As the Orioles prepare to enter what will be the fourth season of a full-scale rebuild, ESPN’s Buster Olney reports that they’re “dangling” lefty John Means in trades in talks with other clubs (Twitter link).
Means, 28, is the lone established starter on the Orioles’ roster. Over the past three seasons, he’s pitched to a 3.73 ERA through 345 1/3 innings out of the Baltimore rotation. Means is the only pitcher who’s started more than 31 games for the O’s over the past three seasons (63), and of the 18 pitchers to make at least seven starts in that time he’s one of just three with an ERA south of 5.00. (Andrew Cashner and Dylan Bundy, no longer with the club, are the only others.)
Dating back to 2019, Means’ 5.1% walk rate is the sixth-lowest among all pitchers with at least 300 innings. His strikeout rate sat at 19% in 2019 but has jumped to 23% in 2020-21, bringing that roughly in line with the big league average. Home runs have been an issue for Means, who has yielded 1.69 big flies per nine frames. Being an extreme fly-ball pitcher at the homer-friendly Camden Yards can’t help the matter, but Means has struggled with the long ball on the road as well.
The 2021 season looked to be something of a breakout showing for Means early on, before a shoulder injury sidelined him for a portion of the year. The lefty pitched to a 2.05 ERA through his first 11 starts, headlined by a 12-strikeout no-hitter (and near perfect game) against the Mariners on May 5. Means faced just five hitters in his 12th start of the season before departing with a shoulder strain that would sideline him for more than six weeks.
There was no appreciable change in Means’ velocity upon returning from that IL stint — 92.9 mph average fastball pre-injury; 92.8 mph post-injury — but the southpaw yielded a 4.88 ERA with a diminished strikeout rate in 14 starts to close out the season, finishing out the year with a seven-run drubbing at the hands of the Blue Jays.
With three-plus years of service time now under his belt, Means is arbitration-eligible for the first time this winter. MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz projects a $3.1MM salary for Means in his first trip through the arb process. He’d be eligible for further raises upon that salary in each of the next two offseasons before reaching free agency following the 2024 season.
Means’ first notable salary increase of his career surely plays a role in any willingness to trade him, but it should be noted that there’s no reason that salary should cause payroll issues in Baltimore. The Orioles don’t have a single guaranteed contract on their 2022 roster, with the lone set cost coming via the dead money they owe to Chris Davis following his retirement. Even with that sum, Roster Resource’s Jason Martinez projects a payroll around $56MM, which would rank among the lowest in baseball. Potential trades of Means, Trey Mancini (projected $7.9MM salary), Anthony Santander ($3.7MM), etc. would further drop that figure.
With three years of affordable club control remaining, Means ought to command a strong return even with this past season’s shoulder injury and subsequent scuffles. That said, if the Orioles actually make the leap and trade their lone rotation lock, the 2022 staff could look quite grisly — at least early on. Top pitching prospects Grayson Rodriguez and DL Hall are nearing big league readiness, but the immediate rotation options behind Means have yet to find much in the way of MLB success. Jorge Lopez, Bruce Zimmermann, Keegan Akin, Zac Lowther, Dean Kremer and Spenser Watkins have all started big league games, but Zimmermann’s 5.30 ERA is the best of the group.
The Orioles could, of course, bring in a veteran or two on a low-cost deal in free agency, but they haven’t been willing to spend on veteran starters since their rebuild began. They’ve handed out a few minor league deals for veteran arms (Matt Harvey, Tommy Milone, Wade LeBlanc, Felix Hernandez), but the only pitcher given a guaranteed contract under GM Mike Elias was an $800K deal to Nate Karns in Feb. 2019.
Royals would make a lot of sense..he’s from kc too
The Mariners should trade for Means! We might not land an Ace but I’ll definitely take 5 three’s!
M’s should never trade for a lefty SP from the Orioles ever again. I still have nightmares of the Bedard trade.
Bedard was good as a Mariner. I had no problem with him pitching for us. Its not Bedard’s fault that the former General Manager for Seattle, Bill Bavasi, was an idiot and got fleeced!
I wouldn’t say good, for the fact he couldn’t stay healthy. He averaged only 15 starts and under 85 innings a year in Seattle, and he was always done by the 6th inning. Not exactly Ace numbers they were expecting.
