JUNE 21: While no vote will take place today, Heyman reports that MLB is “willing to make a couple changes” to its 60-game proposal to facilitate an agreement with the players. One such change, as reported by ESPN’s Jeff Passan: if a full season isn’t played this year, Manfred offered in a letter to Tony Clark to cancel the expanded playoff format and the universal DH rule in the 2021 season. Such a provision would prevent the deal from leaning too far in the owners’ favor should the COVID-19 pandemic force the cancellation of the 2020 season.
In the same letter to Clark, Manfred suggests that the two sides’ disagreement on the number of games played might be an inflexible issue, according to Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic. With teams relocating from the spring locations to their home ballparks, Rosenthal tabs June 29 as the earliest date teams could report to training. And if the season is to end by September 27 (which MLB has insisted upon), that leaves 66 days to play. Thus, the 70 game schedule desired by the players might not be feasible.
JUNE 20, 4:55: The union will hold off several days on voting, which was originally supposed to take place on Sunday, per Bob Nightengale of USA Today. Instead, players will spend some time review health and safety protocols after teams have shut down their regular spring training sites due to an uptick in COVID-19 cases in Arizona and Florida. Expect an update on the players’ votes at some point in the next week.
JUNE 20, 1:54: According to Jon Heyman of MLB Network, the MLB Players Association is set to vote this weekend on MLB’s latest proposal for a 2020 season, which consists of a 60-game season with full pro rata pay, as well as expanded playoffs and a universal DH through 2021, among other things. As part of that proposal, the players would also waive their right to seek additional compensation through a grievance.
If the players opt to reject the owners’ proposal, expect to see commissioner Rob Manfred unilaterally mandate a schedule, a last resort that the league has kept in its back pocket throughout negotiations but which brings with it the possibility of a grievance action from the union. That said, Manfred could opt to forego that action and instead choose to cancel the season altogether, though it seems like that isn’t the preference of most owners.
This weekend’s vote will be held by 38 players—one representative from each team, as well as an executive committee of eight players. Those team representatives have no doubt maintained contact with teammates and will have a pulse on their feelings towards the proposal.
Heyman further reports that early rumors suggest that the executive committee may vote nearly unanimously in opposition of the league’s proposal. And while the team reps are harder to gauge, there’s a chance that a majority will also opt to reject the deal. If that’s true, it may be likely that the players will simply let Manfred set the 2020 schedule.
Last we heard, the players countered with a 70-game schedule. And while that offer evidently didn’t lead to an agreement, it seemed like the two sides were finally making some progress on Thursday, with just 10 games separating the parties making it look like a midpoint in the sixties was feasible.
And while a league-mandated schedule won’t bring us closer to the players’ desired number of games—perhaps making it look futile to reject the league’s current proposal—players will want to maintain their ability to file a grievance against the league, something that wouldn’t be possible if they were to accept. Rejecting the league’s offer would also do away with the two-year expanded postseason, as well as other quirks like controversial extra-inning rules.
Just play ball. Quit crying about 10 games.
Why is it on the players to concede the 10 games and not the owners?
The players don’t lose money from 10 extra
If they’re paid pro-rated, meaning the amount of games they play, then playing fewer games means lesser pay, so they do lose money.
Yeah, they lose money from 10 fewer.
How much money do they lose if there are zero games?
Atomic. I’ll bet you the owners take more in loses if they don’t play this year. That and I wouldn’t want to piss off the union knowing that 2021 might led to a players strike.
Yeah to heck with fans. Why care about them?? Baseball is a JOKE.
Players aren’t “losing” any money. The season may not be plaid and then the players get nothing. They’ll get paid what they get according to how many games played IF the season is played. The owners may or may not lose actual money if the season is played. We’re past the point of players considering unpaid future salary as a loss because, again, if the season isn’t played they get NOTHING. How can something be considered a loss over nothing?
That’s most people’s yearly wage.
They do lose money, but it’s too late now. Each day that goes by the window closes.
And less losses for the owners if you believe them. While they certainly will have less revenue with no gate, will the earnings from TV, radio and in stadium ads be enough to pay players each game, the expenses associated with opening a stadium and normal overhead including meals, travel and back office costs?
Do the players have to give back the $170m that was paid as an advance if there are no games?
I dont believe so.
Because they screamed over and over last week “tell us where and when, we’re ready to play.”
The owners already conceded 100 games
60 games would be a miracle. 10 games is 1/16, or just over 6 percent of a normal season… what’s the difference to the players really at this point?
@dshires4
Supposedly they already had an agreement, then the players reneged. Sorry, Clark and Manfred had an agreement. If your president makes an agreement you have to live by it.
Isn’t that what some fans say the owners did before? That the owners had an agreement on pro-rated pay and the owners broke it. I don’t really believe that, but many other people do. The owners were castigated for that. Now the players are going back on an agreement which had already been negotiated. Shouldn’t they be castigated as well?
Clark and Manfred obviously didn’t have a complete meeting of the minds. In any case, both of them would have to have any agreement ratified by the owners or players.
The owners didn’t exactly breach the agreement by trying to negotiate down from full prorated salaries, especially since another clause in the same agreement arguably opened it up for that.
Lack of trust is a big issue
I think it will pass because most players aren’t superstars making $38M a year. 20% increase in pay for a 50 vs 60 game season is a big deal for those players making close to minimum wage.
BTW we saw this play out in the NFL when they voted YES narrowly for their latest CBA. I think it happens against.
Also median salary in the MLB is $1.4M. 50 vs 60 game for them is $430K vs $520K. Who is gonna chose $430K with no guarantee of a successful grievance? I sure as hell wouldn’t.
They have the time…between rounds of golf
Sorry but I’m not seeing where he singled out the players OR owners…it looks to me like he was making a comment to everyone involved
Some of these fans don’t understand that ‘owners’ know zip about the game.
I’m not coming back for 60 games. There are neutral warm weather climates to be playing ball way past Christmas! Why is it only the NBA can play different months? Let the players play until they can’t. Stop telling baseball players what baseball is!
Because time waits for no man. The calendar has already run on a 70 game season, and if the players don’t get on the stick 60 will also be out.
Just cancel the season. Dont let people rest until we fix our country, which is currently on fire.
We flat out dont deserve baseball this year, no one does. Only the smoothest of smooth-brained arrogant imbeciles argue otherwise. Humanity before economics, always.
Baseball is a part of humanity.
Baseball will fix our country.
Baseball will end racism.
Okay Sparky
Here….here!! Haven’t the “we don’t deserve” crowd watched Field of Dreams? We NEED it….now more than ever. Need a distraction.
I hate field of dreams.
@Steve Nebraska
I believe you.
Get over yourself
Strike Four – So anyone who disagrees with you is an inbicile? I expect nothing less from an imbicile. Time for baseball. You go do whatever it is you do.
You managed to incorporate “imbecile” twice into your reply and misspelled it both times.
I guess that’s like writing “your an idiot.”.
But Strike Four is an imbecile.
The real sad thing is the cancellation of the LLWS not the cancellation of a “sport” controlled by greedy players and billionaire owners. Take your bat and ball and go home. And ESPN stop posting “classic” MLB games. Try giving us some LLWS games to watch. At least the kids care about the spirit of the game.
Well if we are waiting to get rid of the China Virus we will be waiting a long time. It is not going anywhere soon.
Our country isn’t fixable, period. You’ve got too many people who don’t respect what it means to be an American. They’re selfish and only want things given to them. There are too many weak, uneducated, arrogant, selfish people for things to be fixed. It’s starts with the individual but too many are just followers and don’t know how to do life without being told what to do.
Cancel the season, it’s whats best for the players and their families.
My family wants me to make money. They’d kick me out if I stopped.
Baseball players have kids going to private schools and wives driving luxury cars. They’re gonna send poppa to the mines if that’s what it takes.
Strike Four, Well, simple and accurately put. Anyone that argues this is part of this countries problems.
This is more of a lead up to the much bigger CBA negotiations. There is definitely distrust & anger on the side of the players.
It’s clear, the players will vote no so they can file a grievance. I wish the commish recognized that was the players’ plan all along. Then he would’ve skipped these fake negotiations and went straight into an MLB mandated schedule.
Instead they’ve made us all teeter on hating the MLB.
Everyone on this site has a baseball obsession and we’re all almost walking away. The casual fan is probably gone for good unless they use another PED juiced ball gimmick to save the league again.
Its more than money and 10 games, its about changing the traditional baseball to dh in NL, ties, players returning to the field, patches on uniforms.
Not even 10 games its likely only about 5 games as I think the MLBPA would have voted yes if MLB came back with a 65 game counter.
What do you mean? The players are ready to play. Tomorrow, if possible. It’s the owners who are refusing to start the season until the players sign away their right to file a grievance.
Do you know why? Because the owners know that they’re in the wrong here. They are violating contracts as we speak,simply by delaying the start of the season. They know that they would likely lose that grievance. Their only hope is that the players waive away the right to argue their case in front of an impartial arbitrator.
