Longtime first baseman Fred McGriff was inducted to the Baseball Hall of Fame, the only player elected out of the eight nominees under consideration by the 16-person Era Committee. McGriff was a unanimous vote, getting votes from all 16 members.
Twelve votes were required for selection, and of the other seven players on the ballot, Don Mattingly came closest with eight votes. Curt Schilling received seven votes, Dale Murphy six votes, and the other candidates (Albert Belle, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Rafael Palmeiro) each got fewer than four votes.
McGriff hit .284/.377/.509 with 493 home runs over his career, which spanned 19 seasons (1986-2004) with the Blue Jays, Padres, Braves, Rays, Cubs, and Dodgers. The Crime Dog’s impressive resume included a World Series ring with the 1995 Braves, as well as the individual honors of five All-Star appearances, three Silver Slugger awards, and six top-10 finishes in MVP voting. McGriff’s highest finish in the MVP race was fourth, during a 1993 season split between San Diego and Atlanta.
The Yankees actually drafted McGriff in the ninth round in 1981, but he was dealt to the Blue Jays in 1982 as part of a trade that longtime Bronx fans still remember with regret — ironically, Mattingly’s presence as the Yankees’ first baseman of the future was one of the reasons New York was comfortable in dealing McGriff. Blossoming as a star in Toronto, McGriff nevertheless found himself dealt to the Padres almost exactly 32 years ago to the day, in one of baseball’s most memorable blockbuster trades. The Jays moved McGriff and Tony Fernandez to the Padres for Roberto Alomar and Joe Carter, in a swap that set the table for Toronto’s World Series titles in 1992 and 1993.
The Padres’ own hopes of contention faded, and McGriff was one of many notables dealt during a fire sale in 1993. The first baseman became one of the stalwarts of the Braves’ success throughout the 1990’s, and enjoyed some championship success himself with Atlanta’s 1995 title. Over his career in the postseason, McGriff continued to swing a mighty bat, hitting .303/.385/.532 with 10 homers over 218 PA in the playoffs.
McGriff then joined the expansion Tampa Bay Devil Rays in 1998, with the Tampa native getting a chance to play in his hometown. Over five seasons with the Devil Rays and then in brief stints with the Cubs and Dodgers, McGriff was still at least an above-average hitter until well into his late 30’s, before finally starting to slow down with L.A. in 2003 and then a final season with Tampa Bay in 2004.
Though McGriff was a staple of any “professional hitter” discussion, he was also somewhat underrated during his career, perhaps owing to the fact that he played for several teams during his career rather than becoming an iconic figure for one particular franchise. The 1994-95 players’ strike was also often cited as a reason for McGriff’s lack of Cooperstown recognition, as those lost games surely cost McGriff the chance of surpassing the 500-homer threshold, leaving him with “only” 493 big flies.
These may have been reasons why McGriff never came close to the 75% voting threshold required for induction via the writers. It also didn’t help that McGriff had the bad luck of being up for election amidst a crowded era for candidates, including several players dogged by PED suspicions or other off-the-field issues — including Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, and Schilling.
The “veterans committee” is the catch-all name for an annual panel of rotating membership, organized by the Hall Of Fame every year to gauge the cases of players who weren’t elected or considered by the writers, or non-playing personnel who aren’t a part of the writers’ ballot. Candidates are considered from the “Contemporary Baseball” (1980-present) and “Classic Baseball” (1980 and earlier) time periods, and broken down into a three-year rotation…
- Contemporary Baseball, players: 2022, 2025, 2028, etc.
- Contemporary Baseball, managers/executives/umpires: 2023, 2026, 2029, etc.
- Classic Baseball, all candidates: 2024, 2027, 2030, etc.
As such, the seven players who weren’t voted in on this year’s ballot will have to wait until December 2025 to receive another look, and it isn’t necessarily a guarantee that any of those seven will even make the 2025 shortlist. However, since several of the names on the veterans committee change every year, it is quite possible that a HOF candidate who missed out this time might be regarded more favorably by a future committee.
That being said, the rather drastic lack of support for Bonds and Clemens on this ballot might be a strong hint that it will be some time before the hard feelings dissipate over the two superstars’ alleged use of PEDs. While Bonds and Clemens weren’t inducted by the writers, their final year on the ballot saw them each obtain at least 65% of the vote, falling respectably close to that 75% threshold. Likewise, Palmeiro (who was suspended for PED usage in 2005) lasted only four years on the writers’ ballot before falling off, and was perhaps even a surprise candidate for inclusion on this year’s Contemporary Baseball shortlist. Schilling’s history of inflammatory and controversial public statements and tweets also stalled his support from the writers, and his first appearance on an Era Committee also saw him fall well short of induction.
It also seems possible that the overwhelming show of support for McGriff was also something of a repudiation of the PED era. McGriff, Mattingly, and Murphy were seen as the most controversy-free candidates on this particular eight-player ballot, with no ties to PEDs or other off-the-field issues. Though McGriff’s power numbers were impressive in their own right, the overwhelming homer totals posted by some of McGriff’s peers in the late 90’s and early 2000’s had the effect of making his numbers look lesser in comparison, which may have been another reason why McGriff never quite got his full due either during his career or on the writers’ ballot.
McGriff will be inducted into Cooperstown on July 23. He will be joined by any players elected via the writers’ ballot, and those results will be announced on January 24.
This year’s 16-person Contemporary Baseball committee was comprised of Angels owner Arte Moreno, former Blue Jays president Paul Beeston, Twins president/CEO Dave St. Peter, Diamondbacks president/CEO Derrick Hall, White Sox executive VP Ken Williams, Marlins GM Kim Ng, former Red Sox/Cubs front office boss Theo Epstein, Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle, La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star Tribune, longtime statistician and broadcaster Steve Hirdt, and Hall-of-Fame players Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell. Chipper Jones was initially supposed to be part of the committee, but couldn’t participate due to illness and was replaced by Hall.
Jaysfan1981
Congrats Crimedog!! You deserve it
iverbure
I never really heard a good argument for him being not elected before. You can’t not vote for the peels guys but then compare his numbers to ped guys.
thecrown24
Well deserved for the Crime Dog!! Charlie Hustle needs to be elected in before he passes. He’s paid his dues enough is enough already. MLB needs to do the right thing That Hit Record will continue to stand for a very very long time if not one of those records that will never be broken imo.
Bobby smac9
Read the Dowd report
deweybelongsinthehall
Pete Rose will not get in while alive. Has a better shot once he’s gone. Probably Schilling too.
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Probably right about Pete. What is the hold up on Shoeless Joe though? He’s been dead for atleast 15 years right?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Before he passes gas? Or passes the old lady in the golf cart?
ThonolansGhost
Shoeless Joe is never going in. That might be true for Rose, too.
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ThonolansGhost, Why is Shoeless Joe never going in???
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Charlie Hustle was likely a statutory rapist. He is no ambassador of the game.
Rose admits that, as a married 34 year old, he committed adultery with a 16 year-old, just denies that she was 15.
cnn.com/2022/08/08/sport/pete-rose-baseball-rape-c…
MLB Top 100 Commenter
millcreeksports.com/pete-rose-autographed-official…
amazon.com/Cincinnati-Autograph-Inscribed-Witnesse…
websoulsurfer
Rose won’t get in before he dies or after. He broke the cardinal rule of baseball. The only rule that is displayed in every clubhouse in professional baseball.
Then after being caught beyond a reasonable doubt, he lied about it for a decade. He doesn’t belong.
ekrog
So he bet on his team to win. Isn’t that what everyone does?
ekrog
He bet on his team to win. What’s the issue there?
Jean Matrac
15 years? Try 71 years. Shoeless Joe will never get in, and his case is better than Rose’s.
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I know Tad. Was JK. Why do you say Jackson never gets in??
Jean Matrac
It isn’t that simple. If he bets on his team to win by 2 runs, and, say they’re in the 9th and in danger of winning by more than that, the manager can manipulate the game to reduce the odds of that happening.
Like Bobby smac9 says: read the Dowd report.
websoulsurfer
He broke the cardinal rule of baseball. That is all. He will never get in.
Jean Matrac
Sorry, didn’t get the joke.
Gambling is the cardinal sin in baseball. Jackson admitted to taking a bribe to throw the series. Even though he put up very numbers, there will always be questions. And even if he tried his best to win, baseball will never forgive him. He, like Rose, are banned from MLB, and anyone banned, cannot be inducted in the HoF.
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Sure hope you are wrong
Dumpster Divin Theo
Oh geez. Betting on sports. You can’t do that. Oh wait, what’s this? Next thing you know they’re gonna start paying college athletes. Might as well allow trash cans in the dugout too.
Dumpster Divin Theo
What’s the cardinal rule of baseball. Though shall not hit .222 and do back flips while running on to the artifical turf?
Jaysfansince92
Was it proven that he made those kind of bets? I’ve never heard that before. That would definitely change the equation.
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Jays, I have ALWAYS heard and been of the belief that he NEVER bet against his own team!
Dumpster Divin Theo
He didn’t lie after being caught beyond a reasonable doubt. He’s just shy and wanted to keep his shirt on. Bam!
Dumpster Divin Theo
He bet on his team to win. I think there’s an app for that.