And was the 2nd best pitcher on the team when he was in the field. Again not his fault for what we gave up in trade. He gave us a competitive outing each time on the hill. I would’ve liked someone more reliable, for the package we gave up. I was fine with him pitching for us though. Health issues definitely bit him in the butt.
The GM is the one to blame here.
Not sure how the gm is responsible for his health issues?
Hahahaha
Seattle wouldn’t likely cough up top young talent to acquire someone like Means. They’re more likely to absorb a bad contract to to soften the return in any trade involving a significant arm or fielder.
Like Luis Castillo and Mike Moustakus for a package centered around Evan white?
Why do people want to give up on White after part of a season He struggled at the plate not really a new thing. Kelenic did too but he was sent to Tacoma came back took a bit but then hit really well.
Do I agree he should spend more time down there yes I do. He should be more than 100% to get called back up. How much value do you think he has still injured? No reason to get him at a fair price if you don’t know what he will be.
No one wants White.
A package would most likely be around Marte possibly Hancock.
Regardless white would be a throw in prospect. Doubt anyone would want to pay his contract.
Might be able to snag Castillo with out a top 5 prospect however 3-4 of those 6-15 that we are stacked on would be shipped out. Brash ect.
Ms could get Moose for nothing and Reds would pay half his salary.
There is no chance Matte is included in a trade for Means. Unless the O’s plan on tossing back Adley Rutchman.
DiPoto & the M’s have made it clear..they won’t deal from the top of their prospect pool: Julio Rodriquez, Noelvi Marte, George Kirby, and maybe, Emerson Hancock).. So, that limits what the Mariners can/will do..
Making a three team deal essential or.. no Luis Castillo.. If the M’s are going for a starting pitcher.. then they may consider Cleveland..
The Guardians would consider taking on Evan White’s contract with Haniger as their target while sending one of their SP’s (plesac/civale).. would be my guess..
Thoughts?
Sorry about the name.
Honestly the Mariners have the worst lineup in baseball and you want to trade their best or second best bat for an arm? We have 4 great pitching prospects in the wings Julio really the only bat we can’t afford to trade Haniger for an arm.
Alright figured out how to change my name
@gson
That’s a NO
A fly ball pitcher with ties to KC? It sure sounds like a Dayton Moore move
That’s fine. O’s will take Erick Pena off your hands for him.
This makes no sense unless they’re getting major league ready talent. A few teams have a need for a lefty starter. Interesting. I could see cardinals and Mets looking at this.
Every team always has a need for a left handed starter who is good.
Mets ain’t making no trades. SAC & Eppler both said they will spend but not be involved in significant trades.
There is not enough in the farm system to deplete. It’s why they didn’t have an issue with losing both Thor and Conforto. They gain 2 picks from those players leaving.
I wound up responding below but meant to do it here.
Dombrowski needs to get on this.
Rebuilding the rebuild?
Exactly my thoughts too. Don’t get this
I’m thinking they don’t think that a) they will be competing by the time he is a free agent or b) they want to cash in when his value is “high” because they worry he can’t repeat his first half success…which by the way ended with his injury/spider tack was banned. I love the guy, but he is a good pitcher on a bad team who could yield a decent return that helps supplant the big Free Agent splash the Orioles are planning once they see signs of life from their young core.
The Mets have a few arb and pre-arb position players who could be involved in a trade if the DH doesn’t come to the NL in 2022 who could draw some trade interest – McNeil, J.D. Davis, Dom Smith, and Brandon Nimmo – depending upon who the target is and which FAs they sign.
Getting rid of the best pitcher in the entire organization in his 1st year of arbitration is brutal insanity. Have some dignity. Show your fans you give a bleep. I’m a Pirates fan first and an Orioles fan second (glutton for punishment) and I beg the Orioles Mgmt to keep this guy, or trade him to the Pirates as he would be their #1 starter for the next 3 to 5 years, if they could get him to sign an extension to buy out the first two years of his free agency.
The Mets should be on Means since they keep losing pitchers, maybe include Mullins too. Maybe Smith,Davis,Szapucki and a lower prospect ?
