Since the Braves are owned by the publicly-traded Liberty Media corporation, they are the only team in baseball required to disclose their finances, providing some insight into how the COVID-19 pandemic impacted business. Liberty Media revealed the particulars on Friday (Tim Tucker of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution has the details), with the Braves accounting for an operating loss of $49MM before depreciation and amortization in 2020. In terms of pure revenues, the club generated $178MM.
As one might expect, these numbers each represent a significant decline from the Braves’ financial picture just one year ago. In 2019, the Braves generated $476MM in revenues and had a $54MM profit (before depreciation and amortization). The Braves also added $115MM in debt thanks to construction costs in and around Truist Park and at their new Spring Training complex, bringing their total debt to $674MM at the end of 2020.
In an interview last October, commissioner Rob Manfred claimed that MLB’s 30 teams were facing a collective operating loss of roughly $2.8 to $3 billion in 2020. Since each club’s financial situation obviously has a lot of individual differences, it’s hard to necessarily extrapolate Atlanta’s losses considering they are just one piece of a 30-team pie. For example, Truist Park is the second-newest ballpark in the league, thus providing the Braves with a fresher revenue source than most other clubs.
As Fangraphs’ Craig Edwards wrote in December, however, the Braves are a pretty decent sample team to act as a barometer for the league as a whole “since Atlanta has a slightly better than average local television deal and ran a slightly higher than average payroll last season.” Edwards estimated the Braves for roughly a $65MM operating loss in 2020, so the team actually bettered his analysis. And given the $54MM profit in 2019, the Braves would still seem to be in the black over the two-year span.
It remains to be seen how the 2021 season will play out from a financial perspective since many teams will have either reduced or zero attendance for at least much of the year. Many on the players’ side (such as MLBPA officials and agents like Scott Boras) have taken the stance that 2020-21 will end up being something of a relatively minor setback to Major League Baseball’s overall financial health, which runs counter to statements made by Manfred and some team owners about the sport’s alleged dire monetary losses. Expect this debate to loom large throughout the season and beyond, as the two sides will face a very tense set of negotiations over a new Collective Bargaining Agreement — the current CBA expires in December.
That bozo in Seattle really ran his mouth at the worst possibly time.
…Or is could be the best possible time…
Regardless, the owners get no sympathy here, half the teams have been drinking around, clearly attendance, or lack of, mean little to owners.
The players have some serious weight to swing around during negotiations, will they employ it?
No one needs your sympathy, but people’s honesty would be a refreshing change.
Jesus, the amount of crying about ‘Cancel Culture’ is insane. Especially from the same crowd who derides ‘snowflakes’ and ‘safe spaces’ and applauds the free market and at-will employment. This thread has zero to do with canceling anything yet you’re still whining about it.
I don’t understand what this has to do with cancer culture. The fact is owners are not acting like people who are making money hand over fist. Either owners are colluding or they are not making money hand over fist.
When they sell the team, most owners will make a fortune. But just because I make thousands of dollars on my hose every year, doesn’t mean I should have to sell it or go into debt to pay for the extra taxes.
I agree. Maybe they thought I was referring to his remarks about the translators/English proficiency. Honestly, I figured that to the MLBTR crowd it would be obvious that I was referring to his service time quips and the upcoming CBA negotiations,.
That’s one magical hose.
I was adding onto to Halo’s comment that “people’s honesty would be a refreshing change.” I was offering one key reason as to why people hold back on being honest.
Calcetines – that’s what she said.
Like most of the time, when “either/or” possible options are given, it’s usually not that simple.
The difference between your house and the farmers you’re talking about but not specifically mentioning is that you don’t get billions annually in farm subsidies, and they do.
when did the farmers show up in this?
Kindly put a cork in it regarding ‘cancel culture’. Apparently, it’s the new buzz phrase for nudniks. (Apologies if you feel canceled.)
You must have an awesome hose.
In other news, the sky is blue.
No, this is news actually. It’s a data point that potentially weakens the already tenuous position of the players union. I’m sure the union will be strategizing how to not let last year’s diminished revenues become part of a more general argument against their claims for more money.
Could be a strike coming soon. Players will want top dollar despite league taking massive losses. Tough reality for players that want the tatis, trout, and betts type deals that definitely won’t be handed out next winter.
Why would those deals not be handed out next winter? Revenue will only get better as things start to open up.
A key issue for the union is earlier free agency and they’re looking for after four years, or at least after five. And this is the issue they’ll strike over.
Why are you assuming people will flock into parks? They’ve found other things to do.
The players will not strike, the owners will lock them out.
Either way, same thing. But regardless of what the owners want, the players won’t play until major concessions are given.
Tatis, Trout, and Betts type players will continue to get paid very well. Betts and Trout are generational talents, and obviously the Padres are taking a calculated risk with Tatis. But all those guys signed big deals because in addition to their talent, they had the potential to be decently young when hitting free agency.
The guys who will be raging mad are the middle of the pack guys and the players who are hitting free agency around age 30, or even well after. The current system really keeps them from earning good $$$ during their prime years.
Best scenario possible.
Players..
“We want to play, the fans want baseball, why won’t owners negotiate in good faith?”
The players have an enormous advantage.
On that front Tony Clark needs to go and the players need to bring in someone with zero baseball experience or connections and lay the hammer down.
All business, all the time.
The one item that players can swing like club all day, everyday.
Players simply have to say that they can’t negotiate when they don’t know what it is they are negotiating without seeing the books.
The owners can say whatever they want about the books, but its just bargaining in bad faith and the players need to exploit that at every level.
And you know what Tony……
I and a hundred million former MLB fans could care less.
I care about the players, owners, agents, and media that have made pro sports into a soap opera as much as those people care about me.
Huh?
Samuel, it would appear that you “couldn’t care less.”
Saying you “could care less,” implies you care plenty about something.
I only point it out as it is one of those idioms that is often stated incorrectly and by doing so, means the exact opposite.
@samual –
That would imply that there are at least 100 million MLB fans to begin with. That alone seems far from certain to me.
@ Ducky Buckin Fent;
LOL
You are correct.
I don’t think it has dawned on people how much COVID and the use of technology have changed America. These are truly historic times. MLB is being affected, and rightfully so.
People were staying at home lookin at their media devices all day and night, yet MLB viewing went down.