And no, canceling the season won’t help them. The owners don’t have that card up their sleeve either. That’s an empty threat.
They are not violating anything. The country was put on lockdown… there are legit safety concerns. Why is that so hard to understand? You can’t treat this like a normal season. It isn’t. Contract law says it isn’t. The virus is basically an “act of God”.
Make a counter offer. Just know that over 60 games is a waste of time.
With Owners’ 60 game proposal
Players get
10 games/ 6% more salary- 37%
$25 M playoff pool
$33 M advance write off
DH for two years
No grievance
Owners get
$113 million estimated expanded playoff revenue x 2 years
Grievances waived
TV revenue for 10 more games (unless they get that without playing games)
With MLB setting a schedule
Players get
50ish games, 31% of pay
Little or no playoff pay (pct of gate)
DH for one season
Right to file grievances
Right to request discovery of all revenue and expenses
Owners get
50 ish games
10 team playoffs= $767 million TV revenue
No grievance waivers
Have to open the books through grievance
wouldn’t it be a good idea for the players to reject the latest proposals just to file the grievance and force MLB to open its books? then everyone would know who was right or wrong, all cards are on the table and then the new CBA can get done with full transparency.
Owners don’t have to open their books because they are private companies (except for the Braves, and I think the Blue Jays). They have no reason to show their cash flows, especially in this day and age where the media obtains everything.
If there is a grievance, they will have to open their books and there will be a big fight over how much they have to produce.
If there’s a grievance, they only have to open the books if the arbitrator mandates that. and theres prolly an appeals process
If any part of the reason for shortening the season is financially motivated, they have to open the books under Sec 8 of the NLRA. The union will see this as a huge benefit. The players probably not so much.
Wrong Patrick.
You preface section 8 but it only applies to an INABILITY to pay… as in the teams cannot take loans or pay some other way.
Teams have NEVER said they CAN’T pay, only that they DON’T WANT TO pay.
Section 8 doesn’t apply whatsoever
The most recent case on point makes that distinction. I disagree that it doesn’t apply here. It’s still very broadly interpreted. The operative clause is “economic feasibility” from the March agreement.
But that’s what the motions and grievance procedures are all about.
In other words, AltSoxFan is right and you’re refusing to admit it. Gotcha.
Nope. A discovery motion would almost certainly be granted. Section 8 is right on point.
Patrick, what value would you put on discovery on the books? Just asking for a guess.
Let’s say the owners cancel the season, the players get discovery, and end up losing the grievance. Is this an overall win for the players? A win for union leadership?
Wow, the money players get for playing, just play. If MLB cancels the season it $0 and a year older in a career that each year is precious. By 30 it’s harder to get resigned. Guys that are over 30 see a wasted year. Playball
Owners can also void CBA due to pandemic.
That’s kind of the big question.
Maybe the threat of discovery is worth more than what they get.
If they don’t win the grievance, they can use it in CBA talks, but the owners don’t have to give anything they don’t want to agree upon.
Maybe getting it would convince them to go into a revenue sharing CBA?
AtlSoxFan
People believe what they want to believe. They don’t need logic or reason. They want the owners to open their books, therefore the Union can trick the Owners into opening their books.
And of course if they open their books, people will still believe what they want to believe.
The players don’t need to “trick” the owners into opening their books. The possibility of a grievance has been well known by both sides for months. But you believe what you want to believe. You don’t need any logic or reason.
The law is the law.
Section 8
————–
This is a private affair. Under the CBA, players have a right to file a grievance about any departure from the agreed frameworks. To a PRIVATE, neutral arbitrator.
It has nothing to do with the legal system. It’s all private. The arbitrators probably have to sign confidentiality agreements before getting the job. There’s no danger of anyone’s books being opened up, because if the arbitrator rules against the owners, the owners will just accept the ruling. They have no choice, frankly. Same for the players. Even if they try to take it to public court, it will be thrown out, because both sides agreed to keep these disputes in house.
Before a hearing is ever held on the grievance itself, the parties are entitled to discovery to prepare their case. If any part of the reason given for not scheduling more games is inability to pay, aka “economic feasibility”, then the employees are entitled to have the employers open the books.
It’s a very low bar to meet. The players don’t have to prove their case prior to receiving discovery. They just need to make a prima facie case.
If the owners claim that they’re imposing a shorter schedule because they don’t WANT to pay the players, that runs afoul of the March agreement which requires them to schedule as many games as possible, with several factors to be considered. None of which is how much they want to pay the players.
These are the rules of arbitration. A panel of 3 arbitrators decides the motions and the grievance itself. Both sides understand the procedure very well. It is one of the primary reasons for Manfred meeting with Tony Clark. It is the reason he threatened to cancel the season rather than just impose a schedule.
I would be much more confident in discovery being granted than in the grievance itself prevailing.
Patrick, avoiding that discovery is as simple as MLB stating in their response:
“At no point has MLB or any of its teams stated an inability to pay. In fact, consistent with this stance ownership told the MLBPA they have access to loans and other capital markets to make payroll that do not require accepting deferred salaries at 6% interest. MLB makes no claims of any inability to pay any sums, including full expenses of an entire season.”
The arbiter is free to rule against MLB relative to that point, BUT, then they need to argue over meanings of economic feasibility not relative to inability to pay. This could include things like having a representative season for tv revenue, but doesnt require opening books. Then you’ve got a million other things going on this season that impact what went down that need to be considered
Discovery is not a fishing expedition, it has to be reasonable in scope, and say what it expects to find much like a searxh warrant. there is no entitlement to massive discovery related to a point already conceded.
I don’t agree that avoiding discovery will be simple, and I don’t think that Manfred or the owners believe that either. Discovery will be ordered, and maybe stipulated to. I hope it doesn’t come to that.
If the players’ claim is that owners did not schedule as many games as possible because they simply didn’t want to pay the players, they are entitled to obtain financial records including income and expenses from television contracts, etc. That is not dependent on an inability to pay, aka economic feasibility.
If the owners cite economic feasibility as any part of the reason for scheduling fewer games, the books must be opened on that claim. The players can introduce any number of statements showing the economic motive. But the owners need to give some grounds for setting the number of games that they have. The public and media seem to have little doubt that the owners tactics are not financial. An arbitrator won’t likely come to a different conclusion.
If a grievance is filed, there will be discovery. How broad that is, could be a big fight.
The owners have more than enough money to not care if theres a new CBA. if they want a 5+ year lockout because the players pissed them off, they’ll do so and nobody could prevent it. its unfair that they have all the power but its just the way it is
@cysoxsale. MLB would fold if there was a 5 year labor stoppage. The owners have far to many outstanding debts to not have revenue that long. The last thing MLB wants is lendors to start calling in notes. Most of these owners are not going to pull personal funds or money from their other businesses to keep their team a float that long. And there’s no way MLB is going to allow itself to have 3rd parties take over ownership of its various teams and assets. MLB would want any new owner voted on by their board of governors.
If I were a betting man I’d say MLB could withstand a lock out for maybe 18 months before the pressure really set in. Admittedly thats an out my backside guess, but I’m not very confident in the financial security of teams like the Mets, Pirates, rays and Marlins.
Owners can say players testing positive forced them to cancel the season.
Because then the owners claim that the players didn’t negotiate in good faith
Good summary.
I’m beginning to think that a completely cancelled season is far more likely than it was a few days ago. The handful owners that have wanted a cancelled season can now point to positive cases in spring training facilities, COVID flare ups in key states, and Fauci’s comments about the World Series. Some of this is “new information” after the 60 game proposal. Cancelling due to the virus would be a way to effectively kill the grievance, mitigate losses (or risk), and it might be a good enough excuse to the public. Not sure if this would be successful because they’ve been negotiating finances and downplaying health concerns for a few months now. But I’d bet the “pro-cancellation” caucus is throwing its weight around a lot right now.
Thornt25 –
Lots to he said for your take.
Covid results are increasing.
Leading point man for the infection side of things, Fauci, has come out with some strong statemen’s lately.
Teams and facilities are having positive results.
MLBPA never approved or finished health are protocols before these flareups.
Longevity of the season and access to postseason is more tenuous than before.
Risks of grievance opening books isn’t that high… not only did teams never claim in an inability to pay, they countered part of MLBPA offers to defer salary in certain situations by stating they had access to capital borrowing in other markets PROVING an ability to pay the value of the proposals made by players, which would be the standard a grievance is measured against for value purposes. That knocks section 8 outta the ballpark so to speak. Not sure how players force books open at that point.
Here is the operative clause for a grievance based on MLB scheduling less than “as many games as possible.
“MLB will propose a schedule “using best efforts to play as many games as possible, while taking into account player safety and health, rescheduling needs, competitive considerations, stadium availability, and the economic feasibility of various alternatives.”
