein smoking in Chicago? I mean Cubs desperately need a top starter and Clevinger fits that bill perfectly, while Bryant is a solid addition to the Tribe’s lineup. Come on, Theo
3 years of a cheap Clevinger is worth much much more than 2/1 year depending on his grievance of a more expensive position player like Bryant. The Cubs do not have the pieces to get Clevinger.
Indians are unloading for prospects Bryant only makes sense in a flip situation cubs only have a few prospects good enough and they aren’t giving them up for a 29 year old pitcher gotta be a third team to make it work
I would give up aj puk and any of mateo, baretto, fowler, kaprelian, etc
I’m sure you would.
Go Get him AA. This would be huge! No risk it, no biscuit. Braves have the Prospect capital
Ooooh thissss is who you dump a prospect package on.
Him and Keuchel… Eppler would’ve made it happen.
Marsh is blocked so a package around him for Clevinger makes sense
What in the world are the Indians doing?
See my comment near the top.
@bobby’s vandals, Paste some articles about that in here. not finding too much and just wanna see where you’re collecting info so i can do same. thanks!
You must be new here, Vandals rarely has articles to provide because, though he speaks with sports writers directly, nothing is published because only he knows what is relevant and newsworthy. All of Vandals investigative reporting is provided live, right here on MLBTR’s comment section, the correct place to broadcast “real baseball news.”
I have no articles to paste other then some here at MLBTR and other that can be found by searching for “John Sherman” or Sherman Royals sale” on the Internet discussing the Royals sale and Sherman divesting his interest in the Indians.
That’s the thing – this has been covered up well. But my guess is that baseball fans in Cleveland have figured it out. I don’t live there, so I don’t know if it’s being talked about openly.
Dumping Kluber’s salary to get a young bullpen guy and have another $15m to work with was understandable as they have plenty of starting pitchers. Rumors about Lindor being traded at this point seemed premature. But to also discuss trading an inexpensive ace pitcher with 3 years of control at a time when quality starting and relief pitching is in short supply, is crazy – especially for a team trying to win on a small payroll.
Nah, the Royals sale did it. Probably arranged years ago to get Sherman acclimated to how MLB operates. These things don’t suddenly happen.
The Indians situation is now officially worse then the Miami Marlins is.
@ Just_a_thought;
You’re correct……
Why I said the Nationals were the best team playing in MLB in July – August, 2019. Picked the Rays, Indians, Astros, Braves Cartdinals, Dodgers before the 2019 season – hitting on 4 of the 6 divisions. Wrote that Soto was already a better player then Harper last off-season. Wrote that the Royals of 2015 looked like the best team in the AL. Said for 2 years that the Yankees should fired Rothschild and get an up-to-date pitching coach and the Yankees needed to revise their pitching philosophies. The 2nd week of the 2019 season said the ball was obviously juiced. And far more…….
Guys like you don’t understand that statistics (and “documentation”) are about what happened – and are only valuable if one understands the conditions of the variables at the time those stats were taken. In the stock market you’re what’s known as a “bagholder”, the guy that feels comfortable buying when the stock is at its peak and the smart money is selling to you.
About your handle – work on having one.
@Badacidtrip69 point confirmed
This has been my point all along, I don’t doubt that you have some method of predicting things well. My main gripe has been that you don’t bring any information to the table, you only provide your guesses and predictions based on information that clearly the world doesn’t have. Hence why I think you should be the one reporting them. If you write these articles and base them on the information you are relying on and the inferences you are drawing to make a prediction, believe me, I’d read it. You are correct that, in your world, I am a thoughtless bag holder, a fine assessment from your point of view. However, from mine, I do my best to analyze the actually reported information. Lastly, just so you know, some of those same predictions that you got correct, I made similar type predictions and was correct in the past. However, I told people that it was based on my gut and provided the information I relied on to back it up.
Vandals, you also wrote that Victor Robles is already better than Harper will ever be so…….
Clevinger for Kyle Wright, Touki Toussaint, Austin Riley and Ray Patrick Didder.
No thank you Nebraska.