You have historians and very bright business analysts that will explain that a crisis such as America and the world have had for over a year brings about massive change in a hurry – i.e. change that would have happened over a period of decades will happen in a year or two. It’s bee that way throught history.
Americans can live without MLB as well as all pro sports. Try explaining to fans under even 50 that from the early to mid 20th century the primary sports were pro baseball, boxing, horse racing, and college football.
Life is habits. Peoples habits change in a crisis. Will MLB die? No. But will it grow? Probably not. And all the long=term contracts are based on projections of continued explosive growth. That’s not going to happen. People have found other things to do with their time.
You don’t care, yet you’re here commenting on a website which goes into the minutiae of a sport you claim to no longer be a fan of.
Philsark94….the reason for the sky being blue is the more interesting piece of information.
This report brought to you by the letters b and a
B and S
so I guess you know their financials and can prove otherwise
They are a media company. The entertainment business invented the accounting games that make even the most successful projects look like money losers. It’s why only a fool asks for a percentage of net profits on a film or TV show. Has Forrest Gump turned a profit yet? If the Paramount and the Redstones can hide profits, so can Liberty and Malone.
And, specking of publicly traded companies, isn’t Rogers Communications, owner of the the Blue Jays, publicly traded?
AKA Hollywood accounting.
no accounting is accounting….media companies cannot hide losses…these numbers are likely audited by a big 4 firm…although the article says this is specific to Braves operations I wouldn’t be surprised if the company as a whole turned a profit
And sorry to clarify “hide losses”….i mean they are not making this up….not sure about Rogers, would think even in Canada they would have to release some info
This is public knowledge. Your opinion doesn’t matter here.
It’s b and s bro. You’re such a sheep
Finally.
This confirms what I think most of us really knew. I know it’s not a fashionable take to side with the owners.
But it was inconceivable to me that teams didn’t actually lose money. Not just profits. How else can you explain the Red’s off-season? That’s a club that clearly lost money.
Actually, it confirms the opposite.
They made a profit during the 60 games played. Unfortunately they still had expenses for the 100 games they didn’t play, Manfred and the lawyers want to be paid no matter what for example, and therefore had a loss. By choosing to play fewer games the owners lost more money to make some sort of statement?!
Without a single dollar from ticket sales they generated 178 million in only 60 games played. That is a pretty good business when you can completely lose one revenue stream and still potentially make a profit
I’m unclear what you are saying.
Yes, they made a net profit of 178 mil. But they lost 49 mil. Key word being “lost”.
I really don’t understand all that stuff about Manfred & lawyers, either. It feels like we are talking about two different articles.
Edit: should be net revenue
Yes, it’s great for a business when they completely lose one revenue stream and make 37% of the revenue they made the previous year.
Yep, it’s not popular to side with the owners. Even though they worked their whole lives to get that rich, it’s just impossible for the majority of people to even conceive being that rich.
Anywho, teams actually had low revenues last season no matter the franchise. That doesn’t mean they can’t sign free agents (as we have seen); it just means that they are restrained more than normal.
It gives the public, union, and owners a real common ground to discuss over without having doubts over what’s true or false because there is concrete proof with the league average (Braves). I hope this is seen as a blessing because it gives both sides something look at… which was formerly a cut-throat issue. Here’s to a successful 2022 CBA…
“Worked”? More like exploited workers and inadequate regulation of anticompetitive business conduct.
Oh no!
The Das Kapital guys are here.
I thought you were down with the proletariat.
Are you kidding?
Man, I’ve built a pretty comfortable lifestyle off of the broken & bleeding backs of the working class.
Hal Steinbrenner is a perfect example of this.
He started off selling apples on the street corner when he was a kid. Bought his first apple for a nickel. Sold it for a quarter. Took that quarter & bought five apples that he sold for a dollar.
Then he inherited the New York Yankees & became a smashing financial success.
Heh.
Anyway, how are you Rangers29? Still throwing?
Yeah Ducky. I posted on the Kim thread the other day, and I can talk over there.
I wouldn’t be surprised if theres like five owners tops who are self made…and that’s probably on the high side.
Agreed JD. Most of them probably inherited it all, like George’s kids.
The one item that players can swing like club all day, everyday.
Players simply have to say that they can’ negotiate when they don’t know what it is they are negotiating without seeing the books.
The owners can say whatever they want about the books, but its just bargaining in bad faith and the players need to exploit that at every level.
I’ve worked really hard my whole life and haven’t gotten rich, I did end up injured and homeless. You can say someone earned something, I think they just didn’t end up bankrupt while spinning the wheel of fortune. Great thing about capitalism, and the federal reserve act is bankruptcy is built into it. No matter what someone always ends up the loser in the musical chairs game. It doesn’t matter til its a pandemic and its you.
They’re probably depreciating $25-30M per year so on a cash flow basis, we’re talking a loss of maybe $20-25M. I’m not sure if that includes any shenanigans with any sort of sports channel they might own or not, I don’t know. Not too bad at all as business will lose money from time to time.
i mean that’s true, but its pretty rare with pro sports teams
The Braves are public so their accounting has to actually be legitimate and pass auditor scrutiny. They can’t play the same accounting games that the other teams can and probably do play.
But what you’re not picking up is that if let’s say Liberty Media owns the Braves regional sports rights and are collecting $40M (all hypothetical as I do not know) then that $40M is pretty much all because of the Braves but it’s not, nor does it have to be, counted on the Brave’s books.
It’s like the Steinbrenners legitimately losing $20-40M per year most years but if they own a piece of YES (not sure how much) and collect $50-80M from their stake (once again all hypothetical), then it’s a bit disingenuous to say that the Yankees are :”losing money” even if they can technically declare that to be true. This by the way would fly with any public accounting standards.
Liberty Media does not own any percentage of the regional sports channel. Fangraphs has the Braves with an estimated $86 MM a year from local media revenue, 8th most in MLB.
It’s not a Braves’ specific issue though. There is a overlap on certain teams between ownership in teams and regional sports channels.
For public reporting companies, and for the IRS, intercompany transactions have to be measured as an arms-length transaction. If you own both the team and the TV network, and the results are consolidated, no one cares.
But if I own a baked goods company, and you owned a flour company, with other partners, I can’t make a sweetheart with you, or else it cheats your partners. Likewise, you can’t sell flour to me at a loss, then show the IRS a tax return showing a loss. They will simply gross your transactions with me.
There are limits to what you can do with a set of books.