No way they give up Mullins for that. That’s selling super low on him. Davis and Smith are not good. At least yet. Both are young and controlled but still. Szapucki just had surgery and the Mets lower level prospects are not great. As a Mets fan, I’d love that trade. As a baseball fan, the orioles would get fleeced.
Do the ends justify the Means?
It’s too bad Eppler beat you out.
Sounds like right package just for Means, no Mullins
Don’t think that even sounds right for Means. Dom Smith’s one good season looks like a fluke and Davis is bad defensively. I can’t see the Mets as a match in a trade for either guy.
Stop.
The Mets should be in on Means, but they’d have to offer a solid package. What you offered isn’t even close. Mullins alone is one of the most valuable commodities in the game. Not sure the Mets have enough currently to build a package for him and Means.
U want a #2 starter and a top ten MVP finisher for mediocre prospects? Big dreams
Lol what? This can’t be a serious trade proposal. Just this year these two players combined for about 10 WAR at the MLB level.
No way Mets are involved in any significant trade. They do not have a deep enough farm system. SAC explicitly said this.
Why is it that New York fans thinks any team wants your scraps. No one will give up legit talent for Dominic Smith(mets), JD Davis(mets), Gary Sanchez (Yankees), or Miguel Andujar(Yankees). You will be lucky to get a 4A player in return for any of those players. The days of having “decent” bat and horrible defensive “prospects” is behind us. Just my thoughts though
JD Davis is actually quite a good player if you see him strictly as a DH. I think that Dom Smith’s hitting woes are attributed to him playing the outfield instead of firstbase. Smith could possibly be a gold glove first basemen if he got to play there but the Mets want to keep Alonso happy and comfortable, so Smith is left off in the outfield
The Orioles had a “gold glove” caliber firstbaseman for years that couldn’t do as well with the bat. His name is Chris Davis. Just saying.
Because to New York fans New York’s trash is everyone else’s treasure
In many cases, unfortunately, that is true because they do better when they move to other clubs.
Any examples? I wouldn’t say Dillon Tate, Chance Adams, Thairo Estrada,Dustin, Fowler,Justus Sheffield,Jorge Mateo, etc. could be considered anything but decent bullpen/bench guys. So why would a team send a relatively solid player for someone they could get in minor league free agency.
The way the New York’s value former prospects is the way the Orioles used to overvalue there’s when they had Luis Matos,Daniel Cabrera, Sidney Ponson,etc. These players aren’t exactly lighting baseball on fire or ever really did for that matter.
That is like saying Os will take deGrom and Alonso for Mullins and Means. Of course not.
Jerry Dipoto, do your thing!! Mariners make too much sense.
Trust the process
I don’t normally pay too much attention to FIP but in his case it’s a big difference from his ERA.
The man is a FB pitcher. Might be sustainable, just like his low BABIP. His next team will find out who he really is.
It is a rather stark difference, isn’t it? FIP is a useful statistic, but still needs to be considered in context. It is fully in line with the current zeitgeist that the only meaningful outcomes are homers, walks, and strikeouts. FIP doesn’t give any value to pitchers with a history of inducing weak contact, implying that it may just be a matter of luck or good defense rather than pitch selection and location. I would argue that low K, low BB pitchers that depend on command and execution will be prone to homers when they miss their pitch. A 92 mph fastball middle-middle is more likely to be hit hard than a 98 mph fastball center of the plate. But a 92 mph fastball up in the zone or low and away would likely induce weak contact and quick outs.
That’s why I don’t usually get caught up in it. It doesn’t tell the whole story and I am just lazy enough to not search hard hit contact percentages etc.
I think it’s a natural reaction brought on by Pineda, Joe. Shiny peripherals. Poopy results.
John Means ER metrics and difference
ERA 3.62
(0.00 diff)
xERA 4.09
(0.47 diff)
FIP 4.62
(1.00 diff)
Yes, let’s build a team by trading the only starter who has shown sustained competence still remaining, because its time to pay him a little. Let’s make sure that any prospects coming up get the message loud and clear that when they come to Baltimore you’d better apartment shop and not house shop, because if you play well you have signed your ticket out of town.
The writer is wrong. They are not trading him because of money. Mike elias was part of the same rebuild in houston. Its purely because he wont be a core player by the time the orioles are ready to compete. By that time he will be a free agent and the orioles are all about accumulating high end prospects today.