I really got to change my name. Geeez. So take out Austin Riley and insert Pache. You will have the elite center fielder for the next decade.
Of course he’s drawing interest but that doesn’t mean they’re shopping him around. They need to lock him up long term instead of entertaining calls.
The Dodgers should trade Lux. May, Ruiz, Busch and Peters for Lindor and Clevinger. They give up their 3 top prospects for two players who will make their presence in October stronger. Action is needed given the Yankees with Cole.
Hey Dodgers if u want a SP and SS the Mets can give u Stroman and Rosario for May,Ruiz and Verdugo. The Mets get a young SP,C and CF the $$ saved from Stroman they can sign 2 RP’s
Seager is much much much better than Rosario. That deal would be pointless with Rosario involved.
All of these Lindor / Clevenger rumors are being leaked purposely by existing Tribe management to “prepare” Indian fans for the eventual trading of one or both. Do not be surprised if the trade or trades are announced on Christmas Eve so the eventual fallout will occur on Christmas Day with little or no media coverage. The Indians are also hoping Browns coach Freddie Kitchens is fired at the same time to further deflect attention away from the baseball team.
Browns fans are also hoping Freddie gets fired.
Looks like he’s blasting a reverberating fart in that pic. PFFFFFFFTTTTTT
If you think Lindor is going to cost a lot, add another prospect you won’t be willing to give up and that’s what starts the conversation for Clev.
That would mean both him and Lindor together would cost your top 5 prospects and a few major league players.
The Dodgers aren’t trading for anyone. Friedman isnt giving up any of his prized prospects. His goal is now strictly on 32 years.
Dodgers blew it last year holding on to their prospects and will do it again this year. They will fire this GM and start over again.
Why would you assume ownership is committed to winning a championship?
It’s a nice narrative that they only care about money but the reality seems a bit different to me…
In 5 years time the dodgers have…
Best record in baseball
Set a franchise record for most wins in a season.
5 Division titles.
3 NLCS appearances(2 pennants)
2 World Series appearances(lost one in game 7)
One of the deepest, most talented and most flexible 49 man rosters in MLB.
One of the best farm systems in all of baseball.
Hard to see too many fan bases being upset with the past 5 years or with the potential outlook of the next 5 years…but maybe I’m mistaken…?
You claim they only care about money but wouldn’t winning a championship make them even more money…?
I think you just want to win at all costs regardless of the future consequences while the dodgers brass wants to win as well but they want to keep on winning in what they view as a sustainable way.
Ultimately…I think it’s more than fair to criticize them over the way they want to win but to claim that they’re not even trying to win…seems…laughable at best.
You need to get out more. After 31 years this fan base is very tired of no better than second best, which is why the home team is getting booed by the fans at Dodger Stadium. This is something I never witnessed even in the darkest McCourt days. You also need to hear what ownership and management have said about this. They’ve made their priorities quite clear. Ticket sales rule. It isn’t a narrative when it’s the truth, and it definitely isn’t nice.
Look, it would be one thing if your position was that the dodgers have done pretty dang good in Friedman’s 5 years but that nothing short of a ring matters to you.
Then you’d just be the guy with unrealistically high standards who loves to cry “all that matters is championships”. Plenty of those guys around. They can be fun…sometimes
Instead your position is that ownership and the front office aren’t even trying to win and that the fan base is more displeased with this ownership group than it was with McCourt…
Unfortunately, that position puts you in the delusional guy who’s gone crazy because “all that matters is championships” and the dodgers haven’t won one in 31 years” category.
The reality is that In the 5 years with Friedman running the franchise…
The dodgers have won 5 division titles
Set a franchise record for wins in a season.
Won 2 national league pennants & made 2 World Series appearances.
Have one of the best 40 man rosters in baseball with an absolute ton of financial flexibility going forward.
Have one of the best farm systems in baseball.
These are the actual facts that run counter to your “I need to get out more” & “dodgers aren’t trying to win” narratives and why i genuinely believe that the dodgers are in a position to legitimately compete for titles for the foreseeable future…but I’m certainly biased as a dodger fan and maybe I’m on the optimistic side of things.