I think the issue is more akin to if you owned a baked goods company AND you owned a flour company. The money that is spent by the baked goods company for flour is just moving money from the left pocket to the right pocket.
In theory, a team could be receiving less in rights fees from a channel owned by the team (or more specifically, the same ownership group) to make the profit of the team less and the profit of the TV channel more. I’m just guessing, but I think the employees of a TV channel would complain less about the profit the company is making and not spending on them than baseball players do.
“accounting for an operating loss of $49MM before depreciation and amortization in 2020. “
Everything lost money last year. Only thing that didn’t lose money were the banks who lend the stuff from thin air like magic only that magic is created from 10% of every loan. And that 10% creates 10 more loans to loan 10% from then you end up with a M1 money stock like we’ve been seeing.
But don’t worry the banks are to big to fail, the bigger they are the harder they fall, just ask Gronk
Basically lending is the only way to keep the debt in check. Its now so large that you have to keep printing money to keep money moving
“So one man can gamble millions of dollars in hedge funds on the housing market and if it should collapse it will act as a trillion dollar black hole, I mean were talking more money than the entire US economy operates on in an entire year and the Chairman Mr Greenspan wants to let one man gamble it on the housing market.” The real reason we are screwed -Bernie Sanders 2000
No surprise. Businesses across the country were hit hard by the pandemic. Many won’t recover. MLB? A blip. They have the resources to handle a one year reduction, and they of course should always plan for unexpected events. They’ll try to use that as a way to suppress salaries longer term, reduce and eliminate scouts, etc., while still increasing prices on fans. While I’m not looking forward to a strike, I certainly will support the players if they go that route.
So clubs plan for plandemics? No, not at all. I’m sure literally no one ever expected a season with no fans.
No. Sparky. That’s not what I said. They plan and react to business downturns, both small and catastrophic. A pandemic certainly was not on their agenda. My point is that MLB players who had guaranteed contracts gave back a percentage of their salaries, which is money they will never get back. MLB teams and the league can play the long game. Their businesses will return to normal. The players will never get that money back because their careers are short.
The players got paid exactly what they would get for the portion of the season that was actually played. Same thing happens when the players strike.
The players didn’t “give back” anything. MLB played 37% of the season. The players got 37% of their contracts. Do you think they should have been paid for games that weren’t played?
Come on now, do teams even care if fans are there or not?
How many teams have tanked?
How has that affected attendance and how much money have owners gladly given up?
Tony Carbone1 hour ago
Come on now, do teams even care if fans are there or not?
====================================================
Of course they don’t care if there are fans there. Nor do they care about TV and radio revenues. And they absolutely loathe merchandising.
Seriously, every team wants fans there. It is the only way to make money. Some are poorly run. Some recognize that their small markets require a constant rebuilding or cycling thru good and periods.
But they all want more fans.
Seems a tad cynical don’t ya think?
Make no mistake about it, what we just saw, that was the money changers striking again. Call me crazy but uh V for Vendetta and the Rothschild plot just came true. There is a definite agenda being pushed by the elite of the world to completely diminish the middle class. I don’t like the looks of it, seems to be working.
Absolutely correct, Hippy. Then they create all these issues like racism and LGBTQ in order to divide the people. They want black against white, gay against straight, etc. Anything to divide the little people so that they won’t notice the real cause of their problems: the Elites themselves.
Servicing $600M+ of debt as rates rise rapidly should be fun.
Lol its not an adjustable rate like a bad home loan. Corporate bonds can go out 100 years for some of the largest companies like Enbridge. Both AT&T and Verizon have 100 Billion (thats with a B) in long term debt. 600M is chump change, and according to the article, 10x debt to EBITDA isnt bad considering they have a new stadium.
Huh 100 billion debt with a b, no wonder AT&T laid off over 50,000 employees and had them train their green card having replacements. American corporations can’t even afford to pay Americans?
I love the people that kick and scream saying the owners should just keep pouring more money into teams after losing tens of millions last year.
That is definitely not how those wealthy people got where they are today. This is not just a hobby for them, it’s an investment. They need to recoup their losses and to do so, they have to cut numbers this year and likely next year.
But you’ll get people that say “They are rich, get over it.” And that’s why those people saying it will never understand money.
if said people were rich they would be acting the same way most likely. now if its another rich person saying these things then fair enough.
And no one does that more than the writers on this site. As a business person, that’s the biggest annoyance I have with the site. These guys know baseball but have no understanding of business.
Jeff Todd certainly had a take that was player-favored, but I haven’t seen him on here in a while. Otherwise, the rest of the staff seem fairly even-keeled.
No.
MLBTR has sided with players and against owners and management in every single issue since I started reading it on-and-off 5=7 years ago.
If a player complains it’s fine, he’s being discriminated against. If a management wants a level playing field then they’re being oppressive.
yeah I think it just tends to come off as anti-owner when you hear guys like DeWitt or the Mariners GM say thr stuff they say. i dont think there is any intent there
From what I understand it means firing someone who’s due 3,000 dollars commission cause you can save over 2,500 that way and you wanna keep your BMW, nevermind if that person has a wife and kids to feed and if they might end up leaving because of it. that’s what it means to run a business here in America.
Owners don’t care about you or your kids, They just care about their bottom line
Agreed.
Most teams basically set their budget to break even with projected revenue over a 162-game schedule with the goal of profiting in the post-season.
I’m never going to feel sympathy for any owner who whines about losing money on a one off year in a billion dollar industry, while costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollar every couple decades to build a new ballpark. They can’t alternate between crying poor because they own a team while reaping the rewards because of it.
I’m not saying they have to burn money, just stop lying to us fans. The industry of baseball really makes it hard to be a fan and is killing the game in my opinion.
Seattle Mariners.
Attendance was down by 500,000 in 2019.
How concerned were they about money then, it was a direct result and effort of ownership to create the situation..
No one else.
And yet player expenses in 2019 for Seattle was the same $174 MM that it was in 2018, and the highest in the decade. And 2020 was going to be $163 MM.
Wow. That’s Marlin level payroll slashing there.
Perhaps you should visit Cot’s Contracts before spouting such numbers. Going by Lux Tax payroll which adds the full 40 man and player benefits (though van vary a bit from actual cash paid, but not to the degree you’re suggesting) you get the following :
2018 $171.0 Million
2019 $152.5
2020 (before prorate) $112.8
Maybe not “Marlin level payroll slashing” but certainly a significant cut.