After the players’ last “when and where” play, Manfred and the owners found themselves vulnerable in a potential grievance if they scheduled a 50 game season. Plus, they were leaving a lot of playoff revenue on the table. Hence Manfred’s trip to Arizona to either
A- offer the same amount, avoid a grievance, and rescue the playoffs, or
B- If no deal, improve their position in the event of a grievance.
I believe that Manfred wants a season, but not all the owners do.
I think their position in a grievance has indeed improved with this last round. Maybe sticking to their guns on about a $1.5B offer works in their favor on the question of “ability to pay”.
This IS about ability to pay, IMO, based on the language in the March agreement and several public comments and letters from MLB.
In any case, the statute is broadly interpreted for discovery purposes. I think it’s just a question of how much they can dig into. RSN ownership? BAMtech? Maybe not, but maybe.
Patrick, the problem with that quote is a lack of defined terms. Maybe they’re elsewhere in the agreement, BUT, the lack of capitalization in any printing I’ve ever seen points to not being there.
Take playing “as many games as possible”… it DOESN’T say “as many regular season games as possible”… but it COULD’VE.
Every owner proposal tried to expand the playoffs. Expanding playoffs adds games for counting purposes of total undefined games.
Likewise, there was no mandate / need to go beyond the regular end of the total season to do so, although it COULD consider it.
So, start with late october. Build in health concerns with going later. Work backwards knowing bigger playoffs take more games, more time, and you need to shorten regular season games to fit it into that form of schedule.
Those are all valid arguments/ defenses in a grievance. But a showing for discovery is only that there is a plausible claim. The arbitrators can make up their own rules of evidence, on what’s admissible or discoverable. In normal discovery, anything that is reasonably calculated to lead to something relevant has to be turned over.
It’s just a giant headache that the owners don’t want.
Certainly, every day that passes without a deal, and everything that poses a greater health risk works against the success of a grievance.
@atlsoxfan the “as many games as possible” quote is from the section of the agreement subheaded “season”, postseason is discussed in the next section. I think a reasonable person would argue the quote is in direct reference to regular season games as thats the section of the agreement its found in.
There’s a real chance that the union hugely screws its members here by pushing the owners towards cancelling the season in an attempt to look at the books. There’s been a lot of talk about how the owners can lose big, but the downside for players is that they don’t get paid this year and don’t get anywhere with a grievance because the union leaders had their own incentives.
The biggest hurdle in the grievance is that SO many things went wrong healthwise, not just economically, in the country.
Even during the negotiations so much keeps changing and happening… curfews due to protests. Localities not opening up for large events.
As far as I know, places like Cleveland never lifted their blanket prohibition on large entertainment events. Big cities around the court have this patchwork, not to mention what governors did/decide to do.
There’s been multiple cases of spreading through facilities and employees/athletes already.
Too many moving parts to say AHA – THAT’S WHY THEY DID THIS!!! and claim bad faith.
Yes there is. And a big chance that they lose that $33M which means real money to minimum salaried players and minor leaguers who make up about 60%- ish of union membership. But those guys aren’t on the “committee”. That’s all veterans.
Minor league players are not members of the union. You’re right, though. It should be a vote by the members, not a committee of guys making 8 figures.
Stick with the original & reject the latest offer.
If COVID-19 is the reason the season gets cancelled, I could live with it. But it would be a shame if the season were cancelled because both sides are being idiots. There’s no excuse for them not coming to an agreement already. Both sides are to blame.
I feel like the league’s last offer was more than reasonable. I’m not happy with anyone at this point, but I will especially be upset with players if they don’t take this offer. I want some baseball already (Corona permitting).
If you feel the owners last offer is fair, you must have trouble with math.
Who are you to decide what is “fair?”
I didn’t say fair, I said reasonable. What’s not fair is that we can’t enjoy baseball right now because they keep arguing over money.
The two sides are so close compared to a month ago that both offers should be considered reasonable.
Thornt25-
They’re closer than before, but, still a good way apart.
Season player salaries are 4.1billion. For one game that’s 25.3million.
For 10 games player prorated salary is $253 million
10 games means 150 contests (30teams/2).
150 games at $3m per to cover operating/producton costs, travel, covid protocols, umpires, staff, etc etc is $450million.
So a ’10 game’ gap can cost $700+ million in costs effectively.
Yeah it’s not nothing. And I haven’t liked what appears to be 11th hour demands by Clark (and the acid tongued response). But the MLBPA isn’t proposing absurd schedules and the MLB isn’t fighting pro-rata. 66 games without more playoff revenue should be a done deal, but I’m afraid the COVID related news items are going to loom larger.
The owners are so used to arguing and never giving in that they are missing a great opportunity here. They should just accept the players latest offer, in full, with the proviso that the players cannot file any grievance. That would expose the players and leave them twisting in the breeze. The players would reject the offer, no doubt. The most important thing, really the only important thing to the players anymore, are the owners books. They will never give up their grievance. The owners should just give them everything else they want and when the players reject it they will be exposed.
Minus some portion of $5.3 billion in TV revenue, or $ 4.5B for the regular season to the extent it’s dependent on actually playing games.
One article said they agreed a game is worth $1.6667M in salaries.
Haslam said that RSN revenue is prorated, but we know that’s a broad statement with 30 different contracts. If so, that’s $2.2 billion/ 162 or $13.5M per game.
I don’t see $3M per game- almost twice as much as salaries in costs being in the ballpark. I’m not sure of your formula there. There are fixed costs and variable costs per game. The owners said $300 M for 10 games, but that’s without TV revenue in the equation
The cost of a game to owners will be less than what salaries are worth to players, but different for each team.
The other $2.3B in TV revenue is national and split among all teams. That helps smaller market clubs, who also have smaller payrolls, and also tend to have lower gate receipts. A triple whammy that makes them less worse off. And why revenue sharing is out for this season.
How do you play 70 games in just over 2 months? I think you are the one with a math problem.
I think the 60 games is ultimately what it will be. However, it doesn’t make sense to accept outright because players couldn’t file grievances. Rather, they can decline and Manfred can set the same schedule but they’d reserve the right to grieve.
This isn’t the “league’s latest offer”. This is the agreement that was reached between Clark and Manfred when they got together and negotiated a deal, which Clark backed out of the next day.
If manfred felt he had an agreement, why didn’t he convene the board of governors to ratify it? “Framework” and “done deal” are not the same. Given how many ppl are howling ‘its only ten games!” Would it not be reasonable to suggest that the players counter was still within the framework?
There was a “gentleman’s agreement”. Then one side decided they wanted more. Who is at fault?
This is a common negotiating tactic: come to an agreement, let everyone think it is over and everyone is happy, then tack on a bunch more demands at the last second in the hope that the other side will just give in. It is a common tactic, but it is still a dirty tactic.
The postponement of the vote implies a fracture within the union.
Rank and file, low service time, low wage players likely want a yes vote.
They heard rumblings of the union execs who make up over 20% of the votes unified or nearly so for ‘no’.
Then most team union reps are also veterans with decent contracts and career earnings. I’d bet they are hearing a mouthful from the other 25 guys on each team’s 40 man who want a yes.
So now the vote is delayed a few days before they face an internal revolt.
Or coming up with a counter?
You can vote on a proposal without needing to make a counter yet.
No, smart odds are that there’s a problem with different factions within the players having different priorities
Also, just recently the Gov in FL came out saying their 4,000 positive daily tests are NOT accounted for by increases in testing as previously claimed… rock the boat a little further.
Meanwhile, time ticks away…
what a circus.
im supposed to be sitting on the coca cola patio at Busch right now with a group of 12, enjoying a Saturday afternoon baseball game. instead, we get to watch millionaires and billionaires in a junk measuring contest. meanwhile, my 1600 bucks for today’s would- be game hasn’t been refunded. figure it out. at least give me back my money.
Damn that’s a lot of money to be out. I still can’t back the $183 for MLB Extra Innings I paid Directv, even though they said they’d give it back to me in April. Good luck getting your money back.
MLB.tv is a better deal if you have a decent ISP for streaming
yeah 1600 is for all 12 tickets. I just fronted the money for the group. I’ll get it back. im not worried about it. the cardinals have already refunded my April tickets. im just done with the whole thing. although…….DeWitt DID say that they weren’t very profitable…. lol smh
how ironic. I literally just opened the mailbox and there’s a refund check. huh. I figured it would just credit back to the credit card. whatever lol.
Have you contacted STL ticketing?
You wouldn’t be there anyway (no fans in the stands). Even if they agreed, the camps are closed because they are wiping everything down to prevent the spread of the COVID-19 virus. So even if everyone had agreed on everything at the beginning, Spring Training couldn’t have begun until July 1 at the earliest
Last year I used to buy redsox/yankees games on the green monster. Tiered pricing meant some games, and some box levels, we’re anywhere from $900 low end up to over $1500 high end at face value.
Glad I didn’t buy any this year. Didn’t buy any games from the hometown braves either.
Just cancel 2020 already and start fresh in 2021.
I guess as a Marlins fan, it’s always wait till next year
I suspect the players will accept this deal*.