I’d actually be interested to hear the number of fanbases that feel like they’re better positioned to compete for more titles over the next 5-7 years(hard to project much further than that) than the dodgers…
So now you know my position, eh? Actually, you don’t seem to know the first thing about it, oddly, not even the part I already explained.
The Dodgers won the division in the two years before Friedman arrived on the scene, and they also won it in 2004, 2008, and 2009. So that’s ten times in 15 years under multiple managements and ownerships (one of them, bankrupt). No parades either way. The current ownership doubled and then tripled payroll and rebooted the farm system, all of which needed to be done. But they also signed a $7B media deal (which also blacked out half of the market) and began steadily hiking up ticket prices, so if they hadn’t spent that money, it would been criminal. It doesn’t take a genius to build a competitive team with that kind of money.
Dodger fans had lots of hopes at the start, but after years of half-measures when full measures were needed, and we are still without that parade (and yes, that matters, especially after 31 years), the mood in Dodger Stadium is turning foul. Worse than in the last couple of McCourt years when the stadium was often half-full but expectations were low and we took what we could get.
I know because as a season ticket holder (who is now paying over 50% more for my tickets than just two years ago), I’ve see it all. Some of us are reevaluating what we get for that kind of loyalty when we see them now hanging on the money we pay instead of making the kind of commitment to winning a championship that we’ve been denied for far too long. Every year we see kind of commitment from other teams, but not the Dodgers.
Yankees in mix? ALWAYS!
Andujar and Devi Garcia, Clint Frazier for Clevinger.. sounds good to me!
Not a chance of that happening.
Sounds like crap to me.
More likely Andujar, Garcia, Frazier for Lindor. Probably another couple pieces but would not be shocked at all for Lindor to NYY. He has stated he wants to play for them and reuniting him with his buddy Gio would make him real happy. Imagine that lineup:
Lindor
DJ
Judge
Gleyber
Stanton
Gardner
Sanchez
Tauchman
Urshela
The Yankees need to keep Little Deivi… that little guy is an RP.. another in a long line of overhyped # 1 prospect in the Yankees system.. Truth be told.. Jasson Dominguez is who would need to be added but as a PTBNL (US debut yet to happen)..Miguel Andujar (with a full/clean bill of health) and Domingo German (provided the commissioner’s office has revealed the outcome/punishment of his domestic offenses and reinstates him from administrative leave), Perhaps the addition of one more deep prospect.. like Kevin Alcantara to make up for the time lost due to these issues… would be fair to both sides..
Lindor and Clevinger for May Verdugo Keibert Lux
Gotta pull the trigger on that deal.
I think the Dodgers are willing to trade May on certain deals, but not Lux. I believe he is basically untouchable. For Lindor and Clevinger, I can see the Dodgers offering May, Ruiz, Verdugo, Seager + one middle level prospect.
Hilarious that you think the Indians wouldn’t die of laughter with that offer
Um did you see the Kluber trade?
While that trade sucked for the Indians, it was a salary dump of a player who had a catastrophic down year. In this completely different scenario, we see two affordable players in their primes…can’t believe I have to explain to you how astronomically different a Lindor/Clevinger trade would be compared to the Kluber trade
No one knows what Kluber will look like although I wish him to his old form. Look at his age, look at last year’s velo/injuries. Clase is similar to Hicks on the Cardinals. That is a pretty big piece for bullpen and controlled cheaply for years to come. Indians notoriously sneaky successful.
Never understood this whole prospects are “untouchable” nonsense when it comes to the caliber of players like Lindor and Clevinger. Are you in better position to win a title NOW with Lindor/Clevinger or Gavin Lux. Silly
Well of course Lindor and Clevinger are worth much more the next couple yrs, but Lux has way more control and will be making league minimum for a few years. There’s value to that. Plus I’d imagine it would take much more than just Lux to get them both.
The Dodgers should just go after Clevinger and not even mess with the Lux/Lindor portion of the deal.