I went by the Forbes estimates of team values that’s published every year. That figure is for “player expenses” so it includes expenses for players that would NOT be included in the Lux Tax payroll.
The 2020 amount they list would have been pre-pandemic.
Before 2019, the Mariners traded FOR Edwin Encarnacion and Jay Bruce. If you think the Mariners were tanking, you’re a pinhead..
Owners have had so many free rides, one year of lost revenue shouldn’t break them. Taxpayers pay partially for their big stadiums, which the owner fully profits from when he sells the team. Some of them pocket the revenue sharing. Then they had the audacity to ask the players to eat some of last season’s revenue loss because they were “partners” now, when they keep those books locked tight and surely never share when revenue exceeds expectations.
Zero sympathy for the owners here. No one forced them to buy a baseball team.
Good thing they got acuna and albies locked up with those highway robbery extensions. Freddie’s turn now.
The cool thing is they’re also the only team you can own a piece of. Ticker is BATRA.
Trade acuna to save money
On bright side Acuna and Ozzie saving Liberty Media easily two hundred plus millions on there peanut contract.
It should be noted that Truist will host the All-Star Game this year, if there is one, that could provide either a slight boon…and/or another lost opportunity to generate revenue.
All the sheep here, believing this. Come on people, get a grip.
But the SEC would come down on them if they reported inaccurate financials. /s
No matter what the data shows you’ll never believe it. What a shocker. Disney had to sell the Angels because they couldn’t take the losses on their book, and when they sold the team, they took about 1o0 million less than what they put in.
If baseball was so profitable, Disney would have never sold the Angels.
If owning a baseball team wasn’t profitable, why would people/corporations continue buying them at higher and higher prices?
It’s amazing how much people believe this. Get off the owner’s D.
It’s amazing that you’re so dense that you don’t realize that these are the real numbers because they’re a public entity. Go, learn things.
The trouble with this “blip” stuff is that it assumes that fans only stayed away for the parks because of COVID, and will come back to the sport. The downturn in viewing on media devices is being ignored (with more time free one would think ratings would have swelled).
Bringing politics into MLB is an issue no one writing / discussing want to acknowledge. As if it doesn’t exist. Whether it be social issues or owner/management vs. players union/agents – people that have been financially devastated and had their careers, schooling, businesses, and relationships put on hold for going on 2 years don’t want to be bothered with average players forever complaining about making only tens of millions of dollars a year and being “disrespected”.
Due to technology there are numerous ways for people to both entertain themselves and even participate in. Example – Electronic games, Cryptocurrencies, and the Stock Market. Why bet on games or play rotisserie league over what others are playing, when one can participate in on-line games; or learn business strategies and technologies, put some money on what they believe in, and not only enjoy the competition, but potentially prosper financially if they make good decisions? Put it another way…..
Ask young people if they look up to more – a sports figure or Elon Musk. I’ve spoken to dozens of Millennials. People like Musk offer them a future. Pro sports just takes from them and makes demands on them…..and even boomers are now participating.
Robinhood and Coinbase are booming. Not pro sports.
Much of the “investing” happening today is just speculation/gambling. I wouldn’t hold out that the trend will continue indefinitely. A fool and their money… and the house always wins.
Who is the house?
You think putting down money on organizations working to provide and roll out products that people around the world will pay for as it makes their life better is “gambling”?
LOL
Tesla, 1000 P/E ratio…. yes thats a gamble.
Tesla has made me a lot of money, and not only won’t sell a share, I’ve been buying more in this correction.
Learn about the demand for electric cars and autonomous driving that is happening all over the world. Learn what robo taxi’s are. Learn about the other businesses Tesla is in other then cars. And learn that Tesla sells every car it makes with no advertising. Want to buy one of their cars? There’s a waiting list – one guy I know recently got his – waited almost 2 years. Their gigantic Gigafactories (which produce more than cars) are still being built in Austin, Beijing, and Berlin, although they do get enough constructed to get some cars out within a year…….a timeframe that no company in the world has come close to matching. With more plants to follow (England and a few Asian countries are wooing them to build plants there). Their manufacturing processes as well as their cars are a minimum of 4-5 years ahead of any other electric car manufacturer in the world, and they are innovating faster then anyone else putting even more distance between competitors. A recent study of the top 5% of students in the top Engineering colleges in America showed that over 95% of recent graduates want to work for Tesla or other Elon Musk companies rather then anywhere else in the world.
Tesla today is where Amazon was in 1999-2000, when no one understood the outrageous valuation of a company that just sold books on the Internet. Check their price since then…..and be sure to factor in the multiple stock splits.
For sure Tesla will be the largest company in the world by 2030, and very probably before that – possibly as soon as 2025.
Clue #1 – Tesla is not a car company, they are a technology company.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. There is a reason P/E ratios are used. They matter. There is plenty of money to be made on the supply chain to Tesla, like Albemarle (in at 70 out at 160). Overall Tesla is derisking the EV market but a P/E ratio of 1000 means they have to double earnings 5 times over just to get to 30 and that wont happen for decades.
Irony is, even without loss, they would still not explore free agents or try to win anything beyond a useless division title.
So they didn’t just hand out 90 mil in guaranteed contracts for 3 players? You continue to say the dumbest things. It’s ok to say something smart sometimes.
1. I don’t believe it
2. Don’t care if the owners have losses
It’s public record your belief isn’t needed. You’re a narcissist. We get you’re jealous of “rich” people because you have so little. Think if you spent as much time turning yourself into a commodity as you do worrying about what others have. Hint you’d actually be successful
a skeptic/nihilist would have been a better blind assessment from a stranger, but you seem to have everything figured out bud – good for you. not sure why you care if owners have losses.
Why should anyone want someone else.to lose money? Especially because of a plandemic? Keep hating the rich people that supply jobs for the rest of us.
Plandemic is right.
who said anyone wanted anyone to lose any money? i missed that part, point me to it. if you really want to shift the focus to the little guys at the bottom of the totem pole not making enough money, fine. even when the league was setting record earnings, how well were the little guys fairing then? there are many things that should be the focus of building a better economy that “trickles down” to everyone, but a strong robust entertainment industry should be pretty much at the bottom of the list. distractions are nice and fun and all of that, but spending billions upon billions of dollars on entertainment while some people don’t have enough money to eat is pretty sickening if you sit down and really think about it. the people who have the money and power to change things don’t. you should redirect your anger to them.