Deadguy
Shoeless Joe Lmao I’m dying
avenger65
Much longer than that. He received a lifetime ban from bb. I think he’s served his sentence. And it doesn’t matter that Rose isn’t in the Hof. Anyone that knows bb knows that Rose is a HOFer. Passing the great Ty Cobb with over 4,000 hits speaks for itself.
avenger65
Jackson, who never said he had anything to do with the scandal, received a LIFETIME ban. He’s dead. He served his sentence. It’s time to put the only man Ty Cobb feared finishing ahead of him for the batting title, to put him in the Hof, where he belongs.
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Avenger, I have heard of instances where Cobb said Shoeless Joe was the best hitter ever after him, but he also used to say the same about Hornsby. More often Joe though. But Joe had all 5 tools he could do it all!
Jean Matrac
Jaysfansince92 If you’re referring to Rose, what I offered was a hypothetical, but a manager surely is in a position to do that. What to me is more germane is the fact that Rose accepted a lifetime ban in exchange for the results of the investigation into his gambling, not be made public.
Jean Matrac
avenger65, It’s not true that he said he never had anything to do with the scandal. Just the opposite in fact. He admitted to taking the money, but denied doing anything to affect the outcome. Given his numbers in the WS, I think that’s probably true. But the fact that he took the money is what keeps him banned, and out of the HoF.
Jean Matrac
Dumpster Divin Theo, MLB is the only major sport that had players tried in court, who admitted to, and were found guilty of accepting a bribe from gamblers to throw a championship. It nearly killed the sport because fans became suspicious of what they saw on the field. It called into question past World Series’, and cynicism of future ones.
What the issue is is gambling within the sport, not gambling by others outside of it. If you think MLB is overreacts to any gambling within the sport, I disagree.
admiral hopppaaa
He was essentially throwing games that he didn’t bet on in order to load up his lineup and bullpen for games that he did bet on. If you don’t see a problem with that, I can’t help you.
Dumpster Divin Theo
I thought the cardinal sin of baseball was crying. Crying? There’s no crying in baseball? Forrest Gump said so. And what mama told Forrest is gospel
Dumpster Divin Theo
For Cobb to say that with his insatiable competitiveness and ego speaks volumes. The day Shoeless Joe finally gets in will be celebrated widely!
Dumpster Divin Theo
Rose should be kept out for maintaining that bizarre bowl haircut. At least keep him out until it comes back in style. Who he, Lloyd Christmas?
Hawktattoo
Seized betting slips with his name on them..he admitted to it also in his book.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Tad most of what you say is true. But technically the Black Sox players werent found guilty in court. Keeneshaw Mt Landis, the same guy who conspired to keep baseball white, acted unilaterally.
Id be on board with what you hold up until the Astro fiasco. Wouldn’t knowledge but not going along with the plot or taking money put Buck Weaver in the same company as AJ Hinch, both hated the idea but wouldn’t rat out their teammates. AJ was accepted back in the good graces of baseball fairly quickly.
Doesn’t what the Astro conspirators do and know also undermine confidence in the integrity of the game?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Would be interesting to see what the record is of games he bet and didn’t bet on, and respective lineups. Never thought of it that way, interesting angle.
The Fiend
Or you use all your good relievers to win a tight bet, err game. The next day, give a couple guys the day off, pitch your lower bullpen guys and don’t bet.
A manager has too much control of the game. He should never be in.
Not even counting the character clause
Jean Matrac
DD Theo, I think there is a level of magnitude between trying to get away with an unfair advantage, and taking money from gamblers to intentionally throw a game. It’s one thing knowing that a team cheated, and another to not know if anything was on the level.
Chris G.
Victim of extremely overcrowded ballots due to silly voting and ballot rules and limitations by the HOF Board.
DarrenDreifortsContract
The only argument was he never hit 500 home runs but once you get rid of all of the losers who took steroids. His numbers are pretty impressive and he should have made twice as many all star games as he did.
MarlinsFanBase
And the reason he didn’t get to 500 is because of the MLBPA. I think nearly all of us agree that if MLB didn’t lose the games in 94 and some of them in 95, McGriff would have surpassed 500 pretty distinctly (probably hitting the 510 mark with the very likely HRs totals he could do in that span of games).
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And Williams would have hit 65 jacks and Gwynn would have hit .400
Dumpster Divin Theo
And a 26 yr old Frank Thomas might have won the triple crown with his 38-101-.353 line and 1.217 OPS.
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Now ur talkin Theo!!!! Sad state of affairs that season!
AndyMeyer
Crime Dog! Taking a bite out of the Hall. Well deserved.
Tcsbaseball
About time, this has been long overdue!
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JaysFan, I expect atleast 100+ thumbs up by morning on your post k?
Jaysfan1981
At time of this posting its at 69 lolz
Took a screen shot in case proof is required
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I’ll take another screenshot at 3:00am SoCal time as well in case Guinness wants to question your integrity. Got your back JaysFan!
BeansforJesus
I’m pretty disappointed mcgriffhof or whatever his name wasn’t the first person to post here.
I assumed he would be sporting a rager and amped up like the Macho Man.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Ewww
ham77
It’ll be cool if he went in as a Devil Ray.
dirkg
Do yourself a favor and Google Tom Emanski Fred McGriff commercial. Even 70s truck drivers had hats that sat lower. Long live the Crime Dog!
Dumpster Divin Theo
It’s 1974. What is this Todd Emanski and Gargle that you speak of? Mouthwash?
TheMan 3
Thankfully none of the PEDers were elected!!!
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JaysFan!!! Getting closer!!!! 9 to go!!!! You are gonna end up glitching out the site!!
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JaysFan!!! I’m recruiting people off the street to get you 4 more thumbs up..
Bluejay4life
About Time
User 3044878754
Belle, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro fewer than 4 votes
Let’s let the people vote as opposed to 16 sanctimonious sportswriters
Albert Belle most serving as he was a no steroid guy
Holy Cow!
I hope Bonds, Clemens, and Palmeiro are not considered the next go around. Give other candidates a chance in 2025.
implant
@OIC2021. Guess you didn’t do your homework as to who is in the veterans committee
MLB Top 100 Commenter
OIC2021
Only two of the sixteen persons on the Veteran’s Committee were former sportswriters.
Arte Moreno, Dave St. Peter, Derrick Hall, Ken Williams, Kim Ng, Theo Epstein, Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle, La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star Tribune, Steve Hirdt, Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell.
Epstein and Ng seem young to be “Veteran’s”.
I have no complaint with the decisions made.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Committee of veterans or veterinarians, explains why Crime Dog got in. Animal lovers.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Theo himself was on the committee.
Dumpster Divin Theo
I was. Hey! I was! Maybe I’ll find another crappy grindy player in the budgie bin. Like Ryan Theriot or Nicky Madrigal.
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Slammin Sammy in the Hall yet I forgot??
Dumpster Divin Theo
That’s one vote for each finger wag by Raffy while testifying under oath
ThonolansGhost
Hell no, let’s keep the PED guys out. Belle doesn’t belong in the HOF, either. Schilling does belong in there, even though he’s a jackass.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Next thing you know they’re gonna start banning Astro players from cheating on the World Series. Oh wait. What’s this you say?
BeansforJesus
Albert Belle shouldn’t even be in the discussion for HOF unless he played his whole career as a DH. He was a dog dump in the field. If he was a DH he would have a case because he definitely could have had a longer career and would have outperformed David Ortiz.
But, he was a jerk so he didnt do himself any favors. Also he definitely did roids.
Dumpster Divin Theo
What’s with this obsession. Did Albert hit you with his Lincoln Continental on Halloween? Oh wait. Are you that kid with the eggs and marshmallows?
terrymesmer
Moron.
websoulsurfer
They are not sportswriters. Half are HOF members. The rest are baseball executives and veteran sportswriters.
The players that are in the HOF dislike the PED cheaters more than the BBWAA members did.
Albert Belle had a 40.1 career WAR while an average HOF LF had a 65.2 career WAR. His 7 peak years he had a 36 WAR while HOF LF had 7-year peak of 41.6 WAR. He rightfully didn’t get in.
Jaysfansince92
Belle did get caught with a corked bat though. Makes you wonder if he broke any other rules.
Phi149
They weren’t sportswriters. It’s a committee composed of baseball executives and hall of famers. They were voted on by their peers and were found lacking. End of story.
TheDogDays
Sportswriters?
Typical, you don’t realize MVP voting is done before the postseason and now you don’t even know who votes on this committee.
outinleftfield
Only 2 sportswriters were on the ERA Committee. It was mostly players and they hate Bonds, Clemens, etc…
Attystephenadams
Congratulations to the Crime Dog! Well deserved!
Balk
No surprise there.
baseballpun
Deserved
vibratingmukas
Congrats Crime Dog!
John Smoke
The crime dog
fairyland
I had a feeling it would be McGriff only. I don’t think Mattingly has enough friends on the board to get him in. Murphy too. The rest has little of no chance for obvious reasons.
jjd002
Mattingly doesn’t deserve it. Put him on the Rangers of the same era and he is never part of this vote, and likely off the original ballot after a few years.
Chris G.
Yeah, I have Mattingly ranked as the 8th best player on that ballot. Hernández deserves it much more than he does.