They’ll be lucky to play all 60 games, no reason to hold out longer for more games that might not happen anyway.
*Assuming they living and/or family situations are properly addressed in the deal.
Jon Heyman is saying not likely
“Early word: 8-man union Executive Subcommittee may be near unanimous for rejecting MLB’s 60-game framework/proposal and instead letting commish set schedule. May be 7-1 for no w/Daniel Murphy seen as possible dissenter. Unpredictable but rank/file may also lean opposed to MLB 60.”
I haven’t seen a “take it or leave it” comment from the owners so far, just that 60 games is their max and they weren’t going to counter.
I’d wager MLB is more likely to cancel the season than impose one at this point given both the recent positive infections in players and personnel plus the spiking positive results in the sun belt.
Remember, some states and cities haven’t cleared activities like mlb to operate anyways, which forces those teams/games into the hotbed of positive results at those alternate sites.
That’s entirely possible. Then we’d almost surely get a completely different kind of grievance with the players claiming that the cancellation was not motivated by health concerns.
The owners would be leaving a bunch of playoff revenue on the table and have to repay a bunch more on TV contracts.
The whole thing would be a lot less acrimonious if the CBA forced them to become partners and agree on what revenues to share like other sports. The players need a new vision going forward, IMO.
I don’t think the owners let manfred cancel the season until we’re past the point on the calendar where there are no longer enough days to have a “representative season” as defined by their TV contracts. Whatever that number is, once they are past the point where the TV guys can back out of the playoff money, the season could be canceled. Until then its a bluff and bluster. I don’t doubt COVID19 is real, and dangerous. I just don’t think the owners really care one way or another if their non face of the franchise players get it.
If I was an owner I’d cancel the season and the CBA if the players vote against the 60 game proposal. If they honestly don’t want to play they can all retire.
I missed the part about the 38 player vote and took the headline to mean it was getting to all 750 or so for a vote.
They aren’t getting a much better deal than this offer.
Personally I don’t think union execs should be voting, it should be the players themselves since it’s their season, salaries, and livelihood.
Nature of unions though would’ve given up that right when the beast was created.
Let full membership vote, and let that be binding on the execs.
That’s the way the deck is stacked.
And the way payrolls are stacked.
And why veterans just reaching free agency struggle to get signed when some kid earning $563,500 can provide most of the value.
Expect the owners to make bottom heavy proposals in the next round. Trying to split the players that way.
If full membership voted they would vote yes for 60 games. Most players are never getting a big pay day so losing a season is a big deal to them.
The executive committee are all players. Every two years the players vote on an 8 man executive committee of fellow players. Individual teams also have 1 player rep that’s voted on as needed. All 38 voters are current MLB players.
The MLBPA Clownshow. “Tell Us When and Where”
“No, Give Us More Money”. “Wait, We’ll Vote On It Now That the Virus is Infecting Players” “Wait, We May Want to File a Grievance”.
Pull the plug on 2020/2021.
Manfred and Clark are both clowns
I’m sure there’s at least one owner who wants to (a) cancel 2020 and (b) lockout the players for 2021 unless they agree to an owner friendly CBA.
Never let a good crises go to waste.
Probably half a dozen owners are fine with canceling the season, but any lockout would be for 2022, after the current CBA expires. In the meantime, they can just not sign players and non tender a few hundred of them.
Pandemic gives the right for the owners to rip up the CBA.
rip up the cba? I thought it was void current season contracts/salaries, which is why the march agreement included an upfront payment that would not need to be repaid in the event the season was canceled.
I mean there’s zero chance the owners rip up the actual CBA, even if they could. Theyve owned the union in negotiations for a decade now and tearing it up puts all their gains back on the table.
Jerry Reinsdorf still own the the White Sox? There’s your one owner if he does.
Just take the deal! This is getting so silly
If the players reject they should counter – accept the 60 game regular season but ask for a bigger cut of the postseason. I think the owners might go for that.
I think so too. If they can get back to the $50 million playoff pool that was offered by both sides before the owners’ last proposal, and still keep some forgiveness for the minimum salary players, that should do it.
you’re probably onto to something there
People just play. At least you are getting a prorate of something is betting that a prorate of nothing
Just get the deal done already. -_-
“When and Where”
It’s coming back.
“When and where, 2.0”
“When and where” will have much less potency this time around.
why? Last time the owners came to the table. If the players come back with when and where I think you’ll see the owners come back to the table one more time with a last and final offer.
This last offer WAS the “last and final offer”. If the players didn’t come back then why should the owners believe they will next time?
where did ownership say this was their final offer? I seem to have missed it
“When and where” was an effective PR strategy because it implied that players just wanted to play and weren’t interested in economics like those greedy billionaire owners. This obviously plays well with fans. The real strategy was “Impose a short schedule so we can sue.”.
It’s now dead as a PR strategy because MLB tried to propose a 60 game schedule, they rejected it and countered with 70 games and more playoffs money….look at that, we’re in economics world again.
Does anyone know who the player reps for each team + the board are?
There’s a committee of 38 to vote. One player rep from each team plus an executive committee of 8 players.
The 8 are Scherzer, Murphy, Andrew Miller, Andrus, Gearrin, Ianetta, Paxton and McHugh.
Phillies rep is Rys Hoskins
I think Justin Turner is the Dodgers player rep.
The Pirates is Jameson Taillon.
i hope they players file a grievance regardless. owners have made this a sham. open the damn books.
You don’t understand about “private” businesses, do you? They get to keep their affairs to themselves. “Public” companies that accept investor capital need to disclose their financials. If its “show and tell” time, maybe the players can disclose their finances so the public can judge whether they’re worth all that money!
National labor relations act, Section 8. Informally, the Collective Bargaining Act requires employers to open the books if they claim inability to pay. A claim that more games is not economically feasible would fit the description. Public comments are admissible to make that showing. The discovery motion would be granted in this case. Whether they win the grievance is another matter.
Patrick – can you provide the citation to the case law from a binding authority for the same jurisdiction the grievance will be filed that supports your interpretation?
Owners never said they can’t pay. In fact, owners directly said they didn’t need to defer salaries to players with interest to players citing the ability to borrow money elsewhere.
Economic feasability doesn’t relate to inability to pay. Economic feasability can refer to maintaining a revenue neutral operation for the year, or maintaining traditional profit percentage.
Fact is, nobody said what the standard of feasability to be measured against was. That’s a HUGE hole in your interpretation right there.
But the owners aren’t saying more games aren’t economically feasible. They’re saying a hard cut off by November 1at due to pandemic 2 wave when fall comes.
Doesn’t matter,… COVID has or will kill season. Been saying this a while now…. can’t have pro sports with COVID still around. With or without fans. Players will all hit on the DL with COVID
And that would go absolutely nowhere Patrick. We are talking about the finances of mlb teams. I am guessing that it would take a team of financial geniuses to even attempt to decider a team’s financials. They would need a team for all 30 mlb teams.
This is a grievance that the Union can never win. I mean, at least 1 poor team is going to be losing money this year. Even if teams like the Yankees, Dodgers and Sox are still making hundreds of millions of dollars, all it takes is for 1 team to be losing money (Rays, Marlins, etc.) and the Union loses. If 1 team cannot pay it makes MLB’s offers acceptable and “in good faith.”
This has nothing to do with the money this year, the Coronavirus, number of games, any of that. The players will never agree to any plan that gets rid of their grievance. It is all about making the owners open their books. The players will use anything that is found there as ammunition for the next CBA. The players are not entitled to this info and they know it. I bet the players are delighted that Covid came along! Now that the season is shortened they can say “no good faith” and force MLB to show all of their cards.
The players could not care less about us fans. The owners care about us, but only as cash cows. Neither side is thinking about us or where their money ultimately comes from. There will be a 50 game season which Manfred will mandate. That’s it. The owners could offer the players their full salaries, not pro-rated but FULL salaries, and the player would reject it in an instant. They want the books.
It is all about propoganda. Even if the books show that MLB is not making nearly as much as the MLBPA thought, it doesn’t matter. All they have to do is show the fans huge numbers and most fans will be on their side. They won’t have to explain what the numbers mean. People are stupid. I mean, look at what both political parties are doing to this country with propoganda. MLB’s books are the ultimate weapon. It’s a 100 megaton nuclear warhead. The players are willing to sacrifice this year’s salaries, this season and I am sure would gladly sacrifice every fan’s life to get it. Negotiations are already over. What we are watching is just a show.
The citation is the statute, part of section 8.
The factual basis of the grievance based on economic feasibility is in the March agreement and numerous statements from owners about how they’re losing $4 billion and losing money with each game played, etc.
“MLB will propose a schedule “using best efforts to play as many games as possible, while taking into account player safety and health, rescheduling needs, competitive considerations, stadium availability, and the economic feasibility of various alternatives.”
The owners obviously would defend it every way they can, but they could also stipulate to discovery, limiting it to just those finances that apply to this season’s revenue and expenses.