@twinsfan333… $ does not equate to success. people are not commodities. that is a pretty messed up view of life.
It’s reasonable to assume that the big boys made less money in 2020, but the smaller teams actually lost real dollars. Teams like Tampa and Pittsburgh live and die with Central Fund money and Revenue Sharing. The first was decreased (though ameliorated somewhat by the extra playoffs) , and the second was eliminated. If those teams had to live purely on their own generated income, they’d lock the door.
And pleeeeaaase! let’s remember, as we look at these numbers, that revenue does not equal profit. Buy a hot dog at the Trop, the Rays pick up a pittance; buy one at Fenway, the Sox get a big chunk. The Rays pay rent at the Trop; the Sox receive depreciation for Fenway. Revenue numbers are not apples for apples.
Haven’t seen you in a while Bob……
When have you known sports journalists and most sports fans to have any idea about financial realities?
To them Gross Revenue = Net Profit.
The owners are taking in more revenue. Therefore they should give the same percentage to the players. Forget that they now invest in clubhouses built for the top 1% (which at least 95% of MLB players and their agents are), provide endless coaches, computer devices, professional psychological consoling; and scour the world with scouts and baseball academy’s to train prospects., then subsidize minor league teams to prepare players for MLB…..and that’s to start.
As for your points – for so many people screaming “INEQUALITY”, they seem to ignore that Pittsburg’s team can’t possibly compete with Chicago’s financially – primarily due to cable TV revenues….although you bring up a great point about merchandise sold at parks.
SOS
Teams keep 52% of their local revenues, The other 48% goes into the revenue sharing pool, which is then divided equally between the 30 teams.
The larger local media revenue is an advantage, but not as huge as most believe. Pittsburgh getting $44 MM compared to Milwaukee getting $28 MM doesn’t seem to be giving them an advantage there.
@ pdxbrewcrew;
I’ve been watching this stuff for a lot of decades…..
The large market teams have a decided advantage over lower-mid and small market teams. It is not a small advantage. Fans in Cleveland just watched their best player (and a quality pitcher) get traded to a large market team for a below average SS, a utility INF, and 2 low level prospects, because they had no way of paying those 2 players salaries. Examples like this happen all the time, and they wouldn’t be happening if the disparity in revenues was only fractionally different.
The issue here is not owners vs. players. It’s the fact that fans in lower-mid and small market cities know the playing field is not level, and that they’re being treated as 2nd class fans because of where they live.
Unless MLB equally shares all cable and other revenues equally between teams, then this will continue. Having watched for a long time, I see no reason it won’t continue. Please do not tell me that the Mets and Indians are only 4% apart in revenue.
LOL
Fangraphs has a good article with estimates for the local media revenue. Let’s make some comparisons. The numbers are for what the teams would have received for a full 2020.
They have Cleveland with $47 MM a year in local media revenue, 22nd in MLB. The Indians also don’t own any percent of their sports channel, so we’ll compare them to a similar team, the Astros. Houston is 11th in local media revenue, with $70 MM. With just under half going to revenue sharing, Houston only has about $13-$14 MM more to spend. And that’s before revenue sharing is distributed. Cleveland would net more than Houston does, which would lower that amount.
The list is very top heavy. But once you get past the top half dozen, there isn’t a dramatic difference between the teams.
Why should the Dodgers share their income with the KC Royals?
Because baseball, unlike many industries, is both a competitive enterprise and a cooperative enterprise. Or do you want the Dodgers to play 162 games against the Padres?
Please stop this rant line – the article is very clear on the difference between revenue and operating income.
The point is the public positioning. MLB claims $2..5 to $3 Billion in operating losses, but the only actual example of public books shows a loss of under $50 million – in operating income, the exact metric Manfred claimed. Multiply that by 30 we’re halfway to the high side.
That said, the canceling of revenue sharing did likely have a disproportionate effect on about 1/2 the clubs, and Atlanta likely was a beneficiary of that policy to some degree (they don’t get revenue sharing). That is perhaps the main financial data point that isn’t broken out here and might suggest some teams had larger losses – also possible some had less. Who knows – except their accountants.
And Disney didn’t sell the Angels because it was a bad investment. They had other business issues and decided sports teams didn’t fit. They sold the team for $33 million more than they paid – a %22.5 % gain in 5 years. They did put nearly $100 mil into the Anaheim Stadium refurb so just based on those 2 factors t. hey did have a losing proposition. Maybe naming their hockey club after a mediocre movie tells you something about their sports management approach.
We can also look at the estimates Forbes publishes. They estimated that in 2019, MLB teams took in $10.374 Billion in revenue. The Braves, according to the numbers presented in the article, in 2020 received 37% of the revenue they got in 2019. Applying that 37% to all the teams means the teams combined for about a $6.5 Billion loss in revenue.
What they didn’t mention is that 178 million isn’t all from the baseball team. The Battery, the area around the stadium, is also included in the baseball revenue. They get revenue from various lease agreements, outright sales, etc. So, the actual baseball team almost certainly had a greater operating loss than what was reported.
I’ve been searching through my seat cushions for bitcoins…
Look, no one denies that John Henry, who paid 750M for the Sox, is entitled to a better return than Steinberg, who paid 250M for the Rays. There’s a certain fairness about that. And let’s remember how many “experts” (including George Stienbrenner) thought Henry was nuts (“bad ballpark, lousy TV, old roster”). They just didn’t see what the Sox could be, just what they were.
I just detest when the ownerships of certain teams cry poverty, and go into these “tanking” modes. That’s just utter horse-bleep. And the bigger sacrilege is when well-off teams (Detroit, SF, etc.) go into these endless rebuilds. Ya, they’re getting better; for God’s sake, they SHOULD be better; they SHOULD have been better 2 years ago.
The metrics for judging the Red Sox/ Cubs/Dodgers are different than those you use for evaluating the Royals/Rays/Pirates. There’s simply no excuse, other than incompetency, for big market teams not to be competitive EVERY year.
And you have to flip it around a bit. The issue isn’t that the Sox et al can afford a 225M payroll; they can afford a 325M payroll, maybe more. At the same time, any MLB team that doesn’t spend 100M is gauging its fan base. See how good the Rays are? Nothing wrong about celebrating that. Now think how good they would be if they brought their payroll up to 100M.