But they’re that cheap. Or Peter Angelos is. They will need new ownership to ever be ready to compete.
It’s not that the Orioles are cheap, it’s just that they pay the wrong players big money – Chris Davis, Albert Belle, Ubaldo Jimenez…
Twins might be involved
The rebuild is obviously moving too fast in Baltimore; need to slow it down a bit.
Trading away a controllable pitcher who is at least an average MLB starter is the absolute BEST way to become competitive. Of course, if Means comes out strong in 2022, his value increases dramatically at the trading deadline. But why would the O’s want to maximize talent?
This isn’t some elaborate scheme to slow down the rebuild. If Means was 25 they probably wouldn’t be entertaining the idea- but he’s not. At 28, and with the O’s at least 3 years away (or more) in a tough division, it makes sense to try to turn him into two or three pieces that better fit their timeline.
Right now it’s about prospects and draft picks in Baltimore.
In 2025, it’ll be about prospects and draft picks.
Last year Oriole pitchers threw 1,402 innings.
Means threw 146. Next year he might throw 190 innings if healthy.
The Orioles are light years away from the other 4 AL East teams. Max Scherzer could pitch for them in 2022 and they’ll still finish 5th.
Has nothing to do with money. Has to do with getting a few decent prospects for Mears while they still can.
I’d be very leery of this guy. Shoulder problems are traditionally challenging to come back from. And the fact they are suddenly putting him out there makes you wonder if it’s even more serious than was reported, since they have the medicals. Along with his struggles later in the season, no way am I moving a top prospect for Means.
Wow. Means is the real deal. This guy is an absolute ace, but perhaps the shoulder is more concerning than initially thought. Why else would Baltimore put him on the trading block?
The little yellow chicks can answer your question…
“cheap! cheap! cheap! cheap!”
I like means but an Ace is a shocking assessment of his talent and production. Gerrit Cole must be a demigod by your standards
@Astros By ace I simply mean potential to be a top 3o pitcher in the sense that there are 30 teams and Means would be a #1 starter on a few of them. Obviously there’s a level of ace as well. Means is no Gerrit Cole, but still, I think it’s pretty clear that Means has ace-level stuff when he’s on his game. He’s young enough to develop more. Clearly flawed, but tons of potential.
I saw Means pitch a few games when he was healthy.
The man is an Ace.
Why would anyone think Gerrit Cole is demigod the was he pitched the last half of the season?
Cole only stunk in September
When it mattered
Dark Horse candidate. Three way trade.
Orioles, Blue Jays, Marlins
Marlins get Means, Kirk
Blue Jays get Brian Anderson
Orioles get prospects
Not the entire deal as other pieces will change hands but everybody involved benefits and that’s the general framework
Marlins pick up their catcher and a stable arm in the rotation
Blue Jays get Anderson to play 3B for 2 years at a decent rate (5 mill estimate arb) hoping he rebounds
Orioles get prospects close to mlb
The issue with that is the blue jays want starters more and Anderson seems like an oft injured player
I’m not seeing the 3 way component of this. It looks like two separate trades to me. I guess Fry or Sulser to Toronto would get the Toronto portion of the trade closer to even. Baltimore would then need considerable prospect value from Miami.
Marlins need offense, so I don’t think it makes sense to move Anderson. I don’t think Kirk is enough to offset the offensive loss. Even in acquiring Means.
Except the Marlins don’t need starters. They have too many.
The Marlins primary position of strength is starting pitching. They are pretty loaded. They don’t need Means.
They’ve had injuries to their staff. They certainly could use a stable presence in the rotation and trade 1 or 2 pitchers elsewhere to fill out the roster offensively. It’s never a bad thing to have too much pitching as year after year prove.
Not even close.
The Blue Jays get nothing in this deal as Anderson can’t stay healthy at 3B and the Jays already have a crowded OF. If anything the Jays would want Pablo Lopez back in the deal or maybe even Miguel Rojas who could start at either 2B or 3B and move to the bench if/when Groshans is ready during the season
personally i think Mike Elias should be arrested and tried
Sounds like a LAA pickup… Bundy, Cobb, now Means.
The Angels system is so bare now, I don’t really know who they even have to get Means with. Detmers and a few lottery types?