I don’t think it’s the same thing. A player’s worth is determined by his performance, or more accurately by the hopes of his future performance. How much money he has in his bank account and other assets doesn’t affect his viability on the field. In the case of the owners, if they’re claiming they will lose X amount of dollars with no ticket sales, they have no other way to prove it besides opening the books. Apples and oranges.
revenue from tickets, parking, concessions and so forth are already known. Varies from 30-42 percent of game day revenue. No need to dig any deeper.
The owners are not opening their books unless one of the two things happen. 1: All companies have to. This is what Elizabeth Warren suggested. Is it Constitutional? That would be for courts to decide. 2: Bankruptcy. If there are a couple of years without baseball, that could happen to a weak team. Ex: The Orioles and the MASN problem and the Davis Contract
there’s a third option to force books open…
Congress holds a hearing on the anti-trust exemption, and, subpoenas the books for a legislative purpose. Sort of the loophole they try to use on the great cheeto and his taxes. (Aside: I hate all major political parties)
Not only does congress have more leaks than a screen door on a submarine, but it’d probably be put into the open records and open hearings anyways.
Cheeto would dissolve the government and declare Marshall Law before he would let Congress do anything anti-trust.
So baseball loses anti trust exemption. Big deal. None of the other sports have it and they are doing fine,
Its not about opening the books to the public. Just the union. Even if the owners are forced to open up, unless it was done in open court, we’ll never see whats in them.
Something tells me the players and owners have never been to a yard sale and earned the art of the haggle… just meet in the middle.
Or read “The Art of the Deal.”
Assuming they reject the proposal, just cancel the season. Better that then more virus shutdowns and a nasty arbitration process
Since every team with a pulse makes the playoffs anyway from here on out, why bother with the regular season? Just go straight to the playoffs. I certainly won’t be paying attention during the pointless regular season ever again.
Prologue and posturing to the real prize, the next CBA.
For the players to vote no they lose money. So the players being smart will vote no and hope the courts give them money, players are idiots to vote no.
Shortened season is not worth a life long injury for any player they just need to cancel the whole season simple as that
Shut it down the already rich and sniveling had there chance.
No agreement = No season. The owners won’t risk a grievance and they don’t want any part of a season without the expanded playoffs, especially for 2021. So get prepared for a ‘we can’t play any sort of a season due to COVID’ explanation.
Recent test results support that interpretation
I certainly would not play. I could see the players asking for 162 game pay at 100%., and claiming collusion
Players and owners both, haven’t cared about fans for 30 years, why do we expect anything different now, or when the CBA expires after the ‘21 season.
I hope they reject it. While 70 doesn’t either, 60 games does not make a season. And expanding the the playoffs to more than half the teams is just a tournament, which ESPN likes. The extra inning change is bogus. The owners diminish the regular season and traditional rules all in the name of their playoff money. No different than the NBA, NHL or NFL. Baseball used to be better.
I never understood the people who said 60 games doesn’t make a good season.
So 1981 wasn’t a good season?
1981 was 108 games I believe. At least they got in 2/3 of a season.
I guess we will see baseball in maybe 2023. 2021 will be like this year then 2022 will be lockout or strike.
This whole thing has been a lesson in how not to negotiate. You don’t reject proposals. You take the proposal, call up the other party, and hash out the details you don’t like about it. Go back and forth for a bit until you meet somewhere in the middle.
Sending proposals, rejecting them, sending new proposals– i’ve never seen anyone negotiate like that, and I work in business negotiations.
On the players’ side yes.
But Manfred has managed to somehow keep the owners’ salary exposure right at $1.5 billion, with a few caveats for playoffs and up front guarantees. Pretty good result if he gets it.
Also the apparent lack of defined terms in the leaked clauses.
The ambiguity is horrible, a 2nd year law student could do better.
It’s almost as if both sides thought they would get to pull one over on the other guy by being vague, but now, everyone points to each clause as meaning opposite things.
Without seeing the document, it’s got to be one of the most ridiculous acts of butchery in sports lawyering. And these guys make BANK.
Right, build on mother ideas agreed upon, players and owners are stuck on stupid. A good federal mediator probably could have gotten this done long ago.
I’ll never understand why fans side with the owners. The greedy billionaires are the “good guys?”
Well go to a college football game and before and after listen to all the arrogant/ignorant players talking about what they are and what they are worth when they haven’t even made their first 100K from the sport…
Now ya know what the problem is … heck I used to be one of those arrogant suckers although it wasn’t football.
Why do fans side with owners?
Because this fan saw how Fehr and Miller handled the PED scandal and watched the congressional hearings.
There are players dead and buried who were not protected by the Union. Many records are now a joke because players were protected by the Union. We missed a chance to get an entire new generation of fans with Stanton chasing the HR crown because of the Union.
It’s because the Union is even worse than the Owners.
Because owners spend billions on brainwashing them through the media.
Accusing one side of being brainwashed is one of the lowest forms of debate. Is usually done when the accuser can’t otherwise make a logical case.
You realize that a good number of these owners don’t have billions sitting in a bank account to swim in like Uncle Scrooge. A good chunk of their worth is in the value of the team. Now a major revenue stream (attendance) has been eliminated. And you want them to just carry on as if nothing changed. But it’s ok because they are “billionaires” so they just have the money sitting around right? With the loss of a lot of revenue most businesses would just lay people off, but people shame them when they try so the cuts have to come from somewhere. I’m sure it’s easy for YOU to spend their money, but they are in the business of making money, it’s not a charity.
That doesn’t mean I don’t think they are at fault here. Both parties are being unreasonable with no concern about the fans. The players and Clark are being led around by Scott Boras. He is banking that the owners will blink first. He is sorely mistaken.
Even if Manfred mandates a 50 game season, I don’t think they will get half of those games played before they are forced to cancel the season because of players sick with the Virus.
I don’t think they’ll get through the “spring training” period.
1 week in 10% will have the virus.
Look at the premier league and tell me that again
I’m hoping the players reject the latest owner proposal just because of the idiotic extra inning rule. Frankly, I don’t see why the players would accept the current offer anyway. It’s basically the same one the commissioner could force upon the players less their ability to file a grievance. Even though I lean towards supporting the owners side with the hopes it might evolve into future revenue sharing, a salary cap and high minimum spending floor in time for the next CBA, it would be silly for the MLBPA to accept this latest offer.
At this point, I would just assume the 2020 season be cancelled anyway. A schedule reduced to 60 regular season games, playing with no fans in attendance, any divisions and a championship won along with accumulated 2020 stats would be diminished to the point of being meaningless. With the current spike in cases and the prospect of a second wave of this already mutated coronavirus by autumn, the likelihood of making it through the regular and postseason is improbable.
The extra inning rule is for the players. The players don’t want to play 16 inning games.
The extra inning rule is one of Manfred’s babies, along with a pitch clock, banning defensive shifts, limiting pitching changes, and some others that are already implemented. He used the pandemic to get it implemented this season. The report was that Manfred wanted it for 2 years and the players proposed one year.
Oh good, so they’re going to come to an agreement after it’s become apparent that a season is untenable.
That’s nice.
Now they can pretend it’s all better and schedule a season and start “spring training” and after a week or ten days, when there’s an outbreak in ever single camp they can mutually cancel it.
And this entire three months public cat fight will have been for exactly nothing.
Absolute morons, all of them. And we are morons to care.
I find the people watching from the posters on this site pretty fascinating
More than 70% of these folks are going to come out of this thinking it was either the players or owners that was the reason for no baseball in 2020….
Alarming might be a better word than fascinating if Im being honest.
At this point, and health being on the line, I’m completely on the player’s side. Reject this, let MLB set the schedule and litigate on bad faith (and show owners the players are the essential good to their bread & butter) or have them cancel the season, and show owners they should’ve reached an agreement earlier or be ready for a longer struggle later with 2021 CBA talks.
As a fan, I don’t care what they do. I’m protesting any monetary contributions to any of it until my kids ask… I’m seriously pissed at both sides.
Even though this is the best odds for the Mariners to actually make the playoffs I am kind of over this season. Blink and it’s July and we would have teams lining up blockbuster trades which really makes this site fun to read. But now? 2-3 months of baseball is like a Costco sample (which they don’t do anymore thanks coronavirus). I say just pack it in, let this pandemic get fixed and I will see you in March.
Not really.
Though that’s technically true for every team, Seattle was projected to have the second worst record in baseball just behind Baltimore. They weren’t/aren’t likely going to contend.
Not having a season would hurt every team, some way, but with Seattle it would be the lost year of development. That could change their approach in the offseason as well.
Well folks, I wish these back and forth negotiations hadn’t been played out so fervently through the media. I realize it has soured many fans on baseball. As far as those with tickets, I’m sure the teams will eventually refund those games that have not been played. Teams are probably waiting for the dust to clear before making any decisions. I know a lot of fans are justifiably frustrated, but I hope you will not totally give up on baseball. We can’t predict what will happen, but we can hope for the best under the circumstances.