Why should they do that? Maybe increase the brand-value of the team, and save baseball in Tampa? Isn’t that enough? Yes, the Rays have increased in value 4X since Stuie bought them; but he had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.; everybody went up 4X, except teams that built their brand by at least looking like they’re trying to stay competitive. They went up more.
THAT’S what’s killing (among other things) the sport; half the teams don’t even try.
I admire what they’re doing in KC, even if I question some of the moves. At least they’re trying.
Get your Bitcoins out, Bob! They should be worth $100k apiece by the end of 2021. Watch.
–
Small market owners crying poverty? Please…..
Arbitration plus the players union assures a players salary be at a certain level via statistical comparisons. As Charlie Finley noted – he could not pay his A’s players what the Yankee’s were paying comparable players. For decades now lower-mid and small market teams have morphed into this cycle…..
Do a 4-6 year rebuild to get a core of young players you can control financially for a contending window period. This is done by drafting and trading existing veterans for prospects. Naturally, your fan attendance and the TV viewing in your market will suffer so revenues will be poor for that period of time. As the young players ascend to the majors and the team begins to become competitive, spend money on some veterans in free agency to put around them and fill holes. From there attendance and viewing will improve, and cash flow will offset the added salaries. You can compete for 2-3 years.
Most of those rebuilds don’t pan out.
At that point the young players evolving salary demands begin to offset any increased revenues. Inevitably teams sign a few more major free agents to long-term contracts, as they make one last push for a WS appearance. Most fail of course, and the team then has to trade their better and higher paid players to large market teams for peanuts just to get out from under the contracts.
Now large market teams like your Red Sox have been prospering since free agency started by picking up the established, expensive stars for little in return. The large market teams like the system as it provides them a steady flow of quality players….albeit that they are often overpaid. The players union likes it because it continuously pushes up the salaries for all players….which keeps the cycle going as the smaller revenue teams cannot afford to keep their highly paid players……who in turn are complaining that the awful, cheap, greedy ownership will not surround them with highly paid teammates to assure the team wins.
Your stance that a small or mid-market team can strip down, rebuild and be competitive for a WS run in 2-3 years is absurd. Name me one small or mid-market team that has done that in the 40-plus years since free agency came about. Furthermore, fans of those teams could care less about fighting for 2nd or 3rd place in their division for the next 10-15 years, which is what you are demanding lower revenue teams do.
As for the finances – franchises ARE losing money. The owners prosper because their franchises are going up in value at exponential rates. So with low interest rates they are forever refinancing their franchises, and living off of the proceeds. It’s a great business! You have a billion dollar asset that’s going up 10-30% every few years. You refinance at minimal interest rates – which you write off your taxes – and live the highlife with your family while making minimal debt payments. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
The cycle ends when the customers begin to go elsewhere. Slowly the bubble begins to burst.
P.S. I’m a tech guy, bob. And tech is turning everything in this world upside down. It’s only begun.
“Name me one small or mid-market team that has done that”
World Series run or playoff run? Because if it’s being in contention, stripping down for 2 years, then being back in contention, I’ll put the Brewers out there. Even after Prince left after 2011, they were still spending the money to put together competitive teams through 2014. They signed Matt Garza and K-Rod before that season. In 2015, they traded away Aramis Ramirez, Mike Fiers, Carlos Gomez and Gerardo Parra at the trade deadline and lost 93 games that season (89 losses in 2016). 2017? 86 wins. 2018 was the start of the current three-year playoff run.
Complete teardown at trade deadline of 2015. Back in contention in 2017, and winning the division in 2018, with playoff appearances the following two seasons.
It can be done. It’s just simply the margin for error gets narrower the lower down the revenue list the team is.
Exactly. I’d put the Cleveland What-evers in that same category. Is it hard to do? Unquestionably. Do REALLY hard choices have to be made? Undoubtedly. .But it can be done.
Monies lost during a rebuild can never be recouped; they’re as much a sunk cost as Chris Davis’ contract. Just because you project that you won’t make any money this year because you’re lousy shouldn’t mean you don’t try to limit your losses.
And ultimately franchise value matters, precisely because it generates borrow-able possibilities. Especially these (diminishing) days of low interest rates.
And I’m not convinced that fans don’t want their teams to be fighting for 2nd or 3rd place. Baseball’s a very accidental game; the difference between 1st and 2nd place is often luck.
Smaller teams have money, they just refuse to spend it. They’re small by choice.
One data point. The other 29 will not be revealed publicly. But the loss could be worse for 2021 for many teams. They will get a full season of TV revenues, both national and local. But they will also play players for that period of time as well. And most teams will be at best having a fraction of their normal attendance. Even in states that have tended to be more open, it is highly unlikely sports stadiums will be allowed to be at full capacity through this baseball season. Take the Braves losses and extend that to a full season and you get around $132M loss. Fans in the stands will help offset that, but it is still more than likely they will lose close to $80- 100M. And the owners will not have an expanded playoff this year to help cut losses.
So if you believe MLB about the level of losses from this past year, expect a bigger number offered up next year regarding 2021 losses. And there is always reason to doubt MLB’s numbers despite what is publicly available from the Braves. MLB will use this to try to leverage the players into a whole lot of concessions that they likely will not agree. Sets up a contentious CBA negotiations and a real threat that the 2022 season does not start on time.
The ownership of Pro Sports Teams in this day and age is a “hobby”, toy, play thing, diversion, networking opportunity for these billionaire Fat Cat owners. Losses in the financial performance by Pro Sports Businesses are merely offset for tax purposes against the massive profits generated by their other businesses.
Who’s your team, Wigs? How many games you going to this season?
The numbers seem to show that in a typical year MLB player salaries tend to equal about 40% of revenue. That’s down from when things were far tougher for the owners back in the ’90’s.
So look at the revenue and payroll numbers after players were prorated in 2020 – and I’ll add the full annual estimate for benefits and the balance of the 40 man roster. ($17.25 mil) Prorated payroll for the Braves was $57.7 mil. Add the benefits / 40 man piece and call it $75 mil. Revenues were $178 mil. Payroll was then 42 % of that. Revenues according to the figures above were down to 37.4 %.
Now there are other expenses teams ran, some generously so to keep staff members paid. so there are other sources of loss possible here. But the players seem to have taken a somewhat fair share of the hit
I’ll absolutely believe that MLB teams lost money last year. How much is anyone’s guess, because no one is really going to get an inside look at how the Braves conducted their accounting, revenue realizing, and expense process. Nor is it necessarily a guide to what other teams did. Responding to those who (with apparent glee) seem to thing the players should pay for this….2020 wasn’t a normal year, and while their bargaining position is probably not as strong as it could be, they aren’t going to agree to a new CBA that assumes future years will be like 2020.