TheDogDays
Should probably specify more deserving vs “better”.
Mattingly isn’t getting in based on injuries which is understandable. But not indicative of how good he was. Hernandez isn’t on the same planet as player.
schellis 2
Can’t vote for what might have been. Injuries killed any chance mattingly had. I agree hernandez better career mattingly much better peak though.
jaytibbs
It scares me that Mattingly was only 1 vote away from getting elected. I don’t like these small committees being given the chance to elect people to the Hall. All Mattingly needed was 1 friend with a vote to be in.
fivepoundbass
@jay I believe they needed 12 votes. Nobody else was really close
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Mattingly got 8 votes and needed 12 votes, thus he needed 50% more votes than he got to qualify for admission.
People like to say he was the best player during the short six year stretch of 1984 to 1989 but his WAR for those six years was 33 whereas for Boggs during those same six years it was 40.5. Overall, Boggs has 91.4 WAR and Mattingly 42.4. Boggs had 3010 hits and Mattingly had 2153. Boggs had 1513 runs and Mattingly 1003 runs. Boggs got on base 41.5%, Mattingly 35.8%.
Matting sure wasn’t going to make the Hall as a manager. The issue is that Mattingly was a very likeable guy playing for a very prominent team. Plus, Mattingly gets sympathy because injuries shortened his career. (See David Wright, Nomar Garciaparra, Juan Gonzalez) Mattingly deserves to be in the Yankees’ Hall of Fame just like Orel Hershiser belongs in the Dodgers Hall of Fame. A true icon for the particular team.
drewnats33
Mattingly was four votes short. Players needed 12/16.
TheDogDays
Mattingly has about 80 more total bases in three less seasons…..
Not even a comparison
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Very awesome and overdue! Congrats Crime Dog you’re an immortal!
Dumpster Divin Theo
Crimedog is an immortal. While Schilling and the steroid boys are immorals. Funny, just one letter off from HOF.
This one belongs to the Reds
Congrats, Fred! Long overdue!
T8Rcheese1
Congrats, much deserved!
Stevil
Long overdue!!
SODOMOJO
CRIME DAWG. I remember first watching him on TBS with the Braves. Consistency matters!
Bostonsportsforlife
Thank you Tom Emanski, for finally getting Fred into the Hall
kozy21
Yeah Crime Dog!
Yankee Clipper
A little surprised he was the only player, but I’m glad they finally made the choice to rectify Crime Dog’s status. Well deserved.
billybilly
Congrats Freddie! As a life long Braves fan I will never forget the you’re debut in Atlanta. You set the stadium on fire!! Well, not you personally..haha
Balzenuf
burning it up, wasn’t he? Disappointed, though, that Dale Murphy didn’t make the cut…
User 3044878754
Albert Belle is deserving.
It’s too bad such a media bias exists against him
sg131517
Cheating is cheating. Whether it’s a corked bat, gambling on the sport or taking PEDs. If you feel Belle should be in the HOF then Bonds, Rose et al should be in there as well.
Holy Cow!
Only two media members on the panel.
TheDogDays
The media being guys like Ryne Sandberg and Greg Maddux?
Mikenmn
Congratulations. Maybe not quite what I think might be an HOF career, but certainly a high quality player who carried himself well.
jixter33
A wrong finally corrected! Congrats to the Crime Dog
Dumpster Divin Theo
You can say that again
jixter33
A wrong finally corrected! Congrats to the Crime Dog.
Sunday Lasagna
1995 WS Champion Braves now had 5 Hall of Famers.
brandons-3
Six if you count John Scherholz … I’d guess one day seven. As defensive metrics become more refined and increasing popular, I think Andruw will eventually get in on the Veteran’s Committee. Doesn’t have a shot on the BBWAA ballot though.
partyatnapolis
long overdue. congrats crime dog
getrealgone2
Hell yeah! Good on the Dog!
66TheNumberOfTheBest
They finally got one right.
Good job (this time, on this one) HOF.
njmlins
good, happy for the crime dog! Long overdue.
philliesfan215
Very well deserved
DarkSide830
Well deserved, and I think those full results show us just how Bonds’s and Clemens’s peers think of them (also Schilling, but that’s a little less surprising).
fivepoundbass
Only 6 of their peers on the panel. I’d be interested in seeing who got votes from whom, but I haven’t been able to find it
outinleftfield
Wasn’t it 8 players, 6 execs, and 2 sportswriters?
tuna411
@dark … what are you implying specifically about schilling?
Fg-3
Well deserved… consistently a good player that was never dominant. But much better than Baines and Trammel. But Shilling and Mattingly were hosed.
NashvilleJeff
@Fg-3: Agree, but so was Murphy.
Quentin
Mattingly was not hosed. His most similar batter, according to Baseball Reference, is Cecil Cooper. Out of the top 10 similar batters to Mattingly, only Puckett and Oliva are HOFers. He is in no way a Hall of Famer.
Fg-3
No no way… he was the face of baseball and the best hitter in the game for 3-4 year and had injuries. He was the best hitter and a 9 time GG winner and did it in NY for a crap team. My friend learn the game
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Mattingly was similar to Will Clark and Keith Hernandez.
Quentin
Mattingly was Mark Grace with 50+ more HRs and 200 less hits. And injuries means he didn’t play, therefore his numbers qualify him for the Hall of the Very Good. Looks like you needed a new TV back then because the one you were using lied to you.
schellis 2
Drop mattingly in Cincinnati and I doubt he’d get enough to stay on ballot. Barry Larkin was better then jeter but injuries and playing in Cincinnati hid that. Mattingly lost a normal decline. Six years very good to elite the rest a weak hitting middle infielder.
You can’t credit what might have been with a good back
websoulsurfer
ooooooo best for 3-4 years!! So at least 100 other guys that were great for a very short time should be in too?
Mattingly was not even the beet 1B of his era. It takes a dominant stretch of 7-10 years to be considered for the HOF and he did not have that.
Yankee Clipper
Quentin: Although I understand your point, if you watch Brian Kenny’s argument on why Mattingly deserves to be in the Hall it may alter your perspective on this issue.
Mattingly was just as dominant, if not more, than many HOFer for about 8 seasons, by the numbers. Plus, he was the best player in baseball for 6-year stretch. He was Tony Gwynn with top-end power, essentially. Moreover, his defense at first base was second to none.
websoulsurfer
No he wasn’t. Mattingly played for the Yankees and that is the only reason some people considered him. If he played for any other team he would not be in the conversation.
His 7-year peak of 35.8 WAR was 15% below HOF caliber. Over his career he is 35% short of what would be needed. That is a huge number.
IF he was 2-3% under, maybe even 5%, then you might have an argument. As it is, Mattingly is not close. Injuries robbed him of what might have been a HOF career.
TheDogDays
I realize this is done by baseball reference but it’s laughable to use a 7 yr average to further one’s narrative.
I’ll take a guy who was a dominant 5-6 year player over a guy that’s average for 20 years any day.
Yankee Clipper
I understand your argument but what makes WAR the sole determining criteria for whether he was as good as other players in his era?
He got dinged repeatedly on his defense at 1B, and everyone (players, fans, coaches, managers) will tell you Mattingly was one of the best defensive 1Bman to play the game. His offense was so prodigious that few were even comparable, regardless of position, during his prime.
Again, I’d suggest watching Brian Kenny’s statistical argument for Mattingly being in the HOF. It’s more robust than simply citing WAR.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
If the Yankees had never traded McGriff, there’s no doubt he might have hit 70+ HR at Yankee Stadium. His power was that good.
fivepoundbass
I don’t really like the “this guy got in, so this guy should too” arguments…but I think Puckett and Mattingly had very similar careers. I was surprised at the time that Puckett breezed in like he did.
jjd002
Schilling was hosed, Mattingly was not.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Here is a link for video with Schilling talking about Kanye West. Too hard to make this stuff up.
youtube.com/watch?v=dkBEfqcnt6o
TheDogDays
Not to make this political but if Schilling made negative comments about Trump like he did about the media, he would have been in easily.
No, I’m not a Trump supporter.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Republican Congressman and later senator Jim Bunning was elected to the HOF.
It is not that Schilling is a conservative or even a Trump supporter, it is that he has attacked blacks, Muslims, gay people and transgender persons. Schilling incites bigotry. He makes Donald Sterling seem like a feeble old man who got confused.
The liberals have their own problems, but not too many are racists and homophobes in public. Robert Byrd, ok. Torii Hunter, just not the same as Schilling.
Paul O’Neill, Johnny Damon, Tom Brady, Lou Holtz and Bobby Knight do not spew the bigotry that Schilling does. All endorsed Trump.
(No, I am not a Trump supporter.)
TheDogDays
Cmon , this is a different time than when Bunning got elected.
None of those people are as outspoken as Schilling has, not a good comparison.
The media today (on both sides) are completely intolerant of the other. To pretend these people just look past this is just not dealing with reality.
I’m not advocating what Schilling said.
TheDogDays
Kobe Bryant hurled a homophobic slur at a homosexual referee and he’s considered a hero.
TheDogDays
In 2022, the media and some people are simply “offended” by things they disagree with and hide behind labels and use this to disparage someone.