I highly doubt MLB will offer any refunds. The best fans can hope for at this time is a credit towards future games and maybe a voucher for a free hot dog with their next purchase of a $9 soda.
Rangers are offering refunds to holders of individual game tickets. Season Ticket Holders are being looked at on a case by case basis, but generally credit toward their 2021 Season Tickets.
Ah ok, good on the Rangers . Hopefully all teams will be doing something similar. This is one topic where I’m glad my first instinct was wrong
So they stick the 2021 DH rule on this deal like a pork barrel rider to the Defense Authorization bill. MLB is not covering itself in glory.
This was all a well coordinated conspiracy involving both the MLB and MLBPA to get fans to accept a universal DH and ads on uniforms.
Distract us with sexy topics like pro rata and national TV revenue.
Not only that, but they shoved in a rule to start extra innings with a runner on 2nd base. The biggest bastardization of the game of baseball in history.
I’d vote against it just on that alone.
DH is the biggest historic bastardization, until they remove pitchers entirely.
Ball on a tee is always in the strike zone 😉
I find the tampering with the 21′ playoffs the worst
So if the owners impose a 60 game schedule (even at the risk of a grievance), will there still be expanded playoffs this year? I assume it’s in the owners’ economic interest even if the players waive any claim to it by rejecting the last offer.
P.s. the league can file a grievance too…
If Covid is rearing it’s ugly head again, as some outlets are reporting, season is only going to get delayed even more. I understand and support waiting until the last minute, but we are getting close to the point of no return. Ultimately, though, I think the season will get cancelled, and until the virus runs its course, maybe it should be cancelled.
Agreed. I would hate to see the players go through the effort of preparing to play a season, only to have the season canceled. I get that there are people who think they “need” baseball, but reality tells us its trivial at this point.
I agree. I will miss baseball in 2020, but they just cant play considering Covids strength heading into July.
Hopefully, this is something that can be beaten.
First comment here. Been baseball fan since 1954 so yes, I am old! Both owners and players are pissing me off with their back and forth crap neither group giving one healthy you know what about the fans. If they play a 60 game schedule or 70 for that matter, the season is so very tainted that it is meaningless.. Even a crap team can go on a 30 day tear which would likely propel them into the playoffs. Who wants to see the Astros play the Orioles in a 5 game playoff series? Why not move the end of the labor agreement up to 07/01/20, cancel the season, begin new negotiations for a labor agreement and be ready for next year. Start the trading season at the same time – that’d at least give us some new reading materiaL other that the daily dribble from both sides. Besides, if they start a 70 game season in July, I guarantee, guarantee that at least one player will get the virus and all further games will be scrapped anyways so do us all a favor and just end it now.
I agree, start the negotiations on the new agreement. Call this season over. If they play hundreds will get the virus, and there will be some loss of life.
This is turning into a depressing bad dream. The covid virus…
Common sense! Finally!
Is there a list of those 38 players or is it not public?
It is now apparent that we need the phone numbers an addresses of the 38 more than just a list.;
I hear that if they aren’t answering there is a sale on black garage door paint!!!
It’s been made public. The 8 executive committee members plus the 30 player reps, one from each team.
So now the players are gonna wait a week then vote no and say they are to old and are gonna die of covid becuz the greedy owners didn’t pay em enough Cheetos!!! What a joke the players union and their reps are.
As if the owners have been so fast with their responses. You do realize the players delaying only helps the owners cause (to play fewer games) at this point?
Players will get back to owners sometime in July…
Players: NO DEAL! We want 70 games.
Manfred: Season begins on August 1 with a 40 game schedule so it can end on September 27.
My point is, stop taking so damn long! The players can’t figure it out by Sunday? Sometime next week? Really!? The year will be over by the time these clowns sort it out.
Exactly. It’s been reported that the players are going to almost unanimously vote down the proposal so, if that’s the case, why wait? Let’s face it. Any season is a long shot to happen.
Yeah. I feel this whole mess is on the players at this point.
I’ve only been to one game since the ’94 strike… the tickets & motel room were a gift. A pox on both houses. The taxpayers need to see the books of every club using taxpayers funds to maintain & purchase ballparks.
Can we retro see Jeffrey Loria’s even though he no longer is involved in baseball?
Clock is ticking for even getting 60 games in. Wonder what kind of chess move this is by the union?? Plain silly
The union already got what they wanted-a grievance. Now they are going to try to use it to force MLB to open it’s books. The season is entirely inconsequential to them.
The season is inconsequential to the owners. They want the fewest games possible.
This is chess not checkers friend. I’m all for the Union letting this asterisk fall by the wayside if it leads to fundamental changes in the CBA.
Let’s all remember that even if the negotiations had gone smoothly, there wouldn’t be any baseball now. There wouldn’t be Spring Training since MLB has shut down the Florida and Arizona training sites. Some teams could train at their ballparks, but the same issues that plagued Florida and Arizona would exist. With all the players testing positive in all sports ( Clemson,LSU, Texas football players), it’s still not safe to have large gatherings in many states. The NFLPA had advised their players not to work out together. The NBA has yet to approve the Orlando plan. The NHL hasn’t picked the hub cities to begin their 24 team playoffs. So instead of blaming the players, owners or both, let’s blame the real culprit-the COVID-19 virus.
Yes, its Covid. I hate to say it, now the season looks over. There are too many states heading the wrong direction again.
Why is 65 so difficult? Oh, that’s right, math is hard.
Because 60 borderlines on impossible. Five could push them to a dangerous date even 60 really flirts with it. Owners are not in complete agreement on 60. Go back to them at 65 and that’s a really hard sell
Besides the negotiations, which are close, I’m more concerned that they just cant play.
Face it, Covid cases are popping up everywhere now. Anything with groups of people. I dont think they will play due to Covid.
Vegas that’s probably the biggest concern in my eyes. Let’s say it’s not even league spread. What if Cole for the Yankees, flaherty for the cardinals, trout for the angels goes down. Not just a normal injury where it’s part of the game. In a shortened season it could kill them
When and where is a joke. The owners caved on that, forgave them upfront payment the players received, and now that the owners have come all this way their grievance is a pipe dream. Accept what is a fair deal and be happy it not ten or fifteen games less with no playoff bonus. Bash the owners all you want they have caved on the core disagreements and if the players can’t come to terms on that I’m not sure what their argument has been. I cannot believe the owners have come this far. For those saying what’s ten more games well it’s a lot when you put your best offer on the table. Any more and we risk not completing. The playoffs which would be insane
The players will vote no, then use their ability to file a grievance in their negotiation for the next CBA. Then we get to live through this BS all over again.
If Manfred does impose the number of games, he should make it 54. That’s 1/3 of 162. Make it easier to convert stats to compare to a full season
There is a point in that, but everything should be about preventing the spread of the virus.
The fact is, the more games, the longer the season, the greater the likelihood there will be an outbreak that cancels the season.
No rush, guys. Take your time.
I think the owners are trying to set the stage for a Lockout. With me being a fan of a small market team I have to be on the owners side. The payroll of the baseball team should not be dictated by the size of the television market. Baseball needs a cap with a floor and a ceiling.
Totally seems like Tony Clarke knows what he’s doing. Totally.
smart
No agreement = No season, regardless of COVID.
So they will vote no today. Cool
bring on some scabs
At this point I’m all for it as long as they are wearing the uniforms of the teams. Something is better than nothing.
Would never happen. Even if they don’t have to pay the players the owners are losing millions by not having fans in the stands. Plus most teams have released 30 or so of their fringe minor leaguers. The kind who would be replacement players. No way a team would use a top prospect as a scab and have them tarnished for life. For many owners the best option is no baseball this year-they just don’t want to admit it publicly
I don’t understand why the PA would accept this deal over the past ones. I don’t think it’s worth it for them to give up so much for 10 games. I’m not talking about the 70 they asked for but to accept the 60 over the 50 that MLB will probably impose. They’ll give up their chance to file a grievance, expand the playoffs for this year and next year, which just adds more money to the owners pockets plus the additional revenue from uniform ads. As a fan I want to see baseball played, but also as a fan I don’t want to see this watered down abbreviated, poor excuse for a season that’s being pushed. Blasphemy, but I’d rather they cancel the season than see a universal DH, 16 team playoff, new extra innings rules, uniform ads, etc. or whatever else MLB wants to throw in there. They’re killing the game, plain and simple.
If they vote to reject they lose a lot more than a few games pay. They would receive not a dime more,than what they already got paid so far if I am not mistaken. They got paid a small percentage of their contract assuming that no season would be played. That was agreed upon in March.. if there are no games played they get nothing more. Seems to me I’d they vote no, they are cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Not blasphemy at all: that’s integrity!
That “When and Where” is looking pretty dubious now. And before you hit back with the “you are defending billionaires” bs I think both sides are a bunch of moronic clowns.
Absolutely. Both sides have been posturing for the new CBA since this began and both sides have been doing so through the media. The players even have agents, led by Boras helping to push the player’s side through the media.