Yankees would make a lot of sense trading for Means and Mancini
Means wouldn’t be a good fit for Yankee Stadium.
I guess you have to listen and see what you can get when you are at this stage. I think it’s ridiculous though. It’s not like Baltimore is completely devoid of offensive talent that is worth watching and has more on the way fairly soon. With that ballpark, I’d go watch the young players but it’s a really tough sell if I’d have to watch really bad baseball because all the pitchers are in way over their heads.
Suppose the O’s came to the conclusion that Means was pitching way over his true talent level, and wanted to cash out on him?
Haha so what has the Os front office been right about the last several years?
Dylan Bundy, for one.
Do you think the return is good enough though if they are trying to cash out on performance they don’t think reflects his true talent level? Don’t other front offices also evaluate him based on true talent level? My argument is that a team that is graduating young position players to the majors should be putting a watchable product on the field even if they don’t have a shot at competitiveness in the short term. A major league average cheap starting pitcher should be as valuable to a team that has very few other major league caliber pitchers than any other team. At some point entertainment value on any given day should be of value just as much as the accumulation of wins over the season. The Orioles probably shouldn’t be bidding on multi year contracts for those types of guys, but when you have one you aren’t paying any considerable money to, why not just let him be a part of your team? I’m a Blue Jays fan that has to watch a lot of Orioles baseball. Make me want to tune in.
Means reminds me of Blake Snell as far as his repertoire/style is concerned. So, I think he’s pretty good anyway.
I know a lot of modern pitching philosophy revolves around eliminating certain pitches. I do get it. Why get beat on what isn’t your best offering(s)? But Means is a guy that I think would really benefit from learning how to cut his FB, too. I think it would give him an even better chance at controlling RH bats.
But I’m just some dude with internet access.
So.
&…no. Absolutely no fly ball pitchers in The Stadium. That never works out for the Yanks.
modern pitching philosophy revolves around eliminating certain pitches.
=================================
Joe Montana and the 49er coaches made it a practice to review every interception Montana made to figure out what went wrong. I’d guess everyone does that now, but that was hi-tech once upon a time.
I don’t understand why people are surprised to hear this. Means was probably going to be traded at the deadline before his injury. The Orioles would be smart to move him now while he’s being overvalued
You can forget the Mets. They’re not going to trade prospects
I just had a conversation with my friend about this, a fellow Orioles’ fan:
Friend: (borrowing from Major League): “They should fine guys who play well. Give bonuses for really poor play.”
Me: “The Orioles are too cheap to give out any bonuses.”
Friend: “So what should happen if they play well?”
Me: “They can be traded to a real team.”
When his change up is right, he is untouchable…
Yorke and Bello for Means? Too much? Not enough?
I’m not trading Yorke for almost anyone.
Hard no for me. It is unusual to suggest that someone is lucky for two years in a row, but it feels like it in this case.
He has BABIP & LOB% of .216/82.8% and .240/80.5. Both those numbers look ripe for regression.
From a RS perspective, a HR rate of 2.0/9 is alarming.
After his injury last year, his ERA was 5.01.
A lot of stats point towards regression.
baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/john-means-60…
His XWoba and XERA the last 2 seasons suggest he’s a quality middle of the rotation arm. He does a good job of limiting hard contact and his change up is truly a good pitch.
I don’t think he’s developing into a #1 starter but I do fully believe he’s a rock solid affordable #3.
Only concern is his shoulder but what would be the prospects cost to acquire him?
I’m glad the Orioles finally have something worth “dangling”.
Jung, Winn, and Leiter are untouchable for the Rangers, but a Means package headlined by Foscue doesn’t seem out of the picture.
This would be a fantastic start to the Rangers off season!
They should be dangling Mullins, as well. His timeline doesn’t fit with their window and with all the needs out there for CF help, they could benefit from a shallow market that misses out on an older Starling Marte. They’ve got Mancini to bridge the gap to the younger generation of Adley and company.
It’d be tough for O’s fans to stomach but I do agree with you, Run. If they traded Means and Mullins in separate deals, they easily net 5 ML capable prospects.
I think teams would like to see Mullins replicate his numbers from last year before giving up 2 or 3 prospects for him.
Come on down to stl!