There are people on here who think steroid users should be in (guys who cheated the game) and not someone that simply said some stupid things on Twitter.
.
Donnie Baseball missed it by 4 votes
Kruk's Beer League
Congrats to Crime Dog! Well past time. Schilling should have been joining you. Hopefully they can get Whitaker in soon.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
16 years late. Better late than never and at least he wasn’t voted in after he passed on. McGriff like Lee Smith should’ve been voted in their first year of eligibility. Lee Smith at the time of his retirement was the all time saves leader. Don’t know how that fact alone doesn’t get the nod to get elected. Fred McGriff 493 homeruns. Nearly 2500 hits and over 1500RBI. again all numbers that were good enough to be a first ballot HOFer
misterb71
Add in the fact that I never read a negative story about him or heard anybody have a bad word about the Crime Dog. Great numbers and a great guy — what was the delay for?!?
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Unfortunately we’ll never know. I heard for years Mike Schmidt kept Ron Santo out of the HOF. After he passed away he was finally voted in.
It’s ashame some writers are able to determine whether or not a player is voted into the HOF. Look at Ken Griffey Jr. He got 99.3% of the vote. Who the hell didn’t vote for him?
rememberthecoop
I think he was a victim of being part of the steroid Era. I know he was never associated with being a user, but he was being compared to crazy numbers generated by artificially inflated humans. Guys like Bonds and Sosa made home run numbers look meaningless.
fivepoundbass
Agree with coop. The numbers didn’t stand up to the PED guys, and some argue that you shouldn’t assume that anyone was NOT on PEDs. Tough hill to climb
fre5hwind
YAY
Manfred’s playing with the balls
Good for crime dog but put Schilling and the steroid guys in next.
It’s the baseball hall of fame not boy scouts hall of fame.
BeansforJesus
Wales? No longer support the UK? Good on ya!
Free Scotland!
rememberthecoop
It’s silly not to let the steroid guys in. Heck, there are already PED users in the HofF. So why not? If you have to put them in a special wing…or my idea, which is to put their name but no picture on the plaque. But they belong. Pitchers did roids too.
Halo11Fan
It’s silly not to enshrine cheaters? Go look up the word enshrine. What silly is you think these thieves deserve to be enshrined
barryr
They enshrined Gaylord Perry who wrote a book about how he cheated.
implant
@remember Who are the PED users presently in the HOF?
Halo11Fan
In the expansion era, Fred McGriiff ranks 21st in fWAR for first baseman, Bobby Grich ranks 3rd for seconbaseman. I wonder why som3 players are darlings while others are completely ignored. Lou Whitaker is 4th.
DisplacedSTLfan
Lou deserves the nod, too.
Halo11Fan
Displaced… no question. Lou deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Lou Whitaker should be in the hall of splitting his pants and straining his hamstring dancing
warnbeeb
Sweet Lou is a HOF’er
Dumpster Divin Theo
Booby Grich is a poor man’s Belanger
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
I love boobies, they should be in the HOF, without a vote…
juanc-2
Hehe, “Booby”
Halo11Fan
Bobby Grich led the league in HRs, slugging and OPS+ one year. His lifetime OPS+ was 125, And he was one of the best defensive second baseman in history.
Your comment is truly, imbecilic.
jjd002
Same with the weird love affair with Mattingly. He’s 60th at 1B fWAR and people thing he got hosed.
Halo11Fan
JJ, I agree with that.
PaysonTim
It’s because he was a New York Yankee. I know that I’m not the only person here who has said that but it’s worth saying again.
TheDogDays
Well yeah. Usually when a player is extremely good for a period of time, their fans have a “weird love” for that player.
geg42
Keith Hernandez & Will Clark better JAWS numbers than McGriff
Halo11Fan
Keith Hernandez deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Dumpster Divin Theo
And Walt Frazier too
66TheNumberOfTheBest
“Let cheaters into the HOF!!! I have no morals and I don’t care about ethics or rules!!!”
Manfred’s playing with the balls
Imagine thinking everyone should be forced to our individual code of ethics and morals.
Some of us don’t take a game so seriously
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Oh, are US steroid laws and sports rule books simply MY individual code….?
What a pathetic attempt this at hand waving away the inconvenient this was.
rememberthecoop
It’s not about ignoring cheaters, it’s more about being consistent. There are already guys like I-Rod, and Piazza…Bagwell…Big Papu – so to leave guys out because we suspect them. Look, we all know Bonds did them yet technically he was never busted. So how is he any different than a guy like Papi, who actually WERE caught! Cmon, it’s silly.
KnightOfNi
Having I-Rod, Piazz, Bagwell and F’in Papi in there infuriates me. Same when Pujols and Cabrera get in… they’re juicers to the core.
Assdribble_Cabrera
To say Miggy was a steroid user is malicious, libelous, and irresponsible. Not once ever has there ever been hint, story, or suggestion of steroid use past or present. The dude was probably one of the best right handed hitters this game has ever seen and understands the art of hitting on the level of Ted Williams. You don’t know what you are talking about and comment is flat out B.S.
websoulsurfer
Ortiz got better after testing for PED started. Better. And because he was in the survey testing, he had to be tested 10 times per season. That is all you need to know about him.
Piazza? Not even a rumor while he was playing. His performance peaked at 30 and dropped off after that. There was never a huge increase in performance like Bonds. A maybe, but not a strong one.
Bags? I wouldn’t doubt it. You are the company you keep, and his company was all roiders. His performance took two huge jumps up in 1994 and then again in 1997. If I had to guess, I would guess he was juicing. I have personal stories, but they are not concrete evidence.
Ivan Rodriguez? No clue. He was so talented that he started playing in the majors at 19 as a catcher? Can you name any others like that? He never had the huge increases or drop offs in performance that guys like Bonds did and his performance declined starting at age 29 and beeefore testing started. Canseco says he did, so maybe but not likely.
TheDogDays
Piazza ? Huh?
Halo11Fan
Remember. Ortiz’s test should have never been made public. I disagree with that, he’s still a cheater…. There was no proof for IRod, Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell. I would not have voted for them, but spineless writers voted for them with good conscience.
Bonds, Clemens and Palmerio committed perjury. I guess for the spineless, that was a bridge too far.
jjd002
Got some proof of Bagwell? Or was it just because he was strong?
Halo11Fan
If I can’t out sources, it’s wise not to take strangers for their word. But I do know things, so they influence my opinion but they shouldn’t influence yours.
jjd002
So you are just assuming Bagwell was on them because he was strong? Wouldn’t shock me, as I’d venture to say 90% of the league was doing something during his time (including many nobody would think were doing anything). He was just good and strong so he gets unfairly put in the juicer category, while someone like Griffey gets no suspicion.
luckyh
He blew up. It’s like pornography. You know it when you see it. Not saying he shouldn’t get in because of it. Just that I think he was.
websoulsurfer
Imagine thinking that HOF voters should not be bound by the rules of HOF voting.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
I called out the HOF voters the WHOLE time. Even guys I respected like Ken Rosenthal. They played a shell game…
They put in guys who everyone knew used steroids but had less smoke than the others THEN turned around and used the inclusion for the cheaters they already put in as an argument for the bigger name cheaters to be included.
Take all of them out and toss the plaques in the garbage.
Problem solved.
Bring back the players to give somber speeches about accountability in a ceremony before you toss the plaques in the garbage and put it on MLB Network.
Problem solved.
jdgoat
It’s just foolish to me to ban them when probably at least 80% of players in the game are on them or were on them.
Halo11Fan
Bonds the thief stole from all baseball fans who did not get to enjoy the Judge HR record. That thief does not belong in the Hall.
Last year would have been monumental for millions of baseball fans but that thief stole the memories. You want to honor him?
jdgoat
I don’t really care about that because I’m not of the belief that steroids are out of modern sports
Poster formerly known as . . .
“I don’t believe people of low morals belong in the HOF!!! I don’t care if it’s already full of notorious cheaters, wife-beaters, philanderers, racists, speed eaters, druggies, gamblers and drunks!!! Don’t try to confuse me with the facts!!!”
Poster formerly known as . . .
nytimes.com/2013/01/09/sports/baseball/baseball-ha…
phantomofdb
No bonds after letting Ortiz in means the Hall is OFFICIALLY useless
Berkner
Pretty sure the Hall officially became useless after Harold Baines was inducted.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Yeah wassup w Big Syringee
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
There have been countless random guys who got in and ruined it. This didn’t just happen with that cheater Ortiz.
rememberthecoop
Oh but he was so good to the media and MLB featured him in so much of its advertising…so they look the other way. Yet there are people in this comment section saying WE GOTTA LEAVE THE CHEATERS OUT!! Hey, the barn door is open and the horses have left…it’s too late. Not to mention all the guys that did amphetamines, which definitely were perfomance-enhancing!
TheDogDays
Big difference between Ortiz and Bonds…. Ortiz was nice to the media. That’s biggest priority to sportswriters.
PutPeteinthehall
Guess he goes in as a Brave. Congrats it’s deserved.
To the guy that says Belle deserved to be voted in too – a corked bat kinda kills the deal. Jason Grimsley crawled thru the ceiling to retrieve the corked bat. A former Indians employee worked with me for awhile and told me about this. Yes I know it’s been published however a guy that was there at the time would know. In 2002 Sammy Sosa had a corked bat explode during a game too. Kind of puts a damper on HOF voting. Lol.
gppm
Very well-deserved. It is about time. As a Jays fan, he was one of my all-time favourites.