They brought in $178 mil in revenue in a year salaries were drastically cut. Yes, they operating in the negative, but that number is actually quite amazing when you really think about how bad it could have been. That’s merely a small blimp. And I assure you, once baseball is back to its norm, fans are gonna crave to go to the games and ticket prices will be so insane, that revenue will blow the last record out of the water… the Battery will be bumping and money will be flowing….
And the AA/Liberty still won’t spend or make the necessary moves to win a champ….
They just spent 90 mil guaranteed on 3 contracts. They didn’t need to spend a ton considering they were one game away from the WS. Health was the main thing they needed and they got it.
All teams will report record losses for last season but none will report the record profits they’ve been making for well over the past decade. It seems forgotten that the owner’s bean counters all seemed to agree that they could handle “acceptable losses” for the 60 game season and is why they agreed to it. This is all part of the stage setting for the forthcoming “winter of discontent” that will likely hit MLB when the CBA expires after this season
It seems many commenting here seem to think the owners should just take a hit and keep spending like revenue is the same as in 2019 and before. Are people really this stupid these days?
People don’t seem to understand economics. Look at all the support for Bernie.
Yeah look at what people want the goverment to do, M1 money supply doubled in the last year.
This information should put into perspective that contrary to popular belief, these teams aren’t so much cash cows and main centerpieces of the owners portfolios. Yes, the owners are billionaires, but they were before they bought the teams. It’s more of an “I wanna own a baseball team” thing than a “hey we can make so much money with this team” thing. It’s more akin to restoring old cars to resell on the weekends as a side business that’s more of a passion project.
Look at their pre pandemic year profit. 54 million. That’s less than a lot of teams starting outfields cost. How much are trout, Betts, and even pujols pulling in? Almost as much as the team profits. But the owners take all the risk investing in the team. Running a business as an owner is a bigger risk (see: 2020) and creates jobs, so maybe we need to stop hating the owners and realize just because they’re rich doesn’t mean they’re Scrooge Mcduck
Except the ricketts. Those guys are terrible.
Makes ya kinda appreciate the old Steinbrenner’s who put winning above extra profits (despite catching flak for buying all the good players…he was giving his fans their money’s worth. That’s commendable given what teams like Cincinnati and the Cubs are doing)
Except owning a baseball team is a hobby and/or a luxury. It’d be like one of us buying a expensive model plane and wrecking it. We didn’t need the plane. It was something we bought for fun. We don’t get to write any of that off on our taxes, either.
Your argument is precisely why I don’t feel sympathy for the owners. If you told me some owner couldn’t feed their family because of the losses, entirely different. As you said though, these teams aren’t the center of their portfolio. For years and years look what they’ve raked in though.
Players may make a lot of money, but they put in a lot of work, too.
Owners put in a lot of work in owning the team too.
And I think you missed my point. The centerpiece of the portfolio point was that these teams aren’t the cash cows people think they are. Without the big TV deals, it wouldn’t be sustainable.
While I am 100% on board with the idea that people are absolute fools to think it nothing for the owners to suffer losses in the tens of millions year over year; I DO understand WHY journalists generally take up the cause of the player over that of the owner(s): most story jockeys will never gain much in the way of access or a scoop by way of the ownership. Their bread is buttered in the day to day and that means maintaining relationships with the players. Especially considering they’re bound to butt heads or have to write up something negative on someone in a slump or some rookie caught partying and having it show up in their numbers, whatever the case may be. Better to have that base of being a supporter when it was a subject as vital to the players as the nature of their compensation lol.
Don’t forget that covid victims & baseball fans share a demographic profile. Meaning that there’s a large group of fans that cannot come back, and another cohort that will not come back to live games because they literally fear for their lives.
You’re assuming the death reports are in fact correct though. If covid killed so many people, why were the death totals in America over the last 15 months basically a mirror image from the previous yrs? Something doesn’t add up. You’re also not taking into account the number of people who are gonna say screw it, I’ve just lost a yr of my life for no reason and I’m gonna go out and enjoy to the fullest.
The US had the largest single year drop in life expectancy since World War 2 in 2020.
Lots of people got shot and bombed in World War 2.
What happened last year?
For whom, so we’re told.
Perhaps those people need psychological help. I’m not being a wise guy, either.
It seems a pretty large number of people are now experiencing…is it xenophobia? Fear of going outside, or whatever? I was amazed to learn that there are a whole lot of folks that are happily not leaving there domiciles.
We went through a pandemic. It was a pretty big deal, man. But the time is now upon everyone – not just those of us in essential industries that have worked the entire time – to get back to work & try to get our country back together.
So I think get some counseling or get busy. Ya know? I’d hate to think some folks are just gaming everyone by feigning fright.
@ Ducky Buckin Fent;
You’re missing it……
People ARE going back to work. They’re doing it from home.
You think Crypto is some sort of hula hoop phase? A passing-fancy ponzi scheme?
The currency is just one element. It’s about NETWORK’S being developed that people can do business on worldwide. Project teams have been coding for years to bring this about – at what will be a reasonable cost to users. Existing businesses can move their applications on them. People can open up businesses from home at little cost. Financial services and Insurance are only the first applications to be moved there – notice that banks around America have been closing branches….people working in them know what’s happening. People can pay for products from a smartphone, and don’t even need to use US Dollars to do it.
This is why I’ve been writing that the idea that MLB just suffered a “blip” and is going to pick up where it left off is nonsense. MLB should have stuck to playing and left the preaching, complaining, and politics out. They alienated too many people that don’t want to be bothered with kvetching, virtue signaling multi-millionaires and billionaires (and the billionaires include many players and agents).
In closing – it’s actually silly what MLB has turned into. This article and the comments below it is ludicrous. It’s bad enough that one has to read comments about this or that player being good or bad because of 2-3 statistics out of 4 dozen, but now people that know absolutely nothing about basic accounting methods are dissecting public financial statements.
LOL
I don’t know about all that.
But I had a friend that made me put a couple hundred bucks into Bitcoin in 2010. It’s one of the three investments I’ve ever made on my own lol. & the only one that showed a profit.