Wasn’t this guy significantly less effective when MLB clamped down on the sticky stuff?
If I were the Orioles, looking up at Toronto, Boston, Tampa and NY, getting Revenue Sharing, not particularly caring about being competitive, hey, sell off and bank the cash. There could be real baseball reasons for this, but they seem never to be articulated by O’s management
Means is one of those guys that was good for a year or so and gets overrated by fans. I’d be weary giving up a kings ransom for him. High chance he crashes. If I’m the o’s I’d deal him now before he crashes
Some are calling him a ace which is ridiculous lol. That word gets thrown around too much
Ace simply means #1 starter. He’s clearly the Orioles ace. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say.
Being the ace of the Orioles staff is no achievement
I would still put him somewhere around the top 30-40 starters in baseball. He’s a legitimate #2-3 on almost every team in baseball. He’s a #1 on a few. I think it’s all semantics. I think it’s fair to call him an ace. That doesn’t mean he’s a Cy Young contender.
Go get him AA. We have enough farm depth to make it happen.
Tulo is in the DL Hall.
Post injury, post sticky stuff, Means is pretty useless. I would not be upset if my Orioles traded him and got value. We don’t want to end up like the Tigers and Matt Boyd.
Maybe we can fleece the Angels again like we did with Iggy and Bundy?
Deleted headline:
Means to an end?
Unlike a previous comment, I definitely think Mike Elias is doing all the right things to make the Orioles a contender in the near future. Pitching and pitchers are a changing commodity and sometimes it’s better to strike a deal while the iron is hot.. John Mean’s value is much improved over the last few years. The Orioles are not ready to contend just yet so to receive a prospect filled deal with a team would definitely be better than holding on to him at this point.
No harm in seeing what the return would look like; however I’m doubting they trade him now unless it’s huge.
The Os are definitely not on the Astros model, which I feel is what they have been selling us. In year 4 the Astros finally increased payroll and added several “moderate” free agents. Not the $1 million type re-treads trying to revive their careers. The Astros added in year 4 a starting pitcher ($10M+), a closer, and a couple of fielders. It only helped them reach 70 wins but they were on the way. They continued to add new free agents each year after. It looks like the Os are on a protracted rebuild.
I don’t think you can just say “Astros model”
Completely different divisions. It’s all about what time period makes sense for the team. It doesn’t make sense to start spending right now. I’ve said this all along that it was going to be a long rebuild. 2023 was the earliest I saw competitive baseball coming to Baltimore.
It takes a long time to completely rebuild a team in the ALE. Orioles should still be in the accumulate prospects time period.
If serious talent is on the table for Means—you have to listen. Hall and G-Rod aren’t enough. Everyone else in the system looks like a reliever or a back end rotation arm if they’re lucky.
So they’re trading the one good pitcher on their team? Not sure I get this…
I take that back. After checking, his FIP is sky high. Now is the time to get talent back before his true colors show
Yeah, BAL senses something on the horizon for this guy much the same way CLE did when they dealt Clevinger to SD. As Dick Wagner (CIN) used to say, “Better to trade a player too early than too late.”
Mullins and Means to the Royals Mondesi and prospects to Orioles …would be great for both teams
Is Witt one of the prospects?
Maybe like a Jackson Kowar Asa Lacey …royals are loaded with high potential arms
I’d trade Means for Lacy.
That’d be it. No Mullins included. Lacy is coming off a disappointing season and has legitimate control issues. .
I’d love him as a brave. Would love Trey also. Let’s start the conversation for just Mean… Drew Waters, Kyle Muller, and some other lower tier top 30 prospect for him. Too much? Too little? That’s a decent haul for him.
AA doesn’t trade top prospect, so this will never happen. But it’s still fun to entertain the conversation in the offseason
Too much IMO. The shoulder concern plus I really like Waters. I understand he had a down year but I believe in him. And Muller, to me, is about as good as Means anyway. Unproven, of course, but he’s a lefty who throws hard. I wouldn’t do it if I’m the Braves.
I’m also a big fan of Waters, Coop. I like his potential better than Pache’s. Last year was just a bump in the road, I think. Given the weird year in 2020, I hope they hold onto him and see how he matures.