TigerFanFromIndiana
About time…he should have been in long ago.
Jose Galvan
Mattingly should have been elected too. Even though his offense numbers aren’t there due to lessons, his amount number of gold gloves put him there….Definitely top 5 best defense 1st basement ever. Also, when healthy was the best player in baseball for at least 3 years.
jjd002
He absolutely should not have been. Only reason he’s on here is because the team he played for. Injuries happen all the time. Gold gloves pre-2015 are useless. The worst defensive SS of all time has multiple (due to him being a good hitter and popular).
TheDogDays
Seriously? you can say Mattingly doesn’t deserve HOF based on length of career, fine.
But if you’re insinuating he wasn’t worthy of Gold Gloves, you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.
How does the team he play for put him in THIS discussion? I’m interested to hear another meaningless conspiracy theory.
grandsalametime
I’m happy for McGriff, but less happy about Bonds and Clemens, who should be in. It’s interesting that Schilling got as many votes as he did and the others less.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Chipper Jones was replaced by Mel Hall?
KnightOfNi
Darryl Hall… or was it Monty Hall? 😀
User 2079935927
Everyone is saying the samwthing. Can’t we just up vote the first one who said it?
misterb71
WOW! The peers of Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro and Belle clearly told us what they thought of them. No mistaking that message.
aragon
and the writers voted the guy with the most enlarged head in last year. hall of fame is nothing but a popularity contest like a mrs. america.
mattmooney33
My favorite baseball player in the 90’s Albert Belle should have made it in. I know his career was cut short and he acted like a dick at times, but he was a hitting machine!
Jake1972
Congrats and very much deserving!
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
This is the hall of above average and has been for a while now. Bonds, Schilling, and Clemens have to be in. There is no way Ty Cobb can get away with beating up an umpire and a black groundskeeper, while pitchers used illegal substances, and these guys are “ineligible” for moral reasons or PED stuff.
Sunday Lasagna
@DeGrom Texas Ranger, there have been 20,272 MLB players all time and only 269 of them are in the Hall of Fame. That is just 1.3% !! The Hall of Famers give and take an argument over guys at the threshold, were considered better than 98.7% of the those fortunate enough to play the game. How in any thought process could such a small handful of the elite of the elite somehow turn into the hall of above average. Last time i checked, getting a score of 98.7 or better on a test was not just “above average”, it’s top notch.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Bias plays an enormous role in this. East coast bias is why Oritz is in over Bonds, how Scherzer is idolized and Kershaw is trashed, and why most Yankees players are greatly overrated. Speaking of percentiles, I have also scored a 99th percentile on the SAT. It says a lot more about the 99 percentile who somehow managed to do worse, not the other way around. I’m a glass half-empty guy.
Sunday Lasagna
@DeGrom Texas Ranger…well, your bias comment just doesnt make sense when you look at who is in the BBWAA. The writers are spread out all over the nation. Ortiz over Bonds, assumption (probably true, but assumption) on Ortiz, proof on Bonds, Scherzer idolized, Kershaw trashed,…I’m not even sure this is a true statement, but if it is, it’s pure jealously, Kershaw is the best pitcher of this era, and Yankees overrated? well, that’s debatable too. The list of BBWAA writers is below, Ortiz did not get in because of an east coast bias unless you are saying that the beat and national writers not from the east coast favor the east coast, which really doesnt make sense.
Name Affiliation
Team(s) covered Job description
Peter Abraham The Boston Globe Red Sox Beat writer
Jim Alexander Riverside Press Enterprise Angels, Dodgers, Padres Columnist
Alfredo Alvarez Con Las Bases Llenas All National writer
Michael Axisa CBS Sports All National writer
Ted Berg At large All National writer
Rob Biertempfel The Athletic Pirates Beat writer
Barry M. Bloom Forbes All Columnist
Rhett Bollinger MLB.com Angels Beat writer
Grant Brisbee The Athletic Giants Columnist
Maury Brown Forbes All National writer
Zach Buchanan The Athletic Diamondbacks Beat writer
Steve Buckley The Athletic Red Sox Columnist
Yordano Carmona Pelota Cubana USA All National writer
Anthony Castrovince MLB.com All Columnist
Roberto Colon El Nuevo Dia / Unanimo Deportes All National writer
Tony DeMarco FanRagSports.com All National writer
Yusseff Diaz Pelota Cubana USA All National writer
Lou DiPietro YES Network Yankees Beat writer
Evan Drellich The Athletic All National writer
Bob Dutton At large Mariners Beat writer
Bob Elliott Canadian Baseball Network All, Blue Jays National writer
Ryan Fagan Sporting News All National Writer
Jeff Fletcher Orange County Register Angels Beat writer
Jason Foster The Sporting News All Editor
Matt Gelb The Athletic Phillies Beat writer
Kyle Glaser Baseball America All National writer
Javier Gonzalez Pelota Cubana USA Astros Beat writer
Evan Grant Dallas Morning News Rangers Beat writer
Mike Harrington Buffalo News Blue Jays Columnist
Dan Hayes The Athletic Twins Beat writer
Lynn Henning Detroit News Tigers Backup
J.P. Hoornstra Southern California News Group Dodgers Beat writer
Jay Jaffe Sports Illustrated All Columnist
Tyler Kepner New York Times All National writer
Byron Kerr MLB.com, The City Paper Orioles, Nationals, All National writer
Dejan Kovacevic DKPittsburghSports.com Pirates Columnist
Leonte Landino ESPN Deportes All Editor
Scott Lauber Philadelphia Inquirer Phillies Beat writer
David Laurila FanGraphs All Columnist
Zack Meisel The Athletic Indians Beat writer
Randy Miller Newark Star-Ledger Yankees Beat writer
Ricardo Montes ESPN Deportes Miami Marlins Columnist
LaVelle E. Neal III Minneapolis Star Tribune Twins Beat writer
Mark Newman At large All Editor
Jorge L. Ortiz USA TODAY All National writer
Jeff Passan ESPN All National writer
Mike Petriello MLB.com All Analyst
Nick Piecoro The Arizona Republic Diamondbacks Beat writer
Bill Plunkett Orange County Register Dodgers Beat writer
Raul Ramos Con Las Bases Llenas All National writer
Francys Romero Beisbol FR All National writer
C. Trent Rosecrans The Athletic Reds Beat writer
Bill Shaikin Los Angeles Times All National writer
Mark Sheldon MLB.com Reds Beat writer
Matt Snyder CBS Sports All National writer
Clark Spencer Miami Herald Marlins Beat writer
Eric Stephen SB Nation All National writer
Paul Sullivan Chicago Tribune Cubs, White Sox Beat writer
Dan Szymborski ESPN.com All Columnist
Marc Topkin Tampa Bay Times Rays Beat writer
Andrew Wagner Wisconsin State Journal Brewers Beat writer
Mark Zuckerman MASNsports.com Nationals Beat writer
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
That is a well-researched list.
However, I have to say many of those in your list are all MLB guys who who would tend to lean the way of general biases. The Yankees bias is obvious. CC Sabathia vs Doc Halladay, Felix Hernandez, Mark Buehrle, Jared Weaver, Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and Jake Peavy (triple crown winner and multiple Cy Youngs) – look at media hype and coverage, as well as rankings. The fact that you can’t easily prove that guys get more attention makes it impossible to definitively say who gets more attention. However, I am sure many will agree after looking as similar stats that they disproportionately see more East Coast guys and particularly Yankees’ guys get idolized. Look at Derek Jeter and Rivera vs superior guys at their position.
TheDogDays
I love conspiracy theories with no factual evidence.
For example , Ortiz over Bonds must be east coast bias! It couldn’t possibly be based on how each treated the media or any other factor.
TheDogDays
Wait, who were the superior guys to Rivera at his position??!! That crazy overhype of Mariano lol
I can also come up with several Yankees who could have easily won awards that didn’t.
slider32
McGriff was the 8th best player on the list, good ole boys club wins again!
DarkSide830
LOL what?
brewsingblue82
I’m with you. That’s a head scratcher. Not only because of the fact that McGriff had the talent to be in there to begin with before now, but the fact that the only ones “above” him all come with question marks and controversy.
Bonds, without steroids, would’ve likely gotten in. He was a skilled athlete who made the wrong decision, and his HOF chances will take a hit because of it. Same with Clemens.
But if all the people free of controversy, McGriff was clearly the right choice. And it’s well deserved and long overdue.
Fred McGriff HR
Magnificent news and well deserved.
cards667
Mattingly was better than McGriff and has better numbers. McGriff just had a longer career because Mattingly retired at a younger age to try to clean his wife up (allegedly)
Halo11Fan
Mattingly, like Murphy was great for a relatively short time. They were not better than McGriff.
DarkSide830
The difference though is Murphy played a lot more outside of his peak, and it’s not like he was horrible in said seasons.
jjd002
Well, part of being a hall of fame is extended dominance. Mattingly has no business being in the Hall.