Instead being told “when and where” the players were given an offer. They are voting on that very same offer today.
I dont think its fair to claim “when and where” was dubious until the players are actually told when and where and we see how they respond to that.
Countering the offer, or now possibly declining it, does not run contradictory to the statement either as the terms between “when and where” and the owners’ proposal are wildly different. “When and where, among other things, implies playing under the rules as they are. No changes.
People are missing the boat on “when and where”. After Tony Clark said it , MANFRED, was the one who resumed negotiations. Manfred is the only one who can unilaterally reopen baseball. Tony Clark can’t do that. Why Manfred didn’t do it remains a mystery. My hunch is that a substantial minority of owners don’t want a season. The loss of attendance, more so than this silly quibbling over salaries is the main reason. But no owner is going to go on record saying that-the backlash would be too severe. Instead pick a fight with the union and make it look like they are the ones holding it up. Been following baseball since 1968 and through all the changes one thing remains constant. Fans are always complaining about players salaries. Manfred is doing the owners job perfectly-instead of focusing on the hundreds of millions the owners are losing by not allowing fans, we are all talking about the 10-15 million or so in salaries that are the difference between 60 or 70 games.
I would rather watch Trout, Harper and Tatis for 60 games than nothing. I don’t care if there is a DH in the NL or an expanded playoff. If those thing offend your delicate sensibilities, feel free to watch the games from the 80s and 90s on all day on MLB network. I want to watch MLB baseball, we know this year is already a #$&* show so does it really matter? I’m watching European soccer for gods sake and I hate soccer.
And that attitude is exactly what the owners are banking on. Let’s destroy the fabric of the game and blame the players because we know the majority of fans don’t have the capacity to truly appreciate what’s really happening…
I notice you didn’t mention Acuna. Sure, he’s a bit immature, but he’s one of the most talented young players in the game and he’s only going to get better.
The players will vote no and the season will be canceled. Why? 1: If the Commissioner tries to impose X amount of games, here is what happens. 1: No expanded playoffs. 2 They become open to not only arbitration, but the possibility of not having to pay for 114 or even 70 games, but 162 at 100%. Why? The players can charge collusion and say they just wanted to stall and the arbitrator can actually make that decision. The owners are not that stupid.
I agree. And what does this do for a 2021 season? We already know with 100% certainty that 2022 will be a lockout or strike. As a Padre fan this was the timeframe all the tanking was supposed to pay off. Awesome
The lockout might actually happen next year. Why? The owners do not need the possibility of a strike hanging over their heads. That is especially true if the virus returns and fans cannot get to games in person. This fall, I could even see teams decline arbitration to all players except the elites ( like Betts). In the case of the Yankees, say bye bye to Paxton and Tanaka ( as well as Happ).
This is why unions are on the decline in North america
Unions are in decline because the rober barons and their lackeys they own in the government want them to be. It’s much easier to amass great wealth by exploiting people and the planet, externalizing the economic costs of production if you will, so the corporate crooks can amass ungodly riches at “below market” prices. It’s why we have outsourcing!! And it’s why unions came into existence to begin with. Now that we are back on that race to the bottom again it won’t deliver the economic utopia many fantasize about no matter how loudly the Chicago school of economics and their dogmatic devotees opine at the impending rise of the American Phoenix from the ruins of the idiocy where society had the gall to tell Alcoa you can’t destroy places real people live.
Precisely why any “fan” of baseball supporting the owner’s position aren’t truly fans. It’s simple math and history.
IBEW steward here, and I largely agree. However, let’s not pretend the various players’ Associations are typical unions. They are not.
californiatribesman – fans should be supporting themselves and the games. Neither side should be chosen or supported more than the other. If the game priced themselves out of affordability they lose you as a fan. That’s simple math and logic you clearly lack.
Unions did not come into existence so millionaires could get raises. That was never their purpose. It’s to give a fair shake to low level workers and normal people, not to arbitrate between two outrageously successful parties. The idea that millionaire players are exploited is utter nonsense. Stadium security is, for example, likely underpaid. Players are not and owners making money is not evidence of a broken system.
I feel like the players do not want an agreement. I feel like they want Manfred to force a season so they can file a grievance in hopes of seeing the books. Then they’ll use the findings to negotiate the next CBA. If I’m an owner, I would say to hell with these players and use my minor leaguers.
It’s the owners that don’t want an agreement. Why else hasn’t Manfred issued his “when and where” declaration? For many owners having a season will cost them hundreds of millions in lost revenue due to no fans in the stands. Also there is this small little matter called the COVID-19 virus. Players on the Phillies and Yankees have been testing positive. Facilities have been shut down. What’s going to happen when they all congregate? We keep forgetting this is not a labor dispute-it’s a shutdown caused by a worldwide pandemic. As for “bringing up the minors “ the owners have no desire to do that. Easier just to shut the game down and wait for next year
I don’t think it is correct to say that one side or the other doesn’t want an agreement. There are 30 owners and 1200 players, all with their own feelings on the matter. There are apparently some owners who would cancel the season. I haven’t heard of that from any players.
The majority of owners and pretty much all the players want an agreement- on their terms.
The difference is that the owners are business men with more ways of making money than baseball. The players are employees who make their money playing baseball. The players need a season more than the owners do.
How are they going to vote on Sunday? It better be in person. Let’s hold them to the same standard as our morbidly agog ghastly america. None of those other questionable methods. And let’s hold the games in Tulsa, there will be a million fans there waiting. Easily.
While we are waiting on the “ Vote”, could someone help me out? I’m trying to remember a 3 man spot s talk show that was aired on Sunday nights in the mid-late 80’s?? Bill Brown, Byron Day, and Todd ??? Can’t remember his last name. He was a tad bit condescending if I remember correctly.
The players made a counteroffer to the owners proposal for a 60 game schedule, but they never formally rejected that proposal. The owners have said that they’ve rejected the players counter offer and that they’re not going to play more than 60 games. So the players are going to do something.
I do not believe that they are limited to just an up or down vote. I think they could make another counter offer.
60 games v 70 games- $250M in salaries
$25M playoff pool vs $50M
$33M advance write off vs some other amount
pct of playoff TV revenue in 2021- players request
grievance or no
More important than the number of games is the ability of the players to file a grievance.
How does several days turn to less than 48 hours?
It’s kind of cute how they think this all still matters.
No, wait, it’s not.
Make no mistake folks, agreement or not, there will be no season. They won’t even get two full weeks of “spring training” in.
At this point I don’t care anymore. I just want them to make a decision in the next 24 hours and stick to it.
Given the spikes in Arizona, Florida, Texas, Georgia and California in infection rates., you have to wonder how wise this is. That’s 11 teams just there. I understand they are big boys and can make their own decisions on how much risk they want to take, but…
But what then? You understand they can make their own decisions then their is not “but”
Heaven forfend that a player thinks it’s too much risk….
There’s no vote today. After all the recent breakouts, players are reconsidering.
twitter.com/BNightengale/status/127478390607656960…
The players and more importantly the agents (see Scott Boras) are realizing that’ because of the virus, they are not going to get all they want in arbitration. The best approach is to agree to cancel the season and agree to work on a new CBA that benefits both sides. It starts with a commitment not to lock the players out of Spring Training.
Okay, so if you’re the players and you see an increasing chance that the season will be canceled. It seems that you might want to lock up an advance, or forgiveness of an advance that you’ve already received.
If you have a career average of 4 years or so, and you’re trying to start season no 1, 2, or 3, you’re probably not all that concerned about the next CBA. You just want to play ball and earn some money while you can.
I’m going to start a bussiness and I’m going to use baseball owners as my model. Here’s my plan.
1. Open a bussiness.
2. Make incredible amounts of money for decades.
3. When I hit hardtimes, I’m going to try and force my staff to fund my losses.
Who wants a job?
Am I making $5 million/year? If so, sign me up
I’ll offer you market rates for pay and that’s all.
Wish you the best, @salcapmyth.
You certainly make it seem pretty easy. I have to say “easy” is not my experience with running a business.
Took my partner & I a decade to grow our company to 8 figures in sales/year.
I hope you realize the effort, resourcefulness, & indeed luck (“when preparation meets opportunity” – Coach Wooden) this entails.
Best wishes, although you may want to tighten up your business “plan” a tad.
😉
Do you know what an analogy is?
Your analogy makes no sense then. No one is asking workers to “fund losses”. And you can’t act as if market value is equal in all situations, whether it’s millions or minimum wage. It’s not.
No vote today: Reasons tweeted by Jeff Passan
Jeff Passan
@JeffPassan
MLB commissioner Rob Manfred sent a letter to MLBPA executive director Tony Clark today offering to cancel expanded playoffs and universal DH for 2021 if a full season isn’t played in 2020, sources tell ESPN. Players are concerned about giving up leverage of playoffs for naught.