He strikes out a ton and for that, I’m still concerned he won’t put it together. Plus he doesn’t have a ton of pop. But I still like him better overall than Pache. I just don’t have the most confidence in waters.
The Braves don’t need Means. If healthy, yes, he’d make them better. The Braves need OF help, though. So there is no way on Earth I’d trade Waters for Starting Pitching that the Braves already have.
Braves really only have 3 starting pitchers for next season. Beyond that, it’s kinda a wild card of who can and will perform at a decent lvl. Will soroka come back the same if at all? Ynoa is unreliable, Wright looked good this postseason, but he also did that last postseason sooo who is he. And Davidson and Muller have yet to really prove they can maintain their short term success. I definitely think we need at least 1 more proven starter. And I pray we will see soroka at his peak again some day.
How about Means and Mancini to the Mets for JD Davis and Mark Vientos (3b)?
That is so unbalanced it is silly. Like Alonso for Means and Mancini? Of course not!
Vientos is a pretty decent prospect.
That’s not enough for Means. But Trey doesn’t have the value that Orioles fans think. He was barely above average w the bat last year and his defense isn’t good. We only have him under control for 1 more season. He’s a guy who it may just make sense to extend. If he’s willing to sign at a reasonable rate.
He wore down at the end of last year. Which coming off a year where you battled stage 3 cancer makes perfect sense to me. I’d rather keep him around on an extension and take the chance his stamina comes back.
He was really using the sticky stuff and now cannot use it so the O’s are trying to unload. Beware.
And you know this HOW…?
Cards could use means, and have prospects to trade. Maybe zac Thompson, luken baker, edmundo sosa or dejong, and delvin perez. 3 top 15 prospects, 1 top 5, 1 top 10, 1 top 15 and sosa who can start at short, or dejong as a bounce back candidate. Dejong could then be flipped or kept.
If I’m the Orioles, I’m using the Quintana to the Cubs as my comp. It might have that value or you might increase your suitors if you wait until the deadline. Just scratching the surface I wouldn’t trade Means unless the conversation started with STL-Norman Gorman, ATL -Pache or Texas-Jung. Those in Seattle should just sit back and wait as you have a lot of top pitching prospects already. Those in STL who think you can pawn off 2nd tier prospects like a 280lb AA first baseman should move on.
Good trade comps. Like all 3.
As an Atlanta fan, I’d honestly have no problem with convo starting with Pache if it ended with him, too. My opinion, you get no more than that for a SP who may be hurt; and one that Atlanta also doesn’t desperately need.
2nd tier prospects lol. Zac Thompsons a top 5 prospect in the organization and sosa is technically their starting shortstop. Baker is a big boy, but he can hit the ball very far. Back up first baseman slash dh’s that hit homers are a commodity. Now delvin perez was a throw in who is still young. Just saying the potential for a trade partner is there. But gorman or libertore wouldnt be included unless the player is an ace.means is or was good, but ace he is not. They want gorman they would have to give up means and some.
According to FG, Thompson is a 45 FV and Baker is a 40+. Solid prospects, but not the types that get a controllable, established arm. A package for Means absolutely must contain Liberatore or Gorman. Maybe Walker with someone like Thompson and a few lottery ticket types might be enough.
Thompson might be the #5 in a weak system like STL but he’d probably be #8 or #9 in Baltimore’s top heavy but strong system.
Buyer Beware: dudes peripherals paint a picture of a very overrated arm.
The Orioles (my team) would be stupid to trade Means in my opinion. He is the only guaranteed pitcher they have and his health has been questionable the past 2 years. This is just my opinion.
Would be sad to see him go, but it’s the right thing to do. He’s our ace but another teams 3. Besides after Wander got paid today, so better be ready for an Adley bag!!
Padres send Weathers and Rosario to the Orioles for Means.
Who says no?.
Maybe Baltimore? You may not be far off. I’d imagine Baltimore would love to get a SS, so it’d probably depend how they felt about Weathers.
I think the market for Means will pick up after Steven Matz signs. Most of the teams interested in Matz would likely be interested in Means as well
Means will cost more simpler due to his team control and isn’t getting our much. I don’t think the prospects that will be requested are worth it unless the o’s screw up
Means really REALLY struggled after the substance checks started, last 3 months an era of 4.88. The question is how much was substance and how much was from injury?