Yankee Clipper
“Well, part of being a hall of fame is extended dominance”
This is part of the problem with the premise of anyone’s argument for or against…. What exactly is an “extended dominance?” I assume it’s different for everyone. Then there’s gradations of dominance within that time frame too, all of which brings us back to stats, which are inherently debatable when they differ. It becomes a slippery slope pretty quickly.
outinleftfield
One of those criteria for extended dominance is 7 year peak. Mattingly is not good enough on that measure. Obviously career numbers matter and Mattingly falls far short of HOF numbers. He also was not the best 1B of his day. 3 strikes and you are out.
TheDogDays
Who was the best first baseman of his day? I must be forgetting someone
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Dick Allen is a HOFer.
cards667
Guess I should have clarified, I don’t think Mattingly or McGriff belong in the HoF, but I think Mattingly was the better player.
cpdpoet
Wow, only 6 for Murphy…..is this his death knell……?
Not to be a Debbie Downer…..Kudos to McGriff for sure….
soxshortstop
Disappointing…. On several fronts.
juanc-2
Please elaborate…
titanic struggle
very happy to hear this, it’s well deserved! I still think Muphy and Matt’s belong in there as well…
metvibes
Happy for him, real good ball player.
impapad17
Totally agree with Fred McGriff getting in. Still baffled that Lou Whitaker is not in yet. Sad.
A'sfaninUK
Mattingly should never be allowed to sniff the HOF, he’s so many tiers below the rest of this list. Bonds+Clemens not being in the HOF is stupid as hell and the writers are all loser cowards. PEDs arent even as bad as what the Astros did.
hit23man
Your take is garbage. Why are you hating on the greatest defensive 1B in MLB history who was the best player in the game for 6 seasons? He is without a doubt a HOFer, and you can keep those cheaters out.
bravesnation nc
About Damn time the “Crime Dog” got in! 100% of the vote. For all they haters that it leaned heavy on Braves Chipper was sick and someone else filled in for him. Now just need to get Murphy in.
nottinghamforest13
Kim Ng did one useful thing this off-season.
impapad17
Totally agree with Fred McGriff getting in. Totally baffled that Lou Whitaker has not been voted in yet. Sad.
Fg-3
If you put Bonds in then Palmiero then Clemens.. you have to put Sheffield and Sosa and McGuire in too. What’s the common denominator?? All cheaters put Giambi and Caminiti in there too. I understand that they didn’t use all the time. But who’s next Canceco? He should be in for outing all those guys.
Will Altuve or Correa get in? We will see. Arod?? The greatest statistical SS ever? Nope not in my book. They were all entertaining but so is the WWE
jjd002
Altuve didn’t cheat.
Fg-3
Sure he didn’t
bhambrave
Even IF Altuve didn’t cheat (questionable), he didn’t stop it, and he benefitted from it. He probably wouldn’t have the MVP without his cheating teammates.
luckyh
Now you have to stop cheating to get in? Wow.
nottinghamforest13
Has someone made the argument that Caminiti has HoF calibre numbers?
DTD/ATL1313
About dang time. Let’s be honest, if he had hit 7 more homers to get to that 500 plateau, he would’ve been in long ago.
Poster formerly known as . . .
The hypocrites at the BBWAA, doing their thing. Even Jeff Novitzky, the IRS agent who sifted through BALCO’s trash to try to nail Bonds, said that both Bonds and Clemens belong in the Hall of Fame:
nytimes.com/2021/12/30/opinion/hall-of-fame.html?s…
Keeping Bonds out is absurd. It’s the Hall of FAME. Bonds isn’t famous? You can realistically tell the story of baseball in the U.S. without mentioning Bonds?
It’s a museum, and the phonies act like it’s a church. Meanwhile a reprobate like Ty Cobb was in the Hall’s inaugural class. You probably couldn’t count on all your fingers and toes all the HOF players who used amphetamines, but look away, you intrepid reporters.
Even if you eliminate all of Bonds’ years as a Giant, he already had HOF numbers as a Pirate. More to the point, he was playing against juicing pitchers. The juicing was rampant, and Selig and Donald Fehr turned a blind eye to it.
But the frauds in the BBWAA want to pretend they weren’t gushing over the home runs into McCovey Cove, and Selig didn’t congratulate Bonds on the Jumbotron when he set the record, and Bud didn’t institute a new award, The Commissioner’s Historic Achievement Award, and give the first one to — wait for it — Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. And who’d he give the sixth award to? Yup — Barry Bonds.
“I’m shocked — shocked! — to find that juicing is going on in here!”
It is to laugh.
Brad Scott
@Fink Ployed: You say “Even if you eliminate all of Bonds’ years as a Giant, he already had HOF numbers as a Pirate.” Yes, Bonds belongs in the HOF, but he wouldn’t qualify with just his seven Pirates seasons. Add in his first six with the Giants (all steroid-free), and the Bonds HOF case is solid.
Poster formerly known as . . .
Bonds had a 147 OPS+ as a Pirate, the same as Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Jim Thome and Sam Thompson, all of them Hall of Famers.
He had a 50.3 bWAR as a Pirate, same as Ted Simmons, Hall of Famer, and higher than Orlando Cepeda, Turkey Stearns, Mickey Cochrane, Dave Bancroft, Nellie Fox, Oscar Charleston, Ralph Kiner, Buck Ewing, and 52 other position players in the Hall.
Poster formerly known as . . .
P.S.
Bonds’ OPS with the Pirates was higher than the OPS of over 100 Hall of Famers.
BTW, there might be more, but Baseball Reference only lists the top 999 in that statistical category.
Joeypower
Since he played for like 10 teams what team is he going in with?
Berkner
The Braves since he got his ring and made most of his All-Star appearances with them.
outinleftfield
The HOF decides. Probably the Braves,
A'sfaninUK
The HOF is a fraud until every last one of these players is in it:
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Curt Schilling
Alex Rodriguez
Lou Whitaker
Kevin Brown
Bobby Grich
Dick Allen
Scott Rolen
Carlos Beltran
Andruw Jones
Manny Ramirez
Reggie Smith
Dwight Evans
Graig Nettles
Jim Edmonds
Kenny Lofton
Gary Sheffield
Willie Randolph
Buddy Bell
Chase Utley
Darrell Evans
Sammy Sosa
Bobby Abreu
Robinson Cano
Jeff Kent
Tommy John
Rick Reuschel
Andy Pettitte
Frank Tanana
David Wells
Dwight Gooden
Billy Wagner
Doug Jones
(Dont argue any of these, but please feel free to add. Don Mattingly does not belong, so keep his tier of player out of this).
DarkSide830
“Don’t argue any of these” lol, what a real accepting diacussion environment you’ve fostered here.
positively_broad_st
(Can we argue why you are using multiple accounts in the same discussion thread? Or even why you have multiple accounts for this site?)
A'sfaninUK
@positively_broad_st I only have 1 account on this site, get a life
positively_broad_st
Riiiight…A’sfaninWales isn’t you. Someone else wants to emulate you of all people. It’s just a coincidence that they have the same narrative and teenage attitude as you…
hit23man
Don Mattingly was a better player than 90% of those listed
Fg-3
1/2 that list is a complete joke.. Tanana?
Wells? Abreu? Buddy Bell? Darrell Evans?
Kenny Lofton?
The hall of decent players
You must be high! And also clueless on the game
ThonolansGhost
Darrell Evans, Buddy Bell and Kenny Lofton do belong in the HOF. Maybe you’re the clueless one.
Fg-3
Sure I’m Detroit Cleveland and Texas
But can’t sniff Cooperstown
A'sfaninUK
@Fg-3 your baseball knowledge is dumpster-tier. I hope you watch a game sometime. Your standards are idiotically high. I bet youre fun at parties!
Sunday Lasagna
@A’sfaninUK, no Luis Tiant? El Tiante? He should go in on his windup alone let alone his 66 WAR.
A'sfaninUK
@Wampum – great catch/add!
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Al Oliver? Great hitter. Played a long time. Better than any number of current HOF outfielders.
nottinghamforest13
“Don’t argue with my list. The list is absurd so there’s no point in doing so.”
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
Alright glad to see one of the good all time dudes make it. Scott Rolen should be next followed by Wagner.
CravenMoorehead
Congrats to him. Dissapointed to see Mattingly snubbed again but Fred is a worthy selection.
This one belongs to the Reds
If Pete Rose isn’t put in the HOF, none of the steroid boys should be in. I would even go as far as to say they created a greater sin but the owners were complicit as well in covering it up so they were all guilty as hell. Nevertheless, I don’t blame the writers or their peers by keeping them out.
Don’t get me started on the hypocrisy of Bally Sports name being on all the local baseball TV networks. They will sure take their money when it favors MLB, won’t they?
outinleftfield
Read the Dowd Report. If Shoeless Joe isn’t in, Rose won’t ever get in. Deservedly so.
This one belongs to the Reds
That has nothing to do with his performance on the field during his playing days.
He should never manage a team or work in the game of baseball again because of what he did, but that is separate from the HOF as a player.
sweetg
Still a joke Mcgriff was not already in. That is baseball some numbers and some behaviors held against. Others ignored. Betcha! Paul Beeston helped push McGriff.