Jeff Passan
@JeffPassan
The proposed 2021 olive branch may be the last and best chance MLB and MLBPA have to strike a deal. Players had planned on voting today whether to accept a 60-game season or allow Manfred to impose a season of his desired length, sources tell me and @JesseRogersESPN
.
_____________________________________________
Great news on the first blurb….
I hate we are doing this to 2021 with the playoffs….. I dont care what they do ever tryed to do for this year but leave 21 alone at this point-
I can just see them prematurely entering some deal this season that will inevitably just kill the chances at a fair deal next year. These guys really need time to work this all out corretly, I have supreme doubts
Now they’re saying they won’t vote on Sunday. Both sides are garbage.
No matter what the outcome of this is, it’s going to leave a bad taste in the mouth of people who somehow maintain support for the sport, as well as those who have given up.
The MLB and MLBPA are jointly responsible for whatever fallout there is, and some of that may very well be lack of viewer retention. They are costing themselves money in the long run.
At this rate they’re just a few months away from officially announcing the season is cancelled.
A few months? The season, as originally scheduled, would be ending in three months. If they haven’t come up with a deal by July 1st then the season will be canceled. At that point it will simply be too late unless they plan on playing until Halloween and then having the entire postseason in November.
There is a possibility here that some sarcasm was missed…
Wow, just like all the covid reports on the news from the “experts.” Back and forth, say one thing and then say the opposite, then something else. Vote in a few days, then today, then back to a few days.
Boohoo Manfred/Clark need to go away. They’ve wrecked it for everybody.
Agreed! Both sides need to change their leadership. Those leaning toward one side, need to look at this train wreck again.
@luckyh
Exactly.
Man. Why does everything these days have to be viewed from a single vantage point.
Life is much more like a Cubist painting than any type of cut and dried “either/or”.
Idiots.
What a tease
MLB means nothing to me until they have a salary cap/floor. Make the league balanced for all teams.
This is the end of MLB. It’s time to create a new league called Super League Baseball.
East Division: Atlanta, Boston, Montreal, New York, Orlando, Philadelphia, Raleigh, Washington
Central Division: Chicago, Columbus, Detroit, Indianapolis, Louisville, Memphis, New Orleans, San Antonio
West Division: Denver, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver
Thanks for the laugh
Um, dude. Any new league will still be controlled by human beings. All human beings are controlled by greed. Any new league will succumb to the same greed as the current one.
Wow, that’s quite a fever dream. Thanks for the laugh
With Montreal included that means this wouldn’t be a super league.
Montreal isn’t locked in. Would you prefer the Halifax Hawks instead? How about the Nunavut Ninjas? Or maybe the Saskatchewan Serpents?
Those are some lousy cities to prop up a league.
if there’s no team in Anchorage GTFO
Now they’re reviewing protocols?Take your time boys.
There are more issues than just the games played and the time frame in which to play. Not sure why mlbtr isnt reporting on those things.
Just play two 7 inning games each day…add a couple of players to each roster. This could get the game count up to a reasonable level by October.
Stop it already if they don’t want to play quit, hire some minor-leaguers get something going the greed is just ridiculous.
@cscd
I mean… maybe?
Tell ya. I’ve grown completely fed up with this. Players, owners, writers, fans. Think that covers it.
So much nonsense.
My first comment ever here was mildly “pro” owner. Mostly, I was sharing my experience keeping a company going through all this. Noted how concessions needed to be made by my partner and myself (owners) & our tradesman and sales guys (analogous players).
Comment was nuked. I was sent some reply. Obviously, I ignored it.
But.
About half a dozen comments down someone began a post with “death to anyone who crosses a picket line”* This comment was allowed to stand.
So.
Anyway, Nebraska opens a limited small game season 8/1. On 9/1 Wi has early season teal and Canada goose. That same day MN opens snipe & rail.
Honestly, I don’t need baseball, writers, or fans. I’ve got things to look forward to.
🙂
* does that include the MLB players that were crossing hotel picket lines a couple years ago?
Who would manage these guys. Most MLB managers played in the majors and were part of the union. Aaron Boone’s dad was a union rep in the 1981 strike. Sure his father would be thrilled to have him manage a bunch of scabs. Would the games count? As major league games? Sure FOX would be thrilled showing a scab “World Series “ between the phony Orioles and Marlins. What about the umpires? Are they going to get paid prorated salaries or are they going to try to cut their salaries also? Apparently, the players are willing to play, but they are waiting for Manfred to give the order to play. Then of course they file a grievance, but that could take several years to litigate. In the meantime, baseball would return
That’s about the gist of the MLBPA’s talking points
How are the spring training games going to work if they play in their home parks? Are they just going to play with against each other within their org, by a mix and match of major and minor leaguers?
No spring training games in June or July are allowed, per MLB commissioner decree.
Why does the universal DH favor the owners, per the latest article update?
I could be wrong, but I think the implication is that….even if the players want the DH, it’s something the owners have to bargain for in the CBA and, therefore, it’s a chip for the players to cash in during the next round of negotiations.
Which tells you the level of craniorectal inversion we’re dealing with right now.
@joshbell, ah….makes sense. Thank you
New report: they’re voting today. Newer report: no they’re not.
Yea that one tripped me up.
Might as well wait until next year, there are more important issues like the survival of our country. Besides, the worst financially off during this crisis are the everyday Joe’s like me,not a millionaire, besides, Ytube has some great classic games to watch!
This is beginning to resemble the commercial where the old fisherman has a dollar on the line and says…..ewww, almost had it!!
Or “Missed it by this much.” ( Don Adams)
“Awww you gotta be quicker than that.”
Nightengale is a stooge for the owners
Wouldn’t everybody want longer playoffs? Literally all teams except the Dodgers and Yankees who are all but certain to make the playoffs.
Apparently since the players don’t get paid salary per game for playoffs it’s a “pro owner” thing. The whole thing is idiotic and it’s like they’re finding things to argue about like DH. Like who cares about the F’ing DH with the disaster the league is in right now.
Longer season, shorter season?
Full prorated salaries, or discounted-prorated for more games?
Playing in Arizona, Florida, Texas or home stadiums?
26, 29, 35 players with taxi squad or without?
IT’S ALL FREAKIN’ NONSENSE!
Answer this question first: what if half a team gets quarantined?
Breaking news: there will be no 2020 Major League Baseball season because the Owners and Players could only agree on one thing: THERE’S STILL A CONTAGIOUS VIRUS TO CONTEND WITH!
2020 3 stooges:
Owners
Players
Fans
Biggest Stooges? Baseball Writers!
You guys are just going on like the virus does not exist. Like your president says, stop testing and there will be no confirmed cases.
Yeah, what’s that all aboot
Why in the World would Manfred be sending “letters” to get this done? SMH. Pick up the F’ing phone and discuss it. Did the pony express deliver the letter? So stupid it hurts my head
Why can’t we just admit that there’s a very good chance that no sports are going to happen in the next 6 to 8 months. No matter the negotiations, the schedule strategies, COVID is bigger than the MLB,NFL, NCAA, etc. just call them all off. Restart next spring/summer. Florida just had their biggest one day total for COVID cases a month into their reopening. Why would it be any different elsewhere? COVID is currently stronger than whatever humans desire. Why can’t we get over it?
I say start n the new CBA now. It’s obviously going to take a long time to work that out.
The only thing that will move either side in negotiations are deadlines. They can’t even come to a decision now when they needed to rush. If they’ve got 18 months there’s no way they’d work out a CBA with that much time in between.
You guys f’ed up the Covid 19 thing so badly there will be no pro sports of any kind. Thanks a lot. You are a bunch of brainless idiots. Once you go from Canada to the US, you automatically lose about 50 IQ points. Toronto has still not opened, but our entire country had 300 cases. You impulsive, greedy bastards have cost me my Blue jays for this year!
I hope you can still get Tim Hortons
I wonder what % of the people reading that think you just wished a Canadian version of Lou Gehrig’s on him.
A single good book is worth a season full of sports. A project to better yourself or your situation might help. Some time in nature is a worthy pursuit. Good luck my superior northern friend.
300 cases today.
I am going to sit this season out. No point in a 60 game season if they go with the normal divisions and leagues.
Might have been an opportunity for some original thinking.
Say 5 teams in each division playing 32 games against each other (8 games against each team). Winner moves on to winners round. The 6 winners play 30 games against each other (5 against each team) . The 24 losers play 23 games (1 against each team in losers division)
The top 2 teams in the winners and losers division play 20 games. The winner from the losers division plays the winner of the winners division for the World Series. 7 games
While it may seem strange giving a team in the losers division a shot at the WS we all know baseball is so random that getting off to a slow start in your first 32 games (or not getting off to a great start) is meaningless. Its a way of keeping everyone interested for 62 games though.
Anyways, I am out, enjoy it if you can
Over.. Dead.. This is all smoke and mirrors.. owners and players already know there will be no season. Just putting on this show for fans to make it appear they are trying
As a fan I’m totally sick of it all. Way too many egos people.