Which…apparently it has. & quite a healthy one at that. What’s crazy is even though I’ve tried to figure out what exactly it is, I still am left with nothing more than vague notions lol.
So.
The old story of: just another dumb dude that lucked out.
And yet, they didn’t fold the team.
And it’s worth more than ever.
And no one at Liberty Media has missed a meal.
But, boo hoo…40 years of trickle down have people on their knees waiting for their worms like baby birds.
If you don’t understand that the collective damage of shutting down the sport and it’s effect on future revenue and viability of sport would have far exceeded these relatively meager losses, so be it…
The owners understand it.
And they…appreciate your support and sympathy. With a smirk.
You are pretty cavalier about losses in the tens of millions of dollars.
I feel like that by now, I can pick out posters that probably haven’t ever had any real money by their posts.
Ya know?
Lol, cavalier is certainly something with which you find yourself quite familiar. As for whether or not you speak with any accuracy with your implications toward myself and personal finances, I’ll instead pose some fun inquiries: trusting you, in all your fiscal brilliance, have long since paid off your CashValue Life Policy as a 20 pay become more of a 13-14 with the Dividend and Insurance Buy Ups, beyond the Annual Gift Tax Exemption, what other ways are you preserving your estate forward amount ensuring your loved ones don’t get taxed into oblivion when your generationally significant wealth falls into their hands? Equity Dividends are for kids. What Income Replacement Vehicles are You Positioned in RIGHT NOW to ensure ROTH Contributions and bypassing of any RMD’s well into your 80’s/90’s? Are they earning between 13-22%? If not, why? Are they tax advantaged? No? Odd…
My point being, you don’t know what you’re talking about or with whom you’re speaking. My thought that people shouldn’t burn tens of millions of other people’s money (ownership) with little more than a shoulder shrug was based on loss totals given in not only the article, but in the Braves Liberty Media ProxyVote Materials, but yeah, because you post on here 20x a day we should all bend at bend at the knee. Please.
COVID NOTE (All Figures USA per CDC)
Solo COVID Involved Deaths- ~513,000
COVID + Disease – ~ 680,000
COVID Cases = ~28.6 M
Meaning Death Rate Solo C19 = ~1.79%
Comorbidity Death Rate = ~2.38%
for Comparison
Annual Deaths due to Surgeon, Doctor or other Hospital Error: 440,000
Hospital Visits Per Year: 31.5M
Death Rate = ~1.4%
If you take a C19 CASE to be Equal unto a Hospital Visit then…
C19 is only 0.39% more likely to kill an otherwise healthy person/ 0.98% likely to kill someone with C19+Comorbidities than a normal hospital visit (with scheduled procedure as the original figures excluded ER visits and patient death resulting from unscheduled or emergency visits)
So yeah. If that’s enough to make you give up going to the ballpark and being eager to get the world moving again, then I’d say it’s a common case of Darwin at play.
Wasn’t directed at you.
I get it. This commenting format can be hard to follow without an appropriate “@”.
Which shouldn’t imply that I am not glad this showed up.
Cavalier? Yeah, at times for sure, bro.
Anyway.
Can’t lie about this one, man.
I started skimming a couple sentences in. Now: if you were the person who handles my actual finances & investments I could probably answer your question. After proper explanations – which you’d have to allow. Perhaps you may need to go over some things more than once. That would fit with my typical experience during those conversations.
I can say that I did recognize a number of the terms but no I cannot definitively answer your questions. But I took a screenshot in order to maybe someday use it to shock my money guy.
I’m really not all that good at that kind of stuff. I am good at building. & my partner & I build quite a few jobs. But long ago, I realized I was much better off turning that over to someone who is good at *that*. Part of the problem is I find that stuff pretty boring.
(Oddly enough, my son – a junior in high school – absolutely loves it. Plans on going to college for Econ.)
As far as the second part: well, yeah.
Why can’t someone buy the Braves please anyone??????????????????????????
@Ducky. Good call on the @
Sorry for the mini snap there, I thought you were implying something totally different and am sorta over this attitude (which I realize now you weren’t furthering in a hipster ironic way lol, but that you were genuinely making the comment about the $10M+, etc) but yeah, this attitude that capitalism and success is the root of all problems for those who see themselves as victimized have nots, so they want to tear it down at every turn and comment, yet their only problem with it is that they aren’t a bigger participant. It’s only evil because it hasn’t benefitted them more and they won’t dare earn, contribute and self govern their own participation by invested risk, yet, they’ll demand the Markets and Big Biz and High Earners make up the cost of their BA in Lesbian Dance Theory and other useless 4 year Degrees Instead of becoming Engineers or Skilled Tradesmen, etc.
I mean, if people want free school, go burn down the doors of the School Endowments currently liquid to the tune of $980B. Apply that to the $1.7T, and you’ve got $720B left. If these people can’t pay their College Debt to the tune of $0.4236 cents on the dollar, then they need to take the colleges to Court for a falsification of Value before they knock on all of our doors to pay it for them. Let alone burn our churches and businesses and demonize success as a concept. But I digress lol. Be well and thanks again for the heads up on navigating the comments!
It’s always interesting to see how a narrative mutates over time. This is a pretty good example of that phenomenon.
Remember when: “the owners didn’t lose money…they only lost profits.”
Now we have: “but the owners have made so much money in the past that they should be fine with enormous losses of revenue & profits.”
That’s a pretty notable difference & it happened rather quickly. To me, this just further exemplifies a very real change in how private property is currently viewed.
If one narrative doesn’t do it – well hell – just change it!
Both come down to: “we feel that we should have some of yours even though we have no reasonable claim to it”.
Kinda like some dillhole blovating about bogus “stolen election” nonsense.
Interest in MLB is cratering. Zoomers just don’t care. Boomers are dying off daily. Eventually there will be a reset for MLB. Some teams will get eliminated and salaries will plummet. It will become a niche entertainment option similar to WWE or MMA.
~ 100 years ago, Polo was more popular than football & hoops. *Combined*. There is even a Polo Hall of Fame down in Florida, man.
Personally, I don’t understand all the consternation in re the “future of baseball”. Things change. Architecture, music, art, fashion, & – yeah – sports included.
Since the CTE stuff came out football is losing popularity, too. The Park where my son used to play football fielded two teams when he played. Two years ago, they needed to combine with two other small parks to field a single squad. That’s in less than a decade. So, that fan base is also eroding.
But in the end…why care about it?