Catch tha Taste
10 year old me was gutted when the Jay’s traded McGriff. So under-rated in his time. Happy to see the Crimedog recognized for his awesomeness!
phenomenalajs
The Crime Dog definitely deserves it, but I’m going to reiterate that I think it’s a travesty that Keith Hernandez wasn’t a choice on that list. For the break in the time periods at 1980 for “Classic” and “Contemporary” baseball, if a player’s career overlapped both time periods, is he automatically considered a “contemporary” player?
MarlinsFanBase
I am one of the people that feel that Keith Hernandez is a Hall of Famer as well, but he has at least four things working against him as follow:
1) The drug scandal. This is all anyone really needs, but this is one.
2) His destroyed relationship with the highly regarded Whitey Herzog.
3) His strained relationship with the Cardinals. While they forgave him in the long run, it’s still an issue.
4) Not a major thing, but it doesn’t help that Keith is a bit arrogant, and still maintains that 86 Mets arrogance even though time has humbled him slightly. His often stupid Mets arrogance displayed with SNY doesn’t help him in this category either. While Mets fans will bash me for saying this, the reality is that when fans of other teams take issue with this, it’s a factor to his HoF possibility.
Again, I feel Keith should be in, but the above has and, to a certain degree, continues to hurt his chances.
rememberthecoop
He was, without a doubt, the greatest defensive first baseman that I ever saw. And I’ve been in sports media for a long time.
MarlinsFanBase
Yes, he indeed was. That is the lead for him to be in the Hall.
Sadly, as much as you and I and many others agree that he should be in, he is the only reason that he isn’t and may never be getting in…unless posthumously after everything about the man himself is long forgotten, and just his production on the field is looked at.
luckyh
Travesty Schilling isn’t in. Not a guy I want to talk to at a party, but I want him on my team, especially in the post season.
william-2
I have several times and he was the life of them. Funny, warm guy. Literally has given me the coat of his back. I have met a bunch of players in my life, and he was the best I ever had the pleasure to talk too and was lucky enough to do it many times.
rememberthecoop
What were you doing that you received these opportunities, if I may ask?
outinleftfield
Drinking heavily apparently.
hit23man
Mattingly was baseball in the 80’s. Has just as good of numbers at Puckett, was the best fielder at his position of all time (yes, better than cocaine Keith) he 100% should be in the HOF. It’s amazing to me the haters out there crapping on this guy’s career, while other being up Lou Whitaker. Come on. Donnie Baseball belongs in the Hall of Fame, if you don’t think so, you either didn’t watch baseball in the 80’s or are just a plain hater.
bhambrave
Mattingly’s peak was cut short by his back problems. He just didn’t have the longevity that most HOF’ers are expected to have.
rememberthecoop
I couldn’t have said it better. And by the way, calling someone a very close / borderline hall of famer is not exactly “crapping” on a guy.
hit23man
Who says longevity is non-negotiable. I think impact on the game should trump that.
bhambrave
It’s negotiable (Sandy Koufax), but it’s gotta be a no-doubter.
Brad Scott
@hit23man: Yes, Mattingly belongs in the HOF, but the remark about Hernandez is uncalled for. He also belongs in the HOF as much as anyone.
ThonolansGhost
Some of those guys belong in the HOF, some are borderline and many of them don’t belong anywhere near the HOF.
And you forgot Bill Dahlen.
bhambrave
Way to go, Fire Dog!
bhambrave
If stat-worthy players are being kept out for bad character, then borderline stat guys with impeccable character should get a bonus. Elect Dale Murphy.
MarlinsFanBase
Long overdue. Committee corrected the failure of the writers.
giantwarrioras49ersraiders
Yeah he was good in his day but Barry Bonds was the best. I guess steroids let you make great decisions at plate as well. Only once struck out more than 100 times in one year!!! All time Great Barry Bonds!!!!!
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Absolutely on Bonds. Let’s not forget a lot of the pitcher Bonds had to face in that steroid era were juicing too. But you hear more about inflated HR numbers than you do about inflated strikeout numbers.
Bonds is the best all around baseball player ever. The only player who comes even close and would deserve to be in that argument is his godfather, Willie Mays.
Another player slighted all these years is Jeff Kent. Great numbers. Probably would be in if he just played 2B exclusively.
Edp007
Shoulda put them all in.
Braves Butt-Head
Tom Emanski would be proud
Texas Outlaw
Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez for Carter and Alomar is my favorite trade ever.
rickoppelt
This makes my heart happy
MPrck
Shilling being left out again rubs me raw. Years ago men served in the military to protect our rights, and to say he can’t be in the hall is ridiculous. He had “mean tweets”, what a hoot. Just like President Trump, and they probably figured he voted for him too, another mark against him, oh boy. 79.5 war, but he had too many mean tweet’s, what a hoot.
Lou Whitaker is another one who should be in too. Just shy of 10,000 P.A’s. He was healthy, and played great ball. There are a bunch of reasons he should be in, and the longer the wait goes on, shame on baseball. 75.1 WAR, and loved by all the fans in Detroit.
DraytonSawyer
No Murphy, that hurts my inner child.
Rsox
Congrats to the Crime Dog. Well deserved
notnamed
more water leaks into the hall of fame
NoNeckWilliams
Well deserved. Anal-retentive folks are obsessed with round numbers.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
About time for McGriff and shame on the committee for snubbing Schilling. Clemens/Bonds/Palmiero I understand as they were cheats but to snub a guy for politics is insane. The whole committee should be HOF players and I think if it was Schilling would be in.
Gwynning
Rumor has it your screen name had everything to do with the vote, congrats
brewsingblue82
I think the problem is that the way Schilling presents himself to people makes it hard for enough people to ever like him enough to remember to look at his stats before anything else.
It’s one of the stupidest parts of these things, but at the same time, as it’s essentially a popularity contest when it comes to voting, anyone who wants in should probably realize that it is politics that gets you in. Not the government kind, but the way you talk to people. Not saying they have to be a brown noser, but to at least make it so that the first thing that comes to mind when someone discusses you is your actual career, not what you say.
BenBenBen
With Schilling it has a lot to do with his unscrupulous business practices, getting a massive government loan for his gaming business and quickly defaulting on it
Jean Matrac
The ironic thing about Schilling for me is I remember him complaining about all the players using PEDs in the D’backs clubhouse, and now he finds himself not in the HoF with all the suspected steroid users, and with some users already in.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
Wrong Ben Ben. Schilling sunk the majority of his career earnings into that gaming business and lost almost everything.
BenBenBen
Get informed. He lost money but his workers paid for his terrible business’ failure, taking out second mortgages on their homes after his company promised to sell them.
outinleftfield
Only two were sportswriters. Half were HOF players. The rest were execs. So not sure your argument holds water.
With Schilling it was far more than politics that kept him out. Suggesting journalists should bee hung was a big part, no doubt. Character is a voting consideration and he fails that test.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Absolutely political views should not be a criteria. Does anyone think Tom Brady, a conservative and a Trump backer, will be denied induction to Canton because of whom he backed and presumably voted for?
Well, then Schilling belongs in the HOF.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Put him at the heart of any batting order in history, and he takes..Congrats Crime Dog! You deserved it!
Lyman Bostock
Proper he got in. Now it’s time to enshrine Kenny Lofton who had a +16 career WAR to McGriff
register14
thank you, veterans committee…good job, fred mcgriff..deserved a while ago…now, graig nettles needs to get in before scott rolen
stubby66
Finally a mistake is corrected. Now time to make Tommy John a HOF too. Can we also fix the Shoeless Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver misjustice. Time to clear their names. Congratulations Fred Mcgriff
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
“Can we also fix…………”
Were you attempting a pun?
Gwynning
Congrats Crime Dog! Long overdue and well done Vetcom!
los_leebos
So is Paul Konerko the new best player in the Hall of Pretty Good?
JackStrawb
Konerko isn’t even that. 92nd all time, by JAWs, among 1Bmen. That would make Paul about the 1500th-best player in MLB history.
los_leebos
Who has your vote for the best player in the Hall of Pretty Good?
JackStrawb
More dilution. McGriff is a lock for the Hall of the Very Good, but didn’t have the peak of a HOFer.
Abysmal fielder, as well. His contemporaries didn’t think he was particularly great in the era of 1Bmen, either. Never finished top 3 in MVP voting, not even once, and just 4 finishes in the top 9.
Steep decline. After 30 he never had a star season, only once that decade getting even one MVP vote, finishing 20th. with a limp 119 OPS+ over 10 seasons while minus 109 runs on defense compared with an average 1Bman.
16 rWAR in 10 years. That’s not worth even a starting gig, on average—never mind a HOF vote.
brewsingblue82
Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason he didn’t get top 3 MVP votes was because as good as some of his seasons were, he was overshadowed by teammates?
His BEST years were obviously in Atlanta, where not only did he share in a lineup of other players that took some attention away from him, but the pitching staff was so good on those teams, that pitchers from his own team would likely steal MVP attention from him.
1994 when he finished 8th, number 5 on the list was Greg Maddux. Meaning people were to split on who was the MVP, because those Braves teams were so good, that there was a large number of people you could’ve said were the MVP of the team, making it much harder to get votes for just one person.
In 1993, after he was traded from San Diego to atlanta, he hit .310 and raised his season average from .275 with San Diego to .291 overall. He finished 5th in mvp voting that year, and we never will know, but had he been traded, he could’ve had an even better year and finished even higher.