Why ? , this team is still competitive,
Wow. I didn’t realize the dolans who own the Indians are the same family as the dolans who own the Knicks and Rangers. Absolutely the most miserable owners in all of sports except for the steingrabbers and America’s dismal cowpokes.
The New York Dolans financed the purchase of the Indians for Larry Dolan in Cleveland through stock options of their cable company. The Cleveland Dolans have a small law firm.
That’s a weird list of most miserable owners. Pretty sure you’d find a lot of disagreement.
The NY Dolans are interesting- the Knicks have been the absolute worst franchise in town for the past 20 years. Mind bogglingly bad. And so much of that is attributable to ownership.
But the Dolans overall have been pretty good owners for the Rangers.
Interesting that the Indians started doing this trading and cost cutting after John Sherman sold his minority interest in the team and led a group to buy the Royals.
True point
The “mystery team”, as always, is Team Boras.
Who the hell would be a fan of this team if they were to do this , that would be a big FU to the fan base , hey we just went to the World Series a few years ago , still have been competitive but hey these good players were gonna just trade them
I would still be a fan. Been one since the 60’s, why stop now? I’ve been through waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worst times than anything happening now.
As I’ve said before, no trade is happening with Lindor. Indians want too much and teams are not going to part with all they have, for two years of control of Lindor. No, they are not going to get that one team that is “going for it” to give their farm away for him. A ss, albeit a great one, is not going to be the difference in winning a WS.
How do you know?
Howie Kendrick plays second base and is in the twilight of his career. He sure made a huge difference in the World Series
For clevinger and Lindor I’d give up dejong, edman, gorman, Carlson, and Jake woodford. Throw in ponce deleon too.
No way they do that trade.
You get a dial tone
The Yankees will easily top that with an offer of Frazier, Wade, and some no name A-ball player. Get it done ninja Cash!
Halo Clowns, can you say “Vinnie Pestano”? Lolzzzzz
The Indians had a real shot at winning the division & with their pitching they had the ability to go toe to toe with anyone.
I guess I really don’t understand the Indians logic especially in a weak division. Twins have actually regressed so far as far as their roster & starting pitching up to this point in free agency.
They’re hoping a team will be emotional enough to donate the farm for a rental; then, the Indians will repeat what got them where they are today. They’ll be good enough to make playoffs or better in a few years, then rinse and repeat. I Think this is a business decision based on the probability of winning the WS, which is not high, over fan considerations.
Until the trade happens, don’t judge.
For example- assume the Dodger offer Seager plus more for Lindor.
Seager replacing Lindor is a loss, but not an insurmountable one. If the “plus more” either significantly improves the farm system or includes a controllable piece that upgrades the major league roster, it makes sense for the Indians, particularly if they feel they have no possible means of keeping Lindor (I’d assume they’ve explored whether they could extend him now and have determined it isn’t practical). They can still contend in the AL Central.
Or, hypothetically- Mets offer McNeil, Smith, Rosario, Matz, and something else (minor leaguers or maybe take back salary) for Lindor and Clevinger- if you believe Rosarios 2nd half from last year represents what he’ll be going forward, then I’d argue the combined gain on offense is at least a wash for the Indians (with a pretty big hit on the pitching side, but a pretty big gain in terms of payroll and controllable years).
For Clevinger AND Lindor, I’d start with a package of Adell, Marsh and Simmons and other of interest pieces to the Indians. The Indians could flip Simmons for more prospects.
My God the Angels would be set for the next few years.
I completely understand the love for Adell but he’s technically an unproven uber prospect at this point and his trade value will never be higher. Gotta pull the trigger if I’m the Angels.
Dodgers are never aggressive they just pretend to be
You just described the Dolan’s with the Indians.
They would always pretend to be trying to sign big time players, and of course never signed any. They figured that if they claimed that they were trying to sign star players the fans would be on their side. In reality they would have never signed the big star players to contracts.
Circulating on Twitter right now are a series of screenshots from Clevinger’s ex.
It seems this Clevinger guy is a pretty big jerk. Apparently his mother is as well. If they aren’t, then he’s got poor judgment in women.
Poor judgment in life must account for something… Right?