Furthermore though, in 1999 he hit .310 with 30+ HR and 100+ RBI, while being an all star for Tampa. He was 36. So tell me again how he didn’t have Star years after 30?
stormie
A 119 OPS+ is hardly “limp” for a guy’s age 31-40 seasons, especially when that figure is being further skewed by a bunch of roided-up monsters.
baseballhobo
I’d rather have Barry Bonds than two Fred McGriffs.
GarryHarris
Do you want to hear Barry Bonds on any podium?
JayRyder
Roids. I don’t care. This guy is Not an HOFer.
Oldschoolandthemets1980
Congrats to The Crimedog well overdue.
GarryHarris
Even more than MVP, Cy Young and Gold Glove awards, HOF needs to be removed from sportswriters or have much better controls. If the commissioner gets to say who is eligible, he can put some better controls on sportswriters’ personal preferences and outright incompetence. Harold Baines, Alan Trammell and Jack Morris are in the HOF. I see no technical reason why these players below are left out:
Curt Schilling
Billy Wagner
Tommy John
Jean Matrac
Tommy John is renown for being the first guy to have the surgery named for him. But beyond that he was a good, and sometimes very good pitcher, that was never great. No way does he belong in the HoF unless you think the surgery is grounds for induction.
Finishing 2nd in the CY voting, his greatest achievement, is not enough. He had a career 111 ERA+ tying him for 333rd place all-time (Jered Weaver and Gio Gonzalez also have a career 111 ERA+). Even in his prime years with the WSox and Dodgers, up until the surgery, his ERA+ was only 119. Had he retired then it wouls have been 116 tied for 202nd all-time That’s not nearly close to HoF standards. The only time he led the league in anything was when he gave up the most hits in 1983.
Jean Matrac
*finishing 2nd twice in the CY voting…
GarryHarris
So many players in the HOF have none of the reward listed either. Awards are subjective and often undeserving. For instance, Don Sutton didn’t get a single vote for ROY in 1966 but today would likely have been voted in unanimously.
Tommy John had 288 Wins and his successful recovery from surgery absolutely influence baseball forever after. You wouldn’t vote him and I would.
Oldschoolandthemets1980
Off the subject A bit even though it does have to do with the Hall of fame. But I am curious to what everyone’s thoughts as a lot of names have been brought up as should be or could have been in the HoF. My player of choice in question is David cone ,I would love to hear everyones opinions as we all have one. I myself feel that yes he belongs. Appreciate and look forward to your opinions.
brewsingblue82
Mine has been McGriff for YEARS. So now I’ll have to pick someone else.
outinleftfield
Congrats Crime Dog. Well deserved and about time.
Jake1972
Wrong Dale Murphy is linked to the Baseball Statistics link.
miltpappas
McGriff deserves it! Congratulations to him! And, once again, Schilling gets screwed due to his political beliefs. Another win for the wokes.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Very happy The Crime Dog finally got what he’s deserved all along. Dangerous hitter and a solid citizen. Congrats, Fred.
Next, I want to see Al Oliver and Bobby Abreu get into the HOF. Two of the best pure hitters I ever saw.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
“Keeping Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod out of the baseball HOF would be like keeping Bernie Madoff, Elizabeth Holmes and SBF out of the Investor’s HOF!!!
Madoff was GOAT and while Holmes and SBF had short careers, they had STRONG peaks!!!”
What these people sound like…
phantomofdb
No it would be like keeping Tom Brady out of the hall for deflategate and stolen practice footage, and Jerry rice out for admitting to using sticky gloves
66TheNumberOfTheBest
If only Bonds, Clemens and A Rod had had the branding wisdom to call it Avocado Ice Cream and start a whole front company, eh?
Best Screenname Ever
I remember internet posters saying the Players’ Committee was going to install Bonds and Clemens in the Hall. The people they cheated against were going to install them. That always stood out to me as a prime indicator of someone who didn’t know what they were talking about.
Congrats to McGriff. Deserved.
Macho King OG
Congrats to McGriff! I hope Donnie Baseball gets in next year!
uvmfiji
Smoltz is in, Schilling needs to be in.
Chris2215
Legit question here, just wondering everyones opinion. Does Jim Edmonds belong in the Hall of Fame?? I am a huge Edmonds fan, Edmonds the player, not Edmonds the commentator….. LoL!! I feel like their is a strong case for Jimmy Ballgame BUT, I can also see the argument against. What say y’all???
rolafaive
Just maybe it is about time the fans get a say in who gets in, the powers that be who seem to be stuck in some kind of time warp as to their own idea of Hall of Famers and their strict rules based solely on their own beliefs has to change, PED’s were once prevalent in every locker room, on line betting and such is everywhere and the lifetime bans or punishment is too harsh for some of these infractions, just because you don’t like someone, should not determine your vote, I always thought the stats were the factor and the players accomplishments, Andy Petit will get in and he was a PED user only he admitted it.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
Not a Braves fan, but I always admired his consistent excellence and professionalism. It’s about time he gets into the Hall. Corrects one of the voters’ biggest failings.
Lyman Bostock
Kenny Lofton is currently the biggest snub. Perhaps the second or third best lead off hitter of all time. 62 career WAR. He was a better and more impactful player than Fred McGriff hands down.
RockinRobin
Add Lou Whitaker to that list list, in my opinion.
Lyman Bostock
75 career WAR is hard to argue against. Is that highest WAR of all HOF snubs that didn’t cheat? It has to be.
andym-2
Congrats to the Crime Dog, but I’m over the Hall of Fame’s stance that they’d rather exclude great players than tell difficult stories. Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Barry Bonds are all legendary baseball players. But history isn’t always easy. A museum – of all places – should be able to tell the stories of celebration and struggle alike. … And in what world is Curt Schilling not a Hall of Famer? Shut up and pitch, huh? I don’t align with his POV, but come on…
Lyman Bostock
Funny thing about Rose is that he is part of the HOF. If you’ve been to the museum, they have exhibits of him there. They mention him as the hits king and acknowledge him. It’s just that he doesn’t have a plaque, so technically he doesn’t have that label as a HOF’er. But he’s def part of the museum. Bonds wasn’t legendary until he cheated. He disgraced the game and never admitted it or apologized for it. It was so egregious that the feds had to get involved. Then he committed perjury in court but was only convicted of obstruction of justice. Not to mention how his cheating now took away from judge having the HR record. It’s disgusting what Bonds did to baseball. He should not be honored in the museum. His actions have hurt the game very deeply.
jade 2
The thing about Rose that stands out is while he was betting on his Reds to win, the entire ownership of MLB was colluding to not sign any free agents from 1985-1987. Think about it. The owners all agreed to put finacial reward above improng their teams for 3+ years until they were taken to court, sued and lost. Not saying Rose was right or in anyway a decent human being, but the owners of MLB are probably more guilty of wrong doing than Pete Rose gambling on himself or Barry Bonds taking the clear. One set of guys were a-holes who were over competitive and would do anything to win. The others were insanely rich, powerful people who would destroy baseball to line their own pockets.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
nytimes.com/2013/01/09/sports/baseball/baseball-ha…
FredMcGriff for the HOF
I understand many of you despise Schilling for his character but take a few minutes to read the article I posted above this comment. Schilling is more than deserving based on his MLB numbers and of course post season heroics. There are already far worse character players long ago inducted into the HOF. Some of these guys make Curt look like a saint. At least he was never tied to being a cheater which to me is huge.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@lyman. I agree 100% that Lofton is a HOF player. Compare his number to Tim (Rock) Raines and they are quite similar. It’s shameful the BBWAA couldn’t muster up enough support for him to make it off the 1st year of eligibility for the ballot. I am hopeful the committees get it right someday. In my opinion all the committees should be 100% inducted HOF players. Those guys know what it took to be elite more than writers and executives.
citizen
I liked the Mcgriff 1b aquisition by the braves though he sub planted Sid Bream.
He was elected or inducted into the Hall? Isnt the ceremony in August?
McGriff was stuck on 490 Hrs and signed with the Devil Rays. I guess he thought getting to 500hr was the milestone of the Halle.
.
Citizen, it is truly hard to fathom that 7 Homers kept the man from getting in much earlier. I still can’t wrap my head around it. But yeah I think that was pretty much the case.
Eatdust666
It’s about time that he got into the Hall of Fame, but he really should’ve made it years ago.
martras
Crazy that it took so long for McGriff to be enshrined. The strange opinion McGriff was never dominant makes no sense. This year, the OPS+ cutoff for top 10 in baseball was 147. McGriff had 7 seasons at or above that figure. McGriff didn’t typically have the stats of the absolute best hitter in all of baseball, but he was time and time again top 10 and he was one of the most respected power hitters without the taint of PED suspicion.
Talking about the guy who is
Top 30 in home runs.
Top 50 in RBI.
Top 100 in career batting (HoF Standards Leaders)
Top 125 in Adjusted OPS+ despite him playing to age 40
The arguments to keep McGriff out don’t hold water, even for a small hall guy.
Giants78
McGriff belongs in the HOF. So do many others, including Will “The Thrill” Clark.
.
And Helton.
cards1985